Best of The Herd

Summary

Podcast Summary: The Herd with Colin Cowherd – Best of The Herd Release Date: June 4, 2025
Host: Jason McIntyre
Co-Host: Alex Curry
Guest: Mitch Lawrence, NBA Writer and SiriusXM Host

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1. Introduction and Initial Discussions [03:11 – 07:25]

Jason McIntyre kicks off the episode from Los Angeles, highlighting a "spicy show" ahead. He introduces his co-host, Alex Curry, and touches upon a previous discussion about "ghosts," which segues into the main sports topics of the day.

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2. New York Knicks' Shocking Decision to Fire Tom Thibodeau [07:26 – 07:25]

The primary focus of the episode centers on the unexpected firing of the New York Knicks' head coach, Tom Thibodeau, despite having led the team to its best season this century. Jason expresses surprise, citing the Knicks being just two games away from the NBA Finals and having defeated the defending champion, the Celtics.

Notable Quote:

"The Knicks starters average more points per game than any other starting unit in the last 45 years in the NBA. Tibbs does not trust his bench."
— Jason McIntyre [05:15]

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3. Analyzing the Reasons Behind Thibodeau’s Dismissal [05:15 – 15:01]

Jason delves into internal dynamics, revealing that James Dolan, the Knicks' owner who has been largely absent from team operations over the past five years, sat in on exit interviews with key players like Josh Hart, Mikhail Bridges, and Jalen Brunson. This presence likely influenced the decision to fire Thibodeau.

Key Points:

• Jalen Brunson vocally supported Thibodeau, questioning the necessity of the coach's return.
• Josh Hart had previous conflicts with Thibodeau over player utilization and bench time, highlighting systemic issues within the team's strategy.
• Thibodeau's inability to effectively develop a robust bench led to player fatigue and declining performance in crucial games.

Notable Quote:

"They gave up 126 points per game in the losses in the series. That's Thibodeau's calling card. He couldn't deliver."
— Jason McIntyre [07:35]

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4. Guest Insights: Mitch Lawrence on Knicks' Front Office Politics [19:20 – 29:39]

Mitch Lawrence, an NBA writer and SiriusXM host, provides an in-depth analysis of the Knicks' tumultuous front office environment. He describes Madison Square Garden (MSG) as a "pit full of vipers," emphasizing the internal agendas and lack of accountability among the management.

Key Insights:

• Jim Dolan's hands-on approach disrupted the stability Thibodeau brought to the team.
• The Knicks' management style contrasts sharply with other successful franchises like the Spurs or Miami Heat, leading to organizational dysfunction.
• The lack of transparency and open communication with the media exacerbates the team's challenges.

Notable Quote:

"The Garden front office is full of vipers. These are guys who have their own agendas, whatever they are."
— Mitch Lawrence [19:20]

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5. Potential Candidates for Knicks’ Head Coach Position [29:37 – 48:58]

Jason McIntyre and Mitch Lawrence brainstorm potential replacements for Thibodeau, considering various seasoned coaches:

• Michael Malone: Former Denver Nuggets coach with a championship title, praised for his ability to develop players. Jason advocates for Malone’s defensive acumen and leadership qualities, despite earlier reservations about his fit with the Knicks.

• Mark Jackson: A Knicks legend with deep roots in New York, though his past off-court issues and lack of recent head coaching opportunities make his candidacy uncertain.

• Steve Nash: Former Brooklyn Nets coach whose tenure was marred by conflicts with star player Kyrie Irving. Despite his basketball IQ, Nash's compatibility with the current Knicks roster remains questionable.

• Mike Brown: Known for his defensive strategies, Brown's experience could address the Knicks' defensive shortcomings. However, his recent mixed results make his hiring a risky move.

• Sam Cassell: A players' coach with a relatable persona, Cassell could bridge the gap between players and management. His lack of head coaching experience, however, poses a challenge.

Additional Consideration:

• Jason Kidd: Former Knicks star and Dallas Mavericks coach, Kidd's potential return is debated. While his legacy with the Knicks is strong, his current commitment to Dallas and the feasibility of a trade complicates his candidacy.

Notable Quote:

"He is one of the great point guards in NBA history, so I don't know. It's going to be fascinating."
— Jason McIntyre [27:59]

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6. Kevin Durant’s Career Trajectory and Trade Speculations [15:01 – 24:13]

The discussion shifts to Kevin Durant, examining his recent performance decline and the implications for his career. Jason draws parallels between Durant and aging actors like Nicolas Cage, suggesting Durant's marketability and performance are waning.

Key Points:

• Durant's Declining Playoff Performance: Despite his illustrious career, Durant has been swept in two of his last three playoff runs with super teams, raising concerns about his future impact.
• Trade Speculations: The Phoenix Suns are reportedly interested but hesitant, suggesting a diminishing interest in Durant as a viable long-term asset.
• Market Value: At 36, Durant's $54 million contract next year raises questions about his fit with younger, developing teams versus super teams needing a veteran presence.

