Alexandre Pantoja on Joshua Van, Demetrious Johnson GOAT debate, losing in training

Summary

The Herd with Colin Cowherd – Episode Summary

Guest: Alexandre Pantoja (UFC Flyweight Champion)
Date: December 6, 2025
Main Theme:
A deep dive into Alexandre Pantoja’s title reign, his upcoming UFC 323 fight against Joshua Van, the evolution of his skillset and mindset, and a discussion about the race for flyweight “Greatest of All Time” status against Demetrious Johnson.

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Episode Overview

This episode features a candid interview with Alexandre Pantoja as he prepares to defend his UFC Flyweight title against the surging young contender Joshua Van. The conversation explores the significance of Van’s rise, the differences in generational mindsets, how Pantoja remains motivated, lessons from defeat, and his views on family, legacy, and greatness within the flyweight division.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

The Joshua Van Matchup and a New Generation

• Pantoja reflects on Van’s meteoric rise:
  • “Nobody expect Josh fight for the title in the end of the year… that’s inspiration for all this new generation, all this new fighter generation.” (04:49)
• Notes Van is the first title challenger born in the year 2000, exemplifying a changing era.
• Praises Van’s strong mindset:
  • “He don’t want people talking about I’m old if he beat me.” (05:16)
• Discusses how game plans can change quickly in a fight:
  • “You don’t need a game plan… everything can change in the fight.” (05:50)

Path to the Title Fight

• Describes the moment he knew Van would be his next opponent after a standout performance on short notice:
  • “When the fight’s over, I understand if I beat Kaikara France, Joshua is my next opponent.” (06:48)
• Anticipates an improved Van with a full training camp, motivating Pantoja to train even harder:
  • “When he fight with me Saturday, he have a full camp and I expect a better fighter, you know.” (07:35)

Growth as Champion & Lessons from the Gym

• Examines how winning the championship belt changed his approach:
  • “After taking the belt, I put a lot of work in the gym… when I’m back to the gym and then my training partners beat me, I understand, I know I’m more champ.” (08:23)
• Stresses never putting himself on a pedestal as champion, always striving and climbing:
  • “You need like a climb again the mountain to get your shape, to get your level.” (08:53)
• Sacrifices made for success—including diet and family time, showing increased discipline:
  • “It’s not just about what I did, it’s what I not did, you know.” (09:44)

Evolving Fight Style and Mentality

• Shifted from “street fight” mentality to more technical performances:
  • “Before I try to make all the fights like a street fighter… but I don’t need that. I have a lot of technique.” (10:21)
• Cites improved striking and reliance on his elite jiu-jitsu:
  • “My jiu-jitsu can be in another level, you know, and this helped me a lot.” (12:09)
• Plans to adapt in the fight, balancing his striking and grappling expertise.

Mindset Against Van: Experience vs. Youth

• Anticipates a high-pressure, action-packed fight due to both fighters’ styles:
  • “I put the pressure on my fights. He put pressure in his fight.” (13:29)
• Shows great respect for Van’s life story and drive:
  • “He’s the man of the house… come to America, live the American dream like myself, give a house for his mother, take care about his family. That’s a great history, you know.” (13:39)
• But also values the wisdom and maturity that come with age:
  • “I feel so much more mature myself, you know… I can use this pressure he make to beat him.” (14:03)
• Recognizes the dangers of overconfidence:
  • “The confidence can make you make mistakes, you know?” (14:29)

The Value of Experience and Learning from Defeat

• Relies on his long track record in big fights:
  • “I learn more when I lose, you know, and a lot of losers I have in my life helping me to get this moment.” (14:59)
• Is keenly aware of his remaining time at the top and the importance of minimizing mistakes:
  • “I don’t have more time to make mistakes, you know, I have a short time now. I’m with 35. I feel the best time of my life.” (15:50)
• Attributes much of his current form to improvements in diet, sleep, and balance:
  • “It's not just the experience in the fight in the octagon, but everything you learn about this process.” (15:50)

Family, Gratitude, & Legacy

• Shares his deep gratitude for what life has given him beyond fighting:
  • “I never dream one life like that, you know, I’m super happy. Everything I conquer side of my wife and my kids… I don’t need the title to prove I’m the champion.” (16:37)
• Sees his position as champion as a chance to impact and inspire others, especially his own children:
  • “I want to be an example for my kids… now I’m a better man, and I can help a lot of guys in the same situation.” (17:54)
• Driven by both personal fulfillment and the desire to set an example.

The Flyweight “GOAT” Debate

• Host acknowledges that Pantoja is closing in on Demetrious Johnson’s legacy:
  • “Right now, Alexandre Pantoja is nipping away at that legacy and closing the gap on becoming the greatest flyweight of all time. And in some people’s opinion, he might already be that.” (18:16)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “I like to call me old school guy… my mindset, my style. But I see a lot of good things about Joshua.” — Alexandre Pantoja [05:16]
• “Everything can change in the fight, you know.” — Alexandre Pantoja [05:50]
• “I haven’t been working a lot to get this belt… when I’m back to the gym and then my training partners beat me, I understand, I know I’m more champ.” — Alexandre Pantoja [08:23]
• “I’m better athlete right now and because that I can make a better performance in the October, you know.” — Alexandre Pantoja [09:44]
• “I have a lot of experience in my striking game and of course my jiu-jitsu make a lot of difference for me.” — Alexandre Pantoja [12:09]
• “He’s the man of the house… his history he have, you know, about come to America, live the American dream like myself, give a house for his mother, take care about his family. That’s a great history, you know.” — Alexandre Pantoja [13:39]
• “I don’t have more time to make mistakes, you know, I have a short time now. I’m with 35. I feel the best time of my life.” — Alexandre Pantoja [15:50]
• “I don’t need the title to prove I’m the champion, you know, because I have a beautiful family on my side.” — Alexandre Pantoja [16:37]
• “Now I’m a better man, and I can help a lot of guys in the same situation.” — Alexandre Pantoja [17:54]
• Host: “Pantoja is nipping away at that legacy and closing the gap on becoming the greatest flyweight of all time.” [18:16]

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Important Timestamps

• 04:49 – Pantoja on Joshua Van's unexpected title shot, generational change
• 05:50 – Why game plans can evaporate in the Octagon
• 06:48-07:35 – Recognizing Van as his next opponent post-short notice win
• 08:23 – The importance of gym work after claiming the belt; training partners “beating” Pantoja
• 09:44 – Sacrificing personal and family time for success
• 10:21 – Evolution from brawling to more technical, tactical fighting
• 12:09-12:34 – How elite jiu-jitsu and striking shape his style
• 13:29-13:39 – Both fighters’ forward pressure; Van’s inspiring backstory
• 14:59-15:50 – The value of experience and learning from losses
• 16:37 – Family and gratitude
• 18:16 – Host frames the “GOAT” debate in the flyweight division

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Tone & Language

The tone throughout is thoughtful, humble, and grounded—Pantoja often downplays his own status while lifting others up, frequently crediting his family, training partners, and experiences for his evolution as an athlete and person. The interview is direct but friendly, providing both insight and inspiration.

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In summary:
This episode is a wide-ranging portrait of a champion at his peak, focused on preparation, humility, and personal growth. Pantoja honors the next generation, details his sacrifices, and is candid about both his struggles and joys, all while closing the gap on all-time greatness in MMA’s flyweight division.

Transcript

[Alexandre Pantoja]

This is an iHeart podcast.

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[Alexandre Pantoja]

The Volume.

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[Interviewer (Host)]

You triple. Champ, champ, champ, champ. Just defending that belt all the time, huh?

[Alexandre Pantoja]

Yeah, I try to, to make Feywit great again.

[Interviewer (Host)]

It's going good, man.

[Alexandre Pantoja]

Yeah.

[Interviewer (Host)]

Some fun fights, some good defenses. And now you got a young guy in front of you that is.

[Hard Rock Bet Advertiser / Co-host]

Destined.

[Interviewer (Host)]

Right to try and challenge your throne. What do you make of Joshua Van?

[Alexandre Pantoja]

I'm happy, you know, to have this name, a new name. Nobody expect Josh fight for the title in the end of the year, you know, and that's so amazing. I think all the fans like that especially because born in 2000, first guy born in 2000 to fight for the belt. That's inspiration for all this new generation, all this new fighter generation. You know, they guys figure out.

This moment change, you know, young guys coming and I like to call me old school guy. My, my, my mindset, my style. But I see a lot of good things about Joshua. You know, he have very good strong mindset. You know, he talk about, he don't like to talk about the different, the age he have me because if he beat me, he don't want people talking about I'm old.

[Hard Rock Bet Advertiser / Co-host]

Yep.

[Alexandre Pantoja]

You know, and he talk about something about the game playing. The guy say.

You have a game plane and some. He talk about something. I, I understand this very, very quickly. You, you don't need a game plane. You know, when you go to the fight, if you have a Game plane. Everything can change in the fight, you know. Of course you have your game playing. You. You make your, your movements in the gym for your opponent, but you not can take that for and like hold that for you in the fight, you know, all changing when the fight starting, you know. And I understand his mindset is very strong.

