← The Herd with Colin Cowherd
The Herd with Colin Cowherd
3 & Out - The draft is unpredictable, Bengals are spending money, Atlanta and Cousins
01:15:37
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- [00:00]
John Middlekauff
AI is redefining what's possible for your business. With more unique challenges to solve and higher stakes than ever, Microsoft helps you stay ahead. Our trustworthy AI tools and guidance can empower leaders like you to drive greater impact. And with Azure's simplified platform management, we're helping businesses go further, faster, unlocking up to 150% improved output. Whatever challenge comes next, let Microsoft help you keep pushing forward. For more details, visit Microsoft.com challengers you can count on T Mobile to help keep you connected from big cities to small towns on America's largest 5G network. Switch the T Mobile keep your phone and they'll pay it off up to 800 bucks per line via prepaid card. Learn more@t mobile.com Keep and switch up to four lines via virtual prepaid card. Allow 15 days qualifying unlock device credit service port in 90 plus days with device and eligible carrier and timely redemption Required card has no cash access and expires in six months we live in.
- [01:08]
Jeremy Hobson
A divided country and our media couldn't be more polarizing. That's why we started the Middle with Jeremy Hobson. It's about bringing voices not from the extremes but from the vast middle into the national conversation. Each week we hear from ordinary Americans from all over the country. And when you subscribe to the Middle, you also get an episode each week called One Thing Trump did that focuses on just one item from the avalanche of news. Listen to the Middle with Jeremy Hobson on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.
- [01:37]
Colleen Witt
Are you hungry? Colleen Witt here and Eating While Broke is back for Season four every Thursday on the Black Effect Podcast Network. This season we've got a legendary lineup.
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John Middlekauff
Serving up broke dishes and even better stories.
- [01:51]
Colleen Witt
On the menu we have Tony Baker, Nick Cannon, Melissa Ford, October London and Carrie Harper Howey turning Big Macs into big moves. Catch Eating While Broke every Thursday on The Black Effect PODC Podcast Network. IHeartRadio app Apple podcast Wherever you get your favorite shows, come hungry for season four, the Volume.
- [02:25]
John Middlekauff
What is going on everybody? How are we doing? I'm John, this is three and out podcast. Hopefully you're having a great day out there in the streets of reality. We will talk a little football today because it's what we do here and we had some big contract extensions happen this morning. I actually got up really early, I couldn't sleep and the Rory McElroy playoffs were starting at 6am My time and I was had a cup of coffee at about 5:30 and I saw that jamar Chase and T. Higgins had been extended. So I did an initial reaction video for YouTube only and then Rory won the players and I did a reaction video to that. Those are video only. And then as the day went on I kind of let it marinate and dove more in depth on just my thoughts of that move. When it came to Cincinnati, Derek Stingley, the corner star all pro corner for the Texans, signed a very historically large contract and I got to give we'll dive into Casario because I think he made a tough decision several years ago when he drafted him and he deserves a lot of credit. Kirk Cousins and Arthur Blank are currently in an ego prideful staring contest as Kirk Cousins just collects more cash and then some other NFL stories as well as a mailbag at John Middlekopf At John Middlekopf is the Instagram fire in those DMs and get your questions answered here on the show. So fire in those DMs get questions answered here on the show. And other than that, make sure you subscribe to the podcast. Like I said, the YouTube channel, we have some content that is not for on the podcast, so you can go check that out as well. Just type in my name, subscribe to the channel and buckle up because we will have podcasts all week long. But first, I do got to tell you about my friends, my partners in the official ticketing app of this podcast. They happen to go by Game Time. And as many of you know, I just got married and I was in Nashville for probably a couple days too long. A lot of partying, a lot of drinking and a lot of love. But while we were there, a lot of people that were at the wedding, a lot of our friends and family, you know, basically took a vacation there as well. And someone was like, hey, you know, the Predators have like multiple games while we're staying here. I'm like, well, you should go. I can't make it, but go to the game. It's like, okay, where should I get tickets? I'm like, well download the Game Time app and you can search by where you want to sit. The price point in terms of where you want to sit, it gives you incredible ability to like check out what your view would look like. And they had a blast. And I think they went to Predators played. I forget who they were playing, but I cannot recommend it enough. So if you want to go to a hockey game, if you want to go, the baseball season's right around the corner. You got the NBA playoffs, a March Madness game. If your team starts making a Little run here, obviously. Concerts, comedy shows, you name it, any event you want to go to. Get on it. Take the guesswork out of buying tickets with GameTime. Download the GameTime app, create an account and use the code JOHN for $20 off your first purchase terms apply. Again, create an account and use the code Johan for $20 off. Down the Gametime app today, last minute tickets, lowest price is guaranteed. One thing with the draft right around the corner, you will hear a lot. And I think it's one of the most laughable kind of narratives every single April is some guys have a really, really high floor and I think that's very easy to say and I understand sometimes why it's set. But no one has any clue what a player's ceiling will be and what a player's floor will be despite their physical characteristics. At 19, 20, 21 years old playing in college football, no one knew that Jason Kelsey would be a Hall of Famer or he wouldn't have been picked in the sixth round. Same thing with his brother. And I'm just using those two examples because they popped into my head. But I'll use a current example. Couple years ago everyone was like, Zach Wilson has a special skill set now because of byu, the COVID season. It's hard to truly judge how good he is because of the level of competition they're playing, but his skill set is pretty special. No one argued Mac Jones loaded team excelled in 2020, kind of a fugazi season, but has a lot of characteristics of just like solid quarterbacks, has a much higher floor. One guy went to the other guy could have gone three if Kyle Shanahan would have pulled the trigger, ended up going 15. And the reality is five years later they're both in the same spot, both making five, six million dollars to be backups. No one has any clue but some guys have higher skill sets than others. So if they do hit and when I say they don't have any clue, we don't know who's going to be good and bad because so much determines that the one you're all the intangible stuff that no matter how hard you scout, you don't know. And when you look at the Houston Texans like they took some shit because when they took Derek Stingley, the safe pick was Sas Gardner. And honestly, early on in that race they look like idiots because the first two years Sas Gardner was a first team all pro. And as an NFL executive told me this year, you know what happened, John? They started, they started not swallowing the whistle. They started Calling some of that, that bump and run might be a little too physical. Penalty. Sauce isn't the greatest athlete in the league. He's not Deion Sanders or Darrell Revis or Derek Stingley. So if he is not allowed to be extra physical, some of the man to man situations can be a problem. He can't run for stride, stride for stride with some of the elites, know who can. Stingley, one of the best athletes in the last three or four drafts. But when Nick Casario pulled the trigger and drafted him third overall over Sauce, who was the much safer pick? And like I said early on in their career was the better player, People went, casserio, this guy hasn't even been good in college the last couple years because remember in 2019, one of the greatest college football teams of all time, the LSU Tigers, Joe Burrow, Jamar Chase, Justin Jefferson, Derek Stingley. Well, Derek Stingley was a true freshman. And he looked like Deon Sanders, Darrell Rivas that year. Then the next couple years got weird. The Ed Ogeron program kind of fell apart and he was caught up in the middle of it. I've said forever. Most guys are followers. Most guys cannot rise above problems. It's why you see college players, they get caught in situations that are unraveling. Like when a program is going the wrong way, get caught up in it. I remember he's actually a GM now. Told me about Hu Funga. He's like, you know, the one thing with Hunga, who was part of the USC program when it was a shit show with Clay Helton, they weren't winning a lot. He's like, he was probably the only guy. Because a lot of times when you're losing, coaches and people around the program won't have positive things to say about guys because it's easy for guys to kind of fall into a negative mindset. And I wouldn't even say be part of the problem, but just be caught up in all the crap. And Hufonga was an example, is like, yeah, he just kind of rose above it. You never heard one negative thing about him. And that's not normal. And he still played at a high level. Now, Hufonga didn't have the talent level of Stingley, but Stingley got caught up in it all, didn't play well. And Casario went, you know what? I'm swinging for the fences. And here's the thing, when you swing for the fences, which I advocate toward always, because a high floor guy can bust just as easily as a super high talented guy, at least give yourself an opportunity like that high floor guy, Mac Jones, even if he hit, never had the opportunity to be a top five quarterback. He physically did not possess the gifts right. So when you swing for Derek Stingley, it might go wrong. He might just be another one of those corners who washed out of the league in five or six years. Or he becomes a first team all pro and a guy that can go stride for stride and mirror any