← The Herd with Colin Cowherd
The Herd with Colin Cowherd
Colin Cowherd Podcast - Pay Terry, Trade Parsons, Expectations For JJ McCarthy? Antonio Gates HoF Career, Why Undrafted Players Become Stars
01:09:16
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- [00:00]
Angela Ride
This is an iHeart podcast.
- [00:05]
Katie Couric
On the latest episode of Next Question with me, Katie Couric. I sat down with Jasmine Crockett, Democratic representative of Texas. She's holding down the fort for her party in one of the most conservative states in the union.
- [00:18]
Angela Ride
I think that ultimately who will become the Democratic nominee for president will be someone that has been out there and has shown that they won't allow themselves to be punched and just say thank you like they will punch back.
- [00:31]
Katie Couric
Listen to Next Question with me, Katie Couric on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.
- [00:39]
Freddy Prinze Jr.
We're breaking down SummerSlam, the biggest party of the summer on Wrestling with Freddy. From our bold picks to storyline breakdowns, we will discuss who walks out with gold, who shocks the night and which matches steal the show we call the winners, the upsets and the chaos to expect. Plus, whatever swerves nobody saw coming. Listen to Wrestling with Freddie as part of the Mike Kultura Podcast Network, available on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
- [01:06]
A.J. Jacobs
Let's start with a quick puzzle. The answer is Ken Jennings appearance on the puzzler with A.J. jacobs. The question is, what is the most entertaining listening experience in podcast land Jeopardy truthers believe in?
- [01:23]
Freddy Prinze Jr.
I guess they would be conspiracy theorists.
- [01:26]
A.J. Jacobs
That's right.
- [01:27]
John Middlekoff
They gave you the answers and you still blew it.
- [01:29]
A.J. Jacobs
The PU listen on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.
- [01:37]
John Middlekoff
Who cares about truth when the lies more entertaining.
- [01:40]
Angela Ride
Welcome home. I'm Angela Ride, co host of the Native Lampod with Andrew Gillum and Tiffany Cross, and we want y' all to survive and thrive in this political moment.
- [01:47]
Colin Cowherd
We're having the same debates that American.
- [01:49]
John Middlekoff
Households are having all over the country.
- [01:51]
Angela Ride
I am terrified that in our rest we're going to miss the moment. You want me to stop resting? What specifically are you asking me to do? Stop. Stay informed and take action.
- [02:01]
Colin Cowherd
Listen to Native Land pod on the.
- [02:04]
John Middlekoff
Iheartradio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcast.
- [02:10]
Dani Shapiro
The Volume.
- [02:25]
Colin Cowherd
I am literally just off a plane. Can I have my only complaint of Chicago so far? So you're going to be joining me this weekend for the live tour stop in Chicago that o'. Hare. First of all, o' Hare is about an hour from downtown. It could be worse, a little better, or a little worse, depending on the traffic. But when you land in Chicago and I don't know where it is, like LA, it always felt lax. It was about 10 minutes. Your taxi can be 25 minutes today it was 28 once we landed. 28 minutes to get to the gate. It's just such a damn big airport now. United is almost always better than American. Delta doesn't have any presence here. A little JetBlue maybe, but. So that's why I'm scrambling to get on the air. Thank God I sat in red for two hours on my flight. By the way, when you live in Phoenix, when you live in Arizona. So in Chicago, I head to Rhode island and take some time off. Where do you go in the summer?
- [03:30]
John Middlekoff
We usually just go. I mean, I've been here now three years for the most part, because her family is back in Sacramento, Bay Area. Tahoe, you know, we go back there. So mainly to Tahoe, but it's to see our. Our parents, our moms, our brothers. Her brother lives in Reno, just had a baby. My brother has a couple young kids. He's younger than me, lives in. In the Sacramento area. So we usually go back to California, which is an easy. The good thing with Phoenix, you know, Phoenix to Vegas, Phoenix to la, Phoenix to the Sacramento Bay area. These are all very easy flights. So for the most part, I haven't ventured, you know, your way up. Until I went to. I went to the Texas Oklahoma game last year and I got married in Nashville, I guess so. But again, I would say this for Phoenix. The airport's kind of poorly built, but it is relatively efficient. You know, I lived in Philly for a couple years. That could be a shit show. San Francisco can be outrageous. Obviously, lax. You know, it just depends. And like you said about Chicago and Philly was like this. A lot of the east coast areas, when they would get these storms. Yes, especially in the winter, can just derail the Phoenix. I mean, most people are flying in, I would say, obviously we get people flying in from the Midwest or the Northeast, but it's a lot of west coast travel.
- [04:46]
Colin Cowherd
Yeah, no, listen, for anybody that's not been to Lake Tahoe, I highly recommend it in the summer. It is an unbelievable gem in North America. It reminds me a little bit of Bam up in Canada. Calgary, where it's just. It just doesn't look like anything else you've ever been to. So I'm glad you didn't.
- [05:02]
John Middlekoff
You go. Did you go with Kelly James to Cordova a couple years ago?
- [05:06]
Colin Cowherd
You know, Kelly James Coeur d'? Alene? I went to Court Lane. Yeah. That concert's crazy.
- [05:14]
John Middlekoff
He's a stud.
- [05:15]
Colin Cowherd
He's the absolute stud. Look him up, folks. So listen, my takeaway on all these camps because I kind of, when I go on vacation, I watch a little bit. But you know, I am gallant. I am cocktailing. I am with the dogs and my wife and hanging out. When I watch all this camp stuff, I will say that I think there are grains of truth in everything. I think you can edit it any way you want. I don't think it means everything. I think there's something. I'm going to still stick with my prediction that J.J. mcCarthy will, if he does have success. It's a little bit of a Brock Purdy thing. It's the coach, it's the left tackle, it's the weapons that will put him in a place that I think elevates him beyond what he would be with average personnel, average coach or bad. I don't think Brock Purdy's good enough to save a bad situation. But I think in the current situation with Trent Williams, KITTLE Jennings, Shanahan McCaffrey, I think more than capable. I tend to think McCarthy is going to fall into that. I mean, left tackle, head coach, running back, tight end, I think. I think J.J. mcCarthy would have to be bad not to have some Brock Purdy level success where, you know, he's not a physical specimen, but he can complete passes and move the chains.
- [06:41]
John Middlekoff
I do think though, he, you know, Brock Purdy got to come in toward middle the end of the year, right? So there was less pressure. And let's face it, when Jimmy Garoppolo shattered his ankle, the expectations for Brock Purdy were zilch. I mean, I thought their season was over. And then the kid just started rattling off games, you know, for J.J. mcCarthy, little like Trey Lance when the 49ers drafted him, kind of like Caleb, but we didn't really believe in eber flu. It's pretty rare that a guy that was drafted pretty high starts on a team that. What do you think is a fair expectations? Anything less than the NFC Championship game, with their roster, their coaching staff, it's really, really high. You know, it's not like 9 and 8 and some growing pains, you know. Justin Jefferson had some comments within the last week. You could just tell it's like our expectations here are high and it's like this is a work in progress. Now. The good thing is you can get better, right? He might not be same with Caleb. Same with a lot of these guys. What they look like in September, they might look a lot better in November. But it can go the other way too. It can break you. So if you have a couple tough games how do you handle that adversity? That's, that's really what all the NFL is, right, is handling the tough times to get to the better times.
- [07:52]
Colin Cowherd
I was reading somebody in the athletic ranked the coaching staffs and I didn't disagree. He had Minnesota as the best coaching staff in the league. I think he had San Francisco with Kyle and Salah too.
- [08:02]
John Middlekoff
Are you talking the whole staff?
- [08:05]
Colin Cowherd
Yeah. I mean, basically head coach, top two coordinators. He had Minnesota number one. And I think, and I've said this about Brock Purdy, I mean, literally, he got the keys to a Mercedes. You get Shanahan McCaffrey, Trent Williams at the time, Debo, IU, Kittle, I mean, that's hard to mess up. I mean, if you're just capable, if you're quick above the shoulders, which I think JJ McCarthy and Brock Purdy are, I think they're smart guys. The downside to it is it's not, it's a hard evaluation. It's hard to evaluate somebody when they're, I mean it would be like putting somebody with Charles Barkley, Shaq and Ernie Johnson. It's hard to really say what. Kenny Smith is certainly capable, but his role on that show is to kind of poke the bear and just kind of have fun and be the straight man. And so it is hard to make an, it's an easy evaluation on Jaden Daniels last year. Oh, shit. He's carrying a battle line, a defensive coach, a one weapon offense. Wow. It's like Andrew Luck. He's a Herbert's rookie year. Wow, this is impressive. I think JJ is going to be a hard evaluation because how much of the success is based on, I mean, let's be honest, last year in week 14, Sam Darnold was first or second, an MVP. He was a bust going to Minnesota. So like, like now I don't even know quite what to make of Darnold. What is Darnold?
