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The Heart & Hustle Podcast
451: Is the Client REALLY Always Right? Building a Compassion Led Client Experience with Noelle of The Artist Edit
01:01:29
On this week’s episode of The Heart & Hustle Podcast, we’re sitting down with Noelle — powerhouse bridal beauty entrepreneur, content creator, and co-owner of a thriving St. Louis makeup studio. From a viral TikTok video to leading a...
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- [00:01]
A
You're listening to the Heart and Hustle podcast. We are your hosts, Evie McLeod and Lindsay Roman. Today is a powerful episode all about creating a client first, compassion based client experience. And oh my gosh, it is so incredible. I want to clarify, we are talking to a hair and makeup artist, a bridal stylist, specifically all of our service providers. Listen, listen to this episode. Yes, this is, you just need to hear this.
- [00:32]
B
And then especially if you are in the hair and makeup artist industry, obviously listen to it.
- [00:37]
A
But yes, we had an incredible time chatting with a wonderful Noelle. Noelle is a St. Louis based bridal hairstylist and the co owner of the artist edits in St. Louis. Known for her calming presence and timeless styling, Noelle specializes in creating effortlessly elegant looks that make brides feel like the most confident version of themselves. With years of industry experience and a heart for connection, she brings both professionalism and warmth to every wedding day.
- [01:05]
B
So today we dived in with Noelle all about, like Evie said, creating a compassion led client experience, especially in an industry where a lot of us service providers are artists in our own right. And we really touched on the conversation of how much should you be an artist and kind of communicate like, like this is the art that I do and this is what I, I'm the expert at this. And then how much of that should be customizing your art to the actual client. And especially we talked about the wedding industry a lot because the fact of the matter is wedding industry vendors, like we are dealing with, you know, somebody's once in a lifetime moment and their day and so often like, yes, we are artists, but it's also how can you still be an art and do excellence in your job and be known for that thing, but also be client led and be compassionate to what their needs are? And especially from Noelle's perspective as a hair and makeup artist, dealing specifically with somebody's visual like identity in a way which not every single service provider maybe deals that directly with somebody's self image. But Noelle's take on this topic was so compassion led and she just had such incredible thoughts to share on this topic and especially if you are in the hair and makeup artist industry. She gave so many practical tips that I even think could translate even if you're not in that industry specifically, but could translate to just how to serve a client and be an incredible service provider that is client led and is compassion led while still not, you know, like bending over backward and being a.
- [02:53]
A
Slave to the doormat that's being walked all over.
- [02:55]
B
That's a great way to describe it. And she just balances conversation so well. There's so much goodness in this episode. So let's stop talking and let's let no Noelle onto the show. Hey you. Yes, you. Listening to this podcast, do you feel like you've lost all passion, motivation and creativity? If your hand is raised high to the sky, it sounds like you might be struggling with a little thing we like to call burnout. And let me just tell you, you are not alone in that struggle. We've both struggled hard with burnout in the past couple of years, pushing ourselves beyond our boundaries without any time to rest.
- [03:27]
A
Yeah, let me tell you, it is not fun. Over the last year, we've been diligent in setting up boundaries to combat burnout. And let me tell you, we have learned a thing. Or if you've been here for a while, you know we are all about sharing the love and helpful info at the Heart University. That is why we want to share our tools and strategies to help you.
- [03:44]
C
Deal with feeling completely depleted.
- [03:46]
A
Because as business owners, we are all at risk of burnout. So if you're on the edge and needing help prioritizing, rest in your schedule. Look no further. We have a freebie ready for you to download and implement into your life. Snag it@theheartuniversity.com burnout.
- [04:09]
C
Hey. Hey.
- [04:09]
B
I'm Lindsay Roman.
- [04:10]
A
And I'm Evie McLeod. And we are family and legacy focused serial entrepreneurs and the founders of the Hart University, a business education company with a mission to help you thrive in your business and life.
- [04:21]
B
Welcome to our entrepreneur cocktail hour where business and marketing strategies meet faith, real talk and raw in life changing conversations.
- [04:28]
A
At the end of the day, we are all in this together, figuring out how to navigate the ups and downs, the messy and the beautiful and everything in between. This is a community where you can come as you are, get inspired and walk away equipped to build a legacy filled life.
- [04:42]
B
You're listening to the Heart and Hustle podcast.
- [04:50]
C
Perfect.
- [04:50]
B
Perfect. All right, let's get into it. Noelle, welcome to the Heart and Hustle podcast. Can you introduce. I said that really weird. Introduce yourself to our listeners. Share who you are, what you do, all the good stuff. I was about to say juice, but that didn't make any sense.
- [05:06]
C
Yes, my name is Noelle. I am a hair and makeup artist here in St. Louis, Missouri. I co own a makeup studio with my friend Joy. I kind of got my start on social media. I had a TikTok video blow up and that kind of started my social media career. So I Also do content creation. We lead a team of 12 hair and makeup artists and we specialize in bridal beauty. Amazing.
- [05:31]
B
You're a boss. Wait, what was the. What was the real or not the real the TikTok that blew up?
- [05:36]
C
It was the three things you're doing if you're not getting flawless foundation. And it was just like how to apply your foundation correctly. And it was something that to kind of go back. Joy has my partner, she has been doing makeup for like 13 years. And so she fully mentored me, trained me. And after my first lesson with her, the things that like blew my mind were the things I put in that video. And I think it just did the same thing for everyone else. Like, wow, those are just three easy things that completely change people's life. Like just little to techniques.
- [06:08]
A
So I gotta go.
- [06:09]
C
I gotta go watch it.
- [06:10]
B
I'm like, is it pinned on your TikTok?
- [06:13]
C
It was. But this is what I'll say is now that I've been doing it for a while, it's really hard for me to go back and watch old videos of myself. Cuz like, in the beginning of this, I feel like there was a little bit of insecurity of being on the Internet and being seen, being perceived. And I had like a big filter on my face and I'm teaching people how to put on flawless makeup and I'm wearing a filter part of it all. Like, I hate seeing that. Um, but yeah, it's on there. It's just you got to really scroll. Okay, we'll scroll.
- [06:41]
A
We need all the tips.
- [06:42]
B
Well, also, I feel like you have such bingeboat content since then, but I guess I feel like this perfectly segues into kind of today's topic of like sharing online and being a presence. And I guess the majority of this conversation is focused around a vendor or I guess that's a wedding industry term. But like even any service provider that is marketing your business and working with clientele and then, and then sharing, you know, whatever experience on the Internet. I feel like we're gonna get into creating a really great luxury client experience and how to balance. I feel like we were talking about it really great before we started hitting record. Like, how would you summarize the essence of what? Like, like the heart of.
- [07:29]
A
Of compassion. Focus, Experience.
- [07:32]
B
Yes, that, that, that.
- [07:35]
C
Yeah.
- [07:35]
A
Noel, you have just. We've just from chit chatting like before this episode and just different things. You have an incredible perspective on building a compassion focused client experience. Can you kind of unpack? Like, why is that something you're Passionate about. What does that even mean? Like, what's the definition of, like, compassion? Focused experience, you know, all of that. Like, what? Unpack it all for us.
- [07:59]
C
So I will say Joy, my business partner and mentor, has had a huge impact on my career and the way that I run my business. Because just a little backstory is I started my makeup career probably three or four times, and then I gave up because it's a hard industry to tap into. And the moment I met her, I took two lessons, and she hired me, and we had a team together. And so this is really her information that she kind of instilled in me that now I'm really passionate about. So a lot of these are her beliefs that she kind of taught me. But essentially, the client, to me is 100% the only reason you're even there. The reason I couldn't continue my career and all the times I failed was because I couldn't build the clientele. And I'm like, what is missing? And Joy actually calls it the client experience or the client journey. From the moment you inquire with us, you're immediately greeted with a certain type of language. We're very kind. We're very caring, exclamation marks. Anything we can help you with, links to things that you might have questions about. Like, a lot of our clients will sit in our chair. We'll do their makeup, and even though it's not a lesson, we'll send them a full product list of what we use. We'll let them take pictures of things we teach them, the brushes we use. While we're working, we're explaining. So I think really just watching Joy build relationships with these people, like, her entire business was word of mouth. And I think every time someone got out of her chair, I could feel that they were like, oh, I'm her friend. She likes me. She wants me to come back. And then our brides, we follow them on Instagram, and then they come in for their maternity photos, and then they come in for their family photos. And then, you know, like, we just get to see the whole experience from start to finish. And I just don't think any of our clients feel like they're just a dollar sign to us. And I think that to me, watching her embody, that made me really passionate about it. And then when I got into artist education, I saw how many artists lacked that, and it almost was hard to watch. And Joy kind of says, like, I'm spoiled because that she was my first artist experience, like, working alongside her, and she just Always treated people that way. And then when we would do some weddings with other artists, I'm like, that was so rude. Like, the client wants to change the lash and the artist makes the client feel so bad about it. Like, well, this one looks good. You don't need that. And I would like, freeze. Like, did they really just say that to the client? And Joy was like, that's the norm. That's how most makeup artists treat their clients. It's. They're the artist, they say what goes. They're the professional. It's not about the client. And I'm like, that's just so wrong to me. Like, I just don't like, you're not. That person's not going to come back. You can't build a business that way. Yeah.
- [10:39]
A
I think it's so interesting that you, you say that because I feel like, and this isn't even necessarily about the interaction, but I, I bet I can almost guarantee, like, I'm trying to self assess the instances where I have had my hair and makeup professionally done as, you know, a bridesmaid in a wedding or whatever. I feel like it is such a common through line that most people do not like their hair and makeup professionally done for whatever reason. And I have always just viewed that from the perspective of, well, yeah, of course they're gonna do your makeup totally different than you would. So it's going to feel different. Like, I've just always viewed it as like a practical. Like, oh, it's just because it's different.
- [11:27]
B
Like it's elevated from what you would be able to do yourself or just.
- [11:30]
A
Even, or just even different. Like you, you wouldn't normally, you know, you're going, you're a bridesmaid in a wedding and you wouldn't normally wear, you know, that much. I don't know, eye makeup. Like, you wouldn't normally wear an eyeliner, but you do on the wedding day. I've always just looked at it practically. But as you're talking Nicole, I'm like, or no, Nicole Noel. There's a, there's a part of me that's like, I. Is there an element of the way that you are treated in the.
- [11:58]
B
The chair affects how you feel about it?
- [12:01]
A
Yeah. I don't know, Noelle.
- [12:03]
C
I won't lie. Toss that into your life. So my, my perspective here is always thinking about if I were the client. I personally am a very picky client. If you have done my nails, my hair, my makeup, my spray tan, I'm very picky. I like what I like and I That's I. What? I like it that way. And I think about if I were getting my makeup done. Like I said, There's 12 of us on the team. And I will say, out of our seven master artists, all of them have done my makeup. I think we are. I'm a little biased, but I think we are the most talented artists in St. Louis. I've never once sat in any of my artist's chairs and not asked them to change something. Not because they're not talented, but that's not how I wear my eyeliner. That's not the kind of lash I like to wear. And I think a lot of artists will like if we stereotype the artist's personality. We're a little emotional. We're really attached to our art. We feel things deeply, and that's just a blanket statement. That's not necessarily true all the time. But we're so connected to our art that we get this automatic. What do you mean, you don't like it? I just spent an hour on that. It's like there's this offense that you get, and you don't think about the fact that people have what we call makeup habits. Habits, which is why a lot of people don't like to do the mother of the bride. Right. Because their makeup habits are not 20 years of doing the same makeup, 50 years of doing the same makeup.
- [13:25]
A
That's so true.
- [13:26]
C
It's much harder to do makeup on a client who has deeply ingrained habits, and it's not necessarily harder if you're trained on how to handle it. So from the get, before I even touch my client's face, what I always say is, I mean, I have a huge client consultation that I go through, but I always end it with the full plan of what we've discussed, of what I'm doing. And I say, if there's anything you want to edit, our team is called the artist edit. So that's my little play on words. If there's anything you want to edit, this is your face, and I want you to feel beautiful. So we'll go ahead and we'll sit in the mirror together, and we'll fix any little thing that doesn't feel like you. And in that moment, if my client stands up and has something they want to change, they don't feel like I'm going to hurt her feelings. Oh, she told me if I didn't like this lash, we can switch it.
- [14:12]
B
And you give them that permission.