wide receiver in the NFL. And you watch him this year, it's like Jesus. For as, like bad as C.J. stroud played, this guy looked like this guy's a star. So I just think that when drafts come, you have to be okay with I might miss on the pick no matter what. So let's go for the guy with the best traits, with the greatest gifts. And that's what Stingley possessed. And it took him a couple of years, but when he figured out, you go, is that him or certain the best corner in the NFL. So when you see that they give him a historic deal today and they give him almost $90 million guaranteed, like that's what they were shooting for and that's the best case scenario and he hit it. So props to Casario for pulling the trigger when he did on that player because it worked. And it's always cool. Like I like ballsy picks and sometimes they don't work, sometimes they blow up in your face. But you can't be scared, especially drafting high right? When you have the pick of the litter. It's one thing when you know you're like the Rams or the Chiefs or the Bills, like you only have so many options when you're picking 23, 28, 30, right? When you're picking in the top five or six, you have the majority of the draft there, right? Like it's, it's a difficult decision and you got to like, it's really kind of comes down to philosophically what you believe in. You want to play it safe or do you want to put all the chips in the middle of the table? And when it came to defensive backs, that's what Casario did over Sauce Gardner. And I think he got it right because, and I'm not anti sauce, but if the referees are going to be aggressive with their PI calls and his physicality, it ain't even close. There is not a general manager in the NFL and that includes whoever the new guy is with the jets who wouldn't take Stingley over Sauce Gardner. So that's where we're at, the Bengals. I've had some time to think about this and one, and I think Stingley falls under this, too, you feel much better about giving massive amounts of money to guys you've drafted. Why? Because you know them really well. You have spent years around not the player, but the human being. Because in football, you meet, you lift, you're just sitting in the facility way more than you're on the field and playing NFL football. So you spend more time around Jamar Chase and T. Higgins and Joe Burrow and all these guys, the human beings, than you do, quote, unquote, the players. Now, it's all intertwined, right? They're lifting, they're studying, like it's all part of the package. But when you give a contract, right or wrong, because I hesitate to say that's a great deal like Jamar Chase, no problem. Jamar Chase could play any era, anytime, be an elite. I mean, Jamar Chase, I'm not alone saying this might be. I don't know how many players are better at football than Jamar Chase in the NFL, including quarterbacks. I mean, is he one of the top five or six, seven most talented individual players in the NFL? I think he is. And you just, you keep. The whole point of a draft is to find a Jamar Chase and then keep that guy on your team as long as humanly possible, especially if he's healthy and playing at an elite level. I think sometimes when you get a redundant position, you go, like, let's use the Texans, for example. If they had a Derek Stingley and then another guy who wouldn't make 89 guaranteed, but maybe would be like 55, 60 guaranteed, you know what they probably would do? They would trade that player. Because is it awesome having two lockdown corners? Of course it is. Is it great business to have all your money into a position on the perimeter? I think it's pretty risky. And I would say the same thing about this. Teagan's clearly high level cat, productive. I mean, he was banged up last year, missed a bunch of games, still at 10 touchdowns. So if you combine the two guys, they scored 27 touchdowns, two of them. And he has an incredible rapport with the quarterback. And the quarterback. I don't think it's just beating the drum to give him an extension because he wants him to be rich. I think he wants to win, and he thinks his best chance to win is with this player. And I don't blame him for thinking that. But I do think when you look at the totality of what you have to compete against in the conference, which is Josh Allen, Patrick Mahomes, and Lamar Jackson. And I'd even say, I think the Chargers are coming. They would never do that. They would never allocate that many resources to two wide receivers because it's just bad business. And this is where I think the Bengals passed of. And I talked about this when I. When I did. The reaction video is like, I think Mike Brown's pretty rattled because the talk of, like, could Joe Burrow in like, a year or two be like, I can't be here anymore. I want out. And typically you'd say, listen, it's. It's football. The organization has more juice. Like, that's not. This isn't the NBA. You go, well, he had a situation 15 plus years ago with Carson Palmer, and he was like, I'm not playing for you anymore. And he just quit on him, and he was just gone. And that happened. I don't ever quite remember that happening at that level with a. With a player of that, you know, ability at that position. I mean, it had to kind of scar you. And I think Joe Burrow is. I would take, you know, a young Joe Burrow over Carson Palmer. And Carson Palmer's incredible. I mean, Carson Palmer was awesome, but I just think you have to make this guy happy. And they're in this weird NBA situation. Like, I totally understood forever in LeBron's prime, like, yeah, do what he wanted to. He's the best player in the league. Like, if Giannis wants something, I'd listen to him. If Jokic wants something, I'd listen to him. If Steph Curry wants something, I'd listen to him. But then there are players. Like, I'm not listening to that guy. Like, I don't care if I'm Miami what TUA thinks. I'm not looking to get his opinion right. Like, the Cardinals aren't getting on the horn with Kyler Murray to ask about his free agency thoughts. But, like, Andy Reed probably run stuff by Patrick Mahomes. Same thing with the Bills with Josh Allen. Joe Burrows earned that. So is it ideal business? Like, is this something that every GM in the league would have done? Probably not. But given their situation with Joe Burrow, like, I kind of understand now the pressure on them. Like, the reason that they missed the playoffs wasn't because they needed just more firepower on offense. Offense wasn't the issue. Their defense was putrid. And for as important as it is to have a great coordinator. And it is. I mean, look at. Look at the best teams the last couple of years. The Ravens with Mike McDonald, the Chiefs with Spagnola, the Niners in their heyday with Wasala and D'Amico. You need having elite defensive coordinators is the Eagles this year with Fangio is really, really important. What that week 17 game or week 18? I get my weeks the 17th game of the season. So week 18, what Aaron Glenn did against Sam Darnold. Having a high end defensive coordinator. There aren't many of them, but you can't be a great defensive coordinator without really, really good players. And Al golden, like it wasn't that long ago that Lou Amaruno was viewed as a really good coordinator. Their roster was a lot better. And you look right now the situation with Trey Hendrickson, who's talked about like a free agent, though he's under contract, he just wants a lot more money, but he had an incredible year and the defense sucked. It's about depth, it's about having a good defense. Look at the Eagles is about having high end players, multiple at every level. Like you can't just have one great defensive lineman, average DB play and like a decent linebacker. Like, you're fucked. You need multiple all pros and not all at the same position. So the pressure now on the Bengals with them allocating to Burrow and the two wide receivers, I mean, especially if they extend Trey Hendrickson, which seems like it's very possible, they have little room for error in the draft. The other thing is offensive linemen are expensive, so they're not going to have the cash to buy these guys on the open market. They're going to have to hit on them too. So you're going to have to hit on defensive linemen, you're going to have to hit on defensive backs. You're going to have to hit on offensive linemen in the draft. If you tell me like, what are their needs in the draft, you go O line and defense and don't miss because if you do and you only hit on a player or two in a given draft, like, it's going to be very hard for you to make up ground on these elite programs who like you have hall of Fame guys at quarterback. So, like your point of difference, which is awesome, having Joe Burrow is somewhat neutralized because the teams you have to beat have Lamar Jackson, Patrick Mahomes and Josh Allen. I would like their chances a lot more. If you told me the Bengals were in the nfc, I'd be like, yeah, their chances are decent because they're going to have the best quarterback every time they play all the NFC teams. That's just not the case in the afc. That doesn't mean he can't outplay those guys, but like if those guys are on at the same time, they just cancel each other out. So I just, I get it. I totally understand it. We're going to see if it's going to work. I think it's going to be very, very difficult and basically their front office can't miss on any picks Foreign who's scoring big in the NBA this season? You are with the all new ways to get in on the action at DraftKings Sportsbook, an official sports betting partner of the NBA. 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- [21:45]
Colleen Witt
AI is redefining what's possible for your business. Are you up to the challenge? Microsoft is helping leaders like you get AI ready faster with unified data and simplified platform management, unlocking up to 150% improved output across industries. Leaders are turning to Microsoft's AI tools and guidance to rise to the challenge. For the NBA, that means using AI powered insights to deliver more personalized fan experiences. For BMW, it means innovating their development process safely and securely. And for Lego House, it means creating new interactive experiences for people to explore. With Microsoft's trustworthy AI tools and guidance, you can drive greater impact. Business leaders Microsoft surveyed saw an average of 3.7 times ROI per $1 invested in generative AI. Whatever challenge comes next, let Microsoft help you keep pushing forward. For more details, visit Microsoft.com challengers.
