← The Herd with Colin Cowherd
The Herd with Colin Cowherd
Colin Cowherd Podcast Prime Cuts - Rory McIlroy Stories, The Masters, Lakers Are COOKED, Jokic vs. Wemby
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Podcast Host
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Podcast Host/Interviewer
the volume today's show is brought to you by our presenting sponsor, American Beverage. If you think about some of the most iconic drinks in the country, the ones you grab at a barbecue, the ones you raise to celebrate your team that have been part of your story for decades. Coke, Dr. Pepper, Pepsi. There's something people don't always think about. The companies behind those brands are still making their drinks right here in the US While there's a lot of talk about bringing manufacturing back, America's beverage companies Never left. There are American companies making American products with American workers in America's hometown. So 275,000 men and women across all 50 states. Real jobs, good paying jobs, the kind of jobs you can raise a family on. So more than 100 years, those brands have been part of everyday lives and they're still here, still investing, still operating in communities around the country. So if you care about strong local economies and companies that walk the walk, check out the good work and what they're doing@wedeliverforamerica.org. Well, Alan Shipnock has been a go to author for me when I want to read about golf. He wrote Rory just finished it, the Heartache and Triumph of Golf's Most Human Superstar. It is available now. I went into the book with one idea about what Rory McElroy was, and a third of the way through the book I was learning things I did not know before. And if you're going to watch the Masters this weekend and you got some time, you're going to be in front of the tv, I strongly suggest buying the book. Rory the Heartache and Triumph of Golf's Most Human Superstar. He is also the author of 10 books. The one about Phil was so fascinating because I, I told you before I went into that book and I think the comp I said is when Oliver Stone made Wall street, he didn't like, he didn't want to make Gordon Gekko a likable character, but it translated to so many young men who wanted to be Wall Street, Wall street brokers because of the movie. And I read your fill book and I'm like, actually, he's just authentically lopsided and at times unkept and out of control. I liked Phil more, which I'm sure I don't think you cared either way, but obviously. But with Rory, I went in liking him and I've got to be honest, some of his behavior and maybe it's just, maybe it's the way golfers are because they are owners and operators of their business. I mean, they may hire a manager, but they're largely running their operation. Would it be fair to say that Rory McElroy's personality as he's aged got a little testier, a little more defensive, and it became what great golfers do to protect themselves.
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Alan Shipnock (Golf Author)
I think that's very fair. He certainly became more polarizing, but even as all that was happening, he still remained emotionally available in a way that very, very few athletes are. You know, Rory lets you into his heart. There's an impetuousness there. You see it on the golf course, you see it in the press room. You see it in his love life, his business life. That's just who he is. And I think he shares that a little bit with Phil. He doesn't have the same kind of demons that Phil does. But it's ironic because Rory, you know, he venerated Tiger as a golfer. Tiger was. Was a very. He was averse to mistakes, and he was very buttoned up as a golfer. Rory plays a game a lot more like Phil. And so, yeah, it's funny how the paths diverge, but that's part of why I wanted to write a book about Rory, because I would say five years ago, he was sort of universally beloved. He was this cute little leprechaun character who everybody enjoyed, and he was kind of. Kind of had a sweetness about him. And he has gotten more interesting. He was at the center of the storm of this, you know, battle for the soul of golf between the PGA Tour and Liv.
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Podcast Host/Interviewer
Yes, he's.
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Alan Shipnock (Golf Author)
He made it very personal. He was the biggest troll in the whole operation. He. He's taken on a lot of tough issues, whether it was the Olympics, whether it was the Ryder cup, like Rory has. Just. He's not afraid to hold back. He. He tells you what he's feeling at all times now. Sometimes he will walk it back, he will regret it. But even that, I give him credit for, because it's hard to say in public life, you made a mistake. And, you know, he'll do that. He'll say, I thought about it and I changed my mind. So you're right. He's become Spike here. But I still think he's a very appealing character. And I think the reason he resonates with fans is because there's an openness and unguardedness that's very rare and a stark contrast, you know, to Tiger.
