465: Not Getting Bookings? Practical Steps to Change That Today with Ben Hartley

Summary

Podcast Summary: "Not Getting Bookings? Practical Steps to Change That Today with Ben Hartley"

The Heart & Hustle Podcast – Ep 465 (Released Dec 30, 2025)
Hosts: Evie McLeod & Lindsay Roman
Guest: Ben Hartley

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Episode Overview

This high-energy episode features renowned photography educator and entrepreneur Ben Hartley, who joins Evie and Lindsay to tackle a challenge faced by many creative entrepreneurs—how to get more bookings when inquiries run dry. Although the conversation is rooted in photography business advice, the actionable insights, mindset shifts, and marketing tactics Ben shares are relevant for any service provider. The episode covers: website portfolios, fast inquiry responses, AI tools, lead generation tactics, social media presence, client boundaries, promotional offers, and the strategic use of Google reviews.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Ben Hartley's Background & Journey (07:52–16:14)

• Who is Ben Hartley?

  • Wedding photographer and educator for 15+ years, founder of Style & Story, podcast host, and family man with three kids and a wife, Leslie.

• His Business Evolution:

  • Started in small-town ministry, shifted from video production to photography out of necessity (“I picked up a camera to start photographing in order to essentially get Leslie and myself someplace different.” 12:24).
  • Built and scaled a large photography team before realizing the need for boundaries and family balance, eventually moving to Florida and scaling back.

Notable quote:

“I think a lot of photographers … eventually they look around and realize what they've built is like prison walls.” (14:14, Ben)

2. Building a Booking-Optimized Business

A. Website & Portfolio Consistency (20:04–21:14)

• Your chance to make an impression is under a second.
• Inconsistent, outdated, or mixed-style portfolios send red flags to buyers.
• “You haven’t updated your portfolio … it just communicates risk and breeds distrust. Right now in 2025, we are probably at the highest peak of risk aversion… Buyers, they need safety, they need trust.” (20:23, Ben)

B. Super Fast Inquiry Response (21:55–26:30)

• Data backs up speed to reply—responding within 5 minutes increases likelihood of booking by 21x.
• Auto-responders are not enough; meaningful, authentic replies are crucial.

C. Leverage AI & Templates (24:46–28:08)

• Ben uses custom-trained AI to automate, personalize, and promptly send inquiry replies in his voice, prepping expectations for a follow-up video text.
• “I have built out an AI tool that does this for me...within a five to seven minute window. It will respond with a customized, tailored to my tone, my voice, my language…” (25:32, Ben)

D. Texting Inquiries & Setting Boundaries (29:09–35:04)

• Fastest personal connection wins bookings—Ben uses video text messages immediately.
• For boundaries: He keeps an “office line” (e.g., Google Voice) separate from his personal number.
• “You have to be willing to then establish a boundary afterwards. And probably most people don’t want to do that… I have no problem just saying like, 'Hey, I'm on vacation...text the office number.'” (32:15, Ben)

E. Showing Up Consistently on Social & Beyond (22:57–23:52)

• Most photographers post once or twice about an offer and expect results—3% may see a post.
• Need to “show up far more” and get over fear of being annoying: “If you are annoying someone, that person wasn’t gonna hire you anyhow…” (23:08, Ben)

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3. What If Bookings are Dead? Generating Leads Fast (41:23–47:07)

Three Primary Fast-Lead Strategies:

1. Paid Ads—Expensive and require patience/testing; “Expect to spend at least $1,000 and maybe get results. Maybe.” (43:14, Ben)

2. Promotional Event or Irresistible Offer

   • Requires a truly exciting (not tiny) incentive and clear, compelling reason (“It has to be an insanely good deal. If you want leads fast.” 44:20, Ben)
   • Must have a reason, time limit, and scarcity to avoid brand “devaluation.”

3. Manual Outreach/Cold DMing—“Knocking on doors,” providing value, not just pitching:

   • “If you DM 100 people a day … maybe one out of a hundred will reply back and say thank you. And that is now my foot in the door.” (45:14, Ben)

4. Wedding Trade Shows (especially for photographers)

   • Old-school but high-impact: “The more that AI ramps up, the more valuable your face becomes… People want to buy from people.” (47:03, Ben)

Mindset note:

“Far too many people want things fast and they've got very low standards for themselves. They have high expectations. They have low standards. They're unwilling to do what it takes…” (42:26, Ben)

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4. On Promotions, Discounts & Ego (47:08–51:29)

• Don’t worry about “brand devaluation” if no one’s buying:

  “You don’t have a brand … how are you going to devalue something that no one's buying?” (47:29, Ben)

• Promotions only harm when you make them a habit/unlimited or offer them without a reason.
• Ego often stops people from taking needed action:
  • “Ego is the Enemy”—Book recommendation: Ryan Holiday.

5. THE Google Review Strategy (51:30–65:00)

Why Google Reviews? (52:59–53:59)

• Google is the top, trusted review site—more visible for SEO and valuable for booking trust than Facebook, WeddingWire, Yelp, etc.
• “Google is the arbiter of truth … that is where I would be, I’d be building them up… The more that reviews speak to Ben and not Ben’s images, the better.” (53:59, Ben)

How to Ask for Reviews—Timing & Method (56:05–62:58)

• DO NOT: Wait till after you deliver the full gallery—excitement fades, more nitpicking, fewer/bad reviews.
• INSTEAD: Ask at the climax—right after the shoot/wedding, when delivering a sneak peek during emotional high.
  • Tie it to a meaningful “give” (reciprocity):
  • “As a small business owner, a single review can make the biggest difference. ...It would mean the world if you would share about the experience.” (58:29, Ben)
  • Direct link, specific ask (“review the experience, not just the photos”).

Psychology & Tactics

• Give one single call to action/link. Don’t split attention (“drop off” increases if you offer multiple review platforms).
• Acknowledge not everyone will do it; that’s OK.
• Frame your request personally and with gratitude. Let clients know how much it matters.

“You want to ask for the review at the highest point of gratification—the climax of the experience.” (56:43, Ben)

Results

• After years of testing, Ben reports the “sneak peek” review approach yields higher quantity and quality (“Not all reviews are created equal… what they're saying, is it a five-star review?” 63:51, Ben).

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Notable Quotes & Moments

• On letting go to grow:
  • “If you want to grow, you’ve got to let go of the reins… Someone can do it better than you.” (17:50, Ben)
• On boundaries and connection:
  • “Whoever is the fastest at creating personal connection will separate themselves…” (29:45, Ben)
• On trade shows and being present:
  • “The more inauthentic … content machines keep getting produced … the more valuable your face becomes.” (47:03, Ben)
• On ego vs. results:
  • “Don’t stop doing the right thing in order to appease the lowest common denominator.” (55:17, Ben)
• On reviews and their timing:
  • “The reviews tend to be a lot better too, because they're like, ‘please, take all the time you need, you just obsess, here's my review, you're the best’.” (62:18, Ben)

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• 00:00–04:06 | Intro, Ben’s Garage Vibes & Humor
• 07:52–10:23 | Ben’s Backstory: Small towns, video, family, photography
• 13:07–16:14 | Building and scaling back the team, boundaries
• 20:04–21:55 | Website/Portfolio Consistency—First Impression
• 21:55–24:46 | Speed of Inquiry Response & AI Tools
• 29:09–35:04 | Personal Connection via Text/Boundaries
• 41:23–47:07 | What to Do When Bookings are Dead
• 47:08–51:29 | Promotions, Brand Value, & Ego
• 51:30–65:00 | Deep Dive: Google Reviews—Why, When, How

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Resources & Where to Find Ben Hartley

• 30 Creative Ways to Get Clients – Book Solid “Blitz”:
  • sixfigurephotography.com/blitz
• Podcast: Six Figure Photography Podcast

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Tone & Takeaway

Expect humor and straight talk (“Delulu is the Sululu!”), actionable advice, and some loving, fire-under-your-butt truth. Ben is equal parts strategic, innovative, and no-nonsense, challenging listeners to raise their standards and do the work.

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If you’re struggling with bookings, this episode offers both mindset and tactical shifts that can help you change your results—today. Whether it’s tightening up your portfolio, responding lightning-fast in a personal way, running a creative promo, showing up more, or getting rave Google reviews, the tools are all here.

Transcript

[Lindsay Roman]

You're listening to the Heart Hustle podcast. We are your hosts, Evie McLeod and Lindsay Roman. Welcome to the show, my friend. Today we have the icon of the photography education industry. We have the one, the only Ben Hartley on the show now. He was a grand old time. If you don't know Ben, let me break it down for you. Ben Hartley is a photography educator, speaker and creative entrepreneur on a mission to help photographers build thriving businesses that feel fuel both passion and profit. And as the founder of award winning studio Style and Story, Ben blends storytelling and strategy to elevate both his art and his students. And through his courses, workshops and podcasts, Ben delivers a practical, high energy approach to equip photographers with the tools to master marketing, serve generously and grow a business they love without burning out. It was a great episode. Can I just say, I know I'm saying this before you've listened to it, but Ben is, was a good time.

[Evie McLeod]

The man, the myth, the legend. And we got to have the coolest conversation with him. We really, I mean, we kind of squirreled a little in multiple directions, but the main heart of what we talked about was for our photographers. But honestly, any service provider could get so much out of this.

[Lindsay Roman]

Yeah.

[Evie McLeod]

If you are struggling with low bookings right now and we kind of hit it from a few different angles. If you are like, hey, I need quickbookings right now. Ben answered several different strategies to really increase those bookings. If you are in the place where you're like, hey, I'm not even getting leads. So I let's take a step back. I need to increase my leads. Ben then broke down multiple strategies on increasing your leads. We had conversations about inquiry responses, texting inquiry responses. We talked about boundaries in business. We talked about social media, we talked about Facebook ads. We then at the end of the episode had a whole conversation about getting reviews and the best time and the strategies and, and he whipped out a.

[Lindsay Roman]

Very unpopular, like, I don't even know, but it's going to blow your mind. And if you don't listen, if you're a photographer specifically, specifically a wedding. Well, no, any photographer. And you don't listen to the part about Google reviews.

[Evie McLeod]

I'm not gonna lie, I listen to the whole episode. Do not skip.

[Lindsay Roman]

Yeah, this is a mandatory episode for any episode. Also, it's a good time. He has like a pirate dog behind him. So if you're not listening on YouTube, you need to really watch just to.

[Evie McLeod]

Stare at the dog the whole time.

[Lindsay Roman]

It's just a great time.

[Evie McLeod]

We had a Great conversation with Ben. He is incredibly good at what he does and we just got to receive from him all the goodness, all the wisdom, all the strategies today. So we will stop talking so that Ben can deliver the goodness. Let's dive in. Let me guess. You're sitting on your couch, feeling lonely as heck and desperately looking for a business BFF who actually knows what you're going through as an entrepreneur. Once upon a time, we were in your shoes and feeling that exact same loneliness.

[Lindsay Roman]

Yep, we were. Can confirm. Before Evie and I met each other and grew our friendship to what it is today, we felt like we were just exhausting every option to find fellow creative entrepreneurs. And it can just be discouraging, spinning your wheels with little to no progress. But I just want to encourage you today there is hope and your desire for community is normal because you were designed for community.

[Evie McLeod]

Which is why we've created a freebie for you, how to build community. As an entrepreneur, we give you all of our tips and tricks to finding your people. All you have to do is go to theheartuniversity.com community to download that free guide today. Hey.

[Lindsay Roman]

Hey. I'm Lindsey Roman.

[Evie McLeod]

And I'm Evie McLeod. And we are family and legacy focused serial entrepreneurs and the founders of the Hart University, a business education company with a mission to help you thrive in your business and life.

[Lindsay Roman]

Welcome to our entrepreneur cocktail hour where business and marketing strategies meet faith, real talk and raw in life changing conversations.

[Evie McLeod]

At the end of the day, we are all in this together, figuring out how to navigate the ups and downs, the messy and the beautiful and everything in between. This is a community where you can come as you are, get inspired and walk away equipped to build a legacy filled life.

[Lindsay Roman]

You're listening to the Heart and Hustle podcast. Okay, but Noah, talk about your keyboard here. So, like, I know, obviously. So you programmed well.

[Ben Hartley]

First off, welcome to my garage. My. This is my. This is literally my storage garage. We got my Halloween decor here. This is also where I record the podcast, my own podcast. And. But I have a little soundboard and so if. If anybody ever swears, I always miss it, but I always come in with the end. You know what I mean?

[Lindsay Roman]

And it's a great bit in the moment.

[Ben Hartley]

Yeah, I never do it in the moment. They say the F word and then I believe afterwards and it's such a great little bit. So I like that one. Anytime, anytime I'm jazzed about something, I go for the horn. I won't do the horn again because it's. It's A little excessive. If anybody mentions another company that is a competitor to one that I rep. No joke. I literally do this. Nope, nope, not that one. This one. There it is. Yeah. So careful who you mention because I will just blast them. And this is why companies, they tend to not want to work with me because I just. I don't care.

[Lindsay Roman]

Or, or they do want to work with you, because if you. If you get on your good side, you will give the cheer. Hands.

[Ben Hartley]

Yeah, it's true. But as long as you don't flip like, you gotta. You gotta keep not sucking because if you start sucking, I'm gonna. I'm abandoning ship.

[Evie McLeod]

You're gonna burn that bridge.

[Ben Hartley]

I will. I will burn the bridge. Cause I don't wanna keep recommending shitty companies. Oh, hold on. Okay, there it is. You. And so I'll. I'll burn the. I'll burn the bridge.

[Evie McLeod]

I literally love it so much.

[Lindsay Roman]

I love this so much. Oh my gosh.

[Evie McLeod]

This energy is absolutely like. I feel like I just had this.

[Lindsay Roman]

Is everything I needed post lunch.

[Evie McLeod]

Shot of espresso straight in my veins right now is what I'm feeling.

[Ben Hartley]

It's a little pick me up, isn't it? Because sometimes it's the lunch lull, you know, especially you get some turkey.

[Evie McLeod]

Ben's giving us his lunch order at this moment. I'll leave it at doordash to your house. Don't worry.

[Lindsay Roman]

Well, we just discovered both in Florida.

[Evie McLeod]

Yeah.

[Lindsay Roman]

Which is fun. That's a fun.

[Ben Hartley]

In Miami. Where are you at?

[Lindsay Roman]

We're not. Well, we're on the opposite coast of you. We're a little south of St. Augustine.

[Evie McLeod]

We're north. Yeah.

[Ben Hartley]

Yeah.

[Evie McLeod]

It's fun.

[Lindsay Roman]

You're getting all the hurricanes.

[Ben Hartley]

Well, no, you're getting all the hurricanes that. I don't get. Hurricanes.

[Lindsay Roman]

That's fair. That's fair.

[Ben Hartley]

You know, we were just.

[Lindsay Roman]

Who are we talking to? Was it the previous guest that we were talking about or Anna Maria Island? And we were like, that coast south of Tampa always gets hit. It feels like.

[Ben Hartley]

Yeah, we've been pretty fortunate. I'm a little bit inland, but. Yeah, anytime a hurricane hits here, I just go to your side. We go to Vero Beach. We have some family over there.

[Lindsay Roman]

Yeah. It's fun.

[Ben Hartley]

And then. And then vice versa. They get hit and then they come to us and it's kind of worked out.

[Evie McLeod]

There you go.

[Lindsay Roman]

It does.

[Evie McLeod]

Awesome. Well, we'll just show up in your garage the next time a hurricane.

[Lindsay Roman]

Maybe we're hanging out with Santa. If you're watching guys, you really need to watch YouTube if you're not right now. Just because Ben's a whole vibe with his pirate dog. He has Santa off screen. I don't know.

[Ben Hartley]

Just offset.

[Lindsay Roman]

Just offset.

[Ben Hartley]

Santa is my Noah over there.

[Evie McLeod]

By the way, that's your saddle frame.

[Ben Hartley]

Yeah.

[Lindsay Roman]

Oh, I love it.

[Evie McLeod]

Okay, that's perfect. Ben, you are just an icon and a legend in this industry and in this space. Obviously you have just a reputation all of your own, but honestly, for anybody.

[Lindsay Roman]

That'S listening to this and you don't know the name Ben Hartley, like, where have you been? Truly kindly, kindly.

[Evie McLeod]

But honestly, where have you been? So, Ben, could you kind give maybe for that person, our dear listener who.

[Lindsay Roman]

Has grown up in a cave, a.

[Evie McLeod]

Little introduction to you, who you are, what you do, all the things.

[Ben Hartley]

Oh, my word. Yeah, I mean, I think most people haven't heard me. Let's just start with that. Like, if you haven't heard, that's so good. I am here for the people who have not heard of me. It's like an opportunity to change, you know, an opinion. Everybody else has their opinions already set, so I'm looking forward to establishing some new. Yeah. So where do we begin? What would you like to know first? I've been a wedding photographer for, like, 15 plus years. I have a family. I've got three kids. I've got twin boys. That's rad for wife. I have a dog.

[Lindsay Roman]

Not the one behind you.

[Ben Hartley]

Yeah. Not this one. Nope. And I have a podcast as well. I've been helping photographers for a little over 10 years, and I've been enjoying every second of it. This has been an incredible industry, and it's been so fun to just kind of, like, dig in and go deep into. Into this niche.

[Evie McLeod]

I love it.

[Lindsay Roman]

Well, amazing.

[Evie McLeod]

I said this before we started recording, but, Ben, I started listening to your podcast. Like, I genuinely. I think it was 2015, which was probably right around when you started. I don't know. It was when I was starting my photography career and I was looking for, like, education, photography education, business education, and I started listening to your podcast. So this is 10 years later, like, full circle moment.

[Ben Hartley]

I'm surprised I'm still here. I feel like most educators aren't still here.

[Evie McLeod]

Yeah, I mean, true.

[Ben Hartley]

Wait, aren't, Aren't. I mean, ones from 10 years ago? Nah.

[Lindsay Roman]

Yeah, I would agree with that.

[Evie McLeod]

Well, especially I feel like I grew up.

[Lindsay Roman]

I feel like in the Ben Sasso era, you know, we remember him.

[Evie McLeod]

Yes, I do.

[Ben Hartley]

Yeah.

[Lindsay Roman]

Yeah. Doesn't he.

[Evie McLeod]

He still does.

[Lindsay Roman]

Maybe that I'M probably so offensive now if he, if he still is doing stuff. I don't know. But I agree to your point.

[Ben Hartley]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I think you may, you may be more offensive than you mean to be.

[Lindsay Roman]

Okay. Apologies. Okay. I don't know.

[Evie McLeod]

I haven't, I haven't been in that ecosystem.

[Lindsay Roman]

Yeah, no, I haven't. Okay, question though. When you, when did you start your photography career in general?

[Ben Hartley]

Okay, let me see here. I got married 2010, and that's kind of when things really started, I guess I would say. And it's kind of like how I kind of got obsessed with marketing and everything else. So do we want to go back? Do we want a little time machine all the way back down?

[Lindsay Roman]

Yes, we do.

[Ben Hartley]

Yeah. So, okay, so my wife and I were just married and we were in full time ministry when we first got married. And so we had very different experiences in that space. Right. So I had a great experience and my wife Leslie did not have a great experience. And then on top of it, we were in like a small town. And it's kind of one of those small towns that like, you go to the store and you're seeing like half of everybody who you don't like. Do you know what I mean? And it's like everywhere we turned, it was kind of just like this constant, like this, like poke anybody like, else from a small town, you know what I'm saying? It's just like everywhere you go, it's just like, man, bad vibes. And so I was working before I got into photography. I was a videographer. So I was doing like commercial video production. I was going on set filming TV commercials, doing like animation and motion graphics. And that is how I learned how to operate a camera. And it was great. It paid great money, it was an amazing job. And yet I kind of needed to get my family out of dodge. Like, we needed to get out. And so while I loved this job and it paid great money, I picked up a camera to start photographing in order to essentially like say no, in order to get Leslie and myself someplace different. And so it really, my obsession with marketing was out of the need to just get out of a toxic space, to be quite honest. And so like, you know, if you're looking for like a. People would say, like, you know, start with your. Why? Like, I didn't really just start with my. There was no like, oh, man, I wonder why I'm a photographer. It was like, I'm, I'm gonna do this to make enough money so I can quit My job and we can move. Yeah, like that was the why. And so because of that, I mean, I, I was thrashing, I was testing, I was learning, I was testing. I was learning every single thing. I was just trying to do whatever I could to get leads in the door to pay me money so I could move my family to a new city. That was literally the reason, that was the impetus. And then along the way, it turns out I'm decent at making things look good. I love people. And so it really started to stick. And Leslie and I, we just pushed further into photography after we moved and kept growing the team.

[Lindsay Roman]

Amazing. Here you are. I love it.

[Evie McLeod]

Wait, can I ask a clarifying. You said Leslie and I kept pushing and building the team. Can you give a little bit of where you are now? Have you and Leslie built your business together? Like, what has this looked like? What does your business model look like now? Do you still do weddings? Do you mostly do education?

[Ben Hartley]

Yeah, good question. Okay, so we've, there's been a lot of cycles. Okay.

[Lindsay Roman]

Yeah.

[Ben Hartley]

So it was just me to begin with and then Leslie joined the team. It was Leslie and I, we were Ben and Les photography. We then hired our first photography for photographer team under us. It really wasn't an associate team because they were full time staff. We were the same price. It was just, hey, they're with us. And, and they were, it was a, it was a confusing time because we were Ben and Les and they were Ben and Lace.

[Lindsay Roman]

Oh no.

[Ben Hartley]

What are you gonna get at your wedding? I don't know.

[Evie McLeod]

Very confusing.

[Ben Hartley]

It was a good time. But then we, we rebranded to style and story. And at one point we kept growing the team and, and so we had five full time photographers on, on our team. We were doing like 50 wedding. I'm not 50. I'm sorry. 100 weddings a year. And, and we started just like pumping out the babies. It's really, I mean, I think it was the exponential growth of. So we had our first daughter, 2014, and then the, the unanticipated exponential growth of twins. And it was at that point that like I realized, and this is actually a good, a good kind of like thing. I think a lot of photographers, they, they're building and they're building and they're building and they're building and they're building and eventually they look around and they realize that what they've built is like prison walls. Yeah, they're like, oh my gosh, I've got to keep posting on Instagram every day for the next five to 10 years. And that was definitely me. Right. So, like, we had a large team, multiple, like I said, you know, all these weddings we were doing, and now I've got twins, and there was just like, there was a pretty big crushing weight, you know, and. And so we decided to scale back on the team and just kind of cut everything, you know, just like, cut it all back and kind of rebuild our life how we wanted to, that would better serve our family and the kids and myself to be home with them more. And so. And so then we moved. We moved to Florida at the same time and just kind of did a pretty solid reset. And so right now, not photographing weddings, my body is thankful for it. I feel like next year, maybe I'll. I'll start diving back in again. On weddings. I've been debating, like, do I want to do portraits, but do I do weddings? My body says portraits, my heart says weddings. What do you say?

[Evie McLeod]

I say follow your heart.

[Ben Hartley]

Yeah. Gut says portraits, heart says weddings. You know, we're back to the same thing.

[Evie McLeod]

Yeah, I'm so. I mean, you could do what we do. We shoot, like, max, five weddings a year.

[Ben Hartley]

Yeah.

[Lindsay Roman]

Yeah.

[Evie McLeod]

So it's like, I'm still doing what I absolutely, like, love in this season that, like, lights me up, but I'm not. I'm not, like, on my feet with all that gear every Saturday. I just.

[Lindsay Roman]

Well, I. I almost want to ask you. It sounds like, I guess you shared the story of, like, the photography side. How did the balance of education start coming into your story? And then as that happened. Well, we'll get to the. The topic eventually, maybe. But, like, maybe this is more a selfish question because, like, I feel like we've. And obviously I feel like it might be different for females than males, but I feel like the journey of doing photography and then becoming an educator or incorporating education into your business and then trying to balance both of those, and then now it seems like you just do education for the time being, but you're always like, oh, but I could pop back in. What's the balance of that, like, for you?

[Ben Hartley]

So, again, it's been a long journey. I think having a team has always given myself the ability to, like, I didn't have to juggle all the balls. I said, hey, you four juggle all the balls. And I'm going to focus on building this podcast. Like, so I've always had a team to. To delegate things to. I've always had an office manager. I've always had virtual assistants. I've always had, like, and I think this is. If you want to grow, you've got to let go of the reins. If there's any takeaway for a photographer who's listening, it's like, stop editing. And I get it, by the way. It's like, I know we're holding on to it, and we feel like nobody else could do it better. Listen, someone's. They can actually do it better than you. I know that you don't believe that they won't. Here's the thing. They're not going to do it the same as you. Yeah, but they're going to do it better.

[Evie McLeod]

Yeah.

[Ben Hartley]

And that's so hard for our own ego to like. But that's not how I would edit. I'm like, yeah, but this is better. Yeah. So I've always been really good at letting go of things. And so I guess that's probably how I did it. Was. Was outsourcing and delegating and bringing in help and also being willing to bet on myself. Meaning I think a lot of people are. Are afraid to maybe hire someone because they're like, well, if I hire someone now, I gotta pay their sal. I gotta pay the bills, and that's more money out. And I'm already bleeding money. How am I gonna. And I was just like, I. I know I'm gonna win. Like, I know I'm going to win now. This will allow me to win faster, further. And so, you know, there's a bit of that. It's a bit of delusion.

[Lindsay Roman]

So true. Feel like you have to be Delulu to be an entrepreneur. I wanted that to rhyme so bad.

[Evie McLeod]

Delulu is the Sululu.

[Lindsay Roman]

Well, I wanted to be like, you have to be Delulu to be an entrepreneur. New.

[Ben Hartley]

It works. I accept it. I totally accept it.

[Evie McLeod]

Oh, my gosh. Okay. Ben, you clearly have experience over the last 15 years of just knowing how to build a successful business, how to get inquiries, how to get bookings. And that's kind of. I mean, unless we want to sit on the education building outsourcing, which I would love to. Maybe we'll have to just drag Ben back here again. Drag in that one with Santa, our intention.

[Lindsay Roman]

And his pirate dog.

[Evie McLeod]

Yeah, he'll swap out the pirate dog for Santa on the next. Our intention for this conversation was to really, like, get to the heart that of the question that almost every photographer has in one season or another. And it's, how do I boost my bookings? Like, what. What do I do? I feel like you have so much experience. Do you have something immediately in your experience that you're like, these are two or three simple things that I feel like so many photographers overlook. They, they're neglecting, they're, you know, pushing to the side, whatever that I truly believe could help you boost your bookings right now.

[Ben Hartley]

Sure. One, I kind of, It's a bit of a. Two, but I'll put it into one. Like people are going to decide whether or not they're even going to give you any time of day at all in like it's like a 1/10 of a second as soon as they land on your website.

[Evie McLeod]

Yeah.

[Ben Hartley]

And there's way too many photographers whose. Honestly your work. Like people, they're not going to hire you if you suck. And it may not even mean that your work isn't good. It just could be so inconsistent. I feel like most photographers listening probably have inconsistent, outdated work on their website. And so you haven't updated your portfolio or you've got like a look from 2020, like a certain editing style and then you have another editing style from 2025 and you get another editing sty. This weird kind of. You were on some stuff and so you went down a weird path in 2022. You like, and so there's inconsistency and it just, it only communicates risk.

[Lindsay Roman]

Yeah.

[Ben Hartley]

And breeds distrust.

[Lindsay Roman]

Yep.

[Ben Hartley]

And right now in 2025, we are probably at the highest peak of like risk aversion.

[Evie McLeod]

Yeah.

[Ben Hartley]

Like everything is risky, everything terrible is happening. And buyers, they need safety, they need trust. And so if your work is. And your brand is communicating anything other than that, you're in trouble. And so I would say, like, get, get a consistent editing style and update the portfolio. That's one thing I would say. I think everybody can do that. Right. I think everybody can do that. Number two, I would say is to. To reply faster. There's a couple stats that are, I think it's easy to say, like, oh yeah, of course, reply faster. But like 78% of buyers will hire photographer that responds to them.

[Evie McLeod]

Yep.

[Ben Hartley]

If you reach out in the first five minutes, it is 21 times more likely that that lead will turn into a customer. And we're over here being like, but I need more leads. Listen, 21 times. You can have 21 times more leads. Essentially there'll be 21 times more likely to hire you if you just actually replied in the first five minutes in a meaningful way. By the way, not some bullshit. Hold on. Not some BS like AutoResp that's like, hey, I got your message. Thanks. I'm out right now. Like, no, that's not it.

[Lindsay Roman]

Yeah, right.

[Ben Hartley]

And so I would say that. And then the third would be, like, to actually show up the amount of photographers that I talked to. That. Then I did this. You know, I did the whatever. I did the mini sessions, I did the giveaway, I did the promotion, I did the whatever, and I didn't get anything. I said, oh, man, that sucks. I'm so bummed. So real quick, where did you post about that? I posted about it on Instagram. I'm like, fantastic.

[Lindsay Roman]

Once.

[Ben Hartley]

How many times I made a post and I did a story. Great. For how many days? No, no, I just did it. I did that.

[Lindsay Roman]

Oh, my gosh.

[Ben Hartley]

You've got, like, people cannot hire you if they don't know you exist. And each time you post, maybe 3% of your audience sees it. Maybe that's, like, on a really good day. And so, like, you've got to show up far more. We have to, like, get over ourselves. Like, if you are annoying someone, that person wasn't gonna hire you anyhow. Like, I'm so okay. Annoying my Aunt Nancy. She's like, she doesn't like me anyhow. Like, we're all. We've been through this, Nancy, all right? We were on the cruise together. I know we didn't connect. So I'm okay annoying them, but I'm here for everybody else, you know?

[Evie McLeod]

Yeah, right.

[Lindsay Roman]

Okay, wait. I have so many questions.

[Ben Hartley]

I should probably change my aunt's name. I should have changed her name. I went with real name.

[Lindsay Roman]

You actually have a real name that wasn't just like a placebo name. Example is like, his actual.

[Evie McLeod]

It's okay, Ben. You can bleep it out at this point. It's all good.

[Lindsay Roman]

I mean, okay, but is. Is Aunt Nancy listening to the Heart and Hustle podcast? You're probably in a safe space.

[Ben Hartley]

Yeah, I think so.

[Lindsay Roman]

I think we're okay. I think we're okay. I have many follow ups based on what you said because, like, I'm. I'm like, okay, I'm jamming everything that came out of your mouth. Gold. Pure gold. Great. Let's go to, like, when you say respond in five minutes. I would fully agree with that. I think, like, we've always preached, like, hey, the faster you respond, the. We also are a believer in, like, templates, which I think helps slightly. And when I mean templates, I mean like an email, like a template that then you tweak and doesn't sound like a template. So it does sound like that genuine, authentic response.

[Evie McLeod]

But this, if instead of sending the same thing from scratch every single time. You have like a system that works.

[Lindsay Roman]

Right, right, right. My question, and maybe this is actually maybe just purely a personal issue of mine. Being wordy, I always second guess myself because my template is just like a. A touch longer and I could shorten it up. Sure. But I just like, it's. It's a little long. And so I always get in my head and I'm like, if I actually. Which I could respond within five minutes, but I think it's obvious that I didn't actually type that many words in that sort of time in that short of time. And so it, it almost makes it seem like a template even more. That was the hyper niche of a question possible I could have asked.

[Evie McLeod]

You're basically being like, Ben, are you being exactly specific with your 5 minutes statement?

[Ben Hartley]

So it's 2025, and I have built out an AI tool that does this for me. And it will respond within a variable time that I give it within a five to seven minute window. It will respond with a customized, tailored to my tone, my voice, my language response to their inquiry. And it sends uniquely. And I trust it because I built it and it's freaking amazing. And what I do is I have it respond. And one of the portions of it is it lets them know that I'm out right now, but as soon as I get back into the studio, I'll send them a text. And so it's a nice candid message. I do connect with them on what's going on and what they've expressed. And then from there, that way I can get connected with them immediately and then I send them a video message via text.

[Lindsay Roman]

Okay, we need to unpack that so hard. Hold on, wait, so you're saying that you trust the AI completely without like looking at it first before it sends?

[Evie McLeod]

You don't approve it sends?

[Ben Hartley]

No, I don't trust AI. Trust my AI completely.

[Lindsay Roman]

Well, right.

[Ben Hartley]

I'm not just putting once and just like cross my fingers. Yeah, I do. Do. I do trust what I've built.

[Lindsay Roman]

Are you a tech wizard? Is this something available to us all?

[Ben Hartley]

I'm obsessed with this stuff for a small window of time, you know, and then just putting it through a lot of reps and training it. Like, AI is dumb in that it only knows what you feed it and train it.

[Evie McLeod]

Yep.

[Ben Hartley]

And so I've trained it on all the variables. So what if I don't have a wedding day picked? What if it's actually a vendor who's contacting me? What if it's a wedding, I don't want a photograph. What's a wedding that I'm unavailable for? What if it's a past client that just wants their photographs gallery reopened? What if it's like all the variables.

[Evie McLeod]

Wow.

[Ben Hartley]

Are. Are there. So. No, you don't have to be like a tech wizard. I'm actually, I'm. Can I, can I mention I'm going to host an AI workshop?

[Evie McLeod]

Yeah, please do.

[Ben Hartley]

Three, maybe four weeks. It's probably, by the time this goes out, it's probably already happened.

[Lindsay Roman]

I was like, I can actually guarantee. We told him before we started recording. We're batching like six months out.

[Ben Hartley]

It's gonna be like a year after that event.

[Lindsay Roman]

So.

[Ben Hartley]

Yeah, but. So I'm gonna, I'm gonna have already done it.

[Lindsay Roman]

It's gonna be great. And it. Flawless.

[Ben Hartley]

It was awesome. It was amazing. Yeah.

[Evie McLeod]

I love it. Okay.

[Ben Hartley]

Okay.

[Evie McLeod]

I have so many. I have so many. I have so many questions.

[Ben Hartley]

And now here's the thing is I don't have to like sit and wait and actually look at my inbox. It just does it.

[Lindsay Roman]

That's brilliant. Well, and it's. It's literally doing a customized job for you. Yeah. Is it clear that it's AI?

[Ben Hartley]

No.

[Evie McLeod]

Well, well, that's what I. Here's my. Here's my.

[Ben Hartley]

I'm okay with that. Yeah.

[Evie McLeod]

When you, when you said you have a section in the email that says like, hey, I'm out right now, but when I'm back, I'll send you a text, is that framing it like, I am still Ben writing this email? I am out of office at the moment. I wanted to shoot you a quick reply. Yeah. Is it phrased like that? Because when you said it, I almost thought you were saying like, this is Ben's assistant. He's out of office right now.

[Ben Hartley]

I frame it like me.

[Evie McLeod]

Okay.

[Ben Hartley]

Yeah. It's a very personal message.

[Evie McLeod]

Okay. I have a follow up question.

[Ben Hartley]

Ben's like, what is about to happen right now?

[Evie McLeod]

Our audience knows that Lindsay and I are pretty big believers and advocates for not giving your phone number or texting clients, keeping all communication to email. I didn't even think about that part until towards the end. Like, you know, prepare like the week before the wedding, the week before the shoot or whatever. Like, that's the point where we are like fans of like, hey, give out your number, whatever. That sounds like you are on the opposite side of that. That aisle.

[Ben Hartley]

Yeah.

[Lindsay Roman]

Okay.

[Evie McLeod]

Can you unpack that a little bit? Why. Why do you immediately start texting your.

[Ben Hartley]

Clients and because you have to. So I'm okay if you're not, by the way. It makes sense. I think it makes sense for a lot of people. Like. Yeah, to, to be that way. But kind of like I was expressing earlier, like, whoever is the fastest at creating personal connection will separate themselves from everybody else. Like if you want to get separated from the absolute sea of photographers that are bombarding them with quotes and low balls, the fastest that you can become an actual human and connect in, in like this way, the better. And so for me, I, I go straight to. I record a video of me wherever I'm at, I don't care. And I'll just be like, hey, it's me. I just got your message. Hi. Like now it will be so awkward and fun and I'll just send it over to them. And that alone, I think allows me to be 99.9% of my competition.

[Evie McLeod]

Yeah, yeah, but.

[Ben Hartley]

And I'm okay. I'm okay with sending my. The text. I'm okay with that. Now you can also do this over loom. So you don't have to use a text. You could use a video. Pardon me? Video loom. Bonjoro. Those are both fine, but I still think a text beats that.

[Evie McLeod]

Yeah.

[Ben Hartley]

Like it feels. Yeah. I mean, I guess I use the word intimate. Feels more connected. It feels more like most people aren't going to do this.

[Evie McLeod]

Right.

[Ben Hartley]

And so I'm willing to do it. And I haven't had any like, I mean I really haven't had any issues with it.

[Lindsay Roman]

Well, that's what that was. My question is like we like have you ever. Obviously because that starts even before they booked you and so say now they book you now that they have access to your phone number. Do you find any like boundary crossing as far as like life and, and work and trying to keep like your personal life, your personal life and then work, work when clients are there for then texting you wedding questions. But now you have a hundred because you're working like a hundred wedding obviously this past you but like you're in that way. Do you find that they. Because I guess that would be the impetus of why we have that thought process is to create more healthy boundaries which I, I agree with the what you're saying because you're 100% right of like fastest the most. The instant to connect usually is who wins the game. But like I guess have you had an instance where wedding clients would then almost like abuse that power that they have your phone number and, and how do you deal with that it's a good question.

[Ben Hartley]

So we also have an office line. So we have an office number. And then I have my personal number. And so I have an office number that has it forwards over and beyond the lead. I move everybody to the office number number, you know, and some people still message me, but I just. Hasn't been an issue if I just direct people to where they need to be directed to. Yeah, I think it does. Like if you, you have to be willing to then establish a boundary afterwards. And probably most people don't want to do that. I think most people don't want to have to speak up for themselves. I have no problem just saying like, hey, I'm on a vacation, go ahead and text is the office number. And that way it'll be stored in record and we'll be able to connect from there. I'm totally co. Like bat like pulling back up the, the boundaries if I need to. But again, to be honest, I also wonder if it's because our. My business has always been very like ran like a business beyond like so everything else beyond this is like, like we have office hours. I won't do meetings on weekends. I don't do meetings past 5pm I won't do engagement sessions on the weekends. I, I will make exceptions for certain things if I need to. Like, I've, I've got all these bound things, even like reveals. I do IPS reveals. I don't do those after hours. I won't do them on weekends.

[Evie McLeod]

Yeah.

[Ben Hartley]

And so I think I have a lot of other boundaries and everything else is really like buttoned up, professional everywhere that like, I think they're like, oh yeah, this is an actual business. This isn't just like some guy.

[Lindsay Roman]

Right.

[Ben Hartley]

Even though I did reach out personally.

[Evie McLeod]

To them, so it, it almost where it matters.

[Lindsay Roman]

Which is the.

[Evie McLeod]

Yeah, I was gonna say it almost like humanizes you. But then. And as a human who has now built this rapport and this trust and connection with your ideal clients of, hey, I'm a real person. You can also then be like, hey, as a real person who is also a dad and a husband, like, you know, I do have to have some boundaries on my business. And I think your ideal clients are probably like fully respectful of that, which is awesome.

[Ben Hartley]

Yeah, very much. And I will say that, like, listen, my weekends are reserved for my family in the off chance that I don't have a wedding, so weddings and family. And in order to give my family some semblance of a normal life, I have to secure my weekends for them. That's why I don't do engagement sessions then so, but then I always have what most couples do is we usually like to get together on a Friday. They take a half day off or maybe a couple hours early and then we can get together on a Friday. I'd love to make that happen. And so I always provide a solution for like how this works. Hey, I didn't do any calls after 5pm but what most of my clients do is they do a noon lunch break and I'll have you back by 12:45. Would that work for you? And so as long as I'm providing solutions what most other people do, there's social proof behind it. They're like, oh yeah, that's when I get my oil changed. Why wouldn't I also just talk to the professional photographer? You know what I mean?

[Evie McLeod]

It's so true. Is your workflow for your clients all over the freaking place is stuff falling through the cracks and you feel so overwhelmed trying to stay on top of client communication? Don't worry, we have all been there. If that is you, you have to hear about the best investment we have ever made into our business. Honeybook A client relationship management software. It is an all in one project management tool that is designed specifically for creative entrepreneurs.

[Lindsay Roman]

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[Evie McLeod]

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[Lindsay Roman]

Instead, we promise Honeybook will revolutionize your business the way it has ours. In addition to a free seven day trial, we have an exclusive offer for our podcast listeners. 35% off the first two years. All you have to do is go to share.honeybook.comheart and claim your discount. That's share.honeybook.com heart or you can check out the link in our show notes.

[Evie McLeod]

Hello, I wanted to interrupt this episode really quick to remind you that we have an apparel shop with heart filled pieces. See what we did there that we have designed with you in mind.

[Lindsay Roman]

In the shop we've got T shirts, crop tops, sweatshirts, mugs, hats and more all created with comfy and cute designs that you can rock in your everyday life.

[Evie McLeod]

This collection is for you. If you love the show and want to share it with your friends in a cool way, or if you want to wear something cute as heck that was intentionally designed with powerful phrases to remind you that you can do it, you were made to be a world changer and that the Lord created you wildly capable of big freaking things.

[Lindsay Roman]

Now, Obvi, this is a podcast and we can't show you how cute as heck these pieces are on the show. So run, don't walk to the heart shop to check out our apparel and more. You can head to www.theheartuniversity.com apparel to grab your favorite pieces today.

[Evie McLeod]

I love that.

[Lindsay Roman]

I would be remiss if I didn't ask what the AI you said you created an AI. Is this like a thing that we could like, purchase? Like, like a software?

[Ben Hartley]

Like, I'm just like, I'm building this into Book Solid. So I have a program called Book Solid and it's going to be in there. I'll have the whole blueprint that, that you could download and then upload and, and then I'll give you all the structure for it. But it's inside of BookSolid.

[Evie McLeod]

That's awesome.

[Lindsay Roman]

Amazing. Everyone, you heard it. You heard it here first. Everyone actually didn't hear it here first.

[Ben Hartley]

But you heard it eight months ago and now you're hearing it again, like.

[Evie McLeod]

Date, as if it's new information.

[Ben Hartley]

It's actually already out of date. It doesn't work anymore.

[Evie McLeod]

That's amazing. I love it. Okay, I have one final quick follow up to the whole texting thing, because I love Ben, what you're saying of, hey, build that connection. Respond quickly, like a hundred percent. That's a big thing that Lindsay and I advocate for and like, teach as well. One thing that we have taught our students is like, hey, if you do want to have that texting communication, a way to do it is either to have a separate phone and separate phone number that is like, you know, you turn off office hours and you set that expectation with your clients, like, hey, text me.

[Lindsay Roman]

Absolutely.

[Evie McLeod]

I answer it from 9 to 5 on these days or whatever. Or to use like, I know there are softwares. I think even technically you can do like a Google Voice number, but you can text via it. I know there are other softwares that you can like. It's basically like your, your emailing because you can do it from your computer, but it feels like texting to them. So what do you do? Do you have, say, like an office line? What does that look like?

[Ben Hartley]

Yeah, I Just use Google Voice. Now, I'm here in the States and Google Voice isn't available in certain countries. I don't know if it's available in any other country, to be quite honest, at least at the time of this recording. But yeah, Google Voice, it's a free phone number. You can set it for your area code. One of the beneficial things actually for this is I moved and like, my main line was an. An area code that wasn't for my city. And it's kind of nice. With Google Voice, I could then set up a business line that was local to my area. And then you can set up all the parameters. It's going to forward you emails of any voicemails it can forward to your cell phone as well. Only during certain times. Yeah, it, it's great.

[Evie McLeod]

I love it. I. I think that's such a fantastic way to almost still maintain a boundary as you're building your business of, you know, hey, I, I don't want my phone especially. I'm just thinking of the photographer right now because who's running kind of like the solo gig. They are the sole photographer and they are shooting or trying to shoot, you know, 30 weddings, 35 weddings a year, and X number of couple sessions, engagement sessions, whatever. And they're like, great, okay. Texting will help me, like, you know, book more and, and build more rapport and whatever. And I'm just envisioning their personal phone just blowing up with like, all of this. I'm like, hey, this is a fantastic way. Like, Ben, you, I feel like, have set it up for your.

[Lindsay Roman]

Yourself so beautifully, where you're still establishing boundaries.

[Evie McLeod]

Yeah, you, you're like, almost beautifully straddling the two of like, hey, I want to build a connection. I want to have this, you know, more intimate form of communication with my clients right out the gate.

[Lindsay Roman]

Help you get more booked.

[Evie McLeod]

Yeah, 100%. But I also, you know, still want to be present for my family and have boundaries.

[Ben Hartley]

Yeah. And I think this is one of those things that's like, if you're getting leads and you're happy, I'm so happy. Like, you can just keep emailing and like, if you have enough that you can afford to lose, you know, 20 times of them, that's great. And I think some people are in that situation right, where they're just killing it. They don't need to do all this stuff. But I think for the listener who's maybe like, the bookings are low, they're inconsistent, then it can be maybe the right time, not necessarily to decrease prices, but to, like, improve the experience and the systems, if only for a period of time, in order to then get stuff ramped up where you can start to, like, reestablish further boundaries, you know? Yeah, that's the thing, I think, like, you're. This is your business. Like, it doesn't own you. Like, just change stuff. Like, do it until it no longer serves you and then come up with a new system that would better serve you.

[Lindsay Roman]

You know, I love that. So good for the listener that's listening to this, because I think the. Responding quickly, that's great. And I know at the very. That what this question tailed off on was the original, which was like showing your best work, making sure it's consistent, responding quickly, and then posting, like, a lot. For the person that's sitting there that just heard us go on about the AI and the phone, and they're like, this is all great and dandy, but I got crickets coming in my. Like, I'm sitting. Sitting here on ground zero.

[Evie McLeod]

I don't even have an inquiry to respond to in five minutes.

[Lindsay Roman]

Yeah, yeah. And they're like, on the struggle bus. Is there anything specific or maybe even a specific market marketing avenue, whether it be word of mouth, social media, any other thing that you want to. Like, is there a thing that you could recommend to them other than obviously, like, having good portfolio and. And posting a lot?

[Ben Hartley]

I think that what I'm hearing you say is, what could I do to get leads fast?

[Lindsay Roman]

Yes, that's a great summary of the word vomit that I just said.

[Ben Hartley]

No, I just want to make sure. Because I also think that that's a. So we can do that. That. And we. We also. I think far too many people want things fast and they've got very low standards for themselves. They have high expectations. They have low standards. They're unwilling to do what it takes to get leads fast. And so if you're going to want to get leads fast, we can do that, but it's going to cost you.

[Evie McLeod]

Yeah.

[Ben Hartley]

And I don't know, like, we just have to. You got to weigh that. So, like, there's only a few ways to get leads fast. So one is paid advertising. And that is not a silver bullet. Expect to spend at least a thousand dollars and maybe get results. Maybe. And this is coming from someone who's spent almost. I don't get into how much I spent a lot.

[Lindsay Roman]

No.

[Ben Hartley]

But every time I do, it's just like at least a thousand is going down the drain. And. And so everything has to get retested and retest and retested. It changes all the time. You've got to figure out how to do it it, and then you got to figure out how to do it again next week when it changes again. So, okay, so you've got paid ads, right? So that's one option. The next is you've a promotional event. You have to, like, dangle a really large carrot in front of your audience and say, listen, this is a steal. You would be an idiot not to hire me right now because of how good of a deal this is. Okay. And I think some people are. They don't want to have a promotion. They don't want to do a giveaway. They don't want to incentivize, you know, and this is like Black Friday, right? Like, why do we all go running out on Black Friday? It's because it's an insanely exciting deal. It's an exciting time. And so you have to make an actually exciting offer that is irresistible. Not 20% off. That's not irresistible. Nobody cares. I don't care. If I get a. A canvas with the collection, I'm not buying it. It's not irresistible. So it has to be an insanely good deal. If you want leads fast. Yeah. Paid ads. That's the other one. The other one is then is just literally being willing to grind out the time that it could take. And this is. I would just call this like, knocking on doors. I think most photographers are unwilling to do that. Like, this would be like cold dming. This would be like reaching out to people and trying to provide value to not reaching out to people and say, hey, would you want to hire me for a session? That's not it. You have to provide value to people.

[Lindsay Roman]

People.

[Ben Hartley]

But if you don't have leads, that means you need to go get them.

[Evie McLeod]

Yeah.

[Ben Hartley]

And that means reaching out to people that don't know you. That means standing up for your art in a way that I think most photographers are probably unwilling to do. But it can work. It's a numbers game. Like, if I DM 100 people a day, who are my target client with, these are the top vendors and in my area and just give recommendations for help for how you could serve them for the wedding, Maybe one out of a hundred will reply back and say, thank you. And that is now my foot in the door. That is now a lead. Right. And so if we're talking fast, I mean, the other one is like, if. Is this mostly wedding photographers who listen?

[Evie McLeod]

Yeah, primarily. I mean, trade show variety. Yeah.

[Ben Hartley]

This goes Back to money, though. This is paid. I mean, trade shows are paid advertisement. Right?

[Lindsay Roman]

Yeah.

[Ben Hartley]

You pay $2,000 to go get in front of, you know, 400. They always say 400 to a thousand. It's never that. Just cut that number in a quarter. By the way, whatever the stupid trade show says, we have a thousand people come last year. Well, okay. Immediately half of them were just like the other partner, and then the other half was mom and dad, and then there's another half that's like the bestie. Okay, so. But you're paying $2,000 to get in front of. Of a bunch of warm leads.

[Evie McLeod]

Yeah.

[Ben Hartley]

Right. So, like, that's another great way to just like, very quickly do it. And to be honest, that's the one that I would probably recommend for wedding photographers, because everyone's looking left, everyone's looking at. They're still looking at social media. We're looking at AI, we're looking at paid ads. We're looking at doing the least amount of effort behind our computer. And the more that AI continues to ramp up, the more inauthentic and ingenuine and mass content machines keep getting produced that are just pumping out out the more valuable your face becomes. Just like you actually being you in front of someone. You can't make it up. You can't fake it. And. And so trade shows give. I think they give a huge advantage to someone who is decent at, like, connecting at just a human level. If you're good at connecting on a human level, you should be at a trade show every year. It is your superpower. Lean into it. People want to buy from people.

[Evie McLeod]

Yeah.

[Ben Hartley]

And so I think trade shows provide that opportunity.

[Evie McLeod]

Oh, I love this.

[Lindsay Roman]

So good.

[Evie McLeod]

Okay, I. I could see. I'm curious, Ben, if you want to unpack just a little bit more. When you talked about, like a promotion, something that is irresistible offer, what would you say to the person who is concerned with devaluing their. Their.

[Ben Hartley]

You don't have a brand, you don't have. No one's hiring you. You don't. How are you going to devalue something that no one's buying? I'm sorry, but like, put on your applause. Put on. Oh, that was a swear button. There it is.

[Lindsay Roman]

There we go.

[Ben Hartley]

I just. I'm just being like, we. I think that we have an ego and no one's buying, so we've got to do something.

[Evie McLeod]

Yeah.

[Ben Hartley]

You know, like, there's nothing. I was probably harsh, but I didn't mean to be. It's just like if no one's buying it, then we got to figure out a way to get them to buy it.

[Lindsay Roman]

Yeah, well, I feel like we're waiting for, we're sitting here and we're posting on Instagram and we're like being like, oh, well, no one's hiring me. But we're unwilling to do many of the things that you just listed because we're waiting for leads or inquiries to magically come to us. As if like by just having a business and standing here and being like, I'm a photographer, the world will just magically know and, and come to us. And it's like, well, that's not how that works.

[Ben Hartley]

Well, and with, with any sort of promotional event, it won't devalue your brand as long as there is a reason for it. It doesn't have to be a good reason. Literally just, there's got to be a reason. Yeah, it's my cat's birthday and so for the next three people, right, like you then honestly, that kind of stuff can work really well. So, so there has to be a reason for it. There has to be a limit to the time or the quantity, right. I think of like a three day flash sale, nothing longer than seven days, right? And then, and then also a restriction to the amount of these that you're going to do a year. Otherwise you train people to just come down, like, just come around. Like only when you do mini sessions, you know, once every 30 days, that's the only time you're going to get people. It's because you've trained them to do that. But those, like, no one is devaluing brands on Black Friday because they're doing certain things. You know, it's like there's a reason for it. It's Black Friday. There's a scarcity, you know, there's a quantity and duration that it's going to be limited to.

[Evie McLeod]

So I think, I think what's interesting as you were talking, Ben, what pops into my head is because we as the business owner know the reality behind the scenes. Like, we know that our inbox has been dry and we are, are trying to, you know, manufacture an opportunity to change that. We then almost have this, I don't know, the curse of knowledge in the sense that we know that that's what the inside of our business and the back end of our business looks like. So we assume that, oh, if I offer a discount or a promotion or, you know, a flash sale or something, everyone else is gonna know that it's because I'm really failing at getting These inquiries and like, my business is like, nobody's gonna want to hire me because nobody else wants to hire me because.

[Lindsay Roman]

They know, like, it reeks of desperation.

[Evie McLeod]

Yeah, but, but that's such a skewed perspective. Like, like Ben's saying, it's like, what, we don't devalue the brands on Black Friday because they're doing, you know, a sale or even, I don't know, I'm trying to think of like other brands that just do a random mid year sale for whatever reason, the founder's birthday or something like that. We don't look at that and think, oh, it's because your sales are really low right now, isn't it?

[Lindsay Roman]

Like, I.

[Evie McLeod]

But I think we hold that perspective when we're in the position of knowing.

[Lindsay Roman]

Like all of it's like our intimately aware. I'm intimately in tune with my inbox right now.

[Evie McLeod]

It's like you have to, you have to separate yourself from that. And it's. I think, Ben, you, you've said this a couple times. You have to let go of the ego. That's the thing that I feel like in that situation is, is almost getting in your way. Would you agree with that?

[Ben Hartley]

Yeah, very much. Yep, 100%, I agree. There's a great. So like stoicism is, is a whole philosophy on crushing your ego. There's a great author, Ryan Hollis Holiday, highly encourage. He's got a book called Ego is the Enemy. And I would encourage people to read some of Ryan Holiday's stuff.

[Evie McLeod]

That's awesome.

[Lindsay Roman]

Can we talk real fast before we end about Google Reviews and what your thoughts are?

[Ben Hartley]

You wanted to end on the most exciting thing, didn't you? What is this really? So let's end on Google reviews.

[Evie McLeod]

I'm sorry, you didn't even like, you didn't even go into like, okay, let's talk about trade shows. Like, how do you build rapport? Lindsay's like, google Reviews.

[Ben Hartley]

You know what?

[Evie McLeod]

I really want to hit those.

[Ben Hartley]

We're going to kick you back into SEO. I'm sorry. Now it's exciting. Now it's fun.

[Evie McLeod]

Oh, man.

[Lindsay Roman]

He was like, I was wearing down and you revitalized me.

[Evie McLeod]

Ben will bring the energy on anything. So I think Lindsay's on phase by asking about Google Reviews.

[Ben Hartley]

Actually, here's the thing though. I love Google Reviews and they are. Well, I'll let you ask the question. But I. But I love them. I adore them and they are so necessary and so I'd love to talk about it. It was a fun little Bit I was like, oh, I think that's a fun bit.

[Lindsay Roman]

I'm so glad. Well, I guess the reason I was going to ask your opinion on what is your thought process on Google Reviews, specifically because I think obviously reviews are incredible with a business, with any business, but specifically, I think for wedding photographers or just any photographer, I think we often get the question of like, where, like if I'm asking a client to leave a review, where do I, where do I have them leave it? And then, you know, there's just. So I, I wanted your opinion in general on Google reviews. What's the benefit? How to encourage your clients to give them on Google all the things just.

[Ben Hartley]

Yeah, you can rank, I mean out of every place that you could leave a review, we've got like Facebook, Wedding wire, the. Not Yelp. Yeah, Google. Hundred percent Google. Every day, all day. Doesn't matter if you have 100, keep sending them to Google. Google is the arbiter of truth. That is why this is where all the AIs are going to continue to look at in order to return their results. And so like, if you're concerned about, well, what about ChatGPT? Yeah, they're looking at Google, so. So 100%, that is where I would be, I'd be building them up. And I've already mentioned this, like right now, the, the most valuable asset that you can really use and are required to have in order to get bookings right now is trust. You've got to remove risk. We are at the highest point of like risk aversion. And so we need, we need reviews. We need authentic, great reviews. And the more personal they are, the better. The more that the reviews speak to Ben and not Ben's images, the better.

[Evie McLeod]

Yeah.

[Ben Hartley]

And so, yeah, they're everything.

[Evie McLeod]

I love it.

[Ben Hartley]

I think there was like two or three questions in your question, but I.

[Lindsay Roman]

Thought, well, I think, I think you kind of. It was more like opinions. Thoughts.

[Ben Hartley]

Yes.

[Lindsay Roman]

Should we do it? Should we tell clients to direct what you answered? I feel like you have a follow up question.

[Evie McLeod]

Yeah, it's a follow up, just logistically within that. Okay, what. How do you. Because I feel like I just know from my experience, even as an entrepreneur, as a business owner who knows the value of reviews, who is so willing to like write a good review for a fellow service provider who has done something incredible for me, there is still an element. Maybe I'm just lazy, maybe I'm outing myself here right now. There is still an element, if, if there is friction for me to write them a review. Let's like of any form. And I always put this on my clients then of like, well, what if they don't have, you know, they're not logged into a Google account or they don't use Google.

[Lindsay Roman]

They have like a magn.

[Evie McLeod]

I don't, I don't know. Like there's just a part of me that's like, if I'm almost making that the only real like or the strongest option of leave a review here. Does that feel overwhelming for somebody who hasn't left a Google review before? They have to log in, they have to go in all this stuff. Like, what are your thoughts on that element of like friction and frustration for clients?

[Ben Hartley]

My thoughts are don't stop doing the right thing in order to appease the lowest common denominator. Like, there's always going to be someone that's like, I don't have a Google account. Okay, Nancy again, second time around on this episode. Damn it, Nancy. So there's always going to be that person. There's always going to be someone who doesn't. But I'm only going to send it to one place. As soon as you do a call to action from more than one place, you plummet your click through rates. So if I say leave a Google review here or if you're on wedding wire than not, you know, you could drop it here. It's like I've just absolutely decimated my click throughs for the person who actually was going to leave it on Google.

[Evie McLeod]

Yeah.

[Ben Hartley]

And so I would say one call to action, one place, one location. Not everyone's going to do it. And that's fine. We'll get the people who are.

[Evie McLeod]

Yeah.

[Ben Hartley]

And then you need to play into psychological triggers with this. You don't just want to send. There should not be an email that you're sending with the sole purpose of requesting a Google review. It needs to be. You need to tie it to a high value give. So that way you are also triggering the rule of reciprocation, which is I just gave you something.

[Lindsay Roman]

Yep.

[Ben Hartley]

Right. And I think a lot of people mess this up. They wait until they deliver the photographs. And I think that's probably the most obvious time to ask for a review is once you've delivered the photographs. And that is not the best time. And in my experience.

[Evie McLeod]

Unpack that.

[Lindsay Roman]

I'm so glad you're answering this because this was my next question.

[Ben Hartley]

So you, you want to ask for the review at the, the highest point of gratification, the climax of the experience. Notice what I said? The climax of the experience. Okay. So I want. I want to put you in the shoes of. Of like a wedding client. Right. So they've just had their wedding day. I mean, it was freaking, freaking bonkers. It was amazing. Mind blown. They wake up the next morning, they're getting ready for their honeymoon. They get an email with a sneak peek. They're still just like, sharing stories. They're just like, right. And then they leave for the honeymoon, and they're just like disconnected and checked out. And now it's like two weeks later. And now they got to come back home to reality and they're at work. And now there's some extra bells. And so, like, there's just a listen. I get it. Like, there's probably still, like, good stuff happening, but the day after the session or the day of the session, I say session because it's also applies to engagement shoots is the high. It's the peak of excitement. It is like they're still on cloud nine. They're still hungover. They're still riding whatever it is. So they're still just like, Jack. All right. And now I send them a sneak peek and I rave about how incredible the day was. They're seeing proof of it with an image. And then tied to that is, as a small business owner, a single review can make the biggest difference. Yeah, I want to photograph more people like you. It would mean the world if you would share about the experience.

[Lindsay Roman]

That makes so much sense. And you. So you're saying include it in the email that is delivery. Yeah, the sneak peek delivery, which would be ideally the day after, when they're still on every day after.

[Ben Hartley]

Yep, exactly. And then I have a link right there to it. And. And I think the language matters too. Like, I want to photograph more people like you. It's like, I like you. You are. You're the bomb.

[Evie McLeod]

I want.

[Ben Hartley]

I want more of your folks. Yes. And then I'm also just expressing how much of an impact this is. Can have.

[Evie McLeod]

Yes.

[Ben Hartley]

And it's. It's almost like, hey, this is like a. Like for a small business. This is a make it or break it thing. This really means the world. And it can impact me in more ways than you realize. It would just mean so much. If you take a minute. Here's the link. And I'm asking them to not to review the photographs, although they do have an image. I ask them to review the experience because now the review is going to be like, Ben made me laugh the entire a day. Anytime I started to feel like I just look over And I'd see his dumbass smile, and then he would lift my spirits. And the photographs was just effortless. Like, that's the kind of review that I want.

[Lindsay Roman]

Yeah. So good. Well, you've also. I feel like the way you're phrasing that positions them, that they're a monster if they don't do it.

[Ben Hartley]

Your words, not mine.

[Lindsay Roman]

No, no. But, like, not, like, subliminal. You've positioned it in a way that's like, why would you not leave that review? Yeah, obviously, that was strong language. But you.

[Evie McLeod]

You get from monster.

[Lindsay Roman]

But it's like you're doing it, like you said, at the height when they're most emotionally charged. It's like they're the most excited. But I. Yeah, I love that because I. I've never heard anybody say that. But it's also. I feel like the. The. I feel like so many people are like, okay, do I do it the day that I send the gallery? But then there is. Does it get lost in, like, the sauce of gallery delivery? Do I do it gallery delivery? But then, like, to your point, Ben, you, like the fizzled excitement or. Well, the excitement has fizzled, and it's so far removed from the actual, like, height of emotion and of the event itself that it's like they're almost having to recall the.

[Ben Hartley]

When are you most excited about your meal? It's like when you've just started the appetizer. You can't wait to get the meal. And then. And when you actually get the meal, it's kind of like, now we're thinking about, man, I wish you would have refilled my drinks more like. And you're leaving the tip. You know what I'm saying? And so what we're talking about is you're asking for the review at that little appetizer. That taste. That's when everyone at the table is just like, the energy is still there. We're so excited. We can't wait. And here's a small little thing. You tend to get better reviews because. And this is not intentional. This is just how it works. I didn't orchestrate it this way. I just have come to recognize it now is because you haven't actually delivered the final product. It's kind of like, you know. You know when you're really kind to a server before they bring out the food so they don't spit in it or something? Right. It's like. It's like, you gotta be really. So they tend to be, like, really, really nice, because you now are gonna Go and edit all of their imperfections, you know, and so the reviews are just, like, really glowing because now you're gonna be. By the way, one other thing that's super important whenever you're doing the review thing with this step is you let them know before they ask. Right. You need to manage expectations. So not only are you giving them a photograph with the sneak peek, but you're saying, however long your. Your time is. I do eight weeks on purpose. I know it's long. Even with AI, I do it on purpose. That's another conversation. But I say, listen, over the next eight weeks, I'm going to be obsessing, freaking obsessing over every single image. You will have them. And then we. I let them know the date that we've already scheduled the reveal. Okay, so we've managed expectations. When are they going to get the pictures? What am I going to be doing during this time? I'm obsessing. Right. And so anyhow, the reviews tend to be a lot better too, because they're like, please, take all the time you need. You just obsess. Here's my review. You're the best.

[Evie McLeod]

You know, I love it.

[Lindsay Roman]

I love the psychology behind that.

[Evie McLeod]

That's so good.

[Lindsay Roman]

And it doesn't feel slimy, but it almost is.

[Evie McLeod]

Like, it's very strategic.

[Lindsay Roman]

Yes, that's a better word.

[Ben Hartley]

I found that part out later. That was like a. Oh, why are people being, like, unusually kind to me right now?

[Lindsay Roman]

It's like you're almost. It's. You're not, but it's you. It's almost like the galleries being held hostage until you deliver the glowing review. Not really, but, like, also, it.

[Evie McLeod]

There might be a subliminal thought in the back of their minds, and you're like, I'll just let that linger. I never said it. I would never. I would never actually say that, but I'll just let them think.

[Ben Hartley]

Kidding.

[Evie McLeod]

I love it. Okay, Ben, can I ask you a very, very blunt, direct question to this conversation?

[Ben Hartley]

Sure.

[Evie McLeod]

What is your. Your return on these review requests? Like, do you have, like. And it doesn't have to be an exact number, but is it. Are you like 90 of my clients write a review with that email at that stage in the process? Or is it, you know, I don't know. 1 out of 1 out of 10? 10%.

[Ben Hartley]

So I. I mean, I don't want to make up a number, so I'm not going to. I just know I've. I've tested everything. I've. Testing for the review at the end I've tested all kinds of things. This is the one that has gotten me the highest return with the most favorable reviews and the best kind of reviews. Not all reviews are created equal. Yep.

[Evie McLeod]

It's true, right?

[Ben Hartley]

Like you can get, like you can get more maybe reviews that are just like bullshit reviews.

[Evie McLeod]

Yeah.

[Ben Hartley]

But like, again, it's the. It is the kind of, kind of view, the quality of it. What they're saying, is it a five star review? Is it a four? I. I tended to notice a lot more like after final delivery of everything. You know, that's maybe when they start to notice. Oh, man, you didn't get a picture of like, so just like, really, the napkins. Four star review. I'm like, what? Really?

[Evie McLeod]

The paper napkins, Karen.

[Ben Hartley]

And again, what they're reviewing.

[Evie McLeod]

Yeah.

[Ben Hartley]

So when I ask for them after the, at the time of the full delivery, they're reviewing the images. And that's fine. I get that that's part of your product. But like, everyone makes great picks, yo. Like, we have to do something far better, far more meaningful. And that really is you. It's like you are the meaningful difference. So I want people to review me and the experience of working with me and the creation process of the imagery. So anyhow, yeah, I find that all across the board. It's. It's better. But I can't give you, like, here's the numbers.

[Evie McLeod]

No, that's even that I feel like is just so good of like, hey, I've tried everything. This by far has given me the best results is just a phenomenal answer. Like, I love it.

[Lindsay Roman]

Well, man, y' all mocked me, but that was some tea.

[Ben Hartley]

That was good. That was good.

[Lindsay Roman]

That was some tea, guys. To end on the Google review.

[Ben Hartley]

I went hard too. I was like, I really, I was like, man, I just need to.

[Lindsay Roman]

That was so good. Well, this is the perfect time to pitch yourself. Show the people that again, have lived in the cave and are not in your ecosystem or they don't. Maybe they have heard of you, but they took this moment with the Google reviews to be like, oh, shoot. Like, I need to be in his ecosystem. I need to do the course. I need to follow this dude. I need to listen to his podcast. Where can everyone find you? Ben?

[Ben Hartley]

Yeah, the one place that I would say to go to is like, I. I really think strategically through everything. And So I have 30 creative ways that you can get clients. And it's a three day long workshop because I couldn't put it into a single day. And I give everything that I have in terms of like lead generation. It's really freaking good. It's better than most people's paid stuff. And you should go and watch it. Six figure photography, S I x six figure photography fee dot com. And then just do forward slash blitz. B I, B L I T Z blitz. It's a. It's a client blitz is what I called it. I would just tell people to go there. Like if you want more really practical, hard hitting stuff to get you leads. The blitz.

[Evie McLeod]

I love it.

[Lindsay Roman]

Amazing.

[Evie McLeod]

Ben, you are incredible. Thank you so much for your time, your wisdom, your strategy, all of it today. You are just incredible.

[Ben Hartley]

Thank you. Thanks for having me. I appreciate you have you. Thanks, Lindsay.

[Lindsay Roman]

It was a great time.