- [22:45]
Jeremy Hobson
We live in a divided country. I am a lifelong Republican with all kinds of different people.
- [22:50]
John Middlekauff
You know, I'm a mother, I'm a grandmother.
- [22:53]
Jeremy Hobson
That's why we started the Middle with Jeremy Hobson. It's about bringing voices not from the extremes, but from the vast middle into the national conversation.
- [23:01]
John Middlekauff
Anna, I'm calling from Las Vegas.
- [23:03]
Jeremy Hobson
Each week we bring together an all star panel. Mark Cuban, so great to have you on the Middle.
- [23:08]
John Middlekauff
Thanks for having me, Jeremy.
- [23:09]
Jeremy Hobson
Neil Degrasse Tyson, welcome to the Middle.
- [23:11]
Colleen Witt
Thanks for having me.
- [23:12]
Jeremy Hobson
And hear from ordinary Americans from all over the country on the most important issues.
- [23:17]
John Middlekauff
Hi, my name is Venkat. I'm calling you from Atlanta, Georgia.
- [23:20]
Jeremy Hobson
And when you subscribe to the Middle, you also get an episode each week called One Thing Trump did that focuses on just one item from the avalanche of news.
- [23:29]
John Middlekauff
We should be examining what our government spends its money on and are these jobs necessary and what are we doing here? But that doesn't seem to be what we're doing in this situation.
- [23:37]
Jeremy Hobson
Listen to the Middle with Jeremy Hobson on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
- [23:49]
John Middlekauff
We all have ego, we all have pride. And I think especially as guys, the older you get in any line of work you do, it's, it's gotten in the way of, of progress at times for all of us and can be difficult thing to, I would say, swallow or put to the side and let common sense reign supreme. Let it, let it drive a decision. And I think last year when they gave Kirk Cousins that contract, I understand what they were doing. Honestly, I don't even blame them for doing it. They were so desperate at quarterback or defined at quarterback, their quarterback situation was a joke, right? Like I, I get the Raiders trading a third round pick for Geno and then extending him. Like they're desperate at quarterback and he's a huge upgrade. Now, the Cousins thing, unlike Gino, the guy was coming off a torn Achilles and he was older. So it was, it was definitely risky, but I totally understood it. But then once you draft Michael Penix, it was like, okay, what's going on here? And then by the end of the year, Michael Penix, your starting quarterback, and you go into the offseason, Michael Penix is your starter. And whenever OTA start in the next three or four weeks, Michael Penix will be the guy leading the charge. Now, Cousins might just say, I'm not showing up to the offseason. So I think the Falcons would say what's the big deal? We will continue the staring contest. You can't convince me it is not easier on everybody to not have cut him loose a couple weeks ago and just end this circus. Like what are we really looking to get a six round pick now you could argue hey John, a six round picks better than just cutting him and eating it. I would say just moving on as a franchise and having a solo focus on one thing and that's doing everything humanly possible to help Michael Penix makes it easier on everybody, the front office and the team. And if they get, I would say anything of value, I will tip my hat and say I was wrong. I don't think that's happening. And Arthur Blank because of his pride and ego, which again, $10 million to him, I'm not crying for the guy's pocketbook but what a waste of fucking money. And what Kirk cousins to get $10 million guaranteed in 2026. I mean there is a chance that wherever Cousins ends up playing because he's not going to play for the Falcons, I promise you this, he will not be the Falcons backup at 27 and a half million dollars. So he will be somewhere else whenever they inevitably trade him for six or seventh round pick. You paid him $10 million or guaranteed that for next year. I mean and one, I think that also hinders his ability to get traded because what if he is a disaster? What if it really is like it's over which happens sometimes, I don't know, it's sports and he's old and he just can't play anymore. Because I think a lot of people go, well it's always the year. It's always the year after the year after. Right. So last year coming back up, the Achilles it takes especially a guy like him who's not a great athlete and can't really move. It's just going to take some time. But what if it never gets better? Because I remember watching Ben Roethlisberger after the arm injury like I'll give it a little time and then just never got better. Or Drew Brees as he got older, it's like God, his shoulder looks terrible. It's like why they're 37, 38, 39 years old and remove Tom Brady from the equation. That's usually what happens. So I just think this whole Falcon situation, you signed him, I got, we all get it. You were desperate for a quarterback, you took Michael Penix, you could argue, thank God you did or Else you'd be in a situation where you have to run it back with Kirk Cousins, which no one would want to do if you're a Falcons fan. But now you're in this situation where you're just like having this, you just, your refusal to cut him because you feel like he took advantage of you, I just think is dumb. And I think it's really being led by the owner, who is probably got to be pretty hot on this situation, given that his front office clearly convinced him to cut this money to an older player and it blew up in their face. Couple other quick things. I, I, I mentioned this with Coward about about the rumors out there on the Internet of DK Metcalf to the Chargers. This was obviously before he got traded to the Steelers, but when he had officially made his trade request, it's like, Jim Harbaugh should be all over D. Jim Harbaugh. Trade a high pick, give him extension, build the offense around DK Metcalf. Like, guys, have you watched Jim Harbaugh operate? It'd be like, why doesn't in and out sell tacos? It's like, what are you guys talking about? They have two items on their menu. Burgers and fries and milkshakes. Jim Harbaugh, offensive lineman, defensive lineman, running backs and defense. Defense, defense, defense, offensive line, quarterback, play under control. He was never going to trade for DK Metcalf. Maybe if DK Metcalf would take a huge pay cut and he could be had for like a fifth round pick, yeah, then maybe Harbaugh would have been interested. But given what the Pittsburgh Steelers traded for him, Jim Harbaugh would quit football before he made that move a couple days later. What does Jim Harbaugh do? He signs Makai Becton. Makai Becton is the most Jim Harbaugh signing. I mean, Makai back then and Najee Harris, a physical running back who just runs downhill and an offensive lineman who was drafted in the top 15 to play tackle, resurrects his career guard and is an absolute Mauler. Honestly reminds me a little bit at least the version that Stoutland had him playing of when, when Harbaugh had Mike Upati the guard who was really good before he had a devastating injury against Seattle, I think in the NFC championship game, like 2014. But you just stood next to him. He looked like a tackle, but he played guard and he was just, he was a mother. And this is Harbaugh. So whenever people go, why didn't Harbaugh guys, he's going to take linemen. Look at the last team that he had at Michigan, they had whatever, 15 players drafted. They had six guys on offense, Eveline get drafted. There are only five guys that start. He would have had however many guys more if Mason Graham and the other defensive tackle would have been eligible last year. He likes building it in the trenches. While he's a former quarterback, he doesn't think about the passing game first. He thinks about the line of scrimmage, physicality, winning the I am going to shove you the way you don't want to go. That's how, that's the most basic level Jim Harbaugh thinks about football. It's how he operated at Stanford. That's how he operated with the 49ers, it's how he operated with Michigan, and that's how he's now operating with the Chargers. He does not want guys like DK Metcalf. He wants guys like Makai Becton, like, that's, that's what he's going to want. Okay, last but not least, I saw that the, the SEC set a record for 14 teams getting in the NCAA Tournament. And I've been on this block for a while that clearly with the NIL now, there's a lot of moving parts. It looks like revenue sharing is about to come into college football, which I think if it's done correctly, would greatly benefit the SEC if everyone's on an equal playing field. But because right now there are some programs that are just. I mean, Texas is somewhat of an outlier and they're new to the SEC, but the Alabama's, the LSU's, it's going to be difficult for them to go up against Larry Ellison in Michigan giving Underwood $15 million, or Ohio State and Oregon with their, you know, backing of their boosters. But the money that has been made, I would even say before the NIL era, but even still, that with the television money in the sec, which is more than every other conference, and I've always said that Saban really urban started it and then Saban took it to another level and the SEC just started dominating college football and their television ratings are really high and they have the best television deal and they make the most money by far, that their programs really benefited. So when you see that the SEC got 14 teams in the NCAA tournament, that would never have happened 20 years ago because the SEC beside a couple programs, they always had Kentucky. And on given stretches, you know, Florida was really good with Billy Donovan, won some national championships, but they didn't go six or seven deep. They weren't, you Know what I grew up on the ACC or the Big East. That's what the SEC has become. Why? Because they pay so much money. Well, where did that money come from? Football. I said this to Colin also when I was in Nashville, I played at the Vanderbilt golf course. Their clubhouse at this golf course looks like a fucking mansion. It's not the clubhouse for the actual country club. That is however, three or four football fields to the right. That's just for the golf team that has 12 players on it and then has its own special little practice area which is massive. And when I was leaving the course, I looked over who's chipping at that practice facility. Peyton Manning. If you follow college baseball, you'll know that the sec, the last however handful of years, has dominated college baseball. Why? Because they're paying the top coaches more money than all these other conferences. So the amount of money that's getting pumped into these programs because of the distribution from the football program has been historic. So when you look at the SEC dominating college basketball, I think this all goes back to tell Nick Saban thank you. And when I say Nick Saban thank you because of his dominance, put so much pressure on the other programs in in the conference to quadruple down on football, which they were already addicted to, has benefited everybody not in the football program at these school.