- [14:14]
C
Yes, absolutely. And our customer journey, which I don't necessarily have to Take you through the whole thing because it's pretty detailed. But we always say that our consultation is so in depth. Like, we'll say something along the lines of, hey, this photo you showed me looks like they have peach blush. But the photo you showed me of how you do your makeup has pink blush. Which one would you rather do? And the client will say something like, you know, I do usually wear pink, but let's try peach. And then at the end, I'm like, okay, we decided on peach blush, even though you're not normally used. So doing that, are you good at that? They say, yes. We call that the insurance policy. So then at the end, if they're like, hey, I know I said peach, but I just don't feel like myself without the pink. Right?
- [14:52]
A
Yeah.
- [14:52]
C
Now that's not our fault. They're not saying, I don't like your work. They're saying, I did say I want to try something new, but I actually don't like that. Can we switch it? So it's just a positive interaction from the beginning. There's no offense taken. It's 100%. We want you to feel beautiful, and we'll do anything we have to do to get you there.
- [15:10]
A
I love that. I think that eliminates the feeling of. Of like, I don't know, it. It removes the personal, like, emotional aspect for both of you guys, like your. Your client and you as the artist, because you've already. You've communicated with them. You've also given them permission of, like, if there's anything you don't like, let's change it. And then they can also be like, hey, I know I said this, which, like, you said, like, pulls out that personal, like, aspect for. And allows you to be like, yep, I thought that might happen. No worries.
- [15:44]
C
Let's change. Let's change it. Absolutely. I love it.
- [15:47]
B
I'm wondering if this is fascinating to hear from your perspective, because I feel like hair and makeup is. Is obviously a different artist or a different artistry than photography, but it's like both industries are art in a. In a form.
- [16:04]
C
Right.
- [16:05]
B
Very different form. But you deal and, well, even photos, to an extent, you deal with, like, people's confidence in themselves or, yeah, self image. And obviously there's an element of that in photos because you're taking a reflection of what someone looks like. And so there is that. But I almost feel like in the photo industry, there's just like this. This thread of, like, if you don't like my style, if you don't like my edit, then don't hire me kind of thing. And. And it's almost like the conversation piece of, like, the client is always right is a little bit. It's more like, no, this is my art kind of thing a little bit. And I'm curious how that works for you when you're dealing with something that's so reflective of how someone views themselves and how somebody feels about their self image in the moment when you're done. Because it is. It's like their image that makes sense.
- [17:02]
C
That's a really sensitive thing. And making people feel beautiful is, like, the most perfect part of our job. Like, that's why we do what we do. But I think people don't realize the weight of it sometimes, and I think it takes the feelings and the hurt out of it when you don't look at it so much as your art. Like, I made the comparison of, we're not just creative artists, we're commissioned artists. You're telling us what to paint. We don't have full freedom. And when I say the bridal beauty industry is. I don't want to say harder, but a different ball game. You lose a little bit of your creative freedom, and that's really hard for an artist. So think about a bridal makeup artist is like an artist caged in. It's like, we don't really get to free fly. Like, our team, we have creative days once a month where we call in a model and we just play because we don't get to do that. We get to do what clients want. And while I love that I'm an artist who. I always say there's fluid artists and there's mathematical artists, I'm mathematical. So I actually really like the do what my clients tell me. But half of our team is really fluid, so they get really. Well, I know this would look better if I did this, you know, and that's just not what it's about. So we kind of have to rein that in. And I think every artist, too, has, like, a signature look. Like, when I think about the type of makeup I like to do, it's a very specific type of makeup. We have a scale called a 1, 2, 3 scale. So there's a level 1 makeup, a level 2 makeup, and a level 3 makeup. Level 2 is my absolute favorite. If I could do a level two on everyone who sat in my chair, I would be so happy. However, I know that's not realistic. And while I love that and that's what I post, because I try to attract clients who want that. I only get to do that kind of makeup, maybe 50% of the time, that's not something that I get to run with. And I've actually made a few videos about this and upset a lot of artists because I think it's a common thought of, well, if, you know, that's not the kind of makeup dude, don't. Don't hire me. And I'm like, how crazy to miss out. I would miss out on 50% of my clients. I would cut my income in half. I would get to do half of the brides that I do. And, you know, I. I, as an artist, don't want to do that. I've connected with a lot of brides who. I don't necessarily like their makeup style, but I love them, and I want to make them feel beautiful. Yeah. I just don't think that a lot of artists look at it that way. It's like, this is my art. This is what I'm gonna do. This will make you look the best. And I just don't believe in that.
- [19:23]
B
It's almost like the difference between, like. Like, subjective or not subjective, objective beauty, and then, like, custom beauty on what someone views as beautiful on themselves or.
- [19:36]
C
Yeah, like.
- [19:37]
B
Like, there could be a difference on, like, what I think is beautiful on myself versus what is maybe arguably objectively beautiful other people.
- [19:44]
C
I think that's a hard thing to do, you know? Yeah, we all think differently.
- [19:49]
A
I'm thinking of it as interior design, like a totally different industry, but it's a very similar concept in the sense that just because you might not design your home with a specific style does not mean that you won't serve the client who loves the way that your. Your brain, you know, processes information and beauty and, you know, thinks through a space and whatever. And you're not going to serve them and help them by curating, you know, the most beautiful home for them. That may not be your personal style. And obviously, I think there is some nuance. I'm curious, Noelle, if you feel the same. I think there is some nuance in the sense that if you are an artist or an interior designer or whoever who does not have a skill set that a client is looking for, then I think that's a different conversation of, like, hey, I actually can't help you reach your ultimate goal, which is going to serve neither of us well. But if it's the situation where it's like, hey, just because it's not my personal style, and maybe it brings me just, like, you know, 10% less, like, absolute overflowing, just joy Doing it because it may not match perfectly my perfect, like, personal style does not mean that I don't know how to deliver an incredible experience and an incredible result for you and make you feel beautiful and you feel happy, which is my ultimate goal. Like, what are. What are your thoughts on that?