- [09:37]
John Middlekoff
Well, I, I, I'm pretty high. I think Darnold, I, I think their team's going to be pretty good, you know, given health, the talent in Seattle. I, I would expect, you know, pretty high things for Sam, Maybe not throw 35 touchdowns, but to just be a solid player in the NFL moving forward, you know, be a guy that's on, on the good side of the top 15 of the quarterbacks. Not, you know, somewhere between 22 and 32. Like most people thought he just sucked. But one thing going back to Darnold, he said that changed his career was not just Kyle believing him, but watching Brock Purdy operate. And the thing that separated Brock Purdy immediately was not his height, was not his arm strength, it was all the intangible stuff which he had built for four years at an, let's face it, when he got there, kind of an average football program that him and Matt Campbell transitioned into a high level football program where he was getting offered by usc. And a big reason was because of Brock Purdy. You know, I mean let's face it, Mel Tucker got some big jobs because, you know, got a huge extension because of Kenneth Walker. Sometimes one or two individuals at not the top tier programs can change the course of your career. So Brock Purdy, his intangibles are a huge separating factor for why, you know, the all the guys with the 49ers, coaches and players believe in them. And you know, JJ he's just going.
- [10:53]
Colin Cowherd
To have to prove it, you know.
- [10:55]
John Middlekoff
And it's going to have to be part of his repertoire. Are you getting there at five in the morning? Are you grinding Monday through Saturday? Because that's all these quarterbacks, that's all they talk about. It's not just the grind on Tom Brady's been talking about Mondays and Tuesdays for 15 years.
- [11:11]
Colin Cowherd
Yeah, I mean it's, I think one of the things that Brock Purdy had a real and we're talking here J.J. mcCarthy, Brock Purdy, the comp is you know, they're a little smaller than you'd like, they don't have huge arms. There were questions about both. One's first round pick and I think a bit overdrafted. One's a seventh round pick, clearly underdrafted. But the one thing that Brock Purdy had on J.J. mcCarthy Brock had to carry pretty average players. Now he had Breece hall, but by and large it was Iowa state guys. Whereas JJ McCarthy was carried by the best O line in football. A loaded roster. And I've always said this, John, I've been saying, I wrote about this in my first book, you would think it's very linear. You know, USC should have 25 great NFL quarterbacks in the history of the NFL. They have one Carson Palmer is that you would think LSU has 15 or Bama's got 12 and Ohio State has 14. They don't because it's an advantage in college to go to Cal like Goff and Aaron Rodgers or go to NC State like Russell Wilson did for three years or Philip Rivers because you don't throw to five star receivers and you're always hurried like Matt Ryan or Big Ben. Big Ben at Ohio State would Have sat in that pocket for days at Miami of Ohio. He had to be the playmaker. So the advantage Brock Purdy has is, dude, I'm carrying. I'm carrying mostly average dudes, right? Like when you face Oklahoma, Oklahoma, the 22 starters has 19 guys would start on Iowa State's roster. And so one of the things about J.J. mcCarthy, my biggest question, he's never once had to carry a football team.
- [12:55]
John Middlekoff
Well, I think in a perfect world, JJ McCarthy, honestly his comp also ironically with 49ers a little Jimmy Garoppolo just in terms of like playing in the sense of not carrying the team. His physical skills pretty solid. JJ's a better athlete. But look at Jimmy, who was drafted in the second round, got to sit, learn, was not thrust into anything. Obviously benefited from Tom Brady. You know, JG is getting thrown into this thing. Imagine if Jimmy Garoppolo just been thrown on the Patriots like year two year his career. I mean, who knows? Maybe it would have gone well, but it could have gone. It was an intense environment. Not quite that because they had been winning championships and obviously Kirk Cousins is not and Sam Darnold are not Tom Brady. But there is an intensity with everyone in football going, yeah, it's one of the best rosters in the league, if not the best. Oh yeah. And if you do the coordinator combo, which the head coach and Brian Flores, that's as good as it gets. So we just saw him last year, you know, they had all those injuries toward the end of the season and Sam, you know, didn't play great either. But that O line injuries with Sam Darnold, like just kind of crumbled at the end. But at least they were in the fight. I mean, they were going into the last game with four. And think of all the big plays. I mean, a huge part. I remember watching Sam Darnold's introductory press conference and one of the questions they asked Mike McDonald was how big of an evaluation process was that game that he played against you and threw that touchdown to basically knock you out of the playoffs. He's like, obviously I had a front row seat and I'm the defensive guru. I mean, he didn't exactly say this, but he's the defense is my baby and he's eating me alive. So how could it not play a part? Now you got to be careful with that. It was the aggregate body of work over the course of the season. But I. Sam threw 35 touchdowns last year. I know like Matt Stafford threw 20. So that's. There's just a lot of pressure on J.J. it's going to be hard to just have a season where you throw 20 touchdowns. Especially as a young player. You're probably going to throw some picks and have a record that's competing. I mean it's hard to make the playoffs. The NFC might not have beside the Eagles, maybe not the powerhouses of like the Bills, the Ravens and the Chiefs, but I think they go 10 deep of teams that are just going to be tough.
- [15:07]
Colin Cowherd
Yeah, no, there was a two year window and I've used the Cowboys as an example. There was about a three year window when the AFC hit on all these good quarterbacks. Burl Lamar, Josh Herbert, as about a three year window, the AFC was noticeably better than the nfc and now it's not. In fact, I think the AFC is better at the top. I think the NFC is deeper. I think there's just a lot, I mean I think Tampa is really good. I think the Rams, Seattle, the Niners, you could argue everybody, if the Bears hit is good in the nfc, North Philadelphia and Washington are excellent. So yeah, I mean it's, there's, you start looking at Minnesota schedules, there's not a lot of, there's not a lot of layups. You know, there's not a lot of par threes. It is, it's pretty rough. So I'm okay. And it's interesting because I'm really, I'm, I like watching young quarterbacks. I like there's a lot in the NFL I know and you and I know like we know who the good coaches are. We know Buffalo is going to be good in Baltimore and Kansas City. We just know that. We also know like for instance, even the things we don't know, we're pretty sure of. Vrabel and New England are going to be massively improved. Like we kind of feel that Sean Payton's got it rolling in Denver Chargers will probably take another step up. Here's another team. The Raiders should be noticeably better just on staffing and quarterback play. But the, but the two teams that we, we don't know a lot about and I, I are Minnesota. We don't know McCarthy and Chicago and Chicago could go either way. So as I watched all these clips this weekend in the last four or five days, my take is whatever, it's confirmation bias. I want Chicago to work. I live here. I know Caleb. I'd love to see the Bears to finally have a good offense. So I watch the clips and I think, oh, he's dynamic. But if you, if you, if you're Not a Caleb Williams fan. You can see a lot of clips and go, this is not going to work. Where are you on what you've seen so far?
- [17:11]
John Middlekoff
I don't think it's just clips. I think it goes back to the off season when Ben Johnson's like, your body language sucks. The way you carry yourself and get off the ground is not good enough. And those are things that young coaches, you know, first time coordinators that become a head coach, especially offensive guys that can tend to be a little more cerebral, can be a little easier on guys. And I do have to wonder if the last couple years watching Dan Campbell again, I've watched a lot of Ben Johnson's press conferences the last couple weeks. He doesn't come. He's not like he's trying to be Dan Campbell in terms of like in front of the mic, some super tough guy. But clearly the expectations and how hard he's. These cancels, you know, they've gone out and he sent them back like I was like, damn, this guy is not messing around. And it does feel centered around the quarterback. That again, based on a clip of watching him throw the ball into a net and not even come close. You're like not great. Here's what we know though. Historically, if you give a draft of four quarterbacks and a couple of them become high end guys, we already know Jaden Daniels. Even if he takes a little bit of a step back from the high end. CJ Stroud's really good player still, right? CJ Had a down year. Everyone would buy CJ Stroud stock moving forward. No different Jaden Daniels a hit. Bo Nix. I just don't see how Denver is not going to be consistent for a while and Bo Nicks is going to be good. So we got two of the six.
- [18:29]
Colin Cowherd
Well, and Drake May. And Drake May with a real coach and 300 million in free agency. I mean there were times last year and that was a bad staff. There were times I watched Drake May and I thought, oh, I see the Herbert comp.
- [18:43]
John Middlekoff
And you go, worst case scenario, you're going to get with Vrabel. The way he operates, look what he did with Tannehill. He could just create an environment. Maybe Drake Bacon become a bigger, more athletic like Jimmy Garoppolo type. He's going to be okay, you know, even if he doesn't become Josh Allen or Herbert, he's going to be solid. So we're now we're down to 50%. So we got the other three. Pennix. I'm just, I think Atlanta is kind of a weird place.
- [19:07]
Colin Cowherd
Yeah.
- [19:07]
John Middlekoff
And I just, you know, the owner think. I just. I'm kind of out. The Cousins think still around. Even though he's a high character guy, it's just. I just don't buy into that organization. Jj, Major question mark. Caleb, to me is still the question mark with Ben Johnson. But my, My theory is this. You've talked a lot about this. That the, the clock on these guys. This. This isn't 1997.
