← The Herd with Colin Cowherd
The Herd with Colin Cowherd
Colin Cowherd Podcast - Lakers Primed For Playoffs, Jokic The Best “Big” Ever? Warriors/Rockets Will Be A Battle, OKC Primed To Be Upset?
00:44:33
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- [00:00]
T Mobile
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- [00:30]
Jeremy Hobson
We live in a divided country, and our media couldn't be more polarizing. That's why we started the Middle with Jeremy Hobson. It's about bringing voices not from the extremes, but from the vast middle into the national conversation. Each week we hear from ordinary Americans from all over the country. And when you subscribe to the Middle, you also get an episode each week called One Thing Trump did that focuses on just one item from the avalanche of news. Listen to the Middle with Jeremy Hobson on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcast.
- [00:59]
Greg Rosenthal
Podcasts what's up everyone? It's Greg Rosenthal, and I'm teaming up with the King of Spring, Daniel Jeremiah. He requires me to say that we're going to be bringing you 40s and free agents, the only podcast you'll need this NFL draft season. From DJs mock drafts to my top 101 free agents will have it covered for you with all new episodes every Thursday keeping you up to date as we head to the NFL Draft. Listen to 40s and free agents on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast.
- [01:31]
Jason Timpf
The Volume all right, here we go. Jason Timf Hoops Tonight we got a lot to talk about as the NBA playoff start. All the odds provided by DraftKings Sportsbook, by the way, when we mentioned them. So I I'm going to pick an upset. I'm going to go Houston Rockets over the warriors. And I don't want to do confirmation bias or recency bias because I watch them struggle against Memphis and need an inbounds gaffe by the Grizzlies to save it. But the Jonathan Kaminga piece is really a problem. So we've talked about this. It's a highly sophisticated offense. Veterans work. Iguodala kd, Andrew Bogut. They work. Steph Clay Draymond. They work. You can be a quirky player like Draymond Green and still be a catalyst. What doesn't work is Wiseman, Jordan Poole, D'Angelo Russell who's a bit squirrely when he was younger and Kaminga's productive. But you can't put them on the floor with this unit. Kerr is it's do not play coach's decision and they are dying for length. I mean I watched it last night. Zach Edie is a huge problem. They don't have any length and here comes Houston. They defend the three mon Thompson gave Steph Fitz last time they played length. Now Kerr's the best coach, Curry's the best player. I am not denying that but. And if the games are close Jason, you'll take the Warriors. Their clutch points are great. They're going to win these one point games like last night's. Just a great example of how the warriors can manipulate the clock possessions and get better defensively when they have to. I don't like this matchup. I was looking at the odds. I don't like this matchup for the Warriors. Right now The Rockets are plus 165 again odds provided by DraftKings. I'm calling the upset. You think I'm crazy? Size, Lack of depth, Curry dependent? What say you?
- [03:39]
Unnamed Analyst
I don't want to say you're crazy. I think this is, let's just put it this way. I think that a defensive minded Rockets team is more capable of beating Golden State than say a defensive minded Magic team is capable of beating Boston. That said, I think that the other side of the floor is where it's going to become a problem. I have no doubts that Houston is going to cause problems for Golden State's offense. In their last four games they've held them to 105 or fewer and all four of them they've held them below 103 times. They, they have a bunch of different things that they do that bother them. They put Alper and Shangoon on Moses Moody which is really smart because it allows them to put all of their three best perimeter defenders on Draymond, Jimmy and Steph and just switch. Any action involves those three. Amen. Thompson is one of the most gifted athletes in terms of foot speed in the league.
- [04:29]
Jason Timpf
He may be the best athlete in the series.
- [04:31]
Unnamed Analyst
Yeah, absolutely. And the the Rockets have a zone look that worked really well against the against the Warriors a couple weeks ago there. I have no doubts that the Rockets will be able to drag the warriors offense down into the mud. Here's the problem. I think the war. I think the warriors defense is nearly as good as Houston's defense. And I think that they are more capable of doing more damage to a Shangoon, Jalen Green, Fred Van Vliet led offense than the Rockets can do to the warriors on the other end of the floor. I would not be surprised if it's a longer series. As a Lakers fan, I hope that it's very physical and that it wears them down, but I just have a really hard time believing that the Rockets are going to be able to score enough now to beat the warriors four times now.
- [05:17]
Jason Timpf
They have shot better in the second half of the season.
- [05:20]
Unnamed Analyst
They have.
- [05:20]
Jason Timpf
They have. So there is. Here's the thing. Explain the Kaminga piece. So listen, I was told this years ago by an NFL executive. He says, Be very careful about the last 20 games of the season. You're going to see teams with winning streaks, half the league's tanking, and half the league is resting starters for the playoffs. So the Clippers go on this great last 15 games, and the warriors have that energy when Jimmy Butler arrives and they're playing bad teams and they're just rolling people and you're like, oh, my God. And I fell for it. And I said, oh, wait till Kaminga comes back. It was about three games with Kaminga in this group, and Steve Kerr's like, yeah, I'm not. I didn't. Why doesn't it work with him? Because he. I could argue he's exactly what they need against Houston. Size, athletic ability, length. They look small. Last night against Memphis.
