← The Herd with Colin Cowherd
The Herd with Colin Cowherd
3 & Out - National Championship Preview, Transfer Portal, Importance of GM's in College Football
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- [00:00]
John Middlekauff
This is an iHeart podcast.
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Josh Pate
Guaranteed Human.
- [00:05]
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John Middlekauff
What is going on everybody? John Middlecoff the Renault podcast brought to you by my friends at Zone Pouches Today we will have on Josh Pate who just reported the other day he ESPN is going to build a show around the guy college football up and coming star. Known him now for a couple years and we recorded this earlier in the week because I'm probably currently at the at the hospital just grinding along as a father. No big deal. And we talked a lot of college football had him on for a while. Obviously you can see it if you go subscribe to the podcast on Netflix. All of our videos are now on Netflix. Go check that out. And yesterday we had Stuckey breaking down the games diving deep into the point spreads and all the different angles as well as the national championship game have on Pate which talking transfer portal the craziness signetti little Bit of everything. College football guy. Big, big fan of my bald brother Josh. So that, that will be the game plan this weekend. I don't think we will have reaction on Saturday night. It's just I'll probably still be at the hospital. So Sunday it should be go as planned. But again, you never know. It's a little out of my hands. I'm recording this part on Wednesday, so we'll just, we'll play her by ear. Let's just say that. And hopefully everyone had a. Is going to have a good weekend and enjoy the games and we will talk soon. But if you listen on Collins feed, make sure you subscribe. Do the 3Now podcast, Apple Spotify, you guys know the drill. And let's just dive into Josh, okay? Very, very excited. I would say he'd be excited to come on Netflix, but the reality is every time I go to the gym in the morning, it had to be a couple weeks ago, I look up, there's Stephen A. Smith, Cameron Newton and Josh Pate arguing about college football. And I thought, my bald brother here. I mean, it has to be a little bit of a pinch me moment. Like it's pretty cool. You know, I'm just arguing with, with Cam Newton about college football. Takes this guy's had a hell of a year from getting married to all over the place with college football. Josh, how you doing, man?
- [03:59]
Josh Pate
I'm doing good. You're talking about me being the one that's had a busy year. You're the one the other day where I'm looking at breaking news and I'm going to. Luckily I already subscribed to Netflix and you know, they've, they've been showing like the advertisements for the new shows. They're about to pop up. Am I about to see you on one of those teaser screens? Are we going to have one of those sexy middle cough pictures with a, like an animated mic and some lightning bolts? Is it already happening and I haven't seen it yet? What's the deal?
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John Middlekauff
Yeah, they've told me to get on the paint the gym plan and hit and pump that iron. So I, I get, maybe, hopefully in the next month we can get like a shirtless, you know, glistening photo or something. All of a sudden you're going to see like, you know, some famous actor and then Midkopf pops up. You're gonna be like, what is going on here?
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Josh Pate
The secret, by the way, is to structure your day in such a way where first thing in the morning you're working and people say, look at him. Grinding. Late at night you're working and people are saying, look at him grinding. What they don't know is the middle of your day is wide open. That's when you go to the gym.
- [04:59]
John Middlekauff
I, I like you. You know, grew up loving sports talk radio. Obviously, you know, listen to Colin and stuff. So, you know, Greenberg, Mike and Mike living on the west coast, it was a little different that they sometimes, you know, they start so early. But when I lived in Philly and going on with him, I would imagine, I mean it's Mike's, I mean an all time driver of a show. But the Stephen A. Experience and first take, can you just explain that to us? What, what that's like? I mean, obviously you're just talking football so it comes natural. But is there a, is there a different mindset going into the, to the belly of the beast, knowing, okay, I got, I gotta, got some takes here.
