Best of the week on The Herd

Summary

The Herd with Colin Cowherd – "Best of the Week"

Date: May 30, 2026
Host: Jason McIntyre (in for Colin Cowherd)
Notable Guests: Rachel Nichols, Ryan Hollins, Jonathan Givony
Main Theme: Recap and lively analysis of the biggest stories across the NBA and NFL, with deep dives into the NBA playoffs, New York Knicks’ resurgence, NBA Draft, and NFL offseason narratives.

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Episode Overview

This "Best of the Week" episode brings high-energy discussions on the NBA Playoffs, especially the Knicks’ surprise Finals run, contentious takes on player legacies (SGA and Jalen Brunson), breakdowns of NBA Draft prospects, and skepticism about the Dallas Cowboys' real chance in the upcoming NFL season. Jason McIntyre brings his signature blend of hot takes, data points, and fan storytelling, with sharp and candid guest contributions.

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1. The Knicks Are Back: A New York Resurgence

[02:32–09:34]

Key Points:

• Knicks Make the NBA Finals:

  • McIntyre, a lifelong Knicks fan, revels in the team’s return to the NBA Finals for the first time in decades.
  • The Knicks’ blowout win over the Cavaliers is described as a “dunk-a-thon” and “extraordinary run”.

• The Jalen Brunson Effect: Team Building Through Sacrifice

  • McIntyre recounts how Brunson’s decision in 2024 to take "$113 million less" enabled the Knicks to acquire and pay OG Anunoby and Karl-Anthony Towns.
  • “Jalen Brunson took a big sacrifice in 2024. He was pilloried in the media… but look where he is now.” — Jason McIntyre [05:10]

• Knicks’ Roster Strategy

  • Contrasts Knicks’ acquisition-heavy, trade-and-sign roster with the more draft-centric constructions of teams like the Thunder, Celtics, and Nuggets.
  • “Their entire starting lineup was acquired in free agency or through trades. No homegrown players in their top eight… they have built largely differently.” — Jason McIntyre [07:23]

• Brunson’s New York Legacy

  • McIntyre posits that Brunson may soon overtake Patrick Ewing on the ‘Mount Rushmore’ of modern NY athletes if he wins a title.
  • Cites legends like Derek Jeter, Eli Manning, and Lawrence Taylor as benchmarks.
  • “If Brunson wins the finals, I think he overtakes Ewing.” — Jason McIntyre [09:05]

Notable Moments/Quotes:

• “The NBA is better when the Knicks are good. There’s just no question about it.” — Rachel Nichols [03:08]
• “He [Brunson] sacrificed so this Knicks team could get a loaded roster.” — Jason McIntyre [06:00]
• “Jalen Brunson is about to etch himself on the Mount Rushmore of New York sports athletes.” — Jason McIntyre [08:12]

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2. Dallas Cowboys: Hope or Hype?

[09:35–15:41]

Key Points:

• Coaching Changes and Looming Uncertainty

  • McIntyre reacts to OC Brian Schottenheimer moving closer to the facility, reading it as a sign of urgency, not simple convenience.
  • Harsh on his Jets’ tenure: “We didn’t love him in New York. They were winning with the defense, with Rex Ryan… almost in spite of him.” — Jason McIntyre [10:53]

• Cowboys’ Upcoming Challenge

  • Criticism of promising betting lines and schedule-based optimism.
  • “There isn’t a tougher seven-game schedule to start the season.” — Jason McIntyre [13:36]
  • Casts doubt on the team’s playoff potential, predicting more disappointment and speculates about Jerry Jones perhaps chasing a bigger coaching name if things go sour.

Notable Moments/Quotes:

• “To me, this is a good, not great team… I don’t think by any stretch they’re a playoff team.” — Jason McIntyre [14:51]

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3. Game 6 NBA Playoffs: Spurs Force Game 7; Wemby’s Stardom

[19:37–23:14]

Key Points:

• Victor Wembanyama’s Bounce-Back

  • Wemby responds to criticism after a poor Game 5, scores 28 in Game 6 with dominant threes and all-around energy.
  • Teammate Dylan Harper describes the boost from Wemby’s pregame “Shaolin monk robe” outfit, signaling team confidence. — [21:09]

• Analysis of Spurs’ Keys to Victory

  • Block by Devin Vassell on Chet Holmgren highlighted as emblematic of team energy and defense.
  • Concerns remain about OKC’s shooting at home and the possibility of them bouncing back in Game 7.

Notable Moments/Quotes:

• “He came in with the outfit… I think everyone knew what was going to happen.” — Dylan Harper (via Ryan Hollins) [21:31]

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4. SGA, Flopping, and Playoff Legacies

[23:14–33:47]

Key Points:

• SGA’s Perception Problem

  • Repeated flopping (“nobody falls to the ground more than SGA”) has made him a lightning rod for criticism, with social media memes and TV debates amplifying the negativity.
  • “It’s like that grandma in the commercial: ‘I’ve fallen and I can’t get up.’… The refs aren’t taking that bait anymore.” — Jason McIntyre [24:15]

• Statistical Critique

  • SGA has a negative plus/minus in the series; team fares better with him off the court, fueling skepticism about his true impact vs. MVP status.
  • McIntyre questions: Without the whistle and free throws, is SGA really an all-time great, or a “CJ McCollum”-type?

• Legacy Stakes

  • Bold assertion: If OKC loses, SGA’s legacy will be “slandered,” reminiscent of LeBron’s first Miami year and enduring the “not one, not two, not three…” embarrassment.
  • Rachel Nichols tempers the take: “It’s not going to ruin his legacy… but the stench of how people see him in a certain way, that can stick around for four or five years.” [32:45]

Notable Quotes:

• “SGA has kind of dug himself a bit of a hole here, folks. This flopping, this inability to get to the free throw line…” — Jason McIntyre [25:38]
• “The stench of how people see him in a certain way, that can stick around for four or five years.” — Rachel Nichols [32:45]

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5. Debate: SGA’s True Value & Caruso as Thunder MVP?

[37:29–44:05]
Guest: Ryan Hollins (NBA Analyst/Rockets broadcaster)

Highlights:

• SGA’s Flopping Tier

  • Hollins: “SGA is in a different tier [of foul baiting], with Jalen Brunson and James Harden.”
  • Jason: “If he’s not getting a favorable whistle, are we really talking about an all-time great?”

• Is SGA Still the Clutch Guy?

  • Hollins stands by SGA’s big moments: “He hit the biggest shot in the game to close it out… If you had to pick a player for the final shot, outside of SGA, who?”

• Thunder’s Series MVP?

  • Jason claims Caruso deserves MVP; Hollins credit’s Caruso’s steady shot-making but notes “everything goes through SGA.”

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6. Knicks Injury Concerns; Looking Ahead

[44:05–46:36]

Key Points:

• Mitchell Robinson’s Broken Finger: Impact

  • Hollins: Main drawback is free-throw shooting (hack-a-Mitchell), but expects similar effectiveness except at the line.

• Who Should the Knicks Want Next?

  • Hollins: Knicks would rather face the inexperienced Spurs in the next round; “the NBA championship is being played right now in the Western Conference.”

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7. NBA Draft Deep Dive with Jonathan Givony

[47:17–62:07]

Key Points:

• Cam Boozer: Analytics Darling & Versatile Fit

  • Givony: “100% of [front office] analytics people have Cam Boozer at number one…the most productive player in college basketball by a mile at 18.”
  • Sees Boozer as a “power forward who is going to end up playing with the ball in his hands quite a bit,” comparing his skillset to Jokic and Kevin Love.