- [19:31]
Colin Cowherd
No.
- [19:32]
John Middlekoff
Where most of these owners don't have big cash. They will pivot off guys in a moment's notice. I was in the car the other day and I was flipping around and I listened to NFL radio and how he was on. They had like, the NFL radio crew was going through and he's like, they were talking about the draft pick of Jalen Hurts and he was like, you know, we had just given Carson Wentz a huge contract the year before, and that was seven, eight years ago. Maybe not that long ago. 2018ish. Right. It was after they, you know, the year after they won the Super Bowl. Think how much more money is getting distributed now. What, they just give out $450 million? Well, what's that number going to be in three or four years? $600 million? These teams are not worried about with and on a guy. I mean, it's not an ideal situation to be in. But if. Caleb, let's just say this year that it goes, you know, I think Ben Johnson knows what he's doing. But they win eight games. It is not going to be Ben Johnson's fault. Like, he's not going anywhere. And all of a sudden it would be an off season. Do they go sign whoever the equivalent is of that 15, $20 million bridge quarterback and have an open competition? There is pressure on him this year to me, to play well. And playing well isn't just throwing up stats. You better be winning.
- [20:42]
Colin Cowherd
Yeah. Two things to think about, too. Detroit looked awful in the hall of Fame game. They looked unorganized. So when Detroit pulls back this year and the hall of Fame game aside, we don't know.
- [20:53]
John Middlekoff
I mean, it's their threes, but. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
- [20:56]
Colin Cowherd
But they did look disorganized. Let's say that Detroit looks like they miss Ben Johnson. That will empower Ben Johnson. So if Caleb struggles and Detroit pulls back, people will say it's not Ben Johnson. Like, look at me. Detroit's this powerhouse. Detroit's been the most discussed offense in the league because of how creative they were. If Detroit pulls back. We think they will. The division's better and we don't think Ben Johnson's fill ins. Ben Johnson then all of a sudden it empowers Ben more. And then if Caleb struggles, it's just. And there's already questions and also Caleb is talented enough that even if he didn't work with Ben, it wouldn't be a disaster. I doubt very seriously he'd make plays and you couldn't. And my take is over the next two years you could move him and get a good pick. Like, like Caleb's the kind of guy that he'll have enough tape. Like you can look at Bryce Young and just say he's too small, he's not going to last. It doesn't. Caleb's thick big R moves. I mean Carson Wentz kept getting opportunities. Like Caleb is the kind of guy that Chicago could move off and if, if they didn't go well, Ben's not taking the heat and you could get something for Caleb. I mean Jesus. Especially with guys like Darnold and Baker Mayfield and Geno Smith being reborn.
- [22:21]
John Middlekoff
Yeah. And we're a long way away from that. I'm not even. No, I'm not either. Like this thing's a disaster. But like to me they can't go seven or eight wins. You know, Dennis Allen's a good defensive coordinator. Their defense is going to be solid and they're going to be in closer games. I mean last year as the thing fell apart, it felt like every game was 20 to 30 to nothing at halftime. It was a joke. And then the second half was to me, I couldn't even judge any of his throws because they were completely meaningless. I'm with you. His physical, he can move, he's got a big arm. He play make. But to be a good quarterback. And this is the JJ thing too. Can you play within the confines and the construct of the offense? So some plays one to get rid of the ball. Why does Kyle Shanahan love Brock Purdy? Because he will play in the construct of the offense. Why does Sean Payton love Bo Nix? Because he will do what he tells him to. That's. That was a Russell Wilson thing. Right. I was just before I walked in here, I was flipping around and NFL Network. It must have been from earlier today because it looked like the morning at a lot of camps and they were going camp to camp. And one thing Steve Smith senior was like they were at Steeler camp and they're like, you could tell a lot of these guys were telling us like, God, this guy, you know, because Aaron Rodgers can still sling it. And they're like, the big difference of last year is like, Russell Wilson was just kind of chucking it. This guy can sling it. And there's a difference between just chucking it, which I, I would say Caleb was kind of doing. It's a lot of quarterbacks do when the. When it's off kilter inside an offense. Now, how hard you. Caleb has arm strength.
- [23:51]
Colin Cowherd
Oh, yeah.
- [23:52]
John Middlekoff
But can he play within the pocket? Why did Baker become a really good player? Because the offense, he started operating in it. He's got a good arm, he's on time, he gets rid of the ball. He can move, too, but like a lot of his stuff, like playmaker within the pocket. And that's, I think, a question mark on Caleb because he's got that Russell Wilson instinct to like, I just got to make plays. It's like, you got to stay in there. That's what Ben Johnson built a powerhouse offense, really, by sitting in the pocket and getting rid of the ball.
- [24:17]
Colin Cowherd
Getting rid of the ball fast. No. And this is something to note. I think we talked about this last time. There are not that many head coaches who are gifted play designers and play callers. Andy Reid is. Sean Payton is. Shanahan is. But most head coaches. Jimmy Johnson's a legendary CEO. I mean, that. That's what Jimmy was. Pete Carroll is as a CEO. Mike Tomlin's more of a CEO. A lot of the great coaches are.
- [24:46]
John Middlekoff
Harbaugh brothers are.
- [24:48]
Colin Cowherd
Bill Parcells was. And then you get the occasional. The guy could literally go on the whiteboard. Kevin o', Connell, you know, is a whiteboard guy. Well, Ben Johnson is. And those guys all have one thing in common. They want the quarterback to run their play.
- [25:04]
John Middlekoff
Right.
- [25:04]
Colin Cowherd
Tomlins, not. Tomlin's going to let you do what you want to do. You know, defensive coaches don't. Don't know the lingo, literally. But most of these guys who can call plays like Peyton, they lose their shit if you don't follow directions.
- [25:19]
John Middlekoff
Well, it's not an apples to apples comparison because Russell was an older guy on a huge contract and Caleb is the number one pick on a rookie contract. But I do think there are some parallels. You. You run my offense that I know works or this is not going to work.
- [25:33]
Colin Cowherd
Right.
- [25:33]
John Middlekoff
There are two lanes. You run my offense. And I feel good about you running my offense or you will be gone. So I think those are the only two. There's no, like, oh, he'll morph. Some play like, nah. The offense with Ben Johnson and Sean's, you know, as longer track record. Like his offense, he ain't pivoting. Maybe Ben would try some different stuff because there would be some pressure to make this number one overall pick work. But the way he's talking, the way he's operating, it kind of feels like I got a pretty good idea what I'm doing on offense and this is the way we're doing it.
- [26:07]
Colin Cowherd
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- [26:55]
John Middlekoff
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- [27:27]
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- [28:26]
Angela Ride
I think Democrats have for a very long time allowed Republicans to play them. So essentially Republicans came up with a narrative and Democrats decided to play into that. And that only hurt the Democrats.
- [28:41]
Katie Couric
I'm Katie Couric. Jasmine Crockett, Democratic representative of Texas, is not known for holding back and our recent chat on Next Question is no exception. But when you hear how she got to where she is, her intensity makes perfect sense.
- [28:57]
Angela Ride
It's just hard to imagine a world where you don't have enough people that care to do right by people. And so that same passion that carried me through as a public defender that led me to want to change laws and thinking about the harm that will happen not just to my constituents, but just generally like I carry that weight with me because you've seen it up close. Yeah.
- [29:25]
Katie Couric
Listen to Next Question with me, Katie Couric on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.
- [29:34]
Freddy Prinze Jr.
Party of the summer. WWE SummerSlam is here and Wrestling with Freddie is all over it. We're talking wild matches, big surprises, and our boldest predictions yet. From celebrity showdowns to the chaos inside a steel cage, we're breaking down every match and calling who we think walks out on top. This card is loaded from Cody Rhodes, John Cena, Rhea Ripley and Tiffy, just to name a few. This lineup is ready to tear down the house. We'll give you our unfiltered takes, honest debates and you already know a ton of laughs along the way. We're covering the upsets, the wild returns and the championship moments. Nobody expects we'll get into the matches that steal the show, the storylines that explode and those oh my God, did that just happen? Moments that make SummerSlam legendary. Don't miss it. Listen to Wrestling with Freddie as part of the My Coulter, a podcast network. Find us on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcast.
