462: "Styled Shoots Are Cheating" - We Discuss Photography Industry HOT Takes

Summary

Podcast Summary – The Heart & Hustle Podcast

Episode 462: "Styled Shoots Are Cheating" – We Discuss Photography Industry HOT Takes

Hosts: Evie McLeod & Lindsey Roman
Date: December 9, 2025

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Overview

In this spicy and candid episode, Evie and Lindsey tackle some of the most polarizing “hot takes” from the photography industry—ranging from the ethics of styled shoots, preset usage, griping about AI editing, and the value (or pitfalls) of education as a next step for photographers. With their trademark real talk and humor, they deconstruct commonplace attitudes, share personal stories, and offer actionable, honest advice for both new and seasoned creative entrepreneurs.

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Key Discussion Points & Notable Insights

1. Hot Take: "Styled Shoots Are Cheating"

[04:39 – 15:04]

• What Are Styled Shoots?

  • Lindsey and Evie break down the controversy: styled shoots can be seen as “cheating” either because they present an unrealistic standard for real clients or because photographers use them to build a portfolio without real event experience.
  • Evie: “Obviously there is a piece… where people share styled shoots and straight up lie and pretend it's a real wedding. I feel like that is universally frowned upon.” [05:57]

• Is It Really Cheating?

  • Both hosts agree: styled shoots aren’t cheating. They’re a strategic and creative tool.
  • Lindsey: “I don't see a problem with them. I think they are a great strategy to get the work that you want to book.” [07:54]
  • Evie: “There's something so powerful about being able to play and be creative without the pressure of a paid situation.” [12:22]

• Caveats:

  • Caution for beginners: Don't let a portfolio of styled shoots misrepresent your actual wedding experience or technical ability.
  • Honest communication and incremental pricing are encouraged.
  • Lindsey: "If you're only shooting styled shoots and showing perfect galleries, but you've only done a couple weddings, just be careful with your pricing and what you're promising." [13:18]

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2. Hot Take: "If You Buy Presets, You're Not a Real Photographer"

[15:09 – 24:06]

• Rundown:

  • Buying and using presets is common in the industry, not a sign of incompetence.
  • Both hosts learned editing by tweaking purchased packs (Mastin Labs and India Earl mentioned as their starter kits).
  • The mark of a skilled photographer: understanding Lightroom deeply so you can adapt and tweak those presets.

• Memorable Quotes:

  • Lindsey: “In order to use a preset and actually edit it to your work, you have to know how to edit, you have to know how to tweak it… you have to learn Lightroom.” [16:47]
  • Evie: “Presets are a phenomenal hand up… but you definitely still have to learn the ins and outs of Lightroom.” [17:30]

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3. Hot Take: "AI Editing Means You Should Charge Less; It's Not Fine Art"

[24:06 – 29:59]

• Debate:

  • Some believe using AI editors like Imagine or Aftershoot reduces the artistry (and should lower your prices).
  • Lindsey and Evie strongly disagree—the technical prowess in photography is not diminished by leveraging efficient workflows.

• Advances in AI vs. Presets:

  • Nuanced take: Buying an AI editing “profile” is potentially more advanced than simply using presets—especially when it comes to time-saving and consistency.
  • Still, both emphasize that understanding editing fundamentals is critical, no matter your post-production tools.

• Quotes:

  • Lindsey: “Any technology advancement… it could be argued that it's cheating. But my time is valuable. I’m not about to sit here for weeks on end in front of a computer hand editing every single photo from scratch.” [22:46]
  • Evie: “Learn Lightroom as much as you can… Get used to understanding what the tones and things do and you'll be great.” [29:42]

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4. Hot Take: "Using Other Photographers’ Photos for Inspo Is Wrong"

[32:33 – 41:38]

• Clarification:

  • The context is creating inspo boards for styled shoots, marketing, or vendor communication.
  • Both hosts insist crediting the original photographer is best practice, but acknowledge how hard it is to trace Pinterest photos to their sources.

• Possible Alternatives:

  • If credit isn’t feasible, at a minimum be transparent that it’s not your own work. Deliberate impersonation is unethical.

• Funny Real Talk:

  • Evie: "The amount of work that it takes to like, go freakin’ find the original photographer to tag and credit—it’s so much!" [34:45]
  • Lindsey: “This is a hot take to the hot take… I would love to just be able to say, ‘photos from Pinterest’—I’m not gonna lie.” [37:09]

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5. Hot Take: "Photographers Market Too Much to Other Photographers"

[42:02 – 44:05]

• The Trap:

  • Many photographers accidentally end up creating educational or humorous content aimed at peers instead of potential clients.
  • This often happens due to social media algorithms and peer engagement.

• Advice:

  • Only create “for photographers” content if you are actively selling education or products to that audience.

• Quote:

  • Lindsey: “You should not be creating photography content like that unless you are an educator of some sort.” [43:30]

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6. Hot Take: "Education is a Crutch for Burnt Out Photographers"

[44:08 – 51:56]

• The Pipeline:

  • Many photographers, as they grow or tire of client work, pivot to teaching, often as a perceived “next step.”

• Honest Assessment:

  • The hosts admit this is common, but warn it’s not a path for everyone—nor an easy way to "make money in your sleep".
  • It only makes sense if you genuinely want to help others, not just escape burnout.

• Final Thoughts:

  • There are other ways to scale or diversify outside of education.
  • Evie: “If you get into education, it should purely be because you genuinely have a heart to help other people. If you’re just doing it for the money, then you SHOULD NOT be doing it.” [51:53]
  • Evie: “The perspective that [education] is the only pipeline for a photographer—I wish that was broken.” [51:59]

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Memorable Moments & Quotes

• Lindsey, on early weddings: “I remember one of my first weddings… it was at a train station… 20 guests… tragic, visually… I’m so ready to opt out of this episode.” [10:05]
• Evie, on Pinterest: “The amount of work that it takes to like, go freaking find the original photographer… I literally have to reverse image search… it’s so much!” [34:45]
• On the inevitable education pipeline: “Everyone and their mother—us included!—uses education as the next step… I feel like the natural next step people think of is: ‘Oh, I have done this thing. Now I will teach this thing.’” [44:33]

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Flow & Tone

The episode stays energetic and conversational, blending spicy hot takes with thoughtful nuance. Both hosts balance playful jabs (including some self-deprecating laughs about their early photography days) with practical advice and a healthy dose of humility about their own journeys.