• Darren Peterson: Dynamic Creator

  • Givony’s personal No.1 pick: “6'6 with a 6'10 wingspan, dynamic, playmaking, can defend 1-to-3—build your team around him.”

• Bigs Are Back

  • Emphasizes the NBA’s renewed trend toward size; Adai Mara and Mares Johnson likely top-10 picks.

• Other Rising Prospects

  • “Mikel Brown is the most talented guard prospect in this draft after Darren Peterson.”
  • “Mares Johnson is going to end up being a lottery pick… teams want size and versatility.”

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Notable Quotes & Moments (with Timestamps)

• “Jalen Brunson is about to etch himself on the Mount Rushmore of New York sports athletes.” — Jason McIntyre [08:12]
• “To me, this is a good, not great team… I don’t think by any stretch they’re a playoff team.” — Jason McIntyre (on Cowboys) [14:51]
• "It’s like that grandma in the commercial: ‘I’ve fallen and I can’t get up.’… The refs aren’t taking that bait anymore.” — Jason McIntyre (on SGA) [24:15]
• “All great players have foul baited—Michael Jordan, Kobe Bryant… SGA is just in a different tier.” — Ryan Hollins [38:29]
• “If I had the number one pick in the draft, I would go with Darren Peterson… he’s what every NBA team is looking for at that point guard position.” — Jonathan Givony [51:32]
• “100% of analytics people have Cam Boozer at #1… he’s an exceptional talent, 2010 guy from day one.” — Jonathan Givony [47:55]

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8. Final Thoughts & Episode Tone

The episode is fast-paced, provocative, and packed with fan angles and inside analysis. McIntyre pushes hot-button ideas but grounds them in data and personal fan experience. The guests (Rachel Nichols, Ryan Hollins, Jonathan Givony) balance out the spirited takes with informed perspective and some measured pushback, keeping the show dynamic and informative.

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Quick Timestamps Guide

• Knicks Finals run & Brunson's impact: [02:32–09:34]
• Cowboys skepticism & NFL talk: [09:35–15:41]
• NBA Playoffs (Wemby/Spurs/Thunder): [19:37–23:14]
• SGA, flopping, and legacies: [23:14–33:47]
• NBA Finals MVP debate (Caruso): [37:29–44:05]
• Mitchell Robinson injury, Knicks future: [44:05–46:36]
• NBA Draft primer: [47:17–62:07]

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For fans or listeners who missed the episode, this summary covers all the must-know headlines, storylines, memorable moments, and the unique Herd attitude that makes the show essential listening for sports fans.

Transcript

[Jason McIntyre]

This is an iHeart podcast guaranteed human

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[Ryan Hollins]

Now let's get this party started.

[Jason McIntyre]

You're listening to Fox Sports Radio. Hello and welcome to the Herd on a just gorgeous Tuesday out here in sunny Los Angeles. It's me, Jason McIntyre in for Colin Cowherd. Boy, is he missing out. What a day in sports. My New York Knicks, the team I grew up rooting for. We're going to the NBA Finals, baby. Get excited. I'm joined today by another person who knows the Knicks very well for a long time, Rachel Nichols. Rachel, also excited about the Knicks. We're back.

[Rachel Nichols]

It's great for the NBA. The NBA is better when the Knicks are good. There's just no question about it. I do have a burning question. Everyone who watched yesterday's show wants to know, did you take out the trash last night, J man.

[Jason McIntyre]

Well, I had to because my wife was coming back from a girls trip. So I definitely took out the trash, cleaned up, and also cleaned up with the gambling. We gave out the Knicks as a huge, huge favorite. They were laying two and a half. That game was over, Rachel. In the first quarter, second quarter, it

[Rachel Nichols]

was over after game one.

[Jason McIntyre]

Yeah. Yes. And let's start there. Let's start with the New York Knicks, the team I grew up rooting for. Folks, I've told this story before. The very first sporting event I went to was the Knicks against the Lakers. It was like, I believe the winter of 1990. 1985. Sorry. And, you know, we had a lot of family in New York, and somehow I convinced my parents to get me tickets to the Garden. We had terrible seats, but it didn't matter. It was an amazing experience. I still remember to this day, I was on my dad's shoulders after the game, leaving. It was an incredible experience. I've waited a long time for a good chance to win the finals. And, folks, the Knicks have it. This is an amazing team. They crushed the Cavaliers last night. The highlights are incredible. It was a dunk a thon. They had more fast break points in the first half than any team had had in the first half in playoff history. Folks, it was an extraordinary run. And honestly, the seeds for this, this amazing, incredible postseason, they were planted in 2024. Do you guys remember what happened that summer? Jalen Brunson had just been named second team all NBA, Right? He was. Had been with the Mavs. He comes to the Knicks because Mark Cuban made the biggest mistake of his professional career. And Brunson decides, you know what? I can wait a year and sign a massive $269 million deal, or I can sign and take $113 million less. Yes, that's right. Jalen Brunson took a big sacrifice in 2024. He was pilloried in the media. I'm not going to call out names, but a lot of people, oh, how could he take that much less money? He's just dumb. Why would you do that? You guys can look in his pockets. I'm looking at the sacrifice that he made and where he's gotten today. Listen, if you're religious at all, you know, sacrifice is a large theme in the Bible and hell in. In life, right? I'm going to sacrifice this for the greater good or in this experience. The team and Jalen Brunson taking $113 million less, essentially set the Knicks up so they could trade for OG Anunoby and sign him to a massive deal. And so they could trade for Carl Anthony Towns and absorb his big contract. Do you guys. Have you taken a look at the Knicks salary cap table this season? Jalen Brunson is their third highest paid player. It's comical. Carl Anthony Towns is number one, followed by OG and then Brunson, he sacrificed so this Knicks team could get a loaded roster. And here's Brunson last night talking about the incredible run and the belief that this franchise has in Jalen Brunson. The belief that the organization has in

[Ryan Hollins]

me has been amazing, and it's something

[Jason McIntyre]

I don't take for granted, and it's something that not a lot of people get the opportunity to do. So. So I'm very thankful and it's an honor to be here in this city and for this organization with my teammates.

[Ryan Hollins]

And

[Jason McIntyre]

yeah, obviously these guys have my back. It's a. It's a fun team. I tried to make the comparison this morning to the staff. They didn't totally bite on it. But, like, is there a. Is there a Boston Red Sox vibe here? Is there a Chicago Cubs where kind of everybody around the country's like, that's a great story. I mean, hell, Jalen Brunson was taking barbs from Becky Hammond, a legendary WNBA player. Oh, you can't win a title with a small point guard. Well, the Knicks are going to the finals with a small point guard. Jalen Brunson's been utterly dominant. And I do want to add folks like the Knicks and what they've built is pretty incredible when you look at this aspect. So, historically, in recent years, teams have been bad, then drafted well, and then got to the finals. I mean, you look at last year's team, the Thunder, held this year's team as well. I mean, their core, their core guys have been built through the draft. Yes, obviously SGA was a trade, but their core guys were built through the draft. Look at the Boston Celtics, Tatum and Brown. By the way, we're doing a Celtics topic later. Boston fans, you might want to earmuff it. It ain't great, but the Celtics score. Peyton, Pritchard, Brown, Tatum. Look at the Denver Nuggets, Jokic, Murray, Ryan Braun, Michael Porter Jr. Would they won the title? I mean, you go back, a lot of these teams were built through the draft. And somebody smart said to me yesterday, look at the Knicks, folks. Their entire starting lineup was acquired in free agency or through trades. No homegrown players in their top eight, right? I looked at the top eight for the spurs and the Thunder. Six on each of those teams were drafted for the Knicks. It's two. That's it. They have built largely differently. And I think that's because Jalen Brunson took less. And again, you guys can look and be like, ah, stupid. Why would he sacrifice for the team? Well, look where he is now. Jalen Brunson is about to etch himself on the Mount Rushmore of New York sports athletes. If we. If we would agree on that, it's Eli Manning for his Super Bowls. I'm talking the modern era. We're not going Babe Ruth, 1920 stuff, okay? In the modern era, it's gotta be Derek Jeter, Eli Manning. I think many would agree. Lawrence Taylor and Patrick Ewing, right? The greatest Nick, I believe. And again, we're talking modern era. This is no slight to Willis Reed, Walt Frazier. But if Brunson wins the finals, I think he overtakes Ewing. And frankly, he could be incredible and overtake Ewing anyway. And again, I told the story this morning to the staff, like, Patrick Ewing was my guy growing up, went to Georgetown, loved Patrick Ewing, okay? And he was. He was coming to Macy's for, like, an autograph signing. And I begged my parents, please, I gotta go meet Patrick Ewing. I love Ewing. I had the Ewing jersey. Have one in my home in my closet right now. And. And I go to the autograph signing, and I'm all excited. I'm like, patrick signed this? He's like, right? I was like, can I get a picture? He's like, no. And it was one of those you never want to meet your heroes moments. And I love Patrick Ewing still. That. That was a mild setback, but I still like him a lot. I think Brunson's going to overtake him. And here's the Mount Rushmore of modern New York sports athletes. I think Ewing gets replaced by Brunson. And again, it's not a slight to Patrick.

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He.

[Jason McIntyre]

Some New York fans will Argue he underachieved number one pick. They thought everything. He was going to win it all. Couldn't break through and win the title. Came close. John Starks. Don't talk to me about game seven, okay? Don't talk to me about that shooting performance. Ewing had an amazing career. Hall of Famer, obviously, but I believe Brunson for the sacrifice of taking less, for being an underdog his entire career. I mean, it's just a great sports story. And it's weird because mostly America's tuned out on the Nick New York teams. This team is different. They're built different. And Jalen Brunson is the quintessential star for the best I can recall. I can't remember an athlete who's taken less other than Tom Brady in, like, the last 25 years. Brady took less sacrifice for the team. They had an amazing dynasty. Brunson's now doing the same. All right, let's pivot to the NFL and, you know, listen, it's the NFL off season. The stories are, yeah, people are trying to be interesting about teams. And we covered some interesting lines yesterday around the league. One team we did not cover was the Dallas Cowboys. And I saw this. My guy, Mike Florio, Pro football talk. Brian Schottenheimer sells his house to move closer to the facility so he could spend more time at the facility. And listen, you, you guys know J. Mac. At this point, I, I'm gonna, Whoa, what this? I don't know Texas real estate. We got a couple guys on staff who do, but this was not a real estate play. This was not so he would avoid traffic. If we're being completely honest, I think Brian Schottenheimer knows what's at stake. He was terrible last year against playoff teams 15 and 1, and they missed the playoffs for the second year in a row. Shotenheimer saw the offense be incredible. They had Pickens, they were outstanding. But they couldn't win the close game. They were okay in close games and they couldn't beat good teams. So now they retool the defense. They're going from a 4, 3, which they've run for about the last decade and change, to a 3. 4. They've got a young defensive coordinator. They stole him from Philly. And it looks like, again, we'll see how the depth charts shake out, but they're going to have four or five new defensive starters now. I, I, I, I don't want to go overboard with the Schottenheimer stuff. He was a former jets offensive coordinator. We didn't love him in New York. And, you know, I know they did have a decent run, but it was almost in spite of him. They were winning with the defense. With Rex Ryan. We won't go through the history, but if you look at this Cowboys team and you think, oh, well, there's something here, Jay, you're missing out. Look at the win total. Remember last week we did the story. Cowherd was so excited. I had a buddy text me. Boy, he was so geeked about that. Cowboys win total, moving from eight and a half to nine and a half. And a lot of it was after the schedule came out. You know, things shook out nice for Dallas, but I'm just going to go through the first seven games here, guys. Okay? That game against the Giants are small road favorites. That's a huge game against your rival. John Harbaugh's debut. We don't know if Malik Neighbors is going to be around. That's a massive game. I'm not counting that as a win for sure. Then you've got Washington, another division rival, and Dan Quinn's fighting for his job. Okay, Jaden Daniels comes into the season healthy. I don't know that that's a layup. Then you go to Rio to face the Ravens. You come back, no buy. Okay? There isn't a lot of data on the Cowboys because they haven't played an international game in 12 years. We don't know how they're going to reply coming back from a trip to Rio to go to face the Houston Texans. Good luck with that. So now all of a sudden you're staring down the barrel. Oh, damn, we're one and three. We had sky high expectations and, you know, Baker Mayfield, Thursday, short week. Think about this, guys. Rio to Houston. All the Texans do with one of the best defenses in the league is beat you up. Then you've got to go on a short week at home to play the Bucks. Never a layup with Baker Mayfield. Oh, and but then, by the way, then you've got to go at Green Bay, at Philly, there isn't a tougher seven game schedule to start the season. You know, maybe Brian Schottenheimer sees the writing on the wall. Holy hell. We. We got Marcus Freeman, the hottest name in coaching right now at Notre Dame, talking about why he stayed. You know, they're coming after Freeman. I'm just telling you guys right now, between the quarterback and the coach, Notre Dame's going to the playoff. Would not be shocked if they're in the final four or the final. Haven't bet any college football futures yet. But keep an eye on that team. And I bring that up because at some point, does Jerry break character. Hey, man, Jason Garrett, that was fun. And Mike McCarthy, maybe Jerry says, hey, I'm so old, I need a coach. That's a big deal. As opposed to me being the man who's doing press conferences three times a week and meeting the media. Maybe he does that and goes to Marcus Freeman. Now, we have heard this before. Hey, what happened to Lincoln Riley, right? That was supposed to be a lock. Jerry is. He clearly is afraid to bring in a powerful coach like he did in the 90s. And we know that guy got all the credit. Jerry got jealous. We don't need to rehash it. But I, I don't. I don't see greatness in Dallas the way everyone else does. To me, this is a good, not great team. We'll see how the defense adjusts. Again, I did like the move bringing in the young defensive coach from Philly. We saw what he did with their secondary. Now he gets Caleb Downs. So I guess the arrows pointing slightly up for the Cowboys, but I don't think by any stretch they're a playoff team. And when that doesn't happen, then you start wondering, is shot he going to get run out of town? How many more years can Jerry take? No playoffs and be happy with it. So starting the show with New York and Dallas. I know you guys like that, especially given my proclivity to talk Knicks for about two hours today. And, yeah, I'm going to bash the Cowboys when I get a chance. Coming up next. Oh, my gosh, we have so many good things to talk about. None of it involving the OKC Thunder injury. News is bad line is dropping spurs looking very tightly. Yes, that's a word I just made up. That's next year on the Herd. Be sure to catch live editions of

[Ryan Hollins]

the Herd, weekdays at noon Eastern, 9am Pacific on Fox Sports Radio, FS1 and the iHeartRadio app.

[Jason McIntyre]

This is Rob Parker, and I'm here with an important public service announcement. Whatever you do, do not listen to the Paulie and Tony Fusco show. Fox Sports Radio asked me to do a promo, but I'm here to do a no Mo, as in don't listen to this show no mo, the host of two fools from Philly who have the dumbest takes ever in all of sports talk. And, you know, if I'm saying that, they must really be bad. I have no idea why Fox Sports Radio picked this up, but I know where to put it. Down in the trash can. So please don't listen to the Paulie and Tony Fusco show. No way, no how.

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[Jason McIntyre]

would have this kind of energy after what happened in game five. But game six, a totally different story. We have a phenomenal show. Jam packed today. Some outstanding guests, the foremost NBA draft analyst stopping by, former NFL player. Yes, Lamar Jackson is still in the news. I know you don't really want to hear it, but I'm going to jump right in. Let's get right to it, okay? It's time baby. Victor Wembanyama, we challenged him on this show after he wet the bed in game five. Could not do anything offensively. Four for 15. Hey Wemby, you going to show up for your legacy game? And guess who showed up in spades last night in game six. Victor Wembanyama started off the first quarter unbelievably hot. Hit his first three threes. I mean listen, he was in his bag. 11 points right out of the gate when Wemby is hitting step back threes in the first quarter and the crowd is geeked. I mean folks, look at it. It's a step back three. Look at that. He's seven foot five. Okay now Victor Wembanyama finished with 28 in a masterful performance. He got some help from his guys. We'll get to them in a moment. Specifically Dylan Harper. Harper, if you remember, was injured earlier in the series. He was dynamic in game one. He was everywhere. He was their second best player. And then the injury happened. He got a one way ticket on the struggle bus. We haven't seen him. Guy was on a milk carton. And then he showed up last night. And here's what Dylan Harper had to say about Wembanyama's awesome pregame outfit and the energy it gave the team.

[Ryan Hollins]

I know Victor's always locked in, but

[Jason McIntyre]

you see him come in with, I

[Ryan Hollins]

don't know if you saw with the Shaolin monk robe. And he's at. He's animated like that.

[Jason McIntyre]

You know, before the game, did you

[Ryan Hollins]

kind of have a feeling he was going to, you know, come out that hot of a start? Yeah, I mean, we all had a

[Jason McIntyre]

bad taste in our mouth at the last game. We felt like we left a lot on the table. And that's just what Vic do. I think that's the type of guy he is, you know, manning his words. So when he came in, he kind

[Ryan Hollins]

of came with the outfit. I think everyone knew, knew what was going to happen.

[Jason McIntyre]

Yeah, listen, now the spurs get to Force Game 7. Here's the pregame outfit. You know, fit check Wemby. I mean, looks like the beginning of a Wu Tang video. Love it. Here's the only concern. OKC missed 33 pointers. Okay? We know when they go home, they're not going to miss them. They're not. Caruso is going to be banging them. You're going to have Kayson, Wallace. All these guys are going to make all their threes. I'm just curious if the spurs can hold them off and actually play as good of defense on the road as they did at home. Now, I know OKC didn't get their whistle that they want. We'll get to them in a moment. But if de' Aaron Fox continues to play at such a poor level, folks, he was one of nine last night, five of 24 in the last two games. If they're not getting anything from Fox, I'm being honest, I don't think they can go into game seven and win. Now, we have seen two game seven road victories this postseason. The Sixers went into Boston and the Cavs went into Detroit. Neither of those venues, Sorry, is anything like okc.

[Jonathan Gavoni]

All right.

[Jason McIntyre]

It's just. It's just not okc. Last year, two game sevens, one against Denver. Aaron Gordon was hurt kind of playing on one leg. They went in handily. And then there was the Pacers game, where Tyrese Halliburton goes down with the Achilles in like the first 10 minutes or first five minutes. And that was a wrap. I do think if they can bring the Devin Vassell Energy, you saw the clip there. He blocked Chet homegrown at the rim, got in his face, gave him a little shove like, I'm not going anywhere. We're not backing down. I need to see that on the road. And I don't know if the young guys could do that. The line is three and a half. I haven't bet it. We've been giving out free money on the show.

[Jonathan Gavoni]

We.

[Jason McIntyre]

We told you Knicks in a romp. We told you yesterday's Spurs. You know, we did miss game five, but you can't hit them all. Two and one. That's not bad. All right, let's turn our attention to SGA and the OKC Thunder. Now, I did take a couple shots at SGA throughout this season, throughout this postseason, regular season, all of it. I'm not an SGA hater. I know people think I'm a little anti sga, but folks, you got to admit, J. Mac kind of nailed this one. All right? I said before the series he was going to be in trouble. I watch those regular season games. I know the regular season is different from the playoffs. But Castle ain't backing down. Harper is a strong dude. He's stronger than SGA. And SGA had another terrible game last night. 6 of 18 couldn't make a three and he only got three free throws. Here he is flopping. Every time he goes up, the guy's go falling to the ground, crumbling. It's like that grandma in the commercial. I've fallen and I can't get up. You've seen those infomercials. That's what he looks like. Seriously, look, every time he drives, just falling to the ground. The refs aren't taking that bait anymore. It's almost like the memo is out. Hey, guys, we're not calling that crap anymore. He is struggling so badly this season. Here are the season numbers. Against the spurs in this series, it's even worse. He's at 37% shooting, 26% from threes. Guys, I'm not going to totally bury him yet. Give me another minute. Here's SGA talking about his shooting struggles last night. A lot of the shots that I'm shooting, I've shot plenty of times before, and they feel good. They're just not going in.

[Ryan Hollins]

Yeah, it's too late to abandon my work and abandon my game. And who I am this late in the season. I gotta trust it and live or die by it.

[Jason McIntyre]

Now, I will say that J.J. redick and the Lakers started this. They saw it last series. Hey, we got to get the ball out of his hands. Marcus Smart was physical with him and they made him give it up. The problem was he had A.J. mitchell as his wingman. And A.J. mitchell can create for himself and for others. So now AJ Mitchell's out with the calf, and that's not great. To be totally fair, AJ Mitchell was very good this year. He played 19 total minutes in the NBA Finals last year. So I'm not going to act like, oh my God, it's all NBA guy, maybe down the road and he was good this year. Let's not act like, oh no, A.J. mitchell, you can't win the series. Then there's the J Dub factor and oh my gosh, what a bad decision for him to play. I think they were hoping he would give them like an energy boost, like a Willis Reed moment, you know, hey, he's going to give it a go. J Dub was terrible. I mean, to the point. There he is with a turnover. Like, I mean, that's like me in our men's league. I can't handle it half court against pressure. I'm a truth. I'm a truth teller. Guys, J Dub was coughing it up. Ten minutes, he was minus 18. Not great. So that's out of the way. But as a result, the pressure's on SGA and he's not delivering. Now this is a little bit crazy. Okay? You know, I'm willing to say some wacky stuff. This is super strong. So there's a headline out there today. SGA one loss away from having his entire legacy slandered. That's an actual headline on the Internet today. And initially, you know, you laugh. You're like, oh, geez, legacy SGA's 27. He turns 28 this summer. What? Legacy slandered? Take a deep breath. Shucks. You know, the flopping is out of control. It's the number one narrative in the series. Your mom and your 78 year old grandma are aware of the flopping. Why? Because it's being talked about everywhere. You can't turn on a TV show, podcast, radio without hearing this and all. It's all over social media. The videos are three minutes long of every time SGA fell to the ground in the series. Like it's a real thing. You've got his Olympic teammate making up a fun board game about sga. You can't breathe on him. So I do wonder. I thought about this and I'm like, you know, this flopping, it's a narrative. It's a thing. You can't shake it. SGA is now going to be connected to flopping forever. So I thought about it. The only comparison I could come up with was when LeBron left Cleveland the first time. Okay? He does the special with Jim Gray. Not a great look. He goes to Miami. His first press conference is, we got Chris Bosh, me D. Wade. We're not going to win. Not one, not two, not three. And they. And they Made this that we're going to win all the titles. And then they come out in year one and lose to Dallas in the finals. And it was one of those. Well, I don't want to hear anything about LeBron being a star. Are you kidding me? Okay. He couldn't shake that for like five years. I'm not even kidding. This was a real thing. He won back to back titles with the Heat. It didn't matter. Remember when they lost to Dallas, they said they were going to win 50 titles. So he goes back to Cleveland and he's down 3:1 to the 73 win. Warriors, the greatest regular season team in NBA history. They have to come back from down 3:1 for LeBron to erase the stench of ditching Cleveland with the press conference. And then not one, not two, not three again. That was such a big story nationwide that it took LeBron three championships, including a historic one, to wipe that off his resume. And now people move on. Okay, well, he beat this team. He's him. LeBron's that guy. And I just wonder like, SGA has kind of dug himself a bit of a hole here, folks. This flopping, this inability to get to the free throw line. And I, and I start coming up with comparisons. I'm like, okay, so if SGA isn't getting a favorable whistle and getting to the foul line and he's get being held to 15 points and you know he's not a three point shooter, he would admit that, who is he? And I start looking around the league like, who are some great shooting guards who couldn't really get to the free throw line but were excellent? You know, it reminded me of Conan o' Brien's if they made it. Remember that skit that he had where it'd be like celebrity A and celebrity B, have a kid. Ha ha ha. Look what it looks like. So I was doing an if they mated with sga, no free throws and like great shooting guards of the past. And I'm like, so is SGA basically like a CJ McCollum if he doesn't get a favorable whistle, which is not slander. McCollum's a really good player. All star. He might have made an all NBA team. Like is SGA Allen. Houston Knicks fans know him well. Really good shooter, didn't shoot a lot of free throws. Oh, four or five free throws a game. SGA's like nine free throws a game. He shot 17 and three quarters the other night. That's where he makes his living. And again, this is not slanderd. Allen Houston CJ McCullum, maybe he's RIP Hamilton, a great champion. Detroit Piston legend Rip Hamilton mid range game. Like, I think that's all reasonable. Where people are not going to accept SGA stuff, folks, is just, well, hey, you know, we're going to have to have some uncomfortable conversations If SGA has two titles and two MVPs. Like no, we, we don't. No, because this flopping is exposing him as not even close to the category of a Kobe of a D. Wade. Of all the great shooting guards in NBA history, he's not in that class. Now if they lose on Saturday at home, holy hell, they will have been the number one seed three years in a row and they will have got to the finals once. That's a disappointment. Now maybe they win game seven. He goes on. But if you guys remember yesterday, I had Chris Broussard on the show and I said cb, the MVP if they win game six is Alex Caruso. And he scoffed at me and then I hit him with some numbers and he kind of came back a little bit. Let's show on the screen SGA the two time MVP when he's off the court. In the series, the OKC Thunder are better. They're plus 10 with SGA off the court. When he's on the court, they're minus 28. That is the inverse of Victor Wembanyama aka the best player in the league. Now obviously plus minus isn't everything and the Thunder have gotten off to some slow starts. I don't know how that happens with the two time MVP, defending champion team whatever. But on the court he's minus 28. Alex Caruso by the way is a big plus when he's on the court. Crusoe was fine last night. Nobody was good for them. But folks, we head to game seven and you know, I, we could play this double legacy game all, all day. And Jason, how is somebody playing for their legacy at 27 years old? That's goofy. But again, just think back to that LeBron thing. The stench of his departure from Cleveland lingered for years. Okay, I mean SGA could have 40 and maybe this takes off some of the stain, but I'm just telling you, this falling, this flopping, constantly going to the ground, I mean people are running numbers how often he falls to the ground. So I, I don't think he's going to be able to erase it even with a title this year. Now. Yeah, I had to start the show with some hot takes. Rachel Nichols, I want to bring you in here before we get to break again. I am known as like kind of a quasi anti SGA guy. That was a bit of a nine minute rant, but again, it's backed up by data and I think what you're, you're watching the same game I am.

[Rachel Nichols]

Yeah.

[Jason McIntyre]

If he doesn't get to the line, he's not the same player.

[Rachel Nichols]

Look, I think your comp with the not one, not two, not three is exactly right. It's not going to ruin his legacy. This guy's a two time MVP already, you know, and he's, you know, however many wins first round, you know, number one seeds, all that kind of stuff. Gotten to one, maybe two finals, he'll be fine. His legacy will be fine. But the stench of how people see him in a certain way, that can stick around for four or five years. There's no question about that. And look, all teams flop. Lots of players flop. But because he seems to do it the most, at least the perception he doesn't get to the line the most, by the way, in the league because he seems to fall down the most, it's sort of been pinned on him and viewers are frustrated. We talked about this the other day, flopping. The people it hurts most are the fans. Right. It's not the other team. Because if there's no free throw, then actually they're getting to go up the court, you know, five on four. But the fans, it is miserable watching this over and over and over again. And people are going to blame someone for taking some of their joy out of basketball.

[Jason McIntyre]

Yeah. All right. Coming up next here on the Herd, folks, Lamar Jackson. Finally, finally. It took him four months to talk about the departure of his head coach, John Harbaugh. Wait till you hear what he had to say. That's next on the Herd. Be sure to catch live editions of

[Ryan Hollins]

the Herd, weekdays at noon Eastern, 9am Pacific on Fox Sports Radio FS1 and

[Jason McIntyre]

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[Jason McIntyre]

Ryan Hollins great voice on the NBA. NBA Rockets TV analyst. We've been chopping it up for years. Radio, TV, everything. My man, how fired up are you for game seven on Saturday night?

[Ryan Hollins]

I'm ecstatic, man. It's the two best words that we have in sports. Game seven, you're gonna see basketball in its purest form. It's gonna be physical. These teams are gonna be going at it. We got a little personal stuff going on. We got Wimby pulling hair, Hardenstein pulling hair. He's gonna do some musty tv.

[Jason McIntyre]

Yeah. All right, so let's dive right in. I got to start with the flopping, Okay. I know a lot of people. It's a polarizing topic. If you've been on social media the last 10 days, flopping is everything. SGA is the king flopper. They've run. This is not just like subjective. They've run the numbers. Nobody falls to the ground more than sga. Ryan, you've played with and against floppers. This is egregious. Do you think this is a stain on the league?