Notable Quote:

"Kevin Durant's defense is that superior to what you're getting at $54 million playing the position he does."
— Jason McIntyre [14:10]

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7. Concluding Thoughts on Knicks' Future and Durant’s Situation [46:33 – 48:58]

As the episode wraps up, Jason and Alex reflect on the Knicks' uncertain future and Durant's potential exit from the league's elite echelon. They discuss the strategic missteps and possible outcomes for both the Knicks' coaching position and Durant’s career decisions.

Final Insights:

• The Knicks face a crossroads where the next head coach must not only manage the team effectively but also navigate the complex front office politics.
• Durant's career decisions will likely impact his legacy and the dynamics of team compositions across the NBA.

Notable Quote:

"If you're making a list of all-time great point guards, Kidd has to be top six, right?"
— Jason McIntyre [28:24]

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Conclusion

The "Best of The Herd" episode provides a comprehensive analysis of significant NBA developments, focusing on the New York Knicks' unexpected coaching change and Kevin Durant’s career trajectory. Through insightful discussions and expert guest commentary, host Jason McIntyre and co-host Alex Curry offer listeners a deep dive into the intricate dynamics shaping the current sports landscape.

Key Takeaways:

• Knicks' Uncertainty: The firing of Tom Thibodeau despite a successful season underscores deep-seated issues within the Knicks' management and front office.
• Kevin Durant’s Crossroads: Durant's performance and marketability are at a pivotal point, with potential moves that could redefine his career and the teams involved.

Quote to Remember:

"This is like a year or two away for Kevin Durant; he's either going to have to have a big reality check or change his ways."
— Jason McIntyre [14:50]

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Note: Timestamps are approximate and based on the provided transcript. Advertisements, intros, outros, and non-content segments have been excluded to focus on the core discussions.

Transcript

[Jason McIntyre]

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[Alex Curry]

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[Jason McIntyre]

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[Jason McIntyre]

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[Alex Curry]

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[Alex Curry]

Thanks for listening to the Best of The Herd podcast. Be sure to catch us live every weekday on Fox Sports Radio and noon to 3 Eastern, 9am to noon Pacific. Find your local station for the [e-mail] or stream us live every day on the iHeartRadio app by searching Fox Sports Radio or FSR.

[Mitch Lawrence]

This is the best of the Herd with Colin Cowher on Fox Sports Radio.

[Jason McIntyre]

Hello and welcome back to the Herd. It's me, Jason McIntyre, here in LA on a Wednesday, and boy, do we have a spicy show ahead. I'm joined, as always, by Alex Curry. Alex, I had several people ask me about the ghost topic yesterday you brought up, and I know you're fired up about ghost. No. Okay, J. Mac, the way you see it is like, you think, like, white sheets. Scary. No, talking about, like, energies. Like you can feel energies. And it's funny because a lot of people bring it up to me, too. And it's all women who can feel it and see it. We can't see anything. No, but women have, like, strong intuition. I mean, we're basically like goddesses. We create life. Pretty much. Yeah. I don't see the paper towel being empty, the toilet paper. I don't even see that stuff. It's not like what you see in cartoons and movies. Scooby Doo goes terrifying. All right, so listen, obviously we got to start the show with the big news in the NBA. Yesterday, we my New York Knicks, who finally seem to get their act together, right? Greatest season this century, and they fire their coach, Tom Thibodeau. He gets fired yesterday in what, like the middle of the show. Alex and I were stunned. I was closer to the end of the show. And one interesting nugget trickled out overnight regarding how this happened. Because, remember, a lot of folks, myself included, thought it maybe you just bring Thibodeau back and you run it back. You know, you guys, two games away from the NBA Finals, took down the defending champion Celtics. Why not run it back? But this nugget trickled out of the exit interviews. Apparently when the Knicks were interviewing Josh Hart, Mikhail Bridges, Jalen Brunson, one certain play person in the organization happened to sit in on those exit interviews, and that was James Dolan, who's largely been a ghost the last five years. Do you like that play on words there? Dolan has not been around the Knicks because he's been running the sphere in Vegas and getting that off the ground. And obviously that's a great win for Mr. Dolan. But sitting in on the exit interviews and all of a sudden, boom. The head coach is gone. You have to wonder, did he hear something he didn't like? Well, we know that that something did not come from Jalen Brunson, who staunchly defended his coach after the Knicks were eliminated by the Pacers. We had a reporter say, well, what do you think about Tibbs? Is he going to make it back? And Brunson was like, is that a real question? We know Brunson likes Tibbs. He's known Tibbs since he was a young guy. Rick Brunson, his father, who's now on the Knicks staff, played for the Knicks. And like there's a lot of internal stuff. Brunson and Thibodeau were copacetic. But what we do know is that Josh Hart had beef at points this season with Thibodeau and Mikhail Bridges as recently as the middle of March piped up, why aren't we playing our bench? Why are we playing so many minutes? What's going on here? I mean, and the numbers bear it out. The Knicks starters average more points per game than any other starting unit in the last 45 years in the NBA. Tibbs does not trust his bench. Right. That's very well known. Happened in Chicago, unfortunately. After that you saw Derrick Rose wear down, you saw Joe Kim, Noah, like these guys careers lu all dang. Their careers kind of ended early because Tibbs ran him into the ground. And the Knicks players clearly pushed back on that. Bridges actually mentioned in March. Yeah, we got Landry Shamut. Why isn't he playing more? Well, Tibbs I guess saw the light and started playing Landry Shamut in the Pacer series. But unfortunately it was a little bit too late. Landry Shamet couldn't save the day. So now you have to wonder like does this change the trajectory of say Carl Anthony Towns? Now we know he is a Tibbs guy dating back to Minnesota. Is he all of a sudden on the trading block? Like what happens Mikhail Bridges who was had for five first round picks and is looking for a big money extension. Do you pay him? Do you try to get three guys to create him in the aggregate next year? Does this mess everything up? But most importantly, where do the Knicks.

