Unnamed Co-Host (3:29)

All right, welcome to Hoops tonight here at the Volume. Happy Sunday everybody. Hope all of you guys are having a great weekend. Well, Colin Coward was very kind to join us tonight with his time and this time two days ago, we were looking at a what looked like the Indiana Pacers on their way to potentially a sweep to go to the finals. We're talking about trading Carl Anthony Towns. Everyone's blowing a bunch of smoke about the Thunder and how they're the all time great team. And now we're sitting here on Sunday evening and both series are two one and very, very different. Colin, my initial read was just simply that this is more or less where the Eastern Conference finals should be at this point in that I thought the Knicks looked like the better team in game one and they blew it. And I thought the Pacers looked like the better team tonight. I thought they let their foot off the gas in a lot of ways. The Knicks did find some stuff and we'll get into that. But Carl Anthony Town steals this game just like Aaron Neesmith stole game one. And it kind of feels like we're supposed to be 2:1 Indy and here we are 2:1 Indy.

Colin Cowherd (4:26)

Yeah, I mean they're really different teams. At one point the pacers had a 16 nothing fast break points advantage. I mean they, they, you can tell Indiana always wants to push the pace, but tonight it was basically in the half court. Carl Anthony Towns with Jalen Brunson off the floo for most of it. He had one of these Karl Anthony Towns games. And I think I've told you this before, it was a weird thing. I swear to God. I went to about six NBA games. He played in five of them. There was this stretch in La Every time I went to a game, he was playing in all of them. He had a quarter where he was the best player on the floor by a long shot. And he does this. And for a guy his size, his first step for a guy his size, like he is quick and then he gets by you and he's long and he's angular and he's a handful. He's a handful for a big. And I've just seen him do stuff like this before, but I thought with Brunson off the floor, you know, sometimes when you're, when you're a really gifted player and you play with a ball centric, great player. This was Brunson in Dallas. You know, like he would be like it was Lucas show. And then you put him in New York. And this is one of those where in a weird way it was like, like Karl Anthony Tao. The team was just looking for him to lead. And we both know that he can do this. He doesn't sustain it. He gets in foul trouble. He can be inefficient, he's flaky. But. And then I think, to your point, I think they just, they had a series of really. The Pacers had a series of really bad offensive possessions. And you looked up and you're like 9, 7, 4, 2 lead. So this is what happens in the NBA. This isn't college. Like there's just things happen quickly in the NBA and you looked up and you're like, oh, New York has total control emotionally. They just felt like they were going to win the game with about four left. You're like, Indiana can't get out of its own way here offensively.

Unnamed Co-Host (6:28)

Yeah. Even when it was a two or three point game with Indy still in the lead, it kind of just felt like New York was going to win at that point. Basketball is such a confidence and rhythm sport that like when the momentum shifts as dramatically as it does, it can be difficult to reassert control the situation. Very similarly that happened to New York. All of a sudden their offense bogs down. In game one, their offense bogs down. Suddenly Aaron NE Smith's hitting every single three he takes. It just kind of changes the psychology of the game. I thought things really turned around in that late third quarter. It was so funny cast. Stan Van Gundy goes like, I'm not sure I like this lineup. It's a bunch of guys who can't score and they need to score. And then he goes, he's like, who's going to be the guy who brings the offense for the Knicks and it ended up being Deuce McBride and they went on like a 70 run and it cut it down to 10 going into the fourth quarter. And that's what they were talking about. They're like, they just need to get it down to 10. And then as soon as they got into the four in striking distance, Carl, Carl. Anthony Towns gets going. It's the three point shooting. It's the, like you mentioned, the first step. And then once he gets that first step, the bigs all try to catch up to him. But he's just so good at powering through with that battering ram of a left arm as he goes to the rim. And once he got going. This is the most interesting part. You mentioned it, Colin. Indy's offense got shook. This is the first time in a long time I've seen Indy's offense get their foundation shaken the way, the way that the Knicks did. And what it really came down to is that stretch with Brunson out. You know, it's been so fascinating calling because it's different than the Celtics series. In the Celtic series, Cat and Brunson were asked to defend one on one. Very different kind of idea. The Celtics succumbed to their switching and they just tried to attack Brunson and Cat one on one and they did a good job. But in this series, the job for Brunson and Cat is much more sprinting in rotation, getting back in transition defense. It's a lot of like mental focus and energy related stuff. And those guys have been rough in this series in that department. But in that fourth quarter stretch with Brunson off the floor for most of it, it's Deuce McBride out there, a substantially better defensive player. Cat was giving the requisite effort in rotation. And one of the things with this Pacers team, Siakam and Halliburton can play one on one, but that's not necessarily what they do at a superstar level, right? And so if you rotate and you make them take contested shots, they might just go cold and miss them all. And that's what happened in this game. They don't have a Brunson, a guy who's just a indomitable one on one force who can step in and get great shots. And so like that, that really is the key. If there's any hope for New York in this series, and I still feel pretty strongly that Indiana is going to get it done. But like if there's any hope for New York in this series, it's they gotta fight, fly around and rotate and they gotta they gotta match Indiana's speed and pace and energy as much as they can in this series.

