← The Herd with Colin Cowherd
The Herd with Colin Cowherd
Pacers-Thunder NBA Finals Game 3 Reaction: Indiana bench shines, OKC gassed
00:41:29
Loading summary
Transcript95 lines
- [00:00]
Host
This is an iHeart podcast. Is your team still running on yesterday's tech? Time for an upgrade. The ThinkPad X1 carbon is ultralight, ultra powerful and powered by Intel Core Ultra processor so you can work, create and boost productivity all on one device. If you need security, well, Lenovo's ThinkShield helps protect your business from modern threats. Need smarter performance built in AI features keep things running fast and efficiently. And if you're looking for perks, Lenovo Pro gives you exclusive business benefits, extra savings savings and access to essential tools. Stop hitting snooze on new tech. Win the tech. Search for business PCs@lenovo.com just like how true champs master both offense and defense.
- [00:44]
Colin Cowherd
The BMW IX masters both ultimate performance and unbeatable space. Love mine.
- [00:50]
Host
The greatest legends in sports never compromise.
- [00:52]
Colin Cowherd
In any aspect of their game.
- [00:53]
Host
So why would you settle for anything.
- [00:55]
Colin Cowherd
Less from your suv? What I love about my BMW IX is that it redefines the electric vehicle experience seamlessly integrates powerful performance. It's bold, daring design, a refined interior.
- [01:06]
Host
Details cutting edge technology. Basically pushes the boundaries of innovation. Thousands of details went into creating the.
- [01:12]
Colin Cowherd
Ultimate electric SUV compromise.
- [01:15]
Host
Not one of them Summer is here and you can now get almost anything you need for your sunny days delivered with Uber Eats. Now what do we mean by almost? Well, you can't get a well groomed lawn delivered, but you can get chicken parm delivered. A nice tan? Sorry, A box fan? Happily, yes. A day of sunshine? No? A box of fine wines? Yes. Uber Eats can definitely get you that. Get almost almost anything delivered with Uber Eats. Order now. Alcohol in select markets. Product availability may vary by region. See app for details.
- [01:55]
Unknown Sponsor Voice
This podcast is sponsored by Total Wireless, the official wireless partner of ufc. When you're streaming the fight or sharing those takedown highlights, you need a wireless provider that keeps you close to the action. With Total Wireless, you're covered by the Verizon 5G network, so you don't have to worry about your connection being knocked out at the biggest moments. It's not something you can usually say about a wireless provider, but Total Wireless really does have your back. They're in your corner every second of the day, so you never miss a thing. Visit totalwireless.com or visit your local Total Wireless Store to learn more about how Total Wireless can be in your corner. 5G access requires a 5G capable device and a 5G service area. Additional terms apply. See website for details.
- [02:47]
Colin Cowherd
The Volume.
- [02:51]
Host
Just like how true champs.
- [02:52]
Colin Cowherd
Master both offense and defense, the BMW IX masters both ultimate performance and unbeatable Speed, Love mine.
- [02:59]
Host
The greatest legends in sports never compromise.
- [03:01]
Colin Cowherd
In any aspect of their game.
- [03:03]
Host
So why would you settle for anything.
- [03:04]
Colin Cowherd
Less from your suv? What I love about my BMW IX is that it redefines the electric vehicle experience seamlessly integrates powerful performance. It's bold, daring design, a refined interior.
- [03:16]
Host
Details, cutting edge technology. Basically pushes the boundaries of innovation. So thousands of details went into creating.
- [03:22]
Colin Cowherd
The ultimate electric SUV Compromise. Not one of them.
- [03:27]
Jason Tatum
Foreign. Welcome to Hoops Tonight here at the Volume. Happy Wednesday, everybody. Hope all of you guys are having a great week. Well, coming into the series, we were hopeful that things would be competitive, that they'd be interesting. And here we are after three games of the NBA finals in the pacers are up 212 games away from potentially stealing what would be one of the craziest NBA championships that I've seen in my time covering the NBA. I can think of nobody better to break this down with then Colin Cowherd who's been kind enough to give us his time tonight and join the show. Colin, where is your head at after three games of the NBA Finals?
- [04:08]
Colin Cowherd
Well, the Pacers, you know, and you and I had talked about this, the Celtics this year were better on the road than at home. Denver is the same team. Oklahoma City is not the same team on the road. They're not. They're. They're bench players. Their rotational players are young. That's the downside to youth. They are not the same team on the road. They're very vulnerable. Tonight they had 19 turnovers. They got really sloppy. I didn't think SGA ever got into a great rhythm. He did a great job coaching and prodding and poking his team. But my takeaway is like tonight was a game that, you know, in football there's the old thing about you can steal yards and field position and over the course of a game you get better field position. I thought the Pacers, between steals, blocks, they had 11 between offensive rebounds, stole about eight to 10 points tonight. Just sneaky points, you know, like one of them is McConnell on the inbounds, I think from Caruso, steals that point. That's a huge, huge play, especially when you're the home team and the crowd erupts. And I just thought over the course of the game, just eight, four or five baskets either denied or provided sneaky points. And that's kind of the difference in the game. It was just, I mean that, that game, until the last three minutes, I didn't know who was going to win it. It was just a very tight game and I Think they deserve a lot of credit. I mean, Indiana's bench. Jesus. I mean, God, that again. Bench at home, bench on the road. Matheran, who starts sometimes for them, who reminds me a little bit of a. A little Westbrook. You know, he. Westbrook was hyper athletic. Matheran was a quarterback and a hockey player in Canada, goes to Arizona as, you know, crushes it. Super athletic, but not as out of control as Westbrook. Like he's going to be. He's going to be a great player in this league. But I guess that's my. The Pacers, just a lot of blocks and steals and effort points and that's the ball game.
- [06:17]
Unknown Sponsor Voice
Yeah.
- [06:18]
Jason Tatum
You know, I had my eye on Matheran and, and McConnell in particular off of the Pacers bench coming into this series. Not because I'm an Arizona fan, although obviously it's been awesome watching those guys just kill it. I mean, 28 points in an NBA Finals game, that is like a real feather in the cap for a young basketball player. And honestly, like, when you. I've had a lot of mailbag questions and things like that from fans over the course of the last couple of weeks who've been asking, like, what's the next step for the Pacers? Like, where's their next leap? And it's that kid. It's him. Yeah, it's him becoming, no question, 25, 26, an All Star level guard.