- [30:25]
Dani Shapiro
Your entire identity has been fabricated. Your beloved brother goes missing without a trace. You discover the depths of your mother's illness, the way it has echoed and reverberated throughout your life, impacting your very legacy Hi, I'm Dani Shapiro, and these are just a few of the profound and powerful stories I'll be mining on our 12th season of Family Secrets. With over 37 million downloads, we continue to be moved and inspired by our guests and their courageously told stories. I can't wait to share 10 powerful new episodes with you. Stories of tangled up identities, concealed truths, and the way in which family secrets almost always need to be told. I hope you'll join me and my extraordinary guests for this new season of Family Secrets. Listen to Family Secrets, Season 12 on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
- [31:31]
Colin Cowherd
I agree. So you and I both agree on this, that the Terry McLaurin situation in Washington is troubling. So I like the Debo acquisition because he's a chess piece and Cliff Kingsbury would be, you know, a play designer, is good with chess pieces. But Debo is not as good consistently or as healthy consistently or as productive consistently as Terry McLaurin. And Terry's been the guy that's been, I mean, because of where he was drafted, Terry hasn't gotten the huge payday yet. In fact, you could argue before Amaran St. Brown's contract that McLaren and Omaron St. Brown were the most underpaid, underpaid weapons in the league. So I actually get Terry McLaurin saying, Guys like I have outperformed my contract fourfold. Debo is a guy that's not going to be a centerpiece, more of a chess piece, struggles to stay healthy. No, no, no, no. This, I'm not, I'm not doing any team favors on this. I kind of side with Terry McLaurin here.
- [32:36]
John Middlekoff
You, Belichick talked about this for a long time, the locker room dynamics and money. I mean, you're dealing with young people who value on their contract relative to their peers. You know, it's hard with NFL contracts because it's convoluted because of signing bonuses and prorated money, but basically, they make a very similar amount of actual cash going into their bank account, week one through 17 this year. Debo and Terry McLaren. Last time I checked, Terry McLaren had 13 touchdowns last year and was a massive reason that Jaden Daniels became a star. And if you're him, like, what about all the sweat equity when this franchise was a joke? Yes, I was the good guy doing the right thing. You bring in this other guy who is the GM's guy, right, from the 49ers. But he peaked. You know, part of the reason Kyle got rid of him, he's like chubby wide receiver. When you ever hear about that? Like, couldn't stay in shape. Got Moody's asked for trades before, now he comes and we're making similar money. These are human beings. Right. I totally understand. Like, that's not really. I feel like a part of the reporting. It's not like. And Terry would come out and say I'm jealous or angry because. But you can't tell me that didn't play a part. You think I'm going to make the same amount of money as this guy? You know, we're both in contract years, yet I, this is my team, which I've been here from day one. You just bring in this guy. I also wonder if it showed him like what this administration, they weren't my people. So I better be pretty careful now. They're going to want me to lay it on the line now. But what if I get hurt and then I can't get a contract after this? They don't care. They'll just move on. Because wide receivers, this isn't, you know, tackle or defensive end, it's not, it's not a very. It's a pretty easy position to replace. Even if Debo fails. They could just draft a guy next year in the first round or the second round or hit on a guy in the fourth round. Who knows, maybe McCaffrey's brother becomes a 50 catch guy. It's an easy. You could argue it's the easiest position now to find.
- [34:21]
Colin Cowherd
Oh, I can name off the top of my head the Tank Dells and the Puka Nakuas and the Amaran st. Browns. Rounds 4, 5 Jennings in San Francisco's I think a seventh round guy. Wide receivers easily now, now it can be the most inflammable and bustable first round pick because they come in, you know, it's an ego position they come in in the first round. But by and large it's, I, I just, I, I look at Terry McLaurin and I try, I try to personalize it and I'm thinking he's been a good guy, he's been productive. He was the star. He is to, to a large degree is the one thing you could build Jayden Daniels around. Not the O line of the run game or tight end. I think you have to take care of them. And for the record, I wouldn't have said this 10 years ago, but you can pay two weapons now and they're not paying a running back big money or a tight end like 10 years ago. The money was dispersed often more on the defense than offense. In New England, it was. I mean, Brady was taking cuts in the NFL. Now the Rams, like the Rams, the Chiefs, they pay, like, one defensive player. So I'm okay paying two weapons. I'm okay with T. Higgins and Jamar Chase. I'm okay with it.
- [35:36]
John Middlekoff
Well, imagine if you're Terry, too. So you look around and you go, listen, I'm not even comparing myself to Jamar Chase or CD Lamb or Justin Jefferson. But let's go. DK Metcalf. The next year, guys who, early on in his career had the greatest start ever. Last couple of years have been weird. The guy gets penalties every game. And Seattle was like, yeah, we're kind of out of this business. I know. He said he asked for a trade. I think they were ready to pivot, right? And he goes, well, he just gets $150 million and 60, $70 million in guaranteed. And he's a question mark of like, can you corral this guy? He's like a better version of some of these crazy guys. I am everything you would want. Character. Check all these boxes. And I produce, and I can't get. You guys won't even offer me anything. So I. They want him. And I. It's the NFL. It's cutthroat. I totally understand it. But I think they want him just to play this season on the $15 million and then evaluate after that. Now, this is. This isn't the NBA, right? When these guys ask for trades, like, you don't just. He's gone. Like, that's not how they operate. And I think these guys know now that they'll get fined and they can't take them back, so they show up. So they don't get $50,000 a day, but they don't really have to do anything. But is it worth having this guy who's kind of the heartbeat of your. One of the heartbeats being mad, in a weird mood, like, the expectations for Washington. This is why it's hard. And all these coaches say, what happened last year is kind of irrelevant this year because guys want to get paid. Guys got injured. Some guys are gone. Like, every team is. They had nothing but good vibes last year. Now this year, it's like, yeah, no.
- [37:08]
Colin Cowherd
And the other thing is, this is not the NBA, where it's hard to name a player whose career was ended because of an injury. It's the same in baseball, outside of pitchers and arms. I mean, baseball careers can last forever. In football, it's just one shot to the knee, and you're not the same wide receiver. So like, I get the psychology of McLaurin. Like, bro, I'm taking. I take hits at practice like it could. I can. We can all name 10 pro football careers that have been ended early because of injuries. It doesn't happen in basketball and baseball or hockey as much. So I get McLaurin's. There's a certain insecurity about football players. I get why they want to get paid totally.
- [37:49]
John Middlekoff
And I think they see it at training camp and we're numb to it as fans and coaches and GMs don't care. But you see guys every single day. So and so shattered his leg, so and so ripped his Achilles. A lot of times it's like the 75th man. So no one cares. Those players are standing there right in that drill and see the cart come out and they knew that guy. Hell, it might be their buddy. They might have been eating lunch with them. It was on the practice squad. They've been hanging out with him for a couple of years. They see that cart leaving with his helmet, they go, his career could be over. And then a couple of days later, he's waived, injured. And so for every time that we see. Well, and because I always say this, most good players see the majority of their contract, like Russell Wilson is kind of an outlier. If you look at the landscape of the league, all the top players, because we haven't had catastrophic injury to a lot of the top players in recent years, they are seeing the all the guaranteed money and the non guaranteed money of their contract. But it's just I wouldn't take that risk if I were any of these guys either because all it takes is one guy falling into you and your career's done. Or you're just never the same. And all of a sudden you go from a $20 million player to a veteran minimum guy.
- [38:54]
Colin Cowherd
So I don't feel the same with Micah Parsons, who has a year left on the contract. He's been noisier. He's been less consistent. I think Terry McLaurin is, there's an argument, the most underpaid player in the league via vis a vis production. Michael Parsons is a very good player. I talked about this a year ago. I was team trade Micah Parsons. Just forget the rest of the league, forget the rest of the nfc. To catch up to Philadelphia, you need about four more really good players. And Micah could have fetched you probably a first and a third and maybe a fifth. I mean, who knows edge rushers? I don't. I think Micah because He's on the if Micah played for the Jacksonville Jaguars, I don't think he would be discussed as often as he is. I think he's really, really good. He's not Myles Garrett. I don't think he's Max Crosby. He's probably better than Hendrickson against the run. He's a very, very good player. No showed in playoff games. I've seen a manhandled gobbled up a few times. I like him a lot but I would have moved him. I would have had no problem. I would have moved him for picks because I think CD and Dak, if you're going to pay Dak that you got to give him a weapon. So my take is I'm not Team Micah. I, my take is I would have moved him. I would not make him the highest paid guy for the next six months in the league. I don't, I, I, I don't think he's that am I wrong? He's to me, he's a splash player. There are moments he's unbelievable. But I also watch cowboy games where he's ineffective and disappears against really good offensive lines.
- [40:29]
John Middlekoff
Yeah, I mean I would take a healthy version of miles Garrett. The three guys that got paid, T.J. watt and Max Crosby over him. Now, relative to the Cowboys. If you are going to trade him, you have to do it before the draft. It doesn't help you now. It's, you know, remember when the Raiders did it with Khalil Mack? It just derailed them for a couple years. So it's too late. You know that, that, that new podcast, the Volume? Did you, are you a Bravo guy? Have you ever seen Wes in action for.
- [40:55]
Colin Cowherd
Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
- [40:57]
John Middlekoff
So it's I, I watch a lot of it with my wife. Obviously. It's, they got a big, these shows I was Googling do like 2 million people watching the Summer House. Stephen Colbert would sell his left leg to do the numbers that these shows are. I mean they are huge, very popular shows. But because there's a lot of drama, a lot going on, women watch it, bring their men in. A lot of people watch these shows and know what's going on. That has become Jerry Jones, the Dallas Cowboys. They've become a Bravo reality television show and they got a lot of people paying attention. And Jerry's comments, he does, he feels like he's slipping pretty hard. I feel like these last couple of years he's making this situation listen, these contract negotiations are not easy. We were talking. I get the league's making a lot of Money. It's still a lot of money for players that can get it. Just production can fall. Things change faster in football than the other sports, right? Guy falls off a cliff and you're like, God, he's 28 and you know, all of a sudden Todd Gurley's out of the league. Things happen weird in football. So I always understand for the front office view is like, should we do this? Like, these are tough conversations unless you're like Patrick Mahomes or Josh Allen. But Jerry makes this way worse because he think about all these other negotiations. I gave the Browns a lot of credit. Remember Miles Garrett came to the Super Bowl. He's like, I want out. Trade me. And then Jim, he's like, clutch was like, I want a meeting with Jimmy Haslam. Jimmy's like, I'm not only am I not meeting talk to my gm. Couple days later he signed and it's just over TJ Watts like, I need more money. A month later, he's got paid. The. The. The new administration, spy tech and Pete Carroll. You're like, God, they're going to like Max Crosby. Even though I think probably time to reset, trade them. Boom. They just pay him nothing. This is just it. This is the Cowboys, man. They. They can't. And people are like, jerry loves himself in the headlines. I think we're past that point. The Cowboys are always in the headlines. Like they're the Dallas Cowboys.
- [42:48]
Colin Cowherd
This Jerry's.
- [42:49]
John Middlekoff
I think Jerry's literally kind of just slipping.
- [42:52]
Colin Cowherd
I. It's getting to be. It feels like the old Al Davis Raiders where a lot of his like stories are weird. Like he. He'll start rambling and there was always a point to him. But over the last couple years, he'll go off into these tangents and stories and I'm like, bro, I don't know where you're going, but this fishing trip, let me off the boat. Cause you're not reeling me in on this thing. Like, I don't get it. And I think the mic of thing's just been misplayed. And I did an essay on it a couple of weeks ago is that it's like trying to take the keys away from grandpa. It's like. I mean, it's. And I'm not being mean spirited. It's just we all. You get into 80s and you have a big wild life of travel and partying. And I just. I think the Cowboys are in a really, really tenuous spot.
- [43:40]
John Middlekoff
Well, it's getting pretty ugly. Clearly with Micah's agent, Jerry won't talk to him, because back in Jerry's heyday, he could just talk to the player and get deals done, and the agents weren't as big of a. An issue beside a couple players here and there. I mean, I saw a story recently that when he signed Deion Sanders, he dealt with Deion Sanders. And I'm sorry, Jerry. Like, it sucks. I don't. I don't. Most of these people don't want to deal with these agents. It's part of the deal. When you want to sign some of these players, you got to sign. Call David Mulgetta or Drew Rosenaus. And Jerry just thinks he can go right to Micah. And it's made it way worse than, like you said, if you watch some of these clips of Jerry 20 years ago, it was kind of like when. When Al was slipping. If you watch clips on NFL Network of Al Davis in the 80s talking about his team, you know, it was like, God, this guy's really impressive, you know, because. Because they were. They. You know, Jerry was different than Al. I'd say I was probably felt a little more academic than Jerry and a football guy. Jerry's a little more of a gunsling and businessman. But they are not the same in terms of, like, Al. Toward the end, it got really ugly. The difference is the Raiders, the NFL hadn't quite taken off like a rocket ship with the money. So, like, Al literally didn't have cash. Sometimes he had to wait for them to be. Jerry has the money. Jerry's just playing hardball. He's very stubborn and he's old, but he is, like a lot of people point out, sneaky, a little cheap, doesn't spend the amount of cash as some of these teams. Because if you think about it, when Jerry got in the league, money even then was a little tighter, definitely, than it is now. But people will tell you in the league, well, it's like, look, Jerry's got a $200 million yacht, but he won't buy some players. Then he'll blame the cap space. It's like, look at. Look at Jeffrey Lurie. You can manipulate it so it's whether they don't want to. It's whether they're not capable of doing it because they're not on the forefront of the cap capabilities. I don't know. But they do feel a little. A little closer to, like, the. The way we talk about the Browns and the way we used to talk about the Raiders than the way they get discussed sometimes because of their brand a little bit. Let's face it. Like, the Genie Bus and Bus Family Lakers up until the last couple of years, especially now that it's over with the new ownership. But mom and Pop Shop but this guy's old. It's like Stephen, no one's listening to him. Just kind of a shit show. Colin this whole thing is to me you got a first time head coach that no one would have hired as their offensive coordinator. Think about that. When Brian Schottenheimer, if he was fired with Mike McCarthy got an offensive coordinator job. And the answer is no because he hadn't got one in years. So he wasn't going to get one now. And now he's your head coach. Which and I'm not trying to belittle the guy, I mean he comes from football royalty. Like he's. Maybe he'll be okay, but this is not an easy first job. Danner Ask those guys that tried to coach in the 2000s without. It's hard.
- [46:23]
Colin Cowherd
The so this happened before I left but I thought it was interesting. So Mike Brown's the old owner of the Bengals and he kind of lashed out and said, you know the Trey Hendrickson stuff, you know, he goes a lot of media makes good points but a lot of media is just talking. And I was thinking about it as I was flying from Rhode island back to Chicago tonight. It is hard to have an A level quarterback and miss the playoffs. 14 of the 32 teams make it. So 40% of the league makes it. Joe Burrow, there's an argument was the most efficient quarterback in the league last year. It's much more than Mahomes. So there was an argument on a week to week basis just efficiency quarterback rating. Burrow was the best quarterback in the league last year. Now think about this. In an offensive league and they didn't make the playoffs, they didn't make it. That's almost John impossible in the NFL in 20, 24, 25, if your quarterback, I mean it's. You don't even have to have a great quarterback. You can have a quarterback having a great year. Sam Darnold, you're going to win 13, 12, 13, 14 games. They didn't make the playoffs. And the reason they didn't make the playoffs. So you say, well it's the coach. Well then fire him. Well they won't do that because you'd have to pay out a couple of years. The contract is as we. So Trey Hendrickson, they literally, I think they're 32nd in quarterback pressures without Trey Hendrickson. Like he is their pass rush and they're, I mean he's it. He's the pass rush and they're, I mean listen, Philadelphia can get pressure on the quarterback with or without Jalen Carter. Jalen Carter is the game changer. He's like 1 of 1. His body type, his quickness. Hendrickson's not great against the run, but he is their pass rush. But this is like the fourth straight year. There's a contract squabble here. There's, there's third straight year. Do you think if Cincinnati doesn't make the playoffs again and, and, and we'll give Burrow another great year because he's great player. Do you think Burrow would just say just go scorched earth and say. Because I do. I think, I think Joe is bright, self aware. You're starting to see him now do stuff in Paris in the season. He is so frustrated with the organization. He gets away from it. Like he goes abroad, he's not going to stay in Ohio. I think if they, I think they're the fascinating team. If Cincinnati misses the playoffs, I think Joe Barone is representatives may get ugly.
- [49:04]
John Middlekoff
The problem is we've seen how Mike Brown operates in that scenario. He just tells you to kick rocks. He did it with Carson Palmer. He's done it this offseason. He's done it in years past. I think they like the Bears last year it's like you should have fired Eber Flush. You could have hired Mike Vrabel and you're probably a playoff team. And Caleb no. 1 we're not even talking about. It was just solid, right? Just would have worked. And this off season the Chargers went through this forever. It's like Anthony Lynn, Mike McCoy, Brandon Staley says hire a real coach. What do they finally do? Jim Harbaugh. Who does everyone bought stock in for the last two years? The Chargers. Why? Because they got a real coach and this is a team. Imagine if they had fired Zach Taylor last year. Like obviously the Bears being in Chicago is a hard job to pass up, especially if they're going to pay you a lot of money. But to coach Joe Burrow, I mean, I'm sorry, like you're kind of remembered on wins and losses. Not just like, well, I coached the Bears. Well, if you lost, no one cares. Right? No one's really talking about Matt Nagy. Right? He would rather coach Joe Burrow than Mitch Trubisky. So does, do they get Ben Johnson? Does Mike Vrabel like hey, I want that job over Drake. It's Joe Burrow. So I, I think that it's hard to overcome this when you hire cheap coaches. And that's kind of, listen, Zach Taylor's probably a nice guy and you know, solid NFL mind, but we're not talking Sean McVeigh, Kyle Shannon, he's not super dynamic. The organization isn't super dynamic. But you can overcome that. Like no one ever said that about the Chargers till they got Jim Harbaugh. And then they said Jim Harbaugh said to listen, but you want me, I need X, Y and Z. Now they're paying big money for all these people and you feel good about it.