Colin Cowherd (9:18)

Yeah, I mean, it's, it's. One of the reasons Indiana plays with pace is because Rick Carlisle knows that's when they're at their best. Because Turner can run. Siakam runs the floor really well. But they got into a. Indiana got into about. And it wasn't like two minutes, it was like six minutes. They got into a six minute stretch where McConnell's getting. He got one short look and then he forced one. And then, you know, again, they, they have like, Neesmith can get hot, but he's not going to beat people off the ball. And you're just watching it and you're like, oh, this is mud. This doesn't work at all. It's. And you know, it's. I think the Pacers are a better team. I, I think there's certain things the Knicks need to do. I think what happened to the Pacers tonight can happen to the Knicks more often where they feel a little stuck if Brunson's not hitting. And if I recall, I think Halliburton was out for a little bit. He was out of it when they got out of rhythm. Then he came back in and he was sort of asked to, hey, kickstart the rhythm. And it's like. And he did hit a three. But it's weird when you, when he is. Whereas Bronson doesn't control the pace, he controls some scoring. Halliburton can control scoring and the pace. So when you take him out and then you insert him back and it's like, okay, now guys, I'm going to change the pace of this. And he tried and he does, but it just didn't. It felt clunky and it felt like they were playing uphill. Yeah, I just. This is a hard series to officiate. Just give me a minute on this. Siokam had a great block on McBride. They called a foul on it. And I'm like, good God, that's ridiculous. The bigs, I mean, Turner and Cat and Siakam, especially Siakam and Cat, they're aggressive offensive players with a nice touch. There was so many calls going against the Knicks in the second half, third quarter, I'm like, oh, this is. This is. They're going to blow a gasket here. And then I thought a couple went against the Pacers late. I think this is a hard series to officiate. New York's a good defensive team. Indiana is an underrated defensive team. And the Bigs move and they collide. And I don't know, I, as I watched this game about, and I'm not a guy that bangs on officials, but I was like, man, there were a lot of calls going against the Knicks for a stretch in this game.

Unnamed Co-Host (11:41)

I thought, no, absolutely. That's why I wasn't upset about the Siakam one. Like Siakam blocked Deuce McBride clean. That was a great defensive play. Should not have been a foul. But there were like three or four calls against, against the Knicks in that fourth quarter where I was like, to the, to the point you're making. What makes this series so hard to officiate is on the one hand you've got Brunson, who's one of the most gifted foul grifters in the NBA. And then on the other side, the Pacers just play so fast and there's so much running that you kind of have to put your body in the way. You have to. If you don't, they're just going to cut you to pieces. And so there's a lot of these like, kind of bang, bang contact plays where a dude comes flying downhill or tries to turn the corner on a drive and you try to position yourself in front and take the contact. And they're getting called for fouls in a lot of those situations. And it is a very difficult series to officiate. But what causes those fouls to your point is the speed and the pace. And if there's one thing to credit the Knicks for in this fourth quarter, like you said, there was a six minute stretch there where you're like, why is Aaron Neesmith trying to play bully ball against Josh Hart and OG Anunoby? Like, OG Anunoby's, you know, four inches taller than you and at least 30 pounds heavier. Like you're not gonna go through his chest to get to the rim. And there was a little bit too much of like Siakam ISO, a little too much of like Tyrese Halliburton dribbling out of ball screens instead of passing out of ball screens like he always does. I thought Indiana kind of lost their identity for a minute in that fourth quarter, by the way. Like, that's a credit to Carl Anthony Towns. I'm a big believer in this, Colin. I'm. I think basketball is more art than science. I think there is a lot of, like, psychological dynamics at play in any given moment. And like when Luka rolls up into your building in the first quarter in an elimination game and scores 17 points and hits three logo threes. It just saps you of all your energy. Like, even I thought Brunson and Cat both kind of were succumbing to that over the course of this game. Brunson was having a rough night, Kat was having a rough night. What happened in that fourth quarter was Cat threw one hell of a punch and he's dunking on everybody and hitting step back threes. And you could tell Indiana was just shaken at that point.