- [06:52]
Colin Cowherd
Yeah. And, you know, I said this and I don't know if you and I talked about this. Oklahoma City's got more depth, but there's this sense that, okay, Oklahoma City's talents here and Indiana's is below. And I'm like, I don't, I don't really buy that. I think, I think McConnell, I think TJ McConnell is a really, really good basketball player. I think Matheran, who started some games for them this year, he started. He was like their third or fourth leading scorer. He's exploding. I mean, we all know that Siakam and Halle are great. Miles Turner's defense in the second half was unbelievable. Like, I don't think the gap in talent, especially when you go back home, I don't think it's that. I mean, Obi Toppin, his dunk, I put it, put him up by seven and then he got a block on the other end. Like, I think the talent disparity here is inches, not feet. I, I think Indiana's got a real team and they, and they have a lot of different players. I mean, Obi toppins Hyper Athlet. Miles Turner's A rim protector say Occam's got a pretty touch. Halle's more assist than scoring but can do both. Niecemith can hit threes. McConnell's the spark plug. Matherin's the young emerging hyper athletic guy. I mean they got a lot of levers to pull. So I, I watched this. I, it's just fun watching this series. I'm like, at the end of the game I'm like, is Indiana have more good players? I mean they just pulled a lot of levers tonight.
- [08:19]
Jason Tatum
I do think they're better down the roster in terms of just the, the level of like consistency they get from all of their supporting players. Like there's like, I'm watching the end of the second quarter and like Ben Shepard's out there and Matheran and McConnell and I'm sitting there and I'm like, this is Carlisle riding his bench in like what is typically a starting group session. I think where you see the talent gap between OKC and Indiana is like just that like top end shot creation. Like when things really bog down and both defenses are locked in. Shea is just so much better at like getting to his spots and finding those like shots that he can make. I think the, I do think that Oklahoma City at their best, their ceiling is higher than Indiana, like when they're moving the ball well, when they're knocking down shots. And for the record, like if you're in a matchup like this where you're a substantial underdog, you're trying to create variance, you're trying to create margin and all the stuff you're talking about, I agree with you. They won this game in the margins. They won this game forcing turnovers, blocking shots at the rim in ball, pressuring Shay Gilders Alexander so much that he looked exhausted by the end of the game. Like, and this is all low hanging fruit in basketball that's available for basically everybody. Anybody can pick up the ball full court, anybody can be aggressive in rotation and play passing lanes. There's a certain athletic minimum you need to have, but anybody's capable of taking advantage of these margins. And to me, that's been the story of the Pacers this entire postseason run is they have been so good on the margins, they're making it so that the, the, the, the, their variance is much lower than other teams because they're getting so much of that low hanging fruit every single game.
- [09:56]
Colin Cowherd
So Oklahoma City is 2 and 4 on the road in the last three playoff rounds. So we have found the hole. You know, every boxer, every baseball player, even Barry Bonds when he was on cattle steroids. There's, there's a, there's a, there's part of the strike zone he can't hit. Usually for a batter, it's on the hands and, and we're looking for where's the hole in Oklahoma City's game. And it's this young team on the road. There is a great variance what you get at home and what you get on the road. And we found it. And Indiana is a tremendously good home team. It just, it's, it's. I gotta tell you, Miles Turner doesn't get a lot of love. You know, his, his aesthetic. He'll hit the corner of three, but that dude in the second half, I mean, Holmgren was great early, but Miles Turner is one of those guys that in the league, everybody knows about Miles Turner. I mean, if he's on the market, Lakers included, there'll be multiple Sooners for Miles Turner. Everybody in the league gets it. But on this team, you know, like Tonight we're watching McConnell and we're on Halliburton and we're always watching Siakam. I thought, I thought in the second half, I thought Miles Turner was huge.
- [11:09]
Jason Tatum
I agree. He, he. The specific dynamic he struggled with a little bit in this series is Carlisle has him coming way out to the perimeter to show at the level of these ball screens. And the Thunder guards are just so fast that he's had some trouble containing them there. But in that second, in that second half, it was almost like he found his second win to where he was moving a little better. So he wasn't losing contain as much. Carlisle had him start to be more aggressive and attack the ball in more of like a blitz too, which worked. He forced a couple turnovers that way. And then at the rim, like, Miles Turner has always been one of the best, like shot blockers in the league. He always racks up high shot block totals and got shit at the rim. That close, that he's got crazy length. That close. Out on the three point shot from Chet late, that was a big one. The stuff with Mather and McConnell I find really fascinating. The reason why I was keyed in on them to start the series is when you're playing these young, super athletic teams like Oklahoma City, the guys that become super important are your athletes. The guys that have like some sort of physical trait that's tough to match up with. TJ McConnell is unassuming, but he is actually one of the very best guards in the NBA. Beating people off the dribble. So he's immensely valuable in this matchup because he can get that first bit of dribble penetration that breaks down Oklahoma City's defense. And he's such a good staunch athlete. Like in terms of like his. But being a fire hydrant, low center of gravity guy, he can pressure the ball and pick up full court. He had three steals on baseline inbounds in this game. Those were huge sequences in this game. And then Ben Matheran, same sort of thing. He is capable against a very athletic Thunder team of getting to his spots and rising up and knocking down shots because he's a supreme athlete that can handle the ball. Nemhard is a good ball handler who's not a supreme athlete. And Neesmith is an elite athlete who's not a good ball handler. TJ and Ben are both great athletes and great ball handlers and that's made them very valuable in this matchup. And again, like, like Ben that like we're, we just saw a young player put up a massive 28 point game in a must win NBA finals game. Like that is a huge moment for, for a young player there. And like as far as like zooming out and looking at the series like I still lean Oklahoma City. We have seen before teams like, you know, the series this actually reminds me a lot of is Cleveland in 2015 versus Golden State where Golden State is clearly the better team but they're young and they're inexperienced and it's their first finals appearance and they look a little shook from the environment. Yeah, and LeBr goes up to one on them. Now obviously Indiana doesn't have the LeBron element, but there was obviously way less talent down the roster. But Indiana does have more veteran experience or an older team. Right, but what happens with Indiana here is they're up to one but Golden State was the better team. They came in one game four, then they went home in one game five, then they went back to Cleveland and they won in game six. I am going to give Indiana a good chance to win at least one more home game. So I do think this has a good chance to go seven. But I would still make Oklahoma City the favorite at this point. Before I kick it to you, just so you know, the Thunder are still from DraftKings minus 230 to win the series and the Thunder are minus six favorites in game four. Where are you at in the series moving forward at this point?
