3 & Out - Jayden Daniels out, AGAIN, Russ vs. Payton, and Why Backup QBs Matter

Summary

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The Herd with Colin Cowherd – 3 & Out: Jayden Daniels Out, AGAIN, Russ vs. Payton, and Why Backup QBs Matter

Release Date: October 23, 2025
Host: John Middlekauff
Guests/Contributors: Jackson (Producer)

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Episode Overview

On this episode of “3 & Out,” John Middlekauff breaks down the current NFL quarterback injury landscape, questions surrounding the durability of dual-threat quarterbacks in today’s league, and why truly great offensive coaching is reflected in resilience with backup QBs. He also analyzes Sean Payton’s headline-making comments about Russell Wilson and the shifting coaching carousel in college football, bringing on producer Jackson for an in-depth, lively discussion on coaching hot seats, program expectations, and the future of several iconic schools.

With a nuanced, opinionated tone that blends nostalgia with sharp present analysis, John and Jackson pull no punches as they debate what matters most in both the NFL and the ever-chaotic college football world.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

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NFL Quarterback Durability, Recklessness, and the Impact of Injuries

[04:47–16:14]

• Jayden Daniels (Commanders) Concern: Daniels' repeated injuries prompt a broad discussion about the increasing recklessness of mobile, dual-threat quarterbacks. Middlekauff questions whether modern QBs are too emboldened by rule changes protecting them, leading to unsustainable, risky play styles.

  • “[Daniels] is pretty reckless, doesn't protect himself… but when you run around… your overall game is not sustainable.” – John Middlekauff [05:57]

• League Context & Player Safety: Cites NFL's evolution from violent “hospital-ball” past to today’s CTE-sensitive, player-protected era, suggesting an “overcorrection” in how defenders are now penalized for hits.

  • “No one’s trying to hurt anyone anymore... these targeting penalties, it’s not John Lynch 1996.” – John Middlekauff [08:02]

• Recklessness and Consequences: Critiques young QBs (Daniels, Jackson Dart, Brock Purdy) for not protecting themselves, warning that NFL-caliber defenders can still inflict career-altering injuries. Praises Lamar Jackson and Kyler Murray for pragmatic self-preservation.

  • “You get to the NFL… These guys are big, fast, strong. You will get injured.” – John Middlekauff [11:13]
  • “You’re not careful… [Micah Parsons] will send you to the blue tent, could knock you out a month, could end your season.” – John Middlekauff [14:06]

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The Critical Value of Backup QBs & Coaching

[16:15–20:51]

• Shanahan vs. Harbaugh on QB Injuries:

  • Kyle Shanahan’s 17-7 record with backups is contrasted with John Harbaugh’s 2-6 mark in Lamar Jackson's absence.

  • Matt Mayoko’s comments on Shanahan’s near “lifetime contract” and unbeatable value to the 49ers are cited.

    • “That's where your value is derived from… you can take random guys and continue to win.” – John Middlekauff [17:16]
• The True Test of Great Coaches:
  • Andy Reid and Sean Payton’s legacies highlighted as defined not just by winning with elite QBs, but by succeeding with “random guys” and getting the best out of backup/undervalued passers.
    • “We know Andy Reid, Sean Payton, Kyle Shanahan, Sean McVay... give them the best QB, they're going to dominate. What do you do when I take that guy away?” – [17:31]

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Russell Wilson vs. Sean Payton: Is Outrage Overblown?

[20:52–26:55]

• Optics Over Reality:
  • Delves into the online drama following Sean Payton’s praise of Giants QB Jackson Dart and the perceived snub of Russell Wilson. Middlekauff distinguishes actual intent from social media narratives, calling the uproar “insane” and a byproduct of internet groupthink rather than football reality.
    • “If you were a coach, a gambler, anybody, you’d rather play Russell Wilson than Jackson Dart… 100% universally agreed upon.” – John Middlekauff [24:43]
  • Woody Johnson’s critical comments on Justin Fields are discussed as an example of everyone privately agreeing a QB is bad, yet feigning outrage when it’s said publicly.

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Monday Night Doubleheaders & NFL Broadcasting Changes

[27:27–29:09]

• Nostalgia for the Old Format:
  • Middlekauff laments the dilution of Monday Night Football’s uniqueness through increased doubleheaders, admitting he’s “a dying breed” but predicting even more multi-game slates in the NFL’s future.
    • “Monday Night Football should be a sacred place for one game.” – John Middlekauff [28:43]

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College Football Coaching Carousel: Hot Seats, Candidates & Job Hierarchy

Segment: College Football Hot Seat Roundtable with Jackson
[34:18–63:11+ (spans much of the middle and later episode)]

• Who’s in Jeopardy Next?
  • Names like Hugh Freeze (Auburn), Mike Norvell (Florida State), Brian Kelly (LSU), and Luke Fickell are analyzed.
  • The growing complexity and cost of firing high-profile coaches is acknowledged (e.g., Norvell’s $76M buyout).
    • “It’s just really difficult to fire [guys like Brian Kelly or Norvell]. If you fire them, you need someone better, and that’s just as expensive.” – John Middlekauff [39:20]
  • Pressure rising at schools falling behind not just Alabama/Georgia, but also upstarts like Vanderbilt and Missouri.
    • “Once Vanderbilt and Clark Lee are working you, I can’t… if I was a fan, I wouldn’t even be able to take him seriously anymore.” – John Middlekauff [49:31]
• Challenges of ‘Buying Teams’ in the Portal Era:
  • Overreliance on transfers (FSU, Auburn) is criticized as lacking cohesion, rapport, and proven long-term success.
    • “Buying your whole team is not going to work… Best teams are mostly homegrown.” – John Middlekauff [44:55]
• Florida vs. Penn State — Which Is the Better Job?
  • Middlekauff argues Florida is a much better landing spot now: expectations are lower due to recent struggles, while Penn State’s patience is thin and expectations very high.
    • “Florida’s standard is pretty low… If you went 9–3 at Penn State, people would be like, ‘What are we doing?’ At Florida, they’d throw a parade.” – John Middlekauff [61:07]
• Realities of Hiring Alma Mater Coaches & Career Mobility:
  • Skepticism is raised that “dream job” hires like Clark Lee or Brent Key (from their alma maters) would actually turn down better-funded offers from bigger SEC programs given today’s landscape.
    • “You got to be very conditionally loyal… you got to strike when the iron’s hot, it’s a cutthroat job.” – John Middlekauff [69:04]
• Wildcard Moves & The Lane Kiffin Effect:
  • Lane Kiffin remains the “sexy” name every program covets for making a big splash.
  • Jeff Brohm (Louisville) is highlighted as an underrated but proven candidate, potentially an ideal fit for Penn State or Florida.
    • “Jeff Brohm… 20 years ago, we’d be talking about him like the #1 coaching candidate not named Lane Kiffin. But it does feel like he’s an afterthought.” – John Middlekauff [80:39]

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The Future of Displaced Head Coaches

[81:54–86:11]

• James Franklin’s Next Move:
  • Doubt he’d take mid-tier jobs (UCLA, OK State, VA Tech), but SEC openings (Auburn, Arkansas) could attract him.
  • Franklin’s recruiting strength and adaptability discussed, especially for programs seeking revitalization.
    • “He’s actually probably more suited to go to Auburn or Arkansas and build that type of team.” – John Middlekauff [83:15]

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Outside the Box: Jon Gruden as a College Head Coach?

[90:41–94:45]

• Middlekauff is less confident than in preseason about Gruden returning to lead a college program, citing little recent buzz and uncertainty about ADs’ interest.
  • “Developing a relationship with a sixteen-year-old kid kind of sucks… But it’s kind of what you got to do [in college].” – John Middlekauff [93:38]
  • Still, acknowledges some skills (charisma, recruiting) might translate well if he tried.

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Heisman Race Talk

[95:04–103:37]

• Focuses on Diego Pavia (Vanderbilt) and Ty Simpson (Alabama) as leading, “fun” candidates given their outlier performances.
  • “[Pavia’s] the most fun player in the league, in the country, right now… I’d vote for Diego Pavia today.” – John Middlekauff [97:29]
• The importance of primetime performance and unique moments in winning the award is discussed.

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Personal Reflections & Closing

[105:10–110:58]

• Middlekauff and Jackson humorously discuss Middlekauff’s impending fatherhood, reflecting on the surreal hustle and odd disconnect men can feel pre-birth, expectations for sleeplessness, and the evolution of parenting norms and lifestyles.

  • “They have this human growing in them… you realize the disconnect. They’re connected, it’s moving, yet I just live my life like before.” – John Middlekauff [105:32]

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “You get to the NFL… These guys are big, fast, strong. You will get injured.” – John Middlekauff [11:13]
• “Shanahan’s 17 and 7 with backup QBs. That’s where your value is derived from.” – John Middlekauff [17:16]
• “No one’s asking you to play like Peyton Manning or Tom Brady where you don’t move… but you can’t take unneeded hits.” – John Middlekauff [16:06]
• “[Sean Payton] was putting your guy on a pedestal… This became a national story, and it’s just insane.” – John Middlekauff [24:43]
• “Monday Night Football should be a sacred place for one game.” – John Middlekauff [28:43]
• “It’s just really difficult to fire [guys like Brian Kelly or Norvell]. If you fire them, you need someone better, and that’s just as expensive.” – John Middlekauff [39:20]
• “Florida’s standard is pretty low… If you went 9–3 at Penn State, people would like, ‘What are we doing?’ At Florida, they’d throw a parade.” – John Middlekauff [61:07]
• “Jeff Brohm… 20 years ago, we’d be talking about him like the #1 coaching candidate not named Lane Kiffin. But it does feel like he’s an afterthought.” – John Middlekauff [80:39]
• “They have this human growing in them… you realize the disconnect. They’re connected, it’s moving, yet I just live my life like before.” – John Middlekauff [105:32]

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Important Timestamps

• Jayden Daniels & QB Injuries: 04:47–16:14
• Backup QBs & Coaching Value: 16:15–20:51
• Russ vs. Payton & League Optics: 20:52–26:55
• Monday Night Football Nostalgia: 27:27–29:09
• College Football Coaching Carousel: 34:18–81:54 (various)
• Heisman Watch: 95:04–103:37
• Personal/Fatherhood Talk: 105:10–110:58

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Summary & Tone

This episode blends classic Middlekauff bluntness with deep football know-how and wry humor. It’s an unvarnished window into the unpredictable world of NFL quarterback play and the high-wire act of coaching—at both the pro and college levels. From scathing takes on “reckless” young QBs to savvy advice on SEC job hunting, the show offers actionable insights for fans and insiders alike. The college football segment, led by both John and Jackson, is lively, fast-paced, and loaded with candid, sometimes irreverent player and coaching assessments, marked by a willingness to challenge sports world assumptions.

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Note: Ads, show intro/outro, and non-content segments have been omitted from this summary for clarity and focus.

Transcript

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NBA on Prime tips off with their debut double header.

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The Garden as the Celtics face the Knicks. Then out west, it's the battle of.

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What is going on everybody? John Middelkopf Three and Out podcast that'd be me and that'd be what you're listening to. I'm gonna do a couple quick NFL things. Jaden Daniels is injured and just the overall scope of these quarterbacks. Are they being a little too reckless? Also wanted to hit On Sean Payton, his comments and are we, are we overreacting? Russell had a tweet, so I want to. Woody Johnson also had some comments on his quarterbacks and.

Or quarterback and Justin Fields.

Are we just too obsessed with the optics right now relative to reality? I just want to dive into that. And then I brought on formerly known as intern Jackson. Now he's just behind the scenes producer Jackson and we just talk college football for like an hour on the hiring cycle. Who's going to get hired, what jobs are good. We just, he's a college football junkie. And I said, you know what, Jackson, hop on here and let's, let's talk a little ball. But other than that, that'll be the.

Game plan for today.

[Jackson (Producer)]

So I know I saw a lot.

[John Middlekauff]

Of you guys fire in those dms.

Might have to manually get back to some of you, but we will work on that. I'll find it. Maybe I'll put one out on Saturday morning or something. I'll have to think about that.

But no mailbag today. So basically just a little NFL talk. Little college football talk. If you listen on Collins feed, make.

Sure you subscribe to three and out. If you listen or watch, all of our stuff's on YouTube as well. So go check that out. Subscribe to the YouTube page and yeah.

