← The Herd with Colin Cowherd
The Herd with Colin Cowherd
Colin Cowherd Podcast Prime Cuts - Rory Finally Wins The Masters, PGA vs. LIV, NBA Playoff Preview
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- [00:00]
Colin Cowherd
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Colin Cowherd
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Colin Cowherd
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Colin Cowherd
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John Middlekauff
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Colin Cowherd
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Dan Morgan
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- [02:10]
Colin Cowherd
The 40s and free agents podcast with Daniel Jeremiah and Greg Rosenthal.
- [02:14]
Jason McIntyre
Has prepared you for the 2025 NFL Draft.
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John Middlekauff
We've told you what last year's playoff teams need to return to the postseason.
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Colin Cowherd
And how teams with new coaches should Approach the draft.
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John Middlekauff
So as draft season comes to a close, we've got you covered. Before your favorite team goes on the clock, we'll break it all down Once all 257 picks have listen to the.
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Colin Cowherd
40S and free agents podcast on the.
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John Middlekauff
Iheartradio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
- [02:43]
Colin Cowherd
The Volume I don't, I can't remember the last two days of a golf tournament where I was more emotionally vested in a golfer than Rory McElroy. And I wasn't rooting against Justin Rose or Bryson DeChambeau, who I think has done an incredible 180 rehab of his brand, where he was unlikable and now is incredibly likable, or at least more likable. But I was thinking about this. John. John middlekoff Former NFL scout 3 and out part of the Volume is that what makes Rory. We know he's a sensational talent, but he's got a Phil Mickelson quality where you can, you can see him buckle. You can see, I mean, when he takes that wedge from a buck 25 out and puts it in the water in the creek, you're like, bro, I hit my irons great. Saturday at Skokie Country Club in Chicago suburb. Like, I. What is going on? And I think what finds him, what, what makes Rory so likable is that he is vulnerable and he just has, you know, four double bogeys, short wedge shot in the creek. I think that just makes him incredibly watchable.
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John Middlekauff
Yeah, I think, you know, I think every great golfer definitely in my life, which I've been watching for almost 30 years now.
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Colin Cowherd
Yeah.
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John Middlekauff
Like, the Tiger Phil era is kind of defined by their greatness or disasters in majors.
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Colin Cowherd
Yeah.
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John Middlekauff
You know, when I was a kid, Greg Norman, I, it was a big deal. Like, have a shark polo when I was a kid, wear him to school.
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Colin Cowherd
Yeah.
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John Middlekauff
When you think Greg Norman, you think a guy that unravels and fails. You know, Phil is weird because he's one of the greatest players in the history of the Sport. He's won six majors. He's won the Masters three times. He's won 45 tournaments. But you remember him a lot of times for finishing second.
- [04:43]
Colin Cowherd
Yes.
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John Middlekauff
To Payne Stewart. He blasted out of bounds at wingfoot in the mid 2000, taking big risk.
- [04:48]
Colin Cowherd
He doesn't need to.
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John Middlekauff
And he's like that in life. Right. When he, when he made the comments about the Saudis after he took their $200 million. You know, Rory's this kind of enigma because. And I thought today actually symbolize his entire career.
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Colin Cowherd
Yeah.
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John Middlekauff
I mean, he had a couple shots that are like the most incredible shots in the history of Masters. He hooked a seven iron around a tree to five feet on 15. And then he. And then he. And then he missed the putt. And then he missed the putt, you know, and I. I can't. You know, Tiger's got this torn Achilles. He's like a. He's like a 1970s NFL player on his. On his be 18 million injuries. Can you imagine Tiger watching this tournament and thinking, you know, Tiger was actually pretty boring as a champion because he didn't screw up. What was the famous quote like? Dumb loses more than smart wins. Yeah, Tiger was very conservative. You know, Rory dunks into the water. He bogeys 18 to send it to a playoff after he's right in the middle of the fairway, 330 yards. Yeah, I don't know where you stood. I thought the emotional roller coaster of that three and a half hours. How could he win in, you know, in extra hole? I thought he was going to lose, Colin. I. I didn't. I didn't have any faith he was going to win in extra holes because emotionally, put yourself in his shoes. He had to be gutted to try to gather himself and keep his heart rate down. He probably wanted to cry.
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Colin Cowherd
Well, it's funny because Phil Mickelson got himself into trouble because he was overly aggressive, but. And he would buckle, but it was a different kind. Rory loses confidence. You can see it. And there are times on that wedge, you're like, oh, he just lost confidence. He said it a little bit on the green jacket, you know, in ceremony, in the room, which I thought was really emotional, but, yeah, I just. I think, you know, Tiger was such a great leader. Like, he never lost leads. If Tiger led by five strokes going into Sunday, it was over. There was one U.S. open against Rocco Mediate, which I found that was stirring with Tiger. Also his last match, where he was an older golfer, was stirring and really emotional.
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John Middlekauff
Well, Colin08 was stirring with Rocco because he had a torn ACL and a broken leg. He was healthy, but. Yeah, I know what you mean.
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Dan Morgan
Yeah.
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Colin Cowherd
And I mean, I just thought the whole spectacle, it was perfect weather. Amen. Corner. Just the galleries or the patrons. The intensity. You know, I kept thinking to myself, so Bryson DeChambeau was. DeChambles his. I mean, he had a distance issue all weekend, but he was putting great until Sunday. And it was interesting when they interviewed him afterwards, he took a little shot, a little projection when he said, you know, I don't remember the Sunday greens being that fast because he was really off now. He, all weekend had sort of a distance issue, like he was long or short. But I, but I. His putting kept him close, whereas Rory's wedge and Rory's irons were either remarkable or mediocre. Rory today, frankly think about how good Rory is. Get one of the worst shots ever. The wedge into the creek. He blew a four stroke lead. He had a couple of putts, but he was hit and miss off the tee. He, you didn't know exactly what you were getting from Rory off the tee and yet he won. I mean, how damn good do you have to be if you just, if I just told you what his round was rough off the tee, one of the worst shots ever. Gags a lead, you wouldn't think he'd win.
- [08:27]
John Middlekauff
Well, I thought, I mean Colin, he, he blew a, he had a two shot lead coming in today. He was down one shot after two holes. I mean, it felt like, is this going to be Greg Norman, John Vanderbilt, immediately, honestly, you felt bad for him. You're like, how can this happen? But he had a couple shots today that I would say were. Phil, like over trees? Yes. I mean, he had one shot over a tree. Oh, the bender around the tree. Another shot over tree from the left side. He had another shot on the right side. He did get a little lucky. I mean, one thing with Augusta, you can't really hit it out of bounds. You just. There's tree trouble, but it's not, there's no rough, so you can spray it a little bit and there's just. The golf gods are on your side. You're still going to be okay. So the golf gods were on his side through the first three rounds. He was the best player in the tournament by a mile. I mean, Bryson yesterday hit that like 100 foot putt instead of being down three, down two on 18. But he didn't even play that well yesterday, where Rory shot 66. 66 Friday and Saturday and on Friday and on Thursday, Rory's four under heading into 15, hits it on two, chips it into the water. So he kind of unravels at the end, but he had played brilliantly. And it just shows you that. Like to me, one thing that's fascinating about Rory and I always admire the Michael Jordans, the Brady's, even the young version of Mahomes. When you win, you win big, you make all the money and you just keep grinding because you're addicted to the competition. The Tiger was notorious for this, right Stevie Williams as caddy would be like, you know, we'd win. And Tiger would call me two days later and be like, I'll meet you at the range at six in the morning. Stevie, like, take the week off. And now that this gets the monkey off. And Roy had already won twice this year. He won at pebble and he won the players. Now he's won the Masters. He's playing by far the best in the world. He's better than Scotty's off. You know, Bryson, really, he's outplayed Bryson twice. He screwed up last year in the putts at Pinehurst. If Rory keeps the pedal, the metal, he might not win every major, but he could win like six, seven times. He could have a historic year. You do wonder, watch the way he broke down. Is he just going to take like a month to just like not do anything? Wouldn't blame him. But if he keeps it down like Jordan or Tiger or Brady Wood, he, he's the best player in the world right now by, by a pretty wide margin, I think.
- [10:37]
Colin Cowherd
Yeah, and I thought Bryson dechambell, his game is just, you know, listen, I like golf. I played it this weekend. I, I, I'm, How'd you play? I, I am hitting my irons the last year as well as I can hit them, just as well as I can hit him.
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John Middlekauff
You need to give Bryson a lesson.
- [10:56]
Colin Cowherd
His game feels loose, Bryce. I mean, he was struggling getting the ball in the fairway. His wedges were hit and miss. He got it in the drink twice today. Now, his putting saved him over the weekend, but today when his putting went, it really unveiled the truth about his game is the putting kept him around. He mentioned it after the round. His game is just not right.
- [11:24]
John Middlekauff
Well, I think the old adage is you can talk to a fade, a draw or hook doesn't listen. And when you play that draw or hook one, it goes farther and it goes harder. And I know he's like, all the greens were harder. Bryson, the greens at the Masters have been the same since, you know, Arnold Palmer was playing in the 50s. They're hard, they're firm. Your irons weren't even close. And he plays this power draw, which today turned in, last couple of days turned into a hook. He is, you know, the thing with Bryson, he's clearly mellowed out. And the YouTube thing has changed his world. If he was a football player, I mean, this guy is a blue chip out of high school, out of college, like he has an elite talent, but he is, he messes with all sorts of weird shit. I mean, he's got special made clubs.
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Colin Cowherd
Have you seen a brand?
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John Middlekauff
He's a different cat.
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Colin Cowherd
Wikipedia. Bryson DeChambeau's clubs. I was reading it over the weekend.
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John Middlekauff
It's called 3D.
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Colin Cowherd
I mean, he doesn't. He uses stuff nobody else has used. He's been very contrarian. I mean, I thought it was funny when they came out today, the buildup was like a Tyson fight. So DeChambeau comes out, he's all gladiator. And, you know, they're both power players, but Rory plays fast and DeChambeau has more pace. And, you know, like Jim Mance talked about this. He said, you know, putting these two together is an advantage, maybe for Bryson because he'll try to slow. You know, the slower player can irk the faster player. And Rory likes to get up, hit and go. I find Rory very easy to watch. He's the antithesis of like Sergio Garcia in his prime, where you just. It was irritating to watch him. So Bryson's not that slow, but Rory just gets up, hits it. And again, the thing with Rory is just how remarkable he is as a talent to win today. I mean, he is. I think he had four double bogeys. I don't know.
- [13:13]
John Middlekauff
It's never happened before in the history of the Masters. Craig Stadler had three once and won it in 82. That was the only time anyone had three. The double bogey for normal human beings happens a lot for pro golfers. It does not happen very often, especially in a major. It can. One can sink you the.
- [13:29]
Colin Cowherd
I thought it was interesting on 18, which is the narrowest tee shot. So here was Rory. He put himself in a position. That's where I was on. So I flew in. So I watched every shot the last two days. And I was watching, you know, that my plane landed basically as the it at LAX as the tournament ended. So Masters app is amazing. I watched every shot, just fantastic. But that I found myself on the 18th because there was a lot of tension during the last two days. But on Saturday, it's kind of like, okay, you can miss shots. It's fine. When he stepped up on 18 and he delivered a beauty, I mean, he just crushed it. And I felt like, okay, it's his. And then in typical Rory fashion, he ends up going, you know, to a playoff. Going into the playoff, I kind of felt like Justin Rose was going to win it.
- [14:25]
John Middlekauff
Do you get nervous anymore? Anything you do in life? Like, is it often you get nervous?
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Colin Cowherd
I don't.
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John Middlekauff
What would it take for you to get nervous, you think like you're calling the super bowl or, I mean, something that you. But it'd have to be something that you can actually, you know, feel comfortable doing, right?
- [14:41]
Colin Cowherd
Not me. I get nervous for my kids. I get nervous. It's the only sport that I get nervous is golf. And I felt that because, like, I loved Phil Mickelson and there's something about the vulnerability of Rory that just connects with me. I. I've been rooting for him, and this is not anti anybody else. I was rooting for him all weekend.
- [15:03]
John Middlekauff
Well, once, once Rose basically split the fairway in extra holes. You're looking at Rory and you're thinking, how can you control your heart rate right now? Because you know he's. Rose has no pressure on him. If I crumble, I. I'm going to be viewed as. Honestly, it would have felt bigger than Greg Norman because you had unraveled, taken the lead. Unraveled, taking the lead. Unraveled, taking the lead. It's. I would say it was kind of an unlike a situation. I haven't watching golf for a long time. I don't ever remember around where a guy unravels, takes the lead, unravels, takes the lead, and then has a chance to win it. And then Bogey's 18 like he did. I thought if Roy snaps it into the trees or overcuts it into the trees, it's very understandable. And then the moment he split the fairway, I thought, okay, this he does have, obviously Phil as well. I mean, Phil won a major a couple of years ago as a 51 year old. These guys have. I think we underrate, especially Phil and Rory, because Tiger suck so much of the energy out. Like, I think Brady did this with Peyton. Like, Peyton's got a lot of resolve to him as well, you know, Rory and Phil. And then when he won it, he almost felt like usually guys raise their hands up or whatever. Roy just hit the ground and cried. Yeah, almost like clearly a weight had been lifted off his entire career. That that's where I get a little nervous that like, does this. Does he maintain this? Because how could the same drive because of the pressure. And this has been a decade running. And think of the situations that have happened. I mean, just last year, losing to Bryson like he did, now you just wonder, like, can he sustain this? And like, you talked about the Bryson, Rory thing. I think what's pretty special about football is if you're in the same conference as your foe. You know, Peyton and Brady were both in the afc. Well, if you both win the division, you're going to automatically play each other every year. And if your teams are good, you're going to play each other in the playoffs every, every a lot. We get that with Josh Allen and Patrick Mahomes in golf, how often. We never really got Tiger Phil. It just never happened. Right. In the biggest tournaments yet, we've got Rory Bryson twice in six months. It's now it didn't quite play out as good as the last time, but it does feel like I would expect this. It wouldn't shock me if we got this a couple more times. I mean, this is. It was just really cool. Even if it didn't live up to the billing like you said, it felt like Dana White should have been walking right behind him. Right. The height. And then Bryson fell off. But Rory, you just felt like the fight was still going. He's just fighting some other guy. Yeah, that was. I mean, I think we've seen some crazy Masters. Colin. That's, that's got to be one of the more riveting multiple stretches of couple hours we've ever seen.
- [17:31]
Colin Cowherd
Well, a year ago, I mean, we saw Jon Rahm really struggle. He, you know, he took that live money and. Which is fine. I, I defended live guys forever.
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John Middlekauff
Same.
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Colin Cowherd
I mean, again, our government is in bed with the Saudis. Everybody is. It's. There's a difference between blaming and judging. I didn't blame any of the guys. If you want to be judgy on him, go for it. But you'd have taken the money to Chris Rock's joke. Men are as loyal as their options. If somebody offers you 130 million and you can play half the tournaments, you're going to do it. I did think it was interesting on like Thursday and Friday, you couldn't find Bryson DeChambeau. It was like, are you guys going to put him on television? And it was like, come on, guys. There is still. Let's, let's talk about this sort of division between, you know, the Masters and cbs. It's the longest running broadcast partnership in sports. It's like NBC and the Olympics, CBS and the Masters. How intense do you think the division is? Obviously, like on Thursday and Friday, it was like, can we show Bryson to shamble here? Folks, this is getting ridiculous. How intense do you think and ugly do you think the division is between the PGA and Liv still?
- [18:39]
John Middlekauff
I think it's pretty bad. And I think, you know, CBS and NBC, their loyalty to the PGA Tour, I mean, they've been in business with them Forever. Right? I mean, specifically the PGA Tour. Obviously, CBS has the Masters, but CBS calls. I don't know how many PGA Tour events during the year. I'd guess 15. You know, and I think the problem is you're dealing with a group that. I mean, Yasser has access to a piggy bank that's bigger than any piggy bank in the history of the world. They got trillions of dollars. And so, yeah, it's like they could lose a billion dollars. They don't even notice it. It'd be like someone losing 10 bucks. And I think the PGA Tour, you know, Tiger's very involved. Well, where's his ego? And his pride is based on the history of. Of the PGA Tour. That's what made him a billionaire and famous. And I think there are just a lot of egos, a lot of money on the line, and I think the Tour could get very lucky that some of these guys, like no one. You know, Fox just did business with Liv, and they're on Fox Sports 1, and they put the Doral Tournament. But people just aren't watching, because anytime you start something new, it's hard to get people to gravitate. I don't care who you bring over. I mean, Bryson gets more people watching on YouTube. And I just think there's a lot of bitterness. There's a lot of money on the line. Some of the guys on the tour that didn't leave are bitter because those guys, Bryson got $200 million, and I didn't get any. So I don't think they're any closer. I mean, I've heard them talk about this for two years now, and there's no light at the end of the tunnel because they're both balking and balking and balking. And I think Liv goes, well, we have some demands if you're going to take our money. And I don't blame them. I think Liv wants to deal with the PGA Tour, but they also don't want their idea that was live in this team golf, which. Golf's an individual sport, just like tennis. It doesn't mean occasionally there's a tennis tournament. I forget the Davis cup, where you play doubles, just like there's a Ryder Cup. We like watching golf. To watch Pete Sampras play, Andre Agassi, to watch Tiger woods play Ernie Ells and Phil Mickelson one on one. That's what golf is. And I think Liv and their money loves their idea, which, again, I understand sticking to an idea, the PGA Tour wants no part of it, and their Players aren't going to agree to a deal that like, well, we got to play in seven team tournaments. What they got going for them is I do think, you know, at least there have been articles and rumors that guys like Bryson and Brooks miss being in the bright lights. Sure. And there's something that live can't bring to the table. So when their contracts end and they've made hundreds of, they could just come back.
- [21:05]
Colin Cowherd
Right.
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John Middlekauff
And let's face it, if you could do a draft right. Of the PGA Tour, could pick one person and one person only, they wouldn't even hesitate. It'd be Bryson. And if none of the other guys ever came back rom multiple time major champion Dustin Johnson, Brooks, Kepler, I don't think it would be that big a deal. But Bryson is. I think they would take him. And you can't convince me that Bryson, you got to let him keep doing his YouTube stuff, just acquiesce. The world's change. Let him do his YouTube stuff, let him play on the PGA Tour and I think everything would be fine. I think he's the key pretty clearly because he's not going away. He loves golf.
- [21:39]
Colin Cowherd
Well, there's only.
- [21:41]
John Middlekauff
He's the guy now.
- [21:42]
Colin Cowherd
At any one point in my life, you know, I've said this about all sports, baseball especially. Don't listen to purists. You got them. Don't listen to purists. Speed the game up, you know, make the bases larger, take away the defensive shift. Don't become analytic, you know, dependent. Like, like.
- [22:02]
John Middlekauff
Yeah.
- [22:03]
Colin Cowherd
So. And I feel like golf. In any one time in my life, there have been three golfers I was really interested in. And right now the four guys, if they're on that I'm really interested in, are Rory Koepka, Bryson DeChambeau and Dustin Johnson. There's a bunch. And Scotty Scheffler doesn't do it for me. I know he's great. Doesn't do anything, you know, Bubba Watson had a role. Doesn't do anything for me. So it's just they're very. It's always been about three guys, four guys. Even in the Arnie and Jack days, there was, you know, there were a couple of players, maybe Elite Trevino mixed in there, Johnny Miller for a few years, but Tom Weiskopf, you know, Tom Kite weren't moving the needle. So I kind of look at it like I thought this weekend was the very best of golf. You got the Masters and the undulating course, which is just. And it's a picture. It's literally. It's literally a picture. It's a postcard. And then you had. As Jim Nance said, this is a journey and an odyssey in one day for Rory McElroy. I just thought it gave you everything. I thought it gave you bad shots, blown leads, buckling, picturesque tradition. And I will say this, Bryson DeChambeau, he. His mood changed by about the fifth hole. I mean, honestly, you could see him then he started hurrying up, and he tends to have a slower pace. Like, he started at one point. One of the announcers said, like, he's just. He sort of lost his personality. He's lost it. You could just sense he was getting really frustrated and I don't know, I just thought it was the best final round I can remember. I kept thinking about Rocco mediate, Tiger Woods, U.S. open. That's what kept flashing in my head.
- [23:45]
John Middlekauff
I actually think the Masters has really, really benefited the last couple years from liv, because these guys only get back together four times a year. And because of the calendar, it's the first time they get back together. And this is by far the biggest tournament of the year. So it's the perfect combination. And like you said, I mean, the weather, the last couple of days just look picturesque. Having the superstars, the leaderboard was incredible. I just think that this tournament, in a weird way, I hate LIV because it's just. It's made my life as just someone that wants to watch all these guys play together. Like you said, I don't care that who makes what. I just want to see all these guys play together. And it's separated them, but it's made this weekend, specifically the last couple of years. I would say it's. It's put it on steroids and it's. It's hard even for the other majors to quite feel like this one, because this one is just. The Masters has always been big. It's, you know, every human being, whether you don't even like golf, knows the green jacket. Tiger took it to another level. I do think, though, the last couple of years, with them all getting back together, it feels like there's. Now Bryson is kind of. I mean, last year he had the lead after a couple rounds. He's been a major factor these last couple of years at the Masters has added an element to this tournament that, you know, without Tiger, it's just hard. I mean, the golf, this isn't football. I mean, football wouldn't be big enough. I remember being a kid, USFL tried to take away Steve Young and Bruce Smith and Jim Kelly. Like, you need. You only have 10, 15, 20 guys that really matter in golf. You probably only got five or six.
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Colin Cowherd
Yes.
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John Middlekauff
I can't lose two of them. Right. And tennis was very dependent on Federer, Joker and Nadal for basically 15, 20 years.
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Colin Cowherd
Yeah.
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John Middlekauff
When I was a kid, it was Sampers and Agassi and that was kind of it.
- [25:23]
Colin Cowherd
Yeah.
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John Middlekauff
And it's like golf is not big enough to handle this divide, but the majors don't really care because they're Masters in business with the Masters. It works for them.
- [25:32]
Colin Cowherd
Have you ever seen what you win when you win the Masters? So the purse this year was 4.2 million. You get the jacket, lifetime membership, invitation forever. You get all these exclusive places, you know, that you can, you know, only a handful of. But you got to use the locker room of champions, which is just all time great. But it's one of the, it's. It's. I think the, the only thing to me that compares to the Masters is when the US Open is at pebble beach, where I'm literally watching for the course. And Pinehurst is great, but I'm not watching for Pinehurst. Pebble Beach, US Opens feel different. British Open feels different. St. Andrews. And I think the Masters, those three tournament, PGA Championship to me just doesn't. You know, again, if I'm, I'm around. But it was interesting. So I'm watching Thursday and Friday on vacation and I went and golf Saturday. I was just like, oh, I'm into this beautiful day, by the way, 50 degrees. Oh, it was just beautiful day in the suburbs of Chicago. But it was just one of those things where I think golf, even though you would argue it's not in a good place, it's got a lot of alphas. There's a little tension between all of them. Koepka and Bryson DeChambeau aren't tight. That you can sense. It's pretty palpable. You can sense the tension between some of these guys because they're all really guys guys. They're all very male. Right. And I think, I don't know, I just watched this weekend and I thought to myself, golf's in a really good place at these master at these majors.
- [27:09]
John Middlekauff
Well, I know living in Arizona, a lot of pros live here. And I play golf at tbc where a lot of these guys practice the live financial boom for the PGA Tour. And these guys has been pretty incredible for the business. I mean, the top guys have always been rich, from Arnold Palmer to Jack to Tiger. But you know, my wife was showing an open house a couple weeks ago with One of her colleagues there was like four or five million dollars. And the people looking at the open house and the guy that was showing it is in the golf world and knows these people introduces himself and realizes it's the wife of one of the caddies and she was looking for another caddy's wife. These are four or five million dollars house the ca. And this is not, you know, Rory's caddy. This is a guy probably somewhere 40 to 60 in the world. These guys, I mean Bryson, Aurora, NetJets. You see the 60th guy ain't going to the commercial airport. So the wealth on the golf tour right now has never been top down. It's an incredible time to be involved as a high end, top 100 golfer. You are an immediate millionaire and your caddy's doing well.
- [28:13]
Colin Cowherd
Well, your caddy. And also with Bryson being a YouTube sensation, everybody now understands there's influencer potential putting your stuff on YouTube. So showing a little personality is okay. So I think it's, it's, you know, they call them influencers. I think Bryson's an influencer. Like he has the ability, like a Conor McGregor in his prime that if Conor was on the card, I would just go to. I took my wife to two UFC cards so I thought it was a great weekend. The NBA 82 game grind is done. Now the real fun begins. The NBA playoffs. Love them. They're here. Time for drama. Clutch moments. Steph Curry, LeBron, jaw dropping plays. I can't wait. If you're looking to make the playoffs Even more exciting, DraftKings sportsbook has you covered. They're the official sports betting partner of the NBA, playing games all the way to the finals. Now's the time to back your favorite players and teams as they chase glory. So all season long, DraftKings been the go to spot for NBA player props. That doesn't stop now. If you want to make your playoff experience even more intense, try placing a bet on your favorite player's performance. Will they drop 30, 40, who knows? Or more. It's your call. If you're ready to place your first bet, download the DraftKings sportsbook app. Takes 90 seconds. Lock in your bets and let's make the playoffs unforgettable. Here's something special for first timers. DraftKings customers that are new bet five bucks. That's it. Five bucks and get 200 in bonus bets instantly. Just make it a playoff run to remember with DraftKings download. Their sportsbook app. Takes 90 seconds. The code's Collins C O L I N that is code Colin. New customers get 200 bucks in bonus bets. Betting just five only on DraftKings. The crown is yours.
- [29:49]
John Middlekauff
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Colin Cowherd
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John Middlekauff
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Colin Cowherd
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John Middlekauff
In Ontario, new customers only. Bonus bets expire 168 hours after issuance. For additional terms and responsible gaming resources, see DKNG Co Audio. I've got Dan Morgan here on the pod.
- [30:23]
Colin Cowherd
Say hi Dan.
- [30:24]
John Middlekauff
Hey. How's it going today? It's going good man.
- [30:27]
Colin Cowherd
Tell us who you are and what you do. I'm Dan Morgan.
- [30:30]
John Middlekauff
I'm an attorney and a managing partner at Morgan and Morgan which is America's largest injury law firm. That's pretty awesome. I think I saw a billboard of yours recently that said 20 billion one 20 billion is an insane number.
- [30:44]
Colin Cowherd
Yeah, 20 billion recovered.
- [30:45]
John Middlekauff
It's actually I think somewhere north.
- [30:47]
Colin Cowherd
Probably closer to 22, 23 after this year.
- [30:49]
John Middlekauff
And each year we get bigger and badder and our army grows. So the number will hopefully keep getting bigger and bigger as time goes on.
- [30:56]
Jason McIntyre
Awesome.
- [30:57]
John Middlekauff
So how does someone get in contact with Morgan and Morgan? What would I do if I got into an accident? Probably the easiest way is dialing pound law. That's £529 from your cell phone.
- [31:06]
Colin Cowherd
We are always open.
- [31:07]
John Middlekauff
Our call center is always waiting to take your call. 247365 wow. Dan Morgan from Morgan and Morgan, America's largest injury law firm. Thanks for coming by the show. Thanks for having me.
- [31:17]
Jason McIntyre
Visit forthepeople.com for an office near you.
- [31:20]
Colin Cowherd
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Jason McIntyre
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Colin Cowherd
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Colin Cowherd
Learn more@t mobile.com keepandswitch up to 4 lines of your virtual prepaid card.
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Jason McIntyre
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Colin Cowherd
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John Middlekauff
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Colin Cowherd
Card is no cash access and expires.
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Jason McIntyre
In six months.
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Dan Morgan
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- [34:02]
Colin Cowherd
All right, here we go. Jason Timf Hoops Tonight we got a lot to talk about as the NBA playoff start. All the odds provided by DraftKings Sportsbook, by the way, when we mention them. So I'm going to pick an upset. I'm going to go Houston Rockets over the warriors. And I don't want to do confirmation bias or recency bias because I watched them struggle against Memphis and need an inbounds gaffe by the Grizzlies to save it. But the Jonathan Kaminga piece is really a problem. So we've talked about this. It's a Highly sophisticated offense veterans work. Iguodala, kd, Andrew Bogut, they work. Steph, Clay, Draymond, they work. You can be a quirky player like Draymond Green and still be a catalyst. What doesn't work is Wiseman, Jordan Poole, D'Angelo Russell, who's a bit squirrely when he was younger and Kaminga's productive, but you can't put him on the floor with this unit. Kerr is it's do not play coach's decision and they are dying for length. I mean I watched it last night and Zach Eady is a huge problem. They don't have any length and here comes Houston. They defend the three mon Thompson gave Steph Fitz last time they played length. Now Kerr's the best coach, Curry's the best player. I am not denying that but. And if the games are close, Jason, you'll take the Warriors. Their clutch points are great. They're going to win these one point games. Like like last night's just a great example of how the warriors can manipulate the clock possessions and get better defensively when they have to. I don't like this matchup. I was looking at the odds. I don't like this matchup for the Warriors. Right now The Rockets are plus 165. Again, odds provided by DraftKings. I'm calling the upset. You think I'm crazy? Size, lack of depth, Curry dependent? What say you?
- [36:03]
Jason McIntyre
I don't want to say you're crazy. I think this is, let's just put it this way. I think that a defensive minded Rockets team is more capable of beating Golden State than say a defensive minded Magic team is capable of beating Boston. That said, I think that the other side of the floor is where it's going to become a problem. I have no doubts that Houston is going to cause problems for Golden State's offense. In their last four games they've held them to 105 or fewer and all four of them they've held him below 103 times. They, they have a bunch of different things that they do that bother them. They put Alper and Shangoon on Moses Moody, which is really smart because it allows them to put all of their three best perimeter defenders on Draymond, Jimmy and Steph and just switch any action that involves those three. Amen. Thompson is one of the most gifted athletes in terms of foot speed in the league.
- [36:52]
Colin Cowherd
He may be the best athlete in the series.
- [36:54]
Jason McIntyre
Yeah, absolutely. And the the Rockets have a zone look that worked really well against the against the Warriors a couple weeks ago. There I have no doubts that the Rockets will be able to drag the warriors offense down into the mud. Here's the problem. I think the war. I think the warriors defense is nearly as good as Houston's defense. And I think that they are more capable of doing more damage to a Shangoon, Jalen Green, Fred Van Vliet led offense than the Rockets can do to the warriors on the other end of the floor. I would not be surprised if it's a longer series. As a Lakers fan, I hope that it's very physical and that it wears them down, but I just have a really hard time believing that the Rockets are going to be able to score enough now to beat the warriors four times.
- [37:40]
Colin Cowherd
Now. They have shot better in the second half of the season. They have, they have. So there, there is. Here's the thing. Explain the Kaminga piece. So listen, I was told this years ago by an NFL executive. He says, Be very careful about the last 20 games of the season. You're going to see teams with winning streaks, half the league's tanking and half the league is resting starters for the playoffs. So the Clippers go on this great last 15 games and the warriors have that energy when Jimmy Butler arrives and they're. And they're playing bad teams and they're just rolling people and you're like, oh, my God. And I fell for it. And I said, oh, wait till Kaminga comes back. It was about three games with Kaminga in this group and Steve Kerr's like, yeah, I'm not. I did it. Why, why doesn't it work with him? Because he. I could argue he's exactly what they need against Houston. Size, athletic ability, length. They look small. Last night against Memphis.
- [38:34]
Jason McIntyre
Yeah. You know, right when the Jimmy trade went down, my. One of my initial takeaways was this is the end of Jonathan Kaminga in his time with the Golden State warriors in terms of just him being a meaningful contributor to this team. The thing is, is they were banking on Jonathan Kaminga becoming that player for the Warrior, becoming the Jimmy Butler type of player for the Warriors. The big forward that they could put next to Draymond. That would be the scoring pop alongside the starters. As soon as they got Jimmy, they no longer had a role for him anymore. You want to know why Kerr went with GI Santos last night? It's because G. Santos plays the same position, but he can count on Guy to not do anything stupid, to just play super hard, to grab every rebound he can get to take a wide open catch and shoot three. Jonathan Kaminga's upside is on the ball. If you clear the side for him and you let him go one on one facing up 18ft from the basket, he has a lot of potential in the long term to be very good at that. But he's not good enough at it now to take reps away from Steph and away from Jimmy. So all they need from him is to play defense, to knock down wide open, catch and shoot threes and to play in their read and react in the half court. And he's not very good at any of those three things. And so. So it just is kind of like a death sentence in that regard for his role here. And I do think that it's probably in the best interest of everybody involved after the season is over to look to move on from Kaminga. That said, you made a very interesting point specifically about this matchup. I understood the case for the DNPS with Kaminga for the last couple games. Super important games. You need higher floor, lower ceiling, like you need fewer mistakes.
- [40:12]
Colin Cowherd
Yes.
- [40:12]
Jason McIntyre
You couldn't take a risk with mistakes in those games. So I understood that case specifically for this matchup with Houston. They are so big and so athletic that I think it could. I think it could be a Jimmy Butler and Jonathan Kaminga type of series. I think the two of them and their athletic advantages could be something they have to lean on a lot, especially if the perimeter defense of Houston wears Steph down over the course of the series. So if I was Kerr, I would definitely give Kaminga some burn here in the first couple games of this series just to see what he's got now. If he's terrible, bail on him. Go back to your rotation that you used in the last couple of games. But I think he's an asset as an athlete that you can't afford to keep in your back pocket for a series like this.
- [40:55]
Colin Cowherd
And the Rockets are first of all. They defend the three. They got the best athlete in the series and they rebound really well. They're going to get, if Kaminga doesn't play a lot, they're going to get second. They're going to get a lot of offensive rebound. They're going to win offensive rebounding throughout this series. Looney is going to play a lot. You're going to have to play him. If you don't play Kaminga a lot, you're giving up. You're going to give up the glass and you can win a series. Losing on the, you know, in the, in the world we play in now, you know, Boston can lose the rebounding battle and hit 28 threes and they win the game by 15. But I'll tell you, I think Houston, I think, I think Houston's really going to challenge him and I think they're going to be low scoring. I think the one advantage that is clear cut and you saw it last night with the warriors. They're so good with 220 to play in a tie game. They are, they just know, I mean it's almost like, I mean you know, people grabbing and clutching staff and you have to be more careful late cause they may call a foul and it's just, they just figure out ways to get Steph really good looks. It's almost like red zone offense in the NFL where it's cluttered and jammed and yet the good teams find open people. I mean he just, I watched them and I like last night they had a great game plan jump out to a 16 point lead, 18 point lead, 20 point lead. But in the end you're like they just don't have bodies. They look incredibly small and I just think that size is going to make. I think they're the close games. Golden State wins, but I'm going to give Houston a couple of games where they just dominate the glass. The warriors look tired and they blow them out. It'll be a weird looking series.
- [42:38]
Jason McIntyre
Yeah, I said something similar in my series preview. Like I wouldn't be surprised if there was a game either early in the series like a game one or like a game five with the warriors are up three one where the Rockets just beat the heck out of them and win by like 25, 30 points. They get going in transition. They look super athletic. I'm with you overall with the warriors in the sense that like there was this stretch post deadline where they were beating everybody and yeah, the schedule was weak, but then they got a couple of impressive wins. You beat a decent Memphis team. You beat a Nuggets team without Jamal Murray. You beat that Lakers team. That was one of the biggest wins that they had all season. That was a big nationally televised, super important game for both teams that they won. But then after that it's like they lose to Houston, they lose to San Antonio, they look, they beat Portland, but then they lose to the Clippers at home in a must win game. And then last night for stretches they looked unimpressive as they were trailing in the fourth quarter. So I'm kind of up in the air with the warriors in general now because it's hard to tell how good they really are when they killed Everybody for like two months. And then for the last two weeks they've looked pretty unimpressive. So I'm kind of up in the air with them. The main reason why I've been dropping them down is in terms of where I'd rank them among contenders is I don't trust their shooting. Their shooting can go ice cold around Steph Curry. And then as you mentioned, they're a little bit vulnerable to size and physicality, which I think can cause some problems for them. I view them as a little bit more of a flawed contender now than I did two weeks ago.
- [44:03]
Colin Cowherd
All right, Lakers. All odds provided by DraftKings are -195 against the T Wolves. I think this is a very favorable Laker matchup and I think it's pretty obvious. The Timberwolves outside of Ant Edwards, he's going to have to score 40 in a couple of these games. Julius Randall has historically kind of the classic, plays hard, plays with energy. Very successful in the regular season, but everybody in the postseason plays with energy. And he. And he comes right back. He regressed. The regression's close. He's a B player who plays with a energy and that is really valuable in the regular season. And then you get to the postseason and everybody's got equal time off and he's a B player and doesn't create sometimes can get a little ball. Selfish. Go Bear is not an offensive player. Mike Conley's a play initiator but doesn't provide much offense. And the Lakers are the rare team. I mean, Boston may be the only team in the league that does this, that has three playmakers and three play initiators and at any one time can have the three best offensive players playing well on the floor. I don't think it's a good matchup for Minnesota at all. This was the bad draw in my opinion, for the T Wolves. What do you think?
- [45:13]
Jason McIntyre
I totally agree. I think there's a basic talent argument you can make for la, which is like who's better or Luca? You're taking Luca. Who's better, LeBron or Julius Randle? Yeah, you're taking LeBron.
- [45:26]
Colin Cowherd
Who.
- [45:26]
Jason McIntyre
Who's better? Austin Reeves or a Jaden McDaniels or a Rudy Gobert or Dante Divincenz taking Austin Reeves. So I think. I think the Lakers top three guys are just better. And I think that, that, that could be enough to make the case. Where I think it gets really interesting is the Timberwolves greatest strength on defense is their combination of perimeter defenders and Rudy Gobert at the rim. And the Lakers can neutralize that. Unfortunately, as we saw in the Western conference finals last year, the best perimeter defender on Minnesota, Jaden McDaniels can't guard Luka. He's too skinny. Luca can just throw him around like a rag doll. None of the perimeter defenders on Minnesota make Luca uncomfortable. And the Lakers with their five out groups with Dorian, Finney Smith instead of Jackson Hayes, they can space Rudy out to where he cannot protect the rim without conceding a wide open three. When Rudy's on the perimeter, he's still a good defender, but he's not the transcendently impactful defender he is when he can sit right underneath the basket. So I think they neutralize him. There's on the other end of the floor, the Lakers have struggled against spread out shooting like against Boston and really smart teams with speed like Golden State. Those are the teams that have really caused the Lakers issues. Post Luca trade. You know who the Lakers have not struggled with post Luca trade. Defensively, the teams that they can load up on, you can load up on the Timberwolves. They are not a good spot up team. They are a team that you can put two on the ball with ant and not get burned.
- [46:52]
Colin Cowherd
That's right.
- [46:52]
Jason McIntyre
High level playmaking. It's just I look at this as a series where just all of the strengths and weaknesses line up in a way to where I think the Lakers just have a big advantage. This was one of the few series that I picked in five games. I think the Lakers are going to beat him in five.
- [47:06]
Colin Cowherd
Yeah, I feel the same way. And the Lakers, I could be wrong on this. I think they play as good a defense as they need to. I think that when I watch them play there are times I'm like, oh, this is one of those games they really care about. And then there are other times I'm like, they're just not talking. This is one of those. They either all went out and had a nice dinner last night and Bobby Vino, they're just not that. When I watch them, I think they're as good as they want to be. Defensively, I don't think they're great but like Denver's got limitations. There's just things, I mean Jokic, there's just limitations. I think the Lakers actually have some pretty good length and defensive personnel outside of Luca. I think they'll, they'll play good defense in the D in the playoffs because they'll want to. They're a want team when they want to. I think they're Pretty capable.
- [47:54]
Jason McIntyre
Yeah. And when you're as good offensively as they've been with their best groups. And by the way, that group with Dorian, Finney, Smith and Rui next to LeBron, Luka and Austin has been torching everybody for a long time now. That unit can really score the ball so they have some margin for error on that side of the floor. It really is about LeBron. LeBron as like the orchestrator on the back line. He plays that Draymond Green esque role just telling everybody where to go, calling out out the plays as they're starting to take shape. And then Jared Vanderbilt, Rui Hachimura, Dorian, Finney, Smith. It's just a lot of six, nine rangy athletes that can cover ground. I'm not going to lie, Colin. Like the the Lakers certainly have an uphill climb and there are going to be multiple series where there'll be an underdog if they get to the third and fourth round. But this could not have broken better for them than it did. Now you only have to play one of Denver, OKC and the Clippers. Those are three of the most dangerous teams in the West. They only have to play one of them. So I think it actually broke really nicely for them here. If they can take care of business against the Timberwolves and beat whoever comes out of that Warriors Rocket series, they're right there in the, in the, against OKC in the conference finals. I think they've got a really good chance.
- [49:01]
Colin Cowherd
I said this the other day. I had actually somebody come up to me on the street and he was a former Laker. It was Sasha. And I said, I said, I said the best center I've ever seen complete player is Kareem. And I grew up with him. He was a 14:15 time all defensive team, ran the floor when he was young. Rebound unstoppable offensive force, cerebral, prickly, but could throw an elbow. You know, ask Kent Benson. I think the player he went after, he could give you everything. He was wiry but he could be physical. I think because of that defensive prowess he is better than Jokic. I think Jokic is the second most gifted center of all time. Now people would say Wilt, but Wilt was flaky. You didn't know what the effort you got. He wasn't easy to play with. You got different variations of Wilt depending on the night before and Wilt was kind of into Wilt where I think Jokic is actually a really good team player. I just think he's not engaged defensively all the time. But I, outside of Kareem, I mean generally with a center, I can say Shaq, power, Russell, defense, Akeem, footwork. I can say something. I look at Jokic and I'm like, like if Kareem, I mean, if Kareem Arvida Sabonis. Bill Walton had a baby, it's like, you know, I think Bill Walton is the one player, very briefly, not the old Walton with the Celtics who was great, but he wasn't as good as the UCLA or the Portland Walton. There was a time when Bill Walton was like the best passing big ever. The best mid range jumper, ran the floor, could be super physical, kind of weird, but I think Jokic is. I just don't think I've ever quite seen anything like him. That's my dad. I don't know if I've ever seen anything like him. Him.
- [50:58]
Jason McIntyre
He's the best offensive player I've ever seen. Colin.
- [51:01]
Colin Cowherd
Wow.
- [51:02]
Jason McIntyre
And. And I have watched and rooted for two of the greats that have ever done that or rooted for or against, I should say. I think LeBron is on the short list of guys who are in that conversation. I think Steph is on the short list of guys who are in that conversation. Having rooted for LeBron and then being terrified of Steph and rooting against him over the years, I know what it's like to be on the other end of a player who like legitimately creates a great shot almost every time down the floor. Jokic makes it look even easier than those guys do. It's the top tier playmaking piece that you get from LeBron, the inverted spacing that you get from Steph, that creates all the dunks and layups right underneath the basket, but mixed in with the lack of variance. Cause like Steph, like Steph will have games where he just can't make a shot.
- [51:50]
Colin Cowherd
Right?