[Alex Curry]

Head for a head coach?

[Jason McIntyre]

And I do want to quickly defend Tibbs. Just give me a second. There was a 19 year stretch where the Knicks won one playoff series. Okay? Thibodeau has won four in the last three seasons. He has been successful. Look at this. Under Tom Thibodeau, five seasons, four playoff appearances and you see that winning record there? I know this is gonna Be surprising. He has more wins with the Knicks than Pat Riley. It's just a mind blowing stat. Like Tom Thibodeau has been great. And we should also add, before Tibbs came on board, 18 seasons, 12 different head coaches. So they finally get their act together. And now we're back in the head coaching cycle for the Knicks. Who's going to be the next head coach? Well, you know, at the top of next hour, I'm going to reveal my five top names to replace Thibodeau. And then a really spicy name that I. I haven't really seen bandied about. It doesn't seem realistic, but I think there could be some potential there. What's going to happen next with the Knicks? Now I do want to pivot to a really explosive report in the Athletic about Kevin Durant and oh boy, folks, it don't look good for Kevin Durant. Let me start here by saying Kevin Durant is one of the 15 greatest players in the history of basketball. Full stop. We all agree the guy won an MVP, carried OKC to the finals, goes to Golden State, wins two finals MVPs. His resume speaks for itself. Kevin Durant has had an incredible career. It's inarguable. That being said, we know sports are. What have you done for me lately? And in some ways, you know, Kevin Durant is the guy who used to be an A list actor and get all the first look at scripts and now he's not getting any looks. I mean, Nick Cage comes to mind, you know, won an Academy Award for leaving Las Vegas. What has that guy done lately? Where's Nick cage the last 10 years? Can he open a movie? No shot. I mean, Will Smith, Will Smith has an unbelievable movie resume. I mean, I am Legend is like probably one of my top 10 movies of all time. I love Will Smith as an actor again. Like, is he getting any good looks anymore? When are they starting filming bad boys for? You know, like that's where Kevin Durant is in his career. I don't know if anybody wants him and I know what the trade deadline. There were teams involved and talking to the Suns, you had reports, I'm going to put those in air quotes. Reports that five teams wanted Kevin Durant. Well, the latest report in the Athletic is that the Phoenix Suns keep calling the Houston Rockets and the Suns keep lowering their asking price. Kevin Durant is 36 and we know he's still a bucket. Okay, that's, it's obvious. Kevin Durant, he can give you 25 points a night. That's that's great. Yeah, so can Mo Wagner and Jalen Green. I mean These guys are 10 years younger and they can score almost what Kevin Durant does. And Kevin Durant is also kind of an ornery, prickly fellow who, oh, by the way, has not been great in the playoffs lately. Guys, the super team Suns, yes, D. Book Durant and Bradley Beal qualifies as a super team. That's three all NBA players joining forces. They didn't make the playoffs this year. Okay, Kevin Durant has been swept in two of his last three trips to the playoffs. And yes, both were with super teams. Need I remind you the super team fiasco in Brooklyn, which is really deserves its own 30 for 30. It was a Hindenburg, okay? They got swept in his last playoff appearance by Jason Tatum in the Celtics. Like Kevin Durant in the postseason is not what we he used to be. Again, you could love KD and he's a bucket, but he's turning 37 in September. Here's Rick Bucher earlier this week talking about the trickiness of how to move Kevin Durant.

[Alex Curry]

The tricky part is are you just getting him as a one year rental.

[Jason McIntyre]

Or is he going to sign an extension?

[Alex Curry]

Do you want to sign him to extension?

[Jason McIntyre]

What does that extension look like?

[Alex Curry]

There's a lot of tricky parts to that. To your point, because of KD's age.