- [21:16]
C
When I say I've upset a couple artists posting about this, it's because I made a video referencing this and I said something along the lines of, there's a difference in this is my signature style, and it's the only work I want to do. And I actually don't know how to do anything else. And I think that's a conversation that some artists don't want to have. And I get it. Like, if I had decided to myself, this is the only kind of makeup that makes me happy. I don't enjoy doing soft glam. I don't enjoy doing full glam. I only enjoy doing no makeup makeup or whatever. Like, if that's the only kind of clientele you want, just know you're only going to be able to service a tiny little, you know, section of the market. Like, I saw an artist post on her story, a screenshot of an email that she sent a bride, and I guess in her questionnaire, it had, like, send in inspo photos, and this specific artist does. I would say, I don't know if I would consider it soft glam, but it's very natural makeup. And the bride had sent in a bunch of, like, fully AI edited, you know, full glam. And the artist responded and was like, unfortunately, it looks like you're looking for full glam makeup, and that's not a service that makes me happy, so I can't service you. And I remember reading that, thinking, how wild that you're just gonna say, I don't wanna do that. Like, I'm available. I could, but I don't want to because I'm not invested in my skillset. Like, I think about. I compared this the other day being a chef and being like, well, I actually only cook Italian. Are you really a chef if you can only cook Italian food? You know, like, that might make you the most happy. You might like that food the most. But how can we call ourselves makeup artists if we can't do every skin tone, if we can't do every type of makeup? Like, if you're at a point in your career where you only want to accept a certain amount of clients, I think that's fine. But I just think as an artist, you should know at least know to do everything. Like, I just took a lesson in April with an artist who does, like, bold colored looks. And my clients are brides. They're not. Not asking me for a hot pink glitter, but I was thinking, like, if someone sits in my chair and asks me for that, I might panic, you know, And I don't ever want someone to sit in my chair and me be like, I can't do that. That's a personal thing. I don't ever want to say I can't do something. I'll always try.
- [23:31]
B
But you're, like, always growing in your skill set, which I think, as any artist should be eager to, like, continue to learn and continue to grow in your skillset, even if it's not, you know, like, the thing that you maybe do the most. Yeah, I guess that, like, my thought is, like, when you get inquiries from brides and. And maybe this industry is a little bit different because it's like you get the inquiry from the bride probably, but then you're still dealing with people that are not the bride by default.
- [24:00]
C
Yeah.
- [24:02]
B
Are they? Do you get a sense when people inquire, like, are. And I can't even remember acting like I got married so long. It's almost. It's been nine years, so it's kind of actually been a long time. But I, like, I don't even remember how, like, what parameters I was looking for when I was, like, trying to find my hair and makeup artist. Maybe you got married more recently so you would maybe remember. I don't know.
- [24:22]
A
But, like, yeah, I had a very clear vision.
- [24:25]
B
I'm like, when. When people are looking at inspo photos, are they looking for photos of, like, the style that they would like or just like, variety? Like, what. What are your thoughts on that? Of, like, what brides are looking for in. In the style and maybe diversity of just like, can you do what I'm wanting, things like that.
- [24:46]
C
I think because we service every kind of bride. Like, we had a bride last week who wanted a teal wing. Like, that's not a normal bridal look. Right. But if you sit in our chair, we can do it because we can do anything. And I think trying to think about what brides typically want, Like I said, we service everybody. So every, like three or four years too, I think the bridal trends kind of change. Like when I first got into makeup, this was like 2017, 2018. Like, we were doing the buttercut creases, the black dip brows, we were doing all of that. And then it kind of got to the Hailey Bieber, the clean Girl, the no makeup makeup. And now 2016 is kind of coming back, but we're elevating it. We're kind of mixing those styles. So I think most of the time brides don't know what they want. And I think that's okay because as, as a vendor, I've done this 700 times. You've sat in my chair once. So for me to think that you are just going to sit down and know exactly what you want without even seeing it on yourself, I think is outlandish. Which is why we have like when I do a bridal trial, I set aside three hours. It should not take me three hours to do anything. But the consultation takes up like a good 45 minutes. We're going through all their inspo. We're breaking down every single part of that face. We're breaking down the model's features, we're breaking down the last time they had their makeup done or breaking down how they normally do their makeup. We're going through their current makeup routine, we're going through their skin type, all of these things to get there. And I think it's our job to help them get there. And it's not compassionate to assume that they should know what they want because if they did, a lot of times they do their own, which I also commend. I love when brides do their own makeup. If you know that you're only going to like what you do, do it.
- [26:30]
A
Yeah.
- [26:32]
B
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C
Is that just me?
- [26:52]
B
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A
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- [29:28]
A
I think that's so good. And it's so true, too, of like, hey, how many times has that client experienced getting their hair and makeup professionally done for a bridal look? Even specifically that it's like, probably zero times before. Like, this is like their first time. And for you to come at it with that, that compassion, that understanding of, hey, I can. And I think comes down to I can set aside my ego and my. It's not about me. Even though, you know, yes, I am a business owner and I'm not. I don't think you're saying this either, Noel, of, like, we're not advocating for you to become a do that anybody can just stomp all over. We're not saying that at all. But it's understanding, like, especially in the industry where you are a service provider with something as like, personal as, you know, your, your makeup on your wedding day, it's like, this isn't about me and I'm here to serve you. I think that is a game changer that I truly. If every single bride had an experience with an artist like that, who approached them like that, I wonder how that would affect how they felt about themselves their entire wedding day, which is crazy to think about.
- [30:55]
C
When your wedding is over, this is what you have left. Your photos and your man. So you better love him and you better look at those pictures because that's all. Everything else is gone. You know, the flowers are dead, your friends went home. Nobody cares about anything else. So like I said, if you don't love the photos, yeah, that's, that's the problem. Right? We. It doesn't matter if I love them. If you don't like the way you look, yeah, it's irrelevant.
- [31:17]
A
That's so true. Okay, I'm, I'm curious. What would you say, Noel, to I guess the, the artist who is like listening to this and feeling, oh, my gosh, I love this, I feel inspired. I love the, the thought of really shifting to how can I serve and like, go above and beyond for my clients and create this experience? I know you touched on, you know, the consultation or not consultation? Well, kind of the, the trial and. Yeah, and like having a detailed questionnaire and like, sounds like onboarding process and giving them the opportunity to say that they don't like something, we'll totally change it. Like, you've, you've mentioned things throughout, but is there anything just like for the artist who is listening to this specifically, who's like, I want to create a very client, first client experience. Do you have thoughts, tips, ideas for them?
- [32:13]
C
So for me, it was. I got, like I said, I got lucky with Joy. So my first artist interaction was with an artist who loved and cared about her clients. So I think the standard was set for me so quickly and I was able to be mentored and look up to someone who treats their clients in that way. And ever since then, that's been my goal to be that for people specifically baby artists, because like I said, there's so many talented artists that you can learn from, so many tutorials, so many master classes. But Nobody is teaching that. And I think it was, it was fascinating. After I taught my first in person masterclass, someone reached out to Joy actually and said, you know, I was at Noel's class and when you guys were talking about the customer journey and the customer consultation and all of those things, I realized I don't want to create art for other people. I don't have the compassion for this industry. So now I'm going to do a different job. And I think even just hearing and being self aware enough to like, can I put my desires to the side to please a client, like answer that so honestly, is that something that lives inside me? Can I do that? And I think if the answer is no, you gotta go into a different avenue of the beauty industry, especially not bridal. That's like the one you should run the furthest from. And I think that would be the first step is just, you know, seeking out artists that you feel like have more than just talent. They have a booming business, they have a returning clientele, they build relationships, they're inspired and they cheer on other artists, they work on a team. So usually people who work on teams are a little more, you know, willing to share and grow and they're not as just focused on themselves. So I would say finding someone you can look up to like that in the industry and then also asking yourself that question is, is that something that, is that a quality I already possess and if it's not, what else can I do in the beauty industry that doesn't require me to do that?
- [34:09]
B
That's so good. That's incredible. Well, especially I, I feel like we're, we're dancing around it a little bit. But like the, the wedding industry specifically because you mentioned like going to a different industry in the beauty industry if you're wanting to do more of the artistic, like this is my vision and all the things because I think and this is just for all wedding. Cause most wedding vendors aren't artists in their own right. But it's like I think we so quickly forget that this is a once in a lifetime event. It will not happen again. And like this is something that, I mean ideally people will have albums of to look back on for the rest of their life and it's prioritizing like the giving them that experience so that there isn't, you said this earlier but like there isn't a bad taste in their mouth for any specific thing on a day that should not be about any of those particular artistic elements that make it up. It should be about like the Sanctity and the beauty and like the, the commitment that they're making to each other and you know, the, the party and the joy. Yeah. That they're having with their friends and family. And it's like we as vendors are here to like, serve them and add beauty to their day in whatever way, you know, that we're personally doing. But I think so often, because so many wedding vendors are artists, like you could like florists, even the dj, like, there's like, there's like art. Art in that element of it. And it's like, I think there is a piece of conversation of like, okay, well, like, yes, maybe the bride should choose an artist or a vendor that aligns with what she wants. But also at the end of the day, I think if you're going into the wedding industry, there is an element of service that is unlike other types of industries because you are serving a very specific and sacred day. And I think people forget that, like in our own ego.
- [36:09]
C
And I don't mean to stereotype people who work in the wedding industry, but when I think about a lot of people who do, because it's the weekends, it can be your like side gig, it can be your side hustle. It doesn't have to be your fully committed career. It can be your quick, easy weekend money. Right. And I see that a lot with makeup artistry is they might work a full through Friday, 9 to 5, and then they're working Saturday, Sunday weddings. And of course they're burnt out, they're exhausted. And guess what? Because they're working Monday to Friday, they don't have any time to invest in their craft. So then their skills are kind of lacking and then their patience is lacking because they've got two full time jobs and they don't fully devote their time and energy into their, their side hustle. And I think when you're dealing with someone's wedding, the weight of that is so important. So to look at it as a side hustle is like even just that word kind of triggers me a little bit. And people are like, oh, this is a side hustle. I'm like, be all in or get out, like that. And that's a personal thing I probably need to work on because I am so passionate about it. Because I get that these things can be, you know, other. They can be your side hustle, they can, you can make it work. But I do think it's hard to give it that level of care and quality when you're not fully invested in it.
- [37:24]
B
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
- [37:25]
A
I think I feel like the. To correctly summarize what I think you actually mean when you say that is, like, actually invest in Karen about this or.
- [37:36]
B
Or get out. Yeah.
- [37:38]
C
Yeah. Because I. I think there are people who can juggle multiple. I mean, I've worked multiple jobs several times in my life, but I will say in those times, I was not able to give myself fully to any of them, you know? And, like, I think even, like, if I did do this as a side hustle, I would think about limiting how many brides a year I take so that I can maintain quality versus just saying yes to everything and not giving my full service. Or, like, I think about. I see a lot of artists do this. They'll make schedules where they're doing 12 bridesmaids. There's no way you can do 12 bridesmaids. You're just trying to make that money, you know? And then, of course, you know, that the client had to get up and go to the bathroom or that they changed their mind because you didn't adequately plan for a quality service to be given.
- [38:21]
B
Which is a whole other thing. Like, just like budgeting in time, like.
- [38:26]
A
The schedule of a wedding day to.
- [38:27]
B
Give a good client experience to every single. And not even just the bride, but like the bridesmaid and every single person, because you're still, you know, doing their makeup and their hair and just reflecting, like, their beauty to them on a day, even if it's not a day about them. I guess. I have a question. Do you ever have a time where or did you ever experience a time. And I'm sure you have. Have many stories where your subject, whether it was the bride or. I feel like this maybe would happen more with the bride because there's more probably emotional weight than a bridesmaid. Like, if my. If I didn't like my hair and makeup on it, I'm a bridesmaid, I could get over it.
- [39:00]
A
I was going to say the amount of times actually that I have been a bridesmaid and really not liked my. My hair and makeup and been like, whatever.
- [39:06]
B
Yeah. So maybe it's more of a bride situation.
- [39:09]
C
It's not my day. That's what I mean. Yeah. Literally.
- [39:11]
A
Right.
- [39:12]
B
But do you have a story or a moment where the subject, probably the bride got emotional or was like, visibly upset at. You know, And. And I feel like sometimes that can come just from internal feelings about self image and. And. And that. But that it's bringing up basically when you're done with their makeup or you're doing it, do you did you have a situation where they're either breaking down or just having an emotional moment and how did you handle it? Especially when you're dealing with something that's so self image heavy.
- [39:44]
C
So I think specifically for brides, that's actually never happened to me. Only because we put all of the things in place to where it won't happen because we have a full detailed plan of post trial what we're gonna do. So it's actually much more common for it to happen to bridesmaids or mother of the brides.
- [40:02]
B
Oh, the irony that I led that whole thing.