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Suggested Timestamps

• Styled Shoots Are Cheating: 04:39–15:04
• Presets and “Real” Photography: 15:09–24:06
• AI Editing and Pricing: 24:06–29:59
• Borrowing Inspo Photos: 32:33–41:38
• Marketing to Other Photographers: 42:02–44:05
• Education as a Crutch: 44:08–51:56

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Final Thoughts

This episode is a must-listen for photographers and creative entrepreneurs curious about the unspoken rules of industry culture. Evie and Lindsey offer empowering, permission-giving encouragement to do what works best for you—without buying into shame or gatekeeping—while also urging honesty and self-awareness in both portfolio-building and business evolution.

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Useful for:

• New and aspiring photographers
• Those considering education or expanding their offerings
• Creative entrepreneurs seeking validation or fresh perspective on industry “rules”
• Anyone frustrated or confused by “Instagram discourse” on photography best practices

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Ready for more? Join the Heart and Hustle community on Facebook and follow the group DM on Instagram to share your own hot takes and industry experiences!

Transcript

[A]

You're listening to the Heart and Hustle podcast. We are your hosts, Evie McLeod and Lindsay Roman. Welcome back to the show. If you have not left a review, let's just go ahead and take two minutes and do that. If you are a longtime listener of the show, we would love you forever. I mean, we already love you forever, but just a, just a nice little subtle reminder.

[B]

It is so helpful to us.

[A]

It is very helpful. It helps our show get seen by more audiences and more people or seen, listened, heard, and it just helps us out a ton. So if you.

[B]

It helps us get good guests. When guests see that we have a.

[A]

Lot of good reviews, we want the big bangers. Leave a review. Anyways, today's episode is going to be a really fun one. This is going to be mostly for our photographers listening. We just, in this industry, there's a lot of hot takes, there's a lot of spicy opinions, and we want to be part of the conversation. As always, we have opinions and we would love to weigh in. And so that's exactly what we're going to do today. I'm not even going to tell you what they are because that's obviously the episode. So let's just get to it and we will see you there after the theme's off.

[B]

All right. Let's talk about Pinterest. You know, that beloved site you spend hours upon hours on creating your dream home, closet and wedding. Like, it's fun, right? But it's also more than just fun. Did you know that Pinterest can be an invaluable tool for your own business?

[A]

Here's the deal. Pinterest is an extremely powerful search engine that you can leverage to get your brand and business out there. It's a way to reach new audiences that you wouldn't normally reach through other social media. Which is why we wanted to shed light on this popular social platform and. And share a few reasons why you should be utilizing it now to exponentially grow your business and expand your audience. Like, honestly, it is the number one traffic driver to my business.

[B]

Yes. If you feel lost on where to start, don't worry. We have a whole pin your heart out freebie ready for you to dive into the marketing and help you start the process so you can snag it at theheartuniversity.com forward/pinterest.

Hey. Hey. Hi.

[A]

I'm Lindsay Roman.

[B]

And I'm Evie McLeod. And we are family and legacy focused serial entrepreneurs and the founders of the Hart University, a business education company with a mission to help you Thrive in your business and life.

[A]

Welcome to our entrepreneur cocktail hour where business and marketing strategies meet faith, real talk and raw in life changing conversations.

[B]

At the end of the day, we are all in this together, figuring out how to navigate the ups and downs, the messy and the beautiful and everything in between. This is a community where you can come as you are, get inspired and walk away equipped to build a legacy filled life.

[A]

You're listening to the Heart and Hustle podcast.

[B]

All right, let's dive in.

[A]

Oh, I am so ready to get spicy.

[B]

Oh, I don't know if I have that energy. I'm in third trimester. Pregnant at the time of recording. No, Lindsay's. Lindsay's.

[A]

I'm in second trimester. A second is kind of when you're like, you're feeling the best, though.

[B]

I'm not gonna lie.

[A]

Well, listen, earlier this week, I was not feeling the best. And then I don't know what happened. The Holy Spirit answered my prayers because I was like aching. I was feeling third trimester even though I was second trimester. And I was like, lord almighty, is this like fourth? Well, technically fifth pregnancy. But like, this is aggressive. Like, am I supposed to. Am I feeling this pained in second? Yeah. This early? And I was like, this is not good. I'm feeling like I'm 36 weeks and I'm like 22 or 21, I don't even know. And I'm like, this is a. So I was not doing well.

[B]

And you're. You're thriving now.

[A]

Well, yesterday, Yesterday I woke up.

[B]

Give me some of that.

[A]

A new woman. I could move my lips. I got coffee.

[B]

She walked into my house. I was on a very mellow, like, slow. I'm just kind of like know to.

[A]

Be fair, you are more pregnant.

[B]

I am. I'm definitely more pregnant, but I'm also just like, I just slow and easy morning. And Lindsay comes in like, woo.

[A]

I mean, I also. Drinking coffee. You're drinking water. So there is some of that.

[B]

That's true.

[A]

That could be affecting that as well. Okay, well, let's get into it.

[B]

We're going to get into it. Lindsay's clearly ready to bring the spice. And I will. I will bring typical Evie energy. I feel like you'll match.

[A]

You're very opinionated. I am. And you hide it a lot.

[B]

I. I don't hide it. I just don't feel the need to tell every single person. Not that you do. And I'm not that. But like, I just.

[A]

Right.

[B]

But honestly, I'm selective with who hears 100%.

[A]

Totally. But this podcast, we are here and we have dubbed this episode.

[B]

We give takes.

[A]

We give opinions on the hot takes. So we want your opinions.

[B]

Okay, let's dive in. We're going to start with the first hot take. Styled shoots are cheating.

Also, to clarify, this is. This is a industry buzz conversation. Hot take. We're not necessarily stating our opinion on that. Right.

[A]

We're about to state our opinion. But that's like the statement is styled shoots are cheating. And can we, like, unpack what that means? I feel like when. When people say they're cheating, I think there's kind of two conversation pieces around that. There's one conversation piece that says that you are putting.

Like, like a false presence out or you are setting too high of a standard that's unrealistic. Unrealistic or unattainable. Yeah. For actual brides to reach.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

But I. But I think so that's one piece of it that it's like only showing the unattainable. The second piece of it, I think that ruffles feathers is that it is cheating in the sense that, like, if you're only doing styled shoots to get work, that you are not a real photographer because you don't have experience shooting a wedding. Right. Like, that's. Is that.