Before we do, you know, I got to tell you about my friends. You know I got to tell you about my partners. The official ticketing app of this podcast. You want to go to a game? Do you want to go to an event? Do you want to go to a concert? They got you covered, my friends. Game Time. Best in the business. Any event you want to go to college football, NBA game, college basketball, you name it. Do you live in Utah? I just saw BYU number one player in the country paying him like $7 million. Utah, one of the most underrated states in America. If you're ever there, want to go see him play? Go check it out. Do you live in another area? You want to go to a college football game? Do you want to go to an NFL game? Any event you want to go to. Game Time has you covered. Price points, flash deals impossible to beat. Take the guesswork out of buying tickets with Game Time. Download the Game Time app, create an account and use a code JOHN for $20 off your first purchase terms. Apply again, create an account and redeem the code John for 20 off. Download the game Time app today. Last minute tickets, lowest price is guaranteed. I was thinking about this today because I saw Jaden Daniels is injured and let's face it, I. It feels like he was injured kind of to start the season. He has not looked like the same guy physically. Just moving around, he's been banged up. And one of the knocks on Jaden Daniels, like a lot of quarterbacks and in these modern times is pretty reckless, doesn't protect himself. And I was thinking like, listen, we all get accustomed to our environment. My life is so predicated on the Internet.

Obviously I make my living literally on.

The Internet, but all my TVs are all powered through the Internet. If the Internet goes down for five seconds, I have a conniption. I lose my mind if just for a split second. And it rarely does. I'm watching tv, I'm watching a game, that little refresher goes, I flip out. 15 years ago or hell, 20 years ago, when I was like in high school and in college, it took me five hours to download one song. And at the end of it I was so happy. I remember being when I worked at Fresno State streaming the show Dexter off this illegal website and it would take like three hours to watch one 40.

Minute episode because it would, it would.

Have to buffer and I was like a pig in shit. I was so happy. It was awesome. And nowadays, if our Internet, especially for those of us that pay for the highest speed, Internet isn't at warp speed and everything works perfectly, we lose it.

We wouldn't acted like that 15, 20 years ago. Why the Internet wasn't that fast.

We weren't used to the Internet working no different than cable cable television, we weren't. We didn't have the ability to press a button and something would be downloaded like that. I grew up on NFL football where my favorite player as a kid, Steve.

Young, got knocked out on the field, Aeneas Williams.

And guys used to get dropped constantly. If you threw a ball over the middle and it was in danger zone and you're in your target, your wide receiver, your tight end, your running back was going to get taken out. It would be called a hospital ball. Hell, when I worked for the Philadelphia Eagles, I remember multiple times, the ambulance.

Coming in, a guy getting carted off the field because a safety, I think.

Austin Collie one time in Philadelphia, it definitely happened to desean Jackson. On the road in Atlanta, it used to happen all the time. Guys would get killed. So safety and being cautious from quarterbacks, the way they played and the way they threw the ball down the field was a huge part of the sport. Well now because of what happened in the middle of last decade, everything was CTE and I would say, I don't want to say an over correction. I do think college, like, can peel it back a little bit. If you watch football Saturdays, Sundays, no.

One'S trying to hurt anyone anymore.

They literally used to.

I mean, Greg Williams once said, kill.

The head, the body will die. But that was like the ethos of football. Now when you watch a guy, especially on Saturdays, sometimes a guy makes a.

Last second movement in the crown of his helmet, hits him.

Suspending him for a game or kicking him out of that game is, to me, egregious. Even in the NFL, some of these.

Targeting penalties, like, I don't think this isn't John Lynch 1996. This isn't Ronnie Lott 1988.

Like, times have dramatically changed. And I give a lot of credit to the players and the coaches. The, they've kind of worked it out of the game. But quarterbacks feel much more, I would say, emboldened to run around thinking, you can't hit me. Hell, I love Patrick Mahomes. His little move on the sideline of like, I'm fake going out of bounds, I know you can't touch me. I move back and I gain more yards is insane. It should be penalized. But a lot of younger quarterbacks even feel like, I'm going to run around, you can't touch me. And I think once you get to the NFL, obviously, like in any physical contact sport or any sort of activity, that there's a physical element earning your teammates or people you play with or against respect as a competitor. And your toughness is something males like to do. So I never hold it against a player for trying to prove his toughness. But I think pretty early on, guys can tell, like, this guy's tougher.

He's not.

And most people, especially most quarterbacks in the NFL, like, we can just go around the NFL, you'd be hard pressed.

To go say, this guy's not tough, right?

But I watched Jaden Daniels, I watched Jackson dart, and my first takeaway is like, they're kind of reckless. And I understand that the game protects you now to a point, but when you run around, and I'm not saying Jaden Daniels pulled his hamstring because a reckless individual play, but I'm saying his overall game is not sustainable. And yeah, there aren't guys in the NFL that weigh 260 pounds anymore. Linebackers, right, they weigh 230 pounds, but they run way faster and they have 2% body fat and they train 365 days a year. And if they catch you on the sideline and you're not going to slide. They will rock your world. And, and the thing I respect about the mature version of Lamar Jackson and even watching Kyler Murray is they're pretty dialed into when they're running around hitting the ground. Why? Because their livelihood and most importantly, their team success.

Maybe not Kyler, but definitely Lamar.

But any decent quarterback depends on them playing in the game. It's why people are so critical of Tua as he's getting knocked out. Like Tua, you need to get down. You are not. This isn't high school football. Even Demar Hamlin is going to dominate you in the open field if you just run into him. You got to slide, you got to live to fight another down. And historically, one there hasn't, you know, up until the last, I don't know, 10 plus years, the majority of quarterbacks were statues. And we have morphed into where all.

These guys can move.

Like every single quarterback, except like Jared.

Goff is what you would consider like above average mobility.

And we have a handful of guys.

Who are like elite athletes, right?

Running dual threat quarterbacks, Peyton Manning, Tom Brady, Carson Palmer, all these guys, listen, you get hurt. Those guys have missed seasons for major injuries. It's football hell. You can get hurt training, you get hurt lifting. So like I have to be very cautious and be smart about when I'm in the open field and even in the pocket. Some of these guys, and you saw it Sam Darnold the other night, like you got to be cautious, you got to be smart because you will get injured. These guys are big, fast, strong and they get to hit you once a week. They work all season long for 17 times. It's the only time they get to tackle you. And honestly, most of these practices they don't get to tackle anybody anymore. So the violence and the way people are coached. If you went to a defensive team meeting on Wednesday, Thursday, Friday, the day before the game, the day of the game, it sounds a lot different than.

The offensive team meeting.

It would make a lot of people in society probably pretty uncomfortable. And I'm talking about people that like watching football, that watch probably many hours.

On Saturday and Sunday.

If they got to attend the defensive.

Coordinators meeting on a Saturday night, on.

Sunday at halftime, there would be a.

Lot of millions of people that would just say, listen, I get it, but like, I don't really want to know how the hot dogs made.

And it would sound way better today.

Than it would have 15, 20, 30 years ago.

And I'm watching Jaden Daniels and I'm watching Jackson Dart, I'm watching all these young quarterbacks. I mean Brock Purdy's banged up and obviously their individual injuries could be a little random, but their overall way they play, it's not a sustainable model. The reason, I mean look at Aaron Rodgers, who was kind of a dual threat scramble guy. I wouldn't call him a runner, but most of his career was relatively smart and still had a couple times where had a collarbone shattered as he got older, ripped an Achilles. You just never know that could come at any moment completely out of your control. So the things that you can control when a defender is by you, you got to learn to pick your spots. And I do wonder if these guys, starting in high school through college, these guys can't touch me. And I don't even blame them. That's kind of what I would think.

It's like they touch me, they're going to get flagged.

And most times I get touched as a younger player, I'm not getting injured. But as you go up and then once if I'm Jackson Dart, if I'm Jayden Daniels, shit, I made it through. The SEC was cool then I was playing the best players in the country. Look at me, I'm good to go. It's like you're playing now the best of the best. Who are.

Every single one of those guys is a pro. Every single one of those guys has a chance to be a multi millionaire.

You're going up against some guys making 20, 30, 35, $40 million. If you're playing Micah Parsons $47 million. You cannot run away from that guy. And if he catches you and you're not careful because you're feel invincible, he will send you to the blue tent, could knock you out a month, could end your season. And unlike a lot of these other players, think about this.

The 49ers are a good example.

Fred Warner's the best linebacker in the league. I would say Nick Bosa, he, he was coming off a down season, but.

I thought based on early in the.

Season looked like one of the best.

Players in the league. Again, both of them gone for the.

Year, 49 is probably still going to win 10 games with their backup quarterback. Why? Because Mac Jones is a serviceable quarterback. But if they didn't have Mac Jones and they had Kyle Allen like they did last year, they'd win six or seven games. Even if Nick Bosa and Fred Warner were playing your value.

We know this from a gambling standpoint.

When a starting quarterback goes out, when.

Lamar's out or when he's in can.

Be worth anywhere from seven to 10 points. That's an objective. No one cares. No emotion involved. These are the facts. And so when I see Jaden Daniels who had this incredible rookie season, I.

Go, God, I just, I, I hope.

He can corral his talents a little bit because his, the way he plays is not. Look at the guy he is playing with, Marcus Mariota, bunch of injuries early in his career also, same type of thing. Little reckless as a player. I'm watching Jackson Dart, who is someone that I hope has like a 15 year career. I know this. The way he's playing currently of just given zero, you know, what about anything when it comes to his body, he will not have a long career playing like that. Now it's hard to like coach that out of you. And who knows, maybe it's not coachable once you hit a certain point. But if they do want to play for a long time, we got to have. No one's asking you to play like.

Peyton Manning and Tom Brady where you don't move from a two or three yard radius.

But you, you can't take unneeded hits.

For the hell of it. It's just, it's just not.

You can't have a long career doing it. It's just not possible.

Not a quarterback.

I saw an interesting stat that Kyle Shanahan is 17 and 7 when his.

Quarterback'S injured and he has to play with a backup.

On the flip side, John Harbaugh when lamar's injured is 2 and 6. And I was thinking like, because I saw Matt Mayoku who has covered the.

49Ers for decades, I think, I think close to 30 years. And I.

He went on local radio today.

KNBR for those of you in the East coast, like WFANS big big channel, unlike WFAN, it's not quite as powerful as it was in its heyday, but.

It'S still, you can hear it up.

And down the state of California. And he said that Kyle Shanahan essentially is a lifetime contract. He would either have to quit on his own or have something, you know.

Crazy happen off the field. But if he wants to keep coaching.

The 49ers, he's going nowhere.

And I see a Stat like this, 17 and 7 with your backup quarterback.

That's where your value is derived from.

You know, like Andy Reid, for example. People think that he's become this legendary.

Guy because he's won these Super Bowls.

And obviously his status in the NFL.

Going to 5 of 6 and winning all these games with Patrick Mahomes has like, cemented his legacy.

I'd argue his legacy. Legacy is the wrong word, but I'd argue his status in the league was set over the years of winning with random guys. Remember when Donovan McNabb, I think, ruptured.

His spleen and they made the playoffs.

With an old Jeff Garcia? Remember when he traded for Alex Smith who had like a season and a half of good football and then went to the playoffs four or five years and competed toe to toe with Philip Rivers in his prime and a loaded Denver Bronco team like we know, Andy Reid, Sean Payton, Kyle Shanahan, Sean McVeigh. If I give them the best quarterback in the league or top two or three quarterback in the league, they're going to dominate. But what do you do when I take that guy away? What do you do when I give you someone random? Because let's face it, the beginning of the year, if I said you had to start 10 games with Mac Jones, whether you're Andy Reid, whether you're Kyle Shanahan or whether you're the, you know, the New York jets, all of our answers, I'm guilty of this too, would.

Have said, you're in trouble. That is not going to go well. Now if you know, we would all.

Agree that Andy Reid would have a better chance to win some games with Mac Jones than the Jets. But would I say, hey, would they be a Super bowl contender?

You'd say no chance.

But that's the value of a star.

Coach, especially an offensive one, is they.