- [40:05]
C
Yeah. Because I think there is this fighting emotion of it's not my day, I really shouldn't say anything. I didn't have a trial's. I didn't know what this was gonna look like with a bride. There's so much pre planning that I've never had an unsatisfied bride like even the one that I posted on TikTok about hating her trial. We did another trial. She loved it. Everything was fine. Wedding day was perfect and everything was good. So even in that scenario, that's why we don't make trials required. But they're really important because we work out all the kinks before we get there. But I feel like trying to think of an instance with a bridesmaid where they maybe didn't love something. I just really think that because we make it so comfortable to come to us to make changes, we all are pretty in tune with. Okay, she keeps looking in the mirror, she's not really loving this or that. And we always approach them with, hey, I noticed that you keep touching your lashes. Do they feel too big? Because if they do, we can switch them out right now. We don't really ever find ourselves in situations where a client's like fully breaking down because they hate it.
- [41:09]
B
Yeah.
- [41:10]
C
Because we set a really clear standard that like I will say there's a couple times when I've worked with other artists that maybe that artist has not set that standard. And they've come to me and been like, hey, I don't want to hurt so and so's feelings. Can we change this? And I think that's kind of a little bit of a sticky situation because you don't want to hurt the artist's feelings. But also the artist should have made the client feel comfortable enough to tell them that. But those are really the only like sticky situations I can think of because we do spend, I would say, one third of the application time talking about what the client wants.
- [41:44]
A
Yeah.
- [41:45]
C
We don't have a ton of those mix ups. Really?
- [41:48]
A
Yeah. I love it. I love. You briefly mentioned this, but you have a TikTok where you shared the scenario of a bride and her mom, Right? Yeah. Who had come in for a trial and left, and then later kind of reached back out, and they were. It. It seemed like they were really like. Like, scared.
- [42:11]
C
Yeah.
- [42:11]
A
Like, you. You can tell the story, but I think this is such a beautiful representation of you being like, no, no, no, no, no. This is about you. Like, how can I make you feel good? So I love this story. I feel like this beautifully represents you and your heart and your business and the business model that you've built. So can you, like, unpack that a little bit more?
- [42:30]
C
Yes, absolutely. So I had a bride who came in for her trial. It was her and her mom. They both were, like, big makeup lovers. So whenever you go through, like, our training or I'm almost done making my master class, but there's a whole section in there about different types of customers, and this customer fit under the category of makeup lover. They both were, like, super full, thick, black lash extensions. Like, we're talking about all these expensive makeup brands. So in my mind, I'm just instantly triggered to think they're makeup lovers. They love makeup. They want to want all of this makeup. So I think I got really excited in the client connection that I skipped over some steps of our client consultation and made some assumptions about what they wanted instead of diving deeply into what they wanted. They were literally the sweetest people, and I was just having so much fun with them that I think I just kind of, you know, glanced over that part. So I assumed, based on some things, that they wanted full glam, what we call level three. And obviously, a mom has more mature skin. That's something that doesn't typically support super heavy makeup. And then the daughter had some fine lines on her face that she was talking about not wanting emphasize after the fact. And again, fine lines don't really mix well with thick, heavy makeup. So those were things I should have taken into account. But instead of that, I just got excited and was like, they're gonna love it because it did photograph well, but it just felt heavy for them. They weren't comfortable in it. It was just way more than what they usually wear. Which one thing I sk over was I didn't ask what they normally wear. And then for the second trial, when I found out what they wore, it was Dior face and body, which is basically tinted water. And I put them in, like, A very thick, heavy foundation. So that's a big miss there.
- [44:12]
A
Yeah.
- [44:13]
C
So because we connected so much, I think that was a little bit of the hesitation as they didn't want to hurt my feelings, because then it felt like we were kind of friends. And also, come to find out, the bride had had her makeup done by another makeup artist here in St. Louis, Lewis, who was really mean and hateful to her when she wanted to change things. So I think she had been a little scarred already, so finding that out made a little bit more sense why she was so hesitant. Because, like I said, I feel pretty confident in my. If there's anything you want to change, like, let me know. And they're both like, no, we love it. You know, just because some clients do that. And I honestly, that was a big missed opportunity for me, because usually I can feel it when they say that. And I know that they don't really love it, but I felt like they did. So based on our conversation, based on their body language, I really. I did feel that way. And honestly, I think when they first looked in the mirror, they probably did. I think they didn't like the way it wore throughout the day. So I think that was something, too, that they were like, we didn't fully realize that we didn't like it until we left, you know, and we were in the sun, and we had worn it for eight hours and whatever. So I think that was another thing, too, which is, again, the point of trials. I tell all my brides this. Take a lot of selfies. Take some in the car, take some inside, Take some in the bathroom. Tell me how your makeup wore before you wash your face. Tonight, I give all my brides my phone number. I'm like, text me and give me a full breakdown of how everything wore. And then I'll make notes in your contact of every single thing you want to change. So, again, that was the perfect opportunity for her to tell me that same day, hey, it didn't wear great. It felt really heavy. I want to switch out this, this, and this. So even then in that scenario where it was uncomfortable, I still left the door open. Hey, text me tonight. Because I do think sometimes it's uncomfortable to look your artist in the face and be like, I actually hate it. Sometimes it's easier to send a text message. It was just a little heavy, you know? So I like to make that interaction also easier on them. So she did that. Her and her mom both sent me photos of how it wore, and it was settling and all their fine lines. It did look really, really heavy, which in my studio lighting, it didn't, you know, after immediate application. But throughout the day, I can see how it wore like that for sure. So I had told her, hey, I feel fully confident to make all these changes on your wedding day, but if you would like to come in for a second trial, just for peace of mind, I'm like, you're more than welcome to do that. Because, like I said, after the second trial, she loved everything. We didn't change anything from that trial to wedding day. So could I have done all of that on her wedding day? Absolutely. But she wanted to feel that before. Yeah. Which I get. So we'll always offer a second trial. So we did that. Her and mom both ended up loving it. It was easy peasy. And, you know, I said this in the video, but they brought me flowers, they wrote me a card. They told me how much they appreciated me. I think a situation that could have been very uncomfortable if I had taken things, you know, personally and not taken responsibility for my heirs could have been a really bad scenario. Especially knowing that she had already been treated badly by an artist. I think that was kind of like, wow, I'm glad that that's not the standard that I set. Even if she thinks that's how artists handle. Handle things, you know? Yeah.