[Jason McIntyre]

I just don't know what the market is for Kevin Durant. So I started looking at the standings and teams that could be close and looking at Kevin Durant's $54 million contract next year. And yeah, okay, sure, he's going to give you 25, 27 points a game. He don't want to be a leader. So if you expect Kevin Durant to go to a young team and maybe be that leader, be that agent of change who's going to take them up the next step and I'll toss one out there. We know Kevin Durant went to the University of Texas. He loves Austin, has a very big affinity for the city. Hey, the San Antonio spurs, could that work? Wembanyama de' Aaron Fox, Kevin Durant, maybe that's something. And then you look at what the spurs are and you're like, okay, well we're not giving up Stefan Castle for to rent Kevin Durant for one year. Is Wembanyama and kd, is that doing anything in the West? And I look around the Houston Rockets, folks, they would rather chase Giannis than go after Kevin Durant. I mean, I don't, you know, a couple years ago Kevin Durant, you know, he grew up in the D.C. area, is a legend in Maryland growing up. And I. I floated the idea, why wouldn't he go to the Wizards, you know, and join forces with, like, John Wall and Bradley Beal? This is way back, and it's like, Wizards are one of the worst teams in the league right now. I mean, is that the kind of thing where we're going to see Kevin Durant end up on a bad team? Somebody in our morning meeting floated, what about the Atlanta Hawks? Kd, Trey Young, Jalen Johnson coming back from. I. I don't know. And again, I'm a huge Kevin Durant fan. Yes, we've had our online beefs a few times over the years, but I love him as a basketball player. I don't love the I just want to hoop, I don't want to be a leader thing. I mean, could we see him in Detroit to help the Pistons get over the top? But then you look at the Piston salaries, and it's like, okay, are we dumping any of our good young players? Hey, we need Ansar Thompson. You're not getting him. Not for Kevin Durant for one freaking year. And the more we talk about KD and you read stories about the Suns lowering their asking price, you start to wonder, like, she's. Are the Suns going to have to attach a draft pick, assuming they have any left to get off Kevin Durant? Are we in a world where Kevin Durant is close to ending his career like Patrick Ewing did with the Seattle Sonics? You guys remember Olajuwon wearing a Raptors jersey? I mean, Karl Malone sitting on the bench with the Lakers? Like, we're not. This is like a year or two away, maybe, for. For Kevin Durant, he's either going to have to have a big reality check and understand, dude, I'm not that guy anymore, or Kevin Durant's going to have to change his ways and say, you know what? I will be a leader for a young team because if I need 25 points, I'll go get Tyler. Hero. Sorry. I don't think Kevin Durant's defense, he is that superior to what you're getting at.54 million playing the position he does. And I'll leave you with this. Like, again, I don't want to be seen as taking jabs at Kevin Durant, but at this stage in the game, like, what do you do with him? Is there a world where nobody wants Kevin Durant? As shocking as that sounds, I think we're getting close to Kevin Durant. Not really getting the interest that he thought he would. So he goes super teams. And now he goes kind of out with a whimper.

[Mitch Lawrence]

Be sure to catch live editions of the Herd, weekdays at noon Eastern, 9am Pacific on Fox Sports Radio FS1 and.

[Alex Curry]

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[Jason McIntyre]

Welcome back into the herd. We gotta go to New York now to figure out who put the knife in to Tom Thibodeau's back. Let's go to Mitch Lawrence, who's covered the Knicks forever, NBA writer, host, SiriusXM. He's got an amazing background there, as you can see. All right, Mitch, so we were talking during the commercial break and you described the Garden as a pit full of vipers. Can you kind of break down what happened? Because Thibodeau just led the Knicks to their best season this century and then he gets axed.

[Mitch Lawrence]

Yeah. I mean, he had the best playoff run since 1999, and the fans were partying like it was 1999. And all of a sudden he's the guy who's the scapegoat. It is. Listen, the Garden front office is full of vipers. These are guys who have their own agendas, whatever they are. They leak stuff to the media. They want certain people in, certain people out, and they added in. For Tom. It goes beyond basketball, Jason. It goes beyond he didn't develop a bench. It goes beyond guys didn't know their roles. It goes beyond, you know, you didn't have an offensive imagination. This goes beyond all that stuff. And now we're going to see who Jim Dolan, the owner, you know, who gets his ear and who he talks to and who they settle on as the next coach and say, this is what I when I was, you know, based in New York and at the New York Daily News doing 21 years of NBA Columns. This was familiar ground for anybody who dealt with the Knicks and dealt with Jim Dolan. It is a. It's a. It's a treacherous place. If you're a coach because you're the guy who's the face of the franchise, they don't let Leon Rose talk. Dolan doesn't talk. So Tom Thibodeau was the guy who had a talk. They don't help. Nobody's held accountable in terms of Leon Rose or Jim Dolan. And, you know, stuff like this happens. It's a very. It's run differently than any other organization, and it's been unsuccessful in a lot of ways. You know, it's the anti spurs, anti Miami Heat, whatever you want to call it. They do things their own way. And for the most part, before time came on board, they were irrelevant and a dumpster fire. And they, I think Knick fans probably fear now. That's the road they're headed back on.

