← The Herd with Colin Cowherd
The Herd with Colin Cowherd
Colin Cowherd Podcast - Insane Sports Gambling Stories on Mike Tyson, Mickelson, Ohtani, Mayweather, The Mob
00:48:14
Loading summary
Transcript63 lines
- [00:00]
A
This is an iHeart podcast. Guaranteed Human.
- [00:04]
B
This is Lavar Arrington from Up on Game. This message is brought to you by Apple Card. It's a great time to apply for an Apple Card. You'll love earning unlimited daily cash on every purchase. That includes 3% daily cash when you buy the latest iPhone, AirPods and Apple Watch at Apple through this special referral offer. When you get a new Apple card, you can earn bonus daily cash. To qualify, you must apply at Apple Co getdaily Cash Apple Card issued by Goldman Sachs Bank USA Salt Lake City. Branch offer may not be available elsewhere. Terms and limitations apply.
- [00:37]
A
The volume.
- [00:46]
B
Well, I just finished it. I was so excited. I just flew from Naples back to Chicago and I read it. It's called the Bookie Inside the High Stakes World of Sports Betting. A legendary bookmaker's tale of gangsters, celebrities and the art of the game. All the proceeds from the bookie are going to Art's two favorite charities, World Wildlife Fund and Blood Cancer United. This is fun for me because as many of you know, if you've listened to me for years, I've talked at great length about my Las Vegas being my first job out of college. Well, one of the people that was at the center of it and around it, one of the most recognizable people who was building his own career was Art Man Terrace, who started at Caesars, moved to the Hilton, where I spent almost every Saturday and Sunday as a young sportscaster. So let's start with that. There's so many things to get to and I want to take this because a lot of this stuff I want you to explain to the audience some of this stuff I knew. I am briefly in the book. And yes, I did introduce you to your wife, Sue. Beautiful, elegant, smart, all the great things. And I hope she's doing well. I know she is. Beautiful, beautiful kids. Absolutely stunning, beautiful kids. So thank you. When you think of Caesar's Palace, I'm a guy from a small town. You go to Vegas, you think, Caesar's palace, it's hairy Gluck, it's big money. It's like just Steve Wynn is becoming this big arch architect in Vegas. And you, Caesar says, art, get in here and organize our sports book. And I'm reading your stories. It was a mess. And it's amazing that this industry has grown so much. Take the audience to when you went into Caesar's, the back room to organize their sportsbook. And what you saw, well, you're right.
- [02:51]
A
That in the early days of the sportsbook industry that I joined in 1980, it was far different from the industry today. And there wasn't a whole lot of procedures and policies in place. And some of the sports books were pretty chaotic. Now, in fairness to some of the other executives at Caesars, they were hoping to do and wanting to do the same things that I did. And certainly the finance and audit people were a big help. And once they knew that they had somebody that wanted to clean things up, wanted things to be run legitimately and properly and within Gaming Control Board standards compliance standards. Yeah, they were very, very helpful also. But. But yes, it was chaotic in those days. There was very few house rules, very few standards of operational standards. And I think I was able to establish a lot of those policies that are still in place today in a lot of casinos.
- [03:52]
B
Yeah, you and Chuck Esposito were the two guys I always trusted. I always thought you guys had kind of an everyman quality. And I don't think people understand this. There were people that I knew like Lem Banker. I didn't know Billy Walters at the time. And Lem could be very manipulative, rest in peace, and very much a showman. And you know, Lem wanted what Lem wanted. But when you started in this business, you know, I'm very naive, you know, I just figured, you know, the big guys had phone accounts but they weren't working the edges. It was a big operation. But you had real run ins with Billy Walter, oral Lem Banker. And let's talk about the most famous of the gamblers, Billy Walter. And how art you listen, you were paid by the Hilton or Caesars. This is a legitimate operation. Those guys didn't want to play by your rules.
- [04:45]
A
Well, you know, I respect the folks that you're mentioning. Yeah, I certainly respect their abilities as handicappers. They were both top notch and I respect that. But they were adversaries, you know, they weren't friends and partners or colleagues. They were adversaries. And certainly that left a real divide. And so no, I didn't get along real well with certain high end sophisticated players. You know, they threatened my bottom line. And you know, and I said to a few people in recent weeks that, you know, you know, maintaining compliance, maintaining the gambling license of a company I always viewed as my top priority. Second was guest service for everyone and third was revenue. But nevertheless, the bottom line in all of that. Yeah, you know, guest service is great. You know, having great television screens and audio systems and computer systems that funct properly, that's all an important part of the business. But making money still the Bottom line. And, and it's still, after all is said and done, it's still about making money. And there were certain people, they wanted mine and I wanted theirs. And that doesn't always lead to the most comfortable of relationships.
