Best of The Herd

Summary

Podcast Summary: The Herd with Colin Cowherd – "Best of The Herd" (Released March 24, 2025)

The Herd with Colin Cowherd, produced by iHeartPodcasts and The Volume, offers a comprehensive and engaging exploration of today's top sports stories. In the "Best of The Herd" episode, released on March 24, 2025, host Colin Cowherd, alongside co-host Jonas Knox, delves deep into the current landscape of college basketball, the impact of Name, Image, and Likeness (NIL) regulations, NFL draft dynamics, and exclusive interviews with prominent sports figures like Bill Simmons and Rick Pitino. This summary encapsulates the key discussions, insights, and conclusions from the episode, enriched with notable quotes and accurate timestamps.

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1. College Basketball and March Madness Predictions

The episode opens with a heated discussion on the ongoing college basketball tournament. Colin Cowherd and Jonas Knox compare their bracket predictions, highlighting the unpredictability and excitement that March Madness brings each year.

• Bracket Analysis: Colin remarks, "I got 15 of them. I don't know what happened to J. Mac's bracket, but Captain Chalk is coming, baby." ([29:27])
• Sweet 16 Dominance: Jonas emphasizes the strength of power conference teams, stating, "There are no have nots. It's all power conference teams in the sweet 16." ([06:16])

Jonas critiques the current tournament, suggesting a lack of genuine upsets due to the dominance of established programs:

• Impact of NIL: "Nil is actually, actually great for college basketball because it keeps some of the better players in college for another year like a Zach Edie." ([10:50])

However, he also notes a downside, where wealthy programs continue to overshadow mid-major teams:

• Wealth Disparity: "Made the rich richer. Yes. America likes to watch Duke, Kentucky, Kansas, Michigan State, Arizona, more than Drexel, Lipscomb and Woford." ([13:07])

2. The Impact of NIL on College Basketball

A significant portion of the episode is dedicated to analyzing how NIL regulations have transformed college sports, particularly basketball.

• Jonas on NIL: "Everybody thought the NIL going to help the little guy maybe no. Made the rich richer." ([10:50])
• Bill Simmons’ Counterpoint: Bill challenges the prevailing narrative, asking, "Don't you think it's kind of killed Cinderella?" referring to underdog stories in the tournament. ([11:45])

3. NFL Draft and Aaron Rodgers' Situation

Transitioning to football, the hosts discuss the upcoming NFL draft and the intriguing situation surrounding veteran quarterback Aaron Rodgers.

• Rodgers’ Potential Move: "Aaron Rodgers is right. I looked it up this morning... he wanted Minnesota, knew the division, closer to Malibu, closer to home." ([26:47])
• Steeler’s Quarterback Crisis: Jonas critiques the Pittsburgh Steelers' management, stating, "It's their offensive lines of mess. And they may have just lost their best offensive lineman and their best running back." ([27:16])

4. Exclusive Interview with Bill Simmons

Bill Simmons joins the conversation to provide his insights on the state of college basketball post-NIL.

• Simmons on Cinderella: "But I would argue when I say Cinderella, it's a myth. It never existed." ([12:12])
• Skepticism on Mid-Majors: "But there have never been as many [upsets]." ([13:13])

Simmons underscores the challenges mid-major teams face in the current environment, questioning the longevity of Cinderella runs.

5. Exclusive Interview with Rick Pitino and Bruce Pearl

A standout feature of the episode is the extended interview with Rick Pitino, alongside Auburn's head coach Bruce Pearl, offering profound insights into college basketball and its intersection with the NBA.

• Pitino on NBA vs. College Basketball: "The NCAA basketball world and the NBA basketball world at the highest levels have worked that well together... they're competing." ([25:31])
• Bruce Pearl on NIL and Team Building: "If you could add the right pieces at the right time, you can be competitive every year." ([20:31])

Discussion Topics:

• Transitioning Players Post-NIL: Pearl highlights how NIL allows players to develop within college systems longer, benefiting their professional prospects.
• Basketball Analytics vs. Team Identity: Both Pitino and Pearl debate the role of analytics in shaping team strategies versus maintaining a distinct team identity.
  • Pitino on Analytics: "I think the analytics are more about identity than player to player. It's like, what are you trying to be." ([50:34])
  • Pearl’s Take on Team Culture: "We are still a football school. But I also like to say that we're at everything school." ([22:03])

6. Larry Bird Documentary Discussion

The conversation shifts to the cultural and historical impact of basketball legends, particularly Larry Bird.

• Pitino on Bird's Legacy: "There's going to be an episode about how do you stay great when your body's starting to break down... Larry Bird was fighting through injuries and still performing at a high level." ([54:00])
• Jonas' Anticipation: "It's called Celtic City. Episode four tonight. Great hope. The Larry Bird issue. It airs tonight." ([53:54])

The hosts express enthusiasm for the documentary's portrayal of Bird, emphasizing his resilience and influence on the game.

7. Final Thoughts and Predictions

Wrapping up, the hosts reflect on various sports narratives and future outlooks.

• Broadcasting and Media Evolution: Pitino reminisces about the past's limited media exposure versus today's omnipresent social media, influencing how fans engage with sports.
• Athlete Longevity and Expectations: Pitino comments on the unrealistic expectations set by athletes like LeBron James and Tom Brady, highlighting their status as anomalies rather than benchmarks for all athletes.
  • Pitino on Athlete Careers: "LeBron and Brady are generational anomalies. What's supposed to happen is you're supposed to hit your late 30s as a quarterback... athletic decline is natural." ([57:04])

8. Notable Quotes

• Jonas Knox on NIL: "It's not Copenhagen. People don't ride around on bikes all day. Have a second lunch, a siesta. We're busy. We're distracted. You gotta give us familiar laundry." ([13:07])
• Bill Simmons on College Upsets: "You say a lot of things. I love upsets. And people do predictable things. They don't watch the next game after an upset." ([15:17])
• Bruce Pearl on SEC Depth: "The SEC has got seven teams in the Sweet 16... We've got to take it one game at a time, but we definitely feel like the SEC prepared us to make a run." ([22:55])

9. Conclusion

The "Best of The Herd" episode presents an in-depth analysis of the evolving dynamics in college basketball, the profound effects of NIL regulations, and the intricate decisions surrounding NFL quarterbacks. Through candid conversations and expert interviews, Colin Cowherd and Jonas Knox offer listeners a nuanced perspective on contemporary sports challenges and triumphs. The episode not only highlights the shifting power structures within college athletics but also underscores the perennial allure of sports narratives that captivate audiences nationwide.

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For those who haven't tuned into the episode, this summary provides a comprehensive overview of the discussions and insights shared by Colin Cowherd, Jonas Knox, and their esteemed guests.

Transcript

[Colin Cowherd]

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[Jonas Knox]

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[Colin Cowherd]

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[Jonas Knox]

Thanks.

[Colin Cowherd]

Capital One Bank Guy what's in your wallet? Terms apply. See capitalone.com bank capital1na member FDIC thanks for listening to the Best of the Herd podcast.

[Jonas Knox]

Be sure to catch us live every weekday on Fox Sports Radio and noon.

[Colin Cowherd]

To 3 Eastern, 9am to noon Pacific. Find your local station for the [e-mail].