- [05:34]
Josh Pate
Yeah, I love it. So here's the way that worked. I was in New York few weeks ago doing Get Up. The get up studio is right next to First Take. There's literally a wall separating the two and it was going into the playoffs. So we had a full loaded college football show, which in and of itself is so refreshing that I mean they're letting you come into espn, those big morning shows and you're just loading it with college football. Love that. Love being a part of it. So towards the end of the show they, they came over, the producers came over and said, can you come do the first 20 minutes of first take? So we're on a tight travel schedule, had to work that out. I go over there and I walk in and Ryan Clark's in there. Orlovsky came over there with me because he had been doing the previous show. Stephen A's in there and Shay Cornette's in there. And on Get Up, I mean you've got a pretty established rundown. You sat in a production meeting. This is a lot more on the fly. And I said, is there anything specifically you're looking to do? They said, just rip we're just going to go for 20 minutes, don't worry. Like we'll drive it. Let's just go. John. It was the most, it was the Most like my YouTube show or like a talk radio format that you could possibly imagine being on live tv. And we, I think we probably blew through a break if truth were told. And we just went about college football and it was awesome. Now I will say this, there was so little time. You didn't really have time to think about what you're doing. You're just, you walk right in the studio, they mic you up. 2 minutes to air, 1 minute to air, 3, 35, 4, 3, 2, 1. We're live. Play the bumper, play the animations, do the teases, and we're on. But it's so natural because you're not being asked to talk about something that you're unfamiliar with, which is sort of the blessing. Like I think you would probably agree with this. It's the blessing of the modern digital media age. Sort of the on demand digital media age. Folks like me, folks like you, folks like even Colin. Nowadays you can choose which lanes you want to live in. You don't have to be a generalist if you don't want to be a generalist. Now those shows cover everything. But when you can go in there and just get a 20 minute block of time and, and Stephen A, I mean, he's sitting there, that's the biggest name in sports media and he defers to you. And Ryan Clark sits there and kind of defers to you and gives you plenty of room to operate. It's awesome. I love it. And that's a very, very professional operation, especially from like a production standpoint. And I say that people may think, oh, that's duh, yeah, they're pros. I don't mean that. I mean, you know, you would know this. A lot of people listening don't know this. There's a glaring difference when you first get into our business of the kinds of people you work with in production, because you assume they're all pros and they're not. When you're around professionals, it makes your job so easy. It makes your job so easy. From a talent standpoint, if you want to call yourselves that, when you got big time professionals behind the scenes producing.
- [08:21]
John Middlekauff
You, you know the number one question I get, if I'm just out and about and someone comes up, hey, love the show, start talking football, obviously. I mean, it's a great conversation starter for me. I'm sure for you in America, you go anywhere someone wants to talk, they always ask, what's Colin like? What's Colin like? And obviously, you know, I sing his praises. I mean, he's been incredible to me and he's as down to earth and cool. I would say the same thing for Stephen A. Smith. I have way more dealings with Colin and been around him way more.
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Unidentified Guest/Co-host
But I've met Stephen a, a couple times.
- [08:48]
John Middlekauff
One time he had to do a radio show when I was doing stuff in the Bay Area. And he just like bs, he was all done. He couldn't have been any cooler. Like, he's actually, I. I think, you know, the Persona and stuff on television and I haven't been around him in a long time, but I remember thinking he was a big deal at the time. Like this guy was just down to earth. We were like BSing about Steph Curry or whatever. But I think a lot of these guys, the perception sometimes on online takes on something different than it actually is. And that's just kind of the nature of the beast that we're in now.
- [09:17]
Josh Pate
Yeah. The other thing that you learn back in the day when you had like three or four options, you were just getting fed what you were getting fed. Take it or leave it. Like it or not, in our world, I can't stress enough how much a post on demand world we live in where if you can see through someone, they're dead in the water from, from a performance or on air standpoint, they're not going to last because there are too many you can't see through. Like Colin Cowherd for a long time, you can't see through him because who he is on air is who he is off air. I used to get tricked early in the days of listening to Colin and into thinking he's just being contrarian for the sake of being contrarian. This was pre Hot Take existing as a phrase. I thought he was doing that when I very first listened to him. This is when he first got to ESPN radio. I came to learn over time, no, he's not doing that. He just has a different viewpoint on the world which overlaps with his viewpoint on sports. And because of that, him speaking his mind is going to sound different than most of the crowd does. Well, then you fast forward 25 years. 20 years, or however long it's been since then. I think the same thing about Stephen A. Smith. Now that I've been blessed enough to work with him and like talk with him on record, talk with him off record.
- [10:26]
John Middlekauff
It.
- [10:27]
Josh Pate
Yes, there's a lot of theatrical element to it. Yes, it's very flamboyant. Yes, it's very in your face. It's loud sometimes it's brash. But it's who he is off camera too. So you don't see through it. It's not fake. And so at that point, I feel the same way about myself. Although I'm nothing like him or nothing like Colin. Just being yourself on air is the ticket.