- [34:14]
Colleen Witt
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- [35:14]
Jeremy Hobson
We live in a divided country. I am a lifelong Republican with all kinds of different people.
- [35:19]
John Middlekauff
You know, I'm a mother, I'm a grandmother.
- [35:22]
Jeremy Hobson
That's why we started the Middle with Jeremy Hobson. It's about bringing voices not from the extremes, but from the vast middle into the national conversation.
- [35:30]
John Middlekauff
Anna, I'm calling from Las Vegas.
- [35:32]
Jeremy Hobson
Each week we bring together an all star panel. Mark Cuban. So great to have you on the Middle. Thanks for having me, Jeremy. Neil DeGrasse Tyson, welcome to the Middle.
- [35:40]
Colleen Witt
Thanks for having me.
- [35:41]
Jeremy Hobson
And hear from ordinary Americans from all over the country on the most important issues.
- [35:46]
John Middlekauff
Hi, my name is Venkat. I'm calling you from Atlanta, Georgia.
- [35:49]
Jeremy Hobson
And when you subscribe to the Middle, you also get an episode each week called One Thing Trump did that focuses on just one item from the avalanche of news.
- [35:58]
John Middlekauff
We should be examining what our government spends its money on and are these jobs necessary? And what are we doing here? But that doesn't seem to be what we're doing in this situation.
- [36:06]
Jeremy Hobson
Listen to the Middle with Jeremy Hobson on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
- [36:18]
John Middlekauff
Okay, let's dive into a little mailbag. At John Middle Cough. At John Middle Cough. Is the Instagram fire in those dms? Let's start with Brooks. Is Micah Parsons toxic? Can you go scorched earth on the Cowboys like you did the 49ers? You know what's funny is whenever I see, like, Micah Parsons trending, obviously he gives a lot of takes. I kind of appreciate that. And sometimes you see his take. And listen, I haven't agreed with the ball. When I first saw his take on McCarthy, remember him talking about players that worked hard and Mike doesn't work hard, or when you just read his quotes. And then I listen to him talk, I'm like, I kind of like Micah. I don't. I've always had a soft spot for him. I think he's a pretty special player. And again, this is why print media is so dead. If you just see a title with a quote, you're like, oh, what's he talking about here? And then I hear him discuss something, I'm like, yeah, you might have a point. And I'm not saying he's right on everything, and I'm not even saying that I follow up with everything that he says, but I. I do think that he is a product of when you're on the Cowboys, like it or not, you are just a lead into a lot of these shows. And when you make news because of your Micah, you host a podcast. And a lot of times Maiko reacts to things that are said about him, which. Which I appreciate. I have no problem. I talk for a living. So how am I going to beat down someone else who also gives opinions? And I don't have to agree with them all. I bet a lot of you listen to me, don't agree with all my opinions. Micah Parsons can Play on my team. Now, I understand from a Cowboy standpoint, how much do you want to invest in them? Because you've given Dak and CD all this money. I think he's a pretty special player. I would say this. Micah has not been the problem for the Dallas Cowboys. He simply is not. So I think it's easy. Like, he gave some comment on, I'll be honest, the Dexter Lawrence back and forth. Like, I just don't care. Like, I'm sorry, Dexter, Mike is a better player than you. And like, do you think he's the reason you haven't been winning? I just disagree with that. I mean, I think a big reason that you didn't make a run those couple years in the playoffs because Dak was throwing it to the other team. Because for two straight years, when you had the Niners on the ropes in the second year and that first year, I'm talking about the three straight years making the playoffs and went, lost the Niners, lost the Niners, lost the Packers. Packers. You got your ass kicked. That, that happens. I mean, sometimes you just play an awful game and you get worked. Two years ago happened to the Eagles. The Tampa Bay Buccaneers kick their ass. Now when you're at home, it sucks. But the other two games, it was Dax fault. It was simply Dax fault. I just think that. I don't think he's toxic. I mean, I think we've seen kind of quote unquote toxic players. I think like a Terrell Owens maybe in his heyday. I don't view Micah that way now. I don't pretend to, like, have all the inside information in the locker room. I could probably text a coach that had worked there before. But I don't think around the league, people view Micah as some of the quote, unquote, toxic players of the past. I do think anytime you put yourself out there and you talk a lot, you're going to make news when you're a player of his caliber and when you're on the Cowboys. So if anything, you could say, like, is the podcast worth it? Well, when you're winning, it's awesome. When you have a shitty year, it's not great. And I think sometimes, like, when a player goes, we're gonna win a Super bowl or something, you know, says some stupid stuff. I just, I can't think of all Micah's takes off top of my head. It's like, what's he supposed to say? Yeah, we're just gonna suck for the next three years? So I. I don't know. The only Issue I ever had, like, true issue I've had with Micah was the comment he made about McCarthy with the Zach Martin thing, and then he like doubled down and pushed back against it. But I just, I just thought it was wrong. He didn't handle himself right. But, like, he tweeted something about Brock Purdy. Like, welcome to paying a quarterback a lot of money. Like, he's kind of factually right. If Brock Purdy was on the second year of his rookie deal, I don't think the 49ers would be doing this, you know. Now I can't speak, like I said to the Dexter Lawrence situation, but I'm not bothered by Micah Parsons really at all. I understand there's a little NBA feel to him sometimes with the media stuff, but I have a longer leash and I'm a little more liberal with elite talents. If this was a guy not as talented as Micah, like, I would have zero time or support for him. But, like, when you can bend the edge like that, I can deal with some of it. Congrats on the wedding. Got a question for you. Have you decided on a college football team that you'd like to follow more closely because you like what they have or think they can go all the way? I'd like to hear your reasoning. I would say this. I have Marcus Freeman and the Notre Dame Fighting Irish have gained a supporter. I'm very, very interested and fascinated to watch them moving forward because I think in the nil era, it's a big advantage for them. I think, obviously, as it currently stands with their conference situation of not being in one and kind of setting up their own schedule. Marcus Freeman's clearly a student. I like what they got going on and I've, I would say, historically been a Notre Dame hater. And listen, sometimes I just don't like teams and it's like, why don't you like that team? I don't know. I just don't like them. I just. I just have. I just don't like that team. I don't really have any of those in the NFL in college football. I have some of those. Like, I don't like Ohio State. I just like rooting against them, you know, And I would say Notre Dame kind of always fell under that too. And I've kind of pivoted. I actually used to say that about Texas. Like, I just didn't like Texas. Stark's kind of grown on me. Maybe you get a little softer as you get older. I'm a 24 year old die hard Bronco fan. Other than finally making the playoffs last year, we were relevant. Since Super Bowl 50, I believe Bo Nix is that guy. And Sean Payton has done an incredible job turning this team around. Just want to hear your thoughts about Bo and Sean, plus free agent additions Hu Funga, Greenlaw and Evan Ingram. Well, your coach is big time. So you gave him $90 million because he's an elite coach now. He rubbed some people the wrong way. You know, I think, you know the question about Micah Parsons. You know, Sean Payton has a lot of people that can't stand him in the NFL. He's got a massive ego. Some people that don't like him will tell you this guy thinks he invented football. But like, I don't know, most of the best people in their fields usually have a big ego. Now some can be a little more humble in person, but they all believe the same thing inside. Sean just doesn't pretend not to believe it. And I would say one thing, him backing that up immediately with Bo Nix. I mean, a lot of people, let's face it, thought he was insane for drafting Bo Nix in the top 15. Thought it was, you know, almost like an arrogant, like, I can make this guy. I can see things other guys can't. And then you watch Bo Nix as the season went on, he's not a perfect player by any means, but it's going to work. Now is he going to be a top five player? Probably not. But can he just be? If you do a good enough job building the team? Like, look at Jared Goff and Jalen Hurst. Like, you're telling me he can't be some version of like combined of those guys? Like Jared Goff can get rid of the ball very fast and like, Jalen is a good athlete. Now I think Jared Goff is a much better pocket passer and Jalen is a much more like true versatile threat. But like, he can be a version of like those two guys because get rid of the ball fast is important with Sean Payton. And then at the end of the day, sometimes you have to make shit happen. Like Goff can't in terms of if he has to move, he's just, I mean, for, for NFL standards is one of the worst athletes, might be the worst starting quarterback, athlete. Again, these are relative terms to NFL players. But you know, Bo Nicks can, I think Bo Nix, you know, we saw Jimmy Garoppolo have some good years for Kyle Shanahan. You know, Derek Carr had some big time Pro bowl years, I think can be a better version of those guys, but he's with Sean Payton and a well run organization. I'm pretty bullish on them. Hu Funga and Greenlaw. I think the only question is like hufunga one thing to tear your acl. A lot of players have and bounce back. Then he had all these other injuries that I think kind of derailed the Niner situation and they had another guy that they drafted came in and played really well. The Greenlaw thing. I just saw on Instagram that Adam Schefter was on one of the Denver radio shows and said that the 49ers did everything to try to flip him once he agreed to the deal with Denver. So the 49ers desperately wanted to keep him because I would do Greenlaw. Greenlaw is a big time player and I think if Greenlaw gets the opportunity to essentially be the Fred Warner of Denver's defense, if he can stay healthy, I think like he could be a star like make several Pro Bowls, be like second team all Pro. Fascinating to watch. Now if his, if his leg, you know last year clearly overcompensating with the Achilles and pulling hamstrings and it was just tried to come back off the injury. It was tough. So I'm a huge, huge Listen, I love who Fungi and Greenlaw. Those are my type players remind me of the 90s. You come into their space, they are looking to bleep you up. I mean destroy you. They are if you're a Bronco fan. If you're my age, think of like some of the 90s defenses. I mean think of some of the Peyton, the, the Devon Miller defenses with T.J. ward and some of those guys they had back there. They would, they would hit you so hard. That's what these guys will do. Charger fans are losing their mind that Harbaugh and Ortiz are not using the $90 million in cap space during this free agency. I'm on the side of Harbaugh and Ortiz trusting their judgment to build through the draft and develop their own guys and build a sustainable winner. But then the other side is the interior line was a complete dog last year and they had an opportunity to bolster that area during free agency to protect Herbert a little more. Do you think they could have a more balanced approach? You have to remember that Ortiz comes from the Ravens who despite I mean having feels like they've sustained winning for 25 plus years. I know they've had a couple down years here and there but for the most part they have been one of the high end organizations in the league. They're Not a huge splurge team. That's not really their style. If you said, how do you find a guard or a center? They'd go, we'll draft one in the second or the third round and we'll turn that guy into an All Pro, maybe even the fourth round. And what's Jim Harbaugh's background these last eight years? Find guys on the recruiting trail and then develop them. So do I want to spend, I don't know, whatever Aaron Banks got $22 million a year. Do I want to trade for Jonah Jackson, who's making $18 million a year, or do I think I can find the same version as a rookie, 85% of those guys, but makes a million dollars? I think that's the way they look at it. The other thing is, when you have cap space, you don't just need to use it to use it. Right? I mean, they were the fifth seed last year. They were the fifth seed. So it's not. They're not. The Patriots, where they're drafting whatever third overall, which you could also say, or fourth overall. Patriots. Fourth overall is a stupid win at the end of the season from being number one overall. They have no talent like the Chargers have talent. Chargers the fifth seed. So I think everything's going to be okay. Free agency is extremely overrated because you have to pay so much money. I live in Hawaii. We can play golf at Turtle Bay. If this is a vacation destination for you. I've never been a Turtle Bay, but I would love to go. My daughter is getting engaged in Nashville. Is a likely location for her wedding. Can you share the cost of yours? Congrats on the wedding. You know, it's funny, me and Maria were talking about that. It wasn't cheap. Now we also. We didn't have a big wedding, but we, we had a party on Friday night. You know, the, the reception party where every. You know, sometimes I've been to a lot of weddings where you just have like a dinner with the dinner party or the, you know, the, the groomsmen and the, the. All the girls in the maid of honor and. And the bridesmaids. So you just have like a dinner. It's kind of smaller. We basically had. Because it. We didn't have. It was just me and her up there with the, the officiant, Guy Haberman, that we just had a pre. Party on Friday night and everyone was invited. And we essentially rented out a place which for three and a half hours with unlimited booze and food, which will run you 15 to 20 grand. And we essentially did the same thing on Saturday night after the. Where we got married at the hotel and had dinner at the hotel, which, you know, Four Seasons is obviously not cheap, but relative to some of these cities, like, it would have been 3x in New York City or Los Angeles or probably Dallas or some of these places. But we did three hours at the place where we got married and then had the dinner. And then I rented out on Broadway, basically the first building. It's called Acme, the third floor, all to ourselves and a band which cost about, I would say, well over $20,000. But that was like my curveball. You're coming to Nashville for me, Destination wedding. We got a band, open bar. So there are ways, like you could probably have in Nashville, depending on how many people you want to have for 50. 50 grand. I would say if you wanted to blow it up. I mean, that's the thing with weddings. You know, depending on how nice and bougie and what exactly you want to do, you could have hundreds of thousands of dollars. I mean, there are things that I had known nothing about that. Were there candles, flowers, the signage, shit that, like. I don't know. I don't even know what that costs. I just know listening to her talk, I don't think it was cheap, and it was a pain. And there are all these other costs. That's why the thing about wedding, besides just the venue and the booze, which is all I kind of thought about, there are all these extra additives that especially as a guy or as a father, you don't really think about that. Get. You know, you have to rent out, you know, the chairs and the tables and just all this stuff that the flowers and the signage are things that would never cross your mind. Then all of a sudden they're like, oh, this $5,000, this photographer is $4,000. It's easy for everyone to bitch and moan. It's like, what are you paying? Well, would you do it for half that? Would. Would you give your entire day on a Saturday for what You. You would not do that for $20 an hour. So why do you get mad when this other person. I didn't bitch at ever about the costs that people would charge. I mean, at first it's kind of glaring, and then you think about it, it's like, well, these people do for a living. Factor in inflation. So I guess overall, no matter where you're going to get married, Hawaii, Nashville or whatever, you can kind of. There are some controllable costs. You know, how you want to do it. If you're just going to get married and have the party at the venue, you could take 30% off what I spent at the wedding. But a huge key to that is just, you know, do it all in one venue, which is not something I wanted to do. We wanted to mix it up a little bit. You only get married once, ideally. Question for the POD the Bears addressed a lot of offensive line concerns into trades and free agency signings. At this point, I think I trade back and acquire more picks. Not a big fan of drafting a running back, wide receiver or any skill player at this point. I trade back and take the best offensive or defensive lineman available. Thoughts on the move? I I've been pretty adamant when it comes to the bears of pick 10. I would just take the best lineman on the board. Part of trading back. This is going to be a tough draft to trade back in because the differentiation of talent at pick 7 and pick 17 or pick 17 and pick 24 is not going to be viewed very different some years. You know that when the crop is a lot deeper and high end guys are viewed, you know, in the NFL. You know from NFL GMs of like, hey, there are 22 first rounders. I think this draft you're going to find some GMs who say that there are 10 first rounders in this draft. Well, there's still going to be 32 picks. So if I'm the Bears, I would ideally like take a defensive lineman. I think that would be the move. Take a defensive lineman at 10 and take a running back with one of my second day picks. Is there a text chain GMs use or a different type of software to make mass communication about which players a GM is putting up for trade? Yes, it's called Adam Schefter and Ian Rap Sheet. So when you see on Instagram or Twitter, wherever you follow the news that so and so or Diana Rossini, a player is available via trade. A lot of times that is a team telling those guys to put out the bat signal because instead of texting everybody, it's easy to just do that. Or even if a guy requests a trade and sometimes an agent can do this. It's like DK Metcalf has requested a trade or Debo Samuel is requested to trade. You know, sometimes a reporter breaks that. It's basically letting the entire league know because they get that information immediately. So I think the easiest way to tell, let's say I'm just going to use a complete hypothetical. I'm Jonathan Gannon and I'm head coach of the Cardinals and you know what? He's been the opposite of this. But I'm just going to use this guy as an example. Kyler Murray. Kyler Murray is available for trade. I would leak something to Adam Schefter probably, and then immediately the next day I would get 10 plus calls. And just because you get a call doesn't mean that anything's going to happen. But that's, that's how you put out the bat signal. I have a strong feeling that Kyle Shanahan will be on the hot seat soon. There will certainly be some sort of pressure from the fans if things don't start well next year. I don't see the front office wanting him to be done. But do you think there will be pressure this year now that they paid Purdy and this whole IUK situation? I could see an Andy Reid type situation playing out for him the next few years unless things change. I think he means Andy in Philly. I have a hard time with this one. And listen, Kyle can drive me nuts. But you file fire Kyle tomorrow. Who are you hiring that you feel better about? That was the thing with Andy Reid. They finally fired Andy Reid after an awful season. He won four games. So if Kyle has a four win season, yeah, it'd be problem. But let's say Kyle goes 9 and 8, which I still think would be shocking giving these, given the schedule, which is not very good. You're going to fire him for who? Because they did it for Andy Reid and they hired Chip Kelly and then three years later, Dom was escorting Chip Kelly out of the building. Now it ended up working out. Doug a couple years later wins Super Bowl. But where'd they get Doug from Andy Reid. So if they fired Kyle Shanahan, what would they do? Try to hire a Kyle Shanahan, Sean McVeigh guy. Like they're not hiring some like meathead defensive coach. What are you going to do? Hire Robert Sala? Well, then who's going to run the offense? Kyle Shanahan guy. Is Robert Saul any good? I think it's very, very easy to talk about this. You know, Andy Reid was there 14 years. Kyle Shanahan's going into year nine. So I still think it'd have to get really ugly, I think at minimum, unless something like crazy off the field were to happen to Kyle, which I think is pretty unlikely given that he's just a football family guy that I think he's got like three years minimum. Even if things get weird, he's got a lot of time. So the fans obviously can get edgy and get pissed off. But I think he's got a pretty long Runway now. Maybe you go 6 and 11. Maybe you got two more years after the 6 and 11 thing before it even becomes a tangible conversation. But. But I think there's no way possible he's on the hot seat this year. Now if in a couple years they paid Purdy a lot of money and it's a disaster, yeah, I would say everything would be on the table. The other thing is you fire Kyle Shanahan, think how fast he would get hired. The Eagles fired Andy Reid. I don't even think he was on the unemployment line for a week and he had like three options. It's like the Arizona Cardinals, the Chargers, the Chiefs. I think that would be Kyle. And I actually think Kyle would have way more options than even Andy had. I think Kyle, there would be teams that would fire their coach to be interested in hiring Kyle Shanahan or if he would agree to be their coach, they would then just fire the guy that would have the job. And for as like much as he can drive you nuts, never forget the York family. John, Denise, Jed, that'd be his parents. And Jed have hired guys like Michael Singletary, Jim Tomsula, Chip Kelly. After Don throw him out the building. So they haven't exactly had a stellar record beside Kyle Shanahan of hiring coaches. They also told Jim Harbaugh to pack his shit and leave. So I'm hesitant to go. Yeah, just let Jed go. Hire a new coach. You think John lynch is gonna like fire Kyle Shanahan? The only reason I think he'd quit, he'd go work at Amazon. If LSU goes 9 and 4, I think Brian Kelly will get fired. The pressure is on Brian Kelly. Last week in an interview he said that LSU has 26.5 million in nil allocated for the next two years. LSU also is the number one rated transfer portal class this season. Kelly also has a preseason Heisman in favorite in Garrett Nussmeier. If Kelly is fired, do you think LSU could land Deion Sanders as its next head coach? I think Sanders plus LSU would be dynamite. I think if Dion this year wins seven, eight games. So he gets rid of Shador, gets rid of Travis and his team's just good. And again, you went seven, eight games in Colorado. That's pretty impressive. I think if a guy like Brian Kelly, Florida came open, I think he would be really, really high on their list. And I think he would 100% be offered and probably take these SEC jobs. I would say the other thing is when you look at coaches, when they get fired, programs usually go the opposite. And part of Brian Kelly was like this old school tough guy, really by the book, just knows how to run a program. Kind of the opposite of Eddie O. And I think Deion has some Eddie O qualities people like Dion's better. Eddie O won an Actual Championship 2019. Many considered the greatest team of all time. So yes, I would say that Dion would have a very, very good chance if Brian Kelly was fired of. I think he would immediately. I mean, obviously, who knows how things play out but immediately be one of their top targets. Now he couldn't have. I don't think he'd be a top target if he, if he won like five games, which I don't know. I mean, I have no clue what Colorado is going to look like this year. I would bet just because they're recruiting that they're going to be pretty solid. But quarterback play just in general in college football, when you don't have a returning starter, you just never know. Now they recruited. Well, I think they one of the guys that might start as like the five star guy, but who knows? I can't give you like a strong opinion because you felt pretty good. Like hey, if their line of scrimmage got better, they got Shador, they got Travis hunter, they Big 12. They could be a competitive team. And it turns out they were right. But I think anytime, you know, part of Dion as a coach, I mean, has been with Shador as his quarterback. Underrated transition. I mean, and one of the great college talents we've seen in recent memory, Travis. Those are pretty, two pretty big losses. I mean that's, that's pretty important. Travis Hunter never came off the field and Shadora was dynamic. So I don't know. I'm fascinating. I saw Marshall Falk, they hired. They got a lot of former NFL guys. Big year for Dion. He wins 8 games, he's getting an SEC job if he wanted it. I mean, who knows, there might be some shitty programs that offered him. He not interested. But like a Florida, an LSU, a job like that, I think 100%. With the league thinking about the 18th game, I was wondering what you think the best way to determine the game would be. I think picking the equivalent team from the opposite division would create cross conference rivalries. An example being this year the Lions in the NFC north would play the AFC north winner the Ravens or the Rams versus the Chiefs. Interested to hear your take. So right now, the 17th game I'm pretty sure is like an opponent, a rotating opponent from the opposite conference. Right. Where you finished in your division. You know, if you're the Bengals and you finished third in your division and this year the 17th game opponent is the NFC west, you would get matched up with the Arizona Cardinals. So you're saying every single year, if you are the AFC north, you would just match up with the NFC North. So the Bengals would play the packers and the Ravens would play the Lions. Right. And the, you know, in your example, the Chiefs would play the Rams. Yeah, I mean I don't hate it. I do think they would do a rotate. I think they would keep it as a rotating and they would just do the rotating nfc, which I have. I haven't even thought about it, to be honest with you. But I don't know if it really matters. I don't think you could just do something consistent every year because even if you did, I actually don't hate the conference. So basically you rotate the three divisions and you always play your division but in the nfc. So if you're the west, you play the West. If you're the south, you play the South. I get behind that. I think it'd be hard. On top of a better idea than that, you could also do right now, basically your strength of schedule. You typically play two of the four conference teams. So if you're the Chiefs, basically every year the Chiefs are playing the Ravens and the Bills and then they rotate between the other conference. So essentially you play all the teams, all the first place teams in your conference. So yeah, that wouldn't even. I'm thinking out loud. Yeah, I like your idea. I could get behind your idea for sure for the mailbag. Given the resurgence of guys like Darnold, Geno and Baker, it seems to me that talent evaluators, scouts, GMs are doing a good job and it's poor coaching that prevented those guys from having success where they were drafted. Do you generally agree with this or am I simplifying it down? Don't be biased. As a former scout, it is much easier to evaluate. Let's just use this example. If I'm taking my bias out evaluate a player than to coach a player. So like there are going to be more if you just went around the league, I would say solid to above average scouts and guys that if you just let them pick your players, your team would be fine than good coaches like most coaches can't be coordinators, let alone head coaches were most, I would say semi smart ambitious scouts could be College directors, if they really got the opportunity or wanted to be. So it is easier to watch Baker Mayfield and go, he's a good prospect. If you watch him play those years at Oklahoma, he could fucking play. Should he be the first pick? Should it be the seventh pick? Should he be the 15th pick? We can debate that. But no human being could watch Baker Mayfield play at Oklahoma and think he couldn't play. Not a soul. Now, there were some, Remember, there were some maturity and off the field issues, but taking that guy and then building an NFL offense around him is something a scout can't do, a general manager can't do, a pro personnel director can't do. Only a small percentage of coaches can do that. So it's just, it's why these guys make so much money. It's. It's why. Actually, I think a lot of scouts get jealousy is probably the wrong word, but bitter because they got no problem with Andy Reid or, you know, Ben Johnson or Vic Fangio or, you name Kyle Shanahan, Sean McVeigh. These guys that clearly are really good at their job. But a lot of these guys who, if you've just been grinding your whole career, and let's say you're 40 years old, you're my age, and you've been in the league for 15, 18 years, and you make 200 grand, which is a good living, but relative to how much you work, and especially if you're good at your job, and let's say you're like the SEC Scout, let's say you make 250 grand relative to how much you work, and given the expense or the value of the organization in which you work for, in most industries, you'd probably make like 800 grand. A million bucks. But scouts a lot of times are very underpaid. Yet coaches, yet I have, if I, if I work for a team, let's say I got like three or four coaches, I'm like, I don't even think this guy's good. Well, the going rate for a quarterback coach is like 800 grand. So I got this guy making three or four times what I'm making. It's one thing if the guy's good, it's another thing. It's like, yeah, this guy doesn't know what he's doing and we're gonna fire this guy at the end of season. So this, the, the pay scale for scouts and coaches is a little out of whack. Again, a highly paid, a good coach should make the most of anyone in your building. Not a player, but There are probably half the league are guys that you could replace yesterday and not even blink and they're making 2, 3x like scouts that are pretty important. So I'd argue the scouts, a good one, are technically or consistently underpaid. But I would agree with your assessment that it's just harder to coach guys. But there are less good coaches. I guess this is a long winded way. I'm like, he probably feels like I'm trying to stick up for him. But look at Baker Mayfield. When did he thrive? He had a little success with Stefanski and then he went with with Liam Cohen and Canales and had a lot of success. Well, what are those two guys? They're head coaches. Say this for Canales, like by the end of the year you went, God, Bryce Young looks pretty good. Last year Baker threw like 43 touchdowns. Like, I think Liam Cohen knows what he's doing.
- [69:01]
Colleen Witt
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- [70:01]
Jeremy Hobson
Live in a divided country. I am a lifelong Republican with all kinds of different people.
- [70:06]
John Middlekauff
You know, I'm a mother, I'm a grandmother.
- [70:09]
Jeremy Hobson
That's why we started the Middle with Jeremy Hobson. It's about bringing voices not from the extremes, but from the vast middle into the national conversation.
- [70:17]
John Middlekauff
Anna, I'm calling from Las Vegas.
- [70:20]
Jeremy Hobson
Each week we bring together an all star panel. Mark Cuban, so great to have you on the Middle.
- [70:24]
John Middlekauff
Thanks for having me, Jeremy.
- [70:26]
Jeremy Hobson
Neil Degrasse Tyson, welcome to the Middle.
- [70:27]
Colleen Witt
Thanks for having me.
- [70:28]
Jeremy Hobson
And hear from ordinary Americans from all over the country on the most important issues.
- [70:33]
John Middlekauff
Hi, my name is Venkat. I'm calling you from Atlanta, Georgia.
- [70:37]
Jeremy Hobson
And when you subscribe to the Middle, you also get an episode each week called One Thing Trump did that focuses on just one item from the avalanche.
- [70:45]
John Middlekauff
Of news we should be examining what our government spends its money on and are these jobs necessary and what are we doing here? But that doesn't seem to be what we're doing in this situation.
- [70:53]
Jeremy Hobson
Listen to the middle with Jeremy Hobson on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
- [71:06]
John Middlekauff
How would you rank the coaches in the AFC West? Obviously Andy is one, but how would you order the other three coaches? I think you'd have to look at it like this. If I owned a team, would I? And I think you had because you could make the argument for Pete Carroll if this was 10 years ago, because you have to ask their general managers like, is Pete easy to deal with or does he just feel like fun loving and actually kind of difficult? Because I think there might be some of that. But given that it's 2025, I think Pete would have to be last. But we're six, seven years removed where Pete I think could easily be the number two pick in this. So if Pete are fourth, you're in pretty good shape. If I owned a team, who would I hire? Jim's a little quirky. You know, all coaches are a little weird. But you can have conversations with Sean and Andy. I think sometimes Jim can be difficult to conversate with. And if I owned a team, if I'm picking two guys that I know I'm going to win with, I would probably want the guy that's just easier to communicate with on a daily basis. But I. The one thing I do feel like with Sean Payton over, you know, difference of him and Harbaugh, Sean Payton is going to be the boss. So I'm basically like with Andy, Andy, let's Veech pick the players like Sean Payton's picking the players. And it's one thing with a quarterback. No problem if my head coach wants to pick the quarterback. But do I want him picking my D tackle and my. Okay, it's just that's a balance too. So I, I guess I would go Sean Payton, but I, I don't think you go wrong. That's a tough question. I think Pete Carroll just acting like the fourth, that's pretty crazy. Who are you picking? National championship Stetson Bennett or national championship Mac Jones in the NFL, I'm picking Mac Jones. Bar is pretty low though. The one thing with Sean Payton different Jim Harbaugh is like with Jim now Greg Roman's probably not going to get a head coaching job, but like Jesse Minter will. So he's very dependent on who he hires as coordinators. With Sean Payton, I can never lose my offensive coordinator. I can never lose my offensive coordinator is always my head coach. So I think thinking back, like I will, if, if all things are pretty close to being equal, I will take the coach that calls place because that is one thing that I will never have to replace. And if both guys are going to win, that means you're going to lose coaches and they both could lose defensive coordinators to become head coaches. I mean Vance Joseph could easily get another shot if his defense keeps looking like that. But if Gray Roman, he probably have to get fired. That would mean he got fired by both Harbaugh brothers if he did. But I don't know if Jim loves him more than John thought. For the mailbag to add more interest, drama, rivalry to the playoffs, the top seeds get to publicly pick the team they want to play in the playoffs. It would also add more incentive for the lower seeds to beat the higher seeds. This doesn't just apply to the NFL. I think all sports could benefit from this. You know who would never vote for this? The teams. Because if you're the Chiefs, if you're the Eagles, if you're the Lions, think of yourselves as the top seeds. It's easy for the team you're going to play to have a lot of motivation, right? Like when the commanders went into Detroit or when the Rams went into Philly, they were a big underdog. They knew it, they didn't. Don't even have to talk about it. Like no one thought that they could win if I choose you, which is incredible, Like I want to play the Green Bay packers, they're not only the underdog, I just gave them the best, easiest motivation in the history of sports. So I think the good teams and every coach worth their salt should view themselves like my team can be good and we aspire to be there. Would not want that. So if I was an owner or definitely if I was a league office official, I would want it. But I don't think the teams would. Do you think there is one specific factor that leads to most players busting in the NFL? Is there anything that comes up on tape or during face to face meetings that is an instant red flag to you? You know it's funny, is like Solomon Thomas is a guy that is going to be viewed as maybe not a bust because he's going to have a 12 year NFL career, but a guy that never lived up to