Can take random guys, not even random guys, but people whose value is down just simply their backup quarterback and continue to win. And sometimes like the backup quarterback, like Jacoby Brissette, is he a better player than Kyler Murray? Yeah, he might be, but that's like up for debate. They just gave Brock Purdy 200 plus million dollars. He's missing again this week. If you told me he never plays again this season, I think that's possible. He has an injury that simply does not go away and he's not going to get surgery in the middle of the season. So there's a chance that even if he tries to come back in a practice, he could re injure it. We never see him again. The 49ers with Mac Jones, I would say their floor would probably be 10 games. If he plays well in some of these tougher games, who's to say they couldn't win 12? That's with missing Brandon Iuk the entire season. Fred Warner, broken foot Nick Bosa, torn acl. And it's why, when we bring up John Harbaugh, it's like, okay, John, you're great with Lamar Jackson, but wouldn't most coaches be, you know, like, that's impressive, I guess. But what do you do when he's injured and we see you're terrible, you.

Have no shot, your team's loses.

And that's where you start asking these questions of, like, how valuable is he? Is he replaceable? Because the guy that's not replaceable is Lamar Jackson. The guy that is replaceable, I think it's fair to say, is John Harbaugh and Kyle Shanahan, like, listen, Jed Yorko, I'm paying him a lot of money. He's probably underpaid, given how many wins you get out of him with just chaotic quarterback play. And last but not least, Sean Payton. I understand how the story took on a life of its own when Russell.

Wilson put out a tweet, basically taking a shot at Sean Payton for taking a shot at him, calling him classless, whatever.

So I just went back and rewatched what Sean Payton said in my first one. Overall theme I have just in general in society is the Internet has created this world where if everyone agrees that the sky is red, if you say the sky is blue, everyone goes, what.

The fuck are you talking about?

We're so big into optics and. And saying the right thing, even if it's not true, but it'll make people feel good. So it's like, okay, did I listen to this wrong? Like Woody Johnson, I understand people going, yeah, probably not the best idea. Even if Woody Johnson says that they're his quarterback, struggles to complete passes, and essentially isn't good at football universally. You couldn't meet one jets fan, you couldn't meet one football fan who has watched the jets, gambled on the jets, has fantasy players on the jets, who has paid attention. The jets go, he's not lying. But as the owner of the team, given that your team's in shambles, given that your team is just, I don't know, just always chaotic, crazy, a laughing stock. Like, just adding fuel to the fire, not needed. It would have been an easy thing to bullshit your way through, right? To go, listen, our quarterback struggling, our offense is struggling. We're all struggling. We're going to keep working hard and we'll be better. It just would have made the story less of a story. And I've come to the conclusion is like, I don't even think Woody Johnson.

Realizes what he's saying.

And maybe that's the case of being born into crazy wealth, being so rich.

And being a little out of it.

Like I don't even think he realizes his comments create a bigger issue. And who knows, maybe he doesn't give a shit because I also think that's at play. But I rewatched Sean Payton's comments about saying how good Jackson Dart was and how an ownership in which he worked for decades ago and like he said, still friends with the marrows. The Tish's how he said, like listen, I was hoping you wouldn't make the change. Everyone thinks that universally agreed upon that once.

It's not even debatable.

It's not like a subjective thought at.

This point in time.

It's literally a fact that since Jackson Dart has come in, an offense in a team that was in shambles has averaged over 25 points a game and is 6 in the NFL and scoring during that time. And just from a a static eye.

Test standpoint, he looks fantastic.

One of the fun young players in the National Football League and honestly one of the more entertaining young quarterbacks in recent memory. Looks like he's got a chance as long as he can be a little more careful run around to be a stud. And that's what Sean Payton told him. Like you guys got a good one and somehow and I get it because their paths crossed. But honestly rewatching that again, I'm like, I don't think he was going out of his way in this comeback. Is like he can be a dick, he can be a D back. And maybe some of those things are true. I don't know Sean Payton. But on that individual instance, I don't think it was a route Russell Wilson, I honestly don't think it had anything to do with Russell Wilson. I don't think he gives a crap about Russell Wilson anymore. And, and you know who definitely doesn't? Giants fans.

Why?

Because they get that quarterback. He was putting your guy on a pedestal saying like you got something special here. I was hoping we wouldn't had to play them. Part of running a football team is you're getting ready for stuff way ahead early in the season. You start game planning in training camp. So this notion that he was like going out of his way classless, I.

I just didn't see it.

Now I get we're in this world.

Where I guess on the Internet, at.

Least not in society, in real world.

Doesn'T act like that. But like you have to pretend something.

Is true even though it's not true. Like we all can agree Russell Wilson's not good anymore. If you were a coach, if you were a player, if you were a gambler, if you were anybody, you would rather play Russell Wilson than Jackson Dart. That is like 100% universally agreed upon. Yet a guy doesn't even say that, but people think he's alluding to that. It becomes a national story in his class list. I do think it's funny. And again, this. Maybe it's the Internet. Not a great representation of people. Everyone can agree with something, even the Woody Johnson thing. I would say if you just go on social media during the course of this season, every person. And you could probably even find like a brother, sister, or someone related to him kind of shitting on Justin Fields. And I feel bad, like, I've never thought he was that a good player, but he's really earned my respect the way he's handled some of these weird.

Situations in Chicago, in Pittsburgh.

So it's like, I like the guy. So it's like, I'm not gonna just.

Take a dump on him for being a bad player.

Never thought he was that good once he kind of established that he can't really throw in the pocket. But we all agreed, like, he's not any good. Then the owners like eggs, not any good. And people are like, oh, what an asshole. How can you believe that? Even though I believe it, but you can't say that. Well, I can say it, but you can't say it. That's what. That's what it feels like.

A lot of this is.

Which is just exhausting. I can't do these mental gymnastics.

And.

And listen, I get Russell Wilson or Sierra, whoever put that tweet out, standing up for himself because everyone's been crapping.

On him for a while.

Hell, his own teammates at Seattle, they don't like him. Like, that's. Again, this isn't. It'd be one thing if, like, can you believe he took a shot at Cam Hayward? Can you believe that?

That guy said something about Max Crosby? He's like, well, it's not a left field.

What do you.

This guy said something about something bad about Justin Herbert, or, you know, you.

Just pick the good Roquan Smith. No, you don't hear those things. Get everyone now for a decade plus, his own teammates didn't like him. We didn't create that story.

They literally did.

John Snyder, Pete Carroll pretty much over him. Sean Payton immediately over him. The Pittsburgh Steelers couldn't get rid of them fast enough. And it's like, Sean Payton's the Bad guy now. People like, middle cuff. You're just sticking up. I don't. I've never had one interaction with Sean Payton. I don't know one guy on a staff. I have no connection to Sean Payton. I don't care at all. But I also think this story is just insane.

Other than that, I just. The double header thing, I promise you, I saw Florio post about it, that the numbers are up, and it just. It's just not going to go away. I'm not going to.

I'm trying not to complain about football because I love football and I do love watching it. I just don't like Monday night doubleheaders. I get it from a fantasy standpoint. I don't know, maybe it's nostalgia.

Playing on Monday Night Football is a really big deal.

Like, when I was a kid, if your team was playing on Monday Night Football, hell, even teams that you didn't care about, like, oh, I get to.

Watch the Chiefs play the Broncos or.

I get to watch the jets play the Dolphins. I just think, like, Monday Night Football to me is a very meaningful three hours. It was a really big deal. And it almost feels. And this is the modern day NFL.

They don't care about anything. I mean, look at the European game.

Game's terrible every single week. Even when in theory it's good. Teams like Rams, Jags, it's fired up.

I wake up, it's 14 nothing. I'm like, this game is trash.

So I. Maybe I'm, you know, a dying breed. Feel like, get off my lawn. But I just. Monday Night Football should be a sacred.

Place for one game, you know, I.

But if you told me that in five years, for 10 weeks of the year, there's a double header, I'd believe you. Who knows?

Maybe it'll be 16 weeks a year. Maybe it'll just be double headers Thursday night as well. Sunday night as well.

Maybe it just won't stop.

So maybe I need to change my.

Tune and carry myself off my lawn into reality, into Roger Goodell's office.

I'm just going, double headers.

Hell, we had a Monday through Tuesday, Wednesday, just double headers all over the place. I wouldn't put it past them at this point. Today's show is brought to you by.

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[John Middlekauff]

We haven't done this in a little while, but we got a lot going on right now in college football. We got guys getting fired left and right. Some of the biggest jobs in America.

Penn State, Florida. It looks like you know Mike Norvell at Florida State. You got Brian Kelly at LSU fending off the buyouts. So we got a lot going on. So I said, you know what? Let's bring in, as I called him yesterday on the podcast, a little overachieving slot receiver. I guessed he was a 47 guy, but hey, listen, he played college football.

At Montana, which is a place I.

Have a lot of respect for when I was scouting, I actually watched a.

Game there and I sat next to, I stood next to it because I watched the game on the sideline next to Tinkle, the basketball coach. Yeah. Who then went to Oregon State. The guy was awesome. I mean, we just, we just ended up talking football. He remember he took Oregon State to the Final Four probably like, I don't know, seven, eight years ago. He was, he was really cool. But that, that's awesome place. So let's bring in. He used to be intern Jackson. Now he's just producer Jackson.

What's up, bro?

How you doing?

[Jackson (Producer)]

I am doing great. Repping the Montana Grizzlies, not the Montana Pandas, according to the Sacramento State president. But yeah, so much going on in college football in terms of the hot seats, in terms of coaching. You've been covering college football for a while. Like, is there ever been really, really quick, though.

[John Middlekauff]

Did we get a verified 40 for you?

Like, what?

[Jackson (Producer)]

Oh, yeah, yeah. Four, seven, six, I think was my best, which, I don't know, you're an NFL scout. I don't know how much what, what round I would get drafted in. I know my stats weren't great in college. Didn't even see the field in college. But a 4, 7, 5, but ran a 3, 9 in the, in the, what is it, the 5, 10, 5 shuttle, which I got that agile, I got the hands, I can't really run the go route, but third and five. You need something? I got you.

[John Middlekauff]

I mean, Keenan Allen, if you remember at Cal, had like kind of messed up his knee or something, refused to run the 40, and then kind of.

Did like a week before the combine.

I, I think if we time Keenan Allen, especially at this age, he's probably four a guy. Listen, if you work the middle of the field, you do not need to be Justin Jefferson there on the outside. So it's, it's about toughness, it's about.

Willingness, and it's about really just kind of getting open in short areas.

[Jackson (Producer)]

Just get open, catch the ball. That's all that matters. I mean, you're not getting open on.

[John Middlekauff]

Derek Stingley or anything.

[Jackson (Producer)]

No, no.

[John Middlekauff]

Hell no.

[Jackson (Producer)]

I think I could maybe get open on Jalen Ramsey, though. That's probably the one.

[John Middlekauff]

I don't think you're getting that off the line.

I, I'm gonna, I'm gonna red flag that one.

[Jackson (Producer)]

He's like, timeout. No, no, you're a little too cocky there.

[John Middlekauff]

I, I, I would bet a lot of money that if we had, let's say, 20 reps and you lined up and he, and he got to press you. There is. You would not get two feet off the, off the line of scrimmage.

[Jackson (Producer)]

What is the average play? Four to six seconds. So I'd get probably three seconds to get off the ball.

[John Middlekauff]

Maybe Dale Ramsey's also. I mean, what are you, like 5, 10, 5 11.

[Jackson (Producer)]

Yeah, 5 10.

[John Middlekauff]

Jalen Ramsey's like 6, 2.

He's long arms, he's tough. You no chance?

[Jackson (Producer)]

Zero.

[John Middlekauff]

There might be some guys that you could do that against.

He would not be one of them.

[Jackson (Producer)]

That's, I mean. Yeah.

[John Middlekauff]

Fair.

I mean, he's probably like a borderline.

Hall of Famer who's like one of the more physical corners.

[Jackson (Producer)]

He is, but he's getting older. I mean, I guess it's tough to guard some of these receivers. Like, who do you have to guard the other night and got.

[John Middlekauff]

Yeah.

Jamar Chase.

[Jackson (Producer)]

What it. What an intro to the. But speaking of, speaking of people with no chance, let's get, let's dive into it. Coaching chaos. A bunch of college football got burning six pack questions. College football. Let's get into it. Speaking of some guys that are now on the hot seat. Never thought Billy Naper was going to get fired. You thought he was gonna get fired. Last year they kept him. Another year, they beat Mississippi State. Big man pick the players around and around him. You think, hey, maybe he lives to see another week he gets fired. So first question, hot seat. Watch who's going to be next? Hugh Freeze. His name's thrown around. Mike Norvell, Florida State. Brian Kelly, Luke Fickle. Like, what in your mind? Who's on the hot. Who's on the hot seat next to get fired in this college football carousel?

