Best of The Herd

Summary

The Herd with Colin Cowherd — Best of The Herd (August 25, 2025)

Brief Overview

In this episode, Jason McIntyre fills in for Colin Cowherd alongside veteran journalist Rachel Nichols. They embark on a lively, opinionated discussion of the NFL’s biggest preseason storylines, focusing on the intense spotlight on rookie QBs like Shedeur Sanders and Caleb Williams, the contract standoff between Micah Parsons and the Cowboys, and what’s next for the Washington Commanders and struggling sophomore quarterbacks. Mike Jones of The Athletic joins to share expert insights, and the hosts tackle key questions about branding, developmental patience for young QBs, and the volatility of star-driven franchises.

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Key Segments and Discussion Points

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1. Shedeur Sanders: The Most Hyped 5th Rounder in NFL History

[03:13–09:12]

• Sanders’ Debacle: Jason recounts Shedeur Sanders’ calamitous showing in Cleveland’s preseason game (3 for 6, 14 yards, 5 sacks for -41 yards).
  • “If you’re keeping track at home, Rachel and I had more net passing yards than Shedeur Sanders did…” — Jason McIntyre [06:00]
• Nepo Baby vs. NFL Reality: Jason draws an analogy with ‘Nepo babies’ in Hollywood, arguing Shedeur is expected to succeed based on celebrity, not merit. Unlike most nepo babies, Sanders is receiving benefit of the doubt after poor play, with many expecting him to simply make the roster.
  • “That’s just not how it works in the NFL.” — Jason McIntyre [06:41]
• Online Narratives: Fans blame poor O-line protection, but Jason counters with stats—other Browns QBs (Dylan Gabriel, Snoop Huntley) fared better with the same linemen.
• Coach Stefanski’s Response: After accusations that the Browns are “sabotaging” Sanders, Stefanski insists development is the priority.
  • “I’m committed to his development, just like all our rookies.” — Coach Stefanski (via Mike Jones) [09:28]

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2. What’s Next for Shedeur Sanders?

[09:37–12:43]

• Jason’s Solution: Frustrated by the media circus, Jason proposes Cleveland trades Sanders to the Raiders—a franchise where he might thrive under less scrutiny.
  • “Let’s just ship him to the Raiders…we don’t need these headaches.” — Jason McIntyre [11:22]
• Media Hysteria: Jason notes the Sanders storyline has eclipsed coverage of other intriguing preseason developments, drawing comparisons to Bronny James’ NBA draft hype.
• Transition: Jason moves the conversation from Cleveland’s options to the ongoing drama in Dallas.

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3. Micah Parsons vs. Jerry Jones: A Contract War

[12:43–16:48]

• Sideline Drama: Micah Parsons is spotted not in uniform, lying on a table during a Cowboys preseason game, stoking media outrage and speculation.
• Jerry’s Negotiations: Jason reacts to Jerry Jones’ convoluted analogy about contract talks resembling a “mama-daddy deal,” and argues Jones is mishandling the situation.
  • “You can’t just have a side deal with the player…it’s not how negotiations work.” — Jason McIntyre [13:20]
• Fan Alienation: With Parsons the team’s most popular player, Jason warns delays could lose fan support. He draws a parallel to Emmitt Smith’s 1990s holdout, predicting potential disaster if Parsons’ situation remains unresolved, especially if Dallas struggles in Week One.
• Rachel Nichols Chimes In: Rachel points out the Cowboys’ leverage, with franchise tags available and Parsons not in a strong position, meaning this could drag on and cost Parsons part of his prime.
  • “If [Parsons] just continues to sit out…it’ll cost him money, and even if he can [get a medical excuse], this is years off his prime years.” — Rachel Nichols [16:48]

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4. Caleb Williams’ Rocky Chicago Start

[22:28–26:48]

• The Ben Johnson Factor: Rachel and Jason react to Bears OC Ben Johnson’s cryptic criticisms after clunky preseason performances by No. 1 overall pick Caleb Williams.
  • “The first quarter was really any indication. It’s not good enough. We gotta get better in a hurry.” — Ben Johnson [24:20]
• Backup Buzz: Johnson singles out backup Tyson Bagent for praise, causing speculation in the Williams camp.
  • “He’s not talking about Caleb Williams. He’s gassing up his backup quarterback.” — Jason McIntyre [25:58]
• Quarterback Pressure: Jason raises doubts about Williams’ mental resilience and on-field composure when things go awry, cautioning that preseason mishaps and internal signals could be harbingers of a rough learning curve in Year 1.

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5. Expert Analysis: Mike Jones of The Athletic

[30:28–47:10]

On Shedeur Sanders’ Hype and Future

• Brand Before Results: Mike Jones explains how Shedeur Sanders’ brand—bolstered by NIL deals, social media, and famous lineage—makes his scrutiny unique for a 5th round pick.
  • “Brand, the name, everything has just made this a bigger deal.” — Mike Jones [31:09]
• Roster Prediction: Mike expects Sanders to stay with Cleveland, though not necessarily active Week 1, but questions persist about his development and readiness.

On Quarterback Development Trends

• Modern Dilemma: Overhyped young QBs often fail in dysfunctional situations with little patience for development.
  • “Lots of times they’re drafted to bad franchises…the patience is not there because coaches don’t have a whole lot of time to save their jobs…” — Mike Jones [42:48]
• Branding vs. Work Ethic: Having a brand is fine if paired with genuine work ethic and teachability—a standard not all QBs meet.