[Jason McIntyre]

Yeah, especially if you don't make the right hire. So who would you say has the biggest pole or the most poll in making the hire? Is it Dolan, who's kind of been out of the mix? You know, he was with the Sphere in Vegas building that? Is it Leon Rose? Do the players have a say here? We know it's a players league. I mean, Jalen Brunson couldn't save Tibbs, but how do you break that down?

[Mitch Lawrence]

Well, Jalen. Jalen Brunson liked him, so he. And they didn't listen to him. So you also have to wonder what that means for him, especially if they get rid of his father who's on the bench. I think that has to be a concern that for Nick fans, too. Listen, I think it's going to probably be a few people. It'll be Leon Rose. They'll run it by Dolan. Dolan will, you know, do his checks. It's hard to tell. It's. It's because nobody really talks publicly. Like, what they should do is have Leon Rose out there today to say this is why we fired Tom Thibodeau. I'm going to take questions and answers. And by the way, this is what we're looking for in our next coach to give people an idea of what they're going for. But the Knicks don't do things like that like other teams. They don't make people, you know, like Pat Riley goes public after his team gets wiped off the court against Cleveland and he's own. He owns up to stuff. The Knicks don't do that. So you never know their game plan. So it's very hard to say exactly how it's all going to run or who's going to have the power, who's going to, you know, who wants who out there.

[Jason McIntyre]

It's.

[Mitch Lawrence]

Oh, you're always dealing with a lot of mystery at the guard.

[Jason McIntyre]

Yeah. And it feels like, I don't know if you use the word accountability, but like Leon Rose, like shouldn't you step up and meet the media and talk about this? I mean that seems like the, the way we should do it.

[Mitch Lawrence]

No, everybody does it that way in the league. I mentioned Pat Riley, Brad Stevens, when thing went south for Boston for this year, they're standing champs. He met with the media and he had Daryl Morey and Nick Nurse meet in Philadelphia. Nobody had a worse year expectation wise than probably Philadelphia. Jim Dolan doesn't want his people like Leon rose and other GMs before him to speak publicly. He kind of has an, you know, you hear teams having a, you know, a media policy. He has an anti media policy that's for as long as I, you know, for the longest time. And a lot of it dates back to that sexual harassment case. And you know, post that in 2007, that's already 18 years where Isaiah Thomas and the Knicks gotten in big trouble. So it cost stolen $12 million. After that, the league basically held sway, David Stern over the Knicks. That's when they hired Donnie Walsh and Dolan. Listen to the NBA then. But since then he, he does things his way. He's not going to have Leon Rose at all. Talk to the media. The next coach will be the face of the franchise just like Tom was Tom Thibodeau. Which adds to, you know, the pressure of the job in New York. Now you're the coach. Not only you have to coach the team, prepare the team, now you're also the face and the voice of the franchise. Puts a lot of pressure on that next coach. Besides the fact that obviously the next coach has a very high bar. You got to come in, you got to win 11 playoff games because Tom just won your 10.

[Jason McIntyre]

I'm going to throw some names at you. You tell me your thoughts. But first, the Phoenix Suns have just announced that they have hired Cavs assistant Jordan Otto. You know, whoever that is. I don't know that that is a move based on what the Knicks are doing, but there is a guy, Johnny Bryant, whose name is being bandied about as a potential Knicks candidate. I don't think you go from Tom Thibodeau to Johnny Bryant, do you?

[Mitch Lawrence]

Well, I don't think so either, but that doesn't mean it can't happen. And he seems to be the front runner right now. He was in New York. Now, you mentioned Jordan not getting the Phoenix job. Johnny Bryant was also up for that job. So now he works in Cleveland for Kenny Atkinson. But he had been in New York. He's familiar with the front office. People are familiar with him. He's got. He's got people who hope he gets a job. He has people who, from my understanding, who hope he doesn't get the job. Listen, if you think you're a championship contender, and I don't think the Knicks are, I think they're a decent cut below with that roster with their two best players being one way, offensive players and defensive liabilities. I'm talking about Jalen Brunson and Karl Anthony Towns. You've built around those. Those guys. I don't think you can bring in a guy like a Johnny Bryant who's never been a head coach, certainly, you know, and. And all of a sudden entrust him to actually exceed what Tom Thibodeau did. I think that's an impossible spot for him. And I think that's a thing that I think Knick fans have to be worried about.

[Jason McIntyre]

Yeah, Michael Malone was fired by Denver maybe two months ago. He feels like Thibodeau 2.0, doesn't like to play young guys, rides his starters. Like that was an issue for Tibbs. I would cross Michael Malone off the list.