[John Middlekauff]

Well, I was watching the pregame for Ole Miss. Maybe it was on social media. It might have been on tv. And it was Lane Kiffin, a couple hours before the game, walking out when they were playing Georgia. And Jimmy Sexton is a hard guy to miss. I mean, he's, you know, his body shape is pretty distinct, and he obviously is the most powerful man in college football. And I think one thing that he's done because he represents anyone who makes any decent size of money, is he's made this pretty complicated. And firing guys like Brian Kelly, for example, when Brian Kelly signed his contract, whatever, four years ago, it was fully guaranteed, like $95 million. So it's, it's just really difficult to fire him.

Same thing with Mike Norvell.

I think it's over $50 million now.

I, I had to Tap out on.

Saturday, like, I'm not going to watch Florida State, Stanford, but when I woke.

Up and saw the floor when I.

Went to bed, I was looking on my phone and it was like, I don't know, 13, 6, or maybe, maybe it was the final score, maybe it was going into the second half and I, I was pretty shell shocked when I woke up and they had lost.

So it's like you can't lose to Stanford if you're Florida State.

But can they afford to pay him 50 plus million? Because that's, I saw Urban Meyer say this the other day is it's not just firing the guy to go away. Even if you can pay him incrementally over the course of like five years.

If you're Florida State, you want to.

Hire the next, you know, Brian Kelly, Lincoln Riley, whoever, that guy costs a lot of money and that I just think this stuff's really, really complicated.

The Hugh Freeze, they're losing these crazy games. Like they are not, they're a good example.

Like they're not that bad. Like Florida State's worse than Auburn. Like I watch Auburn play. Like they're in these games with Georgia, they're in this game with Mizzou, they're losing in overtime.

The place is rocking. They're losing to Stanford.

So you could argue Florida like Mike Norvell back to back years. They haven't won an ACC game in two years.

Right?

[Jackson (Producer)]

Two years, yeah.

[John Middlekauff]

And the ACC is not that good.

[Jackson (Producer)]

It's not like, hey, you know, look.

[John Middlekauff]

Who they're losing to. I mean, Stanford just fired their coach six months ago. Stanford's terrible. Stanford's terrible.

[Jackson (Producer)]

So I don't know, I mean, I would guess Hugh Freeze.

[John Middlekauff]

I think a lot of people assume Brian Kelly, but I, I, I'm actually not that confident.

I saw T. Bob, who works for.

Barstool now, but he's, he used to have a show here on the Volume with Aaron Murray. He's a big LSU guy, right?

[Jackson (Producer)]

Played at lsu.

[John Middlekauff]

And he, he kind of went on.

This rant like, whatever happened to hey.

Brian, we're paying you $95 billion. How about you figure this out? We've seen you win 10, 11, 12 games. You know, this is not like we treat it like you cut a guy.

In training camp, like just get rid of them.

It's not that easy.

And listen, maybe Brian Kelly is not clearly Nick Saban or Urban Meyer, but.

Like, how is he worse now than.

He was at Notre Dame when it should be way easier to get way sweeter players in At Notre Dame or in the lsu.

And how's his offensive line so bad? Like, that's like what he hung his offensive line, running game. And you watch it lsu, like, what is going on? So I, I, I, I would guess.

He gets more time. I, I would say, obviously, Hugh Freeze and those other two guys, like, it wouldn't shock me at all if they survived just based on money. James Franklin had been there 11 years. You know, it's not, we, I think we talk about James Franklin like he got fired overnight. He had been there a long time. Right. He took the job back when Bill o' Brien got hired into the Texans.

[Jackson (Producer)]

Bill, Mike Norvell is interesting because you mentioned the $50 million. I think his, I think his buyout's actually 76 million. I think it's like one of the highest buyouts and the, the entire staff as a whole is $100 million. But you watch Florida State, to your point about Auburn, Auburn's at least live in these games. They have NFL talent. Keldrick Felk, Cam Coleman, Eric Singleton, they got guys on either side. But Auburn, like lsu, their offensive linemen are horrible. And they also have been poorly recruited at the quarterback position. Jackson Arnold holding onto the ball probably longer than anybody on earth. He's probably still holding onto the ball as we speak in the pocket. And to his credit, the offensive line has been horrible. But I agree with you, I think Hugh Freeze. But Hugh Freeze is kind of the same situation of Billy Napier, where if you're Auburn, okay, yes, the referees are helping you out a little bit, but if we go through the same cycle once again with all this talent that we've invested in in the Portal or certain high school recruiting, like what, what if next year for Auburn, they have the same exact type of, you know, pattern or same type of like problems or issues going on, then they're in the situation with Florida where we're like, oh, shit, like we're screwed.

[John Middlekauff]

Yeah. I mean, I think that some of these programs, they're all holding themselves up to basically Nick Saban and Urban Meyer, and that's just not realistic anymore. It's going to be much more fickle year to year now. I, I can't listen. Hugh Freeze, the guy that Wright was posting about, God and then sleeping with the prostitutes in my.

[Jackson (Producer)]

Confused.

[John Middlekauff]

Okay, I get some of these guys in the south confused. Clearly a lot of people think highly of him as an offensive mind. Right? That's his thing. Right. He's an offensive quote unquote guru, just like Brian Kelly is a Offensive line, running game guru. Like, that's kind of what they hung their hat on and it's not working. I think that's where that you have these concerns. But Hugh's also like battling cancer or something. A lot going on there. I just think you miss on these quarterbacks. Look at Mike Norvell. He's basically treated Florida State like the Washington back when they were the Redskins with Daniel Snyder. Used to treat free agency. They thought they could just buy a team. That's not really how football works. Like, when you look at Nick Saban's great teams or Urban Meyer's great teams.

It was pretty organic. Even Ohio State, like last year, most of those guys were homegrown guys. Now you can't.

The transfer portal, you definitely can supplement, add a guy here or there.

But like the best teams in the country, like how many guys at Oregon are guys they recruited? You know, at Georgia, a lot of these are homegrown guys.

And I think just buying your whole.

Team is not going to work. Look at Lane last year.

Wasn't he called the transfer portal king and it kind.

It didn't work. Texas Tech's a good example.

Like, obviously their roster is pretty loaded individually. Like position by position.

They're spending $28 million. They bought their whole team. They got into a little adversity on the road and they kind of crumbled.

Now, maybe that would happen anyway if you had a homegrown team, but it's.

I, I do think you can't just.

Pass up recruiting like the old school way of recruiting high school kids. And Hugh Free is a good example. Like signed Jackson Arnold and I think they gave him millions of dollars, which pretty nuts. And same.

Same with. Same with Florida State. They signed Bill o'. Brien's.

I don't want to say trash. I mean, he was a decent player for him, but didn't he kind of.

Like quit on the team? They benched him. Like, it isn't one of the big stories right now coming out of Florida.

State as guys have tuned them out. Well, of course.

They just, they showed up like six months ago. You think you're tuning out Kirby Smart or Ryan Day or these. They've known you since you were like 15 years old.

You have a strong relationship with them. And I think sometimes the transfer portal, when you just try to buy a team at that level. Right. Some teams don't have a choice. But like when you are viewing yourself as a top five, top ten program, I, I think it can really bite you in the ass. And that's I think that's what Dabo would say. Now Dabo can't even beat SMU anymore, so he's got bigger problems. But I do think there's got to be some bound. I would, if I were the top programs I would spend so much time on high school recruiting and then try to supplement couple guys here and there. And no, it gets very risky very fast and they hit. I think one of the issues for Norvell, he had home runs with like three guys, right. Jared Verse from Albany, Fisk I think was from like Wake Forest and Keon Coleman was from Michigan State and those three guys are, you know, high end starters in the NFL. Well, Keon Coleman still got some work to do, but he was high draft pick for a reason and they've just tried to find that again and it just doesn't really work.

[Jackson (Producer)]

Yeah, and I think for Jordan Travis he stayed homegrown. So they had success from a guy that's been in the program for a couple years and that learned and developed where Auburn and Florida State. You're kind of taking a chance on film but you don't know if the cohesion is going to be there. You don't know if he's going to play up to the standard. And even with Arnold, you knew he was bad at Oklahoma and I guess B Knicks was bad at Auburn. But with Will Stein and what Dan Lenning was built and what they had built around him, the transition was easy. But with Jackson Arnold it just has it. And that's where I think for Auburn, Auburn fans are kind of puzzled and they're confused and they're like, why is this happening again? It's like I could have told you that in, in the off season when you signed Jackson Arnold. So you're. I think you're right. I think another coach. What do you make of, of Brian Kelly? Because they're kind of stuck in this 10 million dollar extension and I think his issue is he needs to adapt. I know you had Josh Payton talking about he needs to adapt to the Louisiana culture and maybe needs to change things internally, but he's kind of one of those egotistic guys. I mean you see the Notre Dame helm in the back. He wanted it, he wanted it his way. He doesn't want to do it any other way because he thinks his way is the only way. And last year they spent a lot of money. Number one portal class, all this returning production and they got a home game against Texas A and M. They're gonna have a bunch of angry cajun fans, they lose that game. And you got at Alabama, you got at Oklahoma, moving on, you're 8 and 4, 7 and 5. It's like, do we have that conversation for LSU? But like, who do you go out and get? Do you try to change internally? That situation seems like more of a blunder than all the other situations.

[John Middlekauff]

Well, I think I do support the Louisiana contingent that many people would say can be a little crazy. It's one thing if Alabama is better than you, and it's one thing if Georgia is better than you. Because when Brian Kelly arrived, those programs were better than him. Vanderbilt has now passed lsu. I mean, they kicked the shit out of him. I watched every snap of that game that the final score did not indicate what I watched. Pavia was running all over them. Their offensive line, I saw, was it.

Gruden or Baldi or someone posted some clips.

Their offensive line was destroying lsu. Now it turns out I think they got some high end offensive linemen, but still.

And if Vandy Lane passed LSU like.

Two years ago, so it's like we've.

Been passed by Ole Miss and now we're passed by Vanderbilt.

What are we doing? Because obviously Alabama and Georgia are ahead of us, so that's a problem. And I don't know if LSU played Texas this year. Obviously Texas is a better program. You would say big picture, you know, once they get this art situation figured out. So I, I think if you're lsu, you go, how did this happen?

You know, even if, you know, when Brian was hired, it's like, well, is.

He actually a national championship winning coach? And I, I think you could obviously have had that argument though. I, I think the games he lost when he was at Notre Dame to Alabama, like they have a better team.

But that what he did at Notre Dame was pretty impressive. And now what he's doing at LSU.

Is kind of the opposite.

It feels like it's getting worse. And I don't know if he's hired the wrong coaches because at the end of the day, you know, he's a.

CEO head coach, right? He's not like, in theory it feels.

Like the offense is his baby, but.

Like whoever his offensive coordinator is has the juice. And obviously defensively, he is very beholden, whoever that guy is. For the most part, his higher defensive coordinator last two years was good. But yeah, I, I think that that.

Like Ole Miss, once Ole Miss beat.

Him again, it's like, okay, Lane's better than him, which is, yeah, Lane's a better coach. Everyone would hire Lane over him.

I I guess you could live with that, though, if you're an LSU fan.

It's like, well, why don't we just fire him and hire Lane then? If Florida's gonna. Why wouldn't we just get Lane? And who knows? Maybe Lane would not be interested in lsu. It's like they'll just go to Florida or nothing or go to, you know, school like that. Maybe he wants to Miami. Florida State would rather be in that state than Louisiana. But once Vanderbilt and Clark Lee are working you, that, to me, is like, I. I can't. If I was a fan, I wouldn't even be able to take him seriously anymore. And A M last year, now this game's in Louisiana.

But remember, that was like. I remember watching that here, right behind.

Me on the couch, and LSU was kicking their ass. I was like, God, Nessmeyer, this.

This guy looks like the number one pick, second half.

I think Marcel Reed came into the game, and I don't think LSU's ever recovered from that game.

They haven't quite. Because at that. For that half, you're like, lsu's really good.

And then ever since, it's just. I mean, are they. Are they gonna end up going 8 and 4? Because that's what it feels like. 8, 7, and 5. And it's like you go back to.

Back years, and even the year you had Jaden with those two wide receivers.

Like, you went nine and three.

Like, you look back, you're like, how did we LSU battle on defense?

That's what doesn't make sense. They always have defensive linemen. They always have dbs name drop. I was just. I sent John Schneider a text just like, man your team, you're crushing it. And then he's like, yeah, we. We got that at the Houston defense is no joke. I'm like, yeah, Stingley's pretty good, you.

Know, I mean, that guy Will Anderson's pretty good. But that's like, what I think. Bama, lsu.

I think Will Anderson, Stingley, I'm watching lsu.

It's like, where are your height? Where are your impact guys?

And you just wonder, like, does he not have a great feel for. I don't know, it. Clearly something's off. There's no disputing that. It's just not working, right?

Like, James Franklin didn't work because, like.

Something about him in the big games, right?

But no one ever argued, like, his.

Team was loaded, right? It's like, that guy could recruit. And it's why, if Auburn hires him, if Florida hires them, like, the team will be loaded it's just like in game. The thing with Brian Kelly, it's like, what's he going to be like recruiting these kids down the sec? You're just watching. You're like, I don't.

Something's off.

I'm not trying to pretend like I'm Rivals.com number one user here, but I, I watch enough football to know like, I know what SEC guys look like. And he's been lapped by, you know, I mean, Clark Lee and that GM of his in Vanderbilt. Like, if, if you had to buy, like if you were just program X and you could have anyone, you wouldn't even hesitate going in on those guys over Brian Kelly in his operation, which would have been unheard of to say out loud, like three years ago, we.

[Jackson (Producer)]

Should have known that Brian Kelly was going to go downhill when he faked that southern accent at that pep rally or when he was dancing with that recruit. Like, I feel like once you saw that, we should have known it was going downhill for lsu. I mean.

[John Middlekauff]

Yeah, I mean, I, I do think.

You have to do cheesy though, in recruiting like I do.

I'm not as bothered by tiktoks and.

[Jackson (Producer)]

Stuff to get those high school recruits and stuff. But I don't know. He's kind of older, but to your point, with their defensive issues, I think A M is going to beat him again. And I think LSU fans are going to be livid because just like last year with A M and Marcel Reed, the game that basically exposed their defense, Blake Baker can't stop a mobile quarterback and they paid him as the highest paid assistant in college football. You saw what Diego Pavia did to them last week. They couldn't get, you know, the defense off the field. They just had 11 play, 11 minute drives against LSU. That same thing's going to happen. And for, and to kind of turn the perspective a little bit as we get into Florida and Penn State, they're kind of looking for their next head coach to have a quick turnaround. A guy that's been talked about in these discussions that's going to face off against LSU is Mike Elko. What Mike Elko has done in year two at A and M, if he goes into Brian Kelly in Death Valley and beats them and they're undefeated, they're one game away last year from the SEC championship and they're in prime position again to make the SEC championship in a playoff spot in year two. That's. If I'm an LSU fan, I'd be pretty pissed off the fact that a And M. And sure they have more money, but the LSU brand, I would think in the SEC would be a lot higher than what Texas A and M is.

[John Middlekauff]

And maybe we need to change our perspective. I mean, we've always said pre nil. A and M was A was like a sleeping giant, right? It was like, this could be something. I always thought that on a lower.

Level, like, how is Fresno State good.

In San Diego State sucks?

Like, how could Pat Hill, Jim Sweeney, Jeff Tedford, all these guys build this NFL program in Fresno, Yet San Diego.

State is a laughingstock. And on a higher level, it was always like A and M, A and M. And now that you can pay.

Players, I mean, look at Tech and A and M, like those guys.

If you were Elko or Joey Maguire.

Why would you leave either one of those jobs?

Like, what do you need?

What budget do you need to pay the players?

What do you need?

Blank check. It's like, I don't think LSU has that. So.

Yeah, I mean, I, I think, I think there's a chance A blows them out. You know, wins by 20 plus points. Then all of a sudden you're like, what the fuck are we doing? The problem is financially, it does feel like ultimately the Bama conversation just kind of died because it's like, oh yeah.

Kaylin DeBoer, weird game. Alabama. Everyone was right to freak out. Like, that was a weird game.

But he's an ass kicker. And I saw the, you know, the. You see, they're like making fun of the sweatshirt now because forever it was like he didn't dress up and Saban did and now he's kicking ass. And everyone loves a sweatshirt.

And it all you got to do in the sec.

It's the thing I love about it.

The most, the Big Ten is a little.

There's other stuff at play sometimes, right? The way you act, talk about academics. It's just the universities operate a little differently, right? There is a, I don't know, an intellectual arrogance to Michigan, to Washington, to ucla.

In the sec, no one gives a.

About anything about wins and losses, you know?

Now ideally, Saban's the best example. He was like presidential.

And he was also like the greatest coach of all time.

But you can be like Lane Kiffin, shirt off with a couple babes, hot yoga. If you win 11 games, that's all they care about. So like, you talk about the, the.

Accent, the, the tick tock.

If Brian Kelly was winning 11 games in the SEC champ, no one would care. No one would care. Like Billy Napier, he just sucked like I, I looked at his record today.

At the gym the other day and they put up like the three coaches.

It's like Dan Mullen and Jim McElwaine, like those guys were kind of having some success and then he just started losing. Like he didn't get fired because he's a bad guy, because a weirdo, because he couldn't. It's just because he didn't win enough. And I think it's just, it's. The SEC is the closest thing to.

The NFL that way nothing else matters beside wins and losses.

And I would throw like Florida State.

Kind of is like that too. It's why there are people, I mean, if they, if money was an issue, Mike Norvell would have been fired a couple days ago. Hell, he might have been fired like two weeks ago. But money is an issue now for some of these programs. And in fairness, it's a lot of money. I mean, pay a guy 50, 60, $70 million to go away is pretty insane. I mean, no one in the NFL has ever been paid that much to leave beside a player.

[Jackson (Producer)]

It feels like nowadays. And Nick Saban talked about this too, about how fan bases have more power than ever because most of those people in the fan bases are nil boosters and they're the ones funding the money and they're funding the roster. But to your point, what if Texas Tech spends $28 million and they're 3 and 5 or they're 3 and 4? Texas Tech would be going at Joey, Joey McGuire like they're going at Brian Kelly.

[John Middlekauff]

Like he'd be done.

[Jackson (Producer)]

Yeah. So how do you, I mean, it's like the scientific like experiment we're seeing right now in college football. And we'll get into like this next question about is Florida or Penn State a better job? And that kind of like is in a line of what I was talking about how both, both fan bases are pissed off, they want to win because both have, especially Florida. D.J. lagway, they're sweet running back, two stud, freshman, five star wide receivers you invest all this money in, you don't get a lot of wins, then players get angry, you don't play for the head coach, they transfer. So my question to you for the second one is, is Florida or Penn State a better job? And then kind of talk about who are some intriguing candidates to you for both positions.

[John Middlekauff]

Well, let's just talk about like forever.

Part of the reason a guy would go from San Diego State to Michigan, right, Or Urban Meyer, Utah to Florida, or when I was at Fresno State Pat Hill would interview for Pac12jobs because you got a huge race. Right. And even like you would leave in conference for USC's coordinator, Danton Lynn left UCLA to USC because they like doubled his money.

Well, all the top jobs, at least.

The top, let's say 10, 15, 20 jobs pay a ton. Like Lane Kiffin makes 10, 11 million dollars. Right. Sigdetti just got paid 11 million.

So there is no difference of pay.

For Lane Kiffin or Brian Kelly or Marcus Freeman to move around.

So money now has no factor, especially.

If they're like we're willing to pay your staff or willing to pay, you know, your roster.

The money at the top, the top guys is relatively even. So it's much more about like what are the expectations. I'd argue Penn State is much worse than Florida just based on Dean Franklin's been win 10, 11 games, he's been in the top 10. It feels like most years he was just runner up.

Well, I guess he lost in the final four, but he was a couple.

Plays away from being in the finals. Right. He was, was beating Notre Dame like he ran a really good program producing ton of top draft picks. Like he was crushing everything except winning the national championship and beating Ohio State. Right.

And the Harbaugh version of Michigan. I think he would probably beat this version of Sharon Moore.

But I think Florida's expectations, while they are high, you are getting in kind.

Of on the ground floor.

They've been really bad.

You know, if you won nine games in, in 20, 20, what, what's 25? So by 27, Lane Kiffin went 9 and 3, it'd be a pretty big deal.

If you went 9 and 3 at Penn State, people would like what are we doing? So I, you could argue just based.

On the expectations and based on the previous success, the standard is pretty low at Florida. I mean the expectations in theory are high, but like they, they haven't sniffed being good in a while relative to the conference.

Penn State, they were in the conference championship last game or last year against Oregon. Now you could argue that part of.

The reason is, is Ohio State blew the game to Michigan. So it's like were they, they weren't one of the two best teams in the conference because Oregon that kicked their ass and obviously Ohio State had beaten them in Penn State if I remember correctly. Yeah, but still like James, we can nitpick him relative to like Sabin Kirby Smart Ryan Day, but he was the top of that next tier. Florida would die for to be in that tier. Right. If Billy Napier was in that tier, he would not be fired. James Franklin was fired because he just couldn't get out of that tier. So they view themselves right or wrong. Like we should be Oregon, Ohio State and the Harbaugh version of Michigan's equal and we're willing to spend for it. But that is like I'm trying to think, let's say Matt Rule or Signetti had gone there. Like your expectations would be like you should be in the final four every year. And I, I don't. You know, it's hard. I mean it's Ohio State right now is clearly the best run program in the country and Oregon is really high up there top three or four. So it's like that's and if, if USC continues to spend money, they're clearly on the come. Notre Dame is not going away. So you just look at that region. You know, I don't know if Sharon Moore is good enough or not, but if he's not, they'll replace him with someone sweet. So it's really, really hard. I'd argue Florida is dramatically better job than Penn State based on all that factor.

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[John Middlekauff]

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[Jackson (Producer)]

So are you pretty? You're pretty set on Florida going after Elaine Kiffin. Penn State's interesting because you mentioned Matt Rule. Obviously he wanted to go for Signetti. He signed that extension. I think the most intriguing part about all this coaching movement and stuff is the guys that are out there. Alma maters like Clark Lee's name's thrown out a lot. Brent Key's name's thrown out a lot. And I've been looking back. There's not a lot of maybe today there's more money than ever in college football, but there hasn't really been a guy that's left his alma mater for a bigger job. Like do you think that could happen out of all these other jobs or you think Penn State's just, I feel like Penn State's just going to hire some random person because I feel like they're going to go after all these people. And you and me have talked over and over about this. With the calendar of the playoff schedule, most of the top coaches that you can maybe poach at of those lower tier, the Vanderbilts, the Georgia Techs, or even if you're Florida this weekend, you're hoping Ole Miss loses so you don't they don't make the playoff. Like that whole situation with the, with the early signing day and the portal window being in January just seems like a blunder and kind of like a disadvantage for the Penn States and the fort is that they want to go after and poach those coaches.

[John Middlekauff]

And I think part of it, like if you hired Clark Lee and Brent Key are bad examples because it'd be pretty impressive what they've done. But Matt Rule is a good example. It's like, well, why is Matt Rule any different than James Franklin? And if anything it's like where is Matt Rule proven that he can recruit at the level of James Franklin? So it's going to be very hard for Penn State to make a hire and be like this is incredible. Right? You could have said it's Signetti and I, I would be, I would say it'd be hard to not be excited if Penn State had pulled off hiring Signetti. But yeah, I mean I, I, I listen I, I, I, I think sometimes we talk about the like where you went to school in coaching there, like part of it for Clark Lee and Brent Key, like that was the best job they could get at the time. There obviously is connection, but that was if you're 40, 45 years old, that's 20, 25 years ago. So the guy like most of the people that were there when you are long gone and most of these coaches beside like Pat Fitzgerald or Mike Gundy have bounced around. Right? I bet if we, I, I don't know where else Clark Lee is coached, but he had probably been at a bunch of different places before he comes back. It's a very nomadic profession.

Plus I think that like we have.

Seen a lot of examples of if.

It starts going the other way, they will fire you immediately.

You know, Cliff Kingsbury. See ya. Pat Fitzgerald, who like Northwestern more than any human ever. You know, things got a little weird with that. The hazing thing. And they, they fired him without hesitation. So I think it's kind of a cutthroat job. You know, these coaches, you got to be very conditionally loyal because it can change. For there aren't many Nick Sabins or Bobby Bowden's, you know, or, or the kind of the rope Kirby Smart has. Things just get weird and you become a, you know, a product of your own success and the expectations that you created. You see dabo battling with this. Now, in fairness, like dabo watch. Your team is pretty terrible. Like, it's like, what are they supposed to say? But it's like, it's more fickle now. It can happen randomly. And I do wonder if you're at Vanderbilt, for example, like, you kind of got to strike when the iron's hot. Same thing, you know, I think Sigdetti could say is like, well, I've had two years, two different quarterbacks and different core group of guys now. I guess there's, there's some carryover still. But he lost his quarterback, he lost some other guys to the draft. He's pretty confident that he can do it. I think if you're Clark Lee, you know, are you going to be able to maintain this at Vanderbilt would be.

Way more likely at Indiana that he can be a competitive 8 to 10 win team on a yearly basis then.

Vanderbilt be consistently like in the playoff mix, I think. Would you agree with that?

[Jackson (Producer)]

Yeah, because, I mean, Pavi is a super senior. He's the heart and soul of that team. Haynes King's a super senior. He's the heart and soul of Georgia Tech. Both those guys, they give them ball like 15 times a game or running through tackles or get up, get hit a bunch of times. Like, those are the heart and souls of each team. That's the reason why their programs are both top 10 programs in college football, which is still weird to me. But to your point about Clark Lee, strike when the iron's hot. That's not to the level of this, but that was like when Kaylin DeBoer left Washington to Alabama. And I thought he was going to do it because Penix was gone. A lot of returning production. All these senior guys that, that led him to the national championship were leaving. So that was kind of his way out. So for, for Clark Lee and Brent Key to your point. Yeah, like, they have an emotional tie because that's their alma mater. But how realistically is it for them to make the playoff next year or be at the caliber or what they're at, especially with the Vanderbilt and Georgia that, let's face it, maybe the NIL boosters weren't expecting this great of a season from those two schools. So I think it's, I think it's an interesting kind of scenario and an interesting kind of topic in today's, you know, college football about those guys that.

[John Middlekauff]

Are tasked I do think is a good example is in no world nil Pre Nil the 50s, 2025. Is Washington never a better job than Alabama football. And I think that gets the case that if you know, I, I'd have to look at Clark Lee's background. But let's say Auburn and let's say Brian Kelly's fired as well and both those two programs offer Clark lead the job. I think you could argue he's pretty nuts if he doesn't seriously consider it. Right. I get he's loyal. The one thing you have going for him, and he'd know this better than us on the outside is like the nil world with some of these smaller cities where these Baton Rouge or.

You.

Know, some of these programs that aren't in bigger cities. Like I better know the boosters have an unwilling, a willingness to just open the wallet constantly and maybe Nashville, they can tap into some of the corporations around there that it's not dependent on like former alumni. Like not, not everyone is going to have like this Texas Tech situation where this former offensive lineman hits a bunch of honey holes and then goes becomes a multi billionaire and just writes an unlimited check. So that, that has to factor in. But I'm watching Auburn at night going God, I mean they've been, they've won a national championship with Cam. They got back in another game when who they, oh, they lost to Florida State. So it's like that, that and that.

Was during the saving era.

So I don't know man. I, I, I think you got to be very careful. And they're in a profession where you got to be willing to move. I mean that's part of the deal, right? For most of us, like yeah, you're making $9 million, you're happy where you are. Why would you leave? But that's not foot football is very fickle that way.

And.

You got to be careful because like you said, you strike where the iron's hot, you get the special quarterback. Maybe the I, I would say this year for Vanderbilt they're like beating and playing against good team. It's not like they're just beating up on Mississippi State every week. I mean they, they were right there with Bama for most of that game, they just worked lsu, who they play this week? Missouri. I mean, if they beat Missouri, I mean, they might just be a playoff team. That'd be impressive.

[Jackson (Producer)]

Yeah, I, I think you. Mizzou, Vanderbilt, you're right. Whoever wins that game is going to be in a good position for the College Football Playoff.

[John Middlekauff]

But see that.

That's a good example. Is, Is Eli right? Like, he's another guy. How good is Missouri, right, relative to some of these other jobs? Like, if Lane turns it down and they offer him the job, like, you just.

[Jackson (Producer)]

You.

[John Middlekauff]

You can't turn down Florida from Missouri. I mean, that's, that's, that's crazy. And he's already proven like, the, the running back he got from Louisiana, Monroe or whatever, like, you're gonna be able to do that. Florida, no problem. And they already have. Like, the one thing in Florida is going to have is a pretty good roster in theory, I guess. These guys, I mean, who knows? I mean, 10 of them could quit over the next couple weeks, right? And just be like, I'm not risk getting injured. I'm going to go in the portal at season's end. So it's, It's a little more fickle now. I've seen a lot of people like the Andy Staples of the world, like, this roster is loaded. Well, yeah. Today. I mean, who these guys? I can't imagine the DMS for Florida starting defense, what it looks like, they're. They're phones. Like, I mean, the text they're getting from Kirby, from Lane, like these guys from Ryan Day, their staffs, I mean, they are.

How many guys at Florida would start.

All over the country? I mean, they, they have to be inundated with people hitting them up, making them offers starting December 1st or whatever.

[Jackson (Producer)]

You talk about Eli Drinkwitz, would he be kind of your. The question I have for you, what coaches are wild cards to either get fired or to leave for another job? Him being one. I know we talked about before, it's been a little quiet because they haven't been in the prime time. Like, Dabo is still interesting because fan base obviously still angry at him for a disappointing season. And maybe he's fed up with it and says, I want to go to Arkansas. Maybe Florida Pelch is in, or maybe Penn State. There's some other wild card coaches that you got your eye on that are like, okay, like, maybe they could go somewhere else.

[John Middlekauff]

See, the problem is, is I would.

Have said like three weeks ago that, like, Dabo should already be working to go to Florida. If they announced in a month that Dabo Sweeney was the head coach at Florida, that he just worked something out with Clemson to let him out of his contract. I feel like Florida fans would not be happy, which is crazy, but they would go, what, what the hell's been going on with this guy the last couple years? Years. So I, I think part of that.

And I, I wonder how much these.

Ads and these boosters worry about the reaction. Right. You could argue if you're Florida, the only guy you could hire to get like universal excitement would be Lane Kiffin. Because if you ended up with Dabo.

If you ended up Eli Drinkwitz is really impressive.

I, I don't know if like and, and could be a home run higher, but are people doing cartwheels down the street if that's announced, you know, James Franklin, what does Florida just announced tomorrow? We've hired James Franklin. I feel like the reaction on their Reddit boards would be like, what?

Even though they would die to be what James Franklin has done. That's a huge part of college football is there aren't many guys you can hire that aren't named like Nick Saban or Urban Meyer that aren't getting you universal excitement. And just because you get universal excitement, we saw with Lincoln Riley when they hired him from Oklahoma, usc, they couldn't have been happier.

And four years later they're like, what is going on? You know, I think Brian Kelly is a pretty good example.

When LSU hired him, people were excited, but it was like conditional excitement, kind of excited, kind of uneasy. But like, oh, this should work. He's pretty solid.

So they turned on him really quick. So I think the, the I, this is really hard. You know, Matt Rule, if, if Penn State hired him, are people going to be excited?

[Jackson (Producer)]

Can I throw a, a name out at you? Jeff Braum, Louisville. Would that bring any intrigue to a Florida or. I know it's not the sexiest name, but him beating Miami, what he's done with quarterbacks the last couple years, from Jack Plummer to Tyler Shuck to Miller Moss, they always win 10 games. Like, they're always relevant. They're upsetting opponents. Like, I think his record's like insane in terms of against a top 25 team that, but he's another, and he's another guy in that equation in that circle of the Brent Keys, of the Clark Lee's that are former alma mater guys. So would it be tough for him to leave? I have no idea. A lot of these guys that talk about their alma maters are like, Kenny Dillingham, that Kenny Dillingham says he's not going to leave. I believe him. But I also could see him go on and go to Penn State, which is the amount of money that he offers. And how would that, you know, change his coaching career? But what do you make of like Jeff Brahm?

[John Middlekauff]

I would say Jeff Braum historically is exactly the guy that a good program and a good AD would want to hire. He's 54 years old. He's been a head coach now since 2014 at Western Kentucky.

8 and 5, 12 and 2, 10 and 3. Then he goes to Purdue, which I think we'd all agree is not a good program.

His last year at Purdue he was 8 and 5. The year before that he was 9 and 4.

So his last two years he won 15 games. Then at Louisville, 10 wins, 9 wins.

And now 5 and 1. He is a former NFL quarterback.

Right.

He was undrafted guy in the 90s, played in the NFL off and on as like a backup third stringer for a long time.

He's a quarterback guy, he's an offensive guy.

Kind of just kicked Miami's ass, you know.

Wasn't Miami coming off a buy?

[Jackson (Producer)]

Yeah, yeah. After being Florida State. Yeah.

[John Middlekauff]

I mean dominated him. So I, I don't think, listen, he's not like it feels like lanes in his own little island of being the sexy hire. No one else feels sexy.

And that, that, that doesn't matter in the pros.

It does matter a little bit. Like when John schneider hired Mike McDonald, you know, it's kind of boring. He's not going to give you great sound bites. A lot of NFL coaches are not like Dan Campbell, they're pretty boring hires Brian Schottenheimer, people like, what's up with this idiot college? It's a lot about pizzazz. And you know, when Auburn hired Hugh Freeze, and I'm not saying that's the right thing, but it does kind of matter. And I, I think Jeff Braum, 20 years ago with his resume, I think we'd be talking about him like he's the number one coaching candidate not named Lane Kiffin on the market. But it does feel like he's kind of an afterthought. Like if I'm, if I'm Penn State, I think I'd be all over. I mean he's, he's worked at, he's worked in the conference, had success. He worked at a little school and now he's at Louisville. I think he'd be a no brainer.

[Jackson (Producer)]

I like Braun, but I think if.

[John Middlekauff]

I Said, hey, Penn State has hired Jeff Brahm. Do you think people would be happy at Penn State?

[Jackson (Producer)]

Probably not at first, but I think it because he's a kind of a sneaky, underrated guy in terms of the transfer portal.

[John Middlekauff]

Like I think Penn Station be all over him.

I mean, looking at his resume, I agree.

Maybe they are.

Maybe they end up hiring him. I, I'd hire Jeff Braun before I hired Matt Rule.

[Jackson (Producer)]

Yeah, yeah. Not he's not an outspoken guy like Matt Rule is. Matt Rules got a podcast and he's definitely got like the image of, to your point earlier, talking about Brian Kelly and having to do kind of those cheesy things. That's what Matt Rule will do and it works. But he also is the same guy that lost to Minnesota on a Friday night where that same Friday night Brahms beaten Miami. Number two, Miami. What you and me talked about as one of the most complete teams in college football and you look back at Miami and you got question marks. And now Miami and I'm even might not even make the ACC championship game because of that game with Louisville. Speaking of another guy that got fired, James Frank, we talked about him earlier. Do you think James Franklin will land a head coaching job in 2026? Do you think he'll aim at. We mentioned Florida, but realistically, Arkansas is available. Oklahoma State, Virginia Tech, ucla, Stanford. What does your crystal ball say about a guy like James Franklin?

[John Middlekauff]

I think I'd be hard pressed if I was him.

And he just said on game day that he wants to keep coaching. Like right now he's ready to win. He's like, we plan on winning national championships like James. Let's just pump down the hyperbolic talk a little bit. You're, you're good, you're going to get paid a lot of money, but you haven't sniffed a championship even in your own conference. I think, I guess he won the Big Ten. What back 2016.

I, I, I can't.

You know, you bring up Oklahoma State and Oak and Virginia Tech. If I'm James Franklin, there's no way. I wouldn't even fathom taking one of those jobs. I've seen his name in the mix for ucla. If you're James Frank, you're going to UCLA after coaching Penn State. Like to me it's got to be like Auburn would make some sense. Arkansas, if they financially back them, would make some sense. I think the SEC jobs, I mean, if I was him, I'd be all over Florida. You know, I think if you're Florida, you have your sight set on because I've heard some people say this. It's like, you know, James Franklin's a former wide receiver offensive guy and his offenses kind of suck now. He's ultimately like, not. He's more like a Sirianni. Like, it's not like he's calling the plays, but like the offense should be his baby.

He's actually recruited really well on defense.

You know, you watch on offense, you're.