[Jonas Knox]

Or stream us live every day on the iHeartRadio app by searching Fox Sports Radio or FSR. This is the Best of the Herd with Colin Cowher on Fox Sports Radio. Oh, it is a Monday. Sixteen teams left in college basketball and yeah, I got 15 of them. I don't know what happened to J. Mac's bracket, but Captain Chalk is coming, baby. Oh, wow. Yeah, John Calipari did me wrong. Pitino. You know that was the one I lost on Bill Simmons. One hour from now, there's a new Celtics series on HBO Max, which the staff's all into. I'm starting at this week. It's supposed to be great. Colin right? Colin wrong. So JMac spends all year, you know, on this college basketball stuff. I'm an, I'm a casual but I've always believed in just the committee mostly gets it right and well, they've done pretty well. So it's fascinating. The ratings are in for the first weekend viewership for the first day, all time high, by the way. There are no have nots. It's all power conference teams in the sweet 16. So remember the nil. Everybody's terrified with the nil. Nil is actually, actually great for college basketball because it keeps some of the better players in college for another year like a Zach Edie. And then the big brands can cherry pick mid major teams that nobody watches on television and get better faster. Everybody thought the nil going to help the little guy maybe no. Made the rich richer. Yes. America likes to watch Duke, Kentucky, Kansas, Michigan State, Arizona, more than Drexel, Lipscomb and Woford. Who knew? But college basketball diehards through the years and they love the sport and that's great. And it probably, it's a little bit like hey, I, I bought the iPhone first or I knew this band before you did and I know more about college basketball. Those days look like they're over. The mid majors may have an NBA player. Kentucky goes and grabs him, Arizona goes and grabs him. And so the mid majors. Listen, the rest of us common people don't watch a lot of Missouri Valley basketball. I've never said to my wife, honey, let's go out, bottle of Chianti, little Italian romantic dinner. And she turned to me and went, no honey, let's stay home and watch Murray State. Most people don't watch it. They watch the big brands and eventually all these upsets their ratings killers because you end up with McNee State in the next game. So people say a lot of things. I love upsets. And people do predictable things. They don't watch the next game after an upset. So this is why, by the way, the, the movies that are flourishing in Hollywood, big stars stay away from politics, action films. Why are the Oscars dying? Too much politics. They don't acknowledge Tom Cruise. And they talk about movies nobody watches. Stay on the big brands. This is not Copenhagen. People don't ride around on bikes all day. Have a second lunch, a siesta. We'll get to it tomorrow. We're busy. We're distracted. You gotta give us familiar laundry. And so Duke gets a huge rating. I probably made a mistake in my bracket. My dark horse was number four. Arizona. I don't know how long they're going to last. Lucky Oregon missed a lot of free throws last night, but Duke elicits a feeling, whatever that feeling is, outside of the NFL, Baseball, hockey, basketball, college or pro wnba. Look at the WNBA ratings.

[Colin Cowherd]

Why?

[Jonas Knox]

Caitlin Clark, Angel Reese. Angel Reese is a part of that now. Caitlyn's the bigger part. But there's a villain here, a push and a pull. It's Bird and Magic. It's coastal. And so to me, folks, we're distracted. We got to know the laundry. You got to give us big brands. You know, I mean, we're politics. Distract us. Movies, options, beaches, mountains. Pro sports. Canada doesn't have our labyrinth of college options. They're watching their hockey. That's what they're watching. This weekend, the Dodgers Angels was on. And I'm sitting there watching it, and by about the third inning, I'm like, wait a minute. This is back to being an exhibition game. Dodger Stadium looked kind of full in the lower section. I thought, that's kind of a weird opening game against interleague play. I don't really get it. And then I remembered some of the starters are playing. We got so many games on tv. You got to give us the big stuff. Mid majors, see a big brand, stronger than ever. It's good for college basketball. All right, so the first round of the NFL draft, I think it's officially like a month away as of today or yesterday. And it's not a particularly strong draft. It's not a great quarterback draft. But the last couple of years, there have been an abundance of Michigan Wolverines speaking of big brands in the first round. So this year they got a tight end, corner, and two defensive tackles could all go in the first round. And the Pittsburgh Steelers could use some of those players. But the Pittsburgh Steelers staff skipped the Michigan pro day. That's a big deal. They all skipped it to stay home and interview Aaron Rodgers and try to talk him in to becoming a stealer. And he went and he interviewed and he left. And there's no contract. So. And I'll say this, if you do not take quarterback seriously, like Pete Carroll, In Seattle, Geno's good enough. Not really. With that roster, he's not. Sam Howell's good enough. Ron Rivera, not really. Mason Rudolph, good enough, not really. This is Pittsburgh's fault. And by the way, I really do wonder what Aaron's thinking because the Steelers offensive line was bad and then they lost their left tackle. And Najee Harris, who came out this weekend and said, yeah, Pittsburgh's offense, it's frustrating. There's no identity. They also lead the league again in defensive spending and they spent 150 million on DK Metcalf. So they have two needy, combustible wide receivers who sort of have the same game. Both want the ball and they have no quarterback. So I'm sitting there and I'm thinking to myself over the weekend, there's a reason Aaron Rodgers was waiting and waiting. He wanted Minnesota, excellent offensive coach, superstar wide receiver who doesn't complain much. Upgraded their offensive line very well in free agency. Aaron wanted to go to Minnesota, knew the division, closer to Malibu, closer to home. He wanted to go to Minnesota. And what he's doing, he's treating the Steelers like they need him more than he needs them. And Aaron Rodgers is right. I looked it up this morning. Even with California taxes, he's got a net worth probably $300 million. First ballot, hall of Famer, 41 year old guy with a lot of interests. I've said this before. Minnesota, I would have stuck around for Giants. Was interesting because of the coach and left tackle and weapon. I think Pittsburgh is fool's gold for a quarterback. Go ask Russell Wilson. It was a mess by the end of the year. Go ask Mason Rudolph, old Big Ben. It's fool's gold. The Steelers are 29th in touchdown passes with a variety of quarterbacks since 2021. Think about this, that's fewer than the Patriots, the Raiders and the Bears. I mean, come on now we're getting into Carolina categories. So I think Aaron Rodgers, if he signs anywhere, it will be Pittsburgh. But I think there's a reason people wait to take a job offer because they have questions. It could be my kids, it could be your kids, it could be you, it could be Aaron Rodgers. He's sitting around, he's like their offensive lines of mess. And they may have just lost their best offensive lineman and their best running back. And I met with a coordinator, he's fine, not special. It's a defensive culture tone, deft offense and two wide receivers that are talented. But both want the ball and both have proven to be combustible. So in this Instance, I think Aaron's on the right side. I think he wanted to go to Minnesota. He would consider San Francisco if the Brock Purdy thing didn't work. I think he wants to keep his options out there. I don't think that's necessarily a bad plan. But just to give you a sense, Pittsburgh kept all their staff home instead of going to the Michigan Wolverine pro day. And they have four first rounders and they could certainly use some help. So that's where we stand today. J. Mac, Bill Simmons in one hour calling. Right, Colin? Wrong. You know, people said there weren't a lot of upsets and it was a boring tournament, but I will say this, that I thought. I mean, I guess Arkansas beating St. John's is an upset, but Arkansas got off to a really bad start this year with Calipari. It's a new coach, new staff, new players. They played very well at the end of the year. So it's not a huge upset. The SEC is so stacked that Arkansas in the middle of the pack is actually a team capable of getting to the Elite Eight.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah, they worry me, man. That's a. That's a pretty damn good team. I will say, I like your flex to start the show. 15 of 16 sweet 16 teams, well done. But Colin, your take on the transfer portal nil. Don't you think it's kind of killed Cinderella? I mean, if you're good at a small school for one year, you're gone. The big guys are gobbling you up. There will not be another Steph Curry in college basketball. That's not happening. The Davidson thing. Yeah, the fau. Those runs are done.

[Jonas Knox]

That's right.

[Bill Simmons]

As soon as you're good, you can.