- [06:11]
Unnamed Analyst
Yeah. You know, right when the Jimmy trade went down, my. One of my initial takeaways was this is the end of Jonathan Kaminga in his time with the Golden State warriors in terms of just him being a meaningful construction contributor to this team. The thing is, is they were banking on Jonathan Kaminga becoming that player for the Warrior, becoming the Jimmy Butler type of player for the Warriors. The big forward that they could put next to Draymond. That would be the scoring pop alongside the starters. As soon as they got Jimmy, they no longer had a role for him anymore. You want to know why Kerr went with GI Santos last night? It's because Guy Santos plays the same position. But he can count on Guy to not do anything stupid, to just play super hard, to grab every rebound he can get, to take a wide open catch and shoot three. Jonathan Kaminga's upside is on the ball. If you clear the side for him and you let him go one on one facing up 18ft from the basket, he has a lot of potential in the long term to be Very good at that. But he's not good enough at it now to take reps away from Steph and away from Jimmy. And so all they need from him is to play defense, to knock down wide open catch and shoot threes, and to play in their read and react in the half court. And he's not very good at any of those three things. And so it just is kind of like a death sentence in that regard for his role here. And I do think that it's probably in the best interest of everybody involved after the season is over to look to move on from Kaminga. That said, you made a very interesting point specifically about this matchup. I understood the case for the DNPS with Kaminga for the last couple games. Super important games. You need higher floor, lower ceiling. Like you need fewer mistakes.
- [07:48]
Jason Timpf
Yes.
- [07:49]
Unnamed Analyst
You couldn't take a risk with mistakes in those games. So I understood that case specifically for this matchup with Houston. They are so big and so athletic that I think it could. I think it could be a Jimmy Butler and Jonathan Kaminga type of series. I think the two of them and their athletic advantages could be something they have to lean on a lot, especially if the perimeter defense of Houston wears Steph down over the course of the series. So if I was Kerr, I would definitely give Kaminga some burn here in the first couple games of this series just to see what he's got. Now, if he's terrible, bail on him. Go back to your rotation that you used in the last couple of games. But I think he's an asset as an athlete that you can't afford to keep in your back pocket for a series like this.
- [08:32]
Jason Timpf
And the Rockets are first of all. They defend the three. They got the best athlete in the series and they rebound really well. They're going to get. If Kaminga doesn't play a lot, they're going to get second. They're going to get a lot of offensive rebound. They're going to win offensive rebounding throughout this series. Looney is going to play a lot. You're going to have to play him. If you don't play Kaminga a lot, you're giving up. You're going to give up the glass and you can win a series losing on the, you know, and in the world we play in now, you know, Boston can lose the rebounding battle and hit 28 threes and they win the game by 15. But I'll tell you, I think Houston, I think. I think Houston's really going to challenge him, and I think they're going to be low scoring. I think the one advantage that is clear cut and you saw it last night with the warriors. They're so good with 2:20 to play in a tie game. They are, they just know, I mean it's almost like, I mean you know, people grabbing and clutching staff and you have to be more careful late because they may call a foul and it's just, they just figure out ways to get Steph really good looks. It's almost like red zone offense in the NFL where it's cluttered and jammed and yet the good teams find open people. I mean he just, I watched them and I like last night they had a great game plan jump out to a 16 point lead, 18 point lead, 20 point lead. But in the end you're like they just don't have bodies. They look incredibly small and I just think that size is going to make. I think they're the close games. Golden State wins. But I'm going to give Houston a couple of games where they just dominate the glass. The warriors look tired and they blow them out. It'll be a weird looking series.
- [10:14]
Unnamed Analyst
Yeah, I said something similar in my series preview. Like I wouldn't be surprised if there was a game either early in the series like a game one or like a game five with the warriors are up three one where the Rockets just beat the heck out of them and win by like 25, 30 points. They get going in transition. They look super athletic. I'm with you overall with the warriors in the sense that like there was this stretch post deadline where they were beating everybody and yeah, the schedule was weak, but then they got a couple of impressive wins. You beat a decent Memphis team. You beat a Nuggets team without Jamal Murray. You beat that Lakers team. That was one of the biggest wins that they had all season. That was a big nationally televised, super important game for both teams that they won. But then after that it's like they lose to Houston, they lose to San Antonio, they look, they beat Portland, but then they lose to the Clippers at home in a must win game. And then last night for stretches they looked unimpressive as they were trailing in the fourth quarter. So I'm kind of up in the air with the warriors in general now because it's hard to tell how good they really are when they killed everybody for like two months. And then for the last two weeks they've looked pretty unimpressive. So I'm kind of up in the air with them. The main reason why I've been dropping them down Is in terms of where I'd rank them among contenders is I don't trust their shooting. Their shooting can go ice cold around Steph Curry. And then as you mentioned, they're a little bit vulnerable to size and physicality, which I think can cause some problems for them. I view them as a little bit more of a flawed contender now than I did two weeks ago.
- [11:40]
Jason Timpf
All right, Lakers. All odds provided by DraftKings are -1.95 against the T Wolves. I think this is a very favorable Laker matchup and I think it's pretty obvious the Timberwolves outside of Ant Edwards, he's to have to score 40 in a couple of these games. Julius Randall has historically kind of the classic, plays hard, plays with energy, very successful in the regular season, but everybody in the postseason plays with energy. And he. And he comes right back. He regressed. The regression's clear. He's a B player who plays with a energy and that is really valuable in the regular season. And then you get to the postseason and everybody's got equal time off and he's a B player and doesn't create. Sometimes can get a little ball. Selfish. Go Bear is not an offensive player. Mike Conley's a play initiator, but doesn't provide much offense. And the Lakers are the rare team. I mean, Boston may be the only team in the league that does this, that has three playmakers and three play initiators and at any one time can have the three best offensive players playing well on the floor. I don't think it's a good matchup for Minnesota at all. This was the bad draw, in my opinion, for the T Wolves. What do you think?