Like, where are the wide receivers on this team? So it's his offense. He actually is probably more suited to.

Go to like Auburn or Arkansas and build that type team. He actually builds SEC level teams now. The SEC has changed a little bit these last couple years. Become. You watch Georgia, Ole Miss, that looked like a Big 12 game. But my guess would be Auburn, Arkansas, like those schools would be out now. I don't know if he'd take those jobs. He's getting paid so much money. But I, I couldn't if I was him. There's no way I could take the Oklahoma State. I think Oklahoma State job is one of the worst jobs in the country. Virginia Tech starting to feel that way as well. And when my guy, Tim Skipper beats Indiana on Saturday, they're just gonna have to offer him a contract.

[Jackson (Producer)]

I mean, that's what UCLA has to do, right? I mean, you can't, you can't back away from what you're seeing with Skipper and New Heisel together. Just pay them both, hey, here's your checks and just run with it with ucla. But to your point about James Franklin, what would a job like because he's been in the Big Ten, it seems like if, if he's a guy that wants to get back into winning, it would be the ACC and Florida State fans probably going to be upset about it. But a guy like James Franklin would come in and relatively would at least beat Stanford, would at least beat smu, would at least beat Pitt and all these teams that Mike Orville is leaving. So I guess to James Franklin's credit, if the SEC job wouldn't be available, a Florida State would be intriguing. But again, that's another fan base that's pretty upset right now. The last couple years, that program just looks dead.

[John Middlekauff]

Also, his like next contract is mitigated by the what they owe him. So like you could pay him $4 million and they got to cover the other five or whatever. So you could actually get James Franklin in theory, for a little cheaper, you can say, hey, we'll pay a little less. We'll let Penn State cover some of it. And we'll use some of that money to buy your coordinators, to buy your GM to use toward your roster. So it's actually a pretty big advantage for him. Like he's getting his money no matter what as a 9, 10 million dollar coach. But Penn State can foot some of that bill. It happens a ton in the NFL, right? I can get a coordinator for half price because another team's paying part of it. I, I have to pay him a threshold, right? I can't pay them like a hundred grand and they pay the other 9.5. But yeah, I mean, I, I think, I would guess Auburn, Arkansas. If you tell me Florida State became available, I, I could see him being all over that as well because they kind of like, you know, Bobby Bowden, they like a big recruiter.

And I, I don't know much about Mike Norvell.

Besides a couple years ago I thought he was good. Clearly it's just not going well. But I mean, they, you can't be losing these games. Like they lack talent. I mean, that's, at this point in time where a couple years ago they were stacked. And I think that's part of the transfer portal, you know, And I think James Franklin, like most of their star players like Tyler Warren, Abdul Carter, Saquon Barkley, Micah Parsons, like homegrown guys, the 49ers, safety Jair Brown, like, they, they.

Have a bunch of dudes all over.

The league that are just the two running backs, like homegrown. You could argue he needed to supplement a little more in the, with the wide receivers, but he definitely can recruit, like, identify. It's like Saban and Kirby's great strength and Ryan Day high school kids, because then if they like you, they'll stay for like three years.

[Jackson (Producer)]

I think he's got good relationships and good rapport with his players too. And I know people will kind of at the end of the day, like, we're all human. You look at a record against his AP top 25 or AP top 10, not great. But the players respect him. He'll go out and drive. I think you saw a video a couple years ago that he drove to Chop Robinson's draft party and then drove to another guy that was getting drafted. I think it was Olu Fashion News draft party in the same day. So I get it. Like his record stinks. But I think he could be adaptable at other programs. To your point.

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[John Middlekauff]

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[Colin Cowherd]

Hi, it's Colin from the Colin Coward Podcast. That would make sense that I would be the host of the Colin Coward Podcast. I mean, that's the way I see it. I've been around long enough to know quality when I see it, or in this case, when I taste it. Tito's Handmade Vodka. Good stuff. No flash, no gimmicks Smooth, clean tasting, made the right way. Okay. I like things that are built to last. A great team, a well run organization. Same goes for my vodka, Tito's. Made in Austin, Texas. Real care, attention to detail, distinct crisp taste. I was just telling my wife the other day Tito's is the one vodka it has a completely distinct taste. Been my go to for years so I like to keep it simple. Tito's soda, one lime, lot of ice, refreshing, easy summer, winter, spring. Totally versatile. Always works. Listen, baseball season's here. Your team's going to play 162 games. A perfect time to kick back with some Titos. It's what I pour. You should too. Distilled and bottled by 5th Generation Inc. Austin, Texas. 40% alcohol by volume. Savor responsibly.

[Jackson (Producer)]

I want to go back and talk way preseason. You made a bold prediction on this very show. The only show subscribe Road to 100K Jon Gruden, you said, would be a head coach in 2026. And now with a lot of jobs opening up, it looks like a guy that not a lot of people are talking about because a lot of people's focus is in on college guys that are currently coaching. But do you still feel as if Gruden will be a college head coach even more now than he did in the preseason? And then what are some jobs that you think would be perfect for Gruden?

[John Middlekauff]

Yeah, I don't, I don't feel as great about it.

Like I wouldn't, I wouldn't put money on it as of sitting today. And part of that is one thing Gruden's always been good about and this happened forever when he was with Monday Night Football is like you would just.

Hear and read stories about it.

It feels like it's been a little quiet now.

That could change.

He's outspoken. Like he wants to do it, but it doesn't. Like it's a two way street and forever NFL owners wanted them.

To me it's like do the ads want them?

And yeah, I mean I, I would say I, I'm not as strong.

I'm, I'm definitely, I feel like Mike.

McCarthy is more likely to be the coach at like Wisconsin than Gruden is to be the coach at Arkansas. Maybe I'm wrong.

[Jackson (Producer)]

It'd be interesting to a guy like that that's never played in and that's never coached in college. How would he adapt to the portal? How would he. Has John Gruden ever been on a home visit in high school? Like those little things to Me where I would love to see Gruden, Arkansas. I think he'd bring a lot of tremendous. You bring a lot of vibes. Walmart, Tyson, they've got a lot of nil boosters behind him. But in terms of like the logistics side and college football being an everlasting cycle, I wonder how he would adapt to the college football space.

[John Middlekauff]

You don't have to go in as many homes anymore. That's part of it. But you know, I don't think Deion Sanders ever been in a home. I actually think he'd be fine doing that. I think it'd be a natural skill.

[Jackson (Producer)]

Form to just got such a great personality.

[John Middlekauff]

Yeah, I mean I, I that to me, I wonder if that's a little overrated. Where it used to matter more with the money aspect of just like sitting down with the grandparents talking about life. I still do believe that matters though. You know, I think Kirby Smart's doing it. Ryan Day's doing it. You don't have to do as many.

Guys, but I do think when you.

Hone in on your top five to ten high school kids a year and you're probably even doing it now way before.

Right.

You know, you're on these guys now, sophomore, junior year. But you're spending a lot of time building a relationship and I think that matters. And that's where I think a big advantage for like Kirby Smart's been in college football for a long time. Sark's been in college football for a long time. Lane's been in college football for a long time. And that would be if I was an ad. Like, does Gruden just really want to coach? Because he just loves football, which I get it.

But like one thing you're seeing with.

Belichick is this industry is way different than the pros.

Right.

Developing a relationship with a 16 year old kid kind of sucks. I mean, does, does anyone really want to do it?

But it's kind of what you got to do.

Like, does Kirby Smart love making the.

Recruiting calls five days, five days a.

Week and half the Fridays of the year going to high school football games?

Hey, probably be rather at home with.

His wife, having a beer with his kids.

But like that's part of the reason.

You make all this money is to do that. And it's like any job that any of us have, there are things that come along with it that you don't.

Love that you just kind of have to do.

And that's one area in college football where you just wonder like, like how much better would Dion be? And he's got like obviously health issues.

But if he was, just think how good Dion would be sitting at the.

Table having dinner with people. I mean, he would, he would probably land way more recruits.

I mean, that's like his great strength.

It was his personality. But in fairness to him, he's like, I don't really want to fly to Texas tonight.

Right.

[Jackson (Producer)]

Okay.

[John Middlekauff]

I don't even blame him.

But yeah, it's, it's probably, I, I just think like the top guys. You think Dan Lanning is not doing that? It's like, you know, he does. There are probably nights like on his bye week, you think he wants to fly down to LA and have dinner with three of his top recruits? Like, yeah, he'd probably rather just hang.

Out with his family.

We all would.

[Jackson (Producer)]

Yeah. Him, Marcus Freeman, Kenny Dillingham. Those are kind of some guys that are killing the recruiting game, killing the in house visits. But last question for you. We pivot off of call or coaches, I should say the Heisman Watch. Everyone loves the Heisman Trophy. We're approaching week nine right now. Any guys sit out to you? I know last year it was kind of more of a non quarterback award because some of the quarterbacks were kind of iffy. This year our expectations were Arch Manning, Garrett Nussmeier, Club, Nick Aller, those guys out of the picture. But some of the top guys that we've seen in college football have been pretty impressive. And I think the award's still wide open. I mean, I'm looking at the odds right now. Mendoza and Ty Simpson, Even Julian saying at +400, which is interesting because it's Ohio State, I get it. But you're. They're throwing 42 times. You have an 80% completion percentage against Wisconsin. I think a lot of quarterbacks are going to do that against a poor team. But who in your eyes, you know, I mean, early Heisman talk, not saying that you got to give a vote, but who's been kind of impressive to you in college football that deserves the award? Well, I think you were kind of overrated.

[John Middlekauff]

I mean, yeah, I think it used to mean more. I think it used to mean more. But I would say this. If Vanderbilt makes the playoffs or Indiana is just in the conference championship game, I have a hard time not giving it to one of those two guys. Like, nothing against Ty Simpson. He looks unreal. Most quarterbacks over the course of the last 15 years have looked pretty sweet. Nothing against saying he's kicking ass and that team's awesome. Like most people look pretty good at Ohio State. What these guys are doing at Indiana and Vanderbilt is pretty incredible. Specifically Pavia, like, because now we have two straight years. Rourke was, I mean he was, Turns out he had torn ACL by the end of the year. But he was good. Like their offense was good, right? He was throwing those back. Like Signetti is a good offensive coach, but it does feel like they've gone up a level and clearly they, Mendoza is a better player. I mean he's like a high end draft pick and he's, I had a buddy who's a scout at the game against Oregon. He's like, listen, that interception was bad, but he bounced right back. That was like really impressive in that environment, in that place. And you watch Pavia just making play.

After play because every once in a while like LSU would kind of get back in the game like, hey, if they can just get a stop like lsu.

And then he would just pull something out of his. Honestly, it was Johnny Manziel. It was, it's the closest thing to see we've seen the Johnny Mick because it's like, what is he doing? I, I would, to me, he would.

Get, if we were voting today, I.

Would vote for Diego Pavia now, you know, you get a couple more games, you lose, don't play well. He does that again against Missouri. I, I, I think he's gonna win. I mean if, if he just keeps playing like he's been playing because even against Alabama I thought he was good.

Now again, these defenses, this isn't like.

2012 Nick Saban defense on Alabama, but.

That'S kind of college football.

I mean Georgia and Ole Miss was an eye opening experience. I think there was like one punt for 90 of the game. I just think defense is, Ohio State plays it. But most of these teams, Texas, most teams are not that good on defense. So it's like I don't really, I don't have a problem with, you know, bigger stats now and stuff. It doesn't bother me as much, you know, so it's just part of the football because forever it was like if you throw a bunch of touchdowns, like, oh, you're playing the Big 12, you're a Texas Tech or Oklahoma. Well, I'm watching this D2 guy go.

Up against Georgia and slice and dice.

Them till the last five minutes of the game.

So you just.

Great defenses don't really exist. I, the offensive expectations are higher and what Pavia is doing in the SEC is just, he's the most fun player in the league in the country, right? Now I would say for Court.

[Jackson (Producer)]

Yeah, I agree. And people will hate his theatrics or hate his cockiness. I love it. I think it brings added storylines to the sport. You mentioned Johnny Menzel. He's giving kind of that mentor towards him, whether it's good or bad.

[John Middlekauff]

A little bull. I, I pivot the high.

[Jackson (Producer)]

The Heisman, the Heisman pose in the end zone or like doing the money stuff that, that Pavia does. I, I don't know if I'm a, a huge fan of that. I guess too.

[John Middlekauff]

He, I, I saw him.