- [50:34]
Colin Cowherd
But the difference is the LA market and the deal that Dean Spanos has. You know, like the dollar a year lease is they are swimming in cash because the LA market drives so much revenue, Cincinnati doesn't. Their game day revenue is near the bottom of the league. So Brown won't pay 15 million for a coach and 24 million for a staff. I don't think they'll pay half that. Whereas Spanos can go, listen, so far is a bank. So far is unbelievable.
- [51:05]
John Middlekoff
If they won't, Joe Burrow's got to ask out then soon because you know, or their team's good enough, they can overcome it. But if that's the case, they go nine and eight and they miss it again, it's clear their coaching staff sucks. They fire them and then next year, whoever the hot guy is, they end up with a third tier guy. It's like you got to get out because this is, we've seen this song and dance. I saw Antonio Gates pointed, Philip Rivers, let's face it, I mean they didn't exactly have the greatest coaches. A lot of their, a lot of their prime. I mean can you imagine if those two guys would have had a Sean McVeigh, a Kyle Shanahan, a Kevin O', Connell, who, who knows the way we talk about that run of like I remember those four out of the last seven years the Chargers have been in the championship game and made a couple Super Bowls. And that's the difference of just like oh, that one time Joe Burrow made the super bowl or he's going competing to go to the super bowl every single year. So you would have to short the Browns or excuse me, the Bengals because usually an owner, he old guy like Jerry. I've known a lot of older businessmen that usually don't become more open minded in their mid-70s. That's not how it works. So this is not changing with the Brown family.
- [52:09]
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- [53:09]
Angela Ride
I think Democrats have for a very long time allowed Republicans to play them. So essentially Republicans came up with a narrative and Democrats decided to play into that. And that only hurt the Democrats.
- [53:23]
Katie Couric
I'm Katie Couric. Jasmine Crockett, Democratic representative of Texas, is not known for holding back and our recent chat on Next Question is no exception. But when you hear how she got to where she is, her intensity makes perfect sense.
- [53:40]
Angela Ride
It's just hard to imagine a world where you don't have enough people that care to do right by people. And so that same passion that carried me through as a public defender that led me to want to change laws and thinking about the harm that will happen not just to my constituents, but just generally. Like I carry that weight with me.
- [54:05]
Katie Couric
Because you've seen it up close. Yeah, Listen to Next Question with me, Katie Couric on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.
- [54:16]
Freddy Prinze Jr.
It's the biggest party of the summer. WWE SummerSlam is here and wrestling with Freddie is all over it. We're talking wild matches, big surprises, and our boldest predictions yet. From celebrity showdowns to the chaos inside a steel cage, we're breaking down every match and calling who we think walks out on top. This card is loaded from Cody Rhodes, John Cena, Rhea, Ripley and Tiffy, just to name a few. This lineup is ready to tear down the House. We'll give you our unfiltered takes, honest debates, and, you already know, a ton of laughs along the way. We're covering the upsets, the wild returns and the championship moments. Nobody expects we'll get into the matches that steal the show, the storylines that explode and those, oh my God, did that just happen? Moments that make SummerSlam legendary. Don't miss it. Listen to Wrestling with Freddie as part of the My Coultera Podcast network. Find us on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
- [55:08]
Dani Shapiro
Your entire identity has been fabricated. Your beloved brother goes missing without a trace. You discover the depths of your mother's illness, the way it has echoed and reverberated throughout your life, impacting your very legacy. Hi, I'm Danny Shapiro and these are just a few of the profound and powerful stories I'll be mining on our 12th season of Family Secrets. With over 37 million downloads, we continue to be moved and inspired by our guests and their courageously told stories. I can't wait to share 10 powerful new episodes with you. Stories of tangled up identities, concealed truths, and the way in which family secrets almost always need to be told. I hope you'll join me and my extraordinary guests for this new season of Family Secrets. Listen to Family Secrets, Season 12 on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.
- [56:10]
Colin Cowherd
And now for our next segment, whiskey business. Yes, whiskey business. Brought to you by Green River Whiskey, the official whiskey of the Colin Coward podcast. By the way, the. Do you watch the hall of Fame ceremonies?
- [56:22]
John Middlekoff
I just saw clip. I used to watch it a lot. They've kind of changed the sequence of the week because remember they used to have the game on Sunday and the thing would be Saturday night. Now they play the game on Thursday and they do it like in the morning. But I saw a lot of clips of Antonio Brown and Sterling and Shannon and. And Jared Allen who has like some weird disease. Did you see that? And it changed his diet. He looks slim.
- [56:44]
Colin Cowherd
But by the way, next year's class, Drew Brees, Larry Fitzgerald in Julian Edelman's probably not a first ballot guy.
- [56:54]
John Middlekoff
I don't know if he's even going to make it. Yeah, one of the great all time winners. But I think that I've seen his numbers like, compared to like Wes Welker. It's going to be hard to overcome.
- [57:03]
Colin Cowherd
Yeah, Philip Rivers probably won't but Phillips, Phillips, fascinating because. And Matt Hasselbeck had some of this. There were moments they looked like hall of Famers, but so much of it. But Eli had moments. He didn't look anything resembling a Hall of Famer, but he had iconic moments. Whereas Philip was really hall of Fame productive. But he didn't have anything in January or February that was memorable. And so yeah, you know, the hall of Fame. I think one of the cooler stories is Antonio Gates, the first undrafted hall of Famer. I believe that there was a story that, you know, Philip Rivers was talking about, for those who didn't see it, where Philip basically said Antonio Gates in the playbook. No matter what the play was, if Antonio Gates was covered one on one, that go to Antonio Gates usurped any other play. There was like if you looked at the coverage and, and they put like one guy on him, it was like were going to Antonio Gates. It did not matter. The time, the situation, the field position. It's funny, I remember watching Antonio Gates rookie year and I've never been a fantasy football player, so nobody had him on their team. And I've told this story before. You can really see great fast. Eugene Robinson went to Colgate. I was in Cheney, Washington at the camp, I had a program in my hand. And he's lighting up receivers for the Seahawks, lighting them up. And we're all, who's the guy from Colgate? Eugene Robinson. That's how I felt about Antonio Gates. Like I remember watching him as a rookie and going undrafted. I don't even understand this. Do you remember the early recollections of Antonio Gates?
- [58:56]
John Middlekoff
I saw him a decent amount toward the latter half of their career in the mid, like 2013, 14, 15, when they play the Raiders. But Colin, he just made the hall of Fame. He did not play college football. I mean he did not play called that. That will never happen again. Jordan Mylotta, who's making, I mean, how many people have ever made the Pro Bowl? Made the NFL? We, we've had guys make the NFL, rugby guys, you know, wrestlers that didn't play college football. But to make a Pro bowl and not play college football, you know, my lot is a little unique. Rugby guy from Australia, Antonio Gates, basketball player. Physically, obviously both these guys are really gifted. I do think that Antonio Gates, a lot of people I remember when I was in the NFL we used to kind of like run studies and scout like six, three to six, five power forwards. Typically smaller schools, you know, maybe like a Kent State, a New Mexico, that's where Antonio Gates went, but New Mexico State, whatever and try to find a body type like that that could translate. And it only existed because of him. Like if he hadn't existed, no one would have thought like that. And let's face it, there doesn't really exist since, you know, Jimmy, Jimmy Graham at Miami, I think he played his senior year if I remember correctly. But he was you know, starter on the basketball team. But there are some guys like Julius Peppers did both. Right. Some guys do both, like Donovan McNabb do both. This guy did not play college football at all.
- [60:21]
Colin Cowherd
Yeah.
- [60:21]
John Middlekoff
And then to go to the NFL and play tight end. And let's, let's face it, when Antonio Gates came into the league in 2003, 3. It was a little more violent and crazy than it is now in terms of the rules, hitting guys. So it was. You weren't running across the middle willy nilly going, they can't touch me.
- [60:41]
Colin Cowherd
No. But I do remember the 2004 season is when he really popped. Cause he came in as like a third or fourth string guy and. But I've always been a Charger fan. So back Dan Fouts. So like if you're a West coast guy, you were always a Charger fan. Wes Chandler, John Jefferson, Dan Fouts, Chuck Muncie, the great offensive lines. So I've always watched the. I've been kind of a Charger fan and I think everybody in the west coast was because of the uniforms, the way they play. They were always great offensively, it just didn't matter. Herbert, Philip Rivers, Fouts, they've been good offense like Oregon Football, they've always been fun offensively. And I can remember the 2004 season when he would, he was like, like had a dozen touchdowns and people started saying undrafted. And you're like. And then you started, you know, that's. Again, it's 20 some years ago. But I, my, I think I looked, I looked at drafting different when I saw Antonio Gates in 2004, 2005. It really does make you realize what a crapshoot this league is. Half the players that are playing in this league. I think that, I think it's like 40% are undrafted that are on rosters right now. And that's one of the things about football that I think is so incredibly relatable. In the NBA draft you get to like 16th pick, you're out of players. Major League baseball, you have 40 rounds. You can do 40 rounds of drafting. But most of your great players are the first two or three rounds. What's remarkable, the best player ever is Tom Brady's a six rounder. You and I could write. If we went back and forth for the next 10 minutes, we could name great players from the third round on. Every fan could. You could name 50 of them. And that's. And I, and I think Antonio Gates, if you go back to his career, it really does. I mean, Joe Montana's, I think was a third round pick. You have Brady sixth, Kurt Warner and Romo undrafted, Brock Purdy seventh. So I think, I do think when I think of Antonio Gates, I think of it sort of the beauty of pro football in this country is it is there's a lot of plumbers in this league. There's a lot of dudes that just started late, you know, like golf and baseball and hockey. You have to start early. It is a skill that is developed over years, decades of practice. If you play basketball. A lot of those skills work in football. Run, jump, catch for a tight end.
- [63:13]
John Middlekoff
Yeah, well, it's why you find people in both if they hit the genetic. You got to have the special genetics to make the pros. But you can meet fine football players. A guy that, yeah, I played in high school, I skipped it to play basketball at a small school and then I made the hall of fame in the NFL. One thing I learned going to camps once I left the NFL and started doing this and look at it more from an, you know, from talking about it and way fans think, you realize like I don't waste much time when I was going to camps and specifically doing the Niners and Raiders stuff like talking about the fourth, fifth, sixth, seventh round. Because every single year those guys get cut and get beat out by undrafted free agents. Hell, the second rounders, a lot of times they don't get cut, but they are lower on the depth chart than the six rounder at their same position because he was better. And two years later that six rounder is starting. That second rounder is not only a backup, a year later he'll be cut and then we're a year away from that guy making the Pro Bowl. That six rounder has got a big extension and that is the NFL training camp that undrafted free agents, six seventh rounders there. There is a meritocracy and it's called be a good player and you will move up at rapid speed. You are on scholarship a little as a higher. Yes, like a top 75.
- [64:23]
Colin Cowherd
Same in baseball. If you're, if you're a first or a second round pick in baseball, you'll make the roster. Like they'll put you.
- [64:29]
John Middlekoff
It doesn't guarantee you any playing time. It doesn't guarantee you a starting spot. It does not guarantee you dressing on game days. So I think the one thing that separates in football in a lot of positions, toughness and mental toughness because physically, you know, I think Jimmy Johnson always had. The thing is fatigue makes cowards of us all. As you get tired you stop thinking. So the guys that can think as they're tired, truly separate in football training camp, all these camps, it's hot. They're throwing. You know, for a lot of these guys that come from some of these offenses and defenses in college, you know, this isn't. Most guys aren't running Nick Saban scheme. It's semi basic at a lot of these college. So they get there, it's intense and these coaches do not lay off the gas pedal on you. So it over a lot of guys, it's not there physically. They can't play in the NFL. It's mentally, it's too much. They don't know what's going on. And then it impacts physically because they start playing slow. It's like you're going to get, you can't, we can't put you on the field. And then they just start getting lapped. Because the six rounder, this is a purdy example, just because he's a late round pick can handle it. Right? So he can handle it mentally. So that if you can handle it mentally because you're getting drafted, you have some physical skill that gives you a huge starting spot. So to me, the mental edge on players is something it's. We don't talk about that much because how do you quantify it? You know, coaches always say like, this guy's smart, but what does that really mean? It means a lot. You know, I remember assistant coaches used to tell me it's so easy for everyone in the scouting department to go, hey, listen, this guy's got all the skills. He's an idiot, not even a great guy. But coach him up and then he's like, we draft him and then you guys just hang out in the cafeteria like, how's it going, Coach? And I have to deal with them every day and he's got no clue what's going on. And that's where I think the value of smart guys. When you get the talented smart guy like an Aaron Donald, a Trent Williams, a Travis Kelsey, like you got, the guy's going to dominate, right?
- [66:22]
Colin Cowherd
Yeah. I also think, you know, basketball increasingly in my life has become positionless. Like LeBron could play 0.23 or 4 in his prime, right? Like it's become, I mean, Jokic is the best passing big man, you know.
- [66:36]
John Middlekoff
Since maybe Bill Walton couldn't LeBron play center in 2025.
- [66:40]
Colin Cowherd
I mean, Jokic is a point center. That didn't exist 10 years ago. Nobody talked about point centers. But football is position specific. Guards can't play Tight end. Tom Brady could play one position. That is it. And he's the greatest player in the history of the league. Lawrence Taylor could maybe have played tight end. He's the best defensive player. But Reggie White, again, probably wouldn't have been a great tackle. Offensive tackle, he's the best defensive tackle of all time. And so it's specific. And I think, I think one of the things you find and Jimmy Johnson always talked about this is like in football, I'm always very reluctant on. He's just a great athlete. He just loves playing football. And my take, what does he do? Well, like it is, it's not positionless. It's like baseball to a large degree. You can be a utility infielder, but generally a first baseman's a third baseman with no range, right? A third baseman needs range and more athletic ability. That's why Mark McGuire ends over like a DH or he can play first base. The center fielder and the shortstop are your great athletes. And I think what football does, I think they're really good drafters. They fought even receivers. Now, is he a boundary guy? Is he a slot guy? You can't just draft a guy because it's like. And I know a lot of teams play zone. I guess my whole point is what makes football difficult to draft is that you have to have a specific skill. You have to match the coaching staff, you have to stay healthy. There's a lot of things. That's why they're so go look. On every team in this league, you have 55 guys. Take the Eagles out. There's about four really great players on every team. That's about, even the Rams. Stafford's great, Puka's great, verse is great.
- [68:38]
John Middlekoff
And there's a lot of good.
- [68:40]
Colin Cowherd
There's a lot of good.
- [68:43]
John Middlekoff
I also think, like, let's say we do this podcast and by the end of tomorrow, 250,000 people have listened, watched, right? Consumed this podcast. That's a concrete number, easy to evaluate if you want to sell it to advertisers. It's very black and white. Or in football, let's say I have, I'm a prospect and I play at UCLA and I get 11 sacks. But seven of them came against UC Davis, against New Mexico and against the worst team in the Big Ten. And I had no sacks when we played Oregon, Ohio State, Michigan, Penn State. It's like, well, you know, on all the, on all the lists, this guy was one of the highest productive guys. Double digit sack guys, Power four conference, Big Ten. It's like, well, actually you know, let's really dive into this. You know, Khalil Mack played at a small school, but he played Ohio State his senior year at three sacks against Taylor Decker. So it was like, I don't really know. Obviously he's got these physical attributes, but I watched him do it against that team. And the other thing is there are, you know, in any business, the humans play a role, but when you acquire a company, a lot of times it's a product. It's something that's already kind of like a built in infrastructure that aren't always human dependent. Especially now with technology. Right. Where in football it's never going to change. As long as football, you're acquiring a human being. So it's like, how can he handle it? How, like physically is he tough enough? Because you can get by. This happens in high school a lot. It's while I think a lot of these coaches, like, I'm not giving a high school player $1 million. Like I'm at Georgia, Ohio State, like, okay, Jeremiah Smith. But there's been a lot of Jeremiah Smith that everyone thought was Jeremiah Smith. And he gets to college, you never hear of him. And he never gets off the bench because this guy's so much better than everyone. He's playing in high school, right. So it's like once you come to the NFL, like everyone's a pro. So then practice, like you're just practicing. You're just, let's say you play, you get a first round pick for the Seattle Seahawks or the Arizona Cardinals, like, practice, you're playing against the best players ever, just in practice, let alone the games that are about to come. So I think it can really expose you. This is why drafting is so difficult, because you're dealing with humans with all these variables that unlike all these other industries. Jimmy Haslam gave a big press conference like earlier this week and he even said, like, you know, in all my other industries, like if I want to hire a guy, I can just hire him. If I, if something's going wrong, it's very easy to figure out what A lot of unknowns in this business. Like, was it the play call? Is this guy dumb? Is this guy not fast enough? You know, you just don't know, like the industry we're in, it's, it's pretty black and white. I'd say football has the most variables even of all the sports.
- [71:25]
Colin Cowherd
Yeah, I mean, remember, remember the kid from Clemson, Simmons, that got drafted a few years ago? I think Steve Keim drafted him.
- [71:32]
John Middlekoff
Isaiah was a tall kind of hybrid Linebacker.
- [71:34]
Colin Cowherd
And he was just like, holy God. He was a playmaker. And then he goes to the pros and you're like, what is he? Yet Honey Badger, who wasn't fast enough to be a lockdown corner. Honey Badger had a. What is he exactly? But his instincts were so insane that Honey Badger becomes a great player. And Simmons, I always feel like left too much on the cutting room floor. There's just not enough. And I think those are two great players where a lot of people, because of the drug stuff with Honey Badger, were off him. And I remember hearing from a assistant coach at LSU who said, he is the most instinctive player I've ever seen. I remember watching LSU games with him. If there was a fumble, he was on it. He was literally by any turnover, any tackle. And I'm like, Jesus, this kid couldn't. And so Steve Keim told me that he goes, we thought he had the best instincts we'd ever seen, so. But Simmons came in and it felt a little bit of not positionless, but you weren't quite sure. And I always felt he disappointed me. And that's a prime example of football. Like, unless you have incredible instincts, you can be big, strong and fast, but you just don't fit a system.
- [72:51]
John Middlekoff
Well, think about this. It's a little dated because he got kicked out of LSU for weed, but at the time it was a big deal. He got kicked off the program. He did not play his junior year, thought about coming back, remember? And then he goes pro. He gets drafted in the third round and becomes a team captain for the next four teams he's on. And Patrick Peterson, who at the time was like the best player besides Larry Fitzgerald on the. In. Carson Palmer on the Cardinals, like two years in, called Honey Badger the heartbeat of the team. So he becomes the team captain of that team. He becomes a team captain of the Texans for a year, goes to the Chiefs with Andy Mahomes. Kelsey becomes a team captain. I got buddies that were round and the called him like one of their favorite players they'd ever been around. You just. The guy was kicked out of the team and goes on to become. Honestly, it's an incredible story. Like one of the high character leaders of the league that everyone respected. But the Isaiah Simmons thing, I remember texting someone on a really good team and said, what do you think of this guy? They're like, we really dinged him on the toughness. Obviously, physically, he was a freak.
- [73:51]
Colin Cowherd
Freak.
- [73:51]
John Middlekoff
You watch him like, he kind of. We didn't think he was just a hammer. You Know this. He's not playing like who Funga or something down and that. And that's hard to play when you're like this hybrid. Who Funga was, this hybrid guy. What will Hu Funga do? He will kill you.
- [74:05]
Colin Cowherd
Yes.
- [74:06]
John Middlekoff
Why do coaches like Hufanga? Because, like, there's a physicality when you're in space, you're either going to be, you better be a lockdown guy or you kind of got to have a little Cam Chancellor to you, you know, to play in that roaming hybrid linebacker, safety.
- [74:19]
Colin Cowherd
Think about, think about Chase Young. I would have bet any amount of money, 10 year old pro. Where'd he go? I mean, Max Crosby is what we thought Chase Young would be. So, I mean, yeah, I mean, again, Clowney, a guy that. Some of these guys are so big in high school, like they just engulf players. They get a five star, they go to a big school, they're surrounded by other great players and they are splash players. Clowney made highlight plays in South Carolina. He's a splash player. But they're physically, they grow up faster than other kids. They're unblockable. The Andy Katzenmoyer, legendary, like one of the best high school players ever. They're just too big to guard. And then they go to college and they're still really good college players, but they're surrounded by five star guys and really good guys. So they get, you know, singularly blocked and they have some splash plays, but. And then they go.
- [75:13]
John Middlekoff
I thought Najee Harris, who was, when I was living in the Bay Area, was, I think the number one high school recruitment he was in the state of California. Harbaugh wanted him bad. Obviously Saban ended up getting him. He didn't really play at a high level till a senior year in high school. I remember texting someone around the program, they're like, well, he kind of looked like a college guy at 16 years old.
- [75:32]
Colin Cowherd
Yeah.
- [75:32]
John Middlekoff
And you know, I think Harbaugh, I thought it was a little bit of an overpay. Obviously he had the fourth of July incident. But why did Harbaugh sign him? Because he's loved him since, you know, when he tried to sign him at Michigan. I think a lot of you talk to some other people around the league, they're like, yeah, Najee Harris. Not our cup of tea, but Najee Harris, a good example of. In high school, Najee Harris was a grown man playing against high school kids and that's why he went to Alabama.
- [75:55]
Colin Cowherd
When you want to enjoy life's simpler pleasures, reach for green river whiskey. Whether it's rye whiskey or single barrel bourbon, you're getting over a century of craftsmanship packed into every bottle. Hop over to greenriverwhisky.com and discover a legend in a bottle today. All right, John Middlekoff and I, for an hour, we're getting very close. We are getting very, very close to the football season. And I kind of tell you, John, I have played 11 rounds of golf this summer. That's setting a new record for me. And for years and years, my wife would always say, you know, you got to find a hobby. What are you going to do? You're 60, you got to find a hobby at some point. And I'm like, I told her this weekend, I said I was going to learn French, I was going to learn their language. I was going to get into drawing, kind of stick figure drawing. I was going to take a drawing class. And I said, you know what I learned about myself. My hobby has to be moving. I got to be moving. And this weekend I said, I love golf, I love playing golf. I found my hobby. And so my, I think for the last 10 years I've been looking for a hobby. My wife's just been joking over and over. She's like, you keep telling me you, you bought a wine store because you thought it was going to be wine and then it was drawing, then you were going to learn French. I, I'm not addicted, but I think about golf now. The minute I get on a plane to go and hang out, that's what I'm thinking about.
- [77:29]
John Middlekoff
I think it's got a lot of attributes that you would enjoy. One, you can, you can have a cocktail while you're doing it outside, so in the sun. And I do think an underrated part, even if you're playing with someone you don't know that well, you can have really good conversations about a lot of different things. It is a very conversational. It's not, you know, you, you got to get, if you want to work out, you probably got to do a separate of golf. I would not call it much of a physical activity if you're in the cart. Little walking depend on the course. But to me, where the, the social elements, because I'm with you, I love it. But like, I haven't played in three weeks. Like, I don't need to, like, I'm not addicted and I always got to be on the course. I use it as just a vehicle sometimes to get out. But it does bring a social element into my life that I could easily avoid as I just Go. Tunnel vision of work and my wife and not doing much. It gets me outside, gets me. Gets you talking. And it's a couple cocktails usually involved. It's. You rarely have a bad time, especially in the summer. You get a little sweat outside. Enjoy yourself. Maybe a cocktail after, too. Like you pull into the clubhouse or the outside bar.
- [78:30]
Colin Cowherd
Oh, have a cold one. No, it's. I got my group of guys in Rhode island, and I. I just. I always understood why guys liked it. I just didn't have time for it. But I gotta tell you, I. My whole life, I've been looking for a hobby, and I. I found it. And I told my wife, and I told her this yesterday. I said, and, you know, you've been laughing for years that I can't. She. My wife's like, your work's your hobby. You love podcasting. You love doing that. You like reading about sports. And I'm like, yeah, but I need something else. And exercise isn't a hobby. It's just exercise. And I. And I found it. I'm just.
- [79:06]
John Middlekoff
So that's all. That's the only extra hobby you need. That's. That's sports and golf. That's your life.
- [79:13]
Colin Cowherd
And my dogs.
- [79:15]
John Middlekoff
All right, buddy, take it easy. See you soon.
- [79:19]
Dani Shapiro
The volume.
- [79:23]
Katie Couric
On the latest episode of Next Question with me, Katie Couric. I sat down with Jasmine Crockett, Democratic representative of Texas. She's holding down the fort for her party in one of the most conservative states in the union.
- [79:36]
Angela Ride
I think that ultimately who will become the Democratic nominee for president will be someone that has been out there, out there and has shown that they won't allow themselves to be punched and just say thank you like they will punch back.
- [79:49]
Katie Couric
Listen to Next Question with me, Katie Couric on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
- [79:57]
Freddy Prinze Jr.
We're breaking down SummerSlam, the biggest party of the summer on Wrestling with Freddie. From our bold picks to storyline breakdowns, we will discuss who walks out with gold, who shocks the night and which matches steal the show. We call the winners, the upsets and the chaos to expect. Plus whatever swerves nobody saw coming. Listen to Wrestling with Freddy as part of the Mike Kultura podcast network, available on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
- [80:25]
A.J. Jacobs
Let's start with a quick puzzle. The answer is Ken Jennings appearance on the puzzler with A.J. jacobs. The question is, what is the most entertaining listening experience in podcast land? Jeopardy Truthers believe in.
- [80:42]
Freddy Prinze Jr.
I guess they would be conspiracy theorists.
- [80:44]
A.J. Jacobs
That's right.
- [80:45]
John Middlekoff
They give you the answers, and you still blew it.
- [80:47]
A.J. Jacobs
The Puzzler listen on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
- [80:55]
John Middlekoff
Who cares about truth when the lie is more entertaining?
- [80:58]
Angela Ride
Welcome home. I'm Angela Ride, co host of the the Native Land Pod with Andrew Gillum and Tiffany Cross, and we want y' all to survive and thrive in this political moment.
- [81:06]
Colin Cowherd
We're having the same debates that American.
- [81:07]
John Middlekoff
Households are having all over the country.
- [81:09]
Angela Ride
I am terrified that in our rest, we're going to miss the moment. You want me to stop resting? What specifically are you asking me to do? Stay informed and take action.
- [81:20]
Colin Cowherd
Listen to Native Land Pod on the.
- [81:22]
John Middlekoff
Iheartradio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
- [81:27]
Angela Ride
This is an iHeart podcast.