[Mitch Lawrence]

Your thoughts just based on that? Well, I will say this. If you go back to his Denver team now, he had Jokic. I know SGA is the mvp, but this is like back in the Michael Jordan era when Karl Malone won the mvp. We all knew that Michael Jordan was the best player in the world. Just like now we know that Jokic is the best player in the world. He only. He only had a bench of basically three guys. Jeff Green, Bruce Brown and Christian Brown. That's it. They won the title that way. So if you're hung up on this bench nonsense that he won't play your bench. I mean, think of it this way. The Tom Thibodeau, is he really the first coach in the history of the NBA and maybe sports to get fired because he didn't. He didn't develop a bench?

[Jason McIntyre]

Absurd. It's absurd.

[Mitch Lawrence]

Look who's on his bench. Mike Malone had a great bench with those three players versus what Tom Thibodeau had to work with. But anyway, that's a whole different story. I would hire Mike Malone, he knows New York. His father coached in New York. I knew Brendan Malone when he was an assistant in Syracuse, when I started out in the newspaper racket in 1980. I go back that far when Michael Malone was running around and basically diapers. Yeah, I think he's a hell of a coach now. Ten years in Denver, long time. Won a title, maybe got a little full of himself. That's what people say.

[Jason McIntyre]

I don't know.

[Mitch Lawrence]

I haven't talked to Mike since then. But he's a very good coach. And let's not forget, where was he before he landed in Denver and did a great job? Their first title ever? He was in Sacramento. He did a great job there. For a franchise that continues to, you know, I mean, that's just like total dysfunction out there. Except for a few moments, right? Except for a very few moments. And Mike Malone did a good job there. I think Nick fans would actually say, you know, what if we get Mike Malone, yeah, we can go places and not worry about what he did with his bench in Denver. Just look at his accomplishments. The only thing, though, Jason, is, is he going to come in? You're going to say, well, he had, you know, let's see how he does.

[Jason McIntyre]

Without joking, without the. Yeah, that's.

[Mitch Lawrence]

Yeah.

[Jason McIntyre]

All right, let me throw one more. He's currently coaching the Dallas Mavericks and his name is Jason Kidd. He played with the Knicks. Obviously he was not brought in to talk about the Luca deal. He looked shell shocked at the press conference afterward. Are the Knicks an upgrade from the maps? I don't know, Jason. Kid's an interesting name.

[Mitch Lawrence]

It is an interesting name. You know, if you look at the Knicks in terms of where they are in the east, you know, Indiana's there now. Boston's not going to have Tatum for probably a year, but they're going to be back. You've got Detroit on the rise or Orlando. We'll see what happens in Milwaukee with Giannis. The Knicks, you know, they're going to. They're probably going to take a step back with a new coach. I don't know how. Jason, first of all, he has a job in Dallas. Like you raised the point with his roster. He's not going to have Kyrie Irving for a while. He'll have Anthony Davis. We know that Anthony Davis cannot stay on the court at points, but he's going to get Cooper flag, right? It sounds like they're going to keep that draft pick and they'll pick Cooper Flag. So it would have to be some sort of a trade to Get Jason Kidd. They're going to have to get some sort of compensation. And who knows what Nico Harrison and Patrick Dumont, the owner, are thinking these days about Jason Kidd? I have no idea. All I know is that the Maverick fans are still irate that Luka Doncic is a Laker that has not gone away.

[Jason McIntyre]

Yeah. Mitch Lawrence, NBA writer, serious XM host. Great stuff. I like the blue Knicks shirt, turtleneck. Nice job, Mitch. Thanks a lot, man.

[Mitch Lawrence]

Thanks for having me, Jason. Enjoyed it.

[Jason McIntyre]

Yeah, interesting stuff. He's bullish on Michael Malone. Listen, I was pushing Michael Malone's name a month ago when the Knicks were struggling against Detroit, and I was like, I don't know if they, if they can't get by Detroit, just get Tibbs out of here bringing Malone. Then they beat the Celtics and I'm like, ah, just keep Tibs one more herd.

[Mitch Lawrence]

The herd streams 24 hours a day, seven days a week within the iHeartRadio app search heard to listen live or on demand whenever you'd like.

[Alex Curry]

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[Jason McIntyre]