- [14:20]
Colin Cowherd
Well, you know, game Sevens in Oklahoma City and they're really good at home. And again bench guys, rotational guys are different players at home. I mean Indiana's bench in the second quarter tonight was insane. I mean, it was literally. I mean, I think Carlisle was shook. I mean, it was just like, wow, that's one of their best quarters of the playoffs. I think, like, one of the things that was a little surprising to me, I thought Oklahoma City looked tired in the fourth.
- [14:50]
Jason Tatum
Oh, yeah.
- [14:51]
Colin Cowherd
And now, now the first half, it was 6460. I think the pace was in it were totally Indiana's pace. It slowed down as games can. Is that it? Situationally is. The possessions get very, very big. But you noticed it too. I thought OKC looked a little gassed in the fourth. They had a bad fourth quarter. Yeah.
- [15:11]
Jason Tatum
So that's the advantage of ball pressure. Like, there's been a lot of talk about the coverages. I have had my concerns with how they've used Turner because I think Turner's a very good shot blocker. So I want him at the rim. I, I, I don't think he's particularly fast, so I don't want him on the perimeter. So, like, I've wanted him sitting further back. But a lot of the full court ball pressure stuff has also had some downsides in that. One of the things Oklahoma City will do is they'll have Hartenstein come out or check come out, and they'll screen like almost at half court while Shea's battling the ball pressure. And then he gets ahead of steam from like 60ft away from the rim. And he got a lot of layups early in the game out of stuff like that. And so there's a downside to ball pressure in that you can beat ball pressure and get dribble penetration. The upside with ball pressure is in the big picture, which is for 48 minutes in front of that crazy home crowd, when facing N. Smith and Matherin and Nemhard and all these guys just in your Jersey the entire game, down the stretch, you just don't have the legs because beating that ball pressure just takes it out of your legs. And so there's no doubt that, like, Indiana played the long game tonight and in Oklahoma City, controlled at various points. But down the stretch, Shea had his hands on his knees. He was trying to grift a little bit more down the stretch, looking for foul calls. Like, you can tell he was tired.
- [16:25]
Colin Cowherd
You know, the other thing that, you know, this is just something you don't talk about a lot. We don't, analysts don't. But I remember talking to Mark Warkentine. I covered him at UNLV with Jerry Tarkanian. He was A an executive in the league. And he used to always say he. The most underappreciated part of those great Michael Jordan Bulls teams was their length. He was like, Rodman was long, Pippen was wrong. Luke Longley was long. Everybody but Steve Kerr was long like Ron Harper. And he was just like. They just got their hand on the balls. Indiana is long when topping Siakam Turner. Halliburton's long. They're tonight just to show you their length. Okc had four blocks, Indiana had 11. Okc had six deals. Indiana had 13. How many balls, how many times in this game did you see the ball loose around the free throw line? And it was just a Pacer that got their hand on it and keep. When they. There. There are certain. I mean, T.J. mcConnell is obviously not long, but he's feisty and quick and he's fast. But when they've got Turner and Halliburton and Toppin, that is the length of the Pacers. And I thought it really frustrated okc. Chet Holmgren had multiple shots blocked. So we don't talk a lot about that. Rebounding is a lot of things beyond length, but length gives you those extra possessions and touches and disruptions. Blocks and steals tonight, I mean, are just totally one sided and I think again, that's stealing points, which I thought the Pacers did.
- [18:06]
Jason Tatum
Yeah, like there was a play where J Dub got a clean corner catch out of the left corner. You might remember this one in the. In the first half and. Or no, it was in the. It was in the second half. It was in the. The early part of the second half. And J Dub drove baseline, had a dunk, but Tyrese came over and Tyrese has long arms. Like Tyrese has got length to your point.
- [18:25]
Colin Cowherd
And he's the longest point guard in the league.
- [18:27]
Jason Tatum
Yeah. And he's got reasonable vertical athleticism too. So he got up and he contested J Dub and Jada missed the dunk. He missed the dunk. And there, there have been a few plays in this year. Like, I actually think Halliburton has been a very good defensive player in this entire playoff run. Like, he's been sneaky. Really good because he's the thing with. And this is to Carlisle's credit, everyone's committed to doing the job. And then Tyrese like plays hard. Like he's got his limitations. He's not very big and strong and it kind of looks like a chicken run around with his head cut off sometimes on defense, but like he's got the length to be impactful in that, in that situation. And yeah, like there was a, there was a stretch there late in the game where Carlisle rides top in for that exact reason. Like him being able to go over the top of Oklahoma City on offense or meet somebody at the summit at the rim on the other end. Like those were that. Those have been huge parts of Indiana success throughout this entire postseason run. And again, like, you want to know how you play passing lanes with length because all of a sudden it looks open, the passer makes the read and it's not open because you have the ability to close that ground. The one thing I will say, and this is one of the reasons why I still lean towards Oklahoma City to win the series. There was a stretch in the third quarter where I thought Oklahoma City really leveraged their athleticism.
- [19:40]
Colin Cowherd
Yeah, they're a good third quarter team too. They've done this in the playoffs multiple times.
- [19:45]
Jason Tatum
Yes. And like going back, even I thought game two felt like the entire night felt like that. I don't think Indiana can beat Oklahoma City in Oklahoma City in a must win game because I think they can leverage their defense and physicality and overall athleticism to the point that's like almost too much for them to overcome. So I think Indiana's pathway is they have to win the two home games. They absolutely can. For the record, I'm not saying Oklahoma City is like the surefire going to still win the series. I lean towards Oklahoma City, but Indiana, I think has to win on Friday and I think they have to win next week on Thursday. I think that's their path.