- [10:51]
John Middlekauff
You know, college football is obviously something that's near and dear to Your heart, you love a lot. I do think this transactional nature of the sport over the last three or four years has helped it out from a popularity standpoint. More people have opinions, more people are paying attention, even if it has kind of jumped the shark and it's all over the place. And you know, you're talking to these coaches and I would imagine over, you know, as your show has just blown up, the amount of general managers and stuff that you know now, which obviously, I mean they're the guys running point on a lot of this stuff. I mean these college. When I became a recruiting GA in 2008, in 2008 at Fresno State, there was not a personnel guy in the country. It kind of started in like 09 or 10 with Manowitz, with Bama, and then it kind of took off from there. And obviously as the Saban disciples went now it's, I mean there are personnel departments like the NFL and you said last time I had you on keep an eye that this role is going to be completely different than what it is now. And there are going to be a lot of guys like in the NFL that when the coach leaves, they run point on the, on the coaching. We're not quite there yet, but it's clear over the next five years it is going to rapidly change because of the power of, I mean Texas is going to have a $40 million roster. I mean these general managers, their importance, I mean it's just, you could argue it's even more important than the NFL because of the wild, wild west nature of landing a player.
- [12:17]
Josh Pate
Now it's funny you mentioned Ed because I was at the Peach bowl last week. First person I see on the field is Ed Manowitz. He works at CAA now. He represents Pete Golding among the other other guys. So he was kind of at both games. First words out of his mouth. Can you believe how this thing operates now? And so that's Ed talking, who was once at the forefront of that picture. I say a generation ago, it's like 10 or 15 years ago. So think about what you said.
- [12:43]
John Middlekauff
I mean, he still is right. He's Jimmy's right hand man now, so. Right.
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Josh Pate
Just on a different frontier. Yeah. So think about what you said because you're right, we talked about that last time and I remember, I remember looking at some of the comments and the feedback was, oh, you're crazy if you think that athletic directors are ever going to let general managers handle coaching hires. No, it's the exact opposite. Athletic directors are relieved beyond belief when they can hire a general manager and let the general manager hire a head coach. Like, what do you think is more intimidating and daunting? An AD trying to hire an actual football coach or an AD hiring essentially a general to then build the army, and then the general answers to him like, of course, the further removed a lot of these ads can get from meat and potatoes football decisions, the better because they're also hiring a basketball coach, they're hiring baseball. They're an athletic director, not a football director. That's the first thing. The second thing is a lot of guys and women who are athletic directors are ads because they happen to be the best fundraiser around. That's not a bad thing. I don't say that pejoratively. I'm saying it to list their qualifications.
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John Middlekauff
And.
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Josh Pate
And they are many, but one of them is normally not, ooh, football's in my wheelhouse. So it is. It's. It's a welcome change to these people to be able to hire a general manager. And because that's the climate, then I just think it's been a matter of time. It's not an if, but a win. You're going to see head coaches get fired by a general manager with the endorsement of the ad, of course, and then the GM sticks around and he fills the building over and over again.
- [14:17]
John Middlekauff
I want to read you a tweet from Kevin Clark, and he said, I'm on the radio with Mike Tannenbaum, and he just told me an amazing story. He was talking To a Power 4 head coach this week who got a list from an agent of all his free agents. One of the players was on his team. He hasn't told anyone on the staff that he wants to leave or even hinted at unhappiness. How often are coaches that you talk to finding out about players that they thought, like, great relationship, we're paying this guy a lot of money. That. Is it the agent. I mean, are a lot of these guys, you know, it's not the player's idea. You know, they're kind of doing the fake portal where they're not in the portal, but they're definitely sniffing around. What's it. What's it like out there on the streets? And I know you. This is not your favorite topic, but it obviously, I mean, is probably the biggest topic in college football.
- [15:12]
Josh Pate
Yeah, it's not a favorite topic of mine because of the answer to the question you just asked. The answer is everybody's dealing with that. It's. It's frequent. It's commonplace. I would My answer, I guess is better put this way. I would be shocked if a coach told me they didn't deal with any of that in a cycle. Everybody's dealing with it. And just imagine that now. Just imagine. I know no one like Kirby Smart has a really famous saying, you can't cry from the yacht. No one feels sorry for these guys. They're making 10 plus million dollars a year in some cases. I get all that. Let's pretend they're making 10 billion a year. My point in principle still remains, and that is you're asking guys to build a football program and win. And Kurt Signetti is a glaring example of how vital it is to have consistency, continuity, synergy, you know, a team. In other words, ideally, guys that have played together multiple years, you're asking them to do that while at the same time dealing with annual free agency. And so you can't go down this road, John. Like as soon as you turn down the road, the argument becomes discombobulated and dishonest in many cases because people just start shouting from 50,000ft and it's like, can we just drill down on one issue at a time and then another issue and then another issue. But as soon as you turn down the road of even broaching how insane the current climate is, you got one side that yells, you know, well what are you against players being paid? It's like no one ever said that, nor am I against pros in the NFL being paid. I just think that I am pro compensation and really pro structure and governance and guidelines and an understanding day to day what the rules are. So then the follow up question from the other side of the aisle is, okay, well how are you going to enforce that? There's no answer to that right now. I've even gone back and forth, like me personally, I've gone back and forth on what I think the best course of action is because at my core, like I'm a traditionalist sort of guy in college football. I, I'm not totally rigid and anti change, but I don't think all change is good. I think a lot of the changes that have happened in college football, even if they've temporarily led to spikes in, in viewership like you talked about, could be to the long term detriment. And I think my biggest problem, we could talk about playoff expansion conversation just as much as we can talk about portal governance or lack thereof and lack of a plan right now. It just feels like a lot of the folks who are in decision making positions in college athletics treat college Football like a rental car. You've driven one, I've driven one. You know good and well you take care of a rental car far differently than you take care of your family car because you know the rental is going to be dropped off in 72 hours. It doesn't matter what shape it's in two years from now for you, it's not your problem. I feel like a lot of people treat college athletics the same way right now. Let me get what I can out of it. It's not my problem. What it looks like five years down the road and then on the other side, if you're talking about representation, Steve Sarkeesian went off on this the other day and he was right about it. And Texas is a beneficiary of the current model, and he was still right about it. And he's talking about what's been a problem for a while, and that is what does it take to be an agent in college football? And the answer is putting agent in your Twitter bio. That's all it takes. There's no accreditation. Like, there's no. There's no checks and balances. There's no certification that you have to get. There are no standardized compensation tables or anything like that. And as a result, you've got horrific decisions being made many times at the behest of a player putting their faith in an agent. And I'm using air quotes there in case you're not watching the video version. And it's. Look, aside from just how bad it is for the sport long term, it's really sad for players because those players are like, they get labeled as selfish. They're just making the best decisions they know how to make. Sometimes they got very little guidance. They got very little. They don't have a North Star in many cases in their lives. And they got adults giving them horrible advice. They don't know any better in many cases.
- [19:15]
John Middlekauff
Well, we're dudes. 18, 19, 20. You don't even need any money in your bank account to make dumb decisions. I can't even imagine what it's like. I mean, one issue I think college football has and the. Is it Damon Williams, the quarterback at Washington, you know, and I think Lucas, the kid that got kicked out for targeting for Miami is. He's part of the Wisconsin transfer that became a big deal, right? Getting sued or whatever is. Let's just take the Big Ten in the sec, which are the money drivers in terms of the conference for the sport. Like if Lane had pulled off stealing the kid from Washington, the quarterback. I like LSU's, you know, administration wouldn't care. The SEC wouldn't care. But you know, in the NFL, the Jags wouldn't do that to the 49ers, who wouldn't do that to the Giants because they're all in business together. They're all under the same umbrella, they.
- [20:05]
Unidentified Guest/Co-host
All follow the same rules, and if.
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John Middlekauff
You break them, you typically get hammered. So everyone's like kind of pulling in the same direction. Even though on the field you're competing and trying to beat each other off the field you're all hand in hand trying to get rich. That's not really the case. Right? The sec, I mean, big picture in the playoffs and stuff, they all benefit. But really the SEC is focused on the sec. The Big Tens focus on the Big Ten. And as long as you have kind of that, I would say, disconnect, like, who cares? It's one thing the coaches try to screw each other, whatever. But the administrations and the presidents and the commissioners, I don't think they really care if that situation would have played out. Because like your boys with McGuire, right, at Texas Tech, the quarterback they just signed, they had to give, or is this true, Cincinnati, a million dollars.
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Josh Pate
Yes, they did.
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John Middlekauff
So I, you know that like, you know, that's a pretty big deal if you can enforce these things. But that's the most above board thing I've ever heard of in the transfer portal. Right. At least you're following the contract.