[B]

Is there another two kind of camps of thought?

[A]

Is there another way to view the buzz and the.

[B]

No.

[A]

Controversial.

[B]

I think it's those two.

[A]

I've also heard people that, like, they get mad when people only share styled shoots. Obviously, there is a piece of this that's like when people share styled shoots and straight up lie and pretend it's a real wedding. I feel like that is universally frowned upon.

[B]

I would agree. I also think it's very rare that anybody is like, this wedding day was so special.

[A]

Right.

[B]

Like, I don't think most photographers really.

[A]

Do that, but I do think there is an element that when people share a styled shoot and they don't always, like, disclaimer fully say, this is a styled shoot. Okay, now my caption can continue.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Which I think that's weird. I don't think we need to disclose just because a photo came from a styled shoe. I don't think you have to disclaim it. Obviously. Caveat as, like, don't lie and say it's a real wedding day. Or don't formulate the caption to make it seem like it's a real wedding day.

[B]

Like, warning, this was a fake styled shoot. Do not get your expectations up. Okay, now my caption, like, I just think I, I just, I just. Yeah, I agree with that one. Okay, so general opinion, Lindsay, style shoots are cheating. What is, what's your hot take on that one?

[A]

Listen, I know that there are many ways to get portfolio. I'm not saying that styled shoots are the only way.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You can second shoot. You could set up your own.

[B]

Well, that's a style shoot.

[A]

Well, no, because some people, some people would clarify. A styled shoot, I think in some people's minds is more of like attending a content day where it's like. Yeah, it's really like involved and it's beautifully luxury style. I think some people think that if you set up your own shoots and.

[B]

You like work real couples for free type of thing.

[A]

Yeah. Do that basically like, like get a dress or have like a friend use her own dress because she's already married and do that. I think that they would say that that's okay.

[B]

How.

[A]

I know I'm eye rolling. If you can't. If you're not watching this on YouTube, I'm eye rolling.

[B]

I don't understand.

[A]

Okay, so our opinion is that it's not cheating. We are a fan of styled shoots. We do style shoots all the time. I don't see a problem with them. Yeah, I think they are a great strategy to get the work that you want to book. Because a fact of the matter, and I'm not saying it's the only way, but a fact of the matter, a principle of life. And this is not even the photography industry. This is any industry. The thing that you market, the thing that you put out in the world. If you are a service or. Or even a product based business, that is what you will get booked or purchased for.

[B]

People want to buy what you are presenting as an. As the offer.

[A]

If you. Let's. Okay, you're a photographer, you're in like year one or two of your business. You live in Iowa and all your inquiries, all your current clients especially because when you first start your business, you're probably getting lower income clients, obviously because.

[B]

You'Re, you're lower budget.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

Budget income, same word.

[B]

It's not. Well, it's not at all interchangeable, but sure.

[A]

It all means finances. That's what I meant to say. Okay.

Like.

Oh, because income is what they make, but what they make is not obviously correlated to what they want to spend on a wedding day.

[B]

Correct.

[A]

Yeah. Yeah.

[B]

Well, like people have really tight budgets and are ballin.

[A]

Sure.

[B]

It's just.

[A]

That's just choices or income.

[B]

Budget, budget wedding.

[A]

Yes. Thank you. Usually when you're first starting your business photography specifically in this scenario. You're not. You're not probably shooting, like, really great visually looking weddings.

[B]

Let's just call this Lindsay is getting spicy.

[A]

I mean, but is that not. Can we just all. Let's just agree, like, look back at the beginning. Maybe you're an anomaly. I'm looking back at my. And I'm not saying that they're bad weddings. I'm not saying that they're not beautiful, that the people weren't great. I'm saying purely from a visual perspective, like, the first year or so, it's a little rough.

I'm ready to, like, back out of this episode Already.

[B]

We're gonna get canceled.

[A]

No, I'm just saying what everyone is thinking.

[B]

Okay, continue.

[A]

You know what I'm saying? Like.

Like, I remember one of my first weddings. Can I even call it a wedding? It was a wedding. Yes. It was like, they got married at, like, a. Like a train station. Guys, visual with me here. It was like. I think there were 20 guests. It was like round tables with white tablecloths with, like, a sunflower as the centerpiece, you know, and it was, like, tragic. Visually, they are lovely people. They're so great and incredible. I'm saying, like, I'm so ready to.

[B]

Opt out of this episode. You are literally trashing past clients.

[A]

No, no.

I'm not trashing past clients. I'm saying when you first start your business, because you are new at the art. Yeah. You like the. The people that hire you are people that have a lower budget, usually because you're cheap.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Right. Yeah.

[B]

Let's move on.

[A]

I'm saying that in order to grow.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I'm not saying style shoots are the only way, but they are a great tool in your arsenal. Tool belt.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

To get the work that you therefore want to show to then get booked for people that are organically planning weddings that look like that.

[B]

I also.

[A]

Does that make sense?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Did I? Great.

[B]

There's. There's. There's. There's validity to what you're saying.

[A]

Right. Thank you.

[B]

Okay, moving on. So I also think there's something so powerful and beautiful beyond simply, like, being able to showcase something that might take you longer to be able to get to or showcase organically on your own. It kind of, like, helps, like, open a door to a specific style that maybe is not super in demand in Iowa or, you know, wherever you are. Like, there's so many factors of, like, hey, I want this in my portfolio. That's a whole factor. But the other thing with styled shoots that I find incredibly beneficial is your ability to play and be creative without the pressure of an actual paid situation, paid client, or paid wedding day. And I think for all creatives, that is a phenomenal training exercise slash.

Experimental, like opportunity. So even if you're like, hey, I'm super stoked with my portfolio, I'm really happy with what I have and the clients I'm working with and like, everything is like, great, I would still say that styled shoots are an amazing opportunity for you to experiment, to step outside of the box, to do things that you probably wouldn't do when you have a paying client with a gallery that you have to deliver a certain quality of work. So that's another thing with styleshoots that I'm a big fan of, on top of even just the portfolio building. So I think in our opinion very strongly styled shoes are definitely not cheating. I think there is, I agree with the, the, the side of things that if you are start in the first year or so of your business and you have attended quite a few styled shoots for whatever reason, but you have only ever shot like one or two weddings, I would be cautious.