- [20:24]
Colin Cowherd
Well, in the first six minutes of the game, Oklahoma City was very disruptive. The Pacers were frustrated. The starters, they just weren't getting good looks. So I mean, Oklahoma City, when they weren't gassed late and they, they're disruptive. There's no getting around it. They're just fast and long and, and it's almost collegiate like we've talked about. Doesn't look like other defenses. So, you know, I, I just don't want to fall for this because I fell for it with Denver and Boston and I'm like, oh, these are going to be dynasties. And there are holes in Oklahoma City. I mean, they're, they'll probably lose Jalen Williams eventually. They can't pay everybody and they're going to pay Holmgren because he's just a, you know, he's just physically a different. There's not a lot of him out there. They're going to pay sga. And you know how it Works now, you can't pay three guys. You know, Boston's going to go through this. So, I mean, it's, it's. I know a lot of people look at Oklahoma City and think, oh boy, this is going to be something that they're going to be bad for the league. And my take is this series is great. I mean, we have two of the games in this series have been all timers. And I also think, I think Indiana is a real team. I mean, I'm watching Matheran tonight and again, I think he's got a little bit of Westbrook, but he's not out of control. He's a little bit more refined at this age. He was a better college player than Westbrook. Again, more defined. And I think he was the PAC12 Player of the year. If I recall when he, like, I can't remember actually. Yeah, he was a great player. But my, my takeaway, I watched him and I'm like, oh, they're going to be good. Halliburton and him and McConnell and, and Siakam. It's like Indiana's going nowhere. This. I, I don't know. I said this. Going back to the Cleveland series. I love watching the Pacers play. I love their style. I love their. I love Halliburton. I just, there's just, there's something about a team. There's a joy when Indiana plays. They are having a really good time. And I think it just comes to the TV.
- [22:23]
Jason Tatum
I 100% agree. Like, I understand some of the, the, the negativity surrounding the finals in the sense that, like, it lacks juice for, you know, especially for casual fans. Doesn't have game two games.
- [22:36]
Colin Cowherd
Yeah, yeah.
- [22:36]
Jason Tatum
And game two is super boring. Like, and it, like. And it obviously has not been hitting great TV ratings, but there is a natural ebb and flow with the cycle of the NBA as stars age in and out. And we're definitely in one of those lulls right now. But I do think that the Pacers are providing an excellent showcase for another up and coming team in the Eastern Conference. And by the way, the east is pretty wide open. Like, you could argue Indy has every bit as good a chance to make it back to the finals next year. Oklahoma City does with how open things are in the Eastern Conference. Right. I love the point you made about Oklahoma City. Like, it will get tougher. Like, I think Oklahoma City needs to get this one. Because the reality is, is that once you start it to your point, if you pay all three of those guys max maxes, and by the way. They're not going to be regular maxes. These are going to be all NBA players. They're going to be supermax.
- [23:19]
Colin Cowherd
That's right.
- [23:19]
Jason Tatum
Like right. And so once you pay all those guys, they're going to basically have to surround them with a bunch of guys on rookie contracts. Like I think they're going to end up using all these draft pick draft picks. They have to just cycle role players through and they're going to be hunting like 34 year college guys that play for major programs like Kansas and Villanova that they can trust to come in and play role player basketball in the that's what I think that they're going to end up. That's what I think Sam Presti is going to end up doing. And so their margin will get smaller because they won't be surrounded by as much talent. This is a particularly important series for them to win.
- [23:51]
Colin Cowherd
NBA Finals are here. This is your last chance to bet on the NBA until next season. DraftKings Sportsbook an official betting partner of the NBA. A finals to remember. Pulling out all the stops. One team's going to be crowned champ. Who do you got winning it? Put your hoops expertise to the test. DraftKings has been the go to spot for NBA player props. That doesn't stop now. Try placing a bet in your personal MVP to drop 30 or 40. If you're ready to place your first bet, download the DraftKings sportsbook app. Takes 90 seconds. Lock in your bets. Finish the seasonal winner. Here's something special for first timers new DraftKings customers. All you have to do is bet 5 bucks. 5 bucks. You'll get 300 bucks in bonus bets if your bet wins. Don't miss it. Download the DraftKings sportsbook app. The code is Colin c o l I n the code is Colin. Five bucks can get you 300. If your $5 bet wins only on DraftKings.
- [24:36]
Host
The crown is yours.
- [24:37]
Unknown Sponsor Voice
Gambling problem. Call 1-800-Gambler in New York. Call 877-8-HOPE NY or text Hopeny 467-369 in Connecticut. Help is available for problem gambling. Call 888-789-7777 or visit ccpg.org Please play responsibly on behalf of Boot Hill Casino and resort in Kansas, 21 and over. Age and eligibility varies by jurisdiction. VO new customers only. Bonus bets expire 168 hours after issuance. For additional terms and responsible gaming resources, see DKNG Co Audio.
- [25:08]
Host
Still running your business on yesterday's tech? It's time for an Upgrade, meet the ThinkPad X1 Carbon Gen 12, Lenovo's ultralight, ultra powerful laptop. Built to keep up with your work, your team and your non stop schedule. It's sleek, weighs just over a kilo and packs serious power. With Intel Core Ultra processors, you can unlock new AI experience and also you can work, create and keep productivity flowing all on one device. Security covered Lenovo's ThinkShield protects your device, your data, your identity so you can focus on what actually matters, getting things done. And with built in AI features, everything runs smoothly and efficiently so you're not stuck watching loading bars all day. Need crystal clear visuals? The 14 inch OLED display makes spreadsheets sharper, presentations pop, and video calls feel like face to face meetings. And if you're looking for extra perks, Lenovo Pro hooks you up with exclusive business benefits and savings. Stop hitting snooze on new tech. Win the tech. Search for business PCs@lenovo.com and upgrade to the ThinkPad X1 carbon and experience next level performance. That's lenovo.com.
- [26:18]
Unknown Sponsor Voice
Oikos presents 15 seconds of strength Here we go. Steve's got a trunk full of groceries and no one to help him. Oh, that's tough. Jim looks like a five trip load at least. He grabs the first bag the second bob.
- [26:29]
Jason Tatum
It looks like he's trying to do.
- [26:30]
Unknown Sponsor Voice
It all one trip.
- [26:31]
He shimmies the door open, steps over the dog. Oh, and he stumbles. Oh, right into the kitchen without missing a beat. Jim. Now that's a man who eats his protein packed Oikos. With 15 grams of complete protein in each cup, Oikos Triple Zero can help build strength for every day. Oikos Stronger Makes Everything better this podcast.