[Ryan Hollins]

I think it's something that the league is going to have to address. And here's the reality where you have to give credit. SGA is just good at it. And these guys have mastered the game to where you've got to call a foul. They become impossible to guard. And there's a level, hear me when I say this. There's a level where all great players have foul baited Michael Jordan, infamous foul baiter, Kobe Bryant, foulbraider, like go down the line. You have to do it to be successful. But what happens is there's tiers of it. There's a different tier. SGA is in a different tier. He's in that tier with Jalen Brunson, with James Harden. Okay? So when we talk about foul baiting, that's where people are questioning the integrity of the game. And it's because they've gotten so good at doing it. J Mac. And here's the difference. SGA won a championship with it, so he's got a lot of game. And let's not confuse to say we don't appreciate questioning the integrity of the game, but you still are a dog on the floor. So there's no question about him. And he's won a championship doing it.

[Jason McIntyre]

But you say that he didn't get to the foul line last night but three times and he looked like C.J. mcCollum out there taking jump shots, which is not a slight. He's an all star. He's not a two time mvp. So again, if he's not getting a favorable whistle, I mean are we really talking about like an all time great, a two time mvp? Because yeah, he gets, he's a free throw merchant, we get that. But if he's not getting the line, he's not a three point shooter. He doesn't have the body frame to handle. And look at this. I mean there was a sequence like a 25 second sequence in the first half where he drove flopped, no call. Come the other way, right back, two on one, break falls, no call. And it's just like. Brian, what are we doing man? It's just weak.

[Ryan Hollins]

J. Mac, did he close out game five? Did he catch the ball on the wing?

[Jason McIntyre]

Alex, baseline.

[Ryan Hollins]

No, he hit the shot. He got the ball on the wing. He ripped and go baseline and he hit the biggest shot in the game to close it out. And then he looked at Jerry McCain and said easy. Great players go hot and cold. We're not looking for perfection from sga. But his numbers and the team's success has said it all. So if you had to pick a player out of this whole series that you would say, hey, heck, out of the whole the players left right now in the playoffs, is there one guy outside of SGA over SGA that you would give the ball to?

[Jason McIntyre]

Yeah, Wemby.

[Ryan Hollins]

No, stop. Not in the close.

[Jason McIntyre]

Wait, is it against better than Wemby right now?

[Ryan Hollins]

I would give. I said the clutch. He's the most clutch player.

[Jason McIntyre]

I don't know. Jalen Brunson won the award.

[Ryan Hollins]

Stop playing right now. I would give the ball to him over Brunson. And Brunson's a dog. You love big body Brunson, there's no question. But you would give the ball to SGA if you had a final shot to be taken. Okay, tie game, everything on the line or down one. You're giving the ball to sga. So let's not act like he's not a dog. Let's not take away from what he's doing. The foul bait ain't pretty to look at though. I'm not going to pretend like you were wrong by that. But let's not discredit what he brings to the table.

[Jason McIntyre]

Have you seen this? Obviously he brings a lot to the table.

[Ryan Hollins]

Goodbye.

[Jason McIntyre]

Have you seen the stat? Through six games, they're minus 28 with SGA on the court. How on earth do you explain that? Your starting guard plays a ton of minutes.

[Ryan Hollins]

That's very fair. Here's the reality. When SGA is out there, they're getting physical with him. They're double teaming him. The spurs have been able to, they have been built to attack Oklahoma. You know how like with the warriors, you had to build a team to play against the warriors, you had to build a team to play against Shaq and Kobe's Lakers. You had to, you had to assemble. The spurs have been assembled to go after Oklahoma City. And they've double teamed him, they've schemed him, they mixed things up early in the, in the series, they were trapping him at half court saying, Caruso, we're going to give open jump shots. Then they would spot over on the lane, Wemby would just kind of follow him. In this last game they had success, the spurs did, because what they do, Wemby would wait. And as soon as those drives happened, he's athletic to get over there and slide over. So the one thing they've done is keep SGA from getting to the rim. And a lot of the shots are over contested high, big body hand. And they have the versatility to guard them. So hats off to the spurs, man.

[Jason McIntyre]

So I told Broussard yesterday, if the series ends, Caruso's my vote for mvp. And he bit my head off. And then the staff told me today that a couple of guys at ESPN are now saying, I think Caruso should be the MVP of the series for the Thunder. Who you got as your MVP through six games for okc.

[Ryan Hollins]

I mean, this is comparable to, you know, Iguodala winning the MVP over Steph Curry. Steph Curry draws the attention, every piece of your game plan. And I played against Steph Curry. Not in the. Actually, yes, in the playoffs. We have back this is before he was really Steph Steph. But you create game plans to play unorthodox defense against Steph Curry. He's the reason that everything happens in the universe. So I think you can credit Caruso because in those games there was a reason he was open. And hats off to Caruso, the veteran. He stepped up and he made shots. They tried to pick on him and they saw that he showed everybody, hey, I'm not the one. I will go out and drop a 30 ball on you. And that's why Oklahoma City is really darn good. Because their seventh, eighth, ninth man, I don't even think they have a ninth man or a sixth man. They just step up and make plays. So I think Caruso will be deserving. But make no mistake, everything goes through shape. But he's been spectacular, not just offensively, but on both ends. And when that Team needed something. Caruso's been that like, hey, guys, keep it calm. Hit a shot, make something happen. So, J. Mac, you're not, you're not completely slapstick with this one, man.

[Jason McIntyre]

All right. Okay. Slapstick out. Let's go to the Knicks real quick. Mitchell Robinson with the pinky broken, had surgery as a big guy. Hollins a, a center. You know, you and Mitchell similar. I mean, I think he's got 21 of his 28 baskets or dunks in the playoffs. I, I, I'm just curious, what's the impact of the broken finger to Mitchell Robinson? And the, and the Knicks, first off,

[Ryan Hollins]

Mitchell Robinson, a much better player than I was, man. He, he rebounds like a monster. Shout out to Mitchell Robinson. By the way, this is where it will impact Mitchell Robinson, and you've seen already, hack of Mitchell Robinson will probably be in effect. If I'm playing against Mitchell Robinson and he's out there or in that, the big lineup that we've seen Mike Brown implement or try to get some size on the floor to kind of, let's see, assume if it is San Antonio to attack Wimby, they're going to get him off the floor. With Hacker Robinson, other than that, dunking the ball, getting a rebound, he's going to be as effective as he has been. It's just a free throw. So if I'm a coach on the opposing side, Hacker, Mitchell Robinson, as soon as he stepped on the floor, floor, I'm gonna play him off the floor. And then by the NBA rules, in the last two minutes, you can't do it. Then they can choose another shooter. So I would absolutely go more Packer Robinson, that's the only thing it would impact, but he's still going to be able to play at a high level.

[Jason McIntyre]

All right, we got about 60 seconds left. I'm just curious, who do you think the Knicks have a better chance against next round, Thunder or Spurs?

[Ryan Hollins]

I would say the spurs. And pick your poison either way. I think the NBA championship is being played right now in the, in the Western Conference, but I would say the spurs because inexperience. You want to see a team that's new, they don't have the same inspiration. And in some ways, you know, if there's a moment of hesitation where they're just happy to be there, you got them. And I think Oklahoma City, they have the pedigree, they've won their cohesive unit. They know what to look like and how they're going to look in these major moments. So I think the spurs are the more talented group, but ultimately they may not have the experience.