To like.

[A]

Up your pricing because the visuals of your portfolio might be really good.

[B]

And not to say that you clearly can't deliver beautiful work. It's just there really is a dramatic night and day difference between a styled shoot, like formatting and a wedding day.

[A]

I feel like for that person that's done like a lot of styled shoots but has maybe only shot two weddings on their own, I would highly recommend getting into more second shooting. I would make sure.

[B]

Yeah, I would make sure you're doing a lot of second shooting. And then the other thing is, I would just be, I guess the pricing thing. There is a factor. There is. Because I would like, I would be cautious. I don't think you need to like, disclaim to your clients, you know, oh, I, I don't have much experience. I don't think you necessarily, if it's your first, second wedding and you're like really nervous about even being able to deliver, that's a whole nother conversation. Like, make sure. Especially on your first wedding, in my opinion. Yeah, clients should know that is your first wedding. But I'm just saying in general, if you're like, oh, I've shot like three or four, like in, in my career or something, you don't have to be like, this is only going to be my fifth wedding. I just want to make sure you're com. Like, you don't need to do that, I just would be cautious to be like, I'm charging, like, five grand and, you know, I'm showing them, like, all of this perfect styled shoe imagery. And I'm not. I haven't even sent them a full wedding gallery of mine. Like, I would just be very cautious because it could be easy if you do have a lot of stuff. Styled shoot, portfolio, but not a lot of wedding experience. They are. They are different ball games. And I would make sure that you're aware of that. If you're aware of that and you're making sure your clients are covered and you're taking care of your clients and you feel confident that you can deliver on the price you're charging for the weddings that, you know, like, that's just. Just be careful there.

[A]

Yep.

[B]

That's the only other thing I would say.

[A]

I feel like that's it. I mean, like, I feel like we.

[B]

Covered it for sure.

[A]

Okay, great. The next hot take. That is kind of an industry buzz that I hear a lot is using presets bought from other photographers means that you, one, aren't a good photographer, and two, don't know how to edit.

[B]

Spicy.

[A]

Spicy. I feel like this past summer I did a reel on this, addressing this topic, and I feel like the way I phrased it, I think I said using presets in general makes you not a good photographer. And what I meant, like, the top.

[B]

Purchasing presets.

[A]

Yeah, purchasing presets from somebody else, which is. I feel like most like.

[B]

Like pretty obviously a majority of photographers purchase a preset at some point.

[A]

Yes. Usually a beginner photographer. I mean, some people 100 do, and. And even, like, tweak presets, purchase from other people. But I feel like it's less common in my experience and my talking to coaching students and people in the industry, I think it's less common to just like, create your own preset from scratch. Purely from scratch.

[B]

From the beginning.

[A]

From the beginning. I think people do it, but. So I think I was expecting, like, when I made that reel, a lot of people to be like, oh, disagree. And everyone was like, well, yeah, obviously, like, I use my own presets. I made them. Nothing wrong with it. And I'm like, that's not at all.

I think the buzz specifically or the controversy is people thinking that you are.

[B]

Cheating if you purchase somebody else's presets.

[A]

And then use them.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And I would. I guess my opinion to that. Would love to know your opinion. Also, I. I don't think it's cheating because in order to use a preset and actually edit it to your work, I think you have to know how to edit, you have to know how to tweak it. You have to, I guess you don't always have to, but in order to make it look any semblance of goods, sometimes depending on the lighting scenario. Because like you could have a preset that is like a one click edit for like a certain lighting scenario, but then on another scenario you have to tweak it a ton. And so it's like it's not universally one click all around. And so I feel like you have to learn Light. Lightroom.

[B]

I, I think what you're trying to say, how I would summarize it is presets are a phenomenal hand up.

[A]

It's a tool.

[B]

But it is like, yeah, it's, it's a tool that makes your workflow a bit easier. But you definitely, in my opinion, you definitely still have to learn the ins and outs of Lightroom and how to edit.

[A]

Well, I'm wondering if the hot take then is people think that, and maybe there are people out here that do this but like if they use a preset, they don't tweak it like at all and therefore they don't know is that, that's probably the, that's probably the basis of where the controversy is coming from or where the hot take is coming from.

[B]

Maybe.

[A]

But I'm like, you have to, that's what I'm saying. You have to tweak a preset.

[B]

I will say I do think it is easier significantly to edit better with a really good preset.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

But like, like I'm thinking back to when I was first starting and before I had purchased a preset ever. And I was like, literally like, oh.

[A]

It was tragic land.

[B]

It was rough.

[A]

Yeah. But I remember Mast and Labs was my first preset.

[B]

Me too. What I didn't know yours was.

[A]

And I just remember being like, oh, wow. But then actually I realized I was trying to be like the light same photographer.

[B]

It makes sense. We literally got started in photograph like the exact same time. We were in the same era of photography.

[A]

It's funny, but then I remember I found, I think I went from Mass and Labs to like India Earl's presets at the very, very beginning.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And I once I got India Earl's presets, they had to be tweaked pretty heavily and I did tweak them pretty heavily, but that's when I like locked in and I was like, oh, things started to click this is my style. But in order to find my style, I had to tweak her presets a crap ton.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And like, yeah, I. But I feel like that helped me get a feel for what colors could look like because mass and labs in.

[B]

India earl dramatically different. Yeah.

[A]

But it like, it helps you, I think, play around and explore and I think it makes you a better photographer and helps you play.

[B]

Totally. I. Yeah, I will say I like, Yes. I spent however many months or a year, like as a hobby photography, hobbyist, photographer, like not using presets whatsoever. So, like, I did spend a good amount of time just learning and editing without it.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

But oh my gosh, it was still so tragic by the time I got my first preset pack, which was mass in labs. And then there was so much. I was learning so much of tweaking and whatever from there. And then same thing, I got into a preset pack. I don't remember who it was from at this point. That was like, oh, things are starting to really click here. But I'm like, I had to learn my entire career how to really edit really well to the point that now I probably could edit a photo without a preset ever and still get it exactly to the place I want it. So I. Presets means you're cheating or not a good photographer or don't know how to edit. I disagree with that. As a blanket statement, do I think it is an incredible accelerator to finding your style to editing faster? Absolutely. Do I think that.