- [26:49]
Is sponsored by Total Wireless, the official wireless partner of ufc. So when you're streaming the fight or sharing those takedown highlights, you need a wireless provider that keeps you close to the action. With Total Wireless, you're covered by the Verizon 5G network, so you don't have to worry about your connection being knocked out at the biggest moments. It's not something you can usually say about a wireless provider, but Total Wireless really has your back. They're in your corner every second of the day, so you never miss a thing. They keep you covered for just $25 a month with four lines without sacrificing the essentials like speed. With Total, you get unlimited 5G data so you can stay ahead of the action and keep up with every knockout. Total Wireless understands you can't afford surprise blows any more than your favorite fighter can. That's why the price is guaranteed for five years, taxes and fees included. The best fighters don't make it to the Octagon alone. They have all in support along the way. And it shouldn't be any different for you. So visit totalwireless.com or visit your local Total Wireless store to learn more about how Total Wireless can be in your corner. 5G access requires a 5G capable device and a 5G service area. Monthly rate on the Total Base 5G Unlimited plan for new subscribers applies only to the monthly rate for your plan. Additional terms apply. See website for details.
- [28:25]
Host
You know, there are moments in life where you get to make a real difference. And this is one of them. I want to tell you about Folds of Honor. They provide educational scholarships to the spouses and children of fallen or disabled military members and first responders.
- [28:40]
Colin Cowherd
Think about that for a second.
- [28:41]
Host
Families who've lost everything or are rebuilding their lives and this organization steps in to make sure their kids can still go to college or a spouse can get the training they need to keep moving forward. Since 2007, they've awarded nearly 62,000 scholarships. Last year, about 7,000 qualified students didn't receive funding. And this year that number is expected to grow to nearly 10,000. So if you've been looking for a way to give back, to do something really meaningful, this is it. Go to foldsofhonor.org give what you can. It all matters. Honor their sacrifice by educating their legacy.
- [29:18]
Jason Tatum
I wanted to move on to the Knicks. So I, I see this report this morning and it's from Shams talking about how they're just calling up around all these big shot coaches in the league. Jason Kidd, IME Udoka, Quinn Snyder, Chris Finch. What do you make of this bizarre behavior from the Knicks right now?
- [29:38]
Colin Cowherd
I'm not a tinfoil hat guy, but James Dolan, who's been in a band, I'm not sure if he still is, views himself as an artist and that's why he is his, his, his greatest achievement is not the Knicks. I mean he inherited the Cable Vision from his dad, right. It's the sphere in Vegas, which is a remarkable. Have you been there? I think you.
- [30:00]
Jason Tatum
I've been there six times, Colin. I absolutely love it.
- [30:02]
Host
Yeah.
- [30:03]
Colin Cowherd
So it's a REM musical engagement achievement all time in, in the world and that's really where his heart is. Irving a off a former great promoter. Now I think he's MGM management. He's one of his closest friends. He was, you know, he was a, have Had a record label. That's who. That's who James Dolan is. So when he wants to get a gm, he goes after a star. Phil Jackson. Then he wanted Steve Kerr and Amari Stoudemire on bad knees out of Phoenix. And Tibbs isn't his kind of guy. So who does he go after? Jason Kidd, who's a star. He's interested in Kevin Durant, who's a star. That's who James Dolan is. He hangs around stars. He loves stars. He's a creative. This is not a criticism, but I think he listened to his players grumble. You know, he sat down with his players. And again, he relates to artists and athletes and stars. They just go look at the history. And when he was doing the sphere for two years, he was disengaged from the team. And they got very patient and very pragmatic and very basketbally and very Villanova ish.
- [31:10]
Jason Tatum
Just went right up.
- [31:12]
Colin Cowherd
And that's Tibbs. And so you get rid of Tibbs. It's not the same culture. It's not the same team. You still have the Villanova guys, but it won't feel the same. So it just. It just feels like James. And I don't. I almost, you know, he reminds me a little bit of Jim Ursay in that Ursay would rather sit with his guitar and hang out with Dylan outside of football more than anything else. And I think James Dolan's a little bit of that. And I think he's an emotional guy. He's an artist. He relates to artists and he listens to his stars. And he didn't have a plan. And I think it's a big, big mistake. It this, by the way, this is what every Nick fan dreaded, is that when he came back from the sphere, he would get hands on. And there's various reports on who has their fingerprints on this, but they're not getting rid of Tibbs. He just signed a new deal without Dolan, you know, acquiescing to a suggestion or making the move himself. So in the end, this is what the Knicks, man, this is this league's crazy owners in the NFL and the NBA, you know that all owners now, Jason, are billionaires. It was 10 years ago. They weren't. They made. They were worth 600 million or 800 million. They wouldn't blow out staffs. They didn't want to write a $46 million check. That is a rounding error. Now, to these owners, and they're all. I see it in the NFL all the time. Guys will Just blow out staffs David tepper write a 60, $80 million check. The donors didn't want to do that eight, 10, 12 years ago. They do now. So I, I don't know who they're going to land. They, they, I mean they've been turned down by seven coaches, all the good ones, Finch and email Duca and Jason Kidd and they're just getting turned down by everybody.
- [33:03]
Jason Tatum
Yeah, Matt Ishbia blew out his staff twice within two years of owning the team. It's completely ridiculous. I, you know, it's, it's fascinating because like I tried to look at it in a very open minded way because like I actually do think Jason Kidd's a better coach now than he gets credit for a couple of years ago. I wasn't super high on him, but he just like anybody else as a competitor has been doing it for a while now and he's gotten pretty good at it. Like I looking at the Knicks for a second, like I agree with you in terms of the kind of topsy turvy unstable nature with which you look and you portray to people when you fire your coach in a situation like this. But I also think Tibbs left some meat on the bone with this Knicks team. I thought they underachieved all season like right out the gates they underachieved.
- [33:43]
Colin Cowherd
He brought in all his not he's not a creative offensively, he's not. The team got very predictable offensively.
- [33:50]
Jason Tatum
I thought the major issue with this team schematically was spacing and it actually impacted both ends of the floor on offense. The meant what you're mentioning in terms of creative offense. Like his what he did on offense in terms of his creativity. The spacing for this team was extremely poor which made life very difficult. But it had a trickle down effect in the sense that or spacing also affects your transition defense. Like if you don't have your guys situated in proper spaces on the floor then on misses and turnovers you don't have guys in position to be back in transition defense and the Pacers annihilated them in transition in worse than ever in game six like embarrassing fashion in game six to see Akam and everyone else was just getting run out, layup after run out, dunk after run out layup. So like I did think there was like a defensible case with to move on from tibs to more of a tactician. I actually see Jason kid is a solid option in the sense that he was a master of modern four out spacing with Luca when he was there, which actually I think is a really natural fit with Brunson. And Brunson co played for Kid before, so there's like some natural stuff there. And then he did a good job with transition defense with the Mavs despite them not being super athletic. So I give him credit for that. That would work. The, the thing there is, it's just unrealistic. And if I'm Jason Kidd, why would like, I don't actually see the Knicks as that great of a job. Like insane New York pressure. The roster is really good, but it's not amazing. It's not like, oh, by the way.
- [35:16]
Colin Cowherd
Mikhail Bridges wants a new contract. Oh, geez, getting paid. Brunson's getting paid. Like the Mitchell Robinson. These guys are getting paid. Like that Dallas thing. Lively is not getting paid. Cooper Flag won't get paid. I don't know if Max Christie doesn't cost much ads getting paid, but you get 24 and 11. Like, yeah, I look at Dallas and I'm like, I get excellence when they're healthy and I get an incredible top end with Lively and Flag. I know what the Knicks are and there's a ceiling. And I see it all the time.
- [35:51]
Jason Tatum
Yeah, exactly. Like, I don't see it as being the kind of job that Jason Kidd would be willing to basically sabotage his situation and force his way there and then like the other names I saw, I didn't even particularly like. Like, IME Udoka is a motivator. He. That's like his primary role. I don't think that's a specific need for the Knicks. Like, I think the specific thing the Knicks need is just someone to come in and take them to the next level in terms of their offensive organization and their spacing, which will lead to them having a bunch of additional benefits in transition defense. I understand there's a hesitancy to call a guy like Mike Malone and the reason why is because he has a reputation for being a hard ass. And Tibbs was kind of a hard ass. And like, I don't think they want to go down that route again. But there's like hard ass and then there's tibs. Like Mike Malone leaned on his starters, big minutes, but still not even close to what Tibbs did. And one of the things I'll say about Mike Malone, he was an excellent defense and spacing coach. He made a championship defense out of non championship defensive talent. And they were always consistently one of the best floor spacing teams in the league. And they were very good. And again, we can, we gotta at least acknowledge Jokic was there. So Jokic makes it a lot easier, obviously, but he specifically was very good at making spacing opportunities out of non spacers. Guys like Aaron Gordon, guys like Christian Brown, guys like Bruce Brown over the years, guys like Russell Westbrook, even. So like fitting a guy like Josh Hart, Mitchell Robinson, some of these non shooting types of players, even Mikhail Bridges, who has struggled a lot as a shooter in this postseason run. Like, I actually think Mike Malone is a really good fit for this Knicks team. I think he's a completely reasonable option that doesn't involve you doing something insane like calling around the league. Because here's what gets crazy. Let's say you call the Mavs and they're like, okay, sure, let's talk about Jason Kidd. What are you going to offer us? We already acknowledge this is not a championship roster. So you're going to give up assets for a coach. You need players, you need talent in there. So like specifically defensive talent, your front court. So I don't really understand what the end game is here.
- [37:47]
Colin Cowherd
Yeah, I just, I, I am on the short list of people that think Dallas is going to be really good, really fast. I think Flag and Lively are, you know, they're Duke guys. They're going to be quick learners. They play at the highest level of competition collegiately. I think one's going to be 1's 21 or 22. He's going to be a rim protector for the next decade. So Cooper Flag can be out in transition. Won't have to worry about being down low and getting jammed up, which has always been what LeBron loves. He doesn't want to be messed up in that junk. He wants the, you know, he wants that ball out and up the court. So. And I just, you know, P.J. washington, Christie. If Kyrie comes back, I'm not sure what they're going to do with him. Ad I, I would forget the taxes, forget everything else. I would not leave Dallas. I think Dallas is a good job. The situation that's fascinating to me is Houston, because I think, I think right now San Antonio is about ready to pop. So I like San Antonio and they could get Giannis and I think OKC is set. And I think Houston's going to be in that group of three young teams a little lost because Jalen Green. Amen. Thompson's excellent, Sen Goon's excellent. But there's just a lot of athleticism that's not very good in a half court game. And I think, I think OKC has popped. San Antonio's going to pop and I so I, I could I if I'm, if I'm adoka I I would consider the job. I think Houston's one of those that the national media, we hover in, we drop in, we go, oh, I got Houston. I didn't like what I saw, I'll be honest. And I think you can push him around. I don't think they have a lot of half court possessions that are just sort of lost. You don't get good looks. They look a little disorganized. I but, but Jason Kidd to me, the next five years in Dallas are going to be fascinating with just this trajectory that goes through the roof.
- [39:52]
Jason Tatum
The roster is weird because it's kind of imbalanced in the sense that they just have an absurd amount of front court talent. Like you, you don't need Lively Gafford, Anthony Davis, P.J. washington and Cooper Flag. Like that's five starting caliber players that all play the four or the five. So like I, I, I do see an imbalance there, but there's an insane amount of talent and I actually go the other way there, which is like they can afford to go into training camp and just bring all these guys in and start, start playing and basically look around the league and be like, who's gonna throw us the Godfather offer for PJ Washington, for Daniel Gaffer, for Anthony Davis? Like that. You could argue that AD is going to be the target that someone goes after. Like if, because AD's hurt now, so he's got that classic, everyone's down on him, they think he's old, they think he's beat up. AD comes out of training camp looking like he's in great shape, motivated, kicks everybody's butt for a couple months. He instantly becomes like a dude you could flip for. An enormous mountain of assets. And so I, I look at, I look at Dallas as a very healthy situation moving forward. It's not the same. Luka Doncic were right on the doorstep of the title, but they do have a lot of big picture potential.
- [41:00]
Colin Cowherd
If you miss the hard hits of football pads, faster play clocks and non stop action, this is what you need to be watching. Arena Football 1 on Vice TV. Football at full speed. The field's tighter, the plays are faster, the hits come quick. It's eight on eight, Ironman style. No downtime, no let up. This Sunday, June 15th, the Southwest Kansas Storm face off against the Selena Liberty. Expect big, big plays and big scoring. Real competition start to Finish. Arena Football 1 Sunday at 6:30 Eastern p.m. 6:30pm Eastern. Go to Vicetv.com to find your channel.
- [41:32]
Host
Still running your business on yesterday's tech? It's time for an Upgrade. Meet the ThinkPad X1 Carbon Gen 12 Lenovo's Ultra Light, ultra powerful laptop. Built to keep up with your work, your team and your non stop schedule. It's sleek, weighs just over a kilo and packs serious power. With Intel Core Ultra processors, you can unlock new AI experience and also you can work, create and keep productivity flowing all on one device. Security covered Lenovo's ThinkShield protects your device, your data, your identity so you can focus on what actually matters, getting things done. And with built in AI features, everything runs smoothly and efficiently so you're not stuck watching loading bars all day. Need crystal clear visuals? The 14 inch OLED display makes spreadsheets sharper, presentations pop, and video calls feel like face to face meetings. And if you're looking for extra perks, Lenovo Pro hooks you up with exclusive business benefits and savings. Stop hitting snooze on new tech, Win the tech. Search for business PCs@lenovo.com and upgrade to the ThinkPad X1 carbon and experience next level performance. That's lenovo.com.
- [42:41]
Unknown Sponsor Voice
Oikos presents 15 seconds of strength Here we go. Steve's got a trunk full of groceries and no one to help him. Oh, that's tough. Jim looks like a five trip load at least. He grabs the first bag the second Bob.
- [42:53]
Jason Tatum
It looks like he's trying to do.
- [42:54]
Unknown Sponsor Voice
It all in one trip.
- [42:55]
He shimmies the door open, steps over the dog. Oh, and he stumbles. Oh, right into the kitchen without missing a beat. Jim. Now that's a man who eats his protein packed Oikos. With 15 grams of complete protein in each cup. Oikos Triple Zero can help build strength for every day. Oikos Stronger makes everything better.
- [43:12]
This podcast is sponsored by Total Wireless, the official wireless partner of ufc. So when you're streaming the fight or sharing those takedown highlights, you need a wireless provider that keeps you close to the action. With Total Wireless, you're covered by the Verizon 5G network, so you don't have to worry about your connection being knocked out at the biggest moments. It's not something you can usually say about a wireless provider, but Total Wireless really has your back. They're in your corner every second of the day, so you never miss a thing. They keep you covered for just $25 a month with four lines without sacrificing the essentials like speed. With Total, you get unlimited 5G data so you can stay ahead of the action and keep up with every knockout. Total Wireless understands you can't afford surprise blows any more than your favorite fighter can. That's why the price is guaranteed for five years, taxes and fees included. The best fighters don't make it to the Octagon alone. They have all in support along the way, and it shouldn't be any different for you. So visit totalwireless.com or visit your local Total Wireless store to learn more about how Total Wireless can be in your corner. 5G access requires a 5G capable device and a 5G service area. Monthly rate on the Total Base 5G Unlimited plan for new subscribers applies only to the monthly rate for your plan. Additional terms apply. See website for details.
- [44:49]
Host
You know, there are moments in life where you get to make a real difference, and this is one of them. I want to tell you about Folds of Honor. They provide educational scholarships to the spouses and children of fallen or disabled military members and first responders. Think about that for a second. Families who've lost everything or are rebuilding their lives, and this organization steps in to make sure their kids can still go to college or a spouse can get the training they need to keep moving forward. Since 2007, they've awarded nearly 62,000 scholarships. Last year, about 7,000 qualified students didn't receive funding, and this year that number is expected to grow to nearly 10,000. So if you've been looking for a way to give back to do something really meaningful, this is it. Go to foldsofhonor.org give what you can. It all matters. Honor their sacrifice by educating their legacy.
- [45:41]
Jason Tatum
We got a report from Shams today that Kevin Durant and his business partner Rich Kleiman are kind of canvassing the league looking for potential opportunities. The five names that were thrown out in the Shams report or the Houston Rockets, San Antonio spurs, the Miami Heat, the Minnesota Timberwolves and the New York Knicks. What did where did your head go when you saw that report this morning?
- [46:05]
Colin Cowherd
Well, I think he works everywhere. I think there's very few players that fit everywhere, and KD is one of them. He doesn't necessarily need to be the soul of the team. He doesn't need the ball constantly in his hands. You get great length, a willing defender, 24, 26. I I think KD fits everywhere. You know, if I was KD, I New York, I think he fits New York well. But Brunson has the ball in his hands. I mean, in his mind, is he thinking Brunson's got some Westbrook like dribble the air out of the ball and I'm sitting in the corner. Like, I could see him. Like, I've been through that. You know, Kyrie, who he played with also can be a little bit like that. So I, I could see KD just saying, you know, because he's got the leverage here, I could see him saying, I've kind of done the ball centric guard thing. I just don't want it again. Pat Riley and Spolster are very convincing people. Miami's a great place to play. No state tax, it's a winter league, a lot of warm weather. Like, Miami's a really attractive place out East. But I, I'm a KD fan. I think he fits in a lot of places. And Minnesota, he obviously fits. And you know, we've talked about this. Like, LeBron in his prime was great, but he had to be the offensive ecosystem. You had to. Chris Bosh had to reduce. You know, got marginalized. Kevin Love can get marginalized. Guys get away from the rim. Go. You know, Kyrie Irving, you can't have the ball. That. So Kevin never provides that kind of obstacle. Like, he just kind of fits. So I, I can tell you this. If, if, if, if you were a GM and you talked to a coach or players, a lot of guys would raise their hands and say, get kd. Because I think he loves basketball. He's a good teammate, he's got a good sense of humor. He doesn't need to be the media darling. I, I think he's really liked and respected in the league.