We're back. Our number two here on the Herd, Jason McIntyre in for Colin Cowherd. I'm joined today by Alex Curry. Alex, you know NBA finals start tomorrow. I know you're really excited. We haven't talked a lot about the Stanley cup finals. I hear hockey is happening this week or something like that. Yeah, I mean, but we got something. I. I'm just kidding. It's funny though, because obviously I used to work in hockey, so I love it and I follow it. And I was following the Kings playoff run. They got. Got booted once again. Yeah. By the Edmonton Oilers. But yeah, it's sim. It's kind of having a similar feel to this NBA Finals right now where everyone's like, oh, yeah, the finals are this week. Opposed to like, oh, my God, I can't wait for this day because the finals start. So it's. Yeah, it's a. It's a rough one. We have a really nice guest coming up in 30 minutes. Alexi Lawless, U.S. national Soccer Team legend, also a soccer agitator. Can I call him that? I'm on a text thread with some soccer dads and they're like, oh, I can't stand that Lawless. Oh, my goodness. But first, we got to start here. Obviously, the Knicks fire Tom Thibodeau yesterday. Bit of a shocker. And we decided we come up with five potential names to replace Tom Thibodeau. Now we just had Mitch Lawrence on and he broke it down in an interesting way. He's like, listen, man, MSG is a pit full of vipers because it's so insular and they don't talk to the media, really. Nobody knows who's really making this decision. Like, Leon Rose had hired his guy Tibbs. Well, did Leon Rose fire his guy or did Dolan step in? Is Jim Dolan back in charge and he's going to flex and throw his weight around? And so there's a bit of a mystery as to will Rose get his guy? Will the players have a say? We know it's a players league. Or is the owner just going to steamroll everybody and say, this is what I want. So I came up with five guys and then we'll have like a special mystery Guy at the end, which I'll, I'll go a little longer on. But the first guy I'm going to bring up is Mark Jackson. Nobody's talking about Mark Jackson whatsoever. He's. Well, yeah, I'm on the right side. But listen, this is a guy who was in Golden State for the early Splash Brothers and he got run off. The worst part for Mark Jackson was right after he got run off, Steve Kerr made a little tweak, right? He put Draymond Green into the death lineup. They went small ball and they made the jump to light speed. And the warriors never looked back. They became a dynasty. And depending on who you talk to, it's like, oh, Mark Jackson couldn't figure it out. We needed Steve Kerr to do that. Now Mark Jackson is a legend in New York City, okay? Born in Queens, like myself, I thought I was a point guard. He actually was a point guard. Went to St. John's legendary player at St. John's what with the Knicks, Mr. Shimmy. I mean, Mark Jackson needs no introduction. The problem is he had some off court stuff that kind of carried over. And then the warriors thing, never. He never was able to rebound from that. And he never got a second chance, which I think is kind of bs. He went to be an announcer, then he got shoved out of that. So Mark Jackson is just out there. And my gut tells me Dolan wanting to win over the fans, is going to bring in Mark Jackson for an interview. I don't know if he'll get it, but he's on the list. I think the next guy you got to bring up is Michael Malone. Now, Michael Malone won a title in Denver a couple of years ago, and we talked with Mitch Lawrence a little while ago talking about Thibodeau getting fired. He raved about Michael Malone.

[Mitch Lawrence]

It's a treacherous place if you're a coach because you're the guy who's the face of the franchise. They don't let Leon Rose talk. Dolan doesn't talk. So Tom Thibodeau was the guy who had a talk. Nobody's held accountable in terms of Leon Rose or Jim Dolan. It's run differently than any other organization and it's been unsuccessful in a lot of ways. You know, it's the anti spurs, anti Miami Heat, whatever you want to call it. They do things their own way. And for the most part, before time came on board, they were irrelevant and a dumpster fire. And they, I think Nick fans probably fear now, that's the road they're headed back on.

[Jason McIntyre]

So if you listen closely, Mitchell's like, listen, they don't like dealing with the media. Thibodeau did not like dealing with the media. He just wouldn't give much, wouldn't talk a lot. You know who doesn't mind mixing it up with the media? Michael Malone. He'll go right back at you guys. And you know why? Because he won a title with Denver and he talked. He talked trash and backed it up. Now, the interesting thing is I had a Knicks fan tell me, listen, who was Jokic when he came into the league? 2nd round pick? Give me a break. Carl Anthony Towns. You don't think Michael Malone could work with him and take his defense from a. A D plus to a B minus? Could he get him to a C plus? Michael Malone really did help Jokic a lot. Why couldn't he do that with Cat?

[Alex Curry]

And.

[Jason McIntyre]