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Podcast Host/Interviewer
Yeah, I always think Tiger became even more likable. I think he was worshiped early. But Tiger's last Masters was the one that touched me because he was vulnerable, he was flawed. And I felt the same way when Rory, 17th try won the Masters. I don't know if I've ever. Not only did I watch every shot, I canceled everything I had to do for three days. I just lived in front of a tv. And Rory's so fascinating because there are those who would say he didn't win a major in his prime for. Was it 11 years yet he had 4 majors by 25. How do we categorize this morning, this
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Alan Shipnock (Golf Author)
afternoon, his career so I'm not a playwright, but I think there's three acts to Rory's career. And act one is, he's this phenom, he's this boy wonder, he's this prodigy and he wins all his major. Like you said, he gets the number one and he has the world in the palm of his hand. And, you know, act two is this long, challenging quest to fulfill his destiny, to win the Masters, to be the greatest player of his generation, to find peace on and off the golf course, to wrestle with the complications of adult life. And, you know, him winning the Masters and then what happened to the Ryder cup, that drops the curtain on Act 2. And so to me, it's the perfect time to bring the book out because we can look at how we got here and then there's this tantalizing, like, look ahead and projecting forward what we might see. I think that Rory is very squarely in his crime and that some of his best golf is probably still in front of him because he has been so unburdened. And, you know, and I'm here in Augusta and watching him swan around Augusta national in his green jacket. Nobody's ever had more fun being defending champ. He's at the Women's Amateur. He's at the drive, chip and putt. He's holding court on the balcony of the clubhouse. There is a lightness of being to Rory that we've never seen here. He was always on a knife's edge, Masters week. And he looks so happy and so content. And I would not be the tiniest bit surprised if he goes out and shoots 62 in the first round. And because it's going to be the easiest round of golf he's ever played at Augusta National. It might be the most fun round of golf his entire life because all the pressure is off and he has fulfilled his destiny. He's a grand Slam winner. He's done something only five other men have ever done. He is in the pantheon forever. And now you can keep chasing because Rory cares deeply about his place in history and he the crown jewels. He wants to win an Open at St. Andrews. He wants to win a U.S. open at Pebble Beats. And he does not want to be a one time Masters champion. There's a lot of those guys, whether it's Charles Schwartzel or Trevor Immelman or Danny Willett. They won the Masters and they never really did anything after that. That is not Rory's destiny. He wants to win multiple jackets. He wants to go back to back. Like he wants to put his stamp on this tournament forever. So he's not done. And I think it's going to be really fun to watch the fireworks for the next portion of his career.
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Podcast Host/Interviewer
You know, Tiger, because of his upbringing was almost robotic socially. And then because of that he kind of sometimes inappropriately, oftentimes inappropriately exploded socially and did things that were just not all right with the sports world and with his family. Phil was the opposite. Phil lived large at Arizona State. Could I categorize Rory as a little bit of both? He had some of the robotics, the wrong word. A very, very aware of ascension, legacy and greatness. Like, like Tiger. And he wasn't going to let anything get in the way with it. But like Phil, he's a good looking guy, he's well built, he's, you know, he's got money, he liked to live the life that he's a little bit of a Tiger, you know, aspirational. I mean, Phil almost at times had so much fun. You worried about if he was throwing this thing at times away. Was he really just throwing with risky play? I feel Rory's, Rory's more, less emotionally remote than Tiger, but more under control than Phil. Is that a decent narrative? Yes.
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Alan Shipnock (Golf Author)
I like that it's easy to think of them together because there's no doubt that the most popular players of the last 30 plus years are Tiger, Phil and Rory. Now two of them have had their lives and their careers sidetracked by addiction, by scandal, by greed, by vice. And Rory has somehow he's wobbled a little bit, he's wavered a little, but he's managed to maintain his dignity and he's moved through the world with a certain ease and a certain grace. And that's why people are endeared to him because he's, he's not a maniac like Phil. He's, he's not a robot like Tiger. And you know, Rory likes the finer things in life. He has the jets and the, and the watches and his dad always has a fancy watch, like, but you know, deep down they're a blue collar family from a scrappy little town outside of Belfast and they've never forgotten where they've come from. And you know, Rory, he's, he's close to his parents. He talks about their influence all the time. His closest friends are all guys he grew up with. Like, they keep it real for him and they love to take the piss, as they say over in Ireland. Like, they give him a hard time and whereas, you know, Phil could have these, he could be magnanimous and he could say and do the right things, but you never knew if it was real, if it was all an act. It was all puffery with Rory, you know, it's from the heart. And Tiger was an introvert. That was the source of a lot of his awkwardness. He didn't like crowds, people.
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Sports Analyst/Commentator
Yes.