Colin Cowherd (13:52)

Yeah, I mean, there was a point in the first half when Indiana led by 20 and they got into this like six or eight transition run where it was like three fast breaks, bang, bang. And I'm like, oh, the game's over. The series is over. I mean, I, I would have bet my 401k at that moment. I'm like, okay, the series is over. It's done. The body language, Brunson didn't seem engaged. And I'm like, okay, this, it's done. So, I mean, I, you got to give the Knicks credit. I, you know, it's just, it's, I think, to your point, it's probably the series now probably closer to what it should be. So you go back to game one. The Knicks absolutely outplayed them. And going even into this game, I was with friends tonight in the first quarter, a little cookout at their house. We were watching the game and it was like one of the people there was not a basketball fan. And I said, oh, this series will just come down to the last six minutes. I said, one team's great defensively, one's very good offensively. There's about six really good players combined. I said, it'll be close. It'll be a four point game. I thought Indiana would win, but I also think one of the things that was good for the NBA tonight is that you're seeing a lot of road teams win playoff games. There have been a ton. I mean, Indiana, obviously, my entire life. Even as an NBA fan, I always felt like the home team got the whistle. And I just like seeing road teams win. I think it just, I think it's just better for basketball when the road team wins. I mean, I think it's just funny now that the Knicks can't win at home and the Pacers now are winning everywhere but home. And I think it's just good. It makes the series captivating. I'm interested to watch the Pacers come out in game four, because my take is they're going to try to push the pace again because they walked into that locker room and they're like we lost our way at home in a game that could have clinched the series. They just lost their way. Credit the Knicks defense. But it, that was as bad as Indiana's looked offensively for a six to eight minute stretch the entire series.

Unnamed Co-Host (15:59)

Yeah, you know, the most interesting thing looking back at this is the Celtics series looks so weird in retrospect now with the Knicks having won that series and then looking bad for, you know, the majority of this series. Because I'm with you. Like I think Indiana is, I think Indiana is going to come out in game four and throw their best punch and I think it's going to be a very difficult game for the Knicks to win that. Like the, the game I'd point to is the, the Cavs game for Cavs went into Indiana in game three and blew him out. And that's not a, that's not, that's a 64 win. Talent Laden roster that went into Indy and suffered one of the most humiliating blowouts that we've ever seen in the NBA when they were trailing 80 to 39 at the end of the first half. So Indiana is going to come out and they're going to throw their best punch. What's fascinating to me is coming into this series, I mentioned to you on your show that I thought the Pacers on offense and better on defense than the Knicks, and that was why I thought that they would win the series. But interestingly enough, this is a Knicks team that's kind of had mediocre results for the majority of this season and they beat the Celtics. And what's fascinating to me now as I look back on this all is there's kind of a range of outcomes for all of these teams. And the Pacers are a team that pretty consistently hits their ceiling. They're not like what you saw tonight was very out of the, out of character for them. The Knicks, I've seen them a half dozen times each in this postseason look like a putrid defense and look like an awesome defense. Like at multiple different points in this postseason, they've kind of oscillated back and forth between those two ideas. They, they just have a wide range of outcomes. And so we've all known that the Knicks can have defensive stretches like they had in that fourth quarter tonight. They did it to Boston multiple times. They can fly around in rotation and contest shots and do all of that stuff. They just can't sustain it. And so ultimately, as you zoom out from the series, the pacers are up 2:1. And they are more likely to sustain their peak level of play moving forward, and it makes them a safer bet to win the series.

Colin Cowherd (18:01)

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And I think you said it, it's almost collegiate looking the way they play defense and then it's a lot of, you know, drawing fouls. Sje. I don't think they're a fun watch. I just think they're really athletic and really deep. Do I, am I supposed to take anything beyond just a desperate, well coached team in Minnesota? Ant crazy. And it was just a young team, listen, really feeling their oats and just got overwhelmed and just packed it in. I mean it is anything more than that.

Unnamed Co-Host (24:26)

I think there was some more in the sense that I think that Oklahoma City is a better team than Minnesota. But I also don't think they were the type of team that should blow them out multiple times in a row the way they did in game one and game two. Chris Finch was running what I thought was an extremely foolish game plan through the first two games. The gist of it is if I asked you what Shea Gilders Alexander's strongest traits are as a basketball player, you'd say he's probably the best driver of the basketball in the league. And he's just like the best isolation player in the league. He was like of all isolation players who attempted at least 300 shots, he was number one by a mile this year. And so what Chris Finch was doing was picking up Shea at half court and letting him play one on one, staying glued home to shooters. And it was just like gift wrapping Shea the perfect environment for him to thrive on. And it was hilarious. Juxtaposed with a Denver series where we saw the exact opposite game plan with lesser defensive personnel. Have a great Deal of success. Now they won by 40 because yes, there was an urgency gap and they shot a lot better. And there were a lot like Anthony Edwards was hitting shots over triple teams in the second half. Like, yeah, that was what caused it to manifest in a destructive blowout. But right away to start that game, one of the reasons why they were able to quickly assert control and hold Oklahoma City, I think they held him to 15 points in the first quarter. The reason why was they immediately dropped back to Denver's game plan. They had, they had Jaden meet Shea inside the three point line because again, if you ball pressure a player, it's the easiest time to drive past him because you're being forward aggressive as a defender. So of course she's going to go right around. He's literally the best. He drove to the basket more than 200 times more than the second best driver in the league this year. Colin, that's like almost four times a game. He's far and away the best driver. You can't pick him up that far. He's going to go right around you. Jaden sat back and then they started packing the paint off of shooters. And so as a result it looked like the Denver game. And all of a sudden it turned into Oklahoma City's role players needing to knock down threes and Shea having to make tougher decisions in the lane about whether or not he wanted to shoot over some double and triple teams where he can have some shortcomings. Because if I asked you what Shea's biggest weaknesses are, it's probably his three point shooting.