- [12:49]
Unnamed Analyst
I totally agree. I think there's a basic talent argument you can make for la, which is like who's better or Luca. You're taking Luca. Who's better, LeBron or Julius Randall? Yeah, you're taking LeBron. Who. Who's better? Austin Reeves or a Jaden McDaniels or a Rudy Gobert or Dante DiVincenzo? You're taking Austin Reeves. So I think. I think the Lakers top three guys are just better. And I think that, that, that could be enough to make the case. Where I think it gets really interesting is the Timberwolves greatest strength on defense is their combination of perimeter defenders and Rudy Gobert at the rim. And the Lakers can neutralize that. Unfortunately, as we saw in the Western Conference finals last year, the best perimeter defender on Minnesota, Jaden McDaniels, can't guard Luca. He's too skinny. Luca can just throw him around like a rag doll. None of the perimeter defenders on Minnesota make Luca uncomfortable. And the Lakers with their five out groups with Dorian, Finney, Smith instead of Jackson Hayes, they can space Rudy to where he cannot protect the rim without conceding a wide open three. When Rudy's on the perimeter, he's still a good defender, but he's not the transcendently impactful defender he is when he can sit right underneath the basket. So I think they neutralize him there on the other end of the floor. The Lakers have struggled against spread out shooting like against Boston and really smart teams with speed like Golden State. Those are the teams that have really caused the Lakers issues. Post Luca trade. You know who the Lakers have not struggled with post Luca trade. Defensively, the team that they can load up on, you can load up on the Timberwolves. They are not a good spot up team. They are a team that you can put two on the ball with ant and not get burned.
- [14:28]
Jason Timpf
That's right.
- [14:29]
Unnamed Analyst
High level playmaking. It's just I look at this as a series where just all of the strengths and weaknesses line up in a way to where I think the Lakers just have a big advantage. This was one of the few series that I picked in five games. I think the Lakers are going to beat him in five.
- [14:42]
Jason Timpf
Yeah, I feel the same way. And the Lakers, I could be wrong on this. I think they play as good a defense as they need to. I think that when I watch them play there are times I'm like, oh, this is one of those games they really care about. And then there are other times I'm like, they're just not talking. This is one of those. They either all went out and had a nice dinner last night and Bombardo, they're just not that. When I watch them, I think they're as good as they want to be. Defensively, I don't think they're great but like Denver's got limitations. There's just things, I mean Jokic, there's just limitations. I think the Lakers actually have some pretty good length and defensive personnel outside of Luca. I think they'll, they'll play good defense in the D in the playoffs because they'll want to. They're a want team when they want to. I think they're pretty capable.
- [15:30]
Unnamed Analyst
Yeah. And when you're as good offensively as they've been with their best groups. And by the way, that group with Dorian, Finney, Smith and Rui next to LeBron, Luka and Austin has been torching everybody for a long time now that unit can really score the ball so they have some margin for error on that side of the floor. It really is about LeBron. LeBron as like the Orchestrator on the back line. He plays that Draymond Green esque role just telling everybody where to go, calling out the plays as they're starting to take shape. And then Jared Vanderbilt, Rui Hachimura, Dorian Finney Smith. It's just a lot of six, nine rangy athletes that can cover ground. I'm not gonna lie Colin. Like the the Lakers certainly have an uphill climb and there are going to be multiple series where there'll be an underdog if they get to the third and fourth round. But this could not have broken better for them than it did now. You only have to play one of Denver OKC and the Clippers. Those are three of the most dangerous teams in the West. They only have to play one of them. So I think it actually broke really nicely for them here. If they can take care of business against the Timberwolves and beat whoever comes out of that Warriors Rocket series, they're right there in the in the against OKC in the conference finals. I think they've got a really good chance.
- [16:38]
Jason Timpf
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- [18:12]
T Mobile
Stats are as impressive as your favorite athlete's highlight reel because T Mobile helps keep you connected from the heart of Portland to right where you are On America's largest 5G network Switch now keep your phone and T Mobile will pay it off up to $800 per line via prepaid card. Visit your local T Mobile location or learn more@t mobile.com keepandswitch up to 4 lines via virtual prepaid card. Allow 15 days qualified unlock device, credit service report in 90 plus days device knowledgeable carrier and timely redemption. Required card is no cash access and expires in six months.
- [18:42]
Jeremy Hobson
We live in a divided country.
- [18:44]
Jason Timpf
I am a lifelong Republican with all.
- [18:47]
Jeremy Hobson
Kinds of different people.
- [18:48]
Jason Timpf
You know, I'm a mother, I'm a grandmother.
- [18:51]
Jeremy Hobson
That's why we started the Middle with Jeremy Hobson. It's about bringing voices not from the extremes, but from the vast Middle into the national conversation.
- [18:59]
Unnamed Analyst
Anna, I'm calling from Las Vegas.
- [19:01]
Jeremy Hobson
Each week we bring together an all star panel. Mark Cuban, so great to have you on the Middle.
- [19:06]
Unnamed Analyst
Thanks for having me. Jeremy.
- [19:07]
Jeremy Hobson
Neil degrasse Tyson, welcome to the Middle.
- [19:09]
Jason Timpf
Thanks for having me.
- [19:10]
Jeremy Hobson
And hear from ordinary Americans from all over the country on the most important issues.
- [19:15]
Unnamed Analyst
Hi, my name is Venkat.
- [19:16]
Jason Timpf
I'm calling you from Atlanta, Georgia.
- [19:18]
Jeremy Hobson
And when you subscribe to the Middle, you also get an episode each tweet called One Thing Trump did that focuses on just one item from the avalanche of news.
- [19:27]
Unnamed Analyst
We should be examining what our government spends its money on and are these jobs necessary and what are we doing here?
- [19:32]
Jason Timpf
But that doesn't seem to be what.
- [19:33]
Unnamed Analyst
We'Re doing in this situation.