- [47:11]
A
Yeah. And that she got to have a redemptive experience for such a big day as. As her wedding day, too. And I love. I think that just perfectly illustrates the heart posture as a service provider. It's like, hey, not only Noelle, were you able to sit there and be like, hey, I messed up. Maybe not majorly, but, like, I missed a couple of things in my process that I normally am like, so, you know, clear about and do every time. And I just kind of got carried away and excited, and I thought I understood their vision. And I. That was on me. Like, for you to sit here and be like, that was on me. And then to be like. And I still had this whole, you know, experience set up where they could give this feedback. And I was then willing to go out of my way to be like, let's do a second trial. Like, that approach, Regardless of what, you know, industry you're in, if you are a service provider, I think that approach of being like, how can I deliver an experience that is going to significantly bless, serve, and just go above and beyond for my clients, I think that mindset is everything, especially in the wedding industry.
- [48:32]
B
Yeah.
- [48:32]
C
And we're the first vendors the bride sees. Like, I. I tell my other artists that all the time, the energy you walk in with at 3:00am, 4:00am, 5:00am, that sets the tone for the entire day. And if your attitude is off, their energy is going to be weird. Like, we have to keep it happy regardless. So true. That really does. I mean, imagine if the first person you see on your wedding day is mean to you. I mean, that's it, like, sets a.
- [48:57]
B
Tone or it sets like a. A feeling in your mouth that's just like, ugh.
- [49:01]
C
Like, yeah.
- [49:02]
B
And you don't want.
- [49:03]
C
With me or. Yeah.
- [49:05]
A
Yeah.
- [49:06]
B
Oh, man, I have so many. Okay. I don't want to get off topic too much, so just real quick.
- [49:14]
C
This is actually.
- [49:15]
B
This is off topic, though. I'm so sorry. When you're, when you're saying, like, you're doing, like, you offered her a second trial, this is from a service provider perspective, do you include. Maybe this is kind of on topic in a way when you're offering to go above and beyond? Like, I'm sure you don't normally do second trials for br. Are you just eating that cost and that time, or did you bill her again for like a second separate.
- [49:41]
C
That's a good question, because I had a lot of people in my comments asking that, like, well, did you just work for free? And so this was the option that I gave her was, I feel 100% confident to make those changes, because if we break down what the changes really were, it was a different foundation, a different concealer, and a different powder. Everything else was the same. So to me, I just knew that, that, that while it felt like a big change to her, I knew it was a minor change. I knew that because brides do that all the time. Like, hey, the lip you put on me was kind of brown. Can we do a pink one? But there would be no reason to do a whole another trial for a lip change, right? So I think because it was foundation or skin, it felt like a bigger deal to her. But what I told her was, I feel 100% confident to make those changes on the wedding day, but if you would like a second trial, I will have to charge you for it. So for me, even though I'm, you know, trying to right my wrongs, I knew that I could do that on the wedding day. I felt very confident of that. And she said, I'm more than willing to pay anything. I just want peace of mind. So I had, I gave her that option if she had been like, you know, unfortunately, the service was not great. I didn't like anything, and I feel owed another Trial without cause. I never argue with a client. I would never have said no, actually, it's going to be this much. So I think, for me, I like to provide the client with confidence that I know we can get this right, because it's a simple change on my end. But if you would like the additional confidence, unfortunately, I can't work for free, but I will absolutely do that for you. And she was like, I'm more than willing to pay anything. I just want to feel good. So. Because that was her energy, that was what was reciprocated. If she had felt like. Like she had been wronged by me in any way, I would have absolutely righted the wrong. But that was my perspective on that is a lot of people were like, well, artists shouldn't have to work for free. And I'm like, I didn't. I told her that I would have to charge her, you know, but I wanted to make it right. And she was more than happy with that answer.
- [51:35]
A
So, yeah, I love it. I think that's also a situation where depending on what unfolded, if you're like, I literally followed every single direction you gave me to. At. I did.
- [51:48]
C
Yeah.
- [51:49]
A
Everything you said, I think, you know, you changed your mind, which is perfectly fine.
- [51:53]
C
Yeah.
- [51:53]
A
You know, there. There's. I feel like there's a. A scale. This is like, a big variety of how, you know, how something like that could unfold. But it. There's. There's also, therefore, a scale to how you approach it. And, like, you could either be like, hey, that was entirely on me. Like, yeah, you did nothing wrong as the client. I completely. Like, I didn't even listen to you. Like, you know, I'm gonna do a second trial for free.
- [52:20]
C
Yeah.
- [52:21]
A
Like, hey, I'm gonna do a discount.
- [52:23]
C
I didn't actually. I haven't posted about this, but there was a time that I did do that. So I'll talk about. The difference in the two was with that bride, specifically that we're talking about. I was using words like full glam, full coverage, and she was agreeing to all of that. So if you think about the verbalizing, technically, I did everything she said. However, the part that I missed was learning who she is every day and not combining that with her inspiration. So one of our rules is our 1, 2, 3 level system. Day to day, she's a 1, and I made her a 3. That's like a big no. No. In our training is you can only take a client one jump without scaring them. So I should have made without scaring them. That was an error on my part in the consultation, but I do think that based on what I said and any other artist standard. Yeah, I technically did what she said. She just ended up not liking it. But again, my fault for not digging deeper. Based on our customer journey, my. My tattoo artist, actually. It's funny. She got married last October, and she very unique. Like, she's got red hair, she's pale. She's covered in tattoos. She likes a big wing liner. Like, she just has a very. Not a typical bridal look to her. Right. Her dress had, like, these embroidered flowers all over it, and she wanted a green eyeshadow look with white graphic eyeliner. Whoa. And totally out of my comfort zone. I was like, I love you, but I'm like, I'm scared. I'm scared. So we did the trial, and it wasn't good. The makeup was not good. I. I think I panicked a little bit. And this was before I took my color lesson that I took this past April. I think I panicked a little bit. And I texted her that night, and I was like, I did not service you in the way that I wish I had. Like, I would love to another trial for free. And we ended up totally changing the look, and she loved it. Her wedding day was beautiful. We did, like, a maroon, like, wing that kind of, like, ombre out. It was so pretty. But, yeah, that's. That was an opportunity where I was like, okay, I fully did complete the service that was asked of me. And in that moment, I felt like that wasn't fair to her.