If you are just simply slapping one preset and moving on and not learning the ins and outs. Yeah, that could be a problem.

[A]

Don't do that.

[B]

But also, I'm like, Lynn and I were actually talking recently and we were discussing how we think AI editing is going to be shifting the editing front.

[A]

I was about to. This is not on our list, but it's almost like a sub hot take from this topic that I will share in a second.

[B]

We'll go dive in.

[A]

Oh, okay. Sorry. It. I think one of my insiders shared this and I was like, oh, that's. That's a take. I think. I can't remember how she phrased it, but she was like, if you use AI editing like Imagine or Aftershoot or Batch, like any of the. Like the. The, like where it's not a human editor, but it's like you're outsourcing to a robot kind of situation. They were like, I think that you shouldn't charge like top dollar because you're not hand. It's not like fine art anymore. It's like you're not hand editing your photos. It's like you're. You're letting a computer do it and therefore it's not like as interesting. Almost like comparing it to like a, Like a painter.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Where it's like every single photo. And I was like, ooh, hard disagree, but love the perspective.

[B]

I'm just thinking, like, I'm. I'm thinking back in time where there's any technology advancement, and I'm thinking back to.

Like Tin Tin. Oh my gosh. What's that called? Oh, I want to say tin plate photography. Is that what it's called? The tin. Oh my gosh. Anyways, an old form of film photography.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

Oh my gosh. I can't. I can't think of what. It's gonna drive me crazy.

[A]

Anything that is a new technology that makes something go faster or is easier. You.

[B]

It could be argued that it's cheating. That it's cheating and it doesn't require.

[A]

The same level of intentionality.

[B]

Hands on skill or experience or whatever. Like, you could argue that.

[A]

Listen, but my time is valuable and I'm not about to sit here for weeks on end in front of a computer hand editing.

[B]

Here's the thing.

[A]

Every single photo from scratch without using a preset. Preset is time saving. It's a tool. I also appreciate like Instacart and I appreciate Uber Eats.

[B]

Well, here's the thing. People, People have to understand with. With any form of outsourcing editing, whether it's to a human or to AI or whatever, you still have to. Or gosh, you should be review, approving and reviewing and tweaking pretty much every single image. Well, when I say tweaking every single image, there's probably a problem if your editor's giving back AI or human.

[A]

Like every single one.

[B]

Every single one has to be tweaked because it is not what it should be. There's.

[A]

But you still go through the whole gallery and you would make adjustments as needed.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

It's not like. And I think I had this assumption before I started ever outsourcing my editing. I think I just assumed that like, and this is. Sounds ridiculous when you say it out loud, but it's like, oh, I just. I guess I thought that they did.

[B]

The work and sent you the final JPEGs.

[A]

Yes, that. Or maybe like the dumber way to say that is like, somehow the editor gave my clients the photos, which is stupid. Like, obviously.

[B]

But like, it was like, the gallery is finished, it was finalized and Done.

[A]

Yes. Probably exported JPEGs is probably more so what I. But that's not how it works. No, not at all. Whether it's AI or a human editor.

[B]

Not at all. The thing that I was like, LAN and I have been talking about, or we were just walking one evening and we were kind of talking about it, but there are now with something like Imagine or Batch or Aftershoot, there's for years, there's. Well, not years. It's somewhat newer technology, but it's always been that you have to upload, you have to train the AI, like the algorithm and be like, here are thousands of my images with my edit that you then learn and then, you know, edit off of. So I had to have a bank of editing for you to even learn and work for me. However, there are now AI technologies and softwares where it pulls from somebody else's. There's like.

Like Edit. Oh my gosh.

[A]

What's edit? Like this person.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Well, Imogen or Imagine has like profiles that you can purchase of people's edits. Yes. To like. I mean, that's. You still could tweak that.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

And the way that Imagines works is like you could use their profile and then when you pull their photos back into your lightroom, you can personally tweak it and then upload it back. It trains your own. So it's like you bought. It's almost like a preset where it's like you bought.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Profile of somebody else's. But then as you tweak it, the AI software learns your own tweaks.

[B]

However, I will say that does make me. I do. I do have a little bit more of a feeling of that's cheating than I do with. With presets. Because how is that different? Well, think about it. Think about. One of the things I love about like Imagine and uploading is that there can be photos like, side by side that were, you know, my second shooter was shooting from angle, totally different lighting. I was shooting from this angle, you know, totally different lighting. And Imagine just does a lot of the heavy lifting for me of matching those to what my final edit would have been. But it would have taken me a lot more tweaking, shooting, like editing my second shooter's image because the lighting was so different and like, whatever. There's some heavy lifting. That image Imagine does like AI editing does. So there is an element. Even though the same preset. I could literally put the same preset. Like you're saying it's a one click for my angle because of the Lighting. I was in, you know, the prime spot, and it's like a 25 click for my second shooter because the lighting was so different. But when you upload it to imagine, it's literally like it's. It comes back to me like seamless, side by side. So I'm not against. I'm not against purchasing a.

[A]

You would still tweak it.

[B]

Look, what I'm saying is I consider like AI profile editing profiles to be significantly more advanced on the edit side than you think, than a preset. I think that is the future, to be honest. And I'm not against it. I want to make that clear. I'm not saying I'm against it, but I see a little bit more. Like I'm putting myself in my. If I were beginning my career and I could purchase a profile from AI editing with this whole bank of like. Like photographer.

[A]

You upload a wedding and say, edit it like that. Yes, but then you still have to.

[B]

You still have to tweak it. But, but if they're. If they're pulling. Let's just say.

[A]

I guess the difference is if it's coming from a profile that you bought versus a preset that you bought and then tweaked.

[B]

A preset. Yeah, that's the thing. Because I'm like a preset. I'm not saying I'm against AI editing, especially when you have to train your own profile because you have to pull from your own bank of like, thousands of images.

[A]

What I'm saying, I guess I would still tweak it even if it came from a purchased profile.

[B]

Yeah, but it's going to be pretty dang close to perfect because it's.

[A]

You think?

[B]

Yes. Okay. I imagine.

[A]

Imagine.

[B]

Imagine.

Like India Earl, like those presets that you had bought that you had in the day significantly tweak.

[A]

Oh, but like, I'm tweaking them, but.

[B]

Yes, but you are now able to purchase the India Earl Imagine profile where it is basically a seamless edit across all lighting scenarios. Yeah, but matches. That is cohesive.

[A]

I agree with that. But what if. Because her. How she edited with her original, like, old, old presets was different than my edit.

[B]

You're assuming, though, that you're purchasing a profile that is not very much aligned with how you want to shoot. I'm saying what if there was a.

[A]

Like, your final style?

[B]

Like your final style, the what you eventually ended up with.

[A]

You're right.

[B]

You were able to purchase a profile that was basically edited a gallery seamlessly, cohesively.

[A]

I would say that's a lot of time saving.

[B]

It is. But in that scenario, I'm like, understand.

[A]

You don't have to tweak it yourself. I mean, you still could, but there's.

[B]

There's just a. There is a bit more of like you. I could see you not having to learn as much of the ins and outs of editing because it makes it pretty dang good across the board. Across all lighting. Very cohesive.

[A]

I would still say.

[B]

I'm not against the profile.

[A]

No, I understand. I. I would still say. I think our. Our lesson, if we have one for.

[B]

Viewers, is learn how to edit.

[A]

Is learn how. Learn the ins and outs of Lightroom. Whether you're using a profile like an image and purchase. Prof. Using presets, it will always serve you.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

To learn like the tone curve, to learn the color tones, HSL sliders, your.

[B]

Your calibration panel, the midtones on the.

[A]

Yeah. Literally the entire basic. Well, is that the basic. What's that called?

[B]

No, it's literally just your entire lightroom. Learn your.

[A]

I know, but what's the. The tab called the basic is only the top part. Develop. Thank you.

[B]

Your entire lightroom. Let's just be real. Learn Lightroom as much as you can learn.

[A]

Get used to understanding what the tones and things do and you'll be great.

[B]

Yeah. I am very interested to see how AI editing and profiles specifically are going to impact the photography world.

[A]

I still think about the girl that was like, if you use AI editing, not even just profiles, just like AI editing at all. That's not. She didn't say cheating, but that's like you shouldn't be charging top dollar. You should be a very cheap photographer. And I was like, okay, interesting.

[B]

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[B]

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[A]

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[A]

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[B]

I love it. Okay.

[A]

Love that opinion for you.

[B]

Okay, the next one, using other photographers photos for inspo is wrong and should not be done. Can we clarify what that means?

[A]

Yes, I think for. I think as I've heard it like kind of like a touchy subject in this industry. I've heard it like when you're selling something of your own. Right. Or like, or marketing.

[B]

Like let's say you're doing a styled shoot and you are pulling inspo photos from Pinterest from other photographers.

[A]

That looks like the style that you're creating.

[B]

Yeah. Like you're trying to show an example of the cake that you are parting with the baker to.

[A]

To make but you didn't take that photo.

[B]

Yeah. So that's. That's the wrong and should not be done is the hot take.

[A]

I feel like I have to disagree with this. As long as you credit that's. Yeah, that's where I land. I think that's where you land.

[B]

Yeah. Because I'm not gonna lie though. Here's the thing.

I. I agree that that crediting is the best operation.

[A]

Right. Because if you're just taking a photo from Pinterest.

[B]

Yes. I think crediting the other photographer is definitely the best route to go. Especially here's the thing that I feel very strongly about is you should never be using other inspo photos or other photographers images and pretending like they are your own. Well, not even, like, obviously, obviously, but like, even being.

Subtle in not clarifying that this is my inspo board. You know, like, you're kind of trying to like, almost just be like a lie by omission.

[A]

Like, like almost collaging it with photos of your work and then not clarifying.

[B]

And then not clarifying. Like, this is an inspo board. You know, like photos pulled from Pinterest.

[A]

Whatever.

[B]

Like I'm saying 100%. You should never, ever, ever even try to kind of suggest that that is your work whatsoever. The best route, in my opinion, is to credit every single photographer for any inspo board or any like, whatever.

[A]

Right.

[B]

However, I'm not gonna lie, I. The amount of work that it takes.

[A]

To like, go find the credit, go.

[B]

Freaking find the original photographer to find their Instagram, to be able to tag them and credit them.

[A]

Hold on. I'm sorry, Evie, Speaking for personal experience, because every. Usually I don't. I don't actually know. We divide labor many ways, but for some reason, every time we host a workshop. So this is. We're very aware of this topic because we've done it.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

If we are hosting a workshop and.

[B]

We have an inspo board.

[A]

And we have an inspo board from Pinterest, and it's not that we don't have work necessarily, but it's like when you're creating a styled shoot specifically in a very specific style, you genuinely might not have photos of the style that you genuinely are creating or like, very specific things.

[B]

Like I'm saying, like, of a very specific type of cake or very specific. Hey, we want all white flowers.

[A]

A horse.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And you have never shot a horse.

[B]

Or you have, but it's a completely different style. Like, you've shot a horse. I know you've shot a horse, like, on, you know, a beautiful, like, hillside in Hawaii with, like, lays around their neck, and it was gorgeous. But you're shooting a horse at a castle in France. Completely different vibe.

[A]

Right, right.

[B]

Anyways, so we've.

[A]

So. But we're in order to. So in order to, like, for our heart workshop sales pages.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

We've pulled in photos from Pinterest that match the vibe of the.

[B]

To be able to Showcase the style. Creating, curating.

[A]

Yeah. To showcase, hey, this is what the general aesthetic of this shoot will look like. But because we try to be ethical, we're not trying to pretend that we took those photos. We're not trying to just, like, use.

[B]

Some of them without credit, sell something for us at all.

[A]

But it's funny that I don't know how. Maybe it's because I'm dealing with other stuff that's on the design page, but I feel like you're always the person that's tasked with going to Pinterest always to try to, like, source the. Who took that photo. And nine times it's, like, from Tumblr.

[B]

Yeah. And not, like, socially as, like, vibey.

[A]

Cinematic.

[B]

Yeah. So many times it's been. Even if it is a photographer's, like, original photo, it has been pinned a bajillion times, so it's hard to even find the source. I literally have to reverse image search, and then I have to go through about 50 different links to try to find the actual original source. And then half the time it takes me to, like, this random. It's. It's literally. So here's my thing. This is my, like, kind of maybe a hot take to the hot take.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

In an ideal world, I. I think it is. I. Phenomenal to. To credit every single photographer for any single image, whatever.