- [19:35]
Jeremy Hobson
Listen to the Middle with Jeremy Hobson on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
- [19:41]
Greg Rosenthal
What's up everyone? It's Greg Rosenthal and I'm teaming up with the King of Spring, Daniel Jeremiah. He requires me to say that we're going to be bringing you 40s and free agents. The only podcast you'll need this NFL draft season. From DJs mock drafts to my top 101 free agents, we'll have it covered for you with all new episodes every Thursday. Keeping you up to date as we head to the NFL Draft. Listen to 40s and free agents on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast.
- [20:18]
Jason Timpf
It's funny when I look so Denver takes on the Clippers and the Clippers played very well down the stretch. And again, half the league's tanking, half arresting starters. I did think the winner of a Golden State was impressive. I thought James Harden in overtime was great. I thought Kawhi being Kawhi. I mean you never know when he's going to play, but when he does, he still, he's got so many components that remind me of a little bit of a poor man Michael Kobe. The hand size, this physical strength. Despite not being a heavy player. He's a very unique player. I mean, five years ago I thought he was a top three player in the league. I was like, he's a get a bucket, get a stop guy. And he, you know, in the last couple of weeks you're like, wow, he is back. He's just a hard guy to get a read on him. That's why basically Pop just said, I'd rather not make the playoffs. I'm not going to deal with this. He's an enigma. They don't have besides their starting center Zubots. They don't have any size. I mean their backup center is Ben Simmons. There's just nothing there. So Jokic is going to have a monster, just a monster series. And also they're so bad when the Joker's not on the floor that he's going to play 40 minutes. Like they just can't operate without him. This is weird. I thought Denver was going to be a dynasty. They're not. And I knew Malone would wear everybody out. He's not a Spoelstra occur. He's not the kind of part psychologist, part coach. He's a little bit of an old school intense barker. I want to play who I want to play. Battled with the gm, but I don't know if I buy the Clippers late season run. I don't know if I do and I get the world's best basketball player. I don't trust Harden in big playoff spots. I know I'm supposed to take the Clippers, but I just can't see Jokic getting run out of the NBA playoffs in one round.
- [22:18]
Unnamed Analyst
So the point you're making about the regular season results down the stretch is a really important one. It's really the middle tier that is going as hard as they can in this space because the top tier teams are like we're just trying to be healthy for our first round series. The bottom tier teams are we just want Cooper fl. The middle tier teams are all like we do not want to be in the playin. So we're, we're gonna go every single game. Like all of these teams from basically from the Lakers all the way down through the Suns have been playing must win basketball every single night since the trade deadline has passed. That's what happens when you have the play in tournament in the mix. And so I do think there's something to be said about some of the fake results you could see at this point. The only thing that makes it a little more complicated with the Clippers is the Kawhi Leonard part. You are taking a team that was already a rock solid basketball culture anchored by James Harden, a very great floor raising perimeter player in the NBA. Zubots has become one of the top six or seven centers in the NBA. You have the elite perimeter defense talent of Derek Jones Jr. And Chris Dunn. One of the craziest subplots of the year is them pivoting from Paul George who averaged 23 points a game for them last year, and then being like no thank you and taking two discounted perimeter athletes and Derek Jones and Chris Dunn and basically getting a better roster out of it, which is just a huge credit to that organization and them just prioritizing the right things and the culture they're trying to build there. But you're adding to that a player in Kawhi Leonard that legitimately at this point is an apex superstar in this league when he actually has his legs underneath him, the way he's had him late, the ability to get to his spots, the ability to get lift. He was going on Jimmy Butler and making it look easy. Going against Draymond Green and making it look easy. He is at a, he is at his peak as that type of get a stop, get a bucket type of guy right now. That is what changes the ceiling for me with this with the Clippers. I look at it pretty simply. They have four awesome offensive players. Zoo is like good for 20 points a game these days. Harden's good for 20 points a game, Powell's good for 20 points a game. And Kawhi Leonard on any given night can go toe to toe with the best superstars in the league. You surround that With a strong defensive foundation, elite perimeter defense for 48 minutes, Jamal Murray's gonna have Derrick Jones and Chris Dunn all over him that entire series. Zoo even is one of the rare guys who's big and strong enough to kind of hang in, hang with Jokic a little bit. Jokic tried to post up Zubots six times this season. Went 1 for 6 from the field. Now I think he'll do a little better. He's too good to not figure that out. But him posting up Zoo is not the same as him posting up these other skinny centers that he posts around the league. It's a little bit harder for him to win the ground battle there. Really what caused me to pick the Clippers in this matchup was the defense for Denver.
- [25:09]
Jason Timpf
Right? Right.
- [25:10]
Unnamed Analyst
The Denver's defense is so far gone, Colin, it's like so far gone. It's like off the reservation gone. Doesn't even slightly resemble the defense they won the championship with.
- [25:19]
Jason Timpf
You know what?
- [25:19]
Unnamed Analyst
And Jason, they're just not close part of it.
- [25:23]
Jason Timpf
And I really believe defense is effort. Not to interrupt you offense. Offense is fun. Defense is not. You could tell Malone was in trouble. To me, when I watched their defense, I thought, okay, they. They're not playing hard for the coach. Like if a team's playing great defense and they're just limited offensively, some of that's just lack of talent. When a team. And Denver's not a great defensive team, Gordon's very long and athletic. But when they stopped playing defense this year, and I don't know what the analytics said, but when I watched them, I mean, team scored easily. Remember the Lakers went down there and just got great looks for two hours. I'm like, okay, Malone's in big trouble because. Because the great defensive teams, I mean Boston, for as good as they are, can play defense. That means they're in tune with Missoula. Defense is coaching and effort. And so I think a lot of. And I think the problem for Denver and A Memphis, by the way, is when you lose your coach and now you've got kind of the substitute teacher who's not as good as the head coach. That's. That's the difference. That's why I think Houston, they like their coach, they can hang with Golden State, is they'll just give you an incredible effort every night. And I think Denver's biggest problem is they quit on their coach. And when you quit on your coach, you quit on defense because it's a lot of fricking work in this league to stop marginal players. Forget the stars.
- [26:51]
Unnamed Analyst
No, absolutely. And. And it's all about, like, habits. And this is the thing. Denver is starting from a position of disadvantage on defense. Jokic is not a good defender. Jamal Murray is not a good defender. Michael Porter Jr. Is not a good defender. So when they were at their best defensively, it was a combination to your point of strong game planning that fit their personnel and a commitment every day to be like, we're going to be so sharp in these habits that even though we have these weak points, we're going to find a way to get enough stops that our offense can carry us over the top. The problem this year is they've let go of those habits. And what gets scary is calling like, it's April 16th. There aren't too many examples in NBA history of a team who played bad defense all year who was like, all right, we got the coach we want. Now let's go. Let's go figure this out. Like, I just have a hard time believing that they're just going to snap their fingers and look like the 2023 Nuggets. And again, they're capable. I've watched Michael Porter Jr. And Jamal and Jokic play much better defense than they've played this season. It's just hard to just start that engine from scratch. And so here's the thing. Maybe they figure it out and I can't write them off. This was the hardest series for me to pick Colin by far. And right now in DraftKings, if I'm not mist mistaken, it's a pick em. It's minus 110 both ways.
- [28:02]
Jason Timpf
Yeah.
- [28:02]
Unnamed Analyst
So like, it is. It is as close as it can get. But the reason why I ended up taking the Clippers is I just think they're substantially better defensively and closer to Denver offensively than Denver is to them on the other end of the well.
- [28:14]
Jason Timpf
And Ty Lou is probably worth a game in the series. Let's be honest. If you have a coaching advantage, it's a game in the series. You make an adjustment and the other coaching staff doesn't. I think football coaching is more valuable than basketball coaching, but I can go back to a couple of those. That warrior series when they beat the Celtics in the finals and they went back to Boston, boy, that was a lot of coaching. That was great coaching by Steve Kerr. So I think Ty Lue is one of the more understated. You know, he's not a guy that needs a lot of publicity. He was a grinder as a player. He's a grinder as a Coach, but he'll be worth a game against, you know, against the substitute teacher, he's going to be worth a game in the series. So I agree. I think the Clippers are going to win too. But it is hard because I said this the other day. I had actually somebody come up to me on the. And he was a former Laker. It was Sasha. And I said the best center I've ever seen, complete player is Kareem. And I grew up with him. He was a 14:15 time all defensive team. Ran the floor when he was young. Rebound unstoppable offensive force, cerebral, prickly, but could throw an elbow. Ask Kent Benson. I think the player he went after, he could give you everything. He was wiry, but he could be physical. I think because of that defensive prowess he is better than Jokic. I think Jokic is the second most gifted center of all time. Now, people would say Wilt, but Wilt was flaky. You didn't know what the effort you got. He wasn't easy to play with. You got different variations of Wilt depending on the night before. And Wilt was kind of into Wilt where I think Jokic is actually a really good team player. I just think he's not engaged defensively all the time. But I. Outside of Kareem, I mean generally with a center, I can say Shaq, power, Russell, defense, Akeem, footwork. I can say something. I look at Jokic and I'm like, like if Kareem, I mean if Kareem Arvida Sabonis. Bill Walton had a baby. It's like, you know, I think Bill Walton is the one player, very briefly, not the old Walton with the Celtics who was great, but he wasn't as good as the UCLA or the Portland Walton. There was a time when Bill Walton was like the best passing big ever. The best mid range jumper, ran the floor. Could be super physical, kind of weird, but I think Jokic is. I just don't think I've ever quite seen anything like him. That's my dad. I don't know if I've ever seen anything like him. Him.
- [30:54]
Unnamed Analyst
He's the best offensive player I've ever seen. Colin.
- [30:57]
Jason Timpf
Wow.
- [30:57]
Unnamed Analyst
And. And I have watched and rooted for two of the greats that have ever done that or rooted for, against, I should say. I think LeBron is on the short list of guys who are in that conversation. I think Steph is on the short list of guys who are in that conversation. Having rooted for LeBron and then being terrified of Steph and rooting against him over the years. I know what it's like to be on the other end of a player who like legitimately creates a great shot almost every time down the floor. Jokic makes it look even easier than those guys do. It's the top tier playmaking piece that you get from LeBron, the inverted spacing that you get from Steph that creates all the dunks and layups right underneath the basket, but mixed in with the lack of variance. Cause like Steph, like Steph will have games where he just can't make a shot.
- [31:45]
Jason Timpf
Right?
- [31:45]
Unnamed Analyst
You know that doesn't happen with Jokic. Like if he gets into the five to ten foot range, it's going in two out of three times like clockwork. He's going to make it. And, and so there's a lack of variance. There's a power element to it. He can kind of audible into different players. Like, it's like, okay, I'm playing the Spurs, I'm just going to post up every single time down the floor. Watch it. Watching this Clipper series, we won't see as much Jokic post ups. It's not his advantage. But guess what? He can run inverted ball screens and like literally play pick and roll as the handler out on the perimeter. He can run two man game with Jamal Murray. His versatility and dependability night to night mixed with all the inverted stuff he does with the spacing. I have never seen a player make it look EAS on offense than Nicola Jokic did. It like it's, it's rooting against him is absolute hell. Having had to do that over the last couple of years, I, he, he deserves a good amount of criticism for what happened to their defense this year, especially in the second half of the year. I thought he just straight up mailed it in and like you made some good points about how that might have had something to do with Mike B. I agree with you. But even if you just take that and set it aside, he still had one of the greatest seasons in the history of the league because he's the greatest offensive player to ever touch the floor.