- [06:10]
B
So I didn't know what runners were until I met people like you or Chuck Esposito. And you know, I'd sit down and be asking a million questions because I was curious about the industry and I always loved betting football. And, and you had to battle runners. A runner is somebody who is making bets for a whale, making bets for a Billy, and you know, he just can't walk in, he can get banned. Or, or you're going to have limits on him. And his way around, that is, I'm going to have 30 guys, spread them around the city. Could you tell? Because, you know, you had your guys, your tellers. Could you tell that's a runner? That's not. I mean, how difficult was that for you, that game of cat and mouse?
- [06:49]
A
Well, it was difficult. And in Nevada there are regulations prohibiting what's called messenger betters. And that, you know, slang term is runners, of course, but that, but they are folks that are paid to wager on behalf of others. And by the way, just coincidentally, in recent months, New Jersey has passed laws banning proxy wagering, as it's called in their regulations, and that prohibits people from using other people's phone accounts. And that's, you know, very, very similar end result. In answer to your question, sometimes, not always, but sometimes, you know, you know, I mean, if there would be certain tip offs if you believed somebody was runner and, and, and certainly if you, with today's technology, you could see point spread movement around the industry. And, and, and you know, my, my longstanding statement to my staff was, well, either this guy has ESP or, or he's working with some. Yeah, if the line's changing across the industry simultaneously as somebody's playing, that's a pretty fair indication of where the source of those funds might be coming from. But there's no tried and true standard answer that gives me or anyone else the ability to determine that definitively. It's a pretty tough question to answer, but there are indications and I always try to err on the side of caution rather than the side of leniency.
- [08:19]
B
You know, there's a story. When I was a kid growing up, the most well known NBA official was Earl Strom. He was very boisterous. He was very, very much theater and charismatic. And there's a story in your book about, and this just goes to show you the lengths. You didn't have the Internet back then. I mean it was basically you tell a story about to get to figure out because gamblers felt like, oh, he has a tendency to blank as a ref or do this. It's not rigged, it's not throwing a game. But referees are human. They have tendencies. For years and years there were certain officials that just were willing to give the, the road team, maybe Steve Javi. For years I always was told that hey, he'll go into a harsh arena, he'll give the road team the call, he won't be intimidated, like maybe young refs or college refs. But tell the Earl Strom story because I thought that was fascinating. Fascinating.
- [09:17]
A
Well, well, there was a, a very sophisticated gambler who I was friendly with, very friendly with. I actually played softball together. He was a terrific slow pitch softball pitcher and one of those old timers that really knew the game. And, and, and, and we were very friendly. I didn't realize the extent of his sophistication as a sports bettor because again, he wasn't making most of his bets in person. Others were. So I didn't put it, put two and two together for, for, for quite some time. But later he did tell, tell me the story of, of how he, he would track Earl Strong because he believed that he had strong tendencies. And, and he believed that his officiating could, could, could dramatically affect NBA totals. And he, you know, his, his total bets were, were based in large part on where Earl Strom was going to be officiating. And, and, and as you said, there was no Internet back then, so he didn't. Well, he had somebody following Earl Strom to determine what city he was flying to.
- [10:20]
B
That just cracks me up. Basically Earl Strom had spies. Oh, Earl's in Detroit tonight. Bet the over.
- [10:27]
A
Yes, that's, that's right.
- [10:29]
B
So what happens in your career? I fell in love with boxing when I moved to Vegas and there are times it could be a Pacquiao Mayweather fight or a Buster Douglas Tyson fight where by proxy you have information that is kind of viewed as inside information. What do you do when you know something maybe you shouldn't know? You stumble on it or you're so connected Art, you just find things out. Right. In those instances, if you could take the audience through one or two of those where that's. Is that a dilemma for you?
- [11:07]
A
It absolutely is a dilemma. And you know, for many years, particularly after you left Las Vegas, got real involved in boxing. I was very involved in signing big fights and operating the fights and being part of the publicity tours for various big fights. And I never saw, I never thought anything about it. It was just part of my job. And I, and I love doing, I love being around boxing, I love running sports books. And so, so, you know, it didn't, it didn't bother me. I didn't feel any, any, any great conflict until the, until the Mayweather Pacquiao fight. And in that fight I did find out some very, very important inside information. And, and it left me in a real dilemma. Before the fight, I was told straight up that Pacquiao was hurt and could not win the fight. And when you watch the fight, that's exactly what happened, that he was one armed fighter that night. He immediately had shoulder surgery shortly after the fight. And it became crystal clear to me that there must be a very clear separation between participation in sports, including on the promotional end, and gambling on sports. And I've preached that message ever since. And I did work for the NBA as a consultant for many years. And of course they loved that message, as did the other leagues, because I would be at various conferences and speaking engagements and I felt a great deal of camaraderie with the leagues on that issue. That's why, Colin, the embracing of gambling now by the leagues has been surprising to me. I mean, I knew that there was going to be some cooperation. Data sharing, for example, for in play wagering, video signals into casinos and sportsbooks, of course, is another form of cooperation. And I, that I, that I certainly expected. But the, but the, the, the amount of official sponsorships and official partnerships with the gambling companies, that, that has, that has really surprised me. And, and, and, and, and I think that that message can't stand. It's not going to stay there forever because there's going to be pushback inevitably. And, and you know, and I look around the world, the world of sports gambling and you know, you look to Europe where sports gambling has been legal now for something like 25 years or 30 years and sportsbook advertising is not legal. And there's great pushback now in the UK and Ireland and the Netherlands and Germany and elsewhere around the world. The U.S. of course, is still going 100 miles an hour the opposite direction. And you know, I think that's a terribly mixed message that the leagues are trying to send right now. You know, they, they, they tell their players and their staffs, their coaches and even office personnel how they must stay away from gambling, how, how evil gambling is. And yet they're signing these partnership Agreements and in some cases even wearing gambling company logos on the shirts on their shirts. So, so I, I think it's confusing to a lot of young athletes and it's, it's going to continue to cause problems until there is a day of reckoning. And I, yeah, I hope that the leagues address this issue themselves rather than have it imposed upon them.
- [14:46]
B
Yeah. And let's, you know, prop bets are something I think that worry people. I've said before, I worry about not betting the spread as much because games are monitored. You always knew and you predicted this and you told the NBA when you sat down with David Stern, watch the officials. It's not going to be about the players. It's going to be college kids because they don't have any money and it's going to be officials. And so what's interesting is the Tim Donaghy situation happened and it was, I will say this, and I've talked to Tim Donache. It was. Let, let's, let's take it back because I, for years argued Vegas is the ally of the pro leagues. They don't want, listen, the margins are thin on this stuff. The last thing they want is for there to be illegal gambling. They'll tell the leagues we're getting burned on this game or we're getting burned by this official. So let's go back to the Tim Donaghy situation where he wasn't necessarily changing outcomes, he was changing overs and unders. And take the audience back because I want to get them into your book. Were you shocked by Donaghy?
- [15:58]
A
I was caught off guard. I did not see that it was happening and I have great regret about that. And I talk about that in the book. I wish I had caught would have been very difficult to see though, because we did not get bet on those games or those totals. So there was no unusual money flooding into the Las Vegas casinos like there was, for example, in the Arizona State point shaving scandal of the mid-90et, which was easy to see and I was so proud of the industry for seeing it, doing the right thing, notifying the leagues, notifying in that case, the NCAA and of course the Nevada Gaming Control Board, having everything documented, videotaped, etc. We handled the situation perfect perfectly. So I took great pride in that and I took that part of my job seriously, monitoring for those types of improprieties. The Donaghy scandal, though, did. Was very upsetting to me. You know, and seeing David Stern before the media when that was first reported was heartbreaking. He was, you know, he was genuinely crushed, hurt by what had happened. It was plain to see. You could see the pain on his face and that's how I felt too. But today it's, you know, far different. And you know, mentioning the prop bets, I've, I was, I've never been an advocate of prop bets on college athletes. I did wind up doing it the last, last several years that I was in the business, but I had to, to keep up with the Joneses. By that time, by that time, you know, in the, in the late 20, 18, 19 and early 20s, you couldn't not have prop bets up on, on the college football championship game or the final Four. You know, it was expected by that time by consumers and you had to accommodate your consumers. So I did do it, but I never liked it. But what's happened now in the last couple years with, you know, in pro baseball and pro basketball has been very surprising and devastating to, to me and that, that, that, that is going to be very tough to control. Prop betting and in play wagering has become a very fun, enjoyable pastime for thousands and thousands of consumers. So it's going to be hard to roll that back. But on college sports it should be rolled back. And I, and I am a strong, strong advocate of the industry doing away with prop wagering on college sports or on call it individual athlete athletic performance.
- [18:42]
B
Today's show brought to you by our presenting sponsor, Hard Rock Bet, Florida's best sports book. I know it's tough with no football, but like the song says, I will survive. Hard Rock Bet, always something to bet every single night. Hoops, hockey, so much more. All the great same game parlays, live betting player props. Hard Rock Bet is the official sports betting partner of the Miami Heat and the Orlando Magic. So they know their basketball as well. If you haven't signed up yet for Hard Rock Bet, never been a better time. Signups, double your winnings on your first 10 bets. Maximum 50 bucks. If you would have won 200 bucks in your bet, make that 200. Hard Rock bet Sportsbook only legal sportsbook for wherever you're in Florida or you also if you live in Arizona, Ohio, New Jersey, Indiana, Tennessee, Michigan, coming soon to more states. Hard Rock Bet's got new promos daily. Whenever you're listening, just open the app, check it out any day of the week. Download the Hard Rock Bet app and make your first deposit payable in bonus bets. Not a cash offer offered by the Seminole Tribe of Florida in Florida offered by Seminole Hard Rock Digital LLC in all their states. Must be 21 plus and physically present in Arizona, Colorado, Florida, Illinois, Indiana, New Jersey, Ohio, Tennessee or Virginia. To play terms and conditions apply. Concern about gambling in Florida, call 1-888- admit it in Indiana. If you or somebody you know has a problem, wants help, call 1-800-9 with it gambling problem, call 1-800- GAMBLER Arizona, Colorado, Illinois, New Jersey, Ohio, Tennessee, Virginia. This month, iHeartRadio is celebrating the stars of the 2026 Winter Games. Raised in the mountains of Silverthorne, Colorado, Red Gerard is a snowboarder. Snowboard. After shocking the world with a gold medal as a teenager in 2018, he's matured into one of the most consistent riders on the mountain. Known for finding creative lines that no one else sees. He brings a smooth, effortless style to the slopestyle course. Gerard drops in at Milano Cortina, looking to climb back to the top of the Olympic podium. For more Winter Games gold, Search olympics on the iHeartRadio app. I want to go back to the Tyson Buster Douglas fight, where Mike Tyson, I think was a 421 favorite. I can remember going on the air and saying it's the safest bet of all time. In fact, a friend of mine, a friend of mine was at the California Pizza Kitchen at the at the then time New Mirage and we were at the California Pizza and the fight was that night. And he goes, hey, I'm gonna bet $10 on Buster Douglas. I said, just buy a chicken. California pizza. Chicken barbecue chicken pizza. That is a way better bet than Buster Douglas. Some guy from Ohio. Of course, I was exceptionally wrong. Go back to that fight. What happens in your space when it is the upset of a decade in any sport? Is that a miserable experience for you?
- [21:38]
A
Well, I didn't even book that fight. I didn't take wages on it. I thought if I considered it an out price, meaning it was ridiculous. It wasn't a competitive event. Buster Douglas had fought at the Hilton about a year earlier and lost to Tony Tucker and did not impress me at all. He was lethargic and just uninspired performance completely and didn't look good at all. And I'd seen him in some other fights too, on his way up the ladder. Not very impressive to me. Tyson, of course, was annihilating everybody at that time. But in retrospect, Buster Douglas had lost his mother shortly before the fight and he dedicated his next fight to his to the memory of his mom. Fought the fight of his life. He really did fight a terrific fight that night. Tyson, on the other hand, was an emotional wreck in his Personal life. And I came to learn later in this case, I learned this in this inside information after the fact, not before the fact. But I was told by a very good friend and my personal physician, who happened to be Mike's personal physician also, and also the chairman of the Nevada Athletic Commission, that Mike had been suffering from an STD and was under heavy medication at the time of the fight. And it wasn't the first time that he fought under those conditions. The first time in the Trevor Berbick fight, it didn't, it didn't hurt his performance at all. Second time it did. Yeah. The one, by the way, by the way, colin, that, that 42 to one that you're referencing, that, that was Jimmy Vaccaro at the, at the Mirage. Book the fight and he put it up 1 to 27, making Tyson a 27 to 1 favorite over Douglas. And all the money was on Tyson. Every ticket was on Tyson. He said somebody put up, somebody put up a lot of money, you know, and, and so he, he, he ratcheted the, the odds all the way up to 42 to 1 and that. And, and then got some great publicity about it afterwards and that still telling stories about it to this day.
- [23:47]
B
The when, when, when the Supreme Court rules sports gambling is legal, how does it. And then Almost simultaneously, the DraftKings, the FanDuels, we have a deal with Hard Rock Bet, who they have been a great partner for me, force me in to make silly bets. They're, they're, you know, it's a, it's a big broad relationship with shows that we've built for them beyond just picking occasional football games. But how does it affect the sports book in general? Again, I spent my Saturdays at your Las Vegas Hilton Sportsbook. I parked in the back parking lot. I came in and I parked there all day. I, I should own stock in the company has legalized gambling. All the various companies where people can now bet on apps. How does it affect the sportsbook in Vegas or Atlantic City?
- [24:42]
A
Well, the sports books in Las Vegas have not been hurt by the proliferation of gaming sports gaming across the country. Now, this year is a little bit of an anomaly. The super bowl handle was significantly down in Las Vegas and there's probably several reasons why. Number one, it wasn't a great marquee matchup. Was, you know, it was. Two teams were good. They were especially that Seattle defense was really awesome most of the season through the playoffs, of course, but nevertheless, there wasn't the big name guys. You know, there was no Tom Brady, no Dan Marino, no You know, no real marquee names in the game. The prediction markets may or may not have been a factor.
- [25:27]
B
Yes.
- [25:28]
A
And everybody having gambling in their own backyard now may be a factor. So, you know, I'm still analyzing that to know exactly what happened. Las Vegas to me is undoubtedly still the most exciting city in the world. I still love it, I still love living here and we're not going anywhere. But right now, the industry does have to take competition very seriously and get their arms around our own practices here internally from, from, you know, parking fees and costs of drinks and add on fees to hotel rooms and so on and so forth. Those things do have to be addressed now, industry wide. And I think they are. You know, people who build and run these places aren't dummies. They, they're, they're getting, they're getting it now. Yeah.
- [26:19]
B
I mean, one of the reasons my company, the Volume, embraced Hard Rock Bet is because they had brick and mortar businesses. And I, and I've said, guys, I've spent, I went to the Hilton, I was at Caesars, I want to have a relationship. Hard Rock Bet, as you know, is building one on the strip. And my take has always been I love the in person betting experience of a sports book. I also like the ability to go on a nap. But when I went to Hard Rock Bet and I can hang out in their sportsbook, I'm like, oh my God, I felt like I was at the Hilton. Maybe not as grand quite as the Hilton. I mean, let's be honest. How, when you were running the Hilton sportsbook, what percentage of betters are marks? Squares? And what percentage are sharps and pros?
- [27:07]
A
Oh boy, that's a good question. I wouldn't put everybody solely in one of those categories and, and, and not allow for a huge middle ground. There are, there are, there's a lot of people that are in the middle between the two. And some are shaded more towards a sophisticated side, some not so much, you know, and in today's world, you know, shows like yours and, and, and the data available online, the ability to investigate what's going on is so much greater than it used to be, you know, and it just, just, you know, following any, you know, certain, certain information networks online, you know, you know, it's far different than in the old days where the old timers used to brag about getting newspapers at the airport from people coming off the plane. Yeah, I mean that, that's long, you know, obviously long gone now and, and get, you know, so access to information is so much greater today. And data, data analysis is, is a very formidable part of sports handicapping today. Yeah. Which, which didn't exist in those days and, and, but, but not everybody is one extreme or the other. You know, not, you know, it's not every, you know, one segment of the market isn't just coming in and betting on their favorite team because it came from that town. And the other segment, you know, doing sophisticated analysis. There's a lot of people in between and, and one thing that I, I do point out in the book also is most guys have an opinion on sports and, and if they have an opinion on sports, they, you generally think their opinion is better than the next guys.
- [28:46]
B
Right?
- [28:46]
A
Right. Yeah. And if, and if they think their opinion is better than the average guy, then they think they could beat sports gambling.
- [28:52]
B
Yeah.
- [28:53]
A
And you know, most cannot, but some do. You know, I tell the story of my uncle Jack Franzing, Pittsburgh Jack, who was a successful sports handicapper for 60 years, never worked a full day in his life. Worked a half a day once and quit, but that was it.
- [29:13]
B
Well, I've always argued sports gambling has the hold is smaller than a lottery. People we have lotteries are legal everywhere, but they hold half the money and you have almost no shot to win. I can on any given Sunday this year, I hit 59.5% on my NFL bets. That's a pretty good number.
- [29:30]
A
That's great. That's terrific. Yeah. Very, very good. But you're right. The margins in sports are not that great make and it's a very expensive department to run in most cases. You know, the technology involved, the staffing involved, the management, the data analysis in today's world, which is a big part of the game, those things are not cheap. And when you're running on very thin margins, it's tough to make a lot of money. And that's another reason that I just don't. It doesn't make sense to me to, to, for companies to be spending enormous amounts of money to be in marketing partnerships with the leagues and teams when you know they're better. If people want to bet sports, they, they can find a place to bet sports. They could find the app, they could find us the, the casino or sportsbook in, in, in their city or in their geographic reason region. You don't need to be bombarded with, with sportsbook advertising every break in the game.
- [30:32]
B
The. Listen, there's, there's a lot of, A lot of golfers for instance, are kind of legendary gamblers. They're not part of a league. I Mean, even the PGA doesn't run Augusta or the British Open or the US Open. So.
- [30:45]
A
And.
- [30:45]
B
And golfers, I mean, these days, they make money on YouTube. They make money on teaching. They make money purses from winning events. They. Golfers have always sort of lived their own sort of life. Art, you know, they kind of doing their own thing, you know. There were rumors about Phil Mickelson forever. I read Alan Shipnock's book on Phil Mickelson, which I don't think Mickelson liked the book, but I actually thought, like, Wolf of Wall street or the Oliver Stone movie, the Gordon Gekko character. Actually, Oliver Stone wasn't trying to make him likable, but young people found him to be heroic. Oliver Stone later acknowledged that he didn't want to make Gordon Gekko likable, but it made all these young guys that want to be stockbrokers. I read Phil Mickelson's book and I'm like, okay, Phil bet he was a voracious eater, a voracious liver, a voracious better. So let's talk Phil Mickelson, who had a legendary reputation. When did you discover Phil liked to bet?
- [31:46]
A
Occasionally, late 90s. Late late 90s. He was a frequent Las Vegas customer.
- [31:54]
B
Was he a good. Better.
- [31:56]
A
Not especially until later on. But it was just like. Like most average people coming, you know, he made a ton of money, so he would bet a little bit. He would bet more than most, but. But that's the only thing that separated him from the casual fan. Other fans that would come in and. And bet their favorite teams or conferences. And he was a very likable guy. Nobody ever had any problem with him personally. He treated the staff very courteously. He signed autographs periodically. He was a very likable guy, and I have no grudge against him. I do think that he got caught up. He got in over his head and he started associating with people that he shouldn't have been a high stakes athlete like that, a very competitive athlete. But at the end of the day, he did what he should have done. You know, he got out, he stopped playing, he kept his mouth shut, and he. And in one case, he had to pay restitution, and he did that. And, you know, if I ever saw him or had the opportunity to speak to him again, I would love to. I would be glad to see him. He's. I admire him as an athlete, and I admire him for the steps that he's taken since he stopped gambling.
- [33:13]
B
So give me something the average fan would be surprised about with Sports gambling. You know, I think of myself as a square, but more in the middle than a full square. Pretty. I'm unemotional. I kind of go in. I've always said I bet numbers, I don't bet teams, I bet numbers, I don't bet players. I look at a number now. I had New England plus four and a half in the Super Bowl. I did have Sam Darnold under two touchdown passes, but I got smoked.
- [33:43]
A
But.
- [33:43]
B
But give me, by the way, that.
- [33:47]
A
59% I might be calling you next is.
- [33:51]
B
Is. Are there sports that you make money that I, we. I wouldn't believe. Are there. Are there certain sports that it's. You guys like hockey. The people that bet hockey, I would guess, really know hockey. Are there sports that are trouble For a sportsbook operator, I imagine you do pretty well in the NFL. But let's take hockey. Who bets hockey unless they know hockey? Is that a tough one?
- [34:15]
A
That's. Your analogy is spot on. And, but things changed in Las Vegas quite a bit when the Golden Knights opened up here in Las Vegas. Okay, yeah, you know, prior to that time, our decisions on hockey were minuscule, but you're right, there was a lot of sophisticated players, betters that bet hockey and not so much the general public, but that all changed overnight. And the city just totally embraced the Knights. They were so good their first year right out of the box. And it. Right when their first season started, followed by that horrible shooting on the strip from at Mandalay Bay. And the city was just shocked. And then all of a sudden this team came into our lives and everybody in town was rooting for them and they, you know, had this slogan, vegas Strong. And everybody, you know, you'd see those signs all over the city and the city loved them. And I, as a bookmaker, started getting killed in hockey game after game after game. And they came so close to winning it all. Where we would have gotten carried out if they, if they had won the championship. That was the biggest sweat of my life as a bookmaker. But yeah, now, since then, yeah, hockey's much bigger part of the betting handle in Nevada than it used to be. But, but, but football's still the king of betting sports. You know, it really is. Football is just made for sports gambling. You know, people have a week to, to do their homework and to argue with their friends and, and compare opinions and shop for numbers and, you know, and then, and then, you know, everything, everything culminates on the weekend. And, and, and that, that is, that is still the biggest betting sport in Las Vegas and, and in and in America, basketball is, Is. Is strong. Yeah. The NCAA tournament is. So baseball is, is. Is probably the lightest of the major sports. But because of the numbers of games, that total handle does add up to a lot. But, but, but, but by, but comparing individual game to individual game, baseball is, is far behind the others. The other major sports.
- [36:40]
B
I can remember this is very early days when I was, I got out of school in the high school, 82, 86 college. And I, I went to Vegas and I picked up on a couple trends. I knew the PAC 12 at the time, PAC 10 really well. And I, oh, I always thought that I knew the Pacific Northwest teams better than the sports books because I was from up there. And I did. I remember one year I hit seven of eight bets on Oregon State. I just, I always felt USC was overplayed in Vegas. So I tended to bet against USC and bet for the Northwest schools. I do remember something, and it's very fuzzy because I moved there. Tony Spilotro was there. I once walked into a restaurant on Spring Mountain Road and saw Tony Spilotro and he started eyeing me and I thought, he thinks I'm a news guy. I'm like, I'm a sports guy. I'll give you a pick. Leave me alone. So I wouldn't go to the bathroom. I'm like, there's Tony Spilotro and a table of mob guys. Ned Day was a reporter at Channel 8 doing. And I'm like, I'm not, I'm not going near the bathroom. So. But the point was there was a story and I don't remember. It's very fuzzy, but there was Ivy League football. And the, There was, There was a syndicate or a bunch of sharps on the east coast that were beaten up on sportsbooks. And the only people that met Ivy League football knew Ivy League football. And if I recall, some of the sportsbooks said, we're just not letting you bet it. Do you remember that with Ivy League football?
- [38:07]
A
Yeah, but it wasn't just Ivy League football. It's the smaller conferences in general. And, you know, I finally did a study and was able to approve. I was able to prove what I had theorized for many, many years. In I think it was 2020, I brought in an analytics firm and they analyzed a lot of data and finally documented that we made very, very little money, almost a break even on all the small conferences that we booked. But the major conferences we, you know, we did very, very well. You know, so the more view, the more viewers of any event that, that's the, our bread and butter business, in my opinion. You know, that's where we made our money. If it's, you know, a marquee matchup, you know, Alabama and Auburn or, you know, some USC and ucla, in our case being so close to Southern California, those are the matchups you like as a bookmaker. And I always took much higher limits on the power conferences and the we conferences, very low limits. And the sophisticated betters didn't like that, of course, because that's where they had their best opportunities. And you're right, they knew more than me, certainly more than the industry in general in.
- [39:27]
B
When you get a situation like Ohtani and I defended him, I'm like, listen, folks, he doesn't speak our language, okay? Communication's a problem. Every state has different tax laws. When you're making so much money, not only with the Dodgers and baseball, but overseas on merchandise, if you go to Japan, he's on every billboard. He's bigger than. He's Taylor Swift times 10. And I said, he's got 30 revenue streams coming in. I can see him getting used by an interpreter. When the Ohtani story came down, what was your initial reaction? And do you have any insight into that?
- [40:02]
A
I don't. I did, I did have some experience with the fellow that was, allegedly took, took the wagers and the bookmaker that was involved. He was a, he was a player around Las Vegas and he did raise some red flags as a player because he was a very big player without a known source of income. So he did raise, raise red flags and he was not allowed to frequent certain places around Las Vegas. Yeah, no, that story was just horrendous and so dangerous for Major League Baseball. I do not have any inside knowledge on what happened there. The story, I have some personal thoughts about it, but not something I should say or would, would, would say publicly because I, I don't have any, any, any evidence or knowledge behind the scenes, but other than the fact that, you know, that it, it was very dangerous for the leagues. And, and it comes to the point, you know, my overriding point on, on all of these discussions and, and, and in the book is the, is about the integrity of sports. And you know, who said it best was in 30s or 20s. Meyer Lansky, you know, the mobster and bookmaker and, and illegal casino operator. But he, he's the one that stated many times that our games must be credible and if, and if we lack integrity in our gaming product, we lose everything. And he's exactly right. And, and, and and the leagues have got to wake up to that reality today. And I'm not blaming the league at all for, for the, for the Ohtani situation as far as gambling. Gambling is concerned. But I do fault the leaks for their sudden 180 degree turnaround and embrace of gambling. It's too much, too fast.
- [41:55]
B
Yeah. I mean, I can remember years ago when Tony Romo wanted to go and join some fantasy football business in Vegas. It was small potatoes and the NFL would not allow it. And then three years later, they owned half a fanduel. Right?
- [42:11]
A
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. You know, there was most of my career we weren't allowed to advertise during an NFL broadcast. This, the city of Las Vegas itself could not advertise in the Super Bowl. You know, we were just totally vilified. And you know, now, now all of a sudden they, you know, my, my question to the leagues is, is, were. Were you guys right then or are you right now, or is there a happy medium in there somewhere? And I, and I think that there may be. I hope there is.
- [42:40]
B
Well, I mean, Vegas, by the time I got there, you, you did have Tony Spilotro, you did have mob reporters, but it mostly dried up. You know, Lefty Rosenthal, who, by the way, his car got blown up. There's a Marie Callenders now there, that is where I met my first wife. Kim was at that, at that Marie Callenders where she was a waitress. And before I'd go to work, I'd go get my cornbread and chili every day, Wednesday and Thursday. So, but let's talk about, was there a, you know, Billy Walters and Lem Banker? You know, that's, that's not mobsters, that's sharps. Were there situations early in your career where, you know, when you were at Caesars, there's, there was a mob presence in the desert. Did you ever, did you ever feel threatened? Were there ever moments where it got a little dicey for you?
- [43:35]
A
Yeah, but I was so naive at that time. I didn't, I wasn't as scared as I should have been. I did deal with, when I, when I was at the Stardust, I did deal with Spilacho's runner, you know, who was a regular customer. And he pretty much called his shots. He would dictate the terms of his wagers. In other words, he would tell them to change the price and he'd get his price. And that, you know, that's just not only unusual, it's crazy for a bookmaker to do that. But then when I Went to the Barbary Coast. I was dealing with him there. And he came in. The same fellow came in and bet 16 college basketball games. We were taking a dime, a thousand dollars on college basketball. Most of his bets were small conferences, and he bet 6, 16 college basketball games for 1100 each. Gave me 16, 5, 16,500. And out the door he went. And it wasn't until later in the evening I realized I undercharged him eleven hundred dollars. I was short $1,100, should have been 17,600. And I was freaking out. I was petrified at what was going to happen. That was a big shortage for me, the biggest of my life, as a young ticket writer called Jimmy Vaccaro told him what had happened. He knew I was scared, and he told me, don't worry about it. Turn your drawer in and I'll talk to you tomorrow. And so I did. And then I came to find out later on that Jimmy covered that shortage out of his own pocket the next morning and opened my eyes, and at that point, I knew which side of the counter I wanted to be on and who I wanted to work for and who I wanted to emulate. And that was a very, very valuable lesson for me.
- [45:26]
B
When do you think the Spilotro and those guys. Because when you say they, they change the lines. Basically what you're saying is they went into the Starbucks and they. Starbucks, they went into the Stardust and said, I'm not going to bet it at minus four. It's going to be minus seven. Well, that obviously plus. Yeah, yeah, that's. That's long gone. Instead of plus four, it's plus seven. When was the time that the. That the mob had no control? Did you notice, like, the influence didn't matter? Because they obviously did that at the Stardust for years, but that didn't carry on by the time I got to town. That's not the way it worked. When did that end?
- [46:07]
A
Mid-80s. I was at Caesars the first time in 84 to 86, and one of Spilotro, Spilotro's guys did approach me, and I knew he was a Spilotro guy and. But, you know, I. I just treated him like every other customer. But eventually, you know, he started hanging around, kept trying to talk to me, and eventually said, you know, what can we. We can do some great things together. We can help each other. And, you know, he planted that seed and repeated it a couple days in a row and. And then, you know, I realized what he was doing. I realized that, you know, he Wanted to get into me, cutting into me, and, and I just laughed it off. I, I just brushed it aside, kept doing my job, never answered, never said no, never said anything about it. Just laughed and kept about my business. But I, I should have taken it much more seriously, you know, and had I responded negatively, had I gone to corporate security or, or the police or gaming control board or anybody else, who knows what would have happened? I, I don't know. I, in retrospect, I'm glad I handled it the way, but I really was too naive to know what to do and by accident did the right thing.
- [47:26]
B
Yeah, well, Artman Terrace, it's called the bookie. For me, there were just so many fun stories. I was your typical small town, rural Washington, naive kid, obsessed with my career. And it was people, honestly, you and Chuck Esposito, Roxy Roxborough, who I knew of, didn't get to spend a lot of time with him, but it was people like that that actually kind of taught me a little bit behind the ropes. I've always been indebted, I've always been fascinated, and I'm just so happy for your success. Your family's beautiful, by the way. Absolutely stunning. Wife and kids. And do you ever now, now that you're removed from it, do you ever say, hey, I just want to go bet. I want to go bet a football game. How can you not, right?
- [48:17]
A
No, no, I, I don't, I, I don't. I still am tempted sometimes in boxing because I, and tennis. I've come to really, really like tennis, especially the majors. But no, I, I don't, I, I, I, I never, as an executive in the industry, I never felt comfortable in going to other people's sports books or opening an app elsewhere. And so, no, I'm not tempted to do that. Others around me may answer differently, including family members, but not me.
- [48:49]
B
Art, it's great to see you. Thanks for giving us 45 minutes today. And say hi to sue, and congrats on all your success and your remarkable career.
- [48:58]
A
Thank you, Colin, it was great talking to you. I love watching you all over the years and watching you rise in the industry. Your rise has been phenomenal, but not that surprising. I saw it coming long ago.
- [49:12]
B
All right. Thanks, man.
- [49:14]
A
Thank you.
- [49:18]
B
The volume. Think Verizon is expensive? Think again. Anyone can bring their AT&T or T mobile bill to a Verizon store today, and we'll give you a better deal. So bring us your bill. Walk in, running, pogo sticking, teleport, if you can, ride on the back of a rollerblading yak or flying on the wings of a majestic falcon. Any way you can Bring your AT and T or T mobile bill to a Verizon store today and we'll give you a better deal on the best network based on RootMetric's best overall mobile network performance. US second half 2025 all rights reserved. Must provide a very recent postpaid consumer mobile bill in the name of the person redeeming the deal. Additional terms, conditions and restrictions apply. I'll say it up front. I don't usually endorse supplements. Most promise shortcuts. Anybody who's done real work knows shortcuts fail. But I like EmDrives. Every morning I put that protein powder in my coffee. It's practical. As you get older, energy dips and weight comes easier. That's biology. EmDrive boost and burn support steady energy metabolism and fat burning, so effort actually counts. Clinically tested ingredients. Find that at sprouts, Amazon, or mdrive for men.com mdrive for men who still show up with Cargurus Discover, you can skip the filters and describe what you're.
- [50:25]
A
Looking for in your own words.
- [50:26]
B
Simply type what you want and Cargurus Discover instantly surfaces real listings that match your exact needs. It's no wonder Cargurus is the number one most visited car shopping site, according to SimilarWeb's estimated traffic data. Buy or sell your next car today with CarGurus@CarGurus.com Go to CarGurus.com to make sure your big deal is the best deal. That's C A R G U R U S.comCarGurus.com this is an iHeart podcast.
- [50:54]
A
Guaranteed human.