- [48:08]
Jason Tatum
I 100 agree. I, you know, I love the point you made about his fit. Like, he, all five of these teams, the basketball makes a lot of sense. There's one, the one team that I was like, that doesn't make as much of a sense in terms of the basketball fit to me was the Spurs. Because it's like, I don't love the idea of putting a super thin front court player that likes the perimeter next to another super thin front court player that likes to. Yeah, I wasn't a huge fan of that one. It also just doesn't really fit San Antonio's timeline. So the spurs one was weird for me. The Heat, I liked the fit. I just don't know why KD would go there, because it just feels like another move to a team that's not good enough to win the title. Like, I'm just not sure that like is, is Kevin Durant, Tyler Harrow, bam, Adebayo, is that enough to win the title? I Don't, I don't think so.
- [48:52]
Colin Cowherd
When I'm watching that kid Benedict Matheran. Yeah, Mather for indie tonight. I mean I'm not trying to overreact here, but when I'm watching him and I'm like, Jesus, he's just a kid. Like he's gonna, you're gonna get this two out of three games next year. Like this is this, I mean he, by the way, again, I think, think. Wasn't he the third leading scorer on the team or fourth leading scorer this year?
- [49:13]
Jason Tatum
Like he coming into the, coming into the series, he was actually the highest per minute score for the Pacers in this playoff run because I was in a shorter role. But his like points per 36 minutes was the highest on the team. Yeah.
- [49:25]
Colin Cowherd
Okay. So I watch him and I think, oh, he's going to become a full time starter and it will be Siakam, Halle and Matheran are their three leading scorers. So I mean I just, I'm looking at the east and I'm like, I, I think Indiana is going to take a leap next year. You know, they'll play with a finals level confidence. So I just, I don't think, I just, I, I'm not just saying this because they're up 2 to 1. I look at Indiana and I'm like, man, that is a team with, I mean outside of, I mean Siakam, he is what he is. If I feel like 75% of Indiana, all those players will be better next year. I mean out Siakam's game is his game.
- [50:13]
Jason Tatum
They're better than they were last year.
- [50:15]
Colin Cowherd
It's just like all of them, I was just so impressed with them tonight. So we can start talking about with Tatum out next year. It's going to run through Indy. We got to be honest about this. It's going to run through Indy. They are deep, they're well coached. Most of their players are ascending. But east is running through Indy.
- [50:35]
Jason Tatum
Yeah, I, I agree and I don't see the heat as like an obvious like oh, he goes there and he's all of a sudden the favorite in the Eastern Conference. I like the Rockets fit. I think it, his skill set is desperately needed. As a guy who's a shot creator, shoot from the perimeter. He also brings length at the rim which is not like the Rockets are a big strong team. They're not like a long arms team. Like Jabari Smith Jr. Is like the one guy they have that offers.
- [51:00]
Colin Cowherd
The Rockets need him. Jason. I would argue the Rockets need him more than any other team that he would play for. They need him. Their half court offense gets lost a lot.
- [51:11]
Jason Tatum
Yeah and and he would go in there and immediately vault them into top tier championship contention. So that move makes some sense. I will say by far. Out of these five teams, my favorite fit is the Timberwolves. It's a similar lack of redundancy in the sense that he brings kind of like exactly what the team doesn't have, which is a rock solid secondary ball handler next to and who can really generate shots for his team, but they can surround KD with elite super physical defense which is what he hasn't had in these other destinations. And also similarly Nasrid not super vertical. Julius Randle not super vertical. Rudy Gobert is vertical but like they they Kevin Durant would be a guy at the four spot. Different from Cat last year, different from Nas who brings real vertical length to the table where you can imagine Jaden McDaniels, Kevin Durant and Rudy Gobert on the floor together in that front line and it's like all arms just everywhere and it would just be really, really difficult to handle. But it's going to be really interesting. I'm hopeful, I'm hopeful that we get a pretty quick like set of action here in late June where we find out where all these guys land. But Colin, I sincerely appreciate you taking the time to join us tonight. It was good to see you, Colin. It was great to see you man.
- [52:22]
Colin Cowherd
Great to see you buddy. The Volume thanks so much for listening.
- [52:28]
Host
If you've enjoyed the podcast, take a.
- [52:30]
Colin Cowherd
Moment Rate and Review this podcast is.
- [52:33]
Unknown Sponsor Voice
Sponsored by Total Wireless, the official wireless partner of ufc. When you're streaming the fight or sharing those takedown highlights, you need a wireless provider that keeps you close to the action. With Total Wireless, you're covered by the Verizon 5G network, so you don't have to worry about your connection being knocked out at the biggest moments. It's not something you can usually say about a wireless provider, but Total Wireless really does have your back. They're in your corner every second of the day, so you never miss a thing. Visit totalwireless.com or visit your local Total Wireless store to learn more about how Total Wireless can be in your corner. 5G access requires a 5G capable device and a 5G service area. Additional terms apply. See website for details.
- [53:23]
Host
Is your team still running on yesterday's tech? Time for an upgrade. The ThinkPad X1 carbon is ultralight, ultra powerful and powered by Intel Core Ultra processor so you can work, create and boost productivity all on one device. If you need security, Lenovo's ThinkShield helps protect your business from modern threats. Need smarter performance built in AI features keep things running fast and efficiently. And if you're looking for perks, Lenovo Pro gives you exclusive business benefits, extra savings, and access to essential tools. Stop hitting snooze on new tech when the tech search for business PCs@lenovo.com.
- [54:00]
Colin Cowherd
Every.
- [54:00]
Host
Once in a while, you get the chance to make a real difference, and this is one of those moments. Folds of Honor provides educational scholarships to the spouses and children of fallen or disabled military members and first responders. It's a powerful mission, honoring their sacrifice through the Gift of Education. But last year, about 7,000 qualified students didn't receive funding, and that number is expected to grow to nearly 10,000. Don't let financial needs stand in the way of their future. Visit foldsofhonor.org to donate. Any amount helps. Together, we can close that gap one scholarship at a time. Home emergencies wait for no one, and you shouldn't either. Whether it's plumbing, electric, heating, or cooling, HomeServe has you covered. Get a plan from HomeServe for peace of mind, starting at 5 bucks a month. That's it@homeserve.com Find out how to save on repairs@homeserve.com HomeServe a subscription for peace of Mind not available everywhere. Most plans range between 399to $11.99 a month. Your first year terms apply on covered repairs. This is an iHeart podcast.