- [32:58]
Jason Timpf
Yeah, it is. You know, it's funny because Luca and him have kind of similar body types where they're in great shape, probably, you know, relative for the type. For the type. But Luka's got a lot of her can jerk and start and stop to his game that gets open. He, he's, he's very good at, he's just keeps you constantly on his hip and off balance. You're never quite sure he's not fast, but he is kind of quick for his size. And he's always bouncing off you. Never loses kind of composure or the ball while there's contact, but it's a start stop game that's hard to, you know, that's hard to defend. Jokic just sort of rolls into you. And I think a lot of players, they're like, Draymond has said this. There's no real book on him because it's, it's, you know, in the NFL, there's always that. They always talk about that bad body. Offensive lineman Donald Penn was known as this for the Raiders. Bad body. So effective, like, there was no weak spot. He was weirdly long and he had a weird ass and his shoulders were huge. And it was like a bad body offensive lineman where it's like, yeah, it's just defensive players couldn't quite figure out a weak spot. I think there's nobody else kind of quite built like him that plays like him. So, you know, I mean, there are certain guys in this league, I mean, just think about it. If you did a silhouette, nobody else had the sky hook. Nobody quite moves cardio wise. Like Steph. I think part of what he does is no other big. When you play him, it's just, okay, this is. There's no warmup. This is the only guy that plays like this. And so, and I'm not saying the league is similar, but there are a lot of twitchy, long, athletic guys who have similar moves that they've learned from camps and coaches. Right? And certain step moves. I think Jokic is a disaster to defend the body. I mean, a lot of times he just leans in and you get trapped under him around the back. You ever see this when these big guys get trapped and he gets like three looks and you just can't. You can't get your hips aligned to box him out.
- [35:13]
Unnamed Analyst
You can't jump when you're connected with him. That's the thing. This is why boxing out is so important. When you box a player out, it keeps him ground bound so that you can come in from behind to get the rebound elsewhere on the floor, floor. Similarly, Jokic does the same thing to defensive players. He's constantly dislodging you and putting you in these situations where you are not athletic because he's disrupted your base so you can't jump. And then that way he just finds these little angles for these little release points. I love the point you made about how the league has changed because I found this to be really fascinating. So part of Michael Jordan's dominance was that the league was so big and slow, and so he was this lightning quick guard, just cut through everyone like butter. Similarly with Jokic. The league is so thin and fast.
- [35:56]
Jason Timpf
Yes.
- [35:56]
Unnamed Analyst
That he's just a bowling ball that's just knocking everybody over on his way to the rim. In a weird way, like, part of it is just the timing of the era. But to his credit, because this is the thing, there are a lot of big centers that can't play in the NBA today because they can't do this or they can't do that. They struggle with this, they struggle with that. Jokic, because he's good enough in all of these other areas to be a useful NBA player, can we weaponize his size? And all of a sudden it's like, oh, man, there's 450 players in this league and Jo Embiid might be the only guy big enough to actually deal with him. And he's not even healthy all the time. So he just has a mismatch every single night because of the era that he plays in.
- [36:33]
Jason Timpf
Well, it's. It's like Derrick Henry, the running back for the Ravens. As linebackers and safeties have gotten smaller because the game is faster. Linebackers are 225. Derrick Henry's 250. So, you know, 20 years ago, linebackers were as big as Derrick Henry. And now guys, can't they just. Derek is a physical mismatch and he gets a running start. And I do think that I've said it, the league over the last 12 years has become kind of the skinny jeans Euro league. Like, it's a lot of centers that weigh 243 and he's just a load. Physically.
- [37:08]
T Mobile
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- [37:39]
Jeremy Hobson
We live in a divided country.
- [37:41]
Jason Timpf
I am a lifelong Republican with all.
- [37:44]
Jeremy Hobson
Kinds of different people.
- [37:45]
Jason Timpf
You know, I'm a mother, I'm a grandmother.
- [37:48]
Jeremy Hobson
That's why we started the middle with Jeremy Hobson. It's about bringing voices not from the extremes, but from the vast middle into the national conversation.
- [37:56]
Unnamed Analyst
Anna, I'm calling from Las Vegas.
- [37:58]
Jeremy Hobson
Each week we bring together an all star panel. Mark Cuban, so great to have you on the Middle.
- [38:03]
Unnamed Analyst
Thanks for having me.
- [38:04]
Jeremy Hobson
Jeremy, Neil, Degrasse Tyson, welcome to the Middle.
- [38:06]
Jason Timpf
Thanks for having me.
- [38:07]
Jeremy Hobson
And hear from ordinary Americans from all over the country. Country on the most important issues.
- [38:12]
Unnamed Analyst
Hi, my name is Venkat.
- [38:13]
Jason Timpf
I'm calling you from Atlanta, Georgia.
- [38:15]
Jeremy Hobson
And when you subscribe to the Middle, you also get an episode each week called One Thing Trump did that focuses on just one item from the avalanche of news.
- [38:24]
Unnamed Analyst
We should be examining what our government spends its money on and are these jobs necessary and what are we doing here?
- [38:29]
Jason Timpf
But that doesn't seem to be what.
- [38:30]
Unnamed Analyst
We'Re doing in this situation.