being drafted third overall. But it wasn't his fault that the 49ers overdrafted him. He did not have the skill set, he wasn't big enough to play just strictly defensive tackle and dominate inside. He wasn't twitchy enough and bendy enough to be a dominant edge rusher. He was kind of just a tweener. And he's developed just a solid role. He plays hard, he's strong, he's good against the run. He gets some just extra effort sacks and that's why he's going to play in the league a long time. But he was overdrafted. If you had drafted a guy like him in the third round you go, we drafted Scott in the third round. He played in the league for 11 years. Like that's a great pick even if he only plays for your team for four or five years. But the reason a guy like him can go, well this guy is not that good. But then all of a sudden you look up, he just plays forever. Because the intangibles are off the charts. And I think the biggest reason guys quote unquote bus is because they don't like football. And not liking football means you don't play that much football. Anyone can get up for a football game. They're fun. There's 70,000 people watching you. There are rah rah speeches before the game. You just the buzz of a stadium. There's nothing like it. You know what sucks? Studying film Tuesday afternoon on your off day. Going to the weight room before practice on a Wednesday when your body still hurts. Putting in that extra film work on Thursday afternoon, four days before the game, doing extra treatment so your body feels well on Friday and Saturday. And the intangible love of the sport because certain guys like if you just play hard, your skill set is so elite. Derek Stingley is one of those guys, has an elite skill set. So if the guy likes the game and takes the coaching, he should be a good player. Now he clearly is all in. He's got good coaching and he's become an excellent player. And then there are some guys whose skill set are kind of average but they overcome it because they just, they give you 100% effort seven days a week. And I think the biggest reason most guys quote unquote busts or aren't good football players. Clearly some guys skill set like he just couldn't separate as a wide receiver. And it's like I can't get open. I can't get open. I think most guys like, I don't know how much they like football because football's really hard. Because unlike basketball and baseball, you don't get to play that often. So Most of the things you do around the game of football don't really have that much to do with putting on full pads and playing against another team. Their practice, they're the weight room, their meetings, their walkthroughs. It's a grind, man. It's why the best players are addicts. They love the sport, they get joy in playing, but they also love grinding and working. Like, when I think of the two best players of my, like, adult life, Brady and Manning, for as great as they were on Sundays, what really defined them was, like, how addicted they were on all the other six days and how much time they spent grinding, film, practicing, going above and beyond. And that's what Drew Brees, that's what made them great players. Right. That's the one thing with Aaron Rodgers. Like, did he love to do it as much as them? I don't know. I mean, I think it's up for debate. So I would say it's usually an intangible characteristic. We will end on this. Dan Patrick interviewed Jon Gruden and asked him several questions about the lawsuit. I've listened to Patrick for a while, and I know he's a legend in sports broadcasting, but I felt he was going after Gruden, especially after Gruden made it clear he was not interested in talking about the lawsuit. I think Dan knew it didn't go well because after the interview he explained that he had to ask those questions. To be fair to me, it didn't come across as being fair. Just thought I'd ask your opinion about your interview philosophy. And if you believe the age of clickbait has changed the intent of asking those questions, coincidentally, your interview with Jay Gruden was one of my favorite episodes ever. Well, I don't do many interviews on this show. I should do more, and I plan on ideally doing more in the off season. But like, Dan Patrick is one of the greatest sports interviewers in the history of society. So when you're an older, like, to me, if you come on my show, when I ask people to come on my show and I've heard a bunch of no's with famous people, I tell them, like, hey, anything you don't want to talk about, I will not talk about. I'm not a big J. I'm not doing journalism here. If there is something going on that, you know, it's something, it's pretty easily avoidable, I'll avoid it. I'm asking you to come on my show. You know, I think Dan is. Comes from just a generation that, like, I Don't view myself as a media guy. I'm just a guy that likes sports. I talk about it. Luckily, a lot of people find entertaining, and we bullshit about football and life here. But, like, I understand you can't have on Jon Gruden and not ask, like, what's your situation with the league if you're Dan Patrick. If I had done Jon Gruden, it would never come up. I don't care. When it plays out, it plays out. Plus, like, Dan Patrick also is not trying to get clickbait. Like, I don't. I mean, you're talking about a guy who's worth millions of dollars. He views it as, like, one of the big stories with Jon Gruden is like, what is your status with the league? For me, it's like, I'd rather just ask him questions about, like, Max Crosby or what he thinks about, like, Justin Herbert. You know, I don't. So I think everyone has a different angle. I think Dan is being a professional, and I think if you wanted to say, like, I'm not a professional, and I would say you're right, I'm not. I'm just running a podcast business here, trying to be entertaining. Dan is, you know, much more of an old professional, I guess. I don't know how else to say it. I. I did watch. I think you're talking about an interview that was probably, I don't know, six. Not even six months ago, but during the season, I don't view sometimes, you know, quote, unquote, clickbaity. I also think clickbait, that is a. That word is misused a lot, especially on, like, Twitter. That was for a generation of writers, because they made their money on, like, if you clicked on my article, and then if I got however many, let's say, 100,000 people that looked at the article, I could sell it for a certain amount. You know, the way that. I mean, if you're either using my gametime promo code or not. Middle Cop, this was a clickbaity what Tweet. Elon's never paid me a penny. There's no. There's no. Never been any such thing as a clickbaity tweet or a. Anything from me. Because to me, a clickbait, I would say, basically is saying that you're trying to make money off whatever someone's clicking on. And I think it gets misused a lot. Like, Dan's just asking him questions like, you're already there watching it. So I just think he's trying to be professional, and some people are big Js and some of us just are not. And I think it's just a different tactic which how we approach everything. So yeah, let the cream rise and go from there. The volume AI is redefining what's possible for your business. With more unique challenges to solve and higher stakes than ever, Microsoft helps you stay ahead. Our trustworthy AI tools and guidance can empower leaders like you to drive greater impact. And with Azure's simplified platform management, we're helping businesses go further, faster, unlocking up to 150% improved output. Whatever challenge comes next, let Microsoft help you keep pushing forward. For more details, visit Microsoft.com challengers this is Nikki Glaser from the Nikki Glaser Podcast. Have you guys seen this new commercial from Stand up to All Hate? It's basically Snoop Dogg and Tom Brady going back and forth with reasons that they hate each other. But then when you really listen to them, the reasons for the hate are just so stupid. I don't know. This this commercial really got me. It's a strong reminder that hate in our country continues to be out of control. So join us at iHeart in standing up to it. If you see hate, speak up. Call it out. Your voice is a powerful tool in this fight. You can learn more by following hat'supwithhate this podcast is brought to you by Travis Matthew Apparel designed for confidence and comfort. No matter where the day takes you. Whether you're hitting the gym, pounding the pavement or dominating the court, your shoe should work as hard as you do. That's where the New Age from Travis Matthew comes in. An all new pure performance active shoe built for ultimate comfort and performance with game changing cushioned foam and a lightweight upper mesh. Keep your feet in perfect comfort no matter the adventure. Upgrade your performance with New Age from Travis Matthew. Visit travismathieu.com for 20% off your first order.
- [85:22]
Jeremy Hobson
We live in a divided country and our media couldn't be more polarizing. That's why we started the Middle with Jeremy Hobson. It's about bringing voices not from the extremes, but from the vast middle into the national conversation. Each week we hear from ordinary Americans from from all over the country. And when you subscribe to the Middle, you also get an episode each week called One Thing Trump did that focuses on just one item from the avalanche of news. Listen to the Middle with Jeremy Hobson on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.