[A]

Right.

[B]

I would love to just be able to say photos from Pinterest. I'm not gonna lie.

[A]

Oh, yeah.

[B]

I'm not gonna lie. That would be such a dream. But I understand.

I understand.

Why it's nicer to credit all the photographers and why that's the best route to go.

[A]

Because imagine someone used your photo.

[B]

Yeah, but that's the thing. I don't care. As long as you say. As long as you say, like, which. Maybe I'm, like, now giving ridiculous amounts of permission. As long as you say photos not my own or photos from Pinterest.

[A]

That's true.

[B]

If that's true, really, I'm not gonna get bent out of shape. Honestly.

[A]

What are the odds that somebody. I feel like it's very rare that somebody is seeing that photo in its. In its formatted Marketing collage, that it's being used to sell Whatever. It's being sold whatever. What are the odds that somebody sees the credit because they credited you somehow and then they. They find you and all of a sudden they've. They've discovered upon us a fan? Well, actually, maybe. Maybe. But, like, are you gonna actually get either, like, a follower or a. A potential inquiry Yeah.

[B]

I think from the only time I've ever gotten bent out of shape if somebody's used a photo of mine for, like, inspo is I. I had one instance where somebody was, like, marketing it as if it was their own.

[A]

Oh, that.

[B]

That was a problem.

[A]

But from Pinterest.

[B]

Yeah. I'm sorry. Like, yeah, photos. Not my own photos to show Inspo. Photos from Pinterest, like, however you want to. Like, phrase that. I'm sorry. I don't care. I understand.

[A]

I. I also don't care. I. I get the. Why other people would care. Yeah. It's just a lot of ton of work.

[B]

It's just. Yeah, but I. I agree. I, like, clearly we put in the work to do that. I think that is the best course of action, especially if, you know, here's the thing. If I'm pulling a photo from like, like, like Annie Graham or. Or like Jaylee D. Like Jaylee Flood, like, friends of ours or people who. I know. I know this photo is coming from this person. I saw them do this shoot. Esther Cannon. Like, this was an inspo of mine, and I know who that person is off the top of my head. I'm going to freaking credit them.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

If I'm having to dig through piles and piles and piles and piles and piles of links through Pinterest, reverse image searching, doing a million just to get.

[A]

To a Tumblr that's like. Like someone uploaded it in 2000 and.

[B]

Hours and hours and hours and hours and hours and hours of work trying to figure out who the original person was who took this freaking photo 15 years ago, there is an element that I'm like, I.

Is this is obnoxious. But again, if I'm pulling a photo from somebody else, and I know and in general will credit everyone, but also, like, I like when I'm saying, like, I don't care if you say photos not my own. If you're actually going to screenshot and pull a photo from, like, my website or my Instagram and, you know, it's my nine. I'm sorry. Credit me.

[A]

Well, I almost think this hot take, though, is. Is saying you should not use somebody else's photo ever. At all. Ever. And to that person that has that specific opinion, I would say, okay, I.

[B]

Dare you to style shoot, then.

[A]

Yeah, you've never. So immediately, I can tell you never planned a style shoot. You're probably also the person who would say styled shoots are cheating. So I know everything about you that I need to know.

[B]

You know what? Live your life.

[A]

Live your life.

[B]

Sounds very difficult.

[A]

But I would say so. So you're telling me that in order to then sell a styled shoot or. Or market one for profitability, I need to now go out and. And do basically a private styled shoot for myself just to get. But here's the thing for, here's the style shoot that I will then market.

[B]

No, no, no, here's the thing. How are you even going to get. Get the correct cake or the correct tablescape? How are you going to explain to the planner? Well, because florist.

[A]

Because you could. I, I think, I think they're saying if you're earning money, if you sent in a private email to a florist of saying, hey, I want these florals, this is what it looks like. I'm. I think that they're saying would be fine. They're saying for marketing publicly, don't use other people's photos.

[B]

We're also talking about styled shoot. Let's even just say, like, hey, I want to do this mini session vibe and I'm pulling, you know, in spo.

[A]

Of this person that has this particular take. I think would say you have to suck it up and you have to create it yourself in order to market it. And to that I say, no, if.

[B]

You want to do that, that's great. That's fantastic.

[A]

You're welcome to do that. I will go to Pinterest.

[B]

I just. That is. Yeah, there's. Yeah. I just don't have an issue with somebody taking.

Inspiration images, especially if they're very clear that here is the inspo. And this is not credit to these other photographers. I just, I think that's a fantastic way to showcase the vision that you have that you want to execute. All right, moving on.

[A]

Next one is photographers spend too much time marketing to other photographers. Yes.

[B]

Yep.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

Okay. Especially I think it's so easy to accidentally get caught up. You think that you're reaching your ideal audience.

[A]

It's probably because so many photographers get into education, which we're going to touch on that in the next one. But so there are a lot of photographers that also genuinely offer educational things for photographers, whether it's presets, whether it's PDF guides.

[B]

But I also think because as a photographer, very often we get onto photographer algorithms because we're seeing like human reels for photographers or like a relatable TikTok or just different things.

[A]

And we want to share it because it resonates with us.

[B]

What we don't real is that we've accidentally put ourselves into an algorithm that then we think that that's the content that we should be creating as a photographer. But we're realizing we're completely missing the ideal client of the bride or the groom or the couple or the family or the senior or whoever.

[A]

There is a small, small, small percentage for some photographers where your ideal client might be other artists. Artists or other photographers.

[B]

Well yeah, there's not to say that other photographers couldn't hire you to be.

[A]

Their photographer, but that's not the majority.

[B]

You're not trying to be like here's what's in my gear bag like type of content 247 unless you actively sell.

[A]

Or like in my opinion you should not be creating photography content like that unless you are an educator of some sort. Meaning that you sell a course, you offer coaching for photographerships, you offer presets, you offer PDF guides, you do something that serves that because then, then therefore they are your ideal client.

[B]

But even then I would balance that very carefully with all the other content reaching your ideal unless you pivoted to.

[A]

Purely only be a photography business coach.

[B]

Yeah, we've seen that, we've seen that mistake a lot. So I think we would very much agree with that one.

[A]

Uh huh. A hundred percent. Okay, last one.

[B]

Education has become a crutch for burnt out photographers.

That's really savage.

[A]

I don't know how that came to find its way on this outline. I genuinely can't. But I think it is a buzzy. Okay. I feel like in the industry.

I feel like everybody and their mother, us included so I'm not immune from this at all but like I think everyone and their mother the pipeline is use education as like the next step. The next step for. Oh I've outgrown. It's probably because. Because photography is an in person. I exchange my time for money service. There's only so many ways you can scale, scale that you can have an associate team.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Or, or an entire industry team. You could, you could go that route where you have like, like 10 associates all shooting for you. And like obviously that is physically a way to scale but I feel like other than that the only other way within the photography realm, I mean there's.

[B]

Obviously like print sequences and, and different things like that but still you're limited to the number of clients.

[A]

Yes, yes. It's like it will Alba. Yeah you can, you can make more money in that way but like to scale and make like money while you sleep in theory.

In the photography industry specific specifically I feel like the natural next step that people think of is like oh I have Done this thing. Now I will teach this thing. Which isn't bad. We've clearly done it. But the, the way that's phrased, education has become a crutch for burnt out photographers. Meaning that like when you no longer want to do weddings because you're over it, you just say, oh, I will.

[B]

Teach somebody else had to do weddings. What do you, what, what's your like bottom line opinion on that? Yes or no? You agree or disagree?

[A]

I don't know if I would phrase it like burnt out. I don't know if I would phrase it the exact same way that that sentence is phrased. Yeah. But I would, I would probably agree that I think people just naturally think that that has to be the next step or the next step that they want.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Without really thinking about the hard work that will entail and the fact that so often I think that I think that's also linked in, in people's minds with passive income.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And that, that's just like, oh, I want to make money while I sleep. I want preset sales to come in or I want like digital course sales to come in. And I think they think that that's just like gonna happen.

[B]

Like the amount of, the amount of.

[A]

Past coaching students I've had or not even past coaching. Just like people in the industry that I've heard of that are like, I want to get into education because. Which is a great. Obviously we did it. Yeah. Like people want to get out of the. Exchanging time for money.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Like block. And so they, I think they want to be like, oh, I want to start selling like a PDF ebook situation.

And make money doing that. And it's like, okay, but if that's for other photographers, like I want to do a checklist on what's in my gear bag and sell it or whatever. If, if they've never built a brand to then pivot to that does that like, then it's like they expect money to come in when like they've never.

[B]

Also, you still. It's a, it's. Unless you build out automated funnels and back end for those products, it's still active work. You still have to market and promote those products or mentor sessions or whatever.

[A]

Yeah. Which is a form of changing time for money.

[B]

You're shifting lanes. I, I disagree that. That like again with the phrasing, like it's a crutch for burnt out photographers. No, I. Has. Has somebody used it as a burnt out photographer as the next thing in their business.

[A]

Right.

[B]

Sure. Absolutely. I'm not saying that Never happens. I'm just saying I don't. That's not a point.

[A]

I think that's the only way that people get into.

[B]

No, but I do agree it's interesting looking back.

At like when we like however many years ago I, to be.

[A]

Honest, when we got into education, I don't even think we were at what I would consider like the peak or like the, the top. Like I had not been doing full time weddings for that long.

[B]

Well, same. But I'm also. That wasn't what I was saying. Well, there's truth to that. But also I'm like the pipeline of photographer to educator was not, not an established thing at the time of us doing it.

[A]

Yeah, that's true.

[B]

Like it that it has become such a, like, like you're saying like the, the almost expected route.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

For a photographer is get into photography, build to a certain point, get into education. Like that's almost like the, like the pipeline.

[A]

Now I wonder if it's a part of the fact that it is a very physically demanding. Yeah. Maybe that's more so wedding. But, but even if you're like a no matter what.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Going out, being on your feet oftentimes for hours at a time is something that like are you going to realistically be able to do that when you're 50 or are you going to want to do it when you have a family and children and you're away every single Saturday? So I've always viewed photography, wedding photography specifically as something that's like this might not be lifelong, long term something that I want to be doing. And so I think with that mindset people are like, okay, well how do I, how do I transition that into something that still makes me money without completely shifting industries.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Although ironically I feel like as you as an entrepreneur, if you have the entrepreneurship bug and you know how to build a business.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You can usually do that in other ways.

[B]

I think that's the biggest thing I would say here. I'm not at all a, a person who's like thinking that you know, the education space in photography like industry, what should be gatekept or exclusive or whatever. I think I literally am like, I don't care if you've shot done photography for like a year and you have somebody who's like how do I operate my camera on manual? And you're like, let me help you. Phenomenal. I think it's incredible to have mentors to, you know, be pouring into the people who are coming up, you know, behind you, beside you, whatever. I am not at all saying like, don't get into education. However, I do wish that the. The perspective that that is the only pipeline for a photographer. I wish that that was broken simply because a lot of people, like you're saying a lot of people what they're actually ultimately wanting probably does not line up with getting into the. The education space. I think at the end of the day, I just wish more photographers, entrepreneurs understood that there are other routes to build diversified income streams, to segue into other avenues of entrepreneurship, to like, I just, I think I wish that it weren't.

The expected pipeline. Not that it's a bad one, but that it's not always the fit for everyone.

[A]

And also I think there could be an element of some people wanting. Cause they're like, oh, the money's in education. I'm a make bank. And it's like that's not the, the. The mindset or part posture behind why if you get into education, it should purely be because you genuinely have a heart to help other people. If you're not wanting to genuinely do that and you're just doing it for the money, then you should not be doing it.

[B]

Yeah, that's a word right there.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

All right, friend. Hopefully that was fun. And we got to spill a lot.

[A]

We started off so well. No, we just maintained the spice throughout the whole thing.

[B]

Hopefully this was fun though. Kind of getting a peek into our thoughts on some of the industry hot takes. And we would love to hear your thoughts. So if you are not already in the Heart and Hustle Facebook group, come join the Facebook group chit chat in there. And then we also have a group DM on Instagram. It is not a broadcast channel. It is a literal group DM where we are chatting back and forth. So come join that on Instagram and share your thoughts. Share your take on this. Do you disagree with us? Do you agree with us? Us? What, what's your perspective? What's your experience? We want to hear all the things. So make sure to join that awesome.

[A]

And we will see you on the next episode.