Best of the Week on The Herd

Summary

Podcast Summary: The Herd with Colin Cowherd – "Best of the Week" Release Date: June 14, 2025

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Episode Overview

In this episode of The Herd with Colin Cowherd, hosts and recurring guests delve into a wide array of sports topics, primarily focusing on the NFL and NBA landscapes. The discussion navigates through quarterback rankings, NBA Finals predictions, the controversial firing of the New York Knicks' coach, and the impact of Name, Image, and Likeness (NIL) deals on college basketball. Interspersed with insightful analysis and heated debates, the episode offers listeners a comprehensive overview of the current sports climate.

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NFL Quarterback Rankings and Draft Insights

The conversation kicks off with an in-depth analysis of the current NFL quarterback landscape. Paul Pierce shares his perspectives on various quarterbacks, evaluating their performance and potential impact on their respective teams.

• Aaron Rodgers' Transition to the Steelers

  Pierce expresses skepticism about Aaron Rodgers' fit with the Pittsburgh Steelers, citing the organization's defensive-first culture and lack of offensive continuity. He remarks, "I thought Aaron Rodgers was too smart to sign with the Steelers because I don't think it's a good fit" (04:25).

• Top Quarterbacks Assessment

  The hosts discuss the top quarterbacks in the AFC, highlighting Patrick Mahomes, Josh Allen, Joe Burrow, Lamar Jackson, and others. Pierce emphasizes the importance of both quarterback skill and coaching, stating, "If you have a star quarterback and he has at least a B coach, he's gonna make the playoffs" (16:17).

• Emerging Quarterbacks

  J.J. McCarthy is lauded for his leadership and playmaking abilities, with Pierce noting, "His effect on the game is the same as a superstar" (22:28). The discussion also touches on Geno Smith's performance, with Pierce acknowledging Smith's underrated status.

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NBA Finals Predictions and Team Analyses

A significant portion of the episode is dedicated to the NBA Finals, with a particular focus on the Indiana Pacers and Oklahoma City Thunder.

• Indiana Pacers' Clutch Performance

  Paul Pierce highlights the Pacers' exceptional performance in clutch situations, stating, "Indiana is the most clutch team in the playoffs. Nine one in clutch time" (35:17). He attributes their success to the versatility and unpredictability of their players.

• Oklahoma City Thunder's Challenges

  Contrasting the Pacers, the Thunder are scrutinized for their lackluster performance in tight games. Pierce observes, "Oklahoma City is clearly younger and not as good on the road" (46:17), suggesting that their regular-season dominance doesn't translate well into playoff resilience.

• Finals Outcome Prediction

  Pierce confidently predicts a sweep by the Pacers, emphasizing their consistent performance: "Once again, teams are 37 and 1 in the finals when leading 3 to 1. If Indiana wins tonight, folks, what a revelation that nobody in the league, no gm, I mean outside of Indiana's group, nobody would have picked them" (47:56).

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Controversial Firing of New York Knicks' Coach

The episode delves into the unexpected decision to fire the New York Knicks' coach, Tom Thibodeau.

• Assessing Thibodeau's Tenure

  Paul Pierce critiques the firing, arguing that it was unwarranted given Thibodeau's accomplishments. "Tibbs actually won more games in the regular season, one more game in the playoffs and was slightly better offensively" (43:42), he asserts.

• Roster and Personnel Issues

  J.J. McCarthy concurs, emphasizing that the team's issues were rooted in personnel rather than coaching. "They are deficient. They didn't have a bench. And even if Tibbs didn't play them, how productive were they?" (26:11).

• Impact of Player Departures

  The conversation touches on the loss of key players like Dante DiVincenzo, highlighting how these departures weakened the team's depth and offensive capabilities.

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Impact of NIL on College Basketball

The hosts explore the ramifications of NIL deals on college basketball programs, both in the United States and Europe.

• European Youth Academies at Risk

  Pierce points out that high NIL payouts are threatening European youth academies: "Real Madrid and Barcelona reportedly are considering shutting down their youth academies in Europe" (08:05).

• NIL as a Salvation for College Basketball

  He argues that NIL deals are revitalizing American college basketball by attracting top talent: "The NIL is going to save college basketball" (09:08).

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Other Sports Insights

• Los Angeles Dodgers' Struggles

  The episode briefly discusses the Dodgers' disappointing performance, noting injuries and pitching woes that have plagued the team for consecutive years.

• U.S. Men's National Soccer Team Challenges

  The hosts critique the hiring of Mauricio Pochettino, suggesting that the team's loss of three straight games indicates deeper issues beyond coaching: "Maybe we've overvalued our players. Their grit, their focus, their toughness, our academy system" (09:45).

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Notable Quotes

• Paul Pierce on Knicks' Coach Firing:
  "Tibbs actually won more games in the regular season, one more game in the playoffs and was slightly better offensively" (43:42).

• J.J. McCarthy on J.J. McCarthy's Leadership:
  "His effect on the game is the same as a superstar" (22:28).

• Paul Pierce on NFL Quarterbacks and Coaches:
  "If you have a star quarterback and he has at least a B coach, he's gonna make the playoffs" (16:17).

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Conclusion

This episode of The Herd with Colin Cowherd offers a robust analysis of current sports narratives, from quarterback evaluations in the NFL to strategic decisions in the NBA. The hosts provide thoughtful insights into team performances, coaching decisions, and the evolving landscape of college athletics influenced by NIL deals. Whether it's dissecting the Indiana Pacers' playoff prowess or debating the necessity of the Knicks' coaching change, listeners are treated to a comprehensive exploration of the week's top sports stories.