[Jonas Knox]

Win a game, maybe get lucky in two. But I would argue when I say Cinderella, it's a myth. It never existed. Well, Villanova beat Georgetown. No, that's right in my wheelhouse. They were a tough matchup for Georgetown. Rolly Massimino, who I covered in Vegas, told me. He goes, we were. We didn't want anything to do with St. John's we didn't match up with them. We played them twice in the Big east and they crushed us.

[Bill Simmons]

But they had a couple pros on that Villanova team.

[Jonas Knox]

That's what I'm saying. That's considered the all time Cinderella. Rolly Massimino told me when I used to host his co. I hosted his coaches show in Vegas. He goes, we love Georgetown. They were physical. We had an NBA center and in Pinckney, we could slow it down. I thought I could go toe to toe with John Thompson. We had no fear of Georgetown. St. John's crushed us. So that's considered oh, the Villanova story. Villanova had pros.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah, those are big schools. I'm talking like a George Mason. Remember when they made the run to the final four? That ain't happening. V by the way, those things.

[Jonas Knox]

Go ask a sports fan and name three players on George Mason. Yeah. So that this idea that we watched for for Cinderella. No. CBS and tnt. CBS has done a great job to sell that mythology, but it's untrue.

[Bill Simmons]

And what do we see all weekend? The McNE state team, they get one win in the tournament over and it was like o these state, their manager, all this stuff and then it poof, it's gone and they're done.

[Jonas Knox]

Remember? So last week everybody, everybody was on UC San Diego beating Michigan.

[Bill Simmons]

They were so close.

[Jonas Knox]

So I watched Michigan the week before play, you know, Big Ten games. I'm like, Michigan's got like two seven footers.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah.

[Jonas Knox]

UC San Diego's not going to be able to just going to dump the ball low, dominate the glass. So there'll still be upsets, but there have never been as many. There was a shock of smart. Was it VCU team again, you get a hot coach, a hot team, they get kind of a friendly bracket. But this idea, that's why we watch. It's not. That's not why we watch. We watch for the Michigan's and Dukes and Carolina. I mean last night I'm watching Oregon and Arizona. By the way, I watched, I watched the entire UConn Florida game. You know why? Because it had a bunch of NBA players and great coaches and it was by the way, I thought UConn outplayed them. But then Florida dominates the last three minutes, makes all the big plays and. But, but the reason UConn in Florida was so good and the reason we love College football because UConn Florida looked a little bit like NBA basketball.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah.

[Jonas Knox]

You had shot makers and size and physicality. And so again there are just things we people say I'm going to work out, I'm going to lose £20. Maybe with Ozempic you will, but you never lost it at the gym. People say a lot of things, but they do very predictable things. And we don't watch Missouri Valley Conference basketball and we don't watch March Madness because of that.

[Bill Simmons]

We like dominant teams. Who's winning around sports. Bost Celtics absolutely loaded. Philadelphia Eagles stack team. All like the great teams are dominating right now. You're not really seeing these major upsets in sports at all right now.

[Jonas Knox]

All you can hope for if, if you're a bad franchise, the Indiana Fever is that you land Caitlin Clark.

[Bill Simmons]

There you go.

[Jonas Knox]

Yeah. I mean that's really it. Or if you're Oklahoma City in a small market, you get SGA about la.

[Bill Simmons]

Dodgers spend the most money, win the.

[Jonas Knox]

World Series greatest get upset with it. This is, this is wrong with sports. Yankees, Dodgers went through the roof ratings wise. Yeah. So the more social platforms we have, the busier we get, the more distracted we get. I mean, I say this about streaming. I watch Netflix. Yeah. You know the first thing I go to out of the football season. The big dog. Yeah. It's not against Hulu, hbo, Max, we'll give them love today. I watch stuff on that Apple tv. But, but it's even with streaming, I just go right to the big brands that I've known forever. That's where I go. Be sure to catch live editions of the Herd, weekdays at noon Eastern, 9am Pacific on Fox Sports Radio, FS1 and the iHeartRadio app.

[Colin Cowherd]

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[Colin Cowherd]

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[Jonas Knox]

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[Colin Cowherd]

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[Jonas Knox]

Auburn to win the Natty last week and I told Tom Izzo that and I think I told Mark Few that. And one of the reasons is I like their coach. They got multiple guys that can score and they have an elite shot maker so they can play from behind. I think there are certain teams in this tournament. Michigan may be one, Michigan State may be one. They're very, very good teams. I'm not sure they're built to come from way back. Bruce Pearl, it's already been 11 years at Auburn. He's built a power four time coach of the year. So you know Calipari's joking about this Nil Portal stuff. He was funny about that. He. The portal. Oh, it opens today for your five starters are from the Portal. So it's obviously something you're comfortable with. You've been at smaller schools, you know the talent. Is it one of those things? It drives you nuts but you know you can. You're not going to complain or do you kind of lean into the portal and all the challenges of it.

[Bruce Pearl]

Well, Colin, great to be with you. Look, you got to, you got to adjust to the rule changes and the portal and Nil are here, they're here to stay. And so you got to find a way to navigate within the framework of that. For me, I don't mind the portal at all. And yet so much of my team are guys that have been here four and five years. That's been the foundation and that's what our culture is. But if you could add the right pieces at the right time, you can be competitive every year. For me, I typically don't like somebody else's mistakes. I really like guys in a portal that come from mid major or division two or junior college. Guys that are humble and hungry and just want an opportunity having, you know, worked at it a little bit. Now they're ready to play at the high major level. And that's, that's been the secret sauce for Auburn.

[Jonas Knox]

So I said this in January. I'd watched SEC basketball and I said on the air twice, I said, I don't know if you guys are watching this, but the middle of that conference could be better than everybody else's top. So, you know, the nil. I would argue that a lot of the SEC schools are not in big rich markets. But yet when I watch SEC basketball, you're all stock with talent. Is that just the geographic footprint, the high school coaching, the money? Why is the SEC suddenly so deep?

[Bruce Pearl]

That's a great question. And you hit the nail on the head, Colin. Everybody in the SEC is invested. It just means more. And I said this at the beginning of the season as we were out there in recruiting and we were competing. What was going to make the SEC really special and really deep this year and really difficult to win is that the teams at the bottom of our league are investing very similarly to the teams in the middle and the top of the league. There's just not that much difference. And Colin, I think if you looked at, look at the national champion in football and the teams that got there at the very end, they were the teams that were committed in the nil area when I mean committed, you know, $20 million rosters. If you look at this year's Sweet 16, I think you'll find very much that is very much the case. I'm happy that the SEC has got seven teams in the Sweet 16. Not that it needed to validate what we did during regular season because what we do did with the regular season was real. We earned the teams that we got. But I'm glad this many teams advanced that we don't. That way we don't have to put up with the argument that we were overrated.

[Jonas Knox]

You've come into this tournament. I mean, for years and years I thought of Auburn as a football school and I don't anymore. I think of Bruce Pearl. That's the first thing I think of with Auburn I think of Charles Barkley and Bruce Pearl and you're that you've done that. So it's interesting.

[Bruce Pearl]

We are still a, we are still a football school. But I also like to say that we're at everything school. You know, we did. We won the national championship in men's golf, our women's golf team with the elite eight. Our gymnastics team in ranked softball is amazing. And Hugh freeze, mark my words, is going to get it done in football. You make a lot of progress this year. So listen, I'm glad when you think of Auburn, you think of me and Charles. That's a great, great compliment. I just hope that I'm worthy of your picking Auburn to win the whole thing. You realize we got to go through Michigan, Michigan State, Ole Miss and then all the other chalk that's still alive in the sweet 16.

[Jonas Knox]

You know, I said this earlier. I watched Florida, UConn, boy, that that was a game. And I said I think Florida benefited from UConn's physicality. I don't think they'll play a more physical team the rest of the way. And I like Florida. They got really hot late. Everybody's got Florida winning for somebody that knows them well. I watched him yesterday. I thought UConn outplayed him for big chunks of that game. Were you shocked that UConn gave them that much?