Colin Cowherd (26:48)

Yeah.

Unnamed Co-Host (26:48)

And his ability to process in traffic in the lane. Now he's still pretty good at those things, but they're not his strengths. And in the end of the first half he was 1 for 4 from 3. He had four turnovers. He finished the game, I think 4 for 15 from the field. Colin, only eight times all season did Shea shoot below 40% from the field. He is one of the most consistently efficient scorers in basketball. They held him to 31% in that game. So there definitely was a better game plan. And so as a result, I think game four will be a closer, more tightly contested game because they're running the right game plan for this well.

Colin Cowherd (27:23)

And I think that one of the vulnerabilities of OKC see is young teams, role players are generally not as good on the road in the playoffs. And that's exactly what you saw. Like we've talked about this before, role players at home are just different players. They play, they need that Confidence. They need the swagger of the crowd. Steph Curry doesn't. Ant doesn't. And I think when you force Oklahoma City and you just say, okay, okay, young guys, hit your shots on the road. Loud crowd. It's hard. There's a history. It's like really, really hard. And I also think. And I also think when you're playing a team like okc, so I wonder about. Sometimes OKC is so good defensively and so swarming and so frenetic. I do wonder if Minnesota players tend to spend so much of their on court time thinking about that. So much of playing OKC is deciphering their defense and figuring out. I mean, you have to really be. You have to be intentional when you play them defensively because they can trap you, they can make you look bad fast. And so I think sometimes when you play okc, they don't play like a lot of other teams. Nobody quite plays like them. And I think they can get into your headspace and it's why. And then you go on the road. And now they lead by six and SGA is getting the whistle. I do feel some. And I don't know what the numbers say, but I do feel like OKC is. Is like Indiana. I get the same team. Same team. I got enough veterans. I feel, I feel with Oklahoma City, they're a vulnerable road team. I've got a shot. You know, Denver, they didn't look quite the same at Denver. Now maybe it's altitude. Now, maybe I'm wrong on this. The splits don't say that. But I do feel like a OKC is. Is a vulnerable team on the road that you can win your home games against them.

Unnamed Co-Host (29:17)

They're 3 and 3 Colin. And their defense, their offense falls all the way down to a 104 offensive rating. That's brutally. And their defense slides all the way up to 112, which is pretty bad for them. So, I mean, you're not. What you're onto is. Is what's really been happening with them.

Colin Cowherd (29:33)

Okay. Okay. Yep. They're a different offense on the road. They don't feel like the same team. And that doesn't surprise us because they're young and they play and they play with huge energy at home. But when I watch them on the road at Denver a couple times, I'm like, it just doesn't feel the same. It's a different. I honestly feel of all the teams left, I get the exact same team with minute with Indiana, except for six minutes tonight, I feel like I get the Exact same Pacer squad homing away. They want to run. If they can't, you know, it just, I just. Okay. See, of all the four teams left, I feel like I get a different OKC team home and away.

Unnamed Co-Host (30:11)

To your point about adjusting to OKC's defense too, like, I thought Ant and Julius did a poor job in the first two games of attacking their defense like Colin, like, because Oklahoma City's defense, I don't know if you like, just, just stare at any possession. Shay's ignoring whoever he's guarding, just sitting in the basket. They've got three, four, sometimes five guys in the paint on like every single drive. They're daring Minnesota to take and make corner threes in this series. And in the like, when, after game one, when Ant was like, I vowed to be more aggressive, I'm like, that's not the answer. They're. They're like, you, you, you're gonna just drive into the teeth of the defense and you're gonna take bad shots. And by the way, in the first half of game two, he took 18 shots and had 16 points to show for it. What was kind of fascinating about the flow of this series is to your point, you start to get more comfortable as you adjust. Ant and Julius were awesome in Game 3, especially early at making those corner kicks and they were finally knocking down those corner threes. They have had three games worth of experience against Oklahoma City's base defensive scheme and they're starting to figure it out a little bit. Oklahoma City saw that bad game plan for two games and then Finch throws the appropriate game plan in game three and they looked like completely shell shocked by it. I mean, Colin, I don't know if you saw in game one, Oklahoma City only took like 20 threes and the reason why is because they were staying glued off the ball and letting Shea play one on one. It's a, it's such a fundamentally different defensive game plan that Minnesota is rocking from this point forward. Now, to be clear, in game four, by the way, via DraftKings, all of our odds are from DraftKings. Oklahoma City is a three point favorite in game four. That feels right to me. I think it's going to be a close game. They're going to bring a intense defensive effort right away out the gates. That's going to test Aunt and Julius's decision making again. And then you're going to see Oklahoma City because they have seen this defense before with Denver. You're going to see them kind of come into the game prepared for that game plan. That said, and this is the one thing I'd say, like, I think Minnesota has a much better chance of beating Oklahoma City from this point forward than the Knicks do with the Pacers. Because what Minnesota can bring to the table is Denver caused problems for OKC with some weak defensive personnel. Minnesota's got a bunch of really good defenders out there, and so if they properly execute this game plan, they could potentially do some real damage. And, and as, as long as they ride that momentum going forward in the series. There's also a little bit of like a ant straight up can be unguardable sometimes with some of the shots that he can make. And like he was just better than Shea in game three. And if he can maintain that, that would be the other thing that could swing things back towards Minnesota.