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Note: Advertisements, commercials, and non-content segments have been excluded from this summary to focus on the core discussions and analyses.

Transcript

[Colin Cowherd]

This is an iHeart podcast.

[Jason McIntyre]

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[Campaign for Tobacco Free Kids]

Nearly 90% of kids who vape say flavors are why they do it.

[Colin Cowherd]

A lot of the flavors that I've heard are like peach, mango, watermelon. It makes it seem like more childlike and innocent. Oh, if I try this once, it won't be that much of a problem. But then eventually it becomes a problem.

[Campaign for Tobacco Free Kids]

It's tough to restrict the sale of flavored tobacco products in Oregon and protect our kids from nicotine addiction. Urge lawmakers to Pass Senate Bill 702A take action@ flavorshookoregonkids.org paid for by the Campaign for Tobacco Free Kids Action Fund.

[Jason McIntyre]

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[Matt Hasselbeck]

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[Jason McIntyre]

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[Paul Pierce]

Thanks for listening to the Herd podcast. Be sure to catch us live every weekday on Fox Sports radio at noon.

[Jason McIntyre]

To 3 Eastern, 9 to noon Pacific.

[Paul Pierce]

Find your local station for the [e-mail] or stream us live every day on the iHeartRadio app by searching Fox Sports Radio or FSR. Thanks for listening to the Herd podcast. Here we go. It's hour two. It is a Monday. We are live in Chicago. It's the Herd. I am back, Jason off my bicycle from Copenhagen. Beautiful country.

[Rich Eisen]

Good to have you back, man.

[Paul Pierce]

It's great to be back.

[Rich Eisen]

Hey, by the way, you want to tell the audience I was texting you while you were in Europe all lots of important stuff happening around here so.

[Paul Pierce]

I had to there is rest now tomorrow, mandatory minicamps in the NFL. So we got keep your eye on Cleveland is very fascinating. That's all I'm going to say. Everybody makes bets. You can sit on the fence on this. My bet is Shador is going to start at some point in the NFL season. There are people all over the Internet, former NFL scouts. He's going to be a bust. He can't play well.

[Rich Eisen]

There's got to be a middle ground column like yeah, he may start but Kevin Sainski doesn't love him. They saying he's going to be a bust. Like come on. We don't know. That's a bit much.

[Paul Pierce]

All right. Matt Hasselbeck's around the corner first though. On a Monday. Haven't been here for a while. Colin right? Colin wrong.

[Matt Hasselbeck]

Where Colin was right.

[Paul Pierce]

Well, this Tyrese Halliburton is the most overrated player is nonsense. First of all, I think he has one of the highest IQs and EQs I have seen from a modern point guard. 13 of 15 times this year under 2 minutes when he could tire, take the lead, he hit the shot. That's insane. That is all time. That's better than Steph Curry. So I never bought into this. I'm not surprised they stole a game in Oklahoma City. I don't think they're as good as okc. I don't think they'll win the series. But this idea, this guy even sniffs overrated. I'll make the argument he is the most underrated player the last two years in the NBA. And tip of the cap to J. Mack, who spotted it over two years.

[Matt Hasselbeck]

Ago where Colin was wrong.

[Paul Pierce]

I thought Aaron Rodgers was too smart to sign with the Steelers because I don't think it's a good fit. I think it's a defensive first organization with an offensive coordinator he's not familiar with. They lost their left tackle, they've struggled in pass protect. They've got no Najee Harris and it's a division with Joe Burrow and Lamar Jackson four times a year minimum. So I listen. I thought he had better offers. I thought he would land a better offer and I thought this was A this was a spot that won't end well.

[Matt Hasselbeck]

But I'm wrong where Colin was right.

[Paul Pierce]

Ross Tucker, somebody whose opinion I trust is reporting. The Vikings do have concerns with JJ and McCarthy. McCarthy, quote, no matter what they say about JJ, they wanted Sam Darnold back and they weren't going to get Darnold, so they wanted Daniel Jones back. As much as they're, quote, sold on JJ McCarthy, they've got some doubts. So remember, he missed valuable time not only playing but practicing last year because of his surgeries. And I've said it before, he reminds me of an Alabama quarterback. His last two years at Michigan, he played with a great run game. He didn't have to throw much with poor protection. He had the best coach in every game he played and he had the lead for 90% of it and an unbelievable ground game in defense. I just don't know if he's built to come from behind. Throw 43 times in game, which you have to invariably do, especially in the.

[Matt Hasselbeck]

NFC north where Colin was wrong.

[Paul Pierce]

I'm surprised the Knicks fired Tom Thibodeau. Yeah, he's not not the most creative guy offensively, but that's why you build a staff. He built the culture they defend. They're tough, they're smart, they're physical. The issues the Knicks had to me are personnel issues. Brunson's not a great defender, so they can struggle having he and Cat on the floor at the same time. That's not really a Tibbs issue. I think the NBA is about steps and the process and they need to make another tweak. I'd move off KD and bring in. I'd move into KD and off Cat, but I don't think firing him was.

[Matt Hasselbeck]

The answer where Colin was right.

[Paul Pierce]

As much as I love the NBA, I said this finals would be a ratings whiff and it has been a clunker. Listen, it's a series for Die Hards only. The market size isn't great. Halliburton is not really a known entity in America. Even though he's a fascinating player, OKC style aesthetically is not appealing. And sga, again, he's great, he's productive, he's efficient. He's not necessarily dynamic or fascinating. So the ratings are bad for this final. Even though it's a Die Hard final. You can't be a basketball casual and be into this. But I do think Indiana's gonna win more games in this series and it.