- [38:32]
Jeremy Hobson
Listen to the Middle with Jeremy Hobson on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcasts.
- [38:38]
Greg Rosenthal
What's up, everyone? It's Greg Rosenthal and I'm teaming up with the king of spring, Daniel Jeremiah. He requires me to say that we're going to be bringing you 40s and free agents, the only podcast you'll need this NFL draft season. From DJs mock drafts to my top 101, free agents will have it covered for you with all new episodes every Thursday, keeping you up to date as we head to the NFL Draft. Listen to 40s and free agents, agents on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
- [39:08]
Jason Timpf
And now for our next segment, whiskey business, brought to you by Green River Whiskey, the official whiskey of the Colin Cowherd podcast. If you want to enjoy life's simple pleasures, reach for Green River Whiskey. Whether it's rye whiskey, single barrel bourbon, you're getting over a century of craftsmanship packed into every bottle. Hop on over to greenriverwhiskey.com and discover legend in a Bottle today. All right, one final thing. You know, I was talking to Chris Broussard about this today. So if you look at the point differential, I think the OKC Thunder set an NBA record historically for point differential at the end of the season. They ran a lot of teams out of the gym, so they have the advantage of they got a dominant score. So they always know at the end of a clock they always know who to go to. They've got size, they got depth, they're well coached. And because they don't have a trophy yet, they play. They play their ass off. This is a team that wants home court advantage. They're young Enough where they know if there is any disadvantage in the playoffs, it's young guys playing road games at the Chase Center. You know, at crypto like that, that's when they play a veteran team on the road. That's where things get dicey. You don't get those calls. Role players in the playoffs don't play well in the road. They're often very good at home, so they want home court advantage. So a part of me thinks, okay, they're a little overvalued as a team because they really remember the Derrick Rose Bulls teams. Those teams played so hard, they wanted home court advantage. They were young. Boston's like sometimes plays better on the road than at home. You know, it doesn't really matter for them. I look at OKC and I think, okay, if you take the regular season, they should sort of roll through this. But I watched them about six times this year in a big game when they played, you know, the Lakers or the Celtics or the Cavs or the Bucks or the. And you're like, yeah, when every. When everybody brings the energy. I don't think they're sweeping series. I think. I think they'll struggle a little bit on the road. I mean, they can get really sga. Reliant. I mean, he, he is. And also I don't think he'll quite get the whistle. We've seen this with Harden, we saw it with Karl Malone. I mean, they're not getting bounced early, but. But I think it'll look a little different in the postseason.
- [41:28]
Unnamed Analyst
I agree. I.
- [41:29]
Greg Rosenthal
The.
- [41:30]
Unnamed Analyst
I think they'll. I think they'll kick the shit out of whoever gets the eight seed, like Sacramento or Memphis or whatever like I. Those teams, I think they'll deal with. Memphis has been down, turning down for a long time. There's actually a long conversation we could have on another day about how Memphis should probably totally reconsider who they build their team around because it just looks. It just doesn't look even remotely good in enough. But Sacramento doesn't have the Horses defensively. Dallas, because of the injury to Kyrie Irving, doesn't have the ball handling. They're going to beat whoever they get in that first round series, but from there it's like they're going to get either that awesome Clippers team or Nicola Jokic, and then on the other side of the bracket, they're going to get most likely either the Lakers or the warriors waiting for them on the other side there. And the warriors have beat the Thunder this year. The Lakers have beat the Thunder this.
- [42:15]
Jason Timpf
Year I watched it.
- [42:16]
Unnamed Analyst
They, they, they had, they have their advantages in that matchup. As a matter of fact. Fact, I'd probably pick the Lakers to beat him if they ran into him in a series. And so it's one of those things where I, I think I, I look back to several of these big games and the same thing has happened in every single one of them, which is all of the younger stars. And I like, Chet is, Chet is going to be a perennial all NBA guy.
- [42:38]
Jason Timpf
Really good player.
- [42:39]
Unnamed Analyst
J Dub is going to be a perennial all star. I'm a huge believer in that roster in the big picture, but those are some young dudes, Colin. And there is something to be said about basketball aura. And you end up on a court with a bunch of guys who are more comfortable and more confident and more experienced than you. And let's say the Thunder make it to the finals. Let's say they get to the finals and they run into Boston. How many times in NBA history it just happened to Boston in 2022. You end up there and it's like all of a sudden Tatum is just like scared and not playing anything like he normally does. And they're just succumbing to the aura of the warriors over the course of that season series. Even the all time greats, Colin. Steph was pretty rough in his first NBA Finals. LeBron was brutal in his first NBA Finals. It is totally normal when you get to that stage to be like, whoa, this is different. There's way more media. The games feel weird. There's like, it's just a very different type of vibe. And so I think my concern is that they have two reliable things. I think their defense is reliable and I think, and I think Shea is reliable. But I do think there's absolutely a great deal of variance in their supporting offensive talent. And if you have that kind of variance, you absolutely can lose to the Clippers, you absolutely can lose to the Nuggets, you absolutely can lose to the Lakers or Warriors.
- [43:54]
Jason Timpf
Well, I mean, we saw it in college basketball. I didn't pick Duke to win it. Why? Too many young players. You get into these close games, you get against more physical teams and like, if you've never made a long playoff run and you're really talented, you can't believe how fricking physical the conference finals gets. I mean, it is noticeable. Jason. The referees change the way they officiate for the conference finals. I mean, they, they swallow the whistle and you'll notice it a little bit early in the playoffs, but a lot of times I can remember that OKC team that had Harden and Westbrook and Kevin Durant. They were really good. And they just didn't like. They just quite. Didn't, didn't quite. You know, in the regular season, they fly into town, they blitz you. You look at a little bit of film. They had too much offense. It's like, what the hell is this? And everybody just kind of, you know, at that point, we didn't know exactly what Harden was going to be. I, I think they're going to find out in the conference final by the second series. They're going to find out on the road. It's a totally different sport.