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Alan Shipnock (Golf Author)
He was never comfortable in that, this role that was thrust upon him. Rory loves people. He's an entertainer. When you see him at dinner, he's always got 10 people around him. He's always making them laugh. They'll always pick up the check. He's just good company. And so when you look at them as a trio, I think, you know, even though Tiger has all the trophies and you know, Phil's won more tournaments than Rory, I think both of them would gladly trade lives with Rory, who is universally beloved and respected. And his body's not smashed up. He's, he's not a victim of, of these large scale controversies. He hasn't been arrested, he hasn't been investigated for insider trading. Like, he's just, it's a life well lived. And in this, to grow up in the, in, in the white hot spotlight. Spotlight as he did. I think it's, it's the book, I think, has a feel good tenor to it. And that was honestly something I wanted because I don't want to write the same thing over and over. Like, the Mickelson book was super controversial. The follow up, Live and Let Die, was very overheated and bitchy. Like, I don't want to repeat myself. And that was partly, I think, why I was drawn to Rory. Because it is a feel good story and I think it's okay to celebrate him and the way he's lived his life.
- [14:54]
Podcast Host/Interviewer
Rory's obviously thought about his place in history. You write about it. Final chapter. Where is he all time?
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Alan Shipnock (Golf Author)
Yeah, I mean, I lay this all in the last chapter of the book. I mean, he's already clearly one of the dozen greatest players of all time. And even there's, there's three legends in front of him with six majors and Rory has five. It, it's Faldo, it's Mickelson, it's Lee Trevino. But in my mind, he's already surpassed them because of the scale of what he's done. You know, Phil never got to number one. He never won a money title. Rory's won three money titles in the US and seven in Europe. He spent, you know, many, many weeks at number one. He, his global impact. He's won everywhere. I mean, he's the greatest global golfer since Gary Player. And it's in a much different media era. Like, Rory's impact is far beyond Nick Fo, who only won four times in the U.S. now, three of them were Masters. But, you know, he, and so he's in very rarefied air. And there's a cute bit because I asked people that and I asked Patrick Harrington, who's Roy's friend and mentor and went to. And he said, oh, I know the answer. Because on Rory's wedding night, after he had a bunch of wine, I asked him what he was chasing. And Rory said, you know, the number he's always had in his head is nine major championships. And there's a strange power when you speak that into existence. And by that metric, he's barely halfway there. And if Rory gets to nine, which I think is very doable given his longevity, he's one of the five greatest golfers of all time. There's zero doubt. And so, you know, he's, he's ascending up, you know, Mount Nicholas to, to this, this, this role as one of the all time greats. And he's most of the way there. But it's tantalizing to think about because, you know, Rory's longevity, he's been in the top 20 of the world ranking for over 850 weeks. Like it's, it's unheard of. You know, Phil was the gold standard. He was in the front ranks of the game for 30 years. But Rory's basically two thirds of the way there and, and he's not slowing down. He, he takes great care of his body. He's got one of those long swings that kind of hold up like a Phil, like a Sam Snead. And, you know, it was a big deal when he won the Irish Open because he'd had that summertime swoon and that the Irish Open at the end of the summer kind of rekindled Rory's joy and his passion. And I thought his comments were so important because after he won, he didn't say, this means so much to me and this is so important to my career. He said, it just, it's so gratifying to win this for all these fans and to give them what they wanted. And I think he knows now that he, he's playing for something bigger than himself. Like he carries the hopes of and the dreams of many golf fans and as he's become their Tiger, and even these young players now, they grew up idolizing Rory and he feels the weight of that. And he doesn't want to let people down. He wants to keep going and he wants to keep thrilling them. He's a bit of a ham and a show off. He wants to hit the great shot and that's what he cares about. And I think when if you're chasing this larger purpose like he wants to inspire kids on the Irish island, I think that helps you get up and practice. When he doesn't, he wouldn't really need the motivation. He has nothing left to prove. He has the money, he has all of it. But this sense that he was born with this gift and he was put on this earth to thrill the rest of us, I think that propels him forward and I really think that a lot of Rory's best golf is in front of him. And it's fun to think about that.
- [18:28]
Podcast Host/Interviewer
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Podcast Host/Interviewer
Oh, no.
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Liberty Mutual Advertiser
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Podcast Host
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Podcast Host/Interviewer
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- [23:14]
Podcast Host/Interviewer
The Oklahoma City game is the biggest, most disastrous regular season game for a single team in the history of, like, April. So Luke is out, Austin Reeves is hurt, and I did see pushback on J.J. redick, and I wanted to defend him. He inherited a lopsided roster. They have to score a lot of points to win. So when The Lakers are 15 and 2 in March, nobody was criticizing J.J. redick, because the truth is, he looked at it and thought, listen, we got some winnable games here. And these guys, because of