[Matt Hasselbeck]

Goes at least six Where Colin was wrong.

[Paul Pierce]

I thought Ant Edwards of Minnesota was about ready to grab the mantle as face of the league. But he really struggled. Two things are true. You can really get him off his game if you force him, trap him, double him and force him to make quick basketball decisions. He is fundamentally too young. He's not a refined player. He had way too many turnovers, almost as many turnovers as assists. Against OKC he shot 28% from three. And they just forced a really young, still developing star to make fast, quick decisions in the half court. And he's not quite there yet.

[Matt Hasselbeck]

So I'm wrong where Collin was right.

[Paul Pierce]

I've been saying the NIL is going to save college basketball. And Real Madrid and Barcelona reportedly are considering shutting down their youth academies in Europe. And that's where most of the good players are in Europe that are 17, 18, 19 years old. Why? Because American college basketball programs, nil money is greater than Europe can afford. And so you're seeing Auburn brought back their star guard. Why? They paid him more than he can make in the NBA. Cooper Flagg made 8 million a year at Duke and now Illinois is going to have five European starters. American basketball programs may shut down some of the great academies in Europe because they're buying the best European players. Not to mention like the Auburn guard, many of the good college players are staying in college for another year. So college football didn't need saving. College basketball did and I predicted it.

[Matt Hasselbeck]

The NIL is going to deliver where Collin was wrong.

[Paul Pierce]

I thought the Dodgers roster was all time stuff, but in their last 22 games they're under 500. Their pitching staff, injuries, they're decimated for the third to fourth straight year. Do they have to clean house on the pitching coaching staff? Like what is happening with the staff. They're only one game ahead of the Padres and the giants over that 22 game skid 5th worst team era. Glass, Snow and Snell among 14 Dodger.

[Matt Hasselbeck]

Pitchers still on the IL where Colin was right finally.

[Paul Pierce]

Oh, for years I have told been lectured by American soccer fans. The United States men's national team will flourish. They only get an elite coach. Well, they hired Mauricio Pochettino. He is brilliant. And they've lost three straight. And the Gold Cup's around the corner now. Turkey pretty good. It's okay to lose the turkey 2 to 1, but I keep hearing my entire life from every young American soccer fan, it's the coach that's the problem. And I keep saying maybe we've overvalued our players. Their grit, their focus, their toughness, our academy system. Maybe it's that. And not always the coach. So they bring in a brilliant coach who was lauded for his success in Europe. We've lost three straight and kind of, you know, kind of limping into the Gold Cup. Are we not calling right, calling wrong on a Monday?

[Matt Hasselbeck]

Be sure to catch live editions of the Herd, weekdays at noon Eastern, 9am Pacific.

[Jason McIntyre]

Summer is here, and you can now get almost anything you need for your sunny days delivered with Uber Eats. Now, what do we mean by almost? Well, you can't get a well groomed lawn delivered, but you can get chicken parm delivered. A day at the lake? That's a no. A Philly cheesesteak? That's a yes. A nice tan. Sorry. A box fan? Happily, yes. What about a day of sunshine? Not happening. How about a box of fine wines? Yeah, that's happening. Delivery's on its way. Okay. How about some clear skies? Nope. Well, how about some French fries? Yeah. So how about a freshly cut lawn? Can't help you there. But a barbecued prawn or it and it's on its way. Even throw in some paper towels. Clean up after the feast. So while you can't get fun in the sun delivered, don't worry because you can get pork buns delivered. Uber Eats can definitely get you that. Get almost, almost anything delivered with Uber Eats. Order now. Alcohol in select markets. Product availability may vary by region. See app for details.

[Campaign for Tobacco Free Kids]

Nearly 90% of kids who vape say flavors are why they do it.

[Colin Cowherd]

A lot of the flavors that I've heard are like peach, mango, watermelon. It makes it seem like more childlike and innocent. Oh, if I try this once, it won't be that much of a problem. But then eventually, it becomes a problem.

[Campaign for Tobacco Free Kids]

It's time to restrict the sale of flavored tobacco products in Oregon and protect our kids from nicotine addiction. Urge lawmakers to Pass Senate Bill 702A. Take action at flavorshookoregonkids.org paid for by the Campaign for Tobacco Free Kids Action Fund.

[Jason McIntyre]

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[Paul Pierce]