[Jason McIntyre]

And in 15 seconds, your pick for the Western Conference finals, game seven. The line is three and a half OKC favorite at home.

[Ryan Hollins]

My heart says it's spurs, so I think OKC is going to do it. My heart says it's first, but we got to be realistic. Role players play better at home. And again, they've got experience in these game sevens and from being in them myself. Game seven is a different game than all the other games. It looks different, it feels different, it smells different. The shirt you got on, man.

[Jason McIntyre]

Thank you. You like the shirt? Okay. Ryan Hollins. Great guy. Thanks, buddy. We'll talk to you soon.

[Ryan Hollins]

All right, guys.

[Jason McIntyre]

All right. Coming up second hour, we are going to talk a little New York Knicks. And hey, have you seen this college football trash talk story? It's incredible. You'll get it. You're gonna love it. Be sure to catch live editions of

[Ryan Hollins]

the Herd, weekdays at noon Eastern, 9am Pacific.

[Jason McIntyre]

I know you're gonna love it, but you are absolutely gonna love our next guest. I think this is his debut on the Herd, certainly with me. Well, let's bring in Jonathan Gavoni, founder of Draft Express. The guy basically travels the globe finding all the best new prospects. He probably knew about wembanyama like a decade ago. Jonathan, how are you, man?

[Jonathan Gavoni]

I'm doing great. So the last time I was on the Herd, I came on to say, Ben Simmons is overrated. Do not take him at one. And it was such a hot take, even for you guys, that you haven't brought me back since. How about that?

[Jason McIntyre]

Hold up. That was before my time on the show, but that's a hell of a call by you. I was a Ben Simmons. Truth or I do apologize. Let's start. We were talking between the break and. I'm floored by this. Everybody thinks it's Debona versus Peterson at 1 in this loaded draft. But you said something about Cam Boozer that kind of blew my mind. Tell the audience.

[Ryan Hollins]

Yeah.

[Jonathan Gavoni]

If you talk to the analytics people in NBA front offices who have a lot of influence these days, 100% of them have Cam Boozer at number one at the top of their draft model. That's not just because of what he did in college, where he was the most productive player in college basketball by a mile. At 18 years old, but also dating back to what he did in high school, as well as at the feeble level, Cam Boozer has been the best player in every setting that he's competed on since he was 14 years old. And that goes a long ways with the analytics models and for good reason, because he is an exceptional talent and I think he's going to be a 2010 guy from day one. And I think he's even going to make a run potentially at being an all star as a rookie. That's my take.

[Jason McIntyre]

Whoa. So extremely bullish on Boozer. Now, obviously, you know, the big knock is he's not that athletic. He can't jump over a phone book and then the counter is, well, you know, Jokic wasn't that athletic either. And when I mentioned, you know, could you see Boozer being ahead of a Jokic curve? People are like, come on, get out of here. But I don't know. Who do you think he projects as? What's your NBA comp for for Boozer?

[Jonathan Gavoni]

That's a great question. Honestly, like, there isn't a perfect one. Like, you hear, you know, like a souped up Kevin Love, you hear, you know, like talk about Paolo Banchero, but he's so much of a better defender than him. I don't, I mean, Jokic, I like that comp just because of the passing ability. That's really what separates Cam Boozer. His feel for the game is absolutely exceptional. He's got defensively off the ball. He's elite. He's a great rebounder, even though he's not a great athlete. He's just first to every loose ball. He's his, his processing speed, his reaction time. He is a great basketball player. He's also incredibly physical. He's really skilled. He can shoot, he can post, he can play pick and roll. He can handle the ball. We saw Duke use him almost as a point guard at times. Cam Boozer is the real deal. I think teams that drafting at 1 and 2 are giving him a very hard look in this draft, even though that might not be the public sentiment.

[Jason McIntyre]

Wow. So I guess the next question would be like, where does he play? And I guess everybody's watching the playoffs now and saying, well, okay, is Boozer of four and then you need a big next to him. Can he be a small ball five like a Draymond Green? Where do you see him fitting in on an NBA roster? Obviously he's talented. He can fit in anywhere. But position wise,

[Jonathan Gavoni]

I think he's a power forward who is going to end up playing with the ball in his hands quite a bit because he can really handle. He can really pass. A guy like that, you want to put the ball in his hands as much as possible. But he can also play off it because he can really shoot and he can really cut and he can punish mismatches. So you're playing pick and roll. Somebody switches, he's going to go down low and he's going to use that big strong frame to his advantage. He's got great footwork. So really you can play him anywhere on the floor. That's the advantage of a Cam Boozer. You can play him in any lineup alongside any type of player and he's going to win basketball games. He's done that his entire career. There's no reason why that's going to change in the NBA.

[Jason McIntyre]

Wow. So you said analytically. 100% of the people love Boozer analytically. You know, Kenny. Kenny Atkinson's getting ready for game five tonight for for Cavs Nicks. But analytics are a big driving force in the league now. Where do you think the second pick will land? Should Boozer go one job on so or Peterson, who has the edge analytically there?

[Jonathan Gavoni]

Well, I don't. I think it's one is really is going to be either Peterson or debonza. I have. The Wizards are keeping things very close to the vest. I'm not 100% sure where they're going to go. So I don't even cover the draft full time anymore. So it's not really my domain to do mock drafts, thank God and all that. But if I had the number one pick in the draft, I would go with Darren Peterson because I think he is the biggest talent in this draft. He's the most dynamic creator in this draft. You know, when you're 6, 6, 610 wingspan, that type of athlete who can create his own shot, who can pass, who can shoot off the bounce. I think he can guard multiple positions. What I saw him do at the high school level, at FIBA, at the McDonald's American game, Jordan Marine Classic. I know he didn't have the kind of college season that we may have hoped. A lot of that was due to injuries. He did not have this type of burst that we saw earlier on in his career. He was dealing with the cramping issues. He was constantly asking to come in and out of games. Darren Peterson is going to be an all NBA player in my view. I mean, you build your team around a six six guy who can play point guard, who can handle pass and shoot. He's got great physical tools who can defend 1 through 3. Darren Peterson is what every NBA team is looking for at that point guard position.

[Jason McIntyre]

It's interesting you. You mentioned how dominant he was in high school. And I'm sure some people listening are like, wow, come on, high school ain't the NBA. But I'm assuming there is a track record of, hey, when these kids pop in high school, they usually transition well to college in the NBA.

[Jonathan Gavoni]

Well, we saw him against AJ debonza numerous times over their careers. They faced off again and again and again, whether it was at USA Basketball, whether it was at the high school level, prolific Prep against Utah Prep, whether it was at the McDonald's or American game where they matched up, you know, basically all week in practice and then the game. And then we also saw them, Kansas against byu. There was not a single setting where they were on the floor together where I felt that Darren Peterson is not the most talented player on the floor. He's just a better athlete. He's a better passer. He's just a more dynamic player. He needs fewer dribbles. He's easier to play with. Don't get me wrong. AJ Debanza is a phenomenal player. I think he's going to end up being an all star. But Darren Peterson is a notch above him from a talent perspective.