[Interviewer (Host)]

Yeah, you know the last fight you fought Kai Carafron, right? He fought on the same night as you guys. When he and Brandon Royville had that fight, did you believe that he would be next after that or do you think it was because of the circumstances? He was in the arena, he was there. He got to go in the ring with you. Did you watch those guys fight? And when he was done go, that's the kid I'm gonna fight next.

[Alexandre Pantoja]

No, of course when he accept the fight with rival, I know my next opponent can be Revival or Joshua Van, you know, because Revival come the victory from Moreno and Tahita, he make a good statement to back to fight for the title. But Joshua take that for him, you know, amazing fighting. When I looked at that fight, amazing job both do it. And our map in my in the locker rooms. And when the fight's over, I understand if I beat Kaikara France, Joshua is my next opponent. But I like to take that. He do great in that fight. Yeah. But in the same moment.

He just take three weeks the short notice, short notice fight for the fight. But when he fight with me Saturday, he have a full camp and I expect a better fighter, you know. And this makes me motivation a lot. That's why I'm training very hard for that fight.

[Interviewer (Host)]

You have defended the belt multiple times now. But as the defenses come, they've gotten easier. How do you think that you're separating yourself from the division? Because before you were in these barn burners with Moreno, but the last two with Kara, France with Sakura, it almost seemed easy. Right? How are you separating from these guys now? As you have become, have you been the champion longer?

[Alexandre Pantoja]

I think after taking the belt, I put a lot of work in the gym. I haven't been working a lot to get this belt. And the moment I take the belt and the moment I take the belt when I'm back to the gym and then my training partners beat me. I understand. I know I'm more champ.

[Interviewer (Host)]

You keep saying that your training partners beat you. Your training partners are not beating you in the gym. Pantosia, I understand you like want to make your partners feel good. They're not beating you in the gym.

[Alexandre Pantoja]

I'm from America top team.

[Interviewer (Host)]

Man, I know you are but still no, no.

[Alexandre Pantoja]

We have very tough, tough challenges than in my gym, you know. But what I try to say if I'm not 100% like when I'm back to the gym, you need like a climb again the mountain to get your shape, to get your level. And the guys take advantage about that, you know. And I understand I'm normal champion of the war. I need I have a chance one more time to prove that. What I try to say I'm not putting my mind I'm the champion of the world. The time because you try to climb this mountain all the time is so hard.

[Interviewer (Host)]

It is and.

[Alexandre Pantoja]

But after these two years I'm learning a lot. I respect more my body. I get a very bad diet right now. I'm sleeping very early and a lot of guys ask me why you did. It's not just about what I did, it's what I not did, you know.

[Interviewer (Host)]

Yeah.

[Alexandre Pantoja]

Things I'm cut away. It's like when I lost my kids and sometimes I'm not can go to watch the tournaments like stay more house UFC call me sometimes to go to the to some appearance. I say no because I want training and all this respect I have to another fighters for my division. You know this make me better. You know. I think I'm better athlete right now and because that I can make a better performance in the October, you know. And the 1.2 is like before I try to make all the fights like a street fighter, you know.

[Interviewer (Host)]

Yeah.

[Alexandre Pantoja]

But I don't need that. I have a lot of technique. I fight for like close to 20 years. I have professional fighter. I can put my skills out and when I put that out, especially with the Sakura Kakara fans, everybody can see I'm start to finish my fights, you know. And this happened the training man, my training when I not try to rush, it's more easy for me.

[Interviewer (Host)]

When you get guys to the ground, they don't seem to have much for you. That would seem to be the easiest path to victory this weekend with Joshua Van. He's a tremendous boxer at times. We have seen you fight guys in the areas that they're good in to prove that you can compete there. Do we see that or do we see what we saw in the last couple fights? Because it was take him down, control him, submit him. And it would seem as though this matchup would lend itself to that being the game plan again.

[Alexandre Pantoja]

That's nice because you have the same moment you have the very good boxing Josh Chauvin, he have the best takedown defense too, you know, and I want that challenger, you know, I think you feel the same when you go to the fight. When you go to the fight Saturday night, I want to challenge myself, you know, I want to fight with the best fights of the world and that's why I'm here. You know, UFC make my dream life, you know, that's my dream fight with the best fights of the world. And I have opportunity one more time when I fight to Josh Chavan and I want to see what's coming for me, you know, I know he's very good boxing, but I improve a lot. My striking, he's talking about my last two fights with a very good two strikings and I think I won all the rounds, you know, I don't remember I get any punch. Make me feel, you know, I think I improved a lot.

I have a lot of experience in my striking game and of course my jiu jitsu make a lot of difference for me, you know, I think my jiu jitsu can be in another level, you know, and this helped me a lot. But when the fight starting, I gonna put everything out and I figured out, let's see, you know, Kaikara fans have the best takedown defense too. And.