- [45:03]
Unnamed Analyst
NBA history tells us that this teams like this Thunder team usually win, like next year or the year after Cleveland.
- [45:11]
Jason Timpf
Two years ago we thought was ready.
- [45:14]
Unnamed Analyst
It's like, it's just. What usually happens is you take a couple of hard losses in late playoff rounds and a couple of key players take those losses to heart and make important improvements in specific parts of their game. And then they end up in a series where they're like a two seed instead of the runaway one seed. And they're there and they're like, we are not losing this year. And then they rise to the occasion and they get it done. It's kind of like what happened with the Celtics. You have the disappointment of what happened in 2022, then it gets even worse in the conference finals next year, and it's like, whoa, Jaylen Brown, like, really needs to improve as a ball handler. And then all of it just comes together in 2024. All of a sudden. Jaylen Brown's winning finals MVP, like, it usually is incremental, not immediate when it comes to the success of these younger teams. And yeah, they'll have breakthroughs. They might upset somebody. I wouldn't be surprised if the Thunder made it to the finals this year. As a matter of fact, I still think they should be favored to win the west, but it's just, I have a really hard. That if they made it to the Finals, they would be the more comfortable and more confident team against Boston. And I still think Boston has more talent than them. So I just would have a really hard time picking against them.
- [46:21]
Jason Timpf
Yeah, I think the Celtics are. I think if you look at the history of the NBA, because aesthetics matter so much that we love the Shaq Kobe dynasty, the Michael dynasty, the Katy dynasty. We didn't love the spurs dynasty. And it was as good as any of them because it wasn't as much fun. And I think because Boston doesn't have a ton of personality. Joe Missoula is very quiet, very Christian, very much about team and defense. He's a wonderful coach. No flash from the coach. Tatum is can say he wants to be the face of the league, but he just doesn't have that aura. Jalen Brown's probably the voice of the locker room, but you know, he's almost like academic and you know, he feels sort of almost respectful when he speaks with confidence. Right. Porzingis isn't that guy. Drew Holiday is one of the league's most respected players. There's not a lot of. It's not a player. Yeah. It's not a dynamic team. I think Boston's really good and I think that San Antonio you had man who's the best six man ever. Duncan's one of the ten best players ever. Tony Parker was an mvp. They had excellent. Bruce Bowen, all sorts of different players that came in and played great roles. Popovich is top five. Coach. Coach. We never mentioned them because aesthetically it just wasn't that much fun. I went to 10 spurs games because I was in Portland at the time and I went to 10 of their games, the spurs games, when they were in the dynasty. Jesus. It was so clinical. It was a great surgeon walking in, you know, winning 101, 93. And it was like, did they break a sweat? It was. Every game looked the exact same. And, and, and now Boston has very variation because of their three point shooting. They have nights when they're just unbelievable and nights when they miss 42 threes. So there's great variables on how they play. I think there's. I mean they have nine guys, 10 guys who can handle the ball, pass and shoot at three.
- [48:28]
Unnamed Analyst
The only thing I'll say about Boston that's concerning me just a tiny bit. And it's just something we should keep on our radar, Colin, because we could be having a very different conversation in a week or two too. Jalen Brown got a, a pain relieving injection in his knee. I'm not sure if you saw that. He's been dealing with knee issues throughout the year. And he got a pain relieving injection when this was about a week ago. And so Jalen's knee, let's say that becomes an issue and then like one of Horford or Porzingis goes down. That's where it could end up. In a situation where you're trying to close games with a Sam Houser on the floor or you're trying to close games with a Peyton Pritchard on the floor and suddenly they become a little bit easier to attack, a little bit less dynamic on offense. I'm, I, I'm just, my, my ears are just a little pricked up and I'm a little, I'm paying attention to their health. That is one thing to keep an eye on, just because Jalen Brown, I think, I think if you lose one of Tatum or Brown, it just gets really hard in terms of shot creation because as you saw in the Maverick series, just Jalen's apex athleticism is still an important part of the ceiling of this Celtics team, even though he can be a frustrating player, you know, relative to Tatum in terms of his consistency. So just something to keep an eye on there. But I do agree with you. I just, every time I talk through it, I just have such an easier time discussing flaws and finding flaws with other teams than I do with Boston. It's really that simple.
- [49:51]
Jason Timpf
Jason Timp, hoops tonight. Good talking to you, bud. Can't wait for it.
- [49:54]
Unnamed Analyst
Good to see you too, man. I'll see you next time.
- [49:58]
Jason Timpf
The Volume.
- [50:01]
Jeremy Hobson
We live in a divided country, and our media couldn't be more polarizing. That's why we started the Middle with Jeremy Hobson. It's about bringing voices not from the extremes, but from the vast middle, into the national conversation. Each week, we hear from ordinary Americans from all over the country. And when you subscribe to the Middle, you also get an episode each week called One Thing Trump did that focuses on just one item from the avalanche of news. Listen to the Middle with Jeremy Hobson on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
- [50:31]
Greg Rosenthal
What's up, everyone? It's Greg Rosenthal, and I'm teaming up with the King of Spring, Daniel Jeremiah. He requires me to say that we're going to be bringing you 40s and free agents, the only podcast you'll need this NFL draft season. From DJs, mock drafts to my top 101 free agents will have it covered for you, with all new episodes every Thursday keeping you up to date as we head to the NFL Draft. Listen to 40s and free agents on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast.