← The Herd with Colin Cowherd
The Herd with Colin Cowherd
3 & Out - WF Head Coach Jake Dickert stops by, Why hate Nico, Rating the upcoming WR class
01:22:23
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- [00:00]
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- [00:30]
Jeremy Hobson
We live in a divided country and our media couldn't be more polarizing. That's why we started the Middle with Jeremy Hobson. It's about bringing voices not from the extremes but from the vast middle into the national conversation. Each week we hear from ordinary Americans from all over the country. And when you subscribe to the Middle, you also get an episode each week called One Thing Trump did that focuses on just one item from the avalanche of news. Listen to the Middle with Jeremy Hobson on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.
- [01:00]
Greg Rosenthal
What's up everyone? It's Greg Rosenthal and I'm teaming up with the King of Spring, Daniel Jeremiah. He requires me to say that we're going to be bringing you 40s and free agents, the only podcast you'll need this NFL draft season. From DJs, mock drafts to my top 101 free agents will have it covered for you with all new episodes every Thursday keeping you up to date as we head to the NFL Draft. Listen to 40s and free agents on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcast.
- [01:31]
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The Volume.
- [01:44]
John Middelkoff
What is going on everybody? How are we doing today? We do something that we don't usually do. We don't have that many guests on this show. Might change in the off season, but we have Coach Dickert who is the head coach of Wake Forest but who coached Cam Ward for two years at Washington State. He was the head coach at Washington State. Cam Ward was there last year. He coached John Mattier who was one of the biggest transfer portal quarterbacks left Washington State to Oklahoma for seven figures. He also was an assistant coach for Wyoming Josh Allen's senior year. So this guy's seen a lot of quarterbacks and we will dive into everything. Nil scouting reports he played Ashton Genty this year. Genti went for about 250 on Washington State and four touchdowns. So we'll talk to him about that as well as some other stuff. And we will also do a big mailbag at John Middelkoff, at John Middlekopf is the Instagram fire in those DMs and get your questions answered here on the show at johnmittlekoff. Instagram, fire in to those dms. Other than that, yeah, fired up for Coach Dickert and some mailbag. And you guys know the drill. Subscribe to the podcast, Spotify, Apple, wherever you may listen, which is basically those two spots. I guess maybe there's some other spot. But make sure you subscribe YouTube as well. You can do a little alert button on the old tube to make sure anytime we get a new video up that it alerts you. So go subscribe to that. And yeah, before we dive into Coach Dicker, you know, I got to tell you about my friends, my partners, and the official ticketing app of this podcast. Do you want to go to a game? Do you want to go? If you're listening to this and your NBA team is in the playoffs, if your NHL team's about to be in the playoffs, if you want to go to a baseball game. My Giants actually have started pretty hot. Somehow they have a better record than the Dodgers, but the Mets are good, the Yankees are good. A lot. A lot of the premium brands in baseball are good. You got concerts going on. Coachella just had a big weekend. Green Day was jamming. They've been, they've been going strong now for about 30 years, I think. What's his name? The lead singers from Oakland. But other than that, any, they got you covered. So any game, any event, you can search by venue, you can search by arena, you can search by team, you can figure it out by price point, where you want to sit, the views from your seat, it does not get any easier. So take the guesswork out of buying tickets. With GameTime down the GameTime app, create an account and use the code John G O h n for $20 off your first purchase terms apply. Again, create an account, Redeem the code JOHM for $20 off down the Gametime app today. Last minute tickets, lowest prices guaranteed. Okay. Very, very excited to be joined by the Wake Forest head coach. And for several years it came from Washington State, where he coached Cam Ward. And we'll get into. He might be a quarterback guru, even though he's a defensive guy, but his roots, wide receiver, offensive guy. Coach Dickard. How you doing, John?
- [04:58]
Coach Dickert
It's a pleasure to be on, you know, obviously exciting time to be here at Wake Forest just getting our program rolling. But it's a crazy time in college football and we're in the best profession you could ever be in.
- [05:10]
John Middelkoff
How's. You know, it's crazy. I was looking, you know, you go to a coach's Wikipedia and I watched some of the interviews you did. I mean, like most people coming up, you had what I saw you say seven jobs in eight years or something crazy. If I would have told you a decade ago that you'd be headed into the 2025 season, you'd be coaching against Bill Belichick, would you have thought you were the coach of the New York Jets?
- [05:32]
Coach Dickert
Well, I was a big Packer fan. Chiefs had growing up. So I would have take that at the. At the least. My goal was to be a math teacher and coach at Kimberly High School. Right. So to be able to swerve into college and to make this climb up. College football, you know, started at Division 3, John. You know, I was the graduate assistant that was painting the lines that was doing the video that was half equipment guy, you know, DB's coach and just gotta. To be around the right people at the right time and work my way all the way up. And I got a unique perspective. Right. There's a thin line between playing at all these levels and I think sometimes the transfer portal shows that now. But at a great place here in Wake Forest and an amazing league in the acc and we're ready to compete.
- [06:14]
John Middelkoff
Do you. You know, you're. Was fair to call you a Midwest guy at heart, coach in Dakotas for a long time and then spent some time on the west coast going to Wake Forest. Obviously it's an incredible opportunity in a big, you know, big conference. Is that just in the landscape of college football now you're at a program that, I mean, I'm from Sacramento area, so the Pac12 grew up going to Memorial Stadium cow games. And that conference disappeared on your watch when you were in it. And you were on the wrong side of that. I mean, because I'm a big believer sometimes in regions with coaches, you know. You know, so this is a pretty big move. But given the opportunity was just something you couldn't say no to.
- [06:55]
Coach Dickert
It's one of those things, John, as you look at the landscape of college football, you know, for the west coast to lose a prestigious west coast league, I still think to this day is still a shame, right? For those kids, for those fans, for regional rivalries, for everything that comes with the pageantry and. And passion of college football. You know, you kind of step Back when this opportunity came up, you start looking at the portal, you start seeing the region of the Pacific Northwest being harder, you know, to get some kids to be able to come there. And, you know, the one double A's, the group of fives, you know, 90% of those leagues are east coast on down the south into Texas, and you got to be where the people are. And I think that's just kind of what this came into. And the more I studied about Wake Forest, the more I discovered they're ready to win. Right. And I think the one thing is that no one expects anything about what we are. We're the winningest program in P4 in the state of North Carolina the last 25 years. We're the only one in the state to win an ACC championship and play in another. Right? So it has been done. I get to stand on a program that has a great foundation, that's committed to winning. And in this region of the country, in North Carolina is a big part of why we're here.
- [08:06]
John Middelkoff
Well, I want to talk a little bit about your background I'm always fascinated by. You were a wide receiver in college, correct?
- [08:15]
Coach Dickert
A D3 wide receiver. I look like a fullback now, John.
- [08:18]
John Middelkoff
It's a tough bridge, but still, your back, your background. The highest level in which you played was offense. But then your coaching career takes off on defense, and you came up and became a head coach, and you're a defensive guy. But your offenses, I mean, at Washington State, you had Cam Ward for a couple of years. I mean, have been fantastic. Is that something? Did you ever look to pivot as your career was taken off, or did you just get so in deep? It was like. It's like a relationship with a lady. It's like, yeah, she just might be the one, and you just let it rip.
- [08:47]
Coach Dickert
Well, I think unique story, like, I played offense. My brother was still on the team. So when I came back to be a ga, our head coach was like, you can't coach on the same side as your brother. So I ended up thinking I was just going to do the defensive thing for a year. The greatest opportunity in my life came as a graduate assistant under Craig Bull, my greatest mentor at North Dakota State. And I learned a system of defense, and I just learned to fit my personality. I'm a math guy. I see things a certain way. You got to be a problem solver as a defensive coach. And I just started to work my way up college football, and I just. I enjoyed it, you know. Yeah, offense is almost too easy, John. Right. But I know when we took over the head job at Washington State, you got to be able to score points, the rules are engaged so the offenses can go out there and win. And quarterback is a premium position. And you know, I got to see Josh Allen's senior year at University of Wyoming when I was there coaching obviously Cam Ward for a couple of years at Washington State. Followed that up by a, you know, really a Heisman campaign of John Mattier there last year where we're at. So we see some really high offenses. And you know why we get to put our stamp on a little bit different because I think we have one of the best players in the country here in Damond Claiborne that no one talks about at running back. So we're going to be able to do it again, just do it in a little bit of different fashion.
- [10:04]
John Middelkoff
Well, I want to talk about that. Fair to say one of your big breaks was getting hired at Wyoming, I think in 2017. A safety coach, that means, you know, you're going up against the offense, especially in training camp and you have Chris Mortensen and had that tweet after the draft to basically keep an eye on Josh Allen. So the hype was there. When you have the job, what was that experience like coaching your DBs every day against Josh Allen, who was probably letting hundred mile an hour fastballs just rip all over Laramie, Wyoming?
- [10:33]
Coach Dickert
It's one of those things, especially in the thin air. I walked out to the first practice and you hear the hype of Josh and obviously what he did the year before. He threw his first field side comeback to the bottom of the numbers and it was unlike anything I've ever seen. A frozen rope, there's no lob to it. And the biggest thing though about John or why I knew he was going to be successful is that just the person he was. He knew he was a first round draft pick. The way he carried himself in the locker room, the leadership abilities Josh possessed was just. And he didn't have the greatest season and scouts would come around and they'd ask, you know, what do you think? I said, guys take him, right? Don't worry about his footwork. He's a playmaker, he's a competitor. He has that it factor in the locker room. And these guys love to play for him. It just, it was different. And to see him go out there and have tons of success in the NFL is like that. That's what it takes is more than just a great arm.
- [11:24]
John Middelkoff
Because one of the knocks, like you said, the stats weren't that great. But you guys had just lost, Right? His number one wide receiver, I think a tight end and maybe a running back or like a lot of his skilled guys from the previous year were gone. A couple of them played in the NFL. So I mean, they were high end guys. It was a pretty big loss.
- [11:38]
Coach Dickert
Yeah. He lost an NFL center, tight end, receiver, tailback. Right. So he carried the shoulder of the load. We were really good defensively and I thought we played well as a team. And we had seven NFL ers on our side of the football. So, I mean, Josh was just a special, unique talent. And it really showed like what it takes to play that position at a premium level. And, you know, he knew it came back in the bowl game. He was going to be a first round pick. A lot of kids wouldn't do that. Right. Just showed his kind of love and passion to play this game.
- [12:07]
John Middelkoff
Did your experience being around Josh impact the recruitment? Because you were the full time head coach by the time you recruited Cam Ward, correct?
- [12:15]
Coach Dickert
Yep. Yeah. And it was a unique situation. We knew we needed to make a change. Cam was the best, obviously, portal target on the market. We hired his head coach as our offensive coordinator. And it was amazing just getting to know him and his family. And if to know Cam is to know his mom and dad. Right. His mom is one of the toughest recruiting moms I've ever been around. Ms. Patrice, she's great. Every time I saw her, she would come up to me and say, coach, you better be coaching Cam hard. You better not be allowing him to just look past some of these mistakes. And I think that's the foundation of the way he grew up. His story, being a Wing T quarterback coming out of high school, only having the one offer, and then coming by us where we weren't established enough on offense, we lost a lot. Right. So he carried the load. He's one of the most competitive people I've ever been around, John. I mean that from the way he carries himself to the way he practices, to the way he attacks things. And I believe he grew up a lot in his two years at Washington State.
- [13:16]
John Middelkoff
Was that the first year of the transfer portal when you landed him? Was that? Technically not, but it was the first.
- [13:21]
Coach Dickert
Kind of big year. You know, there still was only a one time transfer. You know, I think even after, you know, Eric left to go be the head coach at North Texas, you know, he had to stay because he didn't graduate yet. But it was one of the best things that ever happened to him. John is because he now came under coach Arbuckle as the OC at Oklahoma and he had to learn a new drop. He had to be with someone else in the room. I think we just changed a lot of his habits and mechanics and I think he learned going through that process the first 10 practices or so from that first spring in 2023, it was a little sloppy. And then finally when we got everything in sync, you know, you're seeing some of the highlight plays and, and Cam is as good as it gets.
- [14:03]
John Middelkoff
What was your guys connection? I know you were hiring the coach, but how do you from Washington State? I mean I follow football and done this for a living. For Incarnate Word. Like how? Because I remember talking to an assistant GM and he was going to go to the west coast and because Cam had already played two years that he would have been draft eligible. He's like, I'm watching this kid from Incarnate Word. I've never even looked at this program and he's really, really impressive. But it's easy to say now but looking back at the time, how did this even come on your radar and how does that all materialize?
- [14:34]
Coach Dickert
I think just the whole recruiting process is obviously very unique. I mean coaches are tied to players, right? But we also had to share our vision of what he could do at Washington State, which when you look at their hierarchy and their Mount Rushmore quarterbacks just coming off of Minshew Mania and Bledsoe and Ryan Leaf and there's been a great history of a bunch of quarterbacks, you know, Luke Falk is the all time leading passer, you know, so we sold a vision of also an offense that he could come in and continue and enhance. And then my job as the head coach is, hey, my job is to add value, right from a defensive side, a defensive lens, a high performance, you know, mental ability that we needed to get him to, to play at that level. Everything was happening really fast, right. So I think to get his family on board and to know that they supported him, he was going to a region of country. He had no idea about his first time going away from home. So I thought he handled all those little things in a really high fashion.
- [15:31]
John Middelkoff
What would your scouting report be on Cam Ward?
- [15:34]
Coach Dickert
I think the biggest thing, you know, we fielded a lot of, a lot of phone calls because I think we got a unique perspective just based on, you know, we weren't the ones that found him, we weren't the ones that he ended with. It was just kind of that in between session and you Know, I come back, like I said, the competitiveness, right. Like I said, I've seen Josh, I've seen John Mateer see some high level guys. His anticipation in seam throws is unlike anything I've ever seen. His confidence to throw it in any spots and his escapability, right, there's run ability in quarterbacks, there's escapability and creativity. His is off the charts and I think he's learned a lot about that, that, you know, protecting the ball, taking care of those little things is what makes great quarterbacks who they are. But he's going to walk into a locker room and they're going to respect him because of the work, his competitive nature and what he brings to the table. And I think you're going to be able to trust that man. And I think that's an important characteristic. And I believe John is the number one pick in the draft.
- [16:32]
John Middelkoff
Yeah, I think by all accounts he's going to be. So that's your quarterback room for those two years when he was there. John Matiere is now the starting quarterback at Oklahoma. Who was your quarterback last year? You know, Cam Ward, part of it. You saw you landed him and then last year the situation when he kind of dabbled in the draft and then ended up transferring to Miami. Was that a re recruitment process for you or is that one of those financial situations in this modern day college football that a little out of your control at a certain point?
- [17:03]
Coach Dickert
I mean, it was always the plan. If I'm being honest with you, John, I've. We talked to Cam. Him and his family were incredible. I think when you're at that level and you have a starting quarterback for two years, that's what's going to happen. Right? And then obviously John, we felt extremely confident that we had the next guy, you know, and then obviously, as things continue to matriculate, John's top 10 in the Heisman. You know, I think it's a unique story where you just got to continue to plan and know that sometimes these things are going to happen. Right. John Mateer's unique story where he was going to go to Central Arkansas before we offered him. Right. He took a official visit to New Mexico State. Right. But John is one of those guys. His very first fall camp. I'm going home at 10pm I look down on the field in the dark. There's John Mattier rehearsing plays for the next day. Okay. There are secrets to success that ultra high performers leave behind in a trail. And I thought that what makes John, who was completely different player than Cam. That's why he's going to be successful in his own way. Right? The. The competitive nature, how smart he is, how tough he is, how much he can get 105 guys to go, you know, behind him and play for him is super special. So. And then we were about a week away. I was telling you this off air from Landon, Sam Levitt, right. Which had no other offers besides Washington State and was committed to us to a long period of time before Michigan State came in, a week before signing day. So we've had a great run of finding those guys that really can go out in college football and be really.
- [18:32]
John Middelkoff
Successful, you know, forever. If you're not at Ohio State or Texas or whatever. I mean, even Nick Saban was losing coaches all the time. When you hire a coach, I remember Mike Gundy used to talk about this a lot. He was getting so frustrated hiring bigger coaches. So he started going to smaller schools. But then those guys, even after maybe one year, would still get poached. Now you have to worry about not just the offensive coordinator as a defensive guy, but. But also the quarterback. They're going as a package deal. I know the Wake Forest situation kind of materialized, it's fair to say, a little later in the process. Is there a time last season when you're like, how are we going to keep this quarterback? Because you just know the landscape of college football, which five, six years ago, or even when you first got involved at Wyoming, no one taught. It didn't even exist. It was. It almost feels like the 1950s or something, doesn't it? I mean, you've. You've been living in it, but that feels like a long time ago.
- [19:25]
Coach Dickert
It does. I think the biggest thing is as the season kept coming, I think we've done an amazing job as a program that we put a seven figure deal in front of. John, right?
- [19:33]
John Middelkoff
Yeah, that's what I heard. I saw that on the Internet.
- [19:36]
Coach Dickert
That's incredible. And there were so many people that stepped up there. I'm so proud of, like, all that help and those resources, but you got to just like anything else, draw a line. And then I think through the kid, through their family, through their agency, all the things that they have to go through a lot of pressure on these kids. John, right. You start talking about those type of numbers, his loyalty can't imagine us and our organization was high. And I never doubted or questioned John one time. I think we built a tremendous relationship. We still have one. I think those things are really, really important, you know, but you look at Even our time at Washington State, you know, we didn't do so well at the end of the season. And those are the things as a head coach. I learned that the focus needs to be high. You know, these kids are taking in offers, you know, they're getting recruited. Like how do you navigate those things? And I think that's a unique challenge that, you know, I got to find a better way as a head coach to make sure that I can keep everyone focused.
- [20:29]
John Middelkoff
So going through that experience with, you know, multiple quarterbacks, really, when you, when you're interviewing at Wake Forest, how big of a topic is the nil? I know it potentially is going to change, who knows, with the revenue sharing. So it might be somewhat of a moot point, but at least in the, in the immediate. Was that top of mind for you?
- [20:47]
Coach Dickert
Is now the first question. You know, you go through. I mean, I think we had five of the top 100 players or so, 200 players in the portal were our kids at Washington State. So when you find them, when you develop them, you know, when they have no stars and then they turn into these players, you got to have resources to keep them because you have built the relationships that you can stand on and you understand the family. So that's the first question I asked at Wake Forest, are we ready to invest? And it was an overwhelming yes. From a university standpoint, board of regents, standpoint, trustees, boosters, like everyone's ready to be there. And you know, the collective nil piece has been hard for a lot of programs. Right. And you know, I think that's why I'm here also too, because there's a transactional piece that has come into our game. You have to accept it, you have to know why it's great for young people and their families, but you have to stay transformational, right? You have to do it an old school, a relationship way to Understand these are 18 to 23 year old kids that need our mentorship now more than ever. And when you lose that man, our game's going to fall with it, right? So we got to find ways to make sure we preserve the greatest game ever and find ways to make sure we're mentorshiping with these kids the best way.
- [22:07]
John Middelkoff
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- [23:52]
T-Mobile Advertiser
As impressive as your favorite athlete's highlight reel because T Mobile helps keep you connected from the heart of Portland to right where you are on America's largest 5G network switch. Now keep your phone and T Mobile will pay it off up to $800 per line via prepaid card. Visit your local T Mobile location or learn more@t mobile.com keepandswitch up to 4 lines of a virtual prepaid card. Last 15 days qualified unlocked device credit service port in 90 plus days device and eligible carrier and timely redemption. Required card is no cash access and expires in six months.
- [24:22]
Jeremy Hobson
We live in a divided country. I am a lifelong Republican with all kinds of different people.
- [24:27]
John Middelkoff
You know, I'm a mother.
- [24:29]
Coach Dickert
I'm a grandmother.
- [24:30]
Jeremy Hobson
That's why we started the Middle with Jeremy Hobson. It's about bringing voices not not from the extremes, but from the vast middle, into the national conversation.
- [24:38]
Coach Dickert
Anna, I'm calling from Las Vegas.
- [24:41]
Jeremy Hobson
Each week we bring together an All Star panel. Mark Cuban, so great to have you on the Middle.
- [24:45]
John Middelkoff
Thanks for having me.
- [24:46]
Jeremy Hobson
Jeremy, Neil DeGrasse Tyson, welcome to the Middle.
- [24:48]
Coach Dickert
Thanks for having me.
- [24:49]
Jeremy Hobson
And hear from ordinary Americans from all over the country on the most important issues.
- [24:54]
Coach Dickert
Hi, my name is Venkat.
- [24:56]
John Middelkoff
I'm calling you from Atlanta, Georgia.
- [24:58]
Jeremy Hobson
And when you subscribe to the Middle, you also get an episode each tweet called One Thing Trump did that focuses on just one item from the avalanche of news.
- [25:06]
Coach Dickert
We should be examining what our government spends its money on and are these jobs necessary? And what are we doing here? But that doesn't seem to be what we're doing in this situation.
- [25:14]
Jeremy Hobson
Listen to the Middle with Jeremy Hobson on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
- [25:20]
Greg Rosenthal
What's up, everyone? It's Greg Rosenthal, and I'm teaming up with the King of Spring, Daniel Jeremiah. He requires me to say that we're going to be bringing you 40s and free agents, the only podcast you'll need this NFL draft season. From DJs, mock drafts to my top 101, free agents will have it covered for you with all new episodes every Thursday, keeping you up to date as we head to the NFL Draft. Listen to 40s and free agents on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast.
- [25:56]
John Middelkoff
You know, I think about this lot having, you know, worked for Pat Hill and seen at Fresno State and we had so many good players and just going, if this was 20, 25, not 2009 or 10, would they have stayed? I mean, you've been in that world now once the PAC12 kind of dissolved and Washington State and Oregon State got the short end of the stick, which is sad because you know how much they care about football. Can those programs, even Boise, that I think they were pretty outspoken that Ashton Genti, who I definitely would need to ask you about, turn down a lot of money to stay. And I think it's fair to say that's an outlier situation moving forward. But is that kind of going to become the minor league system of college football?
- [26:35]
Coach Dickert
I really think, John, we're in a dangerous place. Right. And I've been a big proponent of keeping the student athlete model as long as we can. Right. I think that's important to our game. But I think now we've gotten to the point where we might need collective bargaining. Right. We might need a certain situation where roster building is the hardest thing you've ever had to do. Now at this level, and especially at the group of five, you know, I would love to see, you know, once you Sign a kid out of high school, that's a three year locked in contract, it's good for the player, it's good for the university. It's just good for everyone to know then. Now as a junior, senior, right, the fourth, fifth year guys, you can take advantage and move, right? I'd love to see, you know, almost a rookie pay scale, right. Those guys coming into your program are slotted at certain levels, right? So you know, as at that level, you know, okay, these are the guys that I'm locked into. These are the guys that potentially could leave and you can at least build a roster, right? There was a point where, you know, you don't know as a any team. I guess we could. At the same time you could lose every running back, every quarterback. It just, you can't plan and that could be twice a year now. So whatever level you're talking about, you know, we need to have a better fixture of like how to build teams. I support the portal, I support, you know, these guys getting rev share like all that things supported. But from a team building, roster building, management, no matter what level you're at, we got to get a better handle on who's doing what, where and how so we can make sure we're building teams the right way.
- [28:08]
John Middelkoff
Do you have a philosophy on the pie of money to go? This is what I think recruits are worth, freshmen are worth relative to transfer guy like, like a Cam Ward in the portal. And if so, did you develop that by talking to people in the NFL to kind of gauge how to kind of balance the economics of this world?
- [28:28]
Coach Dickert
Yeah, I mean we were one of the first at Washington State to go to a GM model. When I got hired in 2022, you could see where the game was going. And our biggest philosophy is you have to pay for production, not potential. Right. That just has to be part of what we do and still stay towards a developmental structure. Right. Find kids at low value, find the traits that you can develop, put them in what I call the slow cooker. Life is in a microwave society. Football players want it now. We got to find the right men that want to develop and then have the resources later in their career to stay. And yeah, every position is a certain, you know, we do it this way, right? You come in at a lower level. Once you're a low volume backup, that's a certain value, high value backup, certain level, low volume starter. High volume starter. And obviously everyone has those exceptions, right. That you need to make sure you're going to the top of the market. So that's how we need to stay. And, you know, obviously the current situation of the quarterback out there shows at times, teams now need to know when to step away. And I think that's the hardest part because you're emotionally attached to these kids, you know, these kids, Right. You've invested a lot in these kids. So I think there's a balance. You know, we've asked a lot of different programs, we've been around some other NFL teams, but their models are different because free agency, they know when kids are up, they know when they can sign them. There isn't two periods that can happen. Right. So there's some things that, you know, even they're like, you know, that doesn't happen in our world.
- [30:00]
John Middelkoff
When you got hired, the portal was open, correct? In the middle of December.
- [30:03]
Coach Dickert
Well, I think the biggest thing is we got in. You know, I was hired December 20th, right around there. So, you know, it's already been open for two weeks. Right. I like to say we came in at the end of the draft. Right. We're trying to find the best value for us, you know, at that time. And I thought we did a really good job of that right now. In this cycle, it's always a little bit different. You know, in Wake four is like, we want to get out of this. We're getting 30 kids a year out of the portal, right? That's just the hand we're dealt. We got to continue to enhance and rise.
- [30:32]
John Middelkoff
Is that what your number was this fall?
- [30:34]
Coach Dickert
Yeah, yeah, 20. You know, 20 and about 20 and 10. 20 in the fall. 10 now. And you know that need, that number needs to be from 5 to 10 and you supplement the positions on your team that you need to go enhance a little bit.
- [30:47]
John Middelkoff
When you get hired and guys on your own team are in the portal, it's obviously a whirlwind. How do you know? It's like you look back. I would have loved to keep that guy. I just had a lot going on. I'm trying to hire coaches almost feels like a predicament that's unsolvable. At the time.
- [31:03]
Coach Dickert
If the NCAA asked me, like, what'd you learn from the transition? I would love to have a 10 day period where your team cannot get in the portal, allow a new coach to get there, to get established and at least be able to meet the team. Okay. We know in today's world, soon as Coach Claassen resigned, you know, every starter on our team was fielding calls just during that uncertainty period. And that's tough, right? And it's just the way it is. I mean everyone can complain about it. I think that's the way college football is structured now. So I would love a 10 day period where just allow for a conversation to happen. Right. And you know, there's no, nothing more important than trying to retain a roster so you can build off it. And you know, it comes with unique challenges. Especially by the time I got hired, every kid was at home. Right. So we had to do that over Zoom and FaceTime. And you know this. You just can't feel the energy of a new staff that way.
- [31:57]
John Middelkoff
Okay, I do want to talk about some of the guys that you've coached against, especially a lot of them are on offense and you're a defensive guy. I don't want to bring up a bad memory, but Ashton Genti, that's a.
- [32:07]
Coach Dickert
Bad memory right there.
- [32:08]
John Middelkoff
John, just, just talk to me because he, he's, he's a hot topic. I mean he looks from Boise State has a chance to go in the top six or seven picks. He had a huge day against you guys and you're a good defense, but I mean in fairness, he did that against everybody. He did that against Oregon, who was the number one team in the country from a game planning perspective. What did you see against him and then what in the game were you blown away by?
- [32:31]
Coach Dickert
We really underestimated his speed. Okay. And I go back to the Oregon tape and you're watching him run away from those guys, you know, and you're just kind of watching it. And his contact balance is elite. Okay. He is about, feels like five, eight, but he is a bowling ball of athleticism and power and speed. So he broke more tackles on us, I think than he did on anybody else, you know, statistically speaking. And it was his contact balance, the way he finishes and when he's out in the open in space, you're not catching him. Right? So it was a unique challenge of trying to find ways and we were in that game and he broke two big fourth quarter, you know, touchdown runs that just put us away. And that's, it's a unique talent. But once again a guy that trusted the process in the year before. I mean you're talking about a backup tailback, right? And for him to burst on the scene, they always knew they had that type of talented player and to kind of see it all the way through. I think it is good for college football.
- [33:27]
John Middelkoff
I mean, Michael Penix, Bo Nix, Travis Hunter Shador. Is it safe to say he was the best player in your three plus years there At Washington State that you went against.
- [33:36]
Coach Dickert
We went against Caleb Williams. I'm trying to think of all the other players.
- [33:40]
John Middelkoff
It was a quarterback Millen at Arizona, I'm sure.
- [33:42]
Coach Dickert
Yeah, I mean I, I would put Caleb Williams up there. Just, I mean and we held him under 300 yards passing and I don't know if anyone did that that year. He was just an incredible talent to, to do it. Genti's right up there, you know, Penix, you know, I still think the offensive line at Washington that year was just phenomenal, you know, all those players. So he's right up there and he deserves everything that's coming his way. And you know, obviously, you know, I know, you know, coach Danielson over there a little bit just speaks to his character and I think all those things put together, you know, he's, he's right up there as far as the toughest people we've had to defend.
- [34:17]
John Middelkoff
Someone asked me about a comp with Cam Ward. Do you think there are some similarities in the way they play with Caleb? Little different body types, but yeah, yeah.
- [34:26]
Coach Dickert
And I think that's the one thing Cam, you know, know we do these scouting deals and everyone after the 22 season was like, hey, we got to get his body in order and he did that. I think the escapability to where off script, you know, defensive coordinators can come in with all these fancy plans, right? This is how we're going to run this coverage. This coverage, this coverage. But when those guys break down and they play off script, there's no defense for that. And I think that's what makes the quarterbacking special. It's the number one thing when we start to dive into taking a quarterback, you know, we make an off script tape. That's what makes you elite. And I think that's why Cam and the Caleb Williams, you know, Penix was a little more pocket passer, NFL ready that way. But that what makes the special player like I grew up on, Brett Favre, right? You're going to take a lot of the good with the bad sometimes. And Cam's that way a little bit because he's the ultimate gunslinger. Like he's going to throw it into some tight spaces, but you need that. You can as a head coach say oh this was terrible and then celebrate him, you know, fourth and six against Oregon, doing a whirling left handed pass, it goes with it. And I think there's a style that he plays that I think is really unique.
- [35:36]
John Middelkoff
Me and Coward were talking about this the other day. You know, you and I are similar ages forever. It was the Carson Palmers, the Manning brothers, the Brady's. You've been now deep in evaluating high school football. If you look at the last three or four years, even Penix was viewed as a pocket quarterback. And then he ran like four, five, two. Same thing with C.J. stroud. It's like the, the. The guy that's six, six that can't move. Does that guy exist in high school football anymore?
- [36:02]
Coach Dickert
He exists. He's out there. But not a lot of people are designing offense for that guy because it's hard, right.
- [36:08]
John Middelkoff
And would you recruit that guy?
- [36:09]
Coach Dickert
We would not. I mean, you have to be able to. We're a big fan, John, of not having the same skill sets in the room. Right. We got a, you know, we signed a kid out of steel pizzella. That's five, ten and a half, ran ten, four in high school. Right. We got Desean Purdy, that's six, five, 225 pounds. He got a rocket arm, right?
- [36:27]
John Middelkoff
Well, why is that? Don't you want a similar skill set historically? Like, you know what?
- [36:31]
Coach Dickert
We really don't, right? Because I think the best coaches design the offense to what they have, right? And the one trait that will always be in there is athleticism to threaten to run, right? That's the one trait, not size, but it's the athleticism to be a dual threat and flatten out the defense. And I think that's the important pieces of what they bring. Like, even Cam. We run Cam a little bit, right? But John Mattier opened up a whole different level of the offense. So you got to be crafty and creative enough to make sure you're designing it about, you know, whatever the best, you know, elite trade is of your quarterback.
- [37:06]
John Middelkoff
What I know you guys played Colorado toward the end of the season two years ago when the team was struggling. Was Travis healthy in that game? Was. He was back.
- [37:16]
Coach Dickert
He was Shador Sanders. You know, he played for about a quarter and a half and then he wasn't out there. And Travis Hunter is a unique skill set. Now. He caught a. He mossed a couple of our guys, you know, back in the end zone and scored a couple touchdowns. He's unique player, obviously a unique competitor, and I'm just excited to see him do it at the next level. I think there's something that's obviously very intriguing and, you know, the best is still in front of him.
- [37:41]
John Middelkoff
Did you think what could be. What he did this year could be done playing all those snaps both ways.
- [37:45]
Coach Dickert
When it first started I was like, this can't continue. Right. You know, and to do it at an elite level, but to be able to focus and develop, I think is hard. I think in my mind, how do you even practice this? Right. So to be able to do that, I think it's so unique and I think it's so good for college football now. Because of that though, I've been asked the question about playing both ways more times. It doesn't happen like that is a once in a generational type talent that can do those type of things. So I'm just excited to see if he can continue that at the next level.
- [38:16]
John Middelkoff
How often over the last couple of years when some of these top quarterbacks are coming out, you know, you're a defensive guy. Do NFL guys pick your brain about Bo Nix or Michael Penix or Shador or obviously your own guys, but the competition, because the way, you know, you're heavily involved in the game plan of stopping and you did a really good job. You know, two years ago I looked at the scores against Oregon and, and against Washington. Washington played in the final. And what was the, what was the score there? 24, 21 or something a couple years ago.
- [38:43]
Coach Dickert
Yeah, you're really laying out.
- [38:44]
John Middelkoff
I'm sorry to bring up bad memories. You won the Apple cup this year.
- [38:47]
Coach Dickert
We had, yeah, we had the ball with three minutes left. I thought Cam was going to go down and lead us to victory. It just didn't.
- [38:52]
John Middelkoff
I was watching.
- [38:53]
Coach Dickert
There's a lot of people that, that ask about it. I thought it was a unique time even in that league. Right. That last year, the PAC12 to have all that type of talented quarterbacks. Yeah, they do that. You know, they kind of, hey, how, how do you see this guy? What's, what's Bo Nix's greatest strength? And the best part is like you said, they're all different skill sets, they're all unique, you know, but I think quarterbacking is something where you got to sit down the guy in the room and you got to be able to understand like what makes that guy tick. Right. And you got to be able to coach him to their strengths and their abilities. So trying to take away their, their best thing that they do is always something that we focused on. Try to make them uncomfortable. Like Penix, we knew if we could actually move his feet, the, the analytics said his completion percentage drops from like 78% down to like 52. So the whole game plan was about getting pressure in his face. And we went out there and I thought executed one play Short credit to Caleb DeBoer. He went for it on 4th and one on his own 27 yard line with the reverse. So it was, it was a hell of a game.
- [39:54]
John Middelkoff
You say analytics. Is it safe to say you're pretty heavy into the numbers in terms of game planning?
- [39:59]
Coach Dickert
It's huge. You know, I think it's one of those things, like you can create an edge for your program by how you use and analyze those things. Okay, so even at Wake Forest, we're talking about, you know, a sports analytical, student driven team, you know, that can take this unprecedented amount of information that we now have, right? You can look up any, split any. You know, because like, take example, like, completion percentage seems like a real thing we all talk about. Okay, well, are you. What do you do with a drop? What do you do with. Hey, running back missed a block and he had to just roll out and throw it away, right? So we look at Josh Allen, he was 56% completion percentage his senior year. That's all anyone wanted to talk about. Well, what is the adjusted completion percentage? What is the down the field, you know, deep ball range? Like, there's a lot of different things that go into an accurate quarterback that one stat doesn't talk about, right? So there's a lot of things that I think we use to our advantage, and I think that's kind of been our ace in the hole of finding some of these things. Like, John, the number one thing we look for in the portal is snaps gained. Right? That's our own little analytic to say, hey, I don't care if you're a Division 3, Division 2 player. If you've played 950,000, 1500 snaps in your career, you understand what it takes to go out there and perform and play. That's relatable to us in the way we metric our organization and how we build a team. You're.
- [41:28]
John Middelkoff
You being inclined to use the metrics, is that something you learn from someone else or is that something that naturally you enjoyed?
- [41:35]
Coach Dickert
Rob Schlager is our general manager and he's the smartest human being I've ever been around. The best kept secret in my opinion, in all of college football, from the biomechanics to the anthropometrics. All these big words that I learned from him that I have no, no idea what they mean. Knee circumference, femur lengths. I mean, there's, there's things that we really, you know, put into our process that matters and why it affects movers and how you see things and what their growth Potential is, you know, we're not going to sign the 6, 6, 305 pound kid. We're going to sign the 6, 6, 245 pound kid and we're going to put the 60 pounds on them. And there's all sorts of metrics that has been proven for us to say, hey, this kid can get there or this kid can't.
- [42:15]
John Middelkoff
You bring him with you from Wazoo?
- [42:18]
Coach Dickert
Yes, yes. And he was a GA for us at Wyoming and like he always knew. He just had a special, just kind of eye for talent and evaluation and you know, we've kind of put our own stamp on things.
- [42:29]
John Middelkoff
I heard you. Sorry to keep you so long. But this. I heard you on an interview talking about the recruiting process where it used to be the assistant coaches were a lot like the scouts for a college program. That's changed a little bit. Is it safe to say that their activity in the recruiting process is probably a little different than it used to be? And now you and the GM work more hand in hand to get these guys because the money factors in. So you don't. Is it completely different than it was five years ago?
- [42:54]
Coach Dickert
Yeah, I like to say recruiting is over. It's player acquisition. Right. And one of the biggest things we change and what we sold on, what we bring to Wake Forest is a scouting department and a vision. Right. So you know, we have the, the gm, the director of player personnel, the head scouts and lead scouts. I wish they had allowed that personnel to leave campus. Right. We're still behind. The NFL doesn't ask their position coach, you know, throughout the year to go scout live games. The scouting group does that. So.
- [43:24]
John Middelkoff
So your GM can't go to a high school game?
- [43:26]
Coach Dickert
No, I mean, they can't. Now you can designate them as one of the 10, but most people have the coaches doing that in the spring and you know, as football is added, we just keep piling it on to the full time staff. Right. So allow a little bit more flexibility, you know, for us in our programs to kind of utilize our personnel, you know, as we see fit. And I do think that would help the lower levels as well.
- [43:48]
John Middelkoff
That feels like a no brainer move that your scouting staff can hit the high school while your coaches stay with your current players. Right.
- [43:54]
Coach Dickert
Yeah. I mean, I think the one thing, even the calendar of major college football needs completely be redone. Let's just take the salary cap. I mean the salary cap for college football runs August to August. Well, we all know the season is January to January as far as like building A team. So there's some unique challenges and all that type of stuff. Right. When your team comes back in January and you might have added 20 portal players and new newcomers, right, that's when the coaches are on the road recruiting high school guys. Right. So there's just a big shift that I think we need to get coaches in the room. The guys that actually go through it. A guy like Craig Bol and Nick Saban and all these coaches heading it up and let's, let's formulate a great future for college football.
- [44:37]
John Middelkoff
Do you feel like at least headed in the right direction or Still a lot of unknown?
- [44:41]
Coach Dickert
I mean this, this is the biggest, I mean we're in the place of biggest unknowns, John. Like until this house settlement is approved and goes through, who knows what's going to happen with collectives and third parties. Roster management's 105. There's more questions than ever. And you know, like I said, we have the best game in all the sport. I believe that the excitement of college football is better than the NFL in my opinion. And we got to preserve what makes it special. And you know, will there be any more retired numbers than college football? I think it's an amazing question. I know there's two at CU going on, but you know, is there going to be those legendary one place high school or college players anymore getting their numbers retired?
- [45:22]
John Middelkoff
And especially because that's where you get these relationships with the people you play with and obviously your coaching staff that when you're 60, 70, 80 years old and I start thinking some of these guys have transferred three times, think how many people they meet. How do you even keep track of that?
- [45:36]
Coach Dickert
Well, you know the old you're going to meet the best man at your wedding. You know, that's going to be harder to find, right?
- [45:43]
John Middelkoff
For sure. Well, coach, best of luck and keep this quarterback train, you know, rolling, you know, because you got a good thing going. Defensive guy, but a quarterback guru.
- [45:53]
Coach Dickert
Well, I appreciate that as a tag. I don't know if I want but we continue to grind through it and excited about the guys we have here as well.
- [46:00]
John Middelkoff
Yeah, good luck the rest of the spring and obviously this fall.
- [46:04]
Coach Dickert
Appreciate you, John. Go Deeks.
- [46:13]
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- [46:44]
Jeremy Hobson
We live in a divided country. I am a lifelong Republican with all kinds of different people.
- [46:50]
John Middelkoff
You know, I'm a mother, I'm a grandmother.
- [46:52]
Jeremy Hobson
That's why we started the Middle with Jeremy Hobson. It's about bringing voices not from the extremes, but from the vast middle into the national conversation.
- [47:01]
Coach Dickert
Anna, I'm calling from Las Vegas.
- [47:03]
Jeremy Hobson
Each week we bring together an all star panel. Mark Cuban, so great to have you on the Middle.
- [47:08]
Coach Dickert
Thanks for having me.
- [47:08]
Jeremy Hobson
Jeremy, Neil DeGrasse Tyson, welcome to the Middle.
- [47:11]
Coach Dickert
Thanks for having me.
- [47:11]
Jeremy Hobson
And here from ordinary Americans from all all over the country on the most important issues.
- [47:16]
Coach Dickert
Hi, my name is Venkat.
- [47:18]
John Middelkoff
I'm calling you from Atlanta, Georgia.
- [47:20]
Jeremy Hobson
And when you subscribe to the Middle, you also get an episode each week called One Thing Trump did that focuses on just one item from the avalanche of news.
- [47:28]
Coach Dickert
We should be examining what our government spends its money on and are these jobs necessary and what are we doing here? But that doesn't seem to be what we're doing in this situation.
- [47:36]
Jeremy Hobson
Listen to the Middle with Jeremy Hobson on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
- [47:42]
Greg Rosenthal
What's up everyone? It's Greg Rosenthal and I'm teaming up with the king of spring, Daniel Jeremiah. He requires me to say that we're going to be bringing you 40s and free agents. The only podcast you'll need this NFL draft season. From DJs mock drafts to my top 101 free agents will have it covered for you with all new episodes every Thursday keeping you up to date as we head to the NFL Draft. Listen to 40s and free agents on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast.
- [48:18]
John Middelkoff
Okay, time for a little mailbag at John Middelkoff. At John Middelkoff is the Instagram fire in those DMs. Get your questions answered here on the show. I don't know why I just did that, but big fan. I don't understand all the hate with Nico. Your analogy about an average guard doing a holdout makes complete sense, but I feel like the hardcore college football fans want this to fail so badly because of the anti nil sentiment. If Jeremiah Smith does a holdout next year, Ohio State shouldn't pay him, question mark. I think that's ridiculous. I think that's ridiculous. As an ASU fan, I know Sam Levitt had some renegotiations this offseason to get more money. He's a Heisman contender. I don't see a problem with that. He didn't hold out, but I bet some stars will hold out eventually. Well, you use Jeremiah Smith. He had an elite season as an elite player. No one has an issue with him wanting a race. I forget the guy's name, but he was a huge recruit. And South Carolina, he's like the. Honestly, he feels a little shiftier. I mean, Clowny went one, but like, he's like this generation's version for South Carolina of Clowney. Elite pass rusher. I remember reading during the season, it was like they had to give him a huge raise. So it didn't become a problem at the, you know, by the time the portal ended at the end of the season, no one had an issue with that kid was elite. No one has a problem paying the Elites elite money. But when you throw one touchdown against good teams and then you want to raise when you're already being paid a premium, I think, you know, I'm not counting the fans because I'm with you. Some people have an issue with nil. Some people just want to see the best players on their own team. I think just someone independent like me. I don't care either way. You can make whatever you want to make. Doesn't matter to me, but I can judge an individual situation. And you know, I know Nico's camp has come out and said it was because the offense he. Before I recorded this, he just committed to UCLA. I'm sorry. Making $2 million in Tennessee with a really, really good team. No state income tax is not only financially beneficial in the, you know, in the sec on a team that was just in the playoffs with a coach that's proven he could win to go to ucla. Now if you just wanted to go home, okay, I, I won't fault you if you wanted to go home. But if this was a business slash football move, it's insanity. There's no way. Not a soul from a football standpoint. And making two plus million dollars at Tennessee, going to ucla where the basketball coach, Mick, never stops bitching, moaning, said that we don't have any money. So I think it's fair to assume that he took a pay decrease. And that's just. I'm just based on the gross number. I'm not even factoring, you know, what he's going to lose. California is going to take. So he lost a lot of money. I think it's fair to guess. Take an educated guess. And from a football standpoint, now, they won four of their last, like, six games. They wouldn't fight. They didn't make a bowl game. Tennessee was in the playoffs playing Ohio State, and I would imagine they were a preseason top 12 team. Now, I did see Urban Meyer come out and say that Tennessee is going to be screwed. Like, who's going to play quarterback? Which I think is. They could have a big downgrade at quarterback. Very true. So I don't know. I think this situation is just messy, but I think from Nico's standpoint, I hope it was his decision and not as, quote, unquote, handlers or his dad or whatever, because they're not the ones playing. It's like when people, you know, I see this a lot in relationships, and a lot of you guys that are my age or older, that have seen people go through divorces, that have seen people just had messy breakups, you know, if you're listening to this in your twenties as you live life, you're going to see a lot of things, but no one, and I mean no one, can understand your relationship. They're not sleeping with the person. They're not spending or living with the person. So it's like it's their life to lead. You know, whether it's parents, whether it's brothers, whether it's friends, everyone can give their opinions and takes on your. On your relationship, whether you should get a divorce, whether you should get married, whether you should break up, whatever it is. It's like, well, two people are in the, you know, driving the bus and riding shotgun. Everyone else is just a bystander. And it's like Nico's family or whoever. It's like, I hope this was the kid's decision, which is a very, very difficult spot to be in at 19, 20, 18 years old. I even saw a headline today. I didn't click on the article, but I think it's fair. Like what the headline I saw, I would imagine Cam was given pretty good advice. Cam Newton was like, you got to be very careful about getting advice because a lot of it can get bad. And it's why you want to be in business if you're going to get an agent or people negotiating your deal with people that know what they're doing. And as a prospect and a revenue generator like he is, you know, the Rosenhaus, the caas, the. I don't think Tom Condon is active as much Ryan Williams that does a lot of dudes like Mogeta. I mean there would be a lot of people that just know what the fuck they're doing. I would want to be in, but. But I also then defend the kid. Like how would he know that? It's just, just messy. It really is. Given your background as a scout for the Eagles, could you shed some standout? You recruited, scouted, you blew your way. Additionally, I'd love to know the key prospects you were directly involved scouting. You know, I think you know a lot of GMs and personnel directors. There's not any guy that's going to get drafted, especially a guy with I would say fifth, sixth round, you know, once you get the seventh undrafted, like is the GM watching those guys? But any guy in the top 150, 200 prospects on your draft board, not only if you do the area, like I only did college one year, I did the west coast. But if I had a player that had a third round grade on them, I bet five other people watched them. The gm, the assistant GM scout that cross checks watching that position and the college director. So by the time you've watched a player and all these rooms are talking about their draft board right now, most players now there is, you know, the longer you do an area, the more you have a feel for guys and your sources and maybe you argue if the entire room hates them, but for the most part you're going to have some people on the guy's side. Let's just say a polarizing player and you know, non like Travis Hunter and some people arguing against them and then you just kind of talk it out. But I think this notion that it's like one guy's idea, it's just not really how it works because so many people, one typically especially bigger schools, like if I run the Eagles and we have Alabama or Ohio State or whoever has a lot of prospects, Michigan last year, you're going to have multiple human beings go through the program during the fall. So you have multiple sets of eyes that write the group up and then on top of your decision makers all watching the guy and then you factor in the coaching staff. So I think this notion of like diamonds in the rough, that died when this little thing called the Internet started, like there's no the diamond in the rough does not exist because everyone knows who everybody is. And now there might be people in a draft room that don't agree with the player. Right. I think this guy's better than you do. But that probably happens all the time. I was more active in terms of fighting for Andrew Sandejo. That's my claim to fame. I knew Andrew Sindejo could play. Played in the league for like 10 years. He's playing in the UFL. We didn't even have a write up in the system on him from Rice and Lewis. Riddick told me he sucked whenever I see him. We still make fun of him for that one. Just played for Mike Zimmer. Vikings, Cowboys, for a long time. Big hitter. But in terms of like draft guys, like, yeah, I love Zach Ertz. Everyone's like, yeah, so do I. Was like, I don't think Matt Barkley is that good. Neither do we. So now if the decision maker disagrees with you, it doesn't matter. But I think this notion that like one guy's pounding the table nowadays now I guess they're, you know, the Eagles, we had a pretty big scouting department. Some scouting departments are smaller. Do you think it would be a smart move for the 49ers to trade Purdy to the Steelers for TJ Watt? Then the Niners would draft Sanders with their first round pick. Shador seems like the type of quarterback that Kyle would like. Very accurate and cheap. Plus TJ and Nick Bosa. Maybe you're alluding to TJ saying the Deuces. I, I can't do that. As awesome it was a would be to have those two guys coming off the edge, this notion. And I've seen you're not the first person to ask some version of this. If everyone knew Shador Sanders was going to be as good as Brock Purdy, there is absolutely no way the Cleveland Browns would pass on Shador Sanders and definitely the giants would not. Zero chance. So both those two teams, he would never make it past three. But no one knows that, including the 49ers. So you can't take the risk of like, what if he's not as good? Not even remotely as good. Which it's kind of the bird in the hand thing. Now there are variables. You have to pay the guy, but like regardless of the financial situation, you just know you can win games with them. You do not know that with even Cam Ward, any of these quarterbacks in this draft. So I think there's a big element to that there. What is to become of the running back market? Ashton Genti can probably go to the transfer portal, Oregon, Texas, Ohio state and make $10 million. I don't know if he can make that much. But I hear what you're saying and be more Valuable to a college team than an NFL team. Najee Harris, first round pick, only made $10 million for his rookie contract for 1,000 yard seasons. And most running backs aren't making it on their third to a third contract anyways. I think you're a little bold with your, with your numbers. You know, I think the highest paid players in college football right now are making like two or three million dollars. Nico is one of them and they're quarterbacks. So if you could make $10 million for one season then I think you would go to Ohio State and do that in a heartbeat, no brainer. I think that's like Cooper flag money, Caleb Williams money. So it's pretty rare now. It doesn't mean we can't get there. Najee Harris was a late first round pick. Not only do you make $10 million through his first four years, I think he just, I don't know what the guarantee was but. So I could be speaking out of turn because I saw like $9 million. But if the guarantee is less than that. But yeah, I mean I, I don't know what to tell you. I don't think, I think Blake Corum is a good example. Two years ago he stayed when he could have came out and he stayed for money and because it's like, well, I'm going to go on the second day of the draft, but if you're going to pay me $2 million, then it's a no brainer to stay. I think your numbers got so big they don't even need to be that big. Who is the one athlete you would choose to have a one on one dinner with and why? How would you react if said athlete is a complete asshole to the waiter serving y'all? That's a good question. I could, I could take two approaches here. I could be like, I'll go Peyton Manning, you know, we'll just talk life, we'll talk business, we'll talk football, try to become friends with them. Or I would take like Patrick Mahomes or Josh Allen and try to develop and cultivate a relationship. So like they come on the podcast all the time and it'd be incredible for my business. So from a business standpoint, it would probably be the right move to take. I mean probably like Patrick Mahomes, Josh Allen, Lamar Jackson, one of the top quarterbacks in the league, Dak Prescott, I mean just on a sure numbers basis, if Dak Prescott is going to be the starting quarterback for the Cowboys for the next several years, going to dinner with Dak Prescott Become buddies with them. And having him come on my podcast all the time would be incredible for business. Brock purdy, same thing. 49ers, Jordan Love. I mean any of these quarterbacks and big brands would be so. I mean I. From a business standpoint, I would be crazy not to do that. From just a personal standpoint, not that Peyton would be bad for business, but in terms of guys playing on a weekly basis of like they came on my show every Tuesday, that'd be a no brainer. I'd probably choose Peyton over Tom. I think you asshole. To the waiter. I just, I have a hard time seeing that with most of these guys, but it's pretty big turn off. I mean unless the waiters like I'll say one thing, and we went out to dinner last week in Scottsdale and one and I've eaten out a lot I would say in my couple years living in this area. They charge you. And this is like most bigger cities, I guess. The restaurant scene is so over. It's just, it just costs an arm and a leg for, for the most places. I mean there are mastros, some certain steakhouses that are just pretty elite. But most places, I would say the food is very hit or miss. The service here sucks. I mean sucks for what they're charging you now. Is that a product of not enough people working? Is it just a product of people not being good at their job? I don't know. I don't work in the service industry, but are you allowed to be rude if it is really, really poor? Now if someone's just overwhelmed, it's not their fault. Totally understand. But it would depend on the context. If you're just being a dick to be a dick, then yeah, I'd be out on you. What do you think about this year's wide receiver class? I know it doesn't have the top end talent like Marvin Harrison and jsn, but I do think it's got a lot of guys that are immediately plug and play starters. I do believe that this class has quite a bit of depth from programs. For example, I'm a Missouri fan, Luther Burton. I've seen him play in person for multiple years and I think there's a chance he's a real star. I don't understand why he's falling in the mocks. I do think there are some question marks. I'll just leave it at that. I think there are just question marks. And sometimes when you see a guy fall, you know the people, especially people that are dialed in, you know, DJ Matt Miller, Todd McShay. Guys that, like, do this for a living, like, mock the draft, mock drafts. They're talking to a lot of people in the league. And when they just start telling you things that, you know, it's not really DJ style to come out and just say what's really going on about a player. And I'm not using this as an example for Luther, but, like, that's usually why guys fall. And then there's sometimes just simple as, like, yeah, we don't think he's as fast or whatever. Because I'm with you. I watched him play a lot the last couple years. You guys were good. He was good, I think, last year. I mean, Malik Neighbors, pretty elite prospect. Rome's pretty damn good. Marvin Harrison is, like, underwhelming, and he's pretty good based on one season. Not all his fault. But if you could redo the draft, I mean, you're taking Malik Neighbors over Marvin Harrison. We've just had pretty good wide receiver drafts over the last several years. I mean, really good wide receiver drafts. So I think there are a lot of question marks with this crew, right? Travis Hunter is like this hybrid player, so it's like, is he even a wide receiver? I don't know. McMillan. I think there are some question marks with just overall speed, you know, guys like him. I think there hasn't been a wide receiver drafted in the top 10 or 12 that ran as slow as him since Mike Evans. Now, Mike Evans a Hall of Famer, but like, it shows you, there's a little bit of an outlier. And sometimes when you run in the four fives or four sixes, even if you dominate in college, you get discriminated against. Now, I've seen a lot of guys, Keenan Allen, Devonte Adams, not Blazers elite players, you know, in the prime of their career. So I think you got to be careful about that. But those guys went in the second round. And I think historically, I mean, just look at recent memory. Some of the best wide receivers, some of the highest paid wide receivers have not been first round picks. Now, some of them have been, right, Jamar chase, Justin Jefferson, CD Lamb. But there's also that crew of like, AJ Brown, DK Metcalf. So Terry McLaurin was not a first round pick.
- [66:03]
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- [66:35]
Jeremy Hobson
We live in a divided country. I am a lifelong Republican with all kinds of different people.
- [66:41]
John Middelkoff
You know, I'm a mother, I'm a grandmother.
- [66:43]
Jeremy Hobson
That's why we started the Middle with Jeremy Hobson. It's about bringing voices not from the extremes, but from the vast middle into the national conversation.
- [66:51]
Coach Dickert
Anna, I'm calling from Las Vegas.
- [66:54]
Jeremy Hobson
Each week we bring together an all star panel. Mark Cuban, so great to have you on the Middle.
- [66:59]
Coach Dickert
Thanks for having me.
- [66:59]
Jeremy Hobson
Jeremy Neil DeGrasse Tyson, welcome to the Middle.
- [67:02]
Coach Dickert
Thanks for having me.
- [67:02]
Jeremy Hobson
And hear from ordinary Americans from all over the country on the most important issues.
- [67:07]
Coach Dickert
Hi, my name is Venkat.
- [67:09]
John Middelkoff
I'm calling you from Atlanta, Georgia.
- [67:11]
Jeremy Hobson
And when you subscribe to the Middle, you also get an episode each week called One Thing Trump did that focuses on just one item from the avalanche of news.
- [67:19]
Coach Dickert
We should be examining what our government spends its money on and are these jobs necessary and what are we doing here? But that doesn't seem to be what we're doing in this situation.
- [67:27]
Jeremy Hobson
Listen to the Middle with Jeremy Hobson on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
- [67:33]
Greg Rosenthal
What's up everyone? It's Greg Rosenthal and I'm teaming up with the King of Spring, Daniel Jeremiah. He requires me to say that we're going to be bringing you 40s and free agents. The only podcast you'll need this NFL draft season. From DJs mock drafts to my top 101 free agents will have it covered for you with all new episodes every Thursday keeping you up to date as we head to the NFL Draft. Listen to 40s and free agents on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast.
- [68:09]
John Middelkoff
Die hard Ravens fan, what moves do you see us making this offseason? Not exactly sure on our cap space off the top of my head usually don't have much. Me personally would love to send maybe a first, maybe two first maybe to Cleveland, but they never give. No, you're not getting miles. Like the thing is in basketball and baseball I can trade a guy whenever because their contract is going to pay by as you go in the NFL with signing bonuses. Like once I give a guy a Huge contract. It's very, very difficult to trade the guy and even be willing to trade him. So I think with the Ravens, honestly, you guys have been good enough the last couple of years to win a Super Bowl. It really hasn't been a roster thing. You know, Derek Henry's a little older now. I mean, you signed him last year. He was old. I wouldn't be shocked at all if you draft a running back. And I would say the first three rounds, you can never have enough offensive linemen. You know, defensive line. I mean, I just think you guys are kind of meat and potatoes. But last year you drafted Wiggins, the corner from Clemson. He's. He looks like he's pretty good. Humphrey's getting up there a little bit in age. A lot of wear and tear on those tires, but he's still a really good player. I mean, once they bumped him into the slot last year, Hamilton, you got Roquan. I mean, you got good team. I don't know. Take the best players. What do you need? Just more sweet players. I mean, Lamar, not to turn the ball over in the playoffs. I've been a Steeler fan my entire life and watched the peak of Ben Roethlisberger, and even in the years of decline, they never had a contingency plan. Why do you think Tomlin and the Steelers front office are so tone deaf with the quarterback position? I actually really don't think they are. I just think you find yourself, and I use this analogy with the Chiefs and tackles. When you draft late, what are you supposed to do? Listen, I didn't like the Kenny Pickett pick, but they did try. They took a guy with the 20th overall pick. It backfired and he's not even on the team. Hell, he's on his. However many teams he's been, the Steelers, the Eagles, now he's on the. He's on his third team and whatever. Three years, but four years they tried, so I can't say they never tried. They did that. They drafted Mason Rudolph around and he get drafted the third. Last year they brought in those two guys. Now, granted, they were both cheap, but still they tried. Neither of them worked. Right now they're sniffing around Aaron Rodgers. I don't really. I would imagine they draft another guy this year. I give him more effort credit than you do. I was listening to a recent episode debating the top corners in the league. Why doesn't Christian Gonzalez get thrown into the mix? He missed a chunk of his rookie season, but almost immediately was a lockdown corner. Improved that again in a Second year. Interested to hear your thoughts. I think you guys have been really shitty. So when you've been that bad, what you have the fourth pick this year. You had the third pick last year. I mean your games have been unwatchable now for two years. Belichick's year and Gerard Mayo's year. Like as a consumer I love football. I do it for a living. After a couple of weeks I don't need to watch you play football. And the only times like I'm watching you of like okay, you're playing Josh Allen and the Bills, it's like what's the point of this game, right? Or Aaron Rodgers game, which I think you guys did win, which was cool. Did you guys beat the jets last year? Yeah, you did right On a walk off touchdown, I think or basically a walk off touchdown. Drove the field, watched that game. But we're not consuming you, right? So like last year Stingley became a star. Why the team was good. They've been a playoff team two years in a row. Patrick certain, how did he kind of take a huge jump was team last year was the playoff team. So I think a huge part of becoming a quote unquote sexy name or whatever or talked about player in the NFL it's really hard unless you're a rookie in like set some records, you're drafting the top five back to back years. We're just, we're not going to be as dialed into you. It's much easier to watch Steph Curry and LeBron than it is to watch like the Hawks. Anyone you like offense or defensive Rookie of the year fantasy picks for rookies. By the way, got any promos for draftkings and games? Of course. John Johen, baby. I think to make those predictions you kind of got to see where guys go. I mean one thing we've learned the last couple years who you are playing with as a either running back or like if I tell you the Chargers draft a running back in the first round, I would say I would probably like that guy to have a chance to be the offensive rookie of the year. Right. If you, if you tell me Denver, the Chargers draft a running back really high, I'm kind of going to like it. Right? So yeah, I think the fit for now defensive rookie of the year. You know if Abdul Carter goes to the Giants, I mean is he going to be, I don't know. Trying to think. Yeah, I think you just got to see where guys end up. Big fan from Canada. Always feel like Drew Brees is one of the most underrated and underappreciated athletes in sports. After being on the wrong side of some of the most iconic playoff games such as the Minneapolis Miracle, the no call, the Beast Quake, the Vernon Davis, the grab game. Do you think if a handful of these games ended differently and we would have a much different opinion of them? It always said that it was Brady in the Manning era, but I feel like it undervalues breeze just because the Saints defense made Sam Bradford look like the next great quarterback. It's a pretty good question I would say. I mean if a couple goes away, I mean the one what if he wins super bowl right? The one the past interference the Jared Goff year. What if they went and they beat the Patriots? It's not like the Patriots were world beaters that year. They. They beat the Rams what 13 to 3. So it's fair to say they were beatable in that game. I would say yeah. I mean part of it is like if Drew, if I told you Drew Brees won two Super Bowls and went to another, I think we would look at him a little differently for sure. And that's part of the way sports works. Like it's easy to make fun of James Harden. If James Harden was a two time champion and it's in an NBA Finals mvp, no one would say anything. Which non player do you think contributed the most to Washington success last season? I think you'd have to say the head coach. I mean Adam Peters picked Jaden Daniels but I think it's fair to say that everyone was on board there and I think Adam's a stud but their team and I would imagine Adam would say this like last year their roster on paper was not NFC championship roster. So Dan Quinn getting those guys to believe the toughness factor just a well rounded like operation. It's felt like for decades Washington was just kind of clueless and part of I mean a huge reason their owner was always acting, you know Bruce Allen, they always had too many cooks in the kitchen and it just feels like they're just a normal organization. They got a good gm, they got a coach that knows what he's doing. So I'd probably lean Dan Quinn, you said you're currently a 5 handicaps 5 handicap. Describe the strengths and your weaknesses of your golf game. Things you need to work on. Also where do you play in Arizona in the summer? Assuming Arizona is too hot, it's the best time to play. I mean if it's 115 it's difficult to play but if it's 108 110. Got the course yourself. I can play 18 holes in two hours. Strength of my golf game. I'm a ball striker. Weakness anything around the green. Putting worst putter in America. There is not a worse putter in America than your boy. It doesn't get any worse. I've changed putters. It doesn't matter. I'm just not a good putter. So I can play like a shoot up 74 and I can putt like 100. And that's why I end up shooting in the low 80s. Putting terrible. I would play golf in the heat any day over the cold. Should the Vikings take a page out of the Eagles book and extend Addison early use? The fifth year thought process is based on McCarthy being the guy and capitalizing on his rookie deal. Yeah, not a bad idea at all. I mean he's probably gonna get suspended, right for that, that DUI situation from last year. But he's a player, so I never against extending good players. Now he's not going to be cheap. So you have I guess Jamar is now technically the highest paid player, but one of the highest paid non quarterbacks in the league at that position. So are you going to also pay Addison? It's like you're getting Addison for $50 million. I mean it's probably going to cost you 80, $90 million guaranteed. You're basically just taking the approach approach of the Bengals, I guess. Which I can't fault you. I mean you drafted these two guys, so. Yeah, I mean I never against it now you'd have to. I'd have to see the number. You could argue. Just let it play out because you drafted it. Jordan Addison. What pick? Forget off top of my head. 21, 24, 25. Somewhere in there. So he's relatively cheap. I just played out another year. I'm so sick of Packer fans just being good. I'm a lifelong Packer fan and I'm so sick of just being good. My eyes don't really work anymore. It's fine every year with being in quote unquote the hunt, but damn, why won't the front office ever go get a big time playmaker? We've won two Super Bowls in my life and every year it's the same thing. We're building for the future. Well, last year they need a veteran voice in the wide receiver room and I think it showed at the end of the year. What's your opinion on why the packers don't do shit every year? It's a good question. You know, cowards always had the Theory, and I think he's probably onto something. Is not having an owner is like a blessing and a curse. Not having an owner is incredible because for whatever reason you have just had very, very capable. From Ron Wolf, who's obviously a hall of Famer, to Ted Thompson to now, to Gouda kins. Like, these guys are good, right? But there's not someone hanging over them with billions of dollars in a bank account, huge ego, and just like going to country clubs where his friends are asking him, like, what's the deal with your, with your team, right? What's going on? Seeing them at yacht parties. So there's not as much urgency and pressure as when you're just working for one of these super rich, especially the older super rich guys. So like, they can just kind of slow and steady wins the race and they feel the least likely to ever just. Here's two first round picks for Miles Garrett, right? But if I told you Andy Reid had traded for Miles Garrett, you'd be like, yeah, totally see it. Or Howie Roseman traded for Max Crosby, like, totally. If I told you the packers had traded for Max Crosby, you'd have to do a double take. You're like, no way. Now, obviously those players weren't available, but even like DK Metcalf, like, and again, I'm not. They to me, make more sense than the Steelers, but they would never do that. That's just not what they do. And you could argue, like, why not? Why not take some big swings and they just don't. And I do think that's because there's not someone truly looking over their shoulder. I know Mike Murphy's retiring, but it's just not the same. It's not his money, it's the franchise's money, shareholders, which I'm still always a little confused how that works, but clearly there's not a guy that. That owns the team outright. I can't wait for Genti to be a star and for you to shut the fuck up. It's funny, all I do is just wonder. The draft is an economic exercise. So, like, Saquon Barkley went number two overall. Saquon Barkley is a Hall of Fame talent. No one would argue that. Was it the right pick for the giants? No. Christian McCaffrey went eighth overall to the Carolina Panthers. Was that the right pick for them? Like, I love Austin Ashton Genti. I was. I fall. I stayed up late on Saturday to watch him countless times play in kind of meaningless Mountain west games. He is a fantastic and elite player, but saying like, yeah, I would draft a lineman at six and then take a running back in the second or third round is not a shot at him. It's just basic football economics. And one thing, this clip I did with Coward the other day, I don't want to say went viral, but it just got put on a reel and hundreds thousand people watching people are commenting on it and people are like, this guy's an idiot. What about Jameer Gibbs? He's. Because one thing is like a 5, 8 running back. People like, Barry Sanders is short. So we're comparing to Barry Sanders. Like, that's. So it's like, okay, if he becomes Barry Sanders, what's the likelihood of that? Like, if Cam Ward, if he becomes Patrick Mahomes, like, well, yeah, no shit. You know, that's not how this works. Guess what? I've been alive for 40 years. You know how many Barry Sanders I've seen? One. So, like Jameer Gibbs, he's five, nine. Well, yeah. I would take Ashton Genty and Tyler Warren because that's what the Lions got with Jameer Gibbs. They traded from 6 to 12 and they got picked 37 and they got a tight end whose name Sam Laporta to go with Jameer Gibbs, who again ran a 4, 3, 5. Now maybe Ashen Genty is a 435 guy. If you told me that he had ran his 40 and ran a 4, 3, 5, I would be more bullish on the draft pick at 12. If you told me like, pick 12, 13. I'm not against it. I just think when we're talking about like pick 5, 6, 7 seems a little extreme to me. In a class loaded with running backs, you can get like a starter in the second or third round and take my starting left tackle or defensive lineman in the first round. That's all I've been talking about. Not that, like, this guy sucks. I've never said that. One time. He's a really good player, awesome player. But we've seen three guys get drafted in recent memory in the top eight. And it's been a bumpy ride for the teams that drafted that guy, even though we know they're all sweet Saquon with the Giants. Bijan Robinson is an elite talent. It's like, yeah, it's like not working out perfectly. McCaffrey's on the Niners. I've noticed that over the last year or so, podcasters and other sports analysts are wanting to talk more politics or about their spiritual beliefs. Why do you think that is? I understand that it's their show and they can talk about whatever they want. I know personally I'm more likely to tune in less frequently if they do. This is not specifically about Stephen A. Thinking about running for president. What is your take? Stephen A. Running for president. I do think it's a pretty genius business move for him just saying this, constantly driving more people to his show. I'm sure they just paid him $100 million. So people can make fun of him all you want. And listen, I don't watch First Take, but his business, I mean, he just got paid $100 million by Disney to basically talk about LeBron James. That's what that show is too. I noticed this whenever I'm at. The only time I ever see it is I'm at the gym and one of the main TVs has just ESPN on. So if you go in the morning, first takes is on. Everything is about LeBron James. I mean, I do, I'm not a LeBron James guy and I fucking hate the Lakers. I do understand him just being like, these people talk about me nonstop. Ovechkin breaks the Record and there was a topic like what Ovechkin's record breaking goal means for LeBron James's legacy. Or it was like, this is insane. But I think, I think people in quote unquote, sports media spend a lot of time on Twitter. Like relative to the average person that just has a Twitter account. I would say that the majority of people, and I would say political media as well, people that quote unquote in the media spend a large portion of their Internet going on Twitter. And if you live on Twitter, it can make you feel that like this is all everyone's talking about, non stop, right? Sometimes, like you're watching a Super bowl or a playoff game or whatever the Masters, it's like clear a lot of people are probably paying attention to this, have opinions on it. But I think on a daily basis, if you live in that world, it can kind of convolute your thinking of how aggressively people want to talk about something. And I, I think their percentage of the pie chart relative to just some dude that like sells insurance or the my, the electrician that just came over to my house to fix some screwed up things in my wiring and just, I don't know, normal everyday people that aren't in the media that have just jobs don't spend that much time and aren't inundated with these thoughts. So when you hear these people that, let's face it all like the majority of sports media all lean heavily to one side. So they see their peer group all agreeing with what they're saying. Did I think they have a. I just. I'm with you. I don't think most people, like are in the mood. I think one thing that people screw up and I think Twitter has made most of these people, it's hurt their ability to just, I don't know, look at something through the lens of not trying to. I think groupthink definitely creeps in when you spend a lot of time on that app because you're afraid to go outside of the box, which, let's face it, most successful people kind of push the envelope in any industry. And that used to be a huge part of media. The most successful people in the space and still to this day get crushed on Twitter. Right. And I think, honestly, I think that has a huge, huge problem for people, I guess, quote unquote, podcasters in terms of talking about politics. STEPHEN A. I mean, there's a lot of money in politics. So if you just want to talk about it, I guess if you're using him as an example from a spiritual standpoint, I'm not quite sure I follow on that one. I listen to a decent amount of sports stuff and don't hear it that often, but maybe we're just listening to different stuff. But I think think people just being too online. I mean, I really believe that it's like, guys, you guys gotta get fucking get to the real world every once in a while. And I think it can. It definitely started the downfall of like, of radio. Sports talk radio is like 10 years ago, a lot of people just thought things that were big on Twitter were what people wanted to hear driving around their car and just not a fact. Now some things are right if they're. If Adam Schefter tweets, I don't know. Derek Carr has been traded to the Pittsburgh Steelers. Well, yeah, I mean, let's talk about that. But on an everyday topic and responding, the laziest thing is like, well, this is what people are saying. What? Because you saw like three comments. Now, don't get me wrong, I like scrolling comments on Instagram or whatever as much as the next guy. But to think that that is the subset or represents human beings, I think you got to be very careful doing that. And I think a lot of people make that mistake. And it's why there's only a small percentage of people having success on a lot of these platforms and definitely would success making any money because people tune off. And to me, I'm with you it's like, but I just wanted to hear your take on, like, the warriors game last night. And you're like, going on some whatever about whatever, like, I don't care. And one, like, this is entertainment. And listen, obviously there are crossovers of this, but I do think people lose sight of that, of the entertainment factor. Like, this is a release. Like, our lives are stressful. There's a lot going on, no matter what you're doing, whether it's your children, whether it's your relationship, whether it's the bills you have to pay. I mean, the stress of, like, dude comes over to my house, I need a new circuit breaker. I'm like, it's how much? And then just. It's just like, geez. So the last thing I want to do if I'm about to take my dog on a walk is list some guy ranting and raving pissed off when I don't even believe that he's pissed off. It's like, I just think you're doing this, like, performative art that I think you have a false sense of how many people even enjoy this shit. But other than that. Ashton Genty. I'm a hater.
- [89:46]
Coach Dickert
The volume.
- [89:50]
Jeremy Hobson
We live in a divided country, and our media couldn't be more polarizing. That's why we started the Middle with Jeremy Hobson. It's about bringing voices not from the extremes, but from the vast middle into the national conversation. Each week, we hear from ordinary Americans from all over the country. And when you subscribe to the Middle, you also get an episode each week called One Thing Trump did that focuses on just one item from the avalanche of news. Listen to the Middle with Jeremy Hobson on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
- [90:21]
Greg Rosenthal
What's up, everyone? It's Greg Rosenthal, and I'm teaming up with the King of Spring, Daniel Jeremiah. He requires me to say that we're going to be bringing you 40s and free agents, the only podcast you'll need this NFL draft season. From DJs mock drafts to my top 101, free agents will have it covered for you with all new episodes every Thursday keeping you up to date as we head to the NFL Draft. Listen to 40s and free agents on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast.