← The Herd with Colin Cowherd
The Herd with Colin Cowherd
Colin Cowherd Podcast Prime Cuts - NBA Teams HAVE To Tank, NBA Players Are TOO Good Now, Crazy Sports Gambling Stories
00:46:42
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- [00:00]
Podcast Host
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- [00:04]
Colin Cowherd
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- [02:00]
Colin Cowherd
Sometimes AT&T business Wireless Connecting changes everything. The volume. Well, John Middelkoff's a busy guy, and John Middelkoff deserves an occasional cocktail and sitting by the pool because living in Arizona, he doesn't get any of those. So Danny Parkins, our guy, is joining us. So one of the topics of the week has been the tanking in the NBA. So I think sometimes you have to take a telescope and flip it. I am pro tanking because here's what we both would agree on. What's happening in America? There's a lot more options. There's a lot of streaming services. There's a lot to watch, TikToks and platforms. We are a distracted nation. And so what I'm about to say, everybody knows over the last 10 years, events do really well. Baseball found this out when they started doing, you know, baseball games in a cornfield, baseball games in Europe, home run derby, World Series actually do really well. It's that minutiae, it's the regular season that hockey, NBA and baseball can struggle. That's why I believe dynasties. I believe the opposite of what Adam Silver does. Football doesn't matter. College and pro football don't matter. It's once a week. World cup doesn't matter. Every four years. Olympics don't matter. But in Monday through Friday sports, long regular season. Now, the David Stern approach works better because a distracted nation isn't tuning in parody. They're not going to tune in parody. So I want. That's my first take. My second take is what makes the NFL great is Mike Vrabel. And the Patriots can spend 270 million and go from unwatchable to the Super Bowl. Now, they got some breaks along the way, and they weren't as good as Seattle. You can't do that in the NBA. I mean, you know, with the Bulls, you can't. You can't trade people. I mean, if, if a franchise is like, listen, we want to get rid of an aging star. And the Bulls are like, oh, love to, but they're young.
- [04:20]
Danny Parkins
They don't.
- [04:20]
Colin Cowherd
They'd have to. They wouldn't know how to cobble together enough players or bring in a third team to get it done. And so the only way to go from bad to good is the Spurs. You tank and get Stefan Castle. You tank and get Wemby. Then you make another because they're very inexpensive for the first several years. You make another couple moves to get your, you know, you're a de' Aaron Fox or you. And all of a sudden you look up and you're like, oh, we go from like 24 wins to 38 to 56. And so I don't know if you can solve tanking outside of taking away draft picks, which seems really punitive since there's only two rounds. And if you're going to make trading impossible, how else do you go? I think Utah's on the precipice of being very interesting in the next year, how they've been awful for three years. So I guess my take is dynasties. We could start with either one. Dynasties actually make Much more sense now than they did in the 70s when we were less distracted. And I'm okay with tanking if the rules currently disallow big sweeping trades for the Wizards to become OKC within two years, which you can't do that now.
- [05:31]
Danny Parkins
Okay. So as always, there's. There's a lot there. Well, let's. Let's park the dynasty thing for maybe a little bit later. We've talked about that a lot in baseball. And like, I agree that the power of dynasties, like the Chiefs became the team that all the NFL Network executives want, and it replaced the Cowboys because they are a dynasty. So you and I are in agreement, and I think the data backs it up as fact, like dynasties work. The trade point is an interesting one because we actually just saw at this deadline, like Washington now has Trey Young and Anthony Davis, like, some of the free agent rules have actually made it where it's easier for you to retain your guys with, you know, the Bird rights and you can go over the cap to sign your own players and things like that. That, like, I think that free agent, like good players leaving in free agency is going to. Is going to decrease, which to your point, makes the draft even more important. But the tanking thing, I don't know how you can say you're okay with what Utah is doing. This is. It's. So we're recording this the night of the All Star Game. They are sitting players in the fourth quarter of games that it is. It is anti competition, it is anti sport. Like the. Is it the biggest deal in the world? Are there. I do think there are bigger problems with the NBA and I'd love to do like a global conversation about all of it with you, but like, I don't know how you can say because like, in this case, it's Utah against Orlando, Utah against Miami, and nobody really cares. But what if it was a team that we did care about? And I would imagine that the 15,000 fans that bought tickets to those games would. Would care about it. And it is a. These are sports, man. It's an entertainment product. Well, you can't have the games mean nothing. They have to mean something.
- [07:25]
Colin Cowherd
But I think the Utah fans who almost have a collegiate feel because it's a smaller NBA market, I think they're in on it. I think they know it. I don't think. I think they go to the games and enjoy it with their friends. But if you ask them, you can get the number 2 pick or the number 14, they would take the number 2. So you can play so you can play the young guys. Compete as much as you can with the young guys. But I mean, Utah's been bad for several years. What's another 12 games or 26 games at the end of the year? I mean, I, you could you. I mean, again, it's only a two round draft. So people say we're going to take, we're going to take draft picks away. Spygate and deflate gate. You only took one pick. If you took 50% of people's picks, okay, we're taking a first round pick, well then that bad team has even less chance to get good.
- [08:13]
Danny Parkins
But don't you think you want, like I want to say, I want to say this before we get any more into it because I've heard a lot of the conversation over the last week because it seems like what happens in our business is we are so football centric and then the super bowl ends and we deconstructed for a day or two and then we immediately pivot to the NBA and we kind of parachute in and we're like, problems with the NBA, whether it's tanking, three point shooting, injuries, load management, like whatever the issue of the day is this year, because of the Utah example, literally, literally sitting players unapologetically in the fourth quarter before the All Star break, we all seized on the tanking thing. You and I have some disagreements here. One thing I do want to say though, amidst all the complaining, the talent is so unbelievable.
- [08:59]
Colin Cowherd
Yes.
- [08:59]
Danny Parkins
Like the league has so many things going for it.
- [09:02]
Colin Cowherd
Yeah.
- [09:03]
Danny Parkins
Like KD and Steph and LeBron not only are still here, they're all still awesome.
- [09:09]
Colin Cowherd
Yeah.
- [09:09]
Danny Parkins
They are ambassadors of the sport. They are advocates for the sport. They love hooping. They're still great players on competitive, varying degrees of competitive teams. Like, you know, I don't know that. I don't, I don't think the Lakers can win a title. I don't think that the warriors can win a title. But they, we are going to see those guys play basketball beyond the regular season into their late 30s, or in LeBron's case, early 40s. It's a miracle. They're unbelievably talented. And I think one of the biggest problems with the sport is actually counterintuitive. And it's that the players have gotten too good. I think they have broken the game. They're so good at shooting threes that it is so easy for them to do it that the sport has become a jump shooting contest. 53, 63, 73 is a game and it makes it Less exciting? Yes, because I like to see them dunk and fly and do the things that I can't dunk. I can hit a three point shot.
- [10:10]
Colin Cowherd
Okay?
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Danny Parkins
So it's. And then that has led to. You've got to defend all over the place.
- [10:16]
Art Manteris
Right.
- [10:17]
Colin Cowherd
So you got to run.
- [10:18]
Danny Parkins
More guys are rupturing their Achilles and then they're more tired so they have to sit.
- [10:22]
Colin Cowherd
You and I agree.
- [10:23]
Danny Parkins
It's all connected together.
- [10:25]
Colin Cowherd
Okay, so you and I agree. I said this last week twice. Every year at this time we bang on the NBA and I and I said playoffs will start, I'll totally be engaged. The game will become much more of a mid range game than a three point game because it becomes get a stop, get a basket and close games late. You just, you get, you. Sometimes you just need a basket. That's why Kawhi Leonard is an irrelevant regular season player. But he's been such a great postseason player because he gets stops and he gets twos.
- [10:53]
Danny Parkins
So,
- [10:57]
Colin Cowherd
so I think I, I don't know if I said this to you, but I said it to somebody of all. I just, I'm watching right now a great documentary. I'm through the first two episodes. There's four. It's called Soul Power. It is a four part documentary on the aba. It is fantastic. I mean, I don't know where they got the video. So much of it I knew because I started watching Sports in late 1971. That's the time Spencer Haywood and the Dr. J. That's why Spencer Haywood and Dr. J are my first two basketball memories. Because I was like 7 years old and I remember seeing Dr. J, who was my first, you know, favorite basketball player. So they have video, apparently the aba. I didn't know this had a huge fight problem. I don't know where they got the video. There must be 20 pieces of video of fist fights. Like it's hockey without the helmets. It's just haymakers, guys laying on the floor like so. But that's where the three point shot came from. But my point has always been, Danny, that basketball was the sport of artistry and culture and sometimes politics. Starting with Spencer Haywood going to the Supreme Court. That was the NFL was corporate. Baseball was the summer sport. You could go have a beer. You didn't care who won. Right. Unless you were a diehard. Basketball was the cool sport. It was the afros, it was the dunking. That's why the ABA became a threat to the NBA. The NBA was overcoached. It was like college basketball. It was overcoached, it was rigid. There was limitations sadly on how many African American players could play the team. And the ABA is like flavor and dunking and threes and a tri colored ball. And it was like, well, that's what we like. Here's the problem with the three. The three has reduced dominant centers with quirky games. Mid range games. If Michael Jordan played Today, he'd shoot 13 threes a game. Do you, outside of the Blazer finals, do you ever remember seeing him shoot a three that mattered in a game or a highlight? We've seen
- [13:01]
Danny Parkins
no.
- [13:02]
Colin Cowherd
I've argued this. We have taken all these art. It's the one sport of artistry. It's the artistry sport and we've taken the artistry out of it. Now outside of Steph, whose game is fundamentally based on the three, we've taken Ant Edwards Wemby to shoot a bunch of threes. Ant is the closest thing to MJ we've had. If you took Kawhi's hand size and anti, you kind of have MJ and I mean ants just. He shoots 11, 10, 9 threes. Wemby too many threes. So if you took the three point line into the bench, you did not have to defend the corner. You could more easily Defend the Arch 3. Those players would move inside. What happens when you have a mid range game? More physicality. Guys aren't chasing people down, they're defending them. Ass on ass, hip on hip, shoulder on shoulder. What do we like about the NBA playoffs? It's physical.
- [13:57]
Art Manteris
It's.
- [13:57]
Colin Cowherd
It's like men battling fans. Get into it. So I think the arc, the three point shot into the bench reduces all these soft, these, these injuries. People are complaining about where the, the, the pace is so fast. Centers are running to the corner. It would become a more physical game. But I think Malice in the palace terrifies the league. And there's something about making the game less physical for a big portion of the regular season. And I agree with you, it's hard and repetitive to watch.
- [14:29]
Danny Parkins
Yeah, the. To me that is so there's. There's the health of the players, there's the tanking, there is load management which, which is caught up in both of them. But to me the biggest issue is the, is the style of play. But again I want to, every time I say it like I, I do want to say I love the game, I respect their talent and the playoffs are amazing. What bothers me a little bit. I think the, the in season tournament was a really interesting idea. We've talked about it before, taken from the Premier League and it's. Guys clearly play harder. There's a trophy on the line, it means something. And I think it will only grow in its relevance here. But what I wish they would have done with it is it. I wish that the midseason, the end season tournament, instead of a different court, we had different rules so we could experiment with some of this stuff. Yeah, like.
- [15:17]
Colin Cowherd
Oh good.
- [15:17]
Danny Parkins
I don't know. Hundred. I don't 100% know if what you just said is correct about eliminating the corner 3 or if like we would just see a lot more like 18 foot jumpers.
- [15:28]
Colin Cowherd
Yeah, I don't know.
- [15:30]
Danny Parkins
I think you're right, but I don't know. So I want to see it like, you know, like I want to see. Would it be better if we had a trapezoidal like international style lane instead of too vertical to force, like more crashing of the boards and put backs and things like that, like more offensive rebounds? I would be very interested in like them. Baseball did it. Yeah, but what people miss about what baseball did. People give Rob Manfred a lot of credit and that's like mostly right. But Rob Manford employed Theo Epstein. Theo Epstein's a genius and he really cares about the game. And when Theo was running the Red Sox and the Cubs, his whole thing was like, how do I exploit the rules to win? It wasn't in the best interest of the sport to strike out more, walk more, hit more home runs. It's boring. But as soon as he got hired by Major League Baseball as a consultant, he tried to start closing those loopholes. More stolen bases, ball in play, more, you know, three batter rules, all those sort of things to like to try to force some action into the game. Pitch clock obviously being the biggest one. It's worked and it's worked. But that wasn't like Rob Manfred's genius. He needed like a basketball person. And so I feel like the, the NBA, they have so much goddamn money and the television contracts are so good that they look around and they're like, well, our playoffs are awesome, our talent is awesome and our money is awesome and all of those things are undeniably true. But do you have like a basketball? Like I'd be hire LeBron when he retires and be like, okay, honestly, what is the best way to improve the on court product? What do you like about high school ball, college ball, international ball, the NBA? You're a historian of the game. The old NBA, like what is the best version of this sport and, and how do we get there and how do we get to it? And like, really have hard conversations about what you can do to it. And, you know, Bill Simmons had a great rant about all of this stuff. And I listened to his pod and I agreed with some of it, disagreed with some of it. But, like, he seems to believe that you could do 70 games, but the owners wouldn't want to give back the money.
- [17:58]
Colin Cowherd
So expand.
- [17:59]
Danny Parkins
Like the NBA? Absolutely. You watch this sport, guys sit out because of injury, real or imagined, and guys you've never heard of come in and drop 30 like it's nothing. There's absolutely enough basketball talent in the world to fill. To fill 32 teams. And so if you went to 32 teams and added Seattle and Vegas, that would increase revenue. Then cut back to 70 games, give the players a little bit more rest. They play more, they stay healthier. I feel like that is an obvious fix for the league here. That doesn't solve every problem, but it solves a lot of problems.
- [18:44]
Colin Cowherd
And the other thing is baseball made these changes, and for years they were reticent to do so because it's a game of history and lore and tradition. Basketball's not. There's an old saying in sports. NBA thinks of it first. NFL gets it right. Baseball makes the most money on it. Basketball, I mean, David Stern changed the texture of the ball and didn't tell the players he came out. I remember that it was just outrageously a bad idea. Then they put sleeves on uniforms and some people thought that was to hide tattoos that looked dumb. So, I mean, the NBA and David Stern's largely considered almost a maverick, a highly successful commissioner, he took big swings and missed. So I think, I do think in life and in business, when the money's good people, it absolves you of change.
- [19:35]
Danny Parkins
Yeah.
- [19:35]
Colin Cowherd
And I do think I agree with you. I think that David Stern used to tell, like networks like espn. Listen, guys, nobody watches our regular season. They never have. That's the dirty little secret of this business. But I think there's more media critics and more people bagging on basketball. I think it just needs a few tweaks. I would tweak the three point game, make it more situational, make it more about contact and physicality. You do that by just take out the corner threes, make the three arc go right in the bench. And I also, you can. People can bag on tanking. All they want is. That's why San Antonio is going to have a 12 year run. By the way, if you go back to their, you know, how did they get Duncan, David Robinson, they were the first tankers, by the way. Remember when David Stern was around and they wouldn't play like in big Sunday games, they would, they would be at home in San Antonio on, I think it was Saturday night. And they wanted to reward their fans. And then on Sundays, like it's a travel day. I'm not playing Manu Ginobili and Tony Parker in the league. David Stern got on the phone and barked at everybody. Ownership now, but the.
- [20:37]
Danny Parkins
It's. It's the same conversation, but we're talking slightly past you. It is smart.
- [20:44]
Colin Cowherd
Yes.
- [20:44]
Danny Parkins
I am not going to say that tanking isn't smart.
- [20:46]
Colin Cowherd
Right.
- [20:47]
Danny Parkins
Sam Presti tanked in order to get some of the picks that he got right. Like the spurs, as you've mentioned, it's undeniably the right strategy. The question should be, again, like, should it be allowed? Like in baseball? It was the right strategy. A strikeout is not as bad as we think. Yeah, swing hard because home runs are so valuable. It's okay if you hit 220. If you hit 40 bombs. I'd rather you hit 220 with 40 bombs than hit 260 with 24 bombs. Even though 260 with 24 bombs.
- [21:18]
Colin Cowherd
Ball.
- [21:18]
Danny Parkins
And play more and more action, more visually appealing product.
- [21:21]
Colin Cowherd
Yeah.
- [21:22]
Danny Parkins
But you score more runs if you
- [21:23]
Colin Cowherd
hit the ball over the wall.
- [21:24]
Danny Parkins
So they did things to kind of move it, move it away from that to have more action in the sport.
- [21:31]
Art Manteris
Like.
- [21:31]
Danny Parkins
And so again, like, I. What, what's wrong with the rule? This is just a, it's a very simple one. You can't pick in the top four in back to back years like baseball has.
- [21:43]
Colin Cowherd
That's okay.
- [21:43]
Danny Parkins
I'm okay with that. Like, like, like baseball has that. Like you. The White Sox couple years ago had the worst record, but they had picked in the top, whatever it was. So they had to pick like 11th that year. Like just, just make it so that Utah fans, and even if you're right, that they are like okay with it because it's a path to it, it's still, at some point, this is competition. It's sports. You got it. You got to play the game to win. Or else what the hell are we doing here?
- [22:10]
Colin Cowherd
And Danny, the why your reason, your belief could make Sense is about three years ago because of the NIL, where American universities now buy 15 excellent euros and they pull them off their European teams and kids are now staying in college. Absolutely. We see it in football all the time now. They're six year players. The Truth is now, last year's draft was excellent. This year's draft is legendary. The drafts now are much better. I mean, this past draft, you get down to Ace Bailey at like six. The first six are like, no miss. And then you go from like 7 to 18 and you're like, well, those guys will all start at some point in the NBA. So I think that idea sticks to me because the draft's going to get much better. When that UConn team won a couple years ago, it was the first time, in my opinion, in 20 years maybe since the Florida Gators won back to back. Remember, they had Corey Brewer. Yo. Kim Noah.
- [23:06]
Danny Parkins
Yeah.
- [23:06]
Colin Cowherd
Joe Kim, Noah. That was a really, really good team.
- [23:10]
Art Manteris
Yeah.
- [23:10]
Colin Cowherd
And then we went how many years it was until the Yukon championship. You're like, this, this isn't, this isn't great. But that UConn team won. And I'm like, there's seven NBA guys. They, they're like playing. They're long. I mean, they got, they got like the Saban, Alabama teams. You're like, they have 16 NFL guys playing the Yukon teams. Like, that's when I went, okay, this, the, the, the, the transfer portal. And all this stuff that we're starting to see now, like, this is really like. It was when I used to watch Leitner and Bobby Hurley and Grant Hill. You're like, there's like four NBA guys on this team and two guys off the bench will be NBA guys next year. So I think you're, I think it works with you.
- [23:48]
Art Manteris
The.
- [23:49]
Colin Cowherd
No, you don't get a top four pick, but picks five through 14 are going to be starters in the NBA. Now, I don't necessarily. We had drafts where it was. Anthony Bennett was the number one pick. I mean, we had the Victor Ola Depot draft. You're like, I'm not sure there's a guy in like three out of four drafts. You're like, there's just nobody here.
- [24:08]
Danny Parkins
Yeah, no, I completely agree. And so I just, I again, I think that there's just, I think that that's one thing. I think the pick protections on trades are a little. This, you can trade a first round pick, but it's top 20 protected. It's, it's like shrink that way down. Like, because right now Utah, they, the reason that they need to tank so aggressively is because if they pick outside of the top eight, it goes to Oklahoma City. Like, Sam Presti would get. Sam Presti could get the ninth pick in this draft. Like, so, like, like Utah's like, we need the pick but also like the good of the league. We can't give Sam PRESTI Another top 10.
- [24:48]
Colin Cowherd
I saw that.
- [24:49]
Danny Parkins
You know, so like, so like, I just, I just think that those types of things the league needs to do, they, they, they, they need to do it. And I think, I think overall the product will improve. But again, the, to me, the biggest one is still style of play and figuring out like. And Katie hates when people talk about this because he thinks that people are doing it from a place of just looking for something to bitch about. I honestly think that these guys have just gotten too good. They're too good at hitting 23 footers. Like the whole league can shoot 35%. The whole league, Yeah.
- [25:29]
Colin Cowherd
I like Kevin Durant shooting threes. I don't like Anthony shooting them. Correct. I like game shooting them. I don't like ant shooting. There are players who are catch and shoot guys. Clay and KD are built for it. But when Russell Westbrook decides I need to take five, that's bad television.
- [25:46]
Danny Parkins
Correct. It's exactly. And like again, back in the day. And it's not that, it's not that you go, you put on a game from the 90s when I'm a child and I got Michael Jordan's jersey on my wall. Like they're not running as hard, they are not as fast like it is not. But they had one guy who would shoot threes. Steve Kerr, you're the three point shooter. John Paxton, you're the three point shooter dot now everyone does it. And so it's just the game is you gotta, you gotta evolve. You gotta evolve with the caliber of your athletes.
- [26:18]
Colin Cowherd
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- [28:13]
Colin Cowherd
on the iHeartRadio app all right, two truths and a Lie Here we go. I went to college with college football coach Jim McIlwain, I began my broadcasting career doing play by play for the Las Vegas Stars, and I've been a Verizon customer for 15 years. Okay, I lied. All three are true. Verizon isn't as expensive as you think. In fact, if you bring in your AT and T or T mobile bill to a Verizon store, they'll give you a better deal. That's right, a better deal on the best network with the most ways to save on plans, streaming and phone deals. So take that AT and T or T Mobile Build your local Verizon store today, get a better deal and start saving based on root metrics. Best Overall Mobile Network Performance U.S. 2nd Half 2025 All Rights Reserve Must provide recent Consumer mobile bill in the name of the person redeeming the deal. Additional terms, conditions and restrictions apply.
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- [29:33]
Colin Cowherd
Segregation in the day, integration at night.
- [29:39]
Podcast Host
When segregation was the law, one mysterious black club owner had his own rules.
- [29:44]
Art Manteris
We didn't worry about what went on outside.
- [29:46]
Colin Cowherd
It was like stepping in another world.
- [29:49]
Podcast Host
Inside Charlie's Place, black and white people danced together. But not everyone was happy about it.
- [29:57]
Earnest Refinancing Advertiser
You saw the kkk.
- [29:58]
Danny Parkins
Yeah.
- [29:59]
Colin Cowherd
They was dressed up in their uniform.
- [30:01]
Art Manteris
The KKK set out to raid Charlie, take him away from here. Charlie was an example.
- [30:09]
Colin Cowherd
Power they had to crush him.
- [30:14]
Podcast Host
From Atlas Obscura, Rococo Punch and visit Myrtle beach comes Charlie's Place, a story that was nearly lost to time. Until now. Listen to Charlie's place on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Dreaming of buying your first car or a new home? Knowing your FICO score is the first step in making it real. With MyFIC, you can check your score for free and it won't hurt your credit. You'll get your FICO score, full credit reports, and real time alerts all in one simple app. Your credit score is more than just numbers. It's the key to building the future you've been working toward. Visit myfico.com free or download the MyFICO app and take the mystery out of your FICO score.
- [31:08]
Colin Cowherd
Well, I just finished it. I was so excited. I just flew from Naples back to Chicago and I read it. It's called the Bookie Inside the High Stakes World of Sports Betting, A legendary bookmaker's tale of gangsters, celebrities and the art of the game. All the proceeds from the bookie are going to Art's two favorite charities, World Wildlife Fund and Blood Cancer United States. This is fun for me because as many of you know, if you've listened to me for years, I've talked at great length about my Las Vegas being my first job out of college. Well, one of the people that was at the center of it and around it, one of the most recognizable people who was building his own career was art Man Terras, who started at Caesars, moved to the Hilton, where I spent almost every Saturday and Sunday as a young sportscaster. So let's start with that. There's so many things to get to and I want to take this because a lot of this stuff, I want you to explain to the audience some of this stuff I knew. I am briefly in the book. And yes, I did introduce you to your wife, Sue. Beautiful, elegant, smart, all the great things. And I hope she's doing well. I know she is.
- [32:27]
Art Manteris
He is in.
- [32:29]
Colin Cowherd
Beautiful, beautiful kids. Absolutely Stunning, beautiful kids. So thank you. When you think of Caesar's Palace, I'm a guy from a small town. You go to Vegas, you think Caesar's palace, you know, it's, it's, it's hairy Gluck. It's big money. It's like just Steve Wynn is becoming this big art architect in Vegas. And you, Caesar says art, get in here and organize our sports book. And I'm reading your stories. It was a mess. And it's amazing that this industry has grown so much. Take the audience to when you went into Caesars, the back room to organize their sportsbook. And what you saw.
- [33:10]
Art Manteris
Well, you're right that, you know, in the early days of the sportsbook industry that I joined in 1980 was far different from the industry today. And there wasn't a whole lot of procedures and policies in place. And some of the sports books were pretty chaotic. Now, in fairness to some of the other executives at Caesars, they were hoping to do and wanting to do the same things that I did. And certainly the finance and audit people were a big help. And once they knew that they had somebody that wanted to clean things up, wanted things to be run legitimately and properly and within gaming. Gaming Control Board standards compliance standards. Yeah, they were very, very helpful also. But yes, it was chaotic in those days. There was very few house rules, very few standards of operational standards. And I think I was able to establish a lot of those policies that are still in place today in a lot of casinos.
- [34:14]
Colin Cowherd
Yeah, you and Chuck Esposito were the two guys I always trusted. I always thought you guys had kind of an everyman quality. And I don't think people understand this. There were people that I knew like Lem Banker. I didn't know Billy Walters at the time. And Lem could be very manipulative, rest in peace, and very much a showman. And, you know, Lem wanted what Lem wanted. But when you started in this business, you know, I'm very naive. You know, I just figured, you know, the big guys had phone accounts, but they weren't working the edges. It was a big operation. But you had real run ins with Billy Walter, oral Lem Banker. And let's talk about the most famous of the gamblers, Billy Walter. And how art you listen? You were paid by the Hilton or Caesars. This is a legitimate operation. Those guys didn't want to play by your rules.
- [35:07]
Art Manteris
Well, you know, I, I respect the folks that you're mentioning. Yeah, I certainly respect their abilities as handicappers. They, they were both top notch And I, and I respect that. But they, they were adversaries. You know, they, they weren't friends and, and partners or colleagues. They were adversaries. And certainly that left a real divide. And so no, I didn't get along real well with certain high end, sophisticated players. You know, they threatened my bottom line. And you know, and I said to a few people in recent weeks that, you know, you know, maintaining compliance, maintaining the gambling license of a company I always viewed as my top priority. Second was guest service for everyone and third was revenue. But nevertheless, the bottom line in all of that. Yeah, guest services, great. Having great television screens and audio systems and computer systems that function properly. That's all an important part of the business. But making money, still the bottom line. And it's still, after all is said and done, it's still about making money. And there were, they wanted mine and I wanted theirs. And that doesn't always lead to the most comfortable of relationships.
- [36:33]
Colin Cowherd
So I didn't know what runners were until I met people like you or Chuck Esposito. And you know, I'd sit down and be asking a million questions because I was curious about the industry and I always loved betting football. And you had to battle runners. A runner is somebody who is making bets for a whale, making bets for a Billy and you know, he just can't walk in, he can get banned or you're going to have limits on him. And his way around that is going to have 30 guys spread them around the city. Could you tell? Because you know, you had your guys, your tellers, could you tell that's a runner? That's not, I mean, how difficult was that for you, that game of cat and mouse?
- [37:10]
Art Manteris
Well, it was difficult. And in Nevada there's, there are regulations prohibiting what's called messenger betters. And that, you know, slang term is, is runners, of course, but that, but they are folks that are paid to wager on behalf of others. And, and by the way, just coincidentally, in recent months, New Jersey has passed laws banning proxy wagering, as it called in there, as it's called in their regulations. And that prohibits people from using other people's phone accounts. And that's very similar end result, in answer to your question, sometimes, not always, but sometimes, I mean, there would be certain tip offs if you believed somebody was runner. And certainly with today's technology, you could see point spread movement around the industry. And you know, my long standing statement to my staff was, well, either this guy has ESP or he's working with somebody else. Yeah, if the line's changing across the industry simultaneously as somebody's playing. That's a pretty fair indication of where the source of those funds might be coming from. But there's no tried and true standard answer that gives me or anyone else the ability to, to determine that definitively. It's a pretty tough question to answer, but there are indications and I always try to err on the side of caution rather than the side of leniency.
- [38:41]
Colin Cowherd
You know, there's a story when I was a kid growing up, the most well known NBA official was Earl Strom. He was very boisterous. He was very, very much theater and charismatic. And there's a story in your book about and this just goes to show you the lengths. You didn't have the Internet back then. I mean it was basically you tell a story about to get to figure out because gamblers felt like, oh, he has a tendency to blank as a ref or do this. It's not rigged, it's not throwing a game. But referees are human. They have tendencies.
- [39:18]
Art Manteris
That's right.
- [39:18]
Colin Cowherd
For years and years there were certain officials that just were willing to give the, the road team, maybe Steve Javi. For years I always was told that hey, he'll go into a harsh arena, he'll give the road team the call, he won't be intimidated, like maybe young refs or college refs. But tell the Earl Strom story because I thought that was fascinating.
- [39:38]
Art Manteris
Well, there was a very sophisticated gambler who I was friendly with, very friendly with. I actually played softball together. He was a terrific slow pitch softball pitcher and one of those old timers that really knew the game and we were very friendly. I didn't realize the extent of his sophistication as a sports better because again, he wasn't making most of his bets in person. Others were. So I didn't put it, put two and two together for quite some time. But later he did tell me the story of how he would track Earl Strong because he believed that he had strong tendencies and he believed that his officiating could, could dramatically affect NBA totals. And he, you know, his, his total bets were, were based in large part on where Earl Strong was going to be officiating. And as you said, there was no Internet back then.
- [40:33]
Colin Cowherd
So he literally didn't know who was officiating the games.
- [40:36]
Art Manteris
Well, he had somebody following Earl Strong to determine what city he was flying to.
- [40:42]
Colin Cowherd
That just cracks me up. Basically. Earl Strawman spies. Oh, Earl's in Detroit tonight. Bet the over.
- [40:49]
Art Manteris
Yes, that's right. That's right, that's Right.
- [40:52]
Colin Cowherd
So what happens in your career? I fell in love with boxing when I moved to Vegas and there are times it could be a Pacquiao Mayweather fight or a Buster Douglas Tyson fight where by proxy you have information that is kind of viewed as inside information. What do you do when you know something maybe you shouldn't know? You stumble on it or you're so connected art. You just find things out, right?
- [41:21]
Art Manteris
Yeah.
- [41:22]
Colin Cowherd
In those instances, if you could take the audience through one or two of those, where that. Is that a dilemma for you?
- [41:29]
Art Manteris
It absolutely is a dilemma. And you know, for many years, particularly after you left, you left Las Vegas, I got real involved in boxing. I was very involved in signing big fights and operating the fights and being part of the publicity tours of it for various big fights. And I never saw, I never thought anything about it. It was just part of my job. And I, and I love doing, I love being around boxing. I love running sports books. Yeah. And so, so, you know, it didn't, it didn't bother me. I didn't feel any, any, any great conflict until the, until the Mayweather Pacquiao fight. And in that fight I did find out some very, very important inside information. And, and it left me in a real dilemma. Before the fight, I was told straight up that Pacquiao was hurt and could not win the fight. And when you watch the fight, that's exactly what happened, that he was one armed fighter that night. He immediately had shoulder surgery shortly after the fight. And it became crystal clear to me that there must be a very clear separation between participation in sports, including on the promotional end and gambling on sports. And, and, and I've preached that message ever since. And, and I did work for the NBA as a consultant for many years and of course they loved that message as did other, as did the other leagues, you know, because I would be at various conferences and speaking engagements and you know, I felt very, a great deal of comrade camaraderie with the leagues on, on that issue. That, that's why, Colin, the, the, the, the embracing of gambling now by the leagues have been surprising to me. You know, I mean I knew that there was going to be some cooperation, data sharing, for example, for in play wagering, video signals to, into casinos and sports books, of course is another form of cooperation. And I, that I, that I certainly expected. But the, but the, the, the amount of official sponsorships and official partnerships with the GAMB really surprised me. And, and, and, and, and I think that that message can't stand. It's not going to stay There forever because there's going to be pushback inevitably. And. And, you know, and I look around the world, the world of sports gambling. You know, you look to Europe where sports gambling has been legal now for something like 25 years or 30 years, and sports book advertising is not legal. And there's great pushback now in the UK and Ireland and the Netherlands, in Germany and. And elsewhere around the world. The U.S. of course, is still going 100 miles an hour the opposite direction. And, you know, I think that's a terribly missed, mixed message that the leagues are trying to send right now. You know, they. They tell their players and their staffs, the coaches and even office personnel how they must stay away from gambling, how. How evil gambling is. And yet they're signing these partnership agreements and in some cases even wearing gambling company logos on the shirts. On their shirts. So. So I think it's confusing to a lot of young athletes, and it's. It's going to continue to cause problems until there is a day of reckoning. And I.
- [45:01]
Colin Cowherd
Well, there's.
- [45:01]
Art Manteris
Yeah, I hope that the leagues address this issue themselves rather than have it imposed upon.
- [45:09]
Colin Cowherd
Yeah. And let's, you know, prop bets are something, I think, that worry people. I've said before, I worry about not. Not betting the spread as much because games are monitored. You always knew, and you predicted this and you told the NBA when you sat down with David Stern, watch the officials. It's not going to be about the players. It's going to be college kids because they don't have any money. And it's going to be officials. And so what's interesting is the Tim Donaghy situation happened, and it was. I will say this, and I've talked to Tim Donaghy. It was.
- [45:45]
Art Manteris
Let's.
- [45:45]
Colin Cowherd
Let's take it back, because I, for years argued Vegas is the ally of the pro leagues. They don't want it. Listen, the margins are thin on this stuff.
- [45:54]
Art Manteris
That's right.
- [45:55]
Colin Cowherd
The last thing they want is for there to be illegal gambling. They'll tell the leagues, we're getting burned on this game or we're getting burned by this official. So let's go back to the Tim Donaghy situation, where he wasn't necessarily changing outcomes. He was changing overs and unders. And take the audience back because I want to get them into your book. Were you shocked by Donaghy?
- [46:20]
Art Manteris
I was caught off guard. I did not see that it was happening, and I have great regret about that. And I talk about that in the book. I wish I had caught. Would have Been very difficult see though, because we did not get bet on those games or those totals. So there was no unusual money flooding into the, into the Las Vegas casinos. Like there was for example, in the Arizona State point shaving scandal of the mid-90s. Right. Which was easy to see. And, and, and, and I was so proud of the industry for seeing it, doing the right thing, notifying the leagues, notifying, or in that case the NCAA and of course the Nevada Gaming Control Board, having everything documented, videotaped, etc, we handled the situation perfect perfectly. So I took great pride in that and I took that part of my job seriously, monitoring for those types of improprieties. The Donaghy scandal, though, was very upsetting to me. And seeing David Stern before the media, when that was first reported was heartbreaking. He was, you know, he was genuinely crushed, hurt by what had happened. It was plain to see. You could see the pain on his face. And that's how I felt too. But today it's far different. And you know, mentioning the prop bets, I've never been an advocate of prop bets on college athletes. I did wind up doing it the last several years that I was in the business, but I had to, to keep up with the Joneses. By that time, by that time, you know, in, in the late 20, 18, 19 and early 20s, you couldn't not have prop bets up on, on the, the college football championship game or the Final Four. You know, it was expected by that time by your consumers and you had to accommodate your consumers. So I did do it, but I never liked it. It. But what's happened now in the last couple years with, you know, in pro baseball and pro basketball has been very surprising and devastating to me. And that, that, that, that is going to be very tough to control. Prop betting and in play wagering has become a very fun, enjoyable pastime for thousands and thousands of consumers. So it's going to be hard to roll that back, but on college sports it should be rolled back. And I, and I am a strong, strong advocate of the industry doing away with prop wagering on college sports or on, call it individual athlete athletic performance.
- [49:02]
Colin Cowherd
I want to go back to the Tyson Buster Douglas fight where Mike Tyson I think was a 421 favorite. I can remember going on the air and saying it's the safest bet of all time. In fact, a friend of mine, a friend of mine was at the California Pizza Kitchen at the then time New Mirage and we were at the California Pizza and the fight was that night. And he goes, hey, I'm going to bet $10 on Buster Douglas. I said, just buy a chicken. California pizza. Chicken barbecue chicken pizza. That is a way better bet than Buster Douglas. Some guy from Ohio. Of course, I was, you know, exceptionally wrong. Go back to that fight. What happens in your space when it is the upset of a decade in any sport? Is that a miserable experience for you?
- [49:55]
Art Manteris
Well, I. I didn't even book that fight. I didn't take wagers on it. I thought it. I considered it an out price, meaning it was ridiculous. It wasn't a competitive event. Buster Douglas had fought at the Hilton about a year earlier and lost to. To Tony Tucker and did not impress me at all. He, you know, he was lethargic and, you know, just uninspired performance completely and didn't. Didn't look good at all. And I'd seen him in some other fights, too, on his way up the ladder. Not very impressive to me. Tyson, of course, was annihilating everybody at that time. But that in retrospect, Buster Douglas had lost his mother shortly before the fight, and he dedicated his next fight to the memory of his mom. Fought the fight of his life. He really did fight a terrific fight that night. Tyson, on the other hand, was an emotional wreck in his personal life. And I came to learn later in this case, I learned this in this inside information after the fact, not before the fact. But I was told by a very good friend and my personal physician, who happened to be Mike's personal physician also, and also the chairman of the Nevada Athletic Commission, that Mike had been suffering from an STD and was under heavy medication at the time of the fight. And it wasn't the first time that he fought under those conditions. The first time in the Trevor Berbick fight, it didn't hurt his performance at all. Second time it did.
- [51:27]
Colin Cowherd
Yeah, the.
- [51:29]
Art Manteris
By the way. By the way, colin, that. That 42 to one that you're referencing, that. That was Jimmy Vaccaro at the Mirage. Booked the fight and he put it up 1 to 27, making Tyson a 271 favorite over Douglas. And all the money was on Tyson. Every ticket was on Tyson. He said, somebody put up a lot of money, you know, and so he ratcheted the odds all the way up to 42 to 1 and then got some great publicity about it afterwards. Still telling stories about it to this day.
- [52:06]
Colin Cowherd
The Volume.
- [52:09]
Podcast Host
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