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Josh Pate
I've been a proponent. I don't know how you set this up. I'm not a lawyer. I've been a proponent of especially P4 schools taking G5 or G5 taking FCS players. I've always been a proponent of like a compensation structure that goes back and forth. Otherwise you're just choking off the lifeblood of the level of football below you. I know no one's really thinking about that right now, but I, I've been a proponent of that. So the other thing you're talking about, I don't know how big into conspiracy theories people are watching, but there's been a college football slash, like college athletics conspiracy theory for a while and it goes a little something like this. The commissioners slash power brokers in the sec and the Big Ten would really love to form a super league and break away from the rest of college football and, you know, just keep it all for themselves. That's the conspiracy. Well, that's probably not even conspiracy theory. That's probably just true. So the theory goes like this. They can't do it yet. What they need to do is they need to make college athletics look like such a disaster. Their only recourse is to break away and look out for themselves. Survival of the fittest at that point. And look, I don't know what validity there is to that. I will say this, if that were to be the case, the actions that these people are taking right now wouldn't look much different than they do currently. So I don't know how much validity there is to that conspiracy theory. But to take it a step further, what I mean by that is how do you fix that? How do you govern? How do you put teeth behind your enforcement mechanism? Well, you make sure that you're free of antitrust legislation or antitrust penalty, which means you break away and you form your own entity. And at that point, if LSU is going to be in there and Washington's going to be in there, that's okay. But they're going to agree to abide by a very similar self built governance structure like the Detroit Lions and Jacksonville Jaguars would have to operate under. If you don't like it, you're not going to be a part of it. We're all going to make plenty enough money here. We're going to work together. And of course we don't really care what it means for Fresno State. We really don't care what it means for Washington State. Now naturally I hate that because I am a fan of college football in the hole. I'm not an SEC or a Big Ten fan. It does somewhat make sense to me if someone wants to look objectively and say, hey, it's pretty obvious from a resource standpoint we got about 30 or 35 schools operating at a different level than the rest of the country. I do understand that. I also understand it's because the moves you made, you can't go and poach and realign conferences and then look back behind your shoulder and say, boy, wow, the Pac 12 doesn't even exist anymore. Boy, wow, the Big 12 is really lagging behind. Boy, the ACC is really lagging behind. Yes, you took all their value properties because you could. I don't think the landscape should be such that you could. That that's kind of my been my fundamental problem with it.
- [24:05]
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- [24:07]
John Middlekauff
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- [27:35]
John Middlekauff
You know, Collins, big thing is the wealth of certain conferences are a lot different than other conferences. And the sec, you know, you're from, you're from Georgia originally, right? Is that where. Yep. And now you live in Nashville. I mean, you're immersed in SEC country. This. I, I do wonder if there's a symbolic portion of this ticket resale market for this national championship game. Obviously Indiana historically is a joke, but you can't parallel 1987 to now when you can just grab players, right? Buy players. He leaves the job, he can take all the players with him. Not taking anything away from Signetti, but what he's done the last couple years would not have been possible from a roster standpoint eight years ago. It just wouldn't. Right? And obviously, I mean these, obviously I didn't know this. I mean, I knew the Big Ten had bigger schools than other, you know, universities around the country and other conferences, but potentially, and people probably debate this, but Indiana's up for the number one alumni base in the country. And if you just do the law of averages, if I'm producing more kids every year, the likelihood of producing more rich kids is going to be higher. Right. Even if it's a tiny, tiny percent. And obviously Cuban's involved, Miami private school clearly has money. And I do wonder, if you look at this like one question, is the SEC in trouble? Obviously they still are going to be fine because financially their television deal, but just in terms of the big money guys, Ron Rivera, GM accounts more billionaires than anyone in the any school, Harvard included. But like most of them don't care about Cal. If Ron can convince a couple of those guys, hey, come out with me. Come, come to the game. Like, I couldn't be the GM for them. You couldn't be the GM for them and probably get calls back.
- [29:25]
Unidentified Guest/Co-host
But maybe Ron can't.
- [29:26]
John Middlekauff
Hey, former NFL coach, they know who Ron is. Same thing with luck, right? And I just wonder, do you think financially that the SEC who just, you know, look at Texas Tech, they got.
- [29:38]
Unidentified Guest/Co-host
Someone that most of the SEC schools.
- [29:40]
John Middlekauff
Don'T have, you know, I'm sure you saw that Connor Stallion's tweet about, you know, the car dealership, which was funny. Know a lot of people make fun of him. But is, was there any validity to their lack of, I mean, we're talking about 100 millionaires and billionaires funding these programs. Do, do you think that's a big picture worry?
- [29:59]
Josh Pate
Yes. I'm from the South. I live in the South. I can tell you it's a huge worry in the South. And even from an existential, like college football perspective, I would worry about that because think about disproportionately where the, if you look at a college football heat map, you know what Atlanta looks like, you know what Birmingham looks like, New Orleans, Nashville, like Dallas, Houston, you know, those places are really disproportionately where the juice is for college football interest. Well, if you're talking about the lifeblood currently just being how much money you can give of the sport, you're talking about laying those two maps over each other and they don't align, that would concern me a little bit long term. I don't think this is long term because of the next point. I'm going to make twofold. First, you can't just rely on rich people to bankroll you minus return on investment infinitely, just forever. That's not going to happen. There's still a lot of newness to this. So there's still a lot of novelty to this. And it's a big deal, you know, to be able to kick in a few million and be able to get a linebacker from Ohio State and then he keys your playoff run, that's wonderful. Your school reaps a financial windfall from that if they make the playoff, if they win conferences. But as an investor outside of your happiness, which is wonderful if that's what you value, I wish more people did. You're not really getting a return on the investment they're asking you to give with no financial return. That is a short term strategy. Long term strategy is to make sure you have either via collective bargaining agreement or via antitrust exemption, a model where revenue sharing and therefore payment to players is baked into the system. Instead of this disproportionate, discombobulated, hey, look at us. We happen to have a billionaire so we can bankroll a team. Like, I don't know where in the world anyone thinks that's sustainable. Of course, like if you live in Lubbock, Texas, you're going to push back on this. You're a beneficiary of that, I understand you're going to push back on it. I would ask you if you can remove your red Raider cap for just a second. Ask yourself if you think that's in the greater interest of college football. But I know what your pushback would be. Your pushback would be. I don't care about what the greater interest of college football is because no one else making decisions cared about Texas Tech. When it came to the greater interest of college football. We were getting left behind. We were getting boxed out of the whole super conference model. So this is what we have to do. That's why it's not a one fold answer to me. It's a multi pronged answer. Because you got to address the first problem I just talked about while also addressing the second problem I just talked about, you know.
- [32:37]
John Middlekauff
Well, let's use Joey McGuire as an example. Obviously I think he just got an extension because he was in the playoffs. If he had gone 8 and 4, is he still the coach after they spent that much money on the roster? You know, so it's, that's where I think the pressure like the NFL, there's added pressure when I buy a bunch of free agents, when we've drafted high players. You know, before you got a longer Runway, these people have been complaining in college football. Like what has it become? Well, it's become worth spending a lot.
- [33:03]
Unidentified Guest/Co-host
Of money in this roster.
- [33:04]
John Middlekauff
We better win. It's why you really Stark's a good example. They had a high priced team this year and you felt, you know, you could see it on his face, like he was a little on edge and he was a guy that what they've been in the final four the last two years. Like he's had, he resurrected the program and you could feel it. And if it's true, $40 million roster and let's just say they have the highest paid roster, they'll have a pretty good idea they're near the top, if.
- [33:27]
Unidentified Guest/Co-host
Not at the top.
- [33:29]
John Middlekauff
It's going to be like a win or bus year for him, right? Not, not the national championship, but like he couldn't miss the playoffs.
- [33:35]
Josh Pate
I, I don't think he just needs to make the playoff. You're talking about huge money here, okay. And you're talking about the field being 12 teams. For all we know it could be 16. But at the very least, do you.
- [33:47]
John Middlekauff
Think it changes next year?
- [33:48]
Josh Pate
I, I hope not, but I, it sounds like we're at a 50, 50 right now. Like it sounds like the SEC in the Big Ten. Sidebar. That for a second with Sark, I, I don't think it's good enough for him to just make the playoff. Like I hate to participate in this kind of conversation, but you're not wrong. And with the field being bigger than it used to be, you think that fan base is about to look at their school in large part because they helped it spend 40 million on a roster and say, oh good, we were one of the 12 best teams in the country. That's not 40 million dollar return. 40 million dollar return is. We're a prime player for the national championship. We very, at the very least, we better be within reach of the national championship if not winning the thing. If that sounds insane, yeah, it is. But we, we've long since removed adding that label because it's just a given with the current state of college football. But they, they got Arch Manning who played his best ball at the end of the year, and then they go get Cam Coleman, who was the number one overall rated player in the portal. Big time wide receiver talent out of Auburn. Wingo still there. I don't know if you noticed what they did with their tailback room. They flushed their tailback room. Totally not bad players, but they flushed them and brought in all the top, well, a couple of the top tailbacks in the portal. So they're just, they're just re engineering critical parts of the roster. They're keeping the parts that they like. It's Texas, so they had a lot of parts they already liked. And it is a go for it type year. It's Ohio State last year, John. Ohio State last year. I'm not going to say 40, but they had a substantial investment in their roster. They lose to Michigan, but because the playoffs big enough, they still find a way to back their way in. They play their best ball at the end of the year, they win it and so it all paid off. But you remember what the talk was after that Michigan game. There were people legitimately questioning whether Ryan Day should keep his job if they go one and done in the playoffs. So that's absolutely the temperature that will be on Sark this, this fall.
- [35:43]
John Middlekauff
I bet on Tennessee in that game. I look like an idiot, but yeah.
- [35:47]
Josh Pate
23, 23 at kickoff. That was a tough night.
- [35:50]
John Middlekauff
That was brutal. You think Lane was rooting for Ole Miss the other day? No, no chance.