And I, you know, remember I was pushing Michael Malone during the Detroit series. You know, we could pull that video if you really want to. I know you don't care, but then I backed off when he beat the Celtics, and I don't. Malone really does feel like Thibodeau 2.0. All right, next name on the list again, kind of going off the board here. Steve Nash, Anyone? Steve Nash coached in Brooklyn. It's funny because Steve Nash was great with the warriors as, like, a specialty. Coach Kevin Durant loved him, and then Kevin Durant pushed for him when he got to Brooklyn with Kyrie. But what Kevin Durant didn't know is Kyrie Irving was kind of sort of losing his mind at the time and wanted nothing to do with Steve Nash. He famously went on like an Instagram live or whatever and was like, KD and I with our iq, we don't even need a coach. And I told the story how Steve Nash was in New York. Kyrie said, oh, yeah, come to my place to meet me. And Steve Nash in the rain went there, and Kyrie just left him on the doorstep for like 20 minutes, ringing the doorbell. Just wouldn't answer it as like a, hey, man, I know you're the coach, but I'm the guy. I built this super team. And it was like, whoa, they got off on the wrong foot. Nash did not last long in Brooklyn, but he's now partnered with LeBron LeBron on a podcast. And we know that worked out well for LeBron's last podcast partner, JJ Redick. Let's see who else we got. We got Mike Brown. Anyone? Mike Brown's kind of been around the league. Smart guy. I don't Want to say got railroaded in Sacramento, but it just didn't really pan out for him. Obviously a very good coach in Cleveland. He's been around the league. Is considered a defensive guy which is pretty good, especially when you factor in how bad the Knicks defense was against the Pacers. I believe they gave up 126 points per game in the losses in the series. And it's like that was Tibbs calling card. He couldn't deliver. Can Mike Brown get the defense up to snuff? And finally I'm going off the board here. Sam Cassell, everybody knows him. Great celebration guy, Sam Cassell. We won't talk about the celebration. Halliburton mimicked it, but Cassell is known as a players coach. Colin always laughs when I say this phrase. But Sam Cassell's a cool guy. He's funny. He was a great point guard and I do believe he could connect with these guys in a way. Tibbs, who's 67 and much older than Cassell. Tibbs didn't really connect with Bridges and Hart and now that came out in the media, could Cassell be the guy? So those are the five guys that I think will certainly get interviews and deep looks. Michael Malone, obviously everybody loves that. Mike Brown, I haven't heard as much about Nash. I don't know if I was the first to float him yesterday right after a broke Sam Castell and Mark Jackson. So now I'm going to go with the other guy and I was not convinced of this. And we had a heated four minute debate in the meeting this morning about whether or not Jason Kidd is a viable candidate for the Knicks job. Jason Kidd was the point guard with Carmelo Anthony when the Knicks had a really good run, I don't know, 10 years ago. The problem of course is Jason Kidd is currently under contract with the Dallas Mavericks. But let's be real. Jason Kidd may not love it in Dallas. They they get to the finals with Luca and then don't consult J. Kidd and they trade Luca to the Lakers and Jason Kidd and we don't have video of it. But if you look at the post Luca trade press conference, Jason Kidd is staring straight ahead like he saw a ghost. Yeah, we're doing one ghost reference an hour people. And I don't, I'm a Knicks fan. I don't know if the Knicks next season is an upgrade from the Mavs. Let me explain. Yes, the Knicks are in the East. No Tatum, Celtics pull back. Knicks are going to be one of the three best in the East. Dallas gets Cooper Flag. They have Anthony Davis, Gafford for Now, Derek Lively, P.J. washington and Kyrie Irving's hurt and will be out. I mean I'm going to generously say the all star break maybe March 1st. So. So there will be some struggles. Here's why I think Dallas is interesting given the number one pick of Cooper Flag. I believe they will be active in free agency and they will be making trades. I think Gafford is gone. I think you could probably trade Gafford to a team looking to off road salary and hello Drew Holiday and the Boston Celtics. So now if you're just looking at a playoff lineup in Dallas, potentially Jrue Holiday, Kyrie Irving, PJ Washington, Lively and ad that's maybe a truck in the west. And my main man, Cooper Flagg, future NBA mvp. Cooper Flag would be your sixth man. Super Max Christie, seventh man. I know Super Max. Hahaha folks, that's a hell of a lineup. The Knicks have some flexibility this offseason, but when you look at the roster it's like are they too top heavy and I don't know how much movement they'll actually make. So could you convince Jason Kidd, hey man, we're gonna trade for you Then the other problem is the Knicks don't have a ton of assets to trade for Jason Kidd. And oh by the way, they owe $30 million to Tom Thibodeau. So now you're giving up assets, then you gotta pay J kid and you still gotta pay Thibodeau. It just, it doesn't seem like a winning play for the Knicks. It's weird. I didn't like the Mavs trade at all. But then they get Cooper Flag in the lottery and now I've got to get back to being a Mavs fan. I love them when they had Luca just because I like Luca. But the Knicks, everybody's painting. This is, this is a great job. Is it? I don't know. The Phoenix Suns just hired a guy named Jordan. Not just kidding. Jordan Ott. I have no idea who that guy is. The, the Phoenix Suns are clearly hitting, hitting the detonation button on the franchise. It's probably going to be Devin Booker and a bunch of dudes because Bradley Beal is going to wave his no trading clause and be gone. But like that's what the Suns were picking Jordan Ott. So why are we mentioning for the next Michael Malone? Maybe he wants to go into tv. We saw him during, I think it was a West. Yeah, Western Conference finals. We saw him on TV talking about how Sga was the real mvp. Thought it was a shot of Joker. I digress. But it's like, is the Knicks job that good on the surface? Hell yeah. Just went to the conference finals. Two games from the NBA Finals. So Jason Kidd's an interesting name. My guess is it doesn't happen, but we know his history with the Knicks. He's a Hall of Fame point guard. If you're making a list of all time great point guards, kid has to be top six, right? I mean this is one of the great point guards in NBA history, so I don't know. It's going to be fascinating. Knick's head Coaching watch Can't wait.

[Alex Curry]

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[Jason McIntyre]

This is an iHeart podcast.