So you know this that last year was a great not this past draft, the one before was a great draft. Most of those quarterbacks went to the NFC. Jaden Daniels, Michael Penix, JJ McCarthy, Caleb Williams, Bo Nix went to the AF. But the reason the AFC has been better than the nfc, not necessarily just the super bowl but but overall is because the AFC for about a seven year stretch kept hitting on quarterbacks and you know C.J. stroud and Herbert and Burrow and Mahomes and Allen, they just kept hitting and hitting and hitting on him. So if the young NFC quarterbacks like Jaden Daniels and Caleb and Panix, if they can hit in that draft a couple years ago, it'll even things out. But right now the best quarterbacks in football are overwhelmingly in the afc. So now as Aaron Rodgers goes from the jets to the Steelers, he stays in the AFC again with a defensive culture and a defensive head coach. I I let's just how good do we think he is compared to the other now he's past his prime, he's 41 year old Aaron with the other AFC quarterbacks. Well I'll just start it with this since 2022 and that includes the last year in Green Bay. Aaron is not Geno Smith and I know you don't want to hear that, but if you told me I had a game to win, I'd take Gino. Gino right now moves he's More mobile. He's pretty close to his prime though probably a bit out of the prime. He has a better passer rating, completion percentage, much larger yards per game and he's winning more games. So in Gino's not in the upper tier of the AFC quarterbacks. In my opinion though, I think he's a little undervalued. But if, if I went today and you told me best quarterbacks in the AFC and I mean maybe my order's not perfect or to your liking because I think Burrow last year honestly was the best quarterback. I'd go Alan Mahomes, Burrow, Lamar, that's the big four. Nobody disputes. I'd go Herbert, C.J. stroud and I put Geno 7. And again when Gino has a run game in his career in Seattle, he was good. His passer ratings over 100. So we can make. We can say now Geno, Sam Darnold, when he's rattled or there's pressure, he can be reckless. But if you give him time and you give him a decent run game. Geno Spence, pretty good quarterback. He's a B plus plus. And I would put the eighth best quarterback, Bo Nix, who's going into year two with Sean Payton and I think Bo Nix is so much more athletic than anybody wants to give him credit for. His running is a huge element of that offense. And then number nine, I think you get Aaron, Trevor Lawrence and TUA where it kind of just depends on the game. I don't trust TUA in bad weather up north. Trevor Lawrence makes too many mistakes. And Aaron's. He is a pocket quarterback. So that's kind of what you're looking at. Can you make the playoffs with the ninth best quarterback in the afc? Absolutely. Especially if your defense is great. But that's kind of where he's at right now. He's sort of in that to a Trevor Lawrence, Aaron Rodgers, I think that's fair. He's 41. He's a strictly a pocket quarterback. And Arthur Smith, six years coach and coordinators, had one top 10 offense. Remember, the Steelers lost their best running back, their left tackle and their best receiver. No other team in the NFL had that kind of losses in offensive production.

[Matt Hasselbeck]

One more Herd. The herd streams 24 hours a day, seven days a week within the iHeartRadio app. Search herd to listen live or on demand whenever you'd like.

[Covino]

Hey, we're Covino and Rich, Fox Sports radio every day, 5 to 7pm Eastern. But here's the thing. We never have enough time to get to everything we want to get to.

[Rich]

And that's why we have a brand new podcast called Over Promised. You see, we're having so much fun in our two hour show. We never get to everything, honestly, because this guy is over promising things we never have time for.

[Paul Pierce]

Yeah, you blubber lips. Blaming me.

[Covino]

Well, you know what? It's called Over Promise. You should be good at it because you've been over promising women for years.

[Rich]

Well, it's a Covino and Rich after show and we want you to be a part of it. We're gonna be talking sports, of course, but we're also gonna talk life and relationships. And if Rich and I are arguing about something or we didn't have enough time, it will continue on our after show called Over Promised.

[Covino]

Well, if you don't get enough Covino and Rich, make sure you check out Over Promised and also uncensored, by the way, so maybe we'll go at it even a little harder. It's gonna be the best after show podcast of all time.

[Rich]

There you go. Over promising. And remember, you could see it on YouTube, but definitely. Join us. Listen to Over Promised with Covino and rich on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Jason McIntyre]

Summer is here, and you can now get almost anything you need for your sunny days delivered with Uber Eats. Now, what do we mean by almost? Well, you can't get a well groomed lawn delivered, but you can get chicken parm delivered. A day at the lake? That's a no. A Philly cheesesteak? That's a yes. A nice tan. Sorry. A box fan? Happily, yes. What about a day of sunshine? Not happening. How about a box of fine wines? Yeah, that's happening. Delivery's on its way. Okay, how about some clear skies? Nope. Well, how about some french fries? Yeah. So how about a freshly cut lawn? Can't help you there. But a barbecued prawn? Order it and it's on its way. Even throw in some paper towels. Clean up after the feast. So while you can't get fun in the sun delivered, don't worry because you can get pork buns delivered. Uber Eats can definitely get you that. Get almost, almost anything delivered with Uber Eats. Order now. Alcohol in select markets. Product availability may vary by region. See app for details.

[Campaign for Tobacco Free Kids]

Nearly 90% of kids who vape say flavors are why they do it.

[Colin Cowherd]

A lot of the flavors that I've heard are like peach, mango, watermelon. It makes it seem like more childlike and innocent. Oh, I tried this once. It won't be that much of a problem. But then eventually it becomes a problem.

[Campaign for Tobacco Free Kids]

It's time to restrict the sale of flavored tobacco products in Oregon and protect our kids from nicotine addiction. Urge lawmakers to Pass Senate Bill 702A. Take action at flavorshookoregonkids.org paid for by the Campaign for Tobacco Free Kids Action Fund.

[Jason McIntyre]

At the end of the season, there's only one team that can call themselves NBA champs. Only one player that can call themselves the number one pick in the NFL draft. Well, there's only one electric SUV worthy of the title. The ultimate. The all electric BMW ix. What I love about the IX is that it delivers legendary BMW performance. While its sleek design exudes innovative style from the inside out. Not to mention how much space and utility it provides. Over 75 cubic feet of cargo space. The IX is completely changing the game with an all electric suv. The greatest legends of sports never compromise any part of the game. So why would you settle for anything less from your suv? After all, there's only one ultimate ultimate the BMW ix. Everything you love about the ultimate driving machine.

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[Paul Pierce]

Paul Pierce, 19 years the hall of Famer, is now joining us.

[J.J. McCarthy]

What's up?

[Paul Pierce]

Not every. Not every teammate, Paul is like that. Not every teammate's happy when you get yours. In Boston, you guys were stars. You're a star. Rondo wanted the ball. You had Ray Allen, you had kg. Halliburton generally appears joyful on winning more than everything in your career. Is that common?