They, they did that m On college game day and he was, he, he's, I didn't think he was as douchey as the way people are kind of making fun of him. I thought he was cool. He was like giving Saban credit.

And remember last year Saban talked a.

Bunch of about them. I, I like, what's he gonna say to Nick here? Like, hey, Nick, remember what you said about. I, I was expecting him to say that. And he's like, he's basically like Mr. Nick Saban. It's great to finally meet the goat or something.

[Jackson (Producer)]

Well, to his credit, he's had a chip on his shoulder his whole career. I mean, he started at New Mexico Juco, then he was at New Mexico State and now he was here. But to your point about Vanderbilt, they've got, let me look at their schedule real quick. They got Mizzou this week at Texas against Arch Manning. You know, that's gonna be a primetime game versus Auburn at Tennessee. I think they're going to be a playoff team. I think if they go past Mizzou, they're going to have a. I mean, at Texas. Texas does not look like the team you talk about. Fugazi is probably the Fugazi team of college football is Texas. You don't know what the hell.

[John Middlekauff]

When do they play them, that program?

[Jackson (Producer)]

They play them week 10. So next week they are good on D. A primetime game. That is true. They are good on D. They do have good defense.

[John Middlekauff]

To me, if, if he leads them to a win and they win, you know, score 20 plus points against them and he makes some plays, I think he would be in the driver's seat assuming he wins this week and that game's going to be in Texas because I remember last year was in Vanderbilt. It was close, but people didn't think Vanderbilt was that good. Like Vanderbilt wins this week. I mean, would they, I don't know if they'd be favored in that game, but the line would be small. They would not be some huge underdog at all. I mean, it might be. I think a lot of people would take Vanderbilt if they were getting like three or four points, that's for sure in that game. Texas looks terrible. I mean, offensively they're bad. Their old line's bad. Their defense is good though. Yeah, that would be a great matchup. Just their defense against Pavia and the Vanderbilt offense because a lot of his.

Stuff is a little Johnny Manziel running around, you know. But part of when you run around a little bit, it actually is harder on like a high level, like buttoned.

Up defense because they're like in their lane, in their gap, not screwing up.

That's always screw up. Nick Saban, right? Guys that ran around because he's like, we're doing everything perfect and then he has three 360s, he runs sideline to sideline and then he throws this bomb. It took out Nick Saban for years, the random mobile quarterback, because like being fundamentally sound and gap integrity, it doesn't mean anything. Where it's like when they play Leonard.

Fournette, it's like we're just running over the B gap. Nick Saban's like, good luck.

[Jackson (Producer)]

Yeah, it's like scrambled draw. Everything just out the window. People are going up and down the sideline and they have good receiver chemistry, which is.

[John Middlekauff]

And Pavia is just one big scramble drill. That's his whole offense, you know, not his whole offense. He's better than that.

But I'm saying, like, it's a huge part of his game.

[Jackson (Producer)]

And I think people are going to probably in the comments say, well, Mendoza's favorite, he should win the award. I also think part of the award too is you got to be in primetime moments. You got to be up against great competition. Penn State stinks because that would have been a good game. I'm sure big Newton kickoff would have been there. Maybe they still will be there at Penn State, Indiana. I'm sure they go back and forth between there and Ohio State. They're like Ohio State's home TV station, it seems like. But I think, I think Ty Simpson would be the only other guy that can compete with Pavia just because of what he's done with Alabama. He's been the answer. He was the question heading into this year for an Alabama team that was loaded. We knew the receivers are going to come back, hang on to born year two, kind of under that, you know, spotlight that they had. But the loss with Florida State wasn't his fault. And he just continues to get better week after week. Looking at their schedule, they have lsu, they have Oklahoma at Auburn, I mean the Iron bowl, who knows what could happen for that game. But if you're talking about a Heisman guy, he would be the one that would contend for Pavia for me just because he came out of nowhere. I mean this guy seven start, about to be his ninth start, I think this weekend. It's crazy.

[John Middlekauff]

I. I do think, you know, sometimes like who is this guy we did it with Mac Jones. Like, well, he is on Bama's roster. So like he is on Ohio State's roster or Texas.

When you're at the top program, like you're pretty good.

[Jackson (Producer)]

How did he not start last year over Milroe? I mean, I mean the evolution and developing and stuff. I get that maybe he didn't have the confidence he did last year.

[John Middlekauff]

I mean Milro had just been the starter on a playoff team. It was a weird playoff team, but it was a playoff team. I don't know. The money probably paying him a lot. I mean Milro did just get drafted in the third round. I mean he's a pretty big physical freak. Completion percentage can be a little hit or miss, but can't throw a slant.

[Jackson (Producer)]

To save his life.

[John Middlekauff]

He can run, he can throw bombs.

I mean that pass against Auburn was.

Pretty, pretty legendary moment.

[Jackson (Producer)]

Now Isaiah Bond's playing for the Browns. He's his receiver three now. Wow. Crazy how that, crazy how that came to be. You went undrafted.

[John Middlekauff]

I forgot about that. Well, I mean part of the reason is because the girl said that he did that and then he claimed he didn't and then he got off. Slash. Didn't happen because what round would he got drafted? Like the second he had the disappointing year at Texas.

So maybe I'm saying.

But he, he ran well, he did. You know, he's physically a freak. Yeah, I mean the Browns, again, some of these guys are completely innocent Judkins Bond.

A lot of weird stuff though happens.

To their guys, you know. So again, I'm, I'm. I'm not saying they're guilty by any means. The 1D tackle hall did, you know, put a gun to his fiance and miss some games last year. So again, this is.

[Jackson (Producer)]

Yikes.

[John Middlekauff]

They the standard for their character be a little hit or miss.

See, that's why we can say they're open minded. They.

They give people the benefit of doubt. I don't know.

[Jackson (Producer)]

So I'm trying, I'm trying to wait for a girl right now. I'm trying to wait. I don't want to get in a situation like that where the volume are three announce calling and say he said, she said type of situation. We don't want the Browns over here at three and out.

[John Middlekauff]

No, we're pretty open minded too though. I mean we, we don't, we don't rush the judgment here. No, we let the, we let the process play out. I'm not, I'm not the court system, the judicial system. So it's like I do put it on you to make good decisions though, with, with ladies, I gotta ask, I.

[Jackson (Producer)]

Gotta ask for some advice. But last question for you before we wrap this up. I gotta ask a personal question. How's the baby, man? How are you feeling? How are you locked into a football season and she's due in February, right?

[John Middlekauff]

January. January.

[Jackson (Producer)]

How are you processing that? Are you reading dad books? Are you listening to podcasts? Like how does that work? As someone that's about to be a.

[John Middlekauff]

New dad, you realize the disconnect. They have this human growing in them. As you know, this kid's starting to kick and moving non stop and you're.

Just sitting here living your life completely.

Normal, yet they, that thing couldn't exist without you.

Yet during the nine months, you don't.

Bring that much to the table. And from what I've heard, I don't think once it's, once it comes out, you don't bring that much to the table either early on. So it's, it's kind of a weird experience that way. She is very connected because again, this thing is growing in her stomach, kicking, moving, you know, and I just live like I lived five years ago, you know, football's on. Talk about it, you know, read an ad, work on the next topic we're.

Going to talk about.

What are we going to talk about next Wednesday? Tuesday Stucky. What were my picks yet? Her life has dramatically changed. So yeah, I mean I, I. Not much reading. Just kind of keeping my fingers crossed. We signed up for some CPR classes. One thing I'm big on is I would say the first several months I would not feel comfortable being alone. Just someone's life is in my hands to, you know, even after the CPR class, which I think, I don't know if it's like legally mandatory, but most people take it, I don't know because if something weird happens, but you just realize this person's life is, you know, if you're ever just, if, if she leaves, even if the baby's like six months, like it's something bad happens, it's on me to figure it out. Like you got to turn into like an EMT. Meet SEAL Team 6. I mean, it's just a, feels a lot of pressure, so I, it's more heavy on her right now. And then, you know, it probably falls into my world once the baby is out and about, but it's the connection she has with, with the young man is, is just, it's a powerful thing. I mean, it's just, she just has this thing in her, you know, it's crazy.

[Jackson (Producer)]

That's so nuts. I think the weird part too, I mean, obviously I got a long ways. Hopefully, God willing, I'm not having a baby soon, but I always wonder when they cry and you can identify what.

[John Middlekauff]

Type of cry the baby has.

[Jackson (Producer)]

Crying for food, crying for mom, crying for. Obviously you're gonna figure that out, hopefully sooner than later.

[John Middlekauff]

But yeah, I mean, we'll try, we'll try. That's, I, I need my sleep. That's what we're already kind of looking at that it's, you know, you gotta help but part of being a podcaster, right? It's one of those things where I need my, my head open, my energy, my creative juices. So it's, we're going to have to figure out the, the sleep schedule. I'm keeping my fingers crossed. Hopefully just a good sleeper, you know, nice eight, ten hours at night and we all just get well rested and we have a smile on our face. Though I've heard that's not really the way it works. So I don't know, we'll see, we'll just, we're taking this journey and full speed ahead and yeah, hopefully he's, I don't know, successful young man and hopefully.

[Jackson (Producer)]

The NFL gets rid of those Monday night double headers. That'll help you out too with your sleep schedule.

[John Middlekauff]

He won't like that crap, you know, that's ridiculous. What are we doing 10 o' clock at night?

[Jackson (Producer)]

It's crazy.

[John Middlekauff]

I feel, I always thought living on the east coast is kind of crazy, but I, I, I don't know how. Robert saw has seven, eight kids. How's that even possible?

[Jackson (Producer)]

Like how Phil 17? Yeah, well, he's coaching. You're right. Yeah, he's coaching in the NFL.

[John Middlekauff]

It just, it just seems pretty.

Just.

Yes, it's crazy. I don't know how, I don't know how people do it.

[Jackson (Producer)]

Who knows, maybe when, maybe when he pops out, you'll want another one. Maybe it's just kind of an addiction to making more life, having more kids. Having more baby. Like when you have a dog, you get another dog and you get a third dog or you want a dog after that dog passes. Could happen.

[John Middlekauff]

It definitely could.

[Jackson (Producer)]

Definitely could.

[John Middlekauff]

I, you know things.

I think two is like the new five.

Because when I was a kid a.

Lot of people had like four or five kids. Not, maybe not a lot, but you just knew a lot of people. Three, three kids or four kids? I would say most people, most of my friends, I'm 40, my brother's 35. Most people like in my friend group, his friend group that have children. It does feel like it's pretty shocking when you meet someone with three children. It's not because people don't like their kids or it's just obviously really expensive. Well also my son has more clothes. He doesn't even exist yet in terms of like the real world still inside than I probably had through my first five years of life already at the house. That's great. These kids are just, they're styling and profile. I see some pictures of me from like 1988. I mean every human being I knew is we all just kind of wore the same clothes. We had a couple tank tops, T shirt and a jacket. You know, one pair of shoes. Even like through high school I didn't even looking back, I didn't feel like I had that many clothes. A couple colored shirts, couple like football, you know, Blue devil football shirts. Maybe like a San Francisco Giant shirt.

I mean my closet was not very big. I mean I see some of these little kids closets.

I'm not including my son.

It's insane how many clothes they have. Maybe it's just Instagram tick tock.

I don't know. It's wild.

[Jackson (Producer)]

And they're not doing much. They're just laying down.

[John Middlekauff]

Yeah, exactly.

[Jackson (Producer)]

And that's it. It's not like they're going on a walk or anything. Like they're just doing nothing with mom.

[John Middlekauff]

Can'T even walk for like first year plus.

[Jackson (Producer)]

That's amazing. I can't wait.

[John Middlekauff]

Okay, Jackson, good talking some college football with you. Have a great day and I'll see you soon.

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[John Middlekauff]

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[Jackson (Producer)]

And official rules, visit toyotasgamedaygiveaways.com what's up everybody?

[John Middlekauff]

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[Annabe Sofa Ad Voice]

On the latest episode of Next Question with Me, Katie Couric, I sat down with Bernie Sanders. We've talked many times over the years, and today he even throws a few questions my way.

[John Middlekauff]

All right, are you ready for another question? Go ahead, hit me, Bernie.

[Annabe Sofa Ad Voice]

We talk about the billionaire class, the cost of living, and of course, the government shutdown. Listen to Next Question with me, Katie Couric on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

[John Middlekauff]

This is an iHeart podcast.