Colin Cowherd (32:52)

You know, it was funny segue back to the Knicks Pacers. And I was, I was watching the Pacers when they took that 20 point first half lead and they were just transition basketball at its best. Just, I mean, they score fast. And I was thinking, don't fall for it, Colin, don't fall for it. Because a couple years ago Denver won the title and I'm like, oh, they're going to reel off like three. And then Bruce Brown left and then kcp and they didn't, I mean, they didn't have a great bench to begin with and now it's a bad bench and they become, you know, Jamal Murray gets hurt and I've never been a huge Michael Porter fan. I've always been. I always think Aaron Gordon's underrated. Porter, to me, just, I think he's an odd fit and a bit overpaid. And then all of a sudden you look up and Denver just looks good. And I watched Indiana, I said, and I thought to myself, God, I love watching them play. But as I watch all of these teams, even Oklahoma City, and we've just stated it, they're the one team that you get a different version on the road. They're not nearly as good as they are at home, is that I feel like whoever wins this year will not win the following year. First of all, there's going to be a Giannis move. KD could go to the Knicks, they could get another basket, you know, if they moved off Carl, Anthony Towns and his flakiness and just said, we're going to go get Durant, we'll let Carl go, we'll keep Robinson, he is what he is, but we'll have Durant in the game late so we can live with him. I feel like The Pacers feel a little bit like the Nuggets. I'm falling in love. Like, I fell in love with Jokic and Gordon. I'm like, God, I love team. But it wasn't as sustainable. It was very Jokic dominant. And Murray, you know, just. He's just one of those players that I like a lot, I don't love. And I kind of feel like with Indiana, I'm falling for it because I'm. And I'm doing this because I'm. It's like confirmation bias. I love watching them play, and so I'm talking myself into Indiana is great. But then I watch them and I think to myself, no, they're not great. What they have is a remarkable player in Halliburton, and what Denver had is a remarkable player in Jokic. And what Minnesota has is a remarkable player, an ant. And Brunson's one of the great small closers in the game is. I think this is what the NBA is going to be, is that everybody's going to have a great player and a very good two. But the days of having three guys that you can depend on, I just think, Jason, I think it's over. I just don't think that. Multiple aprons. I don't think they allow it. And so those teams are just going to eventually get beat. They'll come in as a favorite, they'll have an injury, they'll lose a bench guy. And it's just funny, watching Indiana tonight, I'm like, oh, boy, this team. This team. I thought, wait, put the brakes on. Jesus, they can't even get to the Knicks tonight. If I took these four teams, all things considered, and I said, one of them will win multiple titles. Are you set on okc?

Unnamed Co-Host (35:58)