[J.J. McCarthy]

Wow, that's. That's a great question. It depends on type of leader you got in the locker room and depends on what, what's. What's driving Them. And it depends on, like, what's the goal? What are we trying to accomplish? You know, people talk about winning, but are they willing to do the necessary things to help them win or is it just more about them? And I don't see that about Halliburton, it being about him. He just wants to win. And the thing. And I said this yesterday on the speak. I said, like, his play is uncommon in today. His play is unorthodox. Which is. Which is strange because when you look at the. The common point guards of today, he's a traditional point guard in my era. Today he's unorthodox.

[Paul Pierce]

Right.

[J.J. McCarthy]

You know what I'm saying? Like, he's a passport first point guard. And that's why people don't look at him like a superstar. And that's why. But his effect on the game is the same as a superstar. And that's what I've been trying to tell people.

[Paul Pierce]

Yeah. Was. You know what's funny? I. It is the playoffs, especially these playoffs, you don't get the whistle. I mean, they're going to let you play. I thought a big part of this last night was SGA didn't get to the free throw line. This team is 4 and 4 in the playoffs when he doesn't get 8 or more free throws. Some of this is. And James Harden was totally reliant on the whistle. You weren't. Kobe wasn't. But like, that's not a knock on sga. But the record is clear.

[J.J. McCarthy]

Yeah.

[Paul Pierce]

Because Holmgren's game is still a little uneven. You're never quite sure what you get. Last night Lou dort hit threes. I think SGA is a little whistle dependent. Is that fair?

[J.J. McCarthy]

You know, it's 50, 50 with him. Because some nights he gets the whistle. I mean, he's still good for 25 to 30. You know, I mean, think about it. He had 24 last night, didn't get the whistle. I mean, he could still put the ball in the bucket, but. But I think he's just getting worn down. Colin. He's getting worn down. Did you see at the end of the game? They were picking him up full. They're playing the long game. They're like, all right, he may get us in the beginning, but we gonna pick up full court. By the time that fourth quarter come, he's gonna be so worn down because he has to do it on both ends of the court. He has to defend. Cause Indiana's making them defend too.

[Paul Pierce]

That's right. That's right.

[J.J. McCarthy]

You know, they Throwing picks on them, they fouling them pretty hard and they're picking up full. That wears on you. I've been on other games, like just getting picked up full court or somebody just on your body at all times, that wears you down throughout the course of the game. And in the fourth quarter, when you got to do so much for your team, it's draining. It's draining when you're. When you got those guys who don't hit the shots. Now you got to get back on defense. It's draining when they score and then you take the ball out. I get it, and I'm the point guard and they picking me up baseline to baseline, and that's what I'm seeing right there. They're getting tired. It's clear.

[Paul Pierce]

I want to shift to the New York Knicks. Rachel Nickel was on an hour ago. Rachel Nichols. I. My take is if you're going to fire anybody in any position, you got to have a plan. You got to have somebody in the. Waiting in the car, waiting in the sedan outside, ready to come in. It doesn't sound like the Knicks had a plan. What was your kind of take on the firing at Tibbs?

[J.J. McCarthy]

I thought it was kind of unjust based on, you know, what Tibbs was able to accomplish this year. You know, he got him to the conference finals, and I think he maxed out the team because everybody saw the Knicks for who, what. What they were throughout the regular season, and everybody was like, okay, yeah, they're a second round exit team.

[Jason McIntyre]

Right? Right.

[J.J. McCarthy]

They made it to the conference finals, won a lot of games in the regular season. But I think their roster, based on the other rosters I'm looking at in Eastern Conference, I think he maxed them out. They were deficient. They didn't have a bench. And even if Tibbs didn't play them, when he did play them, I mean, how productive were they? Because when you look at the likes of Indiana, when you look at Boston and teams of that nature in the Eastern Conference, these guys had depth, and that's something that the Knicks were front heavy. So I think he maxed out the roster. So I don't think a coach coming in the roster is what the roster is. The coach, it's not the coach. You're going to have to get more pieces for this team to get over the hump. I don't care who you bring in. You can bring in Red R back, you can bring in Phil Jackson. This team maxed out.

[Paul Pierce]

You know, Paul, it's interesting, we forget they had Hartenstein and Dante DiVincenzo last year, and Dante's a great three point shooter. How many times in the Knicks series did we go, God, they need one more guy to hit a three. They had him, he's off to Minnesota. So they lost really valuable pieces and it showed up against Indiana, man, I'm.

[J.J. McCarthy]

Telling you, I tell people this. If they didn't make no trade and stood pat, they were injured last year.

[Paul Pierce]

Yeah.

[J.J. McCarthy]

All they had to do was stand pat. If they stand pat, we're not. We're probably talking about the Knicks in the Finals because you would have had depth, you would have had more experience from a year ago. Randle would have gave you pretty much what Cat gave you on both ends of the court. But you would have had the depth. You would have had guys off the bench that you can depend on. So you know, it is what it is moving forward. I don't know where the Knicks go from here as far as coaching, but they're right there. Take nothing away from. They're right there. They're a piece away. No matter what coach you bring in, they're a piece away.

[Paul Pierce]

So this is one of the better domestic drafts. Last year was a heavy international draft. We got Duke players, Rutgers players. There's a lot of American kids in this draft. Cooper flags the overwhelming favorite. I have made the comp that I think he's a more aggressive Jason Tatum. Maybe not today, but that's how I see the comp. You don't like that comp?

[J.J. McCarthy]

Colin, if you don't get out of here with that talk about Jason Tatum. So you telling me that Cooper flags offensive package is equivalent to Jason Tatum, a guy who's averaged 30 in the lead? 28, 27. You think Cooper can do. I love Cooper and I love what he's done, you know, throughout his career. He's a young guy too. I look at him more of like a Andre Karolenko, you know, he can play both ends, maybe a little more offense than Karolenko. But you gotta understand, Karolinko was an all star in this team, in this, in this league. Do I see him as a superstar? I don't know yet. I'm not quite sure yet. You know, how is he in the pick and roll? How is he initiating offense? How is he? You know, I look at other things when I look at primary scorers and guys who lead their team. How is this playmaking? You know, off the dribble, when he's getting trapped, when he's in different situations now. He's still young and he'll learn these things. But I saw those things from Jason Tatum at Duke, already playing a pick and roll, playing on the ball, initiating offense, off the ball, on the ball. So will he be an impact player in the league? I believe so, because he does too many things to not be an impact. Offensively, he can knock down shots. Defensively, he's a terror. His engine is a talent. And that's something that people don't talk about. Having that type of motor is a talent in this league. Because when I think about motor, there's only a certain few guys that have a motor that's head and shoulders above everybody. When you talk about antetokounmpo and guys like Westbrook, you know, that's just that, that extra ump. And he has that.

[Paul Pierce]

By the way, Cooper averaged 19 a game at Duke as a freshman. Tatum averaged 17. So they were very similar. I. I do think even Tatum's dad has mentioned this. I think Cooper's a more aggressive player. And that's just. That's almost DNA stuff. I can't explain it. They're just guys that want the shot.

[J.J. McCarthy]

I, I agree with that. He. He's a more aggressive player as far as attacking the basketball, because I don't think he's as good a shooter as Tatum either, though. That's fair, you know, so you take one, give one. Like, I was more like Tatum's probably was. Well, I wouldn't say a better shooter, but I like to attack the basket. But I mean, you know, it just like you said, it's in the DNA. And it's also what the coaches are allow. Allowing these guys. You know, when I look at the Celtics, I mean, they're a three point heavy shooting team. And I was thinking about it this morning when I watched the finals, Kyle, I saw that both teams combined to shoot. I believe it was like 27 threes and 20, like 49 threes combined. And I've seen on multiple occasions, you know, The Celtics shoot 50 plus threes and it's just like, wow.

[Paul Pierce]

By the way, do you think the Celtics go for Giannis? Make a big move, Move Jaylen Brown, like, what is your feeling on what Boston does? You have a. You have a sense of that culture.

[J.J. McCarthy]

I'm not sure it'd be necessary to go for a Giannis as long as Jayson Tatum is out. And I don't know the timetable on when he come back. And even if he does come back, he won't be the Jayson Tatum that we saw leaving the playoffs. You know, it's going to take some time to get back to that. You know, if it were me, I kind of like let the year play out and make decisions. I wouldn't be too fast to make decisions. I'll see where the team is and what direction we're going in and if there's something I can do at the trade deadline that's going to benefit, benefit them in the long run or even in the now, I'll make that move. But like, I wouldn't just be like, well, Jason's hurt, let's throw away the year. I'm gonna sit back and see and be patient because most of the times when you make these hasty decisions and decisions that are too quick, you most likely make the wrong decision on the team. So I hope they just sit back and be patient and see what they.

[Paul Pierce]

Need so you have the most all time game winning buzzer beaters. Mater assistant on regular and postseason, Indiana is the most clutch team in the playoffs. Nine one in clutch time. Oklahoma City, because they won by an average of 13 points in the regular season, is a really young team that hasn't been in a lot of close games. I thought down the stretch the last six minutes last night I thought Oklahoma City shot creation was bad. I didn't think they got good looks. I thought Indiana just got better looks. And I thought to myself, Indiana lives in these kind of games. They're in these games every night and I, I feel like, okay, it's a little bit of a negative with okc, Paul. It's like a football team that blows there. I always feel about the Baltimore Ravens with Lamar. They blow so many people out in the regular season. They're not used to a one possession game. And I think OKC looked a little off late last night.

[J.J. McCarthy]

Well, yeah, those teams are front runners, Collins. And there's nothing wrong with that because I've seen front running teams win. It's just that they're not used to being in that situation. When you're blowing teams out at a historic rate. Now when the game is close and tightness starting to set in, they panic. And that's what we call front runners. I mean look at the numbers. If you just look at the numbers in the fourth quarter alone in this series, it's drastic how Indiana is outplaying them in the fourth quarter when the game is tight. Indiana got better and it just look at, did you see last night they miss free throws they don't normally miss. I saw Jalen miss what, three, was it three or four straight free throws and then it was like, whoa, it was obvious. If it wasn't obvious before, it was obvious last night, just at the free throw line alone, that you were like, whoa, it got tight in there. And to their credit, they're a young team. And I said this. This is why I picked the Indiana Pacers. People don't understand, like, when I watch them top to bottom, coaching their stars, and you ask me, like, who are their stars? That's right. We don't know, because it's a different star every single night. And that's what makes them tough to play. Like, what am I doing? If I'm OKC and I'm in the locker room saying, oh, we have to prepare for Neesmith and Nemhardt? Oh, but they didn't show up yesterday. Oh, but now Matheran goes for 20. It's so unpredictable. And that's why I picked them, those teams. For me, Colin, when we. You know, it's the toughest games for me to play in. Say, like, we played a team and the star was out. So now you're like, oh, it's easy to prepare for what I know. I know what he is. It's easy to prepare for that. But when now the unpredictability sets in, it's like, anybody can go off. And that's who Indiana is. It's so unpredictable. It's tough to prepare for them.

[Paul Pierce]

Yeah, If Siakam had 29 points next game, you wouldn't be surprised by that at all. No, and if he had a seven, you wouldn't be surprised. I mean, look, TJ McConnell took over the game in the second quarter.

[J.J. McCarthy]

It's crazy, right? They have so many unsung heroes. I'll tell you this story. We were at the end of the year in 2010, and we were positioning ourselves for the playoffs, and we were like, all right, should we win these games or lose these games? Should we rest and get ready? It was. Our seating was on the line, and we got into the meeting, me, Rondo, Ray, and kg, he said, who would y' all rather play in the second round? I think it was like, Orlando and Cleveland, because Orlando was like a two seed and Cleveland was a one seed. We were like, let's play the number one seed in the second round with LeBron. It's easier. Us. It's easier for us to prepare for him because we know it's all about him now. That Orlando team was a little more unpredictable. Yeah, they got Dwight, but they got Turgolu, Rashar Lewis, Jameer Nelson. They got all these Other guys. That's like a little. I don't know who's gonna be the next star on any given night. LeBron. LeBron in Cleveland was easier to prepare for, even though they were the number one seed and won 66 games.

[Paul Pierce]

Paul Pierce, the Hall of Famer, he's on Speak after us. Good seeing you, as always, my man.

[J.J. McCarthy]

Always.

[Matt Hasselbeck]

Be sure to catch live editions of the Herd, weekdays at noon Eastern, 9am Pacific on Fox Sports Radio, FS1, and the iHeartRadio app.

[Paul Pierce]

Oh, here we go. It is a Friday. It is great, great to have you in. J. Mac and I ready to roll on a Friday. J. Mac tonight, of course, Game four, pivotal game for the NBA Finals. I am falling in love with this Indiana Pacer team. We'll have Rick Bucher on next hour to talk some of that. You know, J. Mac, it is the summer of love in the NFL because we had the combine and then we had the Dragon draft. And nobody has a bad draft. Everybody gets an A or a B, right? Nobody's got a bad draft. And then we got OTAs. Oh, these guys are amazing. And I want to talk about that. It's the summer of love. I saw this story this morning. Aaron Rodgers blares the headline and Mike Tomlin form a unique super bowl partnership. Okie dokie. I saw another story. Bo Nix is playing fast. Here's another one. One of his teammates in Minnesota says J.J. mcCarthy, who has never played an official NFL regular season game, reminds him of another quarterback.

[Matt Hasselbeck]

He understands that we have to build a family here and that, you know, you can't have unique results without unique relationships that we believe in. And then, man, he's got some confidence. And he reminds me of like Josh Allen when I was with him in Buffalo. Coming into his own and understanding the power that he had has to lead this organization. And he's doing a fantastic job doing that.

[Paul Pierce]

J.J. mcCarthy reminds him of Josh Allen. Okay, that's a little hot for me. Here's what's really going to happen this regular season, and all of us know it, is that this league is now, because of rule changes, a 70, 30 quarterback coach. League as great as Andy Reid is, he only started hoisting trophies when he got Patrick Mahomes. Now, it may be a 65, 35 league quarterback coach. It may be a, a 75, 25, but it's about a 70, 30 swing. So if you have a star quarterback and he has at least a B coach, he's gonna make the playoffs. If you have a really good quarterback with an A coach, he's probably going to make the playoffs. So these are not my playoff predictions, but this is what I believe makes the playoffs generally. Either a star quarterback with a B coach or better or an A coach with a really, really good quarterback that is often young and getting better. The first group, in my opinion, the five best quarterbacks in the NFL are Patrick Mahomes, Matt Stafford, Josh Allen, Lamar Jackson and Joe Burke. I know you don't love Zach Taylor, but he got to a Super Bowl. He's had a lot of big wins for a young coach. I think he's bright. I don't always love his clock management, but I didn't like Andy Reid's before. He had a great quarterback. I'm going to go. They'll make the playoffs. The next group, Jaden Daniels, Justin Herbert, C.J. stroud, Hertz and Goff. I know, I know Nick Ceriani don't love him, but if you win a Super Bowl, I gotta make you be coach. The team buys into them. And then the third group, and it's mostly a group where I love the coach. Jordan Love and Matt LaFleur, Bo Nixon, Sean Payton, Brock Purdy and Kyle Shanahan and Drake May and Vrabel. This group, I generally like the quarterback. I like the coach more than the quarterback, but the quarterback's good enough. These are not my playoff predictions, but mine are pretty darn close to this. And my get now I don't have Darnold or Baker or Geno and they're really close. Or Caleb. Those guys were next in line. You know who's not? Aaron Rodgers and Mike Tomlin. Because Aaron's not close to his prime and Mike doesn't make quarterbacks better. And as much as we talk about the revelation of J.J. mcCarthy or, or, or, or the special relationship in Pittsburgh, this is an incredibly predictable league. And in the AFC with a higher end quarterbacks, it's even easier. Last couple years, it's been a really easy conference to predict division winners again. I had Darnold close and I actually have Darnold in the playoffs. Geno's close. I think he is Darnold. I got, I got Caleb close. Love his coach. But by and large, all this summer of love, we all kind of know what it's going to look like by the first week of February. All right, so maybe the biggest story of the week has been the Knicks firing tibs. That was a couple weeks ago, but it's interesting. Yesterday I'm hearing some of the Knicks players like Jalen Brunson saying, hey, this guy deserves love. Well, of course he does, but when you fire somebody. My wife used to work in HR and I remember when I first met her 20 years ago and she said something, she had worked in the hiring business. She said overwhelmingly, people fire themselves. They know it's coming. Well, I don't think Tibbs knew it was coming and I don't think he fired himself. And here's why I keep hearing this. You know, the Knicks weren't creative enough offensively. The Knicks, The Knicks made some moves and didn't get better. So last year at this time, one calendar year from today, they had Dante DiVincenzo. They not only had him, he was their number one three point shooter. They had Julius Randall, who was their number two playmaker behind Brunson, number two in scoring, number two in assists. They also had Isaiah Hartenstein, their starting center, big time energy guy. So any team that loses their best three point shooter in a three point shooting league, their number two playmaker and a high energy starting center, you, you would think, whoo, boy, that's going to be rough. The Knicks were actually better in the regular season, went further in the playoffs, and were actually slightly better offensively in that rating, 7 to 5. It's like the Knicks fired their trainer because they only lost 12 pounds and they wanted to lose 15. Yeah, maybe your diet's not good enough. That's why the Tibbs thing has always been about personnel. I like Mikhail Bridges, but he's not consistent offensively. I like Cat, he's bad defensively, certainly not as good as Hartenstein. So my, my take on this whole thing is generally, and I think my wife was right, people do fire themselves.

[Jason McIntyre]

Right.

[Paul Pierce]

They're inconsistent, they're not reliable, they're toxic, they're just not very good. But Tibbs actually won more games regular season, one more games in the playoffs and was slightly better offensively, losing his number two playmaker, his best three point shooter. And I would argue Hartenstein is a more complete center than Robinson, who's all defense, or Cat, who's all offense. And Paul Pierce talked about this yesterday.

[J.J. McCarthy]

When you look at the likes of Indiana, when you look at Boston and teams of that nature in the Eastern Conference, these guys had depth. And that's something that the Knicks were front heavy. So I think he maxed out the roster. So I don't think a coach coming in the roster is what the roster is. The coach, it's not the coach. You're going to have to get more pieces for this team. To get over the hump. I don't care who you bring in. You can bring in Red R back, you can bring in Phil Jackson. This team maxed out.

[Paul Pierce]

And what's interesting is of all the teams that Kevin Durant is rumored to be going to, there's four that are getting mentioned. The Knicks are one of those teams, meaning even New York Knick fans, New York Nick media and NBA insiders believe they could really use another catch and shoot guy. So you're acknowledging the personnel isn't quite right. And beyond all of this is the fact that you and I are watching the Indiana Pacers. They've got more good players. Miles Turner is a better rim defender than Robinson and a better center, better offensively. Pascal Sayakam, to me, I would rather have him on the floor than Cat Halliburton. To me, is a more complete guard than Jalen Brunson. And they've got a couple of other players who shoot threes more consistently, it feels like to me, than Mikhail Bridges. Indiana's got better players now. You could say, well, they got a better coach. Well, he's been fired twice, too. So when I look at Indiana and I look at the Knicks, and the Knicks gave. I mean, the Knicks gave the Pacers more trouble than Cleveland did, more trouble than Milwaukee did, in about the same level of trouble Oklahoma City is. So if you start watching, I mean, remember that ball that bounced high into the air and went in for the Pacers? Some felt that was the difference in the series for a while. So the Tibbs thing is it's not just that the Knicks didn't have the next coach in waiting, is you're acknowledging it's a personnel issue. That's why you want want kd. They got better in the regular season, better in the playoffs, and a slightly better net rating. I don't know. That feels like a job promotion, not a pink slip. All right, J. Mac, we got a lot of things going on today. You know, tonight's game. What's the number? In fact, I think it's OKC is a big favorite tonight, right?

[Rich Eisen]

Yeah. OKC minus six now it's dipped to five and a half in some spots. Obviously, I'm shocked that the market didn't move yesterday when I said I'm on the Pacers in Game four. But, you know, whatever. I'm surprised you haven't picked the game yet.

[Paul Pierce]

I don't feel I'm not going to bet against Indiana here. We both loved Indiana in Game three. Just think about what could happen tonight in American sports, everybody, you know, the people that cover this league in the locker rooms day in, day out. If you would have pulled the coaches and the GMs, nobody would have picked Indiana to win the championship. They were not favored against first rounder Milwaukee. Now we, I think we both love them over Milwaukee. We thought it was a great matchup for them. I didn't like him over Cleveland. You did New York, Indiana. I kind of liked Indiana, but it was slight and I liked Oklahoma City. Think about all the knowledge in the NBA, the media, the coaches, the GMs. If you'd have polled all of them, including the players. Remember Halliburton was voted most overrated player. Nobody would have picked the Pacers to win the championship. And if they win tonight, they will be up 3:1. And I think that the numbers are something like, like 88%, 92% winning if they win that game, which by the way, they have been the much better fourth quarter team Y Oklahoma City is clearly younger and not as good on the road. And Halberton right now is once again like he did against Milwaukee, Cleveland and New York controlling the pace of the series.

[Rich Eisen]

Okay, see by the way, 08 against the spread on the road have not covered one road game in the postseason yet. For some reason everybody's obsessed with their season long net rating. Everybody's got OKC tonight. Colin. I don't see it. Give me the Pacers.

[Paul Pierce]

Once Again, teams are 37 and 1 in the finals when leading 3 to 1. If Indiana wins tonight, folks, what a revelation that nobody in the league, no gm, I mean outside of Indiana's group, nobody would have picked them, which I guess this is the NBA. Adam Silver wanted I know the ratings aren't great. I find it interesting.

[Colin Cowherd]

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[Jason McIntyre]

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[Colin Cowherd]

This is an I Heart podcast.