[Jason McIntyre]

Interesting. I love this, John. Jonathan Gavoni, NFL NBA draft analyst Sorry, I do want to ask about Caleb Wilson, who is, you know, athletically he looks like he could be Kevin Garnett. You've seen a lot from him. He had the injury at the end of the season, but what do you see Wilson doing? Any shot he's cracks the top three,

[Jonathan Gavoni]

I think there'll be a conversation there. I'm sure that Memphis will look at that. I can't see him surpassing any of the guys in the top three. And it's not a knock against him. This draft is just so loaded in that top three that it really starts at four. Really, with Caleb Wilson, that's. And there isn't another alternative there. I mean, if he's there at 4, there's. There's really no chance that Chicago passes on him, in my view. You know, he's, he's, like you said, he's an exceptional athlete. He's a very, very, you know, good defender. He can rebound. He's a great finisher. He's really hard to stay in front of you. His own shot from the mid post. He just made, you know, huge strides as the year, as the year moved on. He was not this type of player, honestly, in high school he had a reputation for, you know, tending to coast at times. You know, he got cut from, you know, USA Basketball can. Just because he Wasn't playing all that hard. That was not the player that we saw this year in college. He's going to be an outstanding NBA player. I think the Chicago boys are going to be very excited to add him at 4.

[Jason McIntyre]

So in that like 5 to 10 range, there's a glut of point guards. Keaton, Wagler, you got Kingston Flemings, Acuff. I like Braden Buries a lot. I'm just curious, how do you see those guys shaking out in terms of talent? Is there one that you love more than the others?

[Jonathan Gavoni]

Yeah, I mean, I think that all of those guys are going to be usurped on draft night by Nate Amend. I think Mikel Brown is, is probably the, the, the, the guy who goes five or six in my view and then meant. And then a Dai Mara, I think is very much going to be in that conversation. In that 6, 7, 8 range, I could see those three guys pushing down an Acuff, a Waggler, a Kingston Flemings, because those are the size, the positional size is so important. And that's where a guy like a Darius Acuff or a Kingston Flemings really comes up short. And you saw what Adai Mara did in the final four in the national championship game. Seven foot four, you know, incredible passer. You know, it was just a really, really skilled player. And then Nate A met, you know, 6:10, 6:11, can shoot off the dribble, can create his own shot. You know, very versatile defender. That's what the NBA game is built around. We're watching the playoff games. You know, you don't see a lot of six, two guys out there. Right. I mean it's, it's the guys with that positional size who are, can play multiple positions that are dynamic. They can play on the ball, off the ball. That's what really what the NBA covets. And then Mikhail Brown is another guy that I think we didn't get the best eval on him this year at Louisville because of the back issue. You know, my understanding is that he's fully cleared, he's good to go. You know, his measurements are absurd and just what he can do with the ball in his hands, playing pick and roll, shooting off the dribble. Mikel Brown, I think is, you know, he's the most talented guard prospect in this draft after Darren Peterson.

[Jason McIntyre]

Interesting. Now I love these one on one matchups in, in the workouts. I know they don't do them as often. The greatest story, I think you might have, I might have heard you saying this was The Steph Curry vs. The Kid Tyreek Evans who ended up going to Memphis. And they played one on one and Evans killed him. And you know, obviously Memphis jumped at it and it was like, we got to get in the Tyreek Evans business. Some guys aren't built for that one on one matchup. Have you heard about any matchups or workouts that were where top prospects will be going at one another?

[Jonathan Gavoni]

Yeah, I think the, the workout circuit has changed now. I mean where the agents are very risk averse and it's a lot of one on zero stuff in the top 10. You know, you might get, you know, a one on one matchup like later in the mid to late part of the first round. But you know, these top guys that we're talking about, they're going to be dribbling around cones and shooting wide open jumpers. You're going to have to go back to their game film if you really want to get a feel for how good they are.

[Jason McIntyre]

Yeah, Dai Mara from Michigan. You know, you said 7 foot 4 has grown immensely as a talent since the UCLA days. I'm just curious, watching Wembanyama eat, do you think there are teams in the west who are like, you know what we, you can't find anyone remotely large, as large as Wembanyama, so you got to find someone big. Do you think this helps Mara at all that Wembanyama is emerging as like maybe the best player in the league?

[Jonathan Gavoni]

I mean every, the, the trend of the last few years has been towards size. I mean people are trying to multiple bigs together at the same time. And so you need really skilled, really long, you know, centers who can, who can pass and can score and can protect the rim. Adai Mara has a 9 foot 7 standing reach, second largest in NBA combine history after taco fall. And so that kind of, you know, length and reach is going to be really hard to score over inside the paint. And that combined with the skill level offensively, the passing, the feel for the game, the footwork, the touch that is going to make him really compelling on draft night. And that's why he's going to be a top 10 pick when it's all said and done.

[Jason McIntyre]

I do want to ask about Linda Borg, the great talent from Michigan. He's on the older side. We know the history of, you know, guys who are like 23 in the lottery, 20, even 22. Is he a candidate to slide a little bit? But maybe that works out best for him because then he goes to a good team.

[Jonathan Gavoni]

I think he's going to end up in that 8 to 14 range, maybe 10 to 14. I don't see him sliding very far. You know, I mean he was the second best player in college basketball this year after Cam Boozer. And you know, we saw him play every position in Michigan. Small forward, power forward, center. He can handle, he can pass, he can shoot. He made a big jump defensively this year. You know, that frame that we're seeing, the length, the 74 wingspan there is, I just can't see very many teams wanting to pass on that. Yes, the age is a little bit of concern, but on the other hand, teams are going to say we, I want an older player. I want somebody that's ready to step in from day one. You know, there's not a lot of projection involved with the axel lending board. And so he's going to hear his name called very high on draft night. And I think he's going to be a plug and play guy from day one.

[Jason McIntyre]

Yeah. And last one, Jonathan. Any high risers or fallers that you're hearing about scuttlebutt teams love keep an eye on? I mean, I'm surprised Nate Ahmed in like the 6, 7 range would shock me, but you're way more plugged in on this than anybody. What are you hearing?

[Jonathan Gavoni]

Yeah, you know, it's still a little bit early. I mean really only now are teams in the lottery starting to really get going with their where their workouts. The guy that's really skyrocketed. This whole pre draft process is more as Johnson, you know, starting with what we saw in the NCAA tournament, you know, Michigan winning, winning the championship. But his measurements were elite. He measured six, nine, barefoot, which is a little bit bigger than a lot of people thought he would be. 74 wingspan, 251 pounds. Went into the drill portion of the NBA combine and really shot it well. Blew people away in the interviews. He's only 20 years old. Another guy that the analytics absolutely love. You know, he really fills up the box score with, with rebounds, with blocks, with steals. He scores it very efficiently, 66% for two. He gets the free throw line, he makes his free throws. There's a, you know, a sense of optimism that Mares Johnson is going to be a guy, he's going to be able to step outside and make threes eventually. So, you know, like we talked about earlier, the NBA is trending bigger right now. People want, you know, size. The fact that he played the four as well as the five and you know, show that he can operate in different types of lineups. That's going to help Maurice Johnson a lot. I could see him end up being a lottery pick in this draft. And that'll be three Michigan guys in the lottery. Pretty good year for Dusty May.

[Jason McIntyre]

Yes. Nicely done. All right, Jonathan Gavoni, NBA Draft analyst hey man, we're going to have to have you back again. This is phenomenal stuff because, you know, you could bet on the draft now and you just were giving some actionable stuff. Great stuff. Jonathan Gavoni, Thanks a lot, bud.

[Jonathan Gavoni]

Thanks for having me.

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