- [51:50]
Jason McIntyre
You know, that doesn't happen with Jokic. Like if he gets into the five to ten foot range, it's going in two out of three times like clockwork. He's going to make it. And, and so there's a lack of variance. There's a power element to it. He can kind of audible into different players. Like it's like, okay, I'm playing the Spurs, I'm just going to post up every single time down the floor. Watch it. Watching this Clipper series, we won't see as much Jokic post ups. It's not his advantage. But guess what? He can run inverted ball screens and like literally play pick and roll as the handler out on the perimeter. He can run two man game with Jamal Murray. His versatility and dependability night tonight mixed with, with all the inverted stuff he does with the spacing. I have never seen a player make it look easier on offense than Nicola Jokic did. It like it's, it's rooting against him is absolute hell. Having had to do that over the last couple of years, I, he, he deserves a good amount of criticism for what happened to their defense this year, especially in the second half of the year. I thought he just straight up mailed it in and like you made some good points about how that might have had something to do with Mike Balone. I agree with you. But even if you just take that and set it aside, he still had one of the greatest seasons in the history of the league because he's the greatest offensive player to ever touch the floor.
- [53:03]
Colin Cowherd
Yeah, it is. You know, it's funny because Luka and him have kind of similar body types where they're in great shape. Probably you know, relative for the type.
- [53:13]
John Middlekauff
For the type.
- [53:14]
Colin Cowherd
But Luka's got a lot of her can jerk and start and stop to his game that gets open. He, he's, he's very good at. He's just keeps you constantly on his hip and off balance. You're never quite. He's not fast, but he is kind of quick for his size and he's always bouncing off you never loses kind of composure or the ball while there's contact. But it's a start stop game that's hard to, you know, that's hard to defend. Jokic just sort of rolls into you and I think a lot of players, they're like Draymond has said this. There's no real book on him because it's, it's, you know, in the NFL there's always that they always talk about that bad body offensive lineman Donald Penn as this for the Raiders. Bad body so effective. Like there was no weak spot. He was weirdly long and he had a weird ass and his shoulders were huge and it was like a bad body offensive lineman where it's like. Yeah, it's just defensive players couldn't quite figure out a weak spot. I think there's nobody else kind of quite built like him that plays like him. So you know, I mean there are certain guys in this league. I mean just think about it. If, if you did a silhouette, nobody else had the sky hook. Nobody quite moves cardio wise like Steph. I think part of what he does is no other big. When you play him, it's just okay, this is. There's no warmup. This is the only guy that plays like this. And so. And I'm not saying the league is similar, but there are a lot of twitchy, long, athletic guys who have similar moves that they've learned from camps and coaches. Right. And certain step moves. I think Jokic is a disaster to defend the body. I mean, a lot of times he just leans in and you get trapped under him around the back. You ever see this when these big guys get trapped and he gets like three looks and you just can't. You can't get your hips aligned to box him out.
- [55:18]
Jason McIntyre
You can't jump when you're connected with him. That's the thing. This is why boxing out is so important. When you box a player out, it keeps him ground bound so that you can come in from behind to get the rebound elsewhere on the floor. Floor. Similarly, Jokic does the same thing to defensive players. He's constantly dislodging you and putting you in these situations where you are not athletic because he's disrupted your base so you can't jump. And then that way he just finds these little angles for these little release points. I love the point you made about how the league has changed. Cause I found this to be really fascinating. So part of Michael Jordan's dominance was that the league was so big and slow, and so he was this lightning quick guard that could just cut through everyone, like Butterfly. Similarly with Jokic, the league is so thin and fast.
- [56:00]
Colin Cowherd
Yes.
- [56:01]
Jason McIntyre
That he's just a bowling ball that's just knocking everybody over on his way to the rim. In a weird way, like, part of it is just the timing of the era. But to his credit, because this is the thing, there are a lot of big centers that can't play in the NBA today because they can't do this or they can't do that. They struggle with this, they struggle with that. Jokic, because he's good enough in all of these other areas to be a useful NBA player, can wet weaponize his size, and all of a sudden it's like, oh, man, there's 450 players in this league, and Jo Embiid might be the only guy big enough to actually deal with him. And he's not even healthy all the time. So he just has a mismatch every single night because of the era that he plays in.
- [56:37]
Colin Cowherd
Well, it's like Derrick Henry, the running back for the Ravens. As linebackers and safeties have gotten smaller because the game is faster. Linebackers are 225. Derrick Henry's 250. So you know, 20 years ago linebackers were as big as Derrick Henry and now guys can't they just Derek is a physical mismatch and he gets a running start. And I do think that I've said it, the league over the last 12 years has become kind of the skinny jeans Euro league. Like it's a lot of centers that weigh 243 and he's just a load physically. The volume is your team still running on yesterday's tech? Time for an upgrade. The ThinkPad X1 carbon is ultralight, ultra powerful and powered by Intel Core Ultra processor so you can work, create and boost productivity all on one device. If you need security, Lenovo's ThinkShield helps protect your business from modern threats. Need smarter performance built in AI features keep things running fast and efficiently. And if you're looking for perks, Lenovo Pro gives you exclusive business benefits, extra savings and access to essential tools. Stop hitting snooze on new tech. Win the tech search for business PCs@lenovo.com.
- [57:53]
Dan Morgan
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- [58:56]
Colin Cowherd
The 40s and free agents.
- [58:57]
John Middlekauff
Podcast with Daniel Jeremiah and Greg Rosenthal.
- [59:00]
Jason McIntyre
Has prepared you for the 2025 NFL Draft.
- [59:03]
John Middlekauff
We've told you what last year's playoff teams need to return to the postseason.
- [59:06]
Colin Cowherd
And how teams with new coaches should approach the draft.
- [59:09]
John Middlekauff
So as draft season comes to a close, we've got you covered. Before your favorite favorite team goes on the clock, we'll break it all down once all 257 picks have been made.
- [59:18]
Colin Cowherd
Listen to the 40s and free agents podcast on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts.
- [59:23]
Jason McIntyre
Or wherever you get your podcasts.
- [59:27]
Colin Cowherd
We live in a divided country, and.
- [59:29]
Jason McIntyre
Our media couldn't be more polarizing. That's why we started the Middle with Jeremy Hobson. It's about bringing voices not from the.
- [59:36]
John Middlekauff
Extremes, but from the vast middle into the national conversation. Each week we hear from ordinary Americans.
- [59:42]
Jason McIntyre
From all over the country. And when you subscribe to the Middle, you also get an episode each week.
- [59:46]
Colin Cowherd
Called One Thing Trump did that focuses.
- [59:48]
John Middlekauff
On just one item from the avalanche of news.
- [59:51]
Colin Cowherd
Listen to the Middle with Jeremy Hobson on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.