[Bruce Pearl]

Yeah, I was surprised, you know, not, not, not because Coach Hurley can't put together a game plan and beat anybody on any given Sunday. It's just that you're right. UConn was able to match Florida's physicality. And Florida is the most physical team, I think in the country with the deepest and the best guard play. I mean Clayton is, is going to be the best guard on the floor. Almost every single night he takes the floor, particularly on the offensive end. So yes, I was surprised that Florida, you struggled as much as they did with UConn. But look, UConn's a two time national champion and they were, they played with great pride and not many people were picking them. I still think right now Florida is playing the best of anybody in the country. I think Duke is also has demonstrated they played, you know, some great basketball. But look, we just got to see who can, who can stay hot and who can manage to navigate them one at a time. For Auburn, we've got these two seven footers at Michigan that are both really skilled and really physical and they're obviously really, really good. And coach Maze, I mean he's one of the best young coaches in college basketball. So we'll look, we'll take it one game at a time, but we definitely feel like the SEC prepared us to make a run.

[Jonas Knox]

You know, it's. Juni Brooms obviously played great. It's. You've got shot makers. That gives you a chance to win a title. I said this earlier. I. I think Adam Silver is very good as a commissioner of the NBA. I think he's marginalized college basketball. They thought, you know what, we'll just go to the G League. We don't need college basketball. My take is that is a huge mistake. College basketball between the brands, March Madness. Also, I think the coaching's better in college basketball than the G League. I would argue NIL does you a favor that you may be able to keep a kid one more year. And I. I do feel like the NBA kind of like, nah, we don't need college basketball. I think the ratings prove it. Did. Did you always feel that. That you were kind of almost. There were a rival. The NBA was almost a rival to college basketball?

[Bruce Pearl]

Yeah, I not been asked that question. And I don't like to be criticized. I'm not critical of any. My grandfather said if you don't have something nice to say, don't say it. But I don't know that the NCAA basketball world and the NBA basketball world at the highest levels have worked that well together either as it relates to developing our game exposure. In fact, I think in many ways we've been competing and I think now with the Nil, we are absolutely able to compete with the NBA. The kids are better off being in their teens and their 20s in college, continuing to develop and being able to be compensated for their value and their worth versus having to go into the G League and play on a team with a bunch of guys that don't want to be there and, you know, and rush the development. Look, Colin, it's not how much you make, it's how long you can make it. That's what I tell kids. Look, you're going to get rich when you sign your first contract, but you're not going to get wealthy until you sign your second or third. So the question is, when is it best for you to go into the league so that when it comes to your second and third contract, your body, your game, your maturity level is ready. I think the quality of NBA basketball will be better and better served if they would stop drafting so much on potential. Like.

[Jonas Knox]

Like there are.

[Bruce Pearl]

There are some great freshmen this year that were on losing college teams. They're going to draft it really high and they're going to be great players but they're not ready right now. So what are you going to do? Put them out there in the NBA where they're not going to play very good basketball or stick them in a G league? As an 18, 19 year old kid, I don't think right now that system's working. Nil gives those guys a chance to stay in college a little bit, get right and get better and they'll be better pros for it.

[Jonas Knox]

Yeah. And I also think there's such value in the community of a college campus. There's a lot of diversity. You gotta go to classes you don't love, you don't always get your way. But it's a community. College campuses are some of the great times in your life. He's Bruce Pearl. Friday it's Michigan. I like Auburn winning but this is a good one. Michigan is NBA big. So Bruce, I appreciate it as always. Thank you. And you built a powerhouse and good luck to you.

[Bruce Pearl]

Thank you Colin. We'll talk to you again soon.

[Jonas Knox]

All right. Bruce Pearl, 11 years at Auburn, four time SEC coach of the year. See this? His feeling is mine which is the NBA kind of worked against you. I've said this. If my kid was a college basketball player I'd rather you take some classes, get coached hard in college, not go to the G league. In most of the coaching's hit and miss in the G League. The training staffs are hit and miss. There's no marketing college players. I've talked to Mark Few at Gonzag College players get treated great and now they get paid great if they're excellent players. So by the way, I know you're excited about this. As a Jets fan I don't know if this caught your attention. Jameis Winston signed a two year deal with the Giants.

[Bill Simmons]

I'm excited about that. So what does that mean? Does that mean that they are drafting a quarterback in the first round regardless of who's there or second round?

[Jonas Knox]

I mean they have to take. Yes, yes.

[Bill Simmons]

So who's their head coach next year? Because it's not Brian Dable. Well, there's no way he's surviving with Jameis Winston and or a second.

[Jonas Knox]

Well, especially if you don't have your offensive line. Right. And the Cowboys and the Eagles will have pretty good pass rushes. Jameis throws a lot of errant balls so it'll be a turnover plug season.

[Bill Simmons]

Now when does Malik Neighbors. Have you checked his social media to see if he what his thoughts on this this acquisition? It was Like Aaron Rodgers, maybe. Oh, no, we got James Winston. It's like, oh, well, it's Colin. We're going to a big steak dinner. We're going to Outback, you know, like that.

[Jonas Knox]

That's what this feels like for a lot of people. That's wonderful. Let me just say this. The New York Giants, in their franchise history had never lost 13 games. They've now lost 13 games three times in eight years. And it's just a series of egregiously bad moves. I mean, Bill Simmons next hour. The reason the Celtics are good, Brad Stevens and Danny Ains are basketball savants. Yeah, they made really good decisions on coaches, really good decisions on draft picks. Danny made really good decisions when to move off stars at the right time.

[Bill Simmons]

They could have had Markel Fultz in the draft. Remember that? They were like, no, we're gonna, we're.

[Jonas Knox]

Gonna trade back upstairs.

[Bill Simmons]

Take this Jason Tatum guy.

[Jonas Knox]

Upstairs is the difference. I mean, I love Andy Reid and Mahomes, but upstairs is the difference between eliminated early and eliminated late. And the Giants have been a mess upstairs for a lot of years. All right, Colin, right? Colin wrong. Monday show, hour two. Next, be sure to catch live editions of the Herd, weekdays at noon Eastern, 9am Pacific, on Fox Sports Radio, FS1 and the iHeartRadio app. Hey, Steve Covino. And I'm Rich Davis, and together we're Covino and Rich on Fox Sports Radio. You can catch us weekdays from 5 to 7pm Eastern, 2 to 4 Pacific, on Fox Sports Radio. And of course, the iHeartRadio app. Why should you listen to Covino and Rich? We talk about everything, life, sports, relationships, what's going on in the world. We have a lot of fun talking about the stories behind the stories in the world of sports and pop culture. Stories that, well, other shows don't seem to have the time to discuss. And the fact that we've been friends from for the last 20 years and still work together, I mean, that says something, right? So check us out. We like to get you involved, too. Take your phone calls, chop it up, as they say. I'd say the most interactive show on Fox Sports Radio, maybe the most interactive show on planet Earth. Be sure to check out Covino Enriched Live on Fox Sports radio and the iHeartradio app from 5 to 7pm Eastern, 2 to 4 Pacific. And if you miss any of the live show, just search KO Vino and Rich wherever you get your podcast. And of course, on social media, that's Covino and Rich.