- [54:22]
A
Yeah.
- [54:23]
C
I think those situations kind of differ based on how I handled them.
- [54:27]
A
I think that's such a good illustration of the two. Yeah. And being able to acknowledge, like, you know, if you as a business owner, as an artist, are going into every situation being like, I must be paid. Paid for my time. But there's an instance where you can fully, if you set aside your ego, acknowledge, like, hey, I did not do my best work. I'm not confident, as, you know, the service provider, that I can deliver on her wedding day or whatever the final result is, if it's any form of filming or a photo shoot or anything that just is, like, you can't really go back and redo the whole thing.
- [55:15]
C
Yeah.
- [55:15]
A
Like, for you to be able to be like, okay, yes. Is my time valuable? Absolutely. Is this an instance where I need to set aside my, like, ego and be like, I'm doing a second trial, or, you know, I'm willing to reshoot, you know, that session because, you know, as A photographer. The lighting and the location threw me. So for a loop that I did not deliver for you, I am willing to do a reshoot for you. It's like there are exceptions and there are times, times I feel like your gut knows.
- [55:44]
C
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
- [55:46]
A
But you have to set aside like the ego, which is, which is hard at times.
- [55:50]
B
Well, and I also feel like in the service industry there's just a talk and we're like told like, stand up for yourself. Like, you need to own who you are and like tell the client what to pay. And like there's truth to that a little bit, but there's also truth to nuance and, and understanding when like serving the client best is genuinely just like eating something or like owning up to a mistake that you may have made or not done as well.
- [56:20]
C
I got a lot of comments like that on my TikTok video that I made of, like, we can't just let customers run all over us in this industry. Like, that's not acceptable if they're not acting right. And there was a whole army of people in the comment section just really fighting for this. Like, like, stand up for yourself. Stand up for yourself. And I think everyone has a threshold of what they can take. And I think if you don't know the difference between disrespect and just un under prepared, like, maybe the client, they didn't know, they needed an inspiration picture they've never had. They just don't know versus them blatantly. You know, I mean, I've had a bridesmaid sit in my chair 45 minutes late and get like, it really shouldn't take you that long if you're a professional. Like, oh, you know, like disrespectful. Right. But a bridesmaid who's like, I'm so sorry, I was in traffic and I didn't mean to. I'll, you know, whatever, I'll stay longer, whatever I need to do. Like there's a difference in showing grace and allowing disrespect. And I think, yeah, everyone has a different perspective of that, but I think there needs to be a unified understanding of what's the difference, you know, and the way a client can treat me versus am I just annoyed because maybe the last bridesmaid asked for something I couldn't do or like just self awareness. I talk about that all the time. If you're not self aware, you really can't be in an industry where you work with people.
- [57:41]
B
That's so cool.
- [57:43]
C
That's so good.
- [57:44]
B
We love self awareness.
- [57:45]
C
Oh, my gosh.
- [57:46]
B
Noelle, as we're wrapping up, is there a final piece that you would love for any hair and makeup artist listening or honestly, any artist, service provider that's listening, is there a final piece of. Piece of compassion, led client experience that you would advise or give as, I guess, a tip or just, like, advice? That's frankly all I can say in. In ending today of just like this topic in general.
- [58:13]
C
Yeah. I think the biggest piece of advice I would give is just imagine you're the client. Like, we had our girls do an exercise where we all went to local makeup artists and we sat in their chair and we were the client and we experienced it from the side. And we did that for a couple reasons. One, to navigate what's the industry norm for a client experience, but then also, what does it feel like to be in the vulnerable position of a naked face and an artist who just gets to do whatever they want and you don't get to see it? And it's different than your normal habits? Like, what does that feel like from the client perspective of, like, you are vulnerable, you know, so just imagine you're that person, person, and how would you want to be serviced? And I think that's a big tell. All of you know, if. If I was the one being treated this way, how would I feel?
- [59:04]
A
Oh, I love it. Noelle. Why am I calling her Nicole?
- [59:09]
C
Everyone does that. I actually called Nicole. Like, really? Yeah.
- [59:13]
B
I was literally. I'm just thinking maybe, yeah, we have a friend named Nicole.
- [59:17]
A
One of our best friends is Nicole. So I kept thinking that that's where that was coming from. But when you say that, I'm like, oh, gosh.
- [59:22]
C
What.
- [59:23]
A
What subconsciously makes us call you?
- [59:25]
B
That's fun. Middle name is Noel. It's spelled different than you spell it, but maybe that's why I've just. It's innate.
- [59:32]
C
You go, I haven't had an issue at all.
- [59:35]
A
I feel bad because I, like, know your name.
- [59:37]
B
That's not even a question.
- [59:39]
C
You're.
- [59:39]
B
You're just used to saying Nicole a lot.
- [59:41]
A
We're just going to roll with that. Anyways, Noel, you are such a joy. You have just so much wisdom and such a powerful perspective for artists and for all service providers. So for our listeners who have loved this conversation, who would love to learn more from you, hear more from you.
- [60:00]
B
Follow your spicy tiktoks.
- [60:01]
C
All the things, all the things.
- [60:03]
A
Where can everyone connect with you and find you?
- [60:05]
C
Yes. So on Instagram and on TikTok, my name is Noelleglammua. You can find me on both of those. On Instagram, I post a lot of my client work and on TikTok, like she said, I get a little bit more spicy, a little more personal with my controversial takes. So I also post a lot of stuff for new artists on both of those platforms. So just a lot of education all around. I did just have my first in person masterclass this past January and I plan on touring and going to a couple different cities in 2026, so keep an eye out for that. And I also am launching an online master course that teaches artists how to have a good client consultation and customer journey, teaches them levels 1, 2 and 3 makeup, and teaches them how to build a booming social media business. So that has taken me a lot longer than I thought to finish. I've been working on it for over a year, so I still don't have a launch date, but that will be coming. So yeah, those are all the exciting things I'm doing.
- [60:59]
B
Amazing. Thank you so much, Noelle, for being here and giving your wisdom and just sharing your incredible just perspective on this industry and client compassion le client experience. So thank you so much for everything that you gave today.
- [61:15]
C
Well, thank you for having me. Absolutely sa.