- [35:55]
Josh Pate
No, I. No. There may be like individuals that he was pulling for, but no one's going to convince me that, that that relationship ended on good terms. In retrospect, I don't even know how it could have ended on good terms. Unless he just stayed, in which case he may be bitter that he stayed. So. No. No, I do not.
- [36:13]
Unidentified Guest/Co-host
Do you think it's.
- [36:14]
John Middlekauff
Trinidad got a raw deal for the Division 2 counting, like, what. What are we doing here? We've let so many people just, let's have a good time. Let him play one more year. I would understand if he had been coming from even like a Fresno State or a Boise State. You're talking about Ferris State. It really was. It felt like one of the more genuine college football stories in a long time.
- [36:36]
Josh Pate
Yeah. So I try not to get wrapped up in the story part of it because I want to make that independent of my answer on it, because I do. As dangerous as this is, I do try and put myself in an NCAA decision makers position. Yeah.
- [36:49]
John Middlekauff
I don't even know if he had a case. Like, I mean, I actually didn't. So here.
- [36:52]
Josh Pate
So here's where this bit me. I'll lose train of thought if I don't answer this. I don't. I never immersed myself in enough of the details with Trinidad. So when I saw that ruling come down, I probably had the same reaction you did. I just want to see him play another year because I like watching him play. So when I see that ruling, I'm predisposed to go double barrel, middle fingers to the ncaa. Can't stand you guys. You're in it for everything but the players, blah, blah, blah. Maybe that's the case. But I go back a few months before the season. There was a kid who had transferred to South Carolina, tailback, I believe. And he, he had a waiver request into the ncaa and the word was it got denied and then they had to reapply. I'm a little hazy on the details, but the general message here will be sound. And it kept on going and kept on going. And South Carolina fans were pissed because they were thinking, how long does it take to just review a guy's appeals process? It's either approved or denied. But then it stretched into fall camp and then it was torch and pitchfork at NCAA headquarters. Shame on you guys. You're detrimental to players. And come to find out, paperwork had been submitted wrong. And so the way the proposal had to be submitted had only been submitted late in the spring slash summer. And the NCAA had actually informed South Carolina and guided them on how to apply it properly. Well, that never saw the light of day. So, you know, my point is, once you're read in on critical details, sometimes you realize, oh, man, I've been Demonizing someone. And I didn't even know what I was talking about. So I've come to adopt that approach. With all these appeals requests, whether it be Pavia or Trinidad or anyone else, I'm going to assume I don't know the full story. I'm going to assume I haven't gone through his case with a fine tooth comb. I know what I personally want to see. I want to see him play again. And I know the NCAA doesn't have the best track record in court, so who knows, maybe we will see him again. But I'm trying not to get too up in arms about that one.
- [39:08]
John Middlekauff
Well, let's just end on the natty. I think a lot of the country is going to be rooting for Indiana. I mean, his Google me statement and then to live up to it over the couple years. But just from an on the field standpoint, obviously they haven't lost the game. But if they win this game, to beat Ohio State, to roll Alabama, to destroy Oregon and then beat a Miami team which is loaded with pros and is really good. Right. I mean, they are really good. It would be truly, and I get it, this isn't 1993 where he's just done this organically. It's still one of the crazier stories in my lifetime in sports. I, I, I truly believe that.
- [39:49]
Josh Pate
Yeah, I and I kind of think.
- [39:51]
John Middlekauff
He'S going to do it. It almost feels too good to be true. They're huge favorite. I think Miami probably gets to fly a little under the radar after kind of their weird performance against Ole Miss because their talent is pretty immense, especially the line of scrimmage.
- [40:05]
Josh Pate
I don't know where we would find a better college football story. I don't really know off the top of my head who that would be. You know, someone asked me the other day, is it a Cinderella story? I don't call it a Cinderella story. I call it an incredible story. Cinderella to me, as if he stayed at James Madison and James Madison.
- [40:20]
John Middlekauff
But if Boise State had won a national championship under Peterson, like a legit.
- [40:25]
Josh Pate
Have not like at Indiana. Just because you haven't doesn't mean you're not tapped into massive pools of media rights money. And you got Mark Cuban there. I'm not saying money is why they're winning this. But you're not going to call any Big Ten or SEC team a have not or a Cinderella.
- [40:37]
John Middlekauff
He has the Heisman Trophy number one overall pick quarterback right now.