[Colin Cowherd]

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[Jonas Knox]

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[Colin Cowherd]

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[Jonas Knox]

All right, it's Monday. Colin right? Colin wrong. Here we go. Where Colin was right. Well, well, well. J. Mac only has 10 teams left. I've got 15 of 16 teams left for the television audience. This is. The staff can vouch for me. This is my bracket. Last week J. Mac and I went toe to toe. We gave our brackets in and I'm only missing one team. Rick Pitino did me wrong but good so far. I'm probably going to pay a dear price for not having Duke win at all. But I think, I think, you know, Duke will have their hands full. I'll leave it at that. Where Colin was right. I've said the Dodgers being villains, great for baseball. I just saw the ratings for the games in Japan. 25 million viewers across all platforms. Most watched baseball game ever in Japan. The second game almost got as many against the Cubs. Folks outside of the NFL, sports needs villains. It's good when the Celtics win. It's good when the Lakers win to the Yankees and Dodgers. Merchandise is off the chain. By the way, those games with the viewers. We're starting at 3am Pacific Time and still did really good numbers where Colin was raw. Well, I have a little feud with John Calipari but he beat Bill Self in round one and Rick Pitino in round two and he deserves credit because this team's had injuries all year. They were bad to start the season. Only finished 8 and 10 in the SEC. But Calipari deserves credit. He is the only coach ever to take four different schools. Only second coach ever. Four different schools this week, 16. Where Colin was right. I said when the U.S. men's Soccer hired Mauricio Pochettino that if they ever lost, they'd blame the coach. Well, we just got shut out by Panama and lost to Canada in the Nations League games. It's our worst finish in a long time and I've said we overvalue our players. We think it doesn't matter who the coach is. Jurgen Klinsmann, Steve Bruce Arena. It doesn't matter. The coach always takes the heat and my knock has been we have some good players but last World cup were way too young, probably still too young to finish as a top four to eight team. But once again we get a new coach after driving one out and it's the same result. We don't have the intensity in big games like we should. Where Collin was right. Brock Purdy reportedly wants dak money. I laugh at all these people telling me he's going to take a pay cut. Team friendly deal. No. Even though he was 1 and 6 against playoff teams last year with more interceptions than touchdowns and had his second troubling injury, he views himself as great. He's been gassed up because he's a seventh round pick. He's never made any money. So he is going to go and play hardball. I've said it. I think Aaron Rodgers privately is talking to the Niners. I could be wrong on this. He may be. If I'm Aaron Rodgers, I don't sign. I sit on the sidelines and wait and watch what's happening with the Niners. Where Colin was wrong. I had St. John's and Rick Pitino in the final four. Listen, I knew they weren't a great shooting team, but a lot of college teams aren't great shooting teams. This is not the NBA. They were awful offensively and here's Pitino after the loss.

[Rick Pitino]

We thought we were championship driven in our minds.

[Jonas Knox]

But I've been disappointed before with this.

[Rick Pitino]

You hate to see us play like that.

[Jonas Knox]

I don't mind going out with a loss. I just hate to see us play.

[Rick Pitino]

That way offensively and you gotta live with it. You put a lot of time and effort. The coaches did. It's just a bit of pill to.

[Jonas Knox]

Swallow where Collin was right. Ah, the SEC has seven teams in the Sweet 16. Florida, Auburn and Tennessee all look good enough to win. Ole Miss rolled number three seed Iowa State. Bama is winning two. I went almost all chalk with SEC teams. I had Arkansas losing to St. John's but in the end said it in January when I watched the sec, I said it two different times on this show. Are you guys watching college basketball? Because it looks like SEC football about five years ago. They just look bigger, longer, faster and more skilled than every other conference difference. Where Colin was right. Najee Harris said it out loud. The Steelers don't have any identity on offense, he said. I'd go to the defensive guys and talk to them but they wouldn't be too much. They couldn't tell me about the offensive line. This is what we've said. It is so crystal clear. That is the NFL pivoted to offense. They led the NFL in defensive spending again. And they are an antiquated offensive culture. That's why I think Najee Harris is one of the great pickups of the off season. Colin right? Colin wrong. Phil Simmons, you know him, the ringer CEO and founder, cultural critic. The Bill Simmons podcast at Bill, he's a very busy guy, so I don't get him very often, but he's got a cool looking. Usually I see you and Rosello doing your thing. So I have not. I'm starting this week. The staff is all caught up. They're singing the praises of your Matt.

[Rick Pitino]

You're not gonna watch it?

[Jonas Knox]

Come on. No, I am. I will, I will. I do. I travel a lot. I watch, I'll watch every episode. First one's Koozie, then Russell. Then it's the Celtics I grew up with, which was 6, 8. Dave Cowan's @ center and Havel's. That's what I grew up with. Then we're going to the one. That's really fascinating, Bert. So I'm gonna ask you this question. To start. When you come up with an idea like this, the day the light goes on, the epiphany to to the series starts because Hollywood, everything's molasses, everything's slow motion. How long is the process from light bulb to show is airing?

[Rick Pitino]

Well, first of all, it's an honor to follow a Naji Harris segment. I was really hoping that would happen in mid March. I know the world's talking about Naji right now, so it's great to be here that it started probably 2020 and it just takes so long to finish deals and it takes so long to find a director and find the behind the scenes team that this was probably a four year process. Plus we're making nine episodes, nine hours of content. And you know, looking back, it feels like a million years ago when we started and it was really hard to do because you're telling, you know, it's one of the most famous franchises in any sport. It intersects with the city of Boston in all these ways and the NBA in America. So it was a pretty ambitious thing. But I feel good about what we pulled off.

[Jonas Knox]

Well, you've also, because of the tragedy to lend bias, there was also another run that could have been and wasn't. You guys could have had your next run. That's right. So you, you could have had a pre Larry Bird. Larry and you didn't. So that's something I've always thought about. Boston is, you know, the Lakers, you know, with, with. With Kobe and Gasol. You could have had another one there. So this is a franchise that could have more. They've had some bad fate. When you as a Celtic fan, look at all the teams, is there one that to you is closest to your heart?

[Rick Pitino]

I mean, the Celtics, because we, we had season tickets. My dad got a ticket in the 73, 74 season, used to carry me in. And then we eventually got two in the late 70s. So I went to the most Celtic games. So I obviously that's that. Personally, just being there, being in the building for some of the best and the worst stuff, I think matters the most. I think what's interesting about the team as a whole is, you know, they mattered the most. They were the most successful franchise in the world for the first 40 years really, until. Until Bias died and then it just dipped and there was this slow process where you're hanging on to the old memories, you're hoping it's going to work out, and then eventually you just become another NBA team. The Garden goes down in 95. They just have this absolute drought where they're not relevant really for nine solid years until the 2002 team. So it's this. It's this once powerful institution that completely falls apart and then eventually resurrects, starting with the KG trade. So that part made it really compelling as a story too. It's. It's nine episodes. But you know, once we get into the. The 90s and the 2000s, it gets. Gets pretty dark. A lot of stuff has happened to this team. So that, that made it great from a storytelling standpoint.

[Jonas Knox]

You know, it's. It's a different world. It used to be that all the NBA guys were fighting for a smaller pie. And so Michael Jordan really did hate the Pistons and everybody. You know, there was real animosity. Now Bird and Magic didn't like each other initially, but over the course of time they had so much respect for each other. But it's interesting. It's a more collaborative basketball world. A you guys all play together. And I've said this about Jayson Tatum. He is a product of what basketball is today. It's not high school rivalries and college rivalries. It's a you basketball. You may not even go to college by the time you get into the NBA. All help each other with charities, your friends and so we can criticize Tatum, but he is a product of this generational basketball players. LeBron doesn't have any enemies. He's never gotten into a fight. They all get paid. So that. So I guess my point is you can't really criticize Tatum when he doesn't have, quote, the instinct. That's what basketball players are today. Is that fair?