Yeah. OKC is the only team that could theoretically keep this kind of talent accumulated for long enough. Like, Indiana's already going to face some tough questions coming up. Like, okay, Miles Turner is kind of very important to the way we play offense. Are we going to pay? Because Miles, guess what, Colin, starting center money in the NBA now is like 30 million a year. Like, that's like the baseline. Like, we're. We're starting the discussion at 30 million a year. That's what Isaiah Hartenstein got. And if I'm Miles Harton, Miles Turner's agent, I'm going to him like, 30 is the basement. Like, so are you gonna. You. How are you gonna continue to build around. Nice Smith, who, by the, by the way, Neesmith, is a. A dude who just stole you a playoff game. Who's averaging 15 points a game in this playoff run is your primary point of attack, defender and shooting 45% from three, that's a $25 million player. Like Halliburton's a supermax player. Nemhard, you could argue is a 20 million dollar player. Siakam is a $40 million player. Like, it just gets really difficult to maintain the payrolls in these, in these situations. The thing with Oklahoma City is they're going to run into that problem in a couple of years. They can theoretically win this year, run it back, win again, run it back. But it will be a shorter window relative to previous entities like this because of the fact that eventually they're going to have to pay. J Dub Kayson. Wallace is looking a lot like a $25 million player to me, right? Like, like Chad Holmgren's a $40 million player. J Dub's going to be a $40 million. Like, they're all just so good that inevitably you're gonna have to pay all these dudes and it's just gonna become impossible to maintain the roster. Now there's a second conversation to have as it pertains to whether or not the league should pivot from this structure because it penalizes smartly run NBA teams. But yeah, on the other three teams, Indiana, New York, Minnesota, there's no chance to like sustain success because of just how expensive it is to have. Like, you talk about a playoff rotation, you want six guys you can definitely trust and probably a seventh that you can kind of trust. And it's like a playoff guy you can trust is bare minimum 20 million in the open market. So like, it's just very difficult to find the means with which to maintain this. And Oklahoma City will have draft picks. They can supplement it with draft picks, but a draft pick isn't going to be able to impact winning at a playoff level right away. And you could try trading them, but it's just going to bring back expensive contracts. It's just kind of the reality of the situation, I will say, with the Knicks, Colin. I, I think there's a lot of interesting Kevin Durant potential destinations. I think the Knicks are one. I also kind of think the Pacers are one. One of the reasons why I like the Pacers is like, I don't think the Pacers have much of a chance at all to beat Oklahoma City. I think it's a horrible matchup for them. Oklahoma City has six lightning fast guards that can chase all their guards around and they can switch everything and they also have rim protection and they have all the offensive talent to be able to score on them. I worry about the Pacer's ability to get a bucket against a team that can keep them in front. And they're a team. Like if I had, if I just had a better version of Siakam, I all of a sudden view them as a more substantial title threat. And so like, they're a team that I could see like, like, okay, we're a little older. Miles Turner's kind of older. We need to make some sort of win now, move to capitalize on this before it gets too expensive. I could see KD being that guy for them as well. There's a bunch of teams where KD could immediately raise their ceiling.

Colin Cowherd (39:23)

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So while you can't get fun in the sun delivered, don't worry because you can get pork buns delivered. Uber Eats can definitely get you that. Get almost almost anything delivered with Uber Eats. Order now. Alcohol and select markets. Product availability may vary by region. See app for details. You know, there are moments in life where you get to make a real difference, and this is one of them I want to tell you about. Folds of Honor. They provide educational scholarships to the spouses and children of fallen or disabled military members and first responders. Think about that for a second. Families who've lost everything or are rebuilding their lives. And this organization steps in to make sure their kids can still go to college or a spouse can get the training they need to keep moving forward. Since 2007, they've awarded nearly 62,000 scholarships. Last year, about 7,000 qualified students didn't receive funding. And this year that number is expected to grow to nearly 10,000. So if you've been looking for a way to give back, to do something really meaningful, this is it. Go to foldsofhonor.org give what you can. It all matters. Honor their sacrifice by educating their legacy. And now for our next segment, whiskey business. Yes, whiskey business. Brought to you by Green River Whiskey, the official whiskey of the Colin Coward podcast. Okay, I want to, I want to bring this up. We can close on this because I saw this today. It's fascinating. So a university professor in finance looked up the value of Caitlin Clark for the wnba. This is insane. So this year, last season in the WNBA, Caitlin Clark was 26.5% of all economic activity as a rookie on the worst team in the league when she entered it. So now she has an 8 year, $128 million deal with Nike. So you know she's going to eat merchandise in the league went up off a rookie from a Midwest based school on the worst team in the league, 234%. But here was the one that struck me. So before she got there, the Indiana Fever, the valuation of the franchise was 90 million. Remember, they play a short season. It's not like the NBA where It lasts like six months after playing what, 40 games. The valuation of that team now is $340 million. She is almost, that's what NBA teams.

Unnamed Co-Host (45:38)

Were selling for 10 years ago. Colin, she has 12, 15 years ago.

Colin Cowherd (45:43)

The value. I was talking, I was with a group of friends tonight at dinner and people that didn't know the WNBA were like asking, well, why? What does she do? And we said, well, she makes passes and takes shots that nobody else in the sport does. So she's a bit of a, it's like when Tiger woods came on the tour. Like he drove it further. His long putting was better. He looked like a football player in the red shirts. Like he just was different than every other golfer you grew up with. And people like unique and different here. My question to you is, there's still no other. Like somebody said at the party, will there be another Caitlin Clark? And I'm like, well, there's not another Steph Curry. Like there's guys that can shoot threes. I don't think it's a game you duplicate. And let's just be honest, there are more great male athletes in the world than female athletes. There is no second Steph Curry. There is no other player that plays like that. My take is she could be a billion dollar athlete. Are you surprised by it? Like when I see these numbers, I'm like, like, oh, this is Tiger in the tour. This doesn't, this isn't even Jordan. This is totally different.

Unnamed Co-Host (47:01)

Well, I think when you look at basketball, there are two real kind of like ultimate show type of athletes that you see meaning like must see television. And it's the supreme vertical athlete which think like young LeBron or kind of like Anthony Edwards now Dominique was for a while. Yeah, like the guy that does stuff in the air that is unlike anything you see anywhere.

Colin Cowherd (47:26)

Dr. J. Yeah.

Unnamed Co-Host (47:28)

And then the second piece of it is just unbelievable shot making. Those are the two things. Those are the two things that like really bring eyes to television. To take it a step further, there are two types of basketball players that I think are far and away the most winning impact in the current game of basketball. It's the big strong playmaker. Think LeBron, Luka Jokic. And it's the indomitable shooter, which there's really only been Steph. I think those two types of players are the players that give you the best chances to win basketball games in the modern, in the modern world. Now what makes it fascinating to me, because that's what Caitlin Clark is, she's a different type of player and she can do a lot of different types of things, but she's essentially bringing a Steph Curry like basketball impact to the wnba. It's really this simple. If you can shoot the way that she shoots or the way Steph shoots and you can perpetually be in motion running around, inevitably there is an overreaction to your shooting ability. And we see this all the time with Caitlin. Just like you're going to see, you're going to see Aaliyah Boston get nonstop, easy buckets in the mid range or rolling to the basketball. It because every time she sets a screen for Caitlyn, her defender is stepping up to guard Caitlyn because as she comes off of that screen, if you're not there, she's going to shoot it and she's going to make it. And so there's a reaction that invert spacing and brings a four on three because you Bring multiple defenders away from the rim. There's a four on three with a vacated paint and because of that, there's a lot of easy opportunities to score there. Like, that's the thing with Steph Curry. Like, Steph Curry is not the same shot maker that he was four years ago in 2021, but just the simple threat of him running around gives the Warriors a chance to score. And that's the thing. Like, Caitlin hasn't even really started hitting shots yet this year the way that she's capable of, but everyone knows she can and they guard her in that fashion. And so to me, it's kind of like a proof of concept in that if you can shoot and you can run around the way that Steph does and you can strike fear into a defense in that way, the trickle down effects with the way that defenses guard you just make everything so much easier for her. And like, you could argue she's already the best offensive engine in the WNBA and she's literally a second year player. And like, and she still has so much room to improve. Like, she still struggles with ball pressure. She still turns the, she turned the ball over too much against the Liberty the other night. She still has a little bit of an issue where she kind of crossfires across her face, which makes it so she can only shoot going left, left. She needs to build it out so that she can shoot running to her right as well. But like, judging by her psycho competitive attitude, she's probably going to figure that stuff out in the next year or two and then she'll be the best player in the league. And so like, to me, it's just, she fits the mold of one of the most impactful types of basketball players you can be today, which is the, the deadly movement shooter. If you're a deadly movement shooter, it just opens up so many things for an offense in. And honestly, I just think, I think she's. Must see television. Colin. I've watched all four of her games and I'm in my busy season. Like, you think I'd be taking a break. My wife said to me the other day, she's like, you're watching more basketball. I'm like, it's Caitlin Clark. We're watching more basketball. Come over here, let's watch this. Like, she's incredible.

Colin Cowherd (50:49)

And she's not getting, she doesn't always get the consistent, great star whistle. She, I mean there, there's, I think they're still kind of figuring out how to officiate her. Right? Like, like when you're, when you know, I've said this for years. When I covered and went to Shaq, Shaq got fouled more than anybody I've ever seen. I mean, it was insane. You just. People bounced off Shaq. Jokic feel. Jokic complains constantly, like, people are bouncing off me. She doesn't quite get as favorable a whistle as you think. So I think neither does Steph, too.

Unnamed Co-Host (51:22)

That's the funny part.

Colin Cowherd (51:24)

Well, and I think I will give the WNBA credit. They just didn't understand the tsunami of her popularity. Like, they didn't get the schedule. And you don't know what you don't know. They've done a much better job to. I mean, all her games are on television. Every time I turn on a W, every time I see a promote. Promotion for the wnba, it's Caitlin Clark. So they're. They're. But I do think there's a process on. You know, you're an official. You don't want to give her too favorable a whistle because the players in the league all resent her to some degree. She's getting all this attention. And I don't. And I will say this. I've defended the wfi, NBA with this. Baseball and the WNBA feel ignored. The NFL and the NBA and college football, they get a lot of press, and baseball always feels like, hey, we're America's pastime. So they're very insular, sometimes very provincial. And the WNBA is similarly. You don't pay attention to us. So there's part of it, like, I get like, they sort of resent this one player. Nobody talks wnba. They do, and it's all her. You know, I remember when Tiger was 18, 19, 20 years old coming onto the tour, there were a lot of people in golf that were like, could you guys show. Could you talk on your sportscast about anybody other than Tiger Woods? So she's not. Bryce Harper came into baseball. He fought with an own teammate in the dugout because it was like, oh, everybody wants to talk to. So I do defend the WNBA is that I get. If nobody paid attention to you for 26 years, and now they do, and they feign interest in the rest of the league. What we all care about is Caitlin. So the animosity built up by players, I give it a little bit of a pass. You know, I think people are spending too much time on race. It is what it is. There's a million platforms, a million opinions, but I don't know. My take is they're still in the adjustment period with Caitlin, how to market, how to Promote how to officiate, how to defend. And it's just fluid. That's what it feels like to me.

Unnamed Co-Host (53:28)

I think that, like, when I see the complaining, like I saw some players complain and some, some members of the media complain that she was on TV so much. And let's just take aside, take fairness and just put it to the side for a minute. Like, even with Nike and giving Caitlin a shoot, like, set that aside for a minute and just focus on her being on television. Okay. Her being on television brought my eyes to it. I didn't watch the wnba. I have grown to really enjoy watching WNBA basketball even when she's not on. And they're like, nafisa Collier became one of my favorite basketball players, watching her in the finals run last year. And what brought me to the television was Caitlin. So, like, let's say that the league came out. They're like every Caitlin Clark games on national television. Like, that's just what we're going to do. Deal with it. It. That would be genius. Because the best way you can market the other WNBA players is to have them play against Caitlin Clark. Because we'll all be watching. Okay, well, no one's covering the rest of the league. Okay. But if you put Caitlyn on television and you get more people to watch, it will create more WNBA fans and we live in the most. Colin, I started making NBA content out of my guest bedroom. Okay. You create a bunch of WNBA fans, passionate members of the media will originate from that mass and will cover the league better. And overall, the league will gain in popularity and gain an impact, and it will become a momentous thing that carries forward and actually does shine a big flashlight on the rest of the wnba. Caitlin Clark is the vehicle with which to microwave that, to accelerate it and to move it into a fast track towards what could be a bright future for the wnba. It's great basketball. It's genuinely great basketball. She's the best vehicle with which to elevate the sport. I think anything they can do to put her on TV and promote her is the best thing they could do for the sport.

Colin Cowherd (55:21)

Yeah, it's Conor McGregor. UFC. You know, you knew it existed. You'd seen fights, you started buying pay per view cards and sitting through two and a half hours to get to his fight. And then all of a sudden, you found yourself a year later hooked on two other fighters. Because Dana White would put the second most popular fighter in the undercards.

Unnamed Co-Host (55:40)

Exactly.

Colin Cowherd (55:40)

So all of a sudden it's Jon Jones into Conor McGregor and then they so it's just basic marketing. And I've said before, I do think the WNBA, women's basketball, and I said this years ago on FS1, probably five years ago, the sport was getting better. The women were. Several generations of women were encouraged to play basketball and to be athletes and nutritionists came into the sport and better trainers. There was money in the league, so they had better training and the players were getting better. But it takes this. Listen, it took Magic and Bird in the NBA to take a league. There were some financial problems. So it's not like a gender issue. It's a. I mean, I think Conor McGregor's erosion as a fighter has hurt UFC. It doesn't feel as urgent. And that's already established. And we all know that Michael Jordan left once Magic, Bird and Michael had driven the league up. Michael left, the ratings dropped 50%. So. So this stuff outside of the NFL, it's all cyclical, it's all market based, it's all star based. And it's just. The WNBA was waiting for its first Tiger, and golf's probably had four in my life. Jack Nicholson, Arnold Palmer, Tiger. I think Rory's got a little bit of it. Phil Mickelson. So the history of golf, if you modern history, has got five guys that have done it. So there's no reason to be defensive about it. It just, it's all these leagues, they all eventually, I mean, look at boxing. Ali took it from whatever it was to the next level. Then there were Sugar Ray Leonard and Hagler. But when Larry Holmes arrived, nobody wanted to watch Larry Holmes. It took an old George Foreman. And selling a grill that you bake chicken on or cook chicken on. I mean, literally to get. Get the casual back into. Boxing was George Foreman's second tour. So this is the way sports works outside of football.

Unnamed Co-Host (57:44)

The cyclical thing is so fascinating because that's literally what the NBA is about to go through. LeBron and Steph won eight titles in 11 years. And now there's not really a big name yet. Now, you could argue that the parody might prevent the rise of a star. And that's a separate conversation for another day, but it is really fascinating. We're in one of those cycles right now at the NBA. The old guards going out, out. There's a new card coming up.

Colin Cowherd (58:04)

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Unnamed Co-Host (58:22)

But Colin, I sincerely appreciate you giving us your time tonight. This has been a super fun playoff run. I'm sure we'll be talking in about a week or so. Again, everyone, thank you guys so much for supporting the show. No playback tonight. Just a heads up. We'll be back with that tomorrow night. And then I'll be live on YouTube after the final buzzer of game four of what should be an incredible Western Conference finals game tomorrow night. I will see you guys then.

Colin Cowherd (58:45)

The Volume. You're listening to an I Heart podcast.