- [40:41]
Josh Pate
Well, the quarterback's the key part there. Like, if I'm Going to shoot down the Cinderella argument. You're obviously not doing this without Fernando Mendoza. If you just take Mendoza, they pay two and a half million dollars for him, which is a bargain, by the way, but they still pay two and a half million for him. That's more than the entire payroll of most G5 teams. So that's not a have not. That's not a Cinderella. It's an insanely good story. It's an improbable story because the thing about Indiana is they don't have access to anything that the rest of the Big Ten doesn't and the rest of the SEC doesn't. So everyone had access to go after these same players. Everyone is totally free to run their operation and their program on the same principles and value systems that Kurt Signetti does. So it's not like there's some magic formula, secret ingredient. The ingredients are the same ones that have worked since the dawn of time. If you're trying to build anything, it's just that it's so human nature to think that you evolve beyond this change and move beyond that. Well, yeah, maybe no one's running the triple option offense anymore, so maybe principles of the specific tactical way you go about the game have changed. But there are some non negotiables and Signetti's just got the audacity to lean into him and he's. He's just whipping other people that thought they were good enough to overthink the room on this stuff. So, yeah, I will caution this. Please enjoy this. And I'm speaking to Indiana fans right now. They were awesome to be around in Atlanta, by the way. Ton of them. Unbelievable.
- [42:05]
John Middlekauff
What was the ratio? I saw 85.
- [42:07]
Josh Pate
It had to be 50 to 1 on the street. It was you. You were. It was like a Where's Waldo to find green shirts around Atlanta. I've never seen it. It was like Sherman coming into Atlanta. That's how big they invaded Atlanta. It was unbelievable. However, I had a conversation, and maybe this is anecdotal, I had a conversation with an Indiana fan and he said to me, as great as this team is, this is the least talented team Signetti will have in his remainder of his time in Indiana. And I, I said, okay, go on. What do you mean by that? And his implication was, we're only going to get better from here. You may get more talented from here. Signetti will never have a better team at Indiana than he does right now. If you, you guys more than anyone should know how you define team. It ain't just talent. And so this is. I don't care how long he stays there. This is like when he was at Alabama under Saban. Those 0809 teams, the first ones that Saban had, that made a run at titles. He always told the story about how special those groups were and he had way more talented teams come after him. But there was nothing like the dynamics they had on those first teams because those were the last kids that came in with a what can we do for Alabama Mentality instead of a what can Alabama do for me mentality. And now you'll see Indiana be a destination and they'll still run them through the same filter they always have. So it's not like they're going to fall off a cliff. You will never have a dynamic from a team aspect in the sport of football that's better than what they've put on the field this year. There's. I don't think it's possible to improve from what they've done this year.
- [43:42]
John Middlekauff
Does Miami look way better than they do just when you're on the sideline, having been around both these two teams?
- [43:46]
Josh Pate
Oh, yes, yes. It's insane. They're the best looking team in college football. Sometimes that's a slight because you're saying it about a team that hasn't performed.
- [43:53]
John Middlekauff
Yeah, it's like an Auburn team. You're like, they went 5 and 7, but God, they look good.
- [43:57]
Josh Pate
Oh, they look good though. No. Miami's line of scrimmage. I think you're going to hear this stat thrown around so much this week, but they outweigh Indiana's O line by like. Or D line by like £50. O line versus D line.
- [44:09]
John Middlekauff
Well, the two tackles got to be a combined £700 or something. I mean, they are massive and they.
- [44:15]
Josh Pate
Play to their size. So that's going to be fun to watch, man. Because Indiana has been so good at getting leads on teams and making it where you can't even use the run game. You got to throw the ball to keep up. If Miami can weather that early storm or better yet, create the storm early and they're, they're able to stay balanced in their play calling and they're able to use that four quarter lean on you approach. The law of physics says that should work. Now the law of physics Indiana has defied all year, but it says it should work.
- [44:43]
John Middlekauff
Imagine if I would have told young Josh Pate that Miami beating Indiana in a national championship where they both went through a bracket would be known as a massive, massive, you know, upset. I don't think you would have believed me 15, 20 years ago.
- [44:58]
Josh Pate
I don't even know what to say. Yeah, I don't even know what to say.
- [45:01]
John Middlekauff
Well, thanks, man, for coming on. And we'll see on. You can be on ESPN later this week.
- [45:06]
Josh Pate
I will at some point. Just you make sure you're in the gym and I'll make sure that you see me. How about that?
- [45:12]
John Middlekauff
That bald head glistens and puts a smile on my face, man. Take it easy, man. Thanks for coming on.
- [45:17]
Josh Pate
Appreciate it, brother. The volume.
- [45:25]
John Middlekauff
This is an iHeart podcast.
- [45:28]
Josh Pate
Guaranteed Human.