[Rick Pitino]

Well, I mean it's funny if you watch the Celtics season this year, they, they've definitely butted heads with a few teams, including the Lakers. I think there was more crap talk during that last Lakers Celtic game than probably the last five years of it. Listen, Collins, Celtics nation is very aware of your Tatum takes. They've, we've heard everybody gets super defensive about him because the guy's having an incredible season. First of all, he won the title last year.

[Jonas Knox]

Yeah.

[Rick Pitino]

This year he's the third best guy in the league. He plays all five positions. Yesterday against Portland he was playing point center with four shooters. He can guard everybody. He's the best rebounder on the team. I think as a decision maker and just as an all around player. This is the best he's ever looked by far. And he's the biggest reason they have a chance to, to win the title again. I think last year you could definitely make the case. It was 1A and 1B with him and Jaylen Brown and they were, they had a great, in a good way, a seesaw thing where they would lift each other up if one guy was down. This year it's been Tatum's season. He's the best guy in the team and other than SGN Jokic, he's been the most day to day impactful guy in the league and he's really durable, which I think.

[Jonas Knox]

Yes.

[Rick Pitino]

You know, both of us have criticized sized NBA players for. You play 65 games and you call it a season and you take like little sabbaticals or you leave or you nurse injuries. Tatum's out there all the time and I think what he has turned into over the last couple years has exceeded any expectation I ever could have had. You, you're basically hoping he could be a poor man's Durant when they drafted him. And now you're talking about somebody that has a chance to be one of the four or five best Celtics ever.

[Jonas Knox]

Yeah. And I also think unlike Durant, he's not a wanderer. Like I could see him playing for this team forever and then, I mean he's just. That's not his personality.

[Rick Pitino]

No question.

[Jonas Knox]

I've said this before there. Look, all basketball players enter every night with an empty canvas. They're all Artists. More than any other sport, basketball players are artists. They spill paint, they have bad nights. Steph Curry has horrible shooting nights. The difference is LeBron is more Bono or Jay Z, where he's a businessman and. And KD is more Pearl Jam. I'm going to sue ticketmaster. Tatum's more LeBron. He's happy, he's content, he's community. It's about business and basketball. So I could see him staying forever, and I think that's good for the Celtics. That's just kind of my.

[Rick Pitino]

That's.

[Jonas Knox]

He's more LeBron than. Than Durant, personality wise.

[Rick Pitino]

Yeah. I mean, that's one of the things our documentary is about. For whatever reason, this franchise, the history of the guys who played for it and the things that have happened and the banners and all the ups and downs and Red Arb and people who are dead. Russell Red, our back, Tommy Heinson. Everybody's basically gone except Koozie and Satch Sanders. But I think the newer guys, when they come in, they really feel that there's something different about the history, the way the generations interact. I think in Tatum's case, some of that circumstance, like, he ended up on the best possible team for him with a city that absolutely loves him. I. I don't know if the Durant stuff is totally fair, because to me, Durant is just a series, and I know I'm always a Durant defender.

[Jonas Knox]

I love him as a player, but I think it's.

[Rick Pitino]

I think it's a series of sliding doors with him. You could argue if they never leave Seattle and that team is still there with. With Westbrook and maybe Harden and a Baca and an owner actually cared about the franchise and kept them in Seattle, which is, you know, one of the most loaded from a money standpoint, cities we have. Maybe he's still there. Maybe he never leaves. Maybe he becomes what Tatum's going to be in Boston. So I think you need luck with this stuff. LeBron didn't have luck in Cleveland because they were always trying to catch up with him in the 2000s. They're always trying to make the team as good as possible, as fast as possible, and sign free agents and make these big trades and just constantly try to chase a title before they were really ready. And eventually he realized, I can't win with this current setup. And he jumps to Miami. Whether you agree with that or not, that was the thinking. I think, with Tatum, he's in a great situation all the way through his 20s and.

[Jonas Knox]

And that's why you stay yeah, no, it's like quarterbacks. Mahomes would win, but he wouldn't win as much without Read and Vetch and the hundred percent. Yeah. I mean, it's where you land at least in the NFL. Feels like for quarterbacks, about 80% of it. I want to ask you about this. So years ago, I coined this. I was very proud of myself. I said, I like analytics. I'm not anti analytics, but I like man analytics. Is that in the end, I need a stop in a bucket. I want a man. I want an alpha. I don't care about. I think a lot of the analytics in the NBA are great for the regular season, but postseason basketball is circumstantial. It's possession basketball. Make a stop. Where are you on analytics? Again, I'm forum. But playoff basketball, it's. It's an alpha sport. That's why I don't trust OKC for another year. It's why I didn't trust Cleveland last year. And I do more this year. The young guys are now more about men. Where are you on basketball analytics?

[Rick Pitino]

I just think everybody has them now. We. We hit a point with baseball when there was an edge. Like that's what Moneyball is about.

[Jonas Knox]

Right.

[Rick Pitino]

And especially the Moneyball movie, which is Joan Hill's character is a fictional person of nine different things. And eventually everyone had the analytics. And then in baseball, then it moved to defense, and then it moved to like, you know, some of the health stuff. And it just kept trying to evolve. I think in basketball, they're all looking at the same stuff. It's better to shoot threes than twos. You want interchangeable athletes. I think teams like OKC in Boston have really set the trend for if we just have long guys everywhere who can shoot and they're interchangeable, and that's what we're doing for four quarters. That's the biggest advantage you can have. I went to OKC Clippers last night. They were missing Jalen Williams and Chad Holmgren. It didn't matter. They still won.

[Jonas Knox]

Yeah.

[Rick Pitino]

And they were. And they had defense. They could switch on every possession on offense, even though sga, he couldn't buy a basket the whole night, but they had just guys sending picks for him constantly. He's creating stuff for everybody. And they have a real identity. And I think the Celtics do too. The Celtics. If you play minutes for the Celtics, you have to be able to shoot. That's it.

[Jonas Knox]

Yep.

[Rick Pitino]

So I think from an analytics standpoint, the analytics are more about identity than player to player. It's like, what are you trying to be? I think the Lakers are struggling with that right now. I went to the Bulls game Saturday night, by the way, Colin, you live in la. You realize you could come to some of these basketball games.

[Jonas Knox]

I was invited by a season ticket holder.

[Rick Pitino]

We don't really see you in the arena studying the action. But. But I went to that Bulls Laker game and the Bulls were just like, we're running this whole time.

[Bruce Pearl]

Yep, We're.

[Rick Pitino]

We're gonna run. Run down your throats and you're gonna die by the third quarter, which the Lakers did. And you see that. And that's a team that. Their identity. Because that Luca trade, they're trying to patch it together on the fly. I want identities in the playoffs, and to me, that's more important than analytics. I think Cleveland is. Is as close to having one as possible. But you saw last week, Kawhi killed him. Kevin Durant killed them. What's Tatum going to do against them when you see these big scoring forwards are able to get whatever they want against them. So, yeah, so I. Do you buy that, though? I'm more of an identity guy than an analytics guy.

[Jonas Knox]

Yeah, I think. I think there are a lot of similarities in sports. What are you. Pitching's all. I mean, baseball is all about pitching. I got better pitching. I win the series. I mean, even Shohei, oh, time. I can have a badge. That's all it's about. It's about. But in basketball and football, what are you. Because I think in crisis, it's just like. It's just like as a parent or as a business, oh, we've got crisis. Everybody in the building has to know, what do we lean on? Where do we go? It's easy when you're playing bad teams. When the Cavs are playing the Celtics, I think the Celtics win because I think they have a greater sense of identity. Even though the Cavs can be more efficient, I think there are times you can argue that they've had better games against Boston. I think Boston has a better sense of what they are in a tie game at 99 with 230 left. And that's why they'll win. I got to ask you this. Well, wait.

[Rick Pitino]

Our friend Marcel and I always talk about this. The difference between regular season basketball and playoff basketball. Because I think a regular season team can have a different kind of success than a playoff team if you. You go to the playoffs and you're only doing one thing. And that can work if you only see a team once. But when you see Them for two weeks. Like, I think this could be a real problem for the Knicks. The Knicks are so Jalen Brunson centric that we're gonna get to the playoffs, and you just see that over and over again for two weeks. You can get used to it. The Celtics with Luca in the finals last year, same thing. They just, they got used to how Dallas is playing and they, they, you know, as the series went along, it was great for them. So I, I think the ability to kind of change Personas, which I think OKC has, I think Boston has, I think Cleveland potentially has, that's the number one thing you want in the playoffs.

[Jonas Knox]

As a Celtic guy in. The show, by the way, is called Celtic City. Episode four, Great Hope, airs tonight. And that's the arrival of Larry Bird, which is again, again, that's in my wheelhouse. You know, I remember I watched the Michigan State when it was Magic and Greg Kelser and it was the Sycamores from Indiana. So that's. That's right in my wheelhouse. The guy that just turned 60. So is there something about Larry? Give me just a taste, because we all know the Larry Bird story and, and, and is. Give me a little aside or a little. A little thought on Larry Bird that don't give away too much, but. But that maybe you didn't even know and then you kind of found out.

[Rick Pitino]

You know, you always see this stuff about when the guys were at their apexes, when they're at their best, especially in documentaries. I've certainly been involved in a few of them. I think it's a really interesting piece of it is when the guy is banged up and past their prime and holding on, and the thing that still makes them great or made them great once upon a time, they can still kind of go back and grab it every once in a while. And that's like. There's basically three straight Bird era episodes coming. And that last episode is about how do you stay great when your body's starting to break down? What does that mean? When do you know when it's time to walk away? And I, I think that's the part that I think people don't remember now with, with Bird, Magic all of a sudden was gone, right? He had the HIV diagnosis and that was it. He retired. We never saw him hit that stage. Jordan left at the absolute peak and then came back and went through it with the Wizards for those last two years. And if you remember, those were really interesting wizard seasons for him, right? His knees were banged up. He was doing it on a lot of memory and was still awesome. So I think with Bird and sometimes it goes terrible, you know like. And especially you see it in football. You've seen it with Aaron Rodgers right now, the last couple years. Right. Just awful. Like it couldn't, the ending couldn't be worse. I think with the Bird one, he's. He's got this 30 pound back brace and he's still able to like kick butt against the best guys in the league during like one of the hardest eras we've ever had for basketball. So I think that part. I think people are going to be surprised how much they forgot about that section.

[Jonas Knox]

Okay. It's called Celtic City. It's supposed to be great. I will watch it. I watch everything. By the way. I just saw.

[Rick Pitino]

I don't believe you.

[Jonas Knox]

No, no, I absolutely watch. I got. I'll bet you anything I'll. I'm going to start watching it tonight. I will watch it.

[Rick Pitino]

All right.

[Jonas Knox]

Okay.

[Rick Pitino]

I would appreciate that. We know you're not going to basketball games in la so you have more time.

[Jonas Knox]

I'm a bowl season ticket holder. I've seen Tatum play live four times. I am. Nice.

[Rick Pitino]

The Bulls are looking good.

[Jonas Knox]

Well, if they get Cooper, they'll be really good.

[Rick Pitino]

A decade of playing appearances for the Bulls. They're. That's it. They're just. They live in the playing. That's all they want. No luxury tax play in and they're happy.

[Jonas Knox]

Okay, so I'm gonna. One football, take one. I think we both have Maggie Harris. No, no, that's. I'm going to save the good stuff for later. One Aaron Rodgers take. And I think you and I are, are kind of agree on this is that there's two ways you can be a quarterback. A great quarterback, you can be Brady, which is great and low maintenance Mahomes, Josh Allen, Lamar Jackson, or you can be great and there is maintenance Cam, Big Ben, Aaron, that group, it never ends well. What it might take is Aaron will probably go Steelers, but deep down he's. He paused because he wanted to go to the Vikings and I believe he wants Brock purdy to demand 60 million. I think he wants to go play for the Niners because he knows the Steelers don't know offense. That's. And I'm not a conspiracy theory guy. That's my conspiracy is deep down he wants to go to the bay with Shanahan. What is your take on this circus that's become Aaron over the last couple years? His fall to the leagues or where you land on it?

[Rick Pitino]

Well, he was washed up last year as a quarterback. I mean, that's. That's a crucial piece of this. He was terrible. He was good. If he had protection when he didn't have protection as one of the worst quarterbacks in the league, I think he likes when people are talking about him. I could see him sticking around and being kind of in the back pocket for if a situation goes wrong with a quarterback or if somebody gets hurt and maybe he'll not. He won't officially retire. And he'll wait and he'll wait, and he'll wait and see what happens. I honestly think Brady, even after Brady retired from the Bucks, I think there was a world for the next two years where he would have come back if something had happened to a qbm, one of the best teams. I think it's really hard for these guys to let go. But I mean, my, my big picture take on this, and it ties in with LeBron and Brady. I think those guys and how successful they. They have been. LeBron is late 30s, into his 40s, and then Brady all the way to 45. I think it's just completely ruined how we should be seeing the end of people's careers. We're expecting these people, when they're 37, 38, 39, to just still be good. And guess what? It's not going to happen. Like, LeBron and Brady are generational anomalies. And what's supposed to happen is you're supposed to hit your late 30s as a quarterback and you're supposed to be washed up, and that's just how it's supposed to go. And in basketball, same thing you're supposed to be. Paul George, 34, 35, guess what? Athletically, you're gonna start slipping year after year after year, because that's how it goes. And LeBron and Brady, because they are such maniacs and they spend 365 days a year getting their bodies ready, and every decision they make was about still continuing to dominate. I don't think it's replicable, and I think it's. I think it's going to cause more bad decisions like the Cousins contract, Rogers, you name it. Some of the basketball stuff that's coming, I just think those guys screwed it up for everybody else, as weird as that sounds.

[Jonas Knox]

One more take. Four years in a row, I have picked a bad team to be good the next year. Washington, last year in Denver, Rams, the previous year, Minnesota. My pick is New England. I said between the money, Gerard Mayo to Vrabel is. You're talking about A different level of coaching. I think Drake May is Herbert. I think they look alike. I think that their, their size, they move. Give me a real. Okay, forget we know you think they'll be better, but I have to know.

[Rick Pitino]

I'm always realistic with my teams.

[Jonas Knox]

Okay? So I think they're a nine.

[Rick Pitino]

And I know you, you and I have both done a good job over the years of identifying possible people. Like I went 275 in my over unders before the season last year. Like I, I'll never top that again. So I must feel like I'm gonna do badly this year because I did too well last year. But my picks were actually good. Whereas I saw your blazing five record. It was pretty bad. My condolences. I'm sorry.

[Jonas Knox]

It was awful.

[Rick Pitino]

I just think, you know, obviously your priorities were out of whack and you just didn't care. We all look forward to you caring more this year and trying to re establish your dominance. But listen, the Patriots recipe is exactly the same as Washington last year. The Washington thing did not make sense. They were in Philly's division. They were in a really loaded nfc. They had all this turnover. Oh, how are they going to do this? But then you look at, it's like terrible coaching staff all of a sudden. They had a good coaching staff. They all of a sudden had a good quarterback the year before. They didn't. They spent a bunch of money on free agents. They did well in the draft and they played an easy schedule. So we know what the recipe is. We look at it every year. I think the Pats, if they can nail the draft and they can figure out left tackle and at least one playmaker. I, I think when you consider how awful the coaching staff was last year I was one of the worst coach teams I've ever had in any Boston sport. You couldn't even believe it week to week how bad it was. So you have Drake, they get a couple blue chippers, easy schedule, they add around. And then you throw in Mike Vrabel, who I think everybody thinks is a top six or seven coach. It's reasonable to go from four wins to 10. Like we, we see it every year where I was like, oh, who saw this coming? We always see it coming. This happens every year and it's always about a schedule and a coach and a qb.

[Jonas Knox]

All right, well, you know, he doesn't return my tax, so I get him about once every seven years. Very busy.

[Rick Pitino]

That's baloney.

[Jonas Knox]

You're very busy. Don't get a lot of time with Bill, that's baloney.

[Rick Pitino]

I'm always. I'm always down for a hang.

[Jonas Knox]

You could invite me to any Laker. Like, I haven't been to Intuit yet, but I'm always available if you want to invite me to something.

[Rick Pitino]

See, this is what I'm talking about. Until it's the best basketball arena ever built and it's relatively close to where you live, and you're like, yeah, I don't know, maybe I'll go one of these times and see what. See, I could go to any game I want. I'll pass.

[Jonas Knox]

Couldn't you acknowledge I've at least moved into wwe? Respecting it now, that was a big bone of contention between us. It's no longer the I've been to two.

[Rick Pitino]

Has the community accepted you, though?

[Jonas Knox]

No.

[Rick Pitino]

You said some mean things way back when there was a Booger eaters. You had that going. You looked down on people. You made people feel dumb about it. Now you're back.

[Jonas Knox]

I don't know if I'm back. I'm just, you know, I'm. I'm more willing to accept that it is just what it is. It's theater. It's fun. Just lean into it and have fun. I was, you know, it wasn't.

[Rick Pitino]

Well, I was trying to tell you forever.

[Jonas Knox]

Look at this.

[Rick Pitino]

Two guys who used to work for the worldwide leader still doing well. Funny how that happens, huh? Everyone says, oh, you can't leave there. Oh, no. Can't leave the worldwide leader. Whole life's gonna fall apart. Guess what? We're fine.

[Jonas Knox]

We've done okay. We've done okay. Okay. It's called Celtic City, episode four tonight. Great hope, period. This is the Larry Bird stuff. So for if you're in your 20s or 30s, you'll remember this stuff. This will be the episode. Is this the one you're proudest of? Is this. Is this the. Is this. I mean, they're all good, obviously. The staff's obviously great. I went and looked up the people working on. Is this one of these? You're really the hit episode.

[Rick Pitino]

I. I honestly, I'm proud of all of them. I think this is. This gets fun because this is the first stretch of episodes where everybody we're interviewing is actually still alive.

[Jonas Knox]

That helps.

[Rick Pitino]

So, you know, because we're going way, way back to the 50s, 60s, and 70s, and sadly, a lot of those people are now gone. So this was. It was nice to get, you know, some. Some people who are still around talking about things that they can actually remember. So, yeah, it's. I I'm really proud of it. And the thing about tonight is Boston versus Philly was the best Boston rivalry of, Of. Of my childhood.

[Jonas Knox]

And.

[Rick Pitino]

And beating the Sixers mattered as much as anything except the Yankees and Canadians, I would say.

[Jonas Knox]

Yeah, I remember.

[Rick Pitino]

So, you know, it's. I had never really seen that captured in the right way. So we, we tried to do it in this episode.

[Jonas Knox]

Yeah, yeah. Great. Sixer teams with Steve Mix and Caldwell Jones and Andrew Tony and mo Cheeks and Dr. J. George McGinnis. People, I always say this. There may not have been a dynasty in the 70s and early 80s until the Celtics Lakers arrived. 70s NBA basketball was fantastic. It was great.

[Rick Pitino]

It was great. Rick Berry was super weird Bird.

[Jonas Knox]

Rick Barry was pre bird bird, grumpy, great shooter forward who didn't get along with some people, but it was a different time. But he was Pre bird bird, 6, 8, guy that could shoot right.

[Rick Pitino]

And there was a lot of mystique for people like us back then because none of the games were ever on.

[Jonas Knox]

That's right. That's right.

[Rick Pitino]

So you followed the league through the basketball handbooks and basketball cards and Sports Illustrated and newspapers and every once in a while there'd be a game on. But like going to games In Boston, the 70s, David Thompson and maybe came once, twice a year, you know, George Gervin, these guys, if you didn't go the one time they were in town, you never saw them again. And now, now everything's so available. Now you can follow the NBA and you don't even need to go to games or watch games. You could follow it on social media and, you know, on. On Twitter. So I, I'm a nostalgic for that era too, because it really, you really had to care and you really had to follow what was going on.

[Jonas Knox]

I was the only kid in the neighborhood that collected NBA cards and not baseball cards. So, you know, I go back to Elmore Smith, Lakers center number three. I go way back. Bill Simmons, CEO, the ringer and the founder as well. Celtic City episode 4 tonight great hope periods. The Larry Bird Issue. It airs tonight on Max. New episode focuses on the arrival of Larry Bird. That is much watch as always. You know, I appreciate when you stop by. You're a busy guy. I appreciate it.

[Rick Pitino]

I appreciate it too. And I don't come in because you do the desk that's higher than the guest chair and I don't appreciate the power play by you. So I'd rather do it on Zoom. But great to see you.

[Jonas Knox]

Totally get it. All right, good stuff, Bill Simmons. That was a long interview for us. We don't do that very often, but there's a lot of stuff to cover. He's obviously an interesting cat and I appreciate that. Yeah, yeah, think about that. They had that absolutely awful Len Bias tragedy. That could have been another, you know, he was out of Maryland. If you didn't see Len Bias playing college number 34, there was just nothing like it. It was a little Dominique Wilkins, little David Thompson. Just wildly. If I could compare him to a football player, it would be Adrian Peterson. Like just bigger, stronger than other players of his generation. Just didn't look the same or play the same. The tragedy and his early death. Or they could have had another long run. This is Nikki Glaser from the Nikki Glaser podcast. Have you guys seen this new commercial from Stand up to All Hate? It's basically Snoop Dogg and Tom Brady going back and forth with reasons that they hate each other. But then when you really listen to them, the reasons for the hate are just so stupid. I don't know. This. This commercial really got me. It's a strong reminder that hate in our country continues to be out of control. So join us at iHeart in standing up to it. If you see hate, speak up, call it out. Your voice is a powerful tool in this fight. You can learn more by following OTs upwithhate.

[Rick Pitino]

We live in a divided country, and our media couldn't be more polarizing. That's why we started the Middle with Jeremy Hobson. It's about bringing voices not from the extremes, but from the vast middle into the national conversation. Each week we hear from ordinary Americans from all over the country. And when you subscribe to the Middle, you also get an episode each week called One Thing Trump did that focuses on just one item from the avalanche of news. Listen to the Middle with Jeremy Hobson on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Jonas Knox]

In 2020, a group of young women found themselves in an AI fueled nightmare. Someone was posting photos. It was just me naked. Well, not me, but me with someone else's body parts. This is Levittown, a new podcast from iHeart podcasts Bloomberg and Kaleidoscope about the rise of deepfake pornography and the battle to stop it. Listen to Levittown on Bloomberg's Big Take podcast. Find it on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Are you hungry?

[American Express Representative]

Colleen Witt here and Eating While Broke is back for season four every Thursday on the Black Effect Podcast Network. This season we've got a legendary lineup serving up broke dishes and even better stories on the menu. We have Tony Baker, Nick Cannon, Melissa Ford, October London and Carrie Harper Howey turning Big Macs into big moves. Catch eating while broke every Thursday on the Black Effect Podcast Network. IHeartRadio app Apple podcasts Wherever you get your favorite shows, come hungry for season four.