In 30 seconds I have the best take him down. But I'm grateful, you know, to have this opportunity to face off one of the best fighters.

[Interviewer (Host)]

He's young and he's a guy that fights with a lot of forward pressure. You don't back up. It's like your pressure is what's really hard for guys to deal with. But he wants to go forward too. When you guys meet in the middle, it can be explosive. Do you expect him to be able to. Do you expect him to try to pressure you or do you expect him to kind of be going backwards a bit, knowing that you're going to be trying to take him down? Because a lot of times when I would fight, I would fight pressure guys, but the moment I was fighting them, they would kind of go back and try to counter to try to get me on the takedown attempts. Do you think that he will try to go forward? Is that the anticipation or do you think you'll be able to back him up?

[Alexandre Pantoja]

Yeah, talking about the pressure, he make Joshua have a lot of aspects.

And I have the same one, you know, I put the pressure on my fights. He put pressure in his fight. He like to put everything out. He don't make a game plans.

That kid, remember me, you know, not kid guy. I don't Want to put his like a kid. He's young. He young, but he's not a kid. He's a man, you know. And another point, you know, he's the man of the house, you know, that's so great history he have, you know, about come to America, live the American dream like myself, give a house for his mother, take care about his family. That's a great history, you know.

But, yeah, I think I can use all. And then you put the age again, you know, I feel so much more mature myself, you know. And of course, I can use this pressure he make to beat him, you know, I don't like to. To. I feel a lot of confidence, you know, but the confidence can make you make mistakes, you know?

[Interviewer (Host)]

Yeah.

[Alexandre Pantoja]

And I want to stay with my feet on the ground. And I know I have a very tough opponent Saturday night.

[Interviewer (Host)]

How much is experience gonna play a part in this? Because you fought everybody right from before you became the champion to now as the champion, you have fought the toughest guys in the division. And because he's so new, he hasn't had the opportunity to do that. How much will you be able to rely on your experience in those big fights to help you on Saturday?

[Alexandre Pantoja]

You know, I'm learning all the time. I'm learning with my victories, I learn, but I learn more when I lose, you know, And a lot of losers I have in my life helping me to get this moment, you know, And I like to say something. I don't have more time to make mistakes, you know, I have a short time now. I'm with 35. I feel the best time of my life, you know, I'm feeling the best shape of my life, and I want to enjoy that. That's why I'm staying house. I'm not going out. Go to the gym all the time, train twice a day. And I feel the difference, you know, I'm different fighter right now. I feel so much stronger. And.

I think all that, the experience, what I talked about you before about the diet.

I start to not eat sugar, try to sleep very early, enjoy my moment with my family. I think all that can happen, that's about experience, you know, it's not just the experience and the fight in the octagon, but everything you learn about this process, you know, in. I'm close to make 20 years professional fighter. And I learned so much good things, you know, and I. I know all that coming inside me in the octo.

[Interviewer (Host)]

Last one for me, champ. Life now, right? You're the champion of the world. You got Your beautiful family live in America, South Florida. When you look at life like, how appreciative are you of the way that you are living today, right? Opposed to what life could have been.

[Alexandre Pantoja]

I never. I never dream one life like that, you know, I'm super happy. Everything I conquer side of my wife and my kids, you know, I don't need a lot to living happy, you know, I have so much good things, you know, I talked that before getting my first title with Moreno. I don't need the title to prove I'm the champion, you know, because I have a beautiful family on my side, you know, everything I did to get this moment, you know, bring my family here.

See my kids, go to the school here in America, you know, he leave everything, me, my wife, wish to my kids, you know.

But right now, it's a day after day, you know, I know I can change a lot of lives with this victory Saturday night.

I can help a lot of people. You know, I like to say people list me because I have the belt, you know, and I want. I want to make people still list me, you know, I have so much to share with everybody. I don't like to say I want to be an example for anyone, you know, I want to be an example for my kids. But I. It's hard to say that, but I think.

I make a lot of mistakes in my life now. I'm a better man, and I can help a lot of guys in the same situation.

[Interviewer (Host)]

You're the man. You're the man, champ. You are, guys. Alexandre Pantoja defends his championship this weekend against Joshua van at UFC323. Made sure you hit the pay per view buy button to watch the champ in action once again. Hey. Not many believe that anyone would ever challenge Demetrious Johnson's record for title defenses or the greatest flyweight of all time. Right now, Alexandre Pantoja is nipping away at that legacy and closing the gap on becoming the greatest flyweight of all time. And in some people's opinion, he might already be that. And he steps into the Octagon this weekend. Thanks for checking in with me, champ. I appreciate it. Until next time, guys. Peace.

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[Alexandre Pantoja]

Limu is that guy with the binoculars watching us.

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[Alexandre Pantoja]

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