On NFL Storylines and Teams

• Aaron Rodgers in Pittsburgh: Mike calls Rodgers’ current honeymoon phase fragile; any adversity may trigger public grievances from the veteran QB.
  • “There are no bullets flying yet…if this thing is not playing out really well, we could see a frustrated Rodgers definitely air some dirty laundry.” — Mike Jones [36:39]
• Washington Commanders Outlook: Mike is skeptical they can duplicate last year’s playoff run, citing defensive weaknesses and a tougher schedule. The offense (Jaden Daniels, Terry McLaurin) may have to cover for a “toothless” front seven.
  • “That defense…is toothless…they got old dudes, non-factors.” — Jason McIntyre [38:38]
• Colts QB Situation: Daniel Jones is named the starter over Anthony Richardson, raising doubts about the latter’s NFL future and highlighting the perils of drafting raw athletic prospects without adequate development plans.

On QB Bust Rate and Overdrafting

• **Jason and Mike discuss why many recent top draft QBs (Bryce Young, Josh Rosen, Mitch Trubisky) flop, noting teams overdraft for hope and then lack the patience or infrastructure for proper development.
  • “A lot of these are bad franchises…they’re playing sooner than what they should.” — Mike Jones [42:48]

Notable Quotes:

• “It’s way too early to pull the plug or to panic, but…he’s having to relearn a lot of things.” — Mike Jones on Caleb Williams [44:26]
• “If you’re not able to stay on the field…you’re going to go to a guy.” — Mike Jones on Anthony Richardson’s durability [41:31]

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Sanders’ disaster game:
  • “If you’re keeping track, Rachel and I had more net passing yards than Shedeur Sanders did…” — Jason McIntyre [06:00]
• On Jerry Jones' negotiation tactics:
  • “You lost me there, Jerry. Sounds like a Thanksgiving dinner story from your grandpa.” — Jason McIntyre [13:45]
• On the nature of NFL stardom and media hype:
  • “The entire media. Nobody will care about Cleveland anymore.” — Jason McIntyre [11:55]
• On NFL rookie QBs and the new age of branding:
  • “This isn’t a normal 5th round pick…This is a guy we thought would go a lot higher and whose skill set…and brand, has just made this a bigger deal.” — Mike Jones [31:10]

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Important Timestamps

• Shedeur Sanders’ disastrous performance & hype analysis: [03:13–09:12]
• Mike Jones interview covers QBs, franchise dysfunction: [30:28–47:10]
• Micah Parsons contract standoff: [12:43–16:48]
• Caleb Williams and Bears’ preseason woes: [22:28–26:48]
• Discussion of Washington Commanders’ outlook and concerns: [37:11–40:07]
• Segment on QB bust trends and drafting mistakes: [42:13–44:01]

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Conclusion

This episode dives headfirst into the turbulence of a star-driven, media-frenzied NFL: gifted college QBs face culture shock and withering scrutiny, established stars and billionaire owners wrestle for control, and attention-junkie franchises risk losing focus on football fundamentals. The conversation, spiked with Jason’s signature humor and Rachel’s grounded analysis, delivers unfiltered perspectives on what matters most as the season dawns: development, leadership, and sometimes, just managing the circus around the team.

Transcript

[Jason McIntyre]

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[Fox Sports Radio Announcer]

Thanks for listening to the Herd podcast. Be sure to catch us live every weekday on Fox Sports Radio and noon to 3 Eastern, 9am to noon Pacific. Find your local station for the [e-mail] or stream us live every day on the iHeartRadio app by searching Fox Sports Radio or FSR. Thanks for listening to the Heard podcast.

[Jason McIntyre]

Welcome to the Herd. It's me, Jason McIntyre, in for Colin Cowherd. He is enjoying the last days of summer before football begins. It is a beautiful Monday and I'm joined by Rachel Nichols. Everybody knows and loves Rachel Nichols, longtime veteran, journalist, host, analyst. I mean, she's done everything. Rachel, how was your weekend?

[Rachel Nichols]

You know, I was in Orlando for the Big three championship game working with cbs. So it was kind of crazy to see how much that league has grown. Yeah, right when it started it was sort of like a random off thing to do in the summer. And like it's legit, man. They had a full packed arena and you know, names, you know, like Michael Beasley, Lance Stevenson, Mario Chalmers winning the title.

[Mike Jones]

So I saw that.

[Jason McIntyre]

Orlando, very sunny in August. A little heat there, huh? It wasn't my favorite location to be.

[Rachel Nichols]

In in August, but you know, you go where the basketball is.

[Jason McIntyre]

Yeah. Speaking of heat, my week off, I popped over to Vegas, made some bets for the season, the upcoming football season, and I saw Dave Matthews in concert. Excellent show as always. We have an excellent show ahead. We'll do some gambling, a lot of NFL as the week. We are now 10 days away from the beginning of the NFL season. Oh boy, I am very excited. However, before I left for vacation, there were a couple big NFL stories. Caleb Williams, is he going to mesh with Ben Johnson? I return and it's still a problem. The Dallas Cowboys, Micah Parsons, what's going on with him and Jerry, it's still a problem. But bigger than both of those, perhaps combined, is the Shedeur Sanders developing situation in Cleveland. Folks, there's no way around this. He is the most hyped 5th round draft pick in the history of football. And Shedeur took the field in the second half for the Browns. And as you can see here on FS1, it was a bit of a poop show in the final preseason game for Shadore Sanders. He was an unmitigated disaster in the second half. He was 3 for 6 for 14 yards. And it gets worse. He was sacked, as you can see, running for his life five times for -41 yards. So if you're keeping track at home, Rachel and I had more net passing Yards than Shadour Sanders did on Saturday night. Folks, this was bad. But a funny thing happened as the critiques unfolded Sunday morning. And listen, I'm telling you right now, every single podcast, TV show, radio show, anybody writing about the NFL today is leading with Shedeur Sanders because it's, it's just so wacky what's going on in Cleveland. So you guys know in Hollywood, out here in L. A, there's a thing called a Nepo baby, right? Your mom or dad were famous, so they were in music or entertainment. And they get handed something, whether it's an album, a TV role, directing, and usually they're panned. Oh, come on, Nepo baby. They were handed it. They've got to prove it before they get the accolades. The opposite seems to be happening with Shador Sanders, his legion of fans, he's now a celebrity quarterback. They're just expecting him to make the roster. I don't know that it's a 100% lock. I think he's going to make it. We'll know by Tuesday at 4:00'. Clock. But everybody's just expecting him to be given everything. And folks, that's just not how it works in the NFL. And if you listen to Shador talk, I mean, after this performance against the Rams, it was, it was bad. And there's some more bad news coming after it. But here's Shador talking about, oh my gosh, how upset he was that he was pulled before getting a chance to redeem himself in the two minute drill.

[Mike Jones]

If I could go back and do anything, I mean, it's always everything in life, if you had that chance. But we don't have the luxury to travel back in time as a kid. I want to go back and do things differently. So overall, of course, you know, you wish you can, but in the battle, the moment, in the heat of the battle, you know, you want to be that alpha, you want to be that dog, you want to be out there in that final two minute drive. So, you know, of course, of course, small things, of course frustrate, but that's what happens, you know, when you want a player to be able to change your franchise.

[Jason McIntyre]

Yeah. Smiling on the outside, maybe crying on the inside. Listen, it was very clear he was not happy to be pulled by Stefanski. So they put in Snoop Huntley, veteran quarterback, 27 years old, second tour of duty with the Browns. He leads him right down the field for the game winning field goal. Okay. And all these fans of Shadour, I'm trying to understand why they love him so much and he, like, he's a guy. I get it. His dad is Deion Sanders and he's kind of swagged out, but he was terrible. Can we be real? Pro Football Focus had a number that was staggering. Shedeurs average time to throw was 5.13 seconds Saturday night. That's an eternity for a quarterback. And he was still sacked five times and playing backyard football and running around, so yet this weird thing happens. Well, wait a minute, hold on. Did you see that? The Browns cut four of the five linemen who were blocking for Shador. They cut them on, on, on Sunday, so they weren't giving Shador a fair chance. Hello, guys. Two of those linemen who were cut were also playing for Dylan Gabriel in the first half. And Dylan Gabriel absolutely cooked, moved the team up and down the field, nine for 11, had a touchdown. And oh, by the way, two of those linemen were also blocking for Stoop Huntley on that final two minute drive. And side note, Dylan Gabriel was not sacked. Snoop Huntley was not sacked. So Kevin Stefanski naturally is getting asked, yo, were you trying to sabotage your quarterback? Which is mind blowing nonsense. Here's Stefanski. Can you address this sort of persistent.

[Rachel Nichols]

Narrative that, that you're trying to sabotage.

[Jason McIntyre]

Shador Sanders, especially after, you know, after yesterday and not putting him in for the two minute. Yeah, obviously I don't, I don't concern.

[Mike Jones]

Myself with outside type of things, but, you know, I'm committed to his development.

[Jason McIntyre]

Just like all of our rookies. So we'll continue to focus on getting our guys better, and that's what we'll stay committed to. And that's what's important to me. Things are not good for Stefanski. Remember, this is a guy who had to deal with the Baker Mayfield nonsense. Baker Mayfield, of course, was trying to play through an injury, to grit it out, disaster. Then he had desean Watson. Awful. Let's not just speak of it, folks. This is reminiscent of Bronny James from two summers ago. Okay? Remember, it was like, who's the first pick in the Bronnie draft? I don't know. Bronnie went to the Lakers. It's all anybody cares about. Did you know Cam Ward got in a preseason fight? Good luck fighting that online, you know, How's Travis Hunter doing? Trying to be a generational two way process. Oh, we don't know. It's all about the fifth rounder, Shador. Folks, I have a solution. I'm one of these guys. I like to be solution oriented. You know, apparently, you know, when the wife is upset with something. You're supposed to really listen and take it in. And. And I'm instantly like, let's just fast forward to the solution. I cannot deal with this negativity. So I want to deal with the solution for Shador. And I got shouted down in the morning meeting when I said, I got it. Guys, did you see the Raiders? They lost Aiden o' Connell out six to eight weeks fractured. And if I'm the Browns, Get Shador out of here, please. I can't deal with this anymore. Let's just. Let's just ship him to the Raiders, J. Nobody's trading for Shador. Well, wait a sec. Wait a sec. Pete Carroll did meet with Shador at the combine. Shedeur loves Vegas. Go look at his Instagram from January, February. Big fan of Vegas. Called Vegas legendary. It's not really legendary anymore, but I understand. Why wouldn't the Raiders say, hey, let's bring him in to be the backup. He can learn from Geno Smith, who, by the way, struggled big time when he was with the jets right out of college. Go ask Mark Sanchez about that. Sorry, Mark. Listen, I think Shedeur can learn a lot. Nobody's going to ask for him to start in Vegas. Why don't you ship him out of town? Hey, man, we'll take what we can get. Let's cut our losses. We don't need these headaches. And guess who else is following him out the door. The entire media. Nobody will care about Cleveland anymore. Browns, you got to fix this. Now. From one problem to another, let's go to Dallas and Jerry Jones versus Micah Parsons. I think this is like round nine, I think. Is that where we are, folks? I'm sure you saw the video from the weekend the Dallas Cowboys played a preseason game. Micah Parsons, the only Cowboy on the sideline, not in a Jersey. Micah Parsons also laying down on a table while the football was being played. And of course, the media is freaking out. Who cares what happened on the field? Because it's Micah Parsons Now. Micah's got a bad back, but Brian Schottenheimer spoke to the media and was like, hey, it came back pretty clean. You can see where this is headed. It's about to get ugly in Dallas. You know, I already think the Cowboys are going to be a bit of a dumpster fire, but let's hear Jerry Jones talking about the situation with his star defender, Micah Parsons. We wanted to send the details to the agent the agent sold us to.

[Fox Sports Radio Announcer]

Stick it up.

[Jason McIntyre]

We had our agreements on term amount guarantees, everything. We were Going to send it over to the agent. And the agent said, don't bother because we've got all that to negotiate. Well, I'd already negotiated. I'd already moved off my mark on several areas. It's the Mama Daddy deal. You go into mama and she won't do it. And she's the boss, so she won't do it. So you run into Daddy, Daddy says do it, and then you go back in, say, mama, Daddy said it was all right. You lost me there, Jerry. Sounds like a Thanksgiving dinner story from your grandpa. Listen, I don't want to be too harsh here on Jerry Jones. He's a power player in the NFL. I get it. But I am a thousand percent siding with Micah Parsons here. A thousand? It's not even close. I got to pick up for the little man in this discussion with a billionaire. Jerry, this isn't your first rodeo, you know that's not how negotiations work. You can't just do a have a side deal with the player and then it goes to the agent. Ah, not going to happen. That's just not how it works. Now, Jerry's been down this road before. Deal with Dak was a disaster. Strung it out to the last moment. Deal with CD Lamb did not go well. That was ugly. But Jerry gets it on some level. We are now in an attention economy, right? That's what it's all about. Are you talking about Dallas? Yes. Is Jerry going on Michael Irvin's podcast? I didn't even know Mike had a podcast. Maybe that's new. Congratulations, Mike. And yeah, Jerry's making the rounds and he's just talk about us. We're Dallas. Please keep us in the news. And then as many people suspect, a deal will get done at the last moment. Chris Jones, you guys remember with the Chiefs a couple years ago, he. Or maybe it was last year, whenever they played the Lions in week one, he missed the game and it was like, okay, we got to get the Chris Jones deal done. But what's different is Chris Jones had made a lot of money. Micah's still on his rookie deal, and Jerry said something last week about how, hey, we've got him under contract for three more years. That sounds like he's pretty dug in. If you're a Dallas fan and you love Micah Parsons, I'm going to go ahead and guess he's the best selling jersey on the Cowboys. If it's not number one, it's two or three. It's right there at the top. You're starting to alienate your fan Base a little over. What a contract? Really? You were going to make him the highest paid, and now you're not because the agent's getting involved. Like, I'm just hopeful, folks, that this is the last, last we're going to hear of this and Dallas, both sides come to the table and get a deal done. However, if you want to go back to this Emmett Smith situation, which is slightly different because he was a free agent, but he was at the height of his powers. The Cowboys were a juggernaut in the mid-90s, and Emmett, remember, sat out the first two games of the season waiting for a deal, ended up getting it after they went 02. What happens if the Cowboys get smashed in week one with no Micah Parsons? Does Jerry capitulate or does he say, we've got him for three more years? Well, Micah, you know, he could bring in an independent doctor and say, oh, my back. I can't go. Hey, can't play. And this gets really ugly. Now, it could already be a lost season for Dallas, but can't we all just get along? I mean, I'm hopeful. I'm really hopeful. The Cowboys, we need stars like Michael Parsons in this league. So, Rachel, I don't know. We'll see. I'm really rooting for Micah to get it done, but this. This negotiation looks kind of ugly.

[Rachel Nichols]

It feels different than some of the other ones you mentioned. Right there. Feels like there's more bad blood here. And the Cowboys have an advantage. They've got two years of franchising they can do after this year, which is the last year on his contract. So Jerry has said we got three years to work this out. So Micah's not in the power position here. And if he just continues to sit out and sit out, it'll cost him money if he can't get a medical excuse. And even if he can, this is years off his prime years of his career. It's a big deal.

[Jason McIntyre]

And he didn't make that much in nil because it was a Covid years and stuff. I'm rooting for you, Micah, but it's an uphill climb. Be sure to catch live editions of the Herd, weekdays at noon Eastern, 9am Pacific on Fox Sports Radio. FS1 and the iHeartRadio app.

[Fox Sports Radio Announcer]

Hey, it's Steve Covino.

[Mike Jones]

And I'm Rich Davis, and together we're Covino and Rich on Fox Sports Radio.

[Jason McIntyre]

You can catch us weekdays from 5 to 7pm Eastern, 2 to 4 Pacific on Fox Sports Radio. And of course, the iHeartRadio app.

[Fox Sports Radio Announcer]

Why should you listen to Covino and Rich.

[Jason McIntyre]

We talk about everything. Life, sports, relationships, what's going on in the world.

[Mike Jones]

We have a lot of fun talking about the stories behind the stories in the world of sports and pop culture. Stories that, well, other shows don't seem to have the time to discuss. And the fact that we've been friends for the last 20 years and still work together, I mean, that says something, right? So check us out. We like to get you involved too. Take your phone calls, chop it up as they say. I'd say the most interactive show on Fox Sports Radio, maybe the most interactive.

[Jason McIntyre]

Show on planet Earth.

[Fox Sports Radio Announcer]

Be sure to check out Covino and Rich live on Fox Sports radio and.

[Mike Jones]

The iHeartradio app from 5 to 7pm Eastern, 2 to 4 Pacific.

[Jason McIntyre]

And if you miss any of the live show, just search Covino and Rich.

[Mike Jones]

Wherever you get your podcasts. And of course on social media, that's.

[Fox Sports Radio Announcer]

Covino and Rich.

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[Jason McIntyre]

Welcome back, our number two here on the Herd. A beautiful Monday morning Los Angeles. It's a bit of A heat wave out here. It touched 80 over the weekend. We're in the South Bay. Brutal. What are we going to do? Jason McIntyre in for Colin Coward, joined by Rachel Nichols telling us Brett Favre lawn stories. I love it. She's got a lot of good stuff.

[Rachel Nichols]

Cover the NFL for more than a decade. There's a lot of good stories buried.

[Jason McIntyre]

In there for sure. Goodness. We got Mike Jones of the Athletic coming up. I, I. The Sam Roger stuff I was thinking about on the elevator ride. I'm. I'm not going to fire we touched on earlier. We'll get to Aaron Rodgers here shortly, but I want to start briefly with a team and a player near and dear to Colin Cowherd, and that's Caleb Williams of the Bears. Listen, the preseason has basically all the oxygen has been sucked out by like four guys. Micah Parsons, Shador Sanders, Caleb Williams definitely leading the charge. Aaron Rodgers is distant third or fourth. But this Caleb Williams stuff is just. I don't, I don't know what to make of it. Again, two years ago, the talk was, okay, he could be the face of the NFL in four years. We get so freaking excited about these guys for one season of college football. Some dynamic throws. Caleb Williams, he was awesome at times for usc. Then he fell into, like, the backyard quarterback stuff and now he gets a good coach and we're expecting greatness. And the last month has been anything but great from Caleb Williams and cryptic stuff from Ben Johnson. All right, I'm not going to be out here hammering Caleb Williams again. Last week I mentioned Johnny Manziel and all the sicko fans in Chicago, like, came after me. Folks, listen to Ben Johnson after their preseason game against the Chiefs. You listen to this offensively.

[Mike Jones]

First two possessions was really sloppy football that, you know, has plugged us in and out of camp so far. It is disappointing to me offensively for sure because that's, I thought that we kind of worked our way out of that. The first quarter was really any indication. It's not good enough. So we got to get better in a hurry. But, yeah, we got to make sure that we start faster on offense and on defense.

[Jason McIntyre]

Oh, boy. Now listen, this is his first rodeo as a head coach. OC in Detroit behind walk around guy Dan Campbell, who we will get to. Interesting story on Campbell later in the show, but is Ben Johnson coming in a little bit hot here? A lot of veiled comments about Caleb and I don't want to, I don't know Caleb. I've never spoken to him, but I don't want to presume his psyche. But there were some things we saw in college, hey, maybe he was a college kid where he didn't exactly react great when things were not going his way. And I'm going to play a clip for you here about Ben Johnson. Talking about someone. But before I play it, we're running highlights from their Chiefs game. The very first play was a fumble with Caleb Williams under center. Now it was on the handoff, but still, that's not crisp. That's sloppy, bro. You're a second year quarterback, you're face of the franchise. Bears fans are like, oh, is he going to throw for 4,000 yards? Who cares? Can we get the snap and the cadence down? Okay, so here's a quote. Listen to Ben Johnson. I'm not going to tell you the answer until the end, but think about who he's talking about here.

[Mike Jones]

I've really been blown away by his approach from the spring to the start of camp to where we are now. He does a tremendous job knowing what to do, how to do it and in getting it done.

[Jason McIntyre]

Okay, it's, he's not talking about Caleb Williams. He's gassing up his backup quarterback. As Rachel said, first hour, the backup quarterback is always the most popular guy in town. That's Tyson Bagen, whose father was like a proclaimed arm wrestler. And oh, by the way, Baja just got a new deal, huh? Why are you giving a backup quarterback who I, I mean, I, I, I'm not of the belief that he's like one of the elite quarterbacks in the league, but that had to raise some eyebrows in the Caleb Williams camp. No paying this backup. I, it's my job. Yeah, we get that, but we want some insurance. That's not a good sign. Now again, this is all preseason. Maybe the live bullets start firing and Caleb is unbelievable, but I've got my doubts folks. I'm not gonna lie. Be sure to catch live editions of the Herd weekdays at noon Eastern, 9am Pacific.

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[Jason McIntyre]

All right, let's bring in Mike Jones from the Athletic covers the NFL. Covered the NFL for the last 15 years. Worked at the Washington Post. Someone here knows that. Someone here read that newspaper growing up and someone here worked for that newspaper. Mike, how are you, man?

[Mike Jones]

I'm doing well. How are you guys doing this morning?

[Jason McIntyre]

You know, I, I can't complain. It's Monday. Football's almost here. We're 10 days away from the opener. I do have to ask though, you know, you do a lot of podcasts, you're going on a lot of TV radio shows. Are you surprised by the amount of questions about Shador Sanders, a fifth round pick who is fourth on the depth chart? Like he, he's the topic du jour in the NFL.

[Mike Jones]

Yeah, I mean, I have written a lot about him, you know, coming out of the draft and there's been just a huge buz the Sanders and him and also his brother as well. And you know, yeah, I was talking to somebody just this morning and about all the, just the scrutiny that is surrounding him and the Browns and the handling of him. And I'm like, you know, when you really think about it, this is a fifth round pick. Like, we don't really talk about fifth round pick quarterbacks and yeah, their opportunities are limited. But this isn't a normal 5th round pick. This is a guy that we thought would go a lot higher and who's skill set we are led to believe is, you know, much better than a regular 5th round pick. So again, the brand, the name, everything has just made this a bigger deal. He is, I'm putting together my list of 25 most intriguing players entering the 2025 season. And I'm not going to, you know.

[Jason McIntyre]

He'S probably on that list, probably top five. That was interesting. You use a word, Mike. You said brand. A rookie quarterback who was taken in the fifth round has a brand. I'm trying to think Josh Allen, when he came into the league from Wyoming what was his brand? Did Patrick Mahomes have one out of Texas Tech? Like the fact that he has a brand, like, great for him. But I don't know that that's actually what you want your quarterback having coming out of college, is it?

[Mike Jones]

Well, I mean, this is a new even, you know, a new age even from when Josh Allen and when Patrick Mahomes were coming out. Yeah, they didn't have brands. You know, there wasn't the whole. There was social media, but not the level that it is now where guys have YouTube channels and nil deals and all kinds of things like that. You know, this guy's got a Hall of Fame football coach, father, you know, and so football player turned football coach as a father. So yeah, there's a whole lot more with here. But I think that the thing that is most important is does he have a work ethic? You know? Yeah, he's got a brand. Does he have a work ethic? Does he have, you know, teachability and all those things, the athleticism, everything it takes to be an NFL player. As long as you have that, then teams don't care if you have a brand. But, you know, you're talking about Caleb Williams. He certainly, you know, had kind of a brand coming out. And, you know, it's not always about that stuff. It's what you can do on this higher level than what you were in college.

[Jason McIntyre]

You're right. It is kind of a new era. I think Johnny Manziel probably had a brand. Is that fair to say, coming out of A and M? I don't know if it was a good brand. Right, but it was a brand.

[Mike Jones]

Yeah, there were. There was a kind of a cult following type of thing about him. You know, I don't think it's quite the whole, you know, is the same level as Shadors, but yeah, kind of like that.

[Jason McIntyre]

Trevor Lawrence, kind of a. He's in. Is he a bust or not? Cat? But I don't think he has a brand. He just hasn't been a good quarterback. I mean, he's not in jeopardy of getting benched. But let's spin it forward. A. Do you think the Browns keep Shador? Do you think they. Is it possible? I floated the idea of trading him to the Raiders, just getting him off the roster, getting whatever. You can just take a seventh round pick. They'll take the loss. I don't know. What's your guess for Shador week one?

[Mike Jones]

No, I mean, I think that he's on the team. I'm not saying that he's going to be active in Week one, but I think that he's going to be on this team. There are still people in that building who really believe in his potential. And look, if he's not ready, it's okay. They have a really tough stretch of their season here. To open the schedule. You would be much more comfortable with Joe Flacco going up against some of those defenses, like, you know, in Detroit and Green Bay and Baltimore. Why throw a rookie to the wolves like that? But there's also questions about the handling of Shador and the developmental plan and if the Browns are all on the same page on how to get him ready, you know, and so there are questions about that, but I think that, yeah, he's going to be on this team. We'll see what the progress is. I wouldn't be surprised, you know, late this year we wind up seeing him on the field. It wouldn't surprise me at all.

[Jason McIntyre]

Interesting. Let's go to Aaron Rodgers briefly. Hopefully only briefly. He kind of was talking on a podcast with DK Metcalf and, and DK Metcalf floated, hey, maybe, maybe you're staying beyond this year. You know, maybe we'll run it back. And Aaron Rodgers said, maybe. Mike, what are we to take of Aaron Rodgers at this point? I mean, we haven't even got to the him versus Arthur Smith stuff that's going to bubble up inevitably. But like, where are you on Rodgers in Pittsburgh? Are they. Is he going to make your most intriguing list? Yeah, look, he.

[Mike Jones]

Everything is great right now. I was up there for training camp in Latrobe a couple of weeks ago and you know, he's talking about loving, like remembering how to play video games and playing cards with the guys and connecting and being in this, you know, backed with a stable, storied franchise, kind of like in Green Bay with the head coach he really respects and all that stuff. But there are no bullets are flying yet. And so we'll see what happens when that offensive line struggles to protect him and the run game is just kind of meh and, you know, can this defense provide the backing it needs? Seems like they've added pieces like Jalen Ramsey and Slay, and they retained TJ Watt and extended him. But still, there are a lot of questions here. And so I even wrote about that, like, hey, the feel good vibes are good, but that's going to take way more than that. And it's more to do what's around Aaron Rodgers that's going to say how successful this is. And just like you Said we saw it in New York, everything was great. And then when things started getting hairy, there was finger pointing and Rodgers was not afraid to pull back the curtain and call out dysfunction. And so we could see that happen in Pittsburgh. Yes, we think of them as really stable under Mike Tomlin, you know, nose losing seasons. But if this thing is not playing out really well, we could see a frustrated Rodgers definitely air some dirty laundry.

[Jason McIntyre]

Oh, can't wait for that one. Let's go to Washington. Terry McLaurin just got his new deal today. Three years, 96 mil. Happy for Washington. Rachel has some concerns about the defense. I am a little skeptical. I grew up in the D.C. area. A lot of my buddies are like doing that again run to the NFC championship would be difficult. You wrote a piece on Daniels last month that I thought was a good one. I'm curious your thoughts on Washington. Can they even come close to duplicating last year's heroics?

[Mike Jones]

That's going to be tough. You know, they came out of nowhere. Now they're on everybody's radar. They can't sneak up on anybody. I think the moves that they've made in the off season, Adam Peters and Dan Quinn, as they put this thing together, the roster is definitely is better as a whole. But that doesn't mean that they're going to have a better season. To have a better season, they basically have to get back to the FC Championship and get to the Super Bowl. That's the only way you top that now you have expectations, you know. So I still think they can win 10 games, but that doesn't mean that they're going to wind up making a deeper playoff run. I still think that Philadelphia winds up winning that division. They just are so strong top to bottom. But it's going to be interesting for Washington how they continue to evolve. What do they do to stay a step ahead of the defenses? Cliff Kingsbury and Jaden Daniels, I think they have the potential to have a really good season again, but again it's a tougher season, tougher schedule of games, tougher competition. So it'll be hard to surpass last year.

[Jason McIntyre]

Yes, specifically that defense like Jaden Daniels just kept bailing them out last year. I think they had five or six wins in the final minute or what have you. I'm looking at that front seven and it's like that is toothless, like they got old dudes and kind of not to be disrespectful, just non factors. I mean Marshawn Lattimore hasn't been healthy in half a decade. So I just don't know how they stop anybody. And they're in a division where the Eagles offense is a juggernaut. Brian Dable is a sharp guy. Malik Neighbors are very good. And let's be real, Dallas has Dak Pickens and CD Lamb. Like that alone is going to give Washington problems. So I don't. Is there a world where they slip back to third in the division?

[Mike Jones]

I do think that they in Dallas will be going back and forth head to head for that number two spot right there. It's possible. I agree with you on your concerns about the defense. They brought in Von Miller, but I don't know that he's really the answer as far as a pass rusher. You know, it's going to take a lot of creativity from Dan Quinn. Once again, Bobby Wagner is a guy who sets a good tone, but, you know, he's not a spring chicken. And that secondary, you know, there are a lot of questions and I don't know. They drafted some young guys and we'll see how they develop, but I don't know that they were really able to take this defense to another level. But I guess they're hoping with Terry McLaurin, Debo Samuel, Jaden Daniels that maybe their offense can put up more points and so they won't have to rely on those close finishes. But that's a lot of ifs.

[Jason McIntyre]

Yeah. Let me ask you, Mike. I missed this news last week while I was out. The Colts decided Daniel Jones is our guy. You know, kind of surprising, but Richardson did not have an inspiring preseason. He's always hurt. Still not accurate. So let's give Daniel Jones props for getting out of Minnesota. Right. He knew he wasn't going to play with McCarthy there gets to a spot where he can play. But what does this do for Richardson? Like, this is kind of. I mean, they drafted him to be the guy and now it's like you can't even beat out Daniel Jones, who, let's be real, is not a good quarterback. Is Richardson's time up in Indy or what are you hearing?

[Mike Jones]

Yeah, no, I think that's very concerning because, look, obviously he was a guy that you knew. Yes, physically, a specimen, had some great college tape, doesn't have a whole lot of college tape. I don't think he's actually had. You know, I think it was a stat that I heard last week that it was. He doesn't even have 2,000 plays yet under his belt between college and the NFL. So it takes a while to develop and so you're hoping that you do the things, all the things, carry yourself like a pro and continue to develop. But from the sounds of things, he was not doing all of those things. That's the reason why last year he got benched, because they were hoping to get through to him and kind of get his attention. And they went to Joe Flacco for a little bit here. And again, the durability is an issue. You know, the coaches say the best ability is availability. And if you're not able to stay on the field, not carrying yourself like a pro, then you're going to go to a guy. And so it's going to be hard to go back to him unless he totally, you know, kind of, you know, gets in line and is doing all the work and growing through practice reps. But that's not the same as game speed. It's going to be tough. Yes. They're going to Daniel Jones. They're going to have to run the ball a whole lot. I think that's the blueprint that the Giants showed a couple of years ago when they made it to the playoffs. Squeaked in there. They relied on Saquon Barkley a whole lot. They didn't put a whole lot on to Daniel Jones shoulders. I think Indy will lean on the run game, lean on their defense, and hope that Daniel Jones can just take care of the football. As you know, you're not going to get a whole lot of touchdown passes out of him because that was definitely not something that he was known for in New York.

[Jason McIntyre]

Yeah. I gotta ask, Mike, just listening to you answer that. I'm just trying to think back. We've seen a lot of these quarterbacks who go top five, top ten. It seems like more than normal in the last, I don't know, five, six, seven years. And they seem to flop in their first spot, but they can thrive afterward. Baker Mayfield comes to mind. Sam Darnold comes to mind. Anthony Richardson. There's others. I'm just wondering, do you think. What do you think this is about? Is it guys are getting overdrafted? Is it we still don't know how to identify quarterbacks. What's the issue?

[Mike Jones]

Well, I think that there's this pressure, okay, we got this guy we need. You know, lots of times they're drafted to bad franchises, right? The guys like Patrick Mahomes, who the Chiefs jumped up to trade and draft him, and then he sat behind Alex Smith for a year and was able to develop. A lot of these are bad franchises, except for, you know, San Francisco. They had Trey Lance, but it wasn't a real developmental plan for a lot of these guys. And they're playing sooner than what they should. They should, okay, if you're going to spend that high pick on a guy, okay, but have a veteran in place, let him start. Let this guy learn. Especially some of these guys like Trey Lance, Anthony Richardson, who don't have a whole lot of college experience. The guys who are three and four year starters, it doesn't happen a whole lot anymore, but those guys are better off coming into the NFL. Like Jaden Daniels had a lot of experience in college and that's why he was able to make a better transition. But so many of these young guys, they're playing sooner than they need to and then the patience is not there because coaches don't have a whole lot of time to save their jobs before owners get impatient and, you know, heads start to roll. And so it's just a whole mess in the way that they're drafting, developing or not developing and playing guys sooner than they should.

[Jason McIntyre]

Yeah, I'm looking at the list. It's not just a Covid thing either. There were, you know, Bryce Young, by the way, this could be his last sh. But there's been other guys and I'm just, you know, you see names like Josh Rosen, Mitch Trubisky. There's no given that even Caleb Williams is going to work out in Chicago. I don't want to be too negative. I know people. Jason, come on. He's going to be fine. Is he, Mike? I can't say for sure. Can you?

[Mike Jones]

No, we can't say for sure. But the thing is, you have to remember he was in such an awful situation last year. Then you have like three offensive coordinators throughout the course of the year. And so. So if you are learning and then everything keeps getting changed and now you have a new coach, you have got to learn a new language, a new way of doing things. I think that this is going to be a year of growing pains for him. But if he can get on the same page and understand and take all the tutoring that the math, the mad scientist that Ben Johnson is, then I think it's possible that we could see him still be okay. It's way too early to pull the plug or to panic, but you have to understand that again, he's having to relearn a lot of things. Last year we saw him get sacked more than any other quarterback in the league. They did upgrade their offensive line, but lots of times he was trying to make something out of nothing, thinking he'd do what he did at usc or he's running around, you know, across the field and back the other way. You know, you got defensive linemen that are faster than that and are going to plant you into the ground now. So you got to learn to get rid of the ball quickly, make good decisions. And that's what he's going to have to understand if he wants to make it in the NFL. And I think it's possible. It's just going to take some time. All right.

[Jason McIntyre]

We could wrap up, you know, for fantasy purposes. Some of us may have three or four drafts this week. Matthew Stafford, what are you hearing on the Rams quarterback? Because there's a lot of people out here in the dark thinking like, oh, it's going to be bad.

[Fox Sports Radio Announcer]

I don't know.

[Jason McIntyre]

Rams, they're not going to the Super Bowl. But there's also a whiff of, hey, man, he's old, he doesn't want to play in the preseason, he's going to be fine. Which side do you fall on here?

[Mike Jones]

I think that you can be cautiously optimistic that, okay, he knows the system inside and out. You know, they're being extra cautious with him because they know that they can't afford for him to, you know, get hurt in the preseason and then be banged up throughout the whole year. But again, if you were in that situation and it's that nerve wracking, it just takes one hit in week one to throw things off the rails. And so we'll see what happens. I thought when we're entering the off season, the way that they finished last year, I thought, okay, the Rams are my pick to win that division. They might make some noise. I'm not so confident now. I'm a little bit skittish just because of what we've seen. We have heard as of late that he has returned to practice. He's not having any discomfort and things, so that's, that's positive. But again, he hasn't gotten hit yet. And so a lot is riding on the health of that back.

[Jason McIntyre]

By the way, they open up against the Houston Texans, who maybe have a top four defense in the league, certainly front four. And they also have Philadelphia in week three, so you're probably on to something. Mike Stafford's gonna get tested early. All right, Mike Jones, the athletic. Great stuff, man. Thanks a lot for your time, Mike.

[Mike Jones]

Alright, thanks for having me.

[Fox Sports Radio Announcer]

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[Jason McIntyre]

Hey, it's Ryan Seacrest for Albertsons and Safeway.

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[Jason McIntyre]

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[Mike Jones]

You got a hoodie on? Take it all.

[Fox Sports Radio Announcer]

I'm Manny. I'm Noah, this is Devin and we're best friends and journal a new podcast called no Such Thing where we get to the bottom of questions like that.

[Jason McIntyre]

Why are you screaming at me? I can't expect what to do now.

[Fox Sports Radio Announcer]

If the rule was the same, go off on me.

[Jason McIntyre]

I deserve it, you know? Lock him up.

[Fox Sports Radio Announcer]

Listen to no Such thing on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Jason McIntyre]

No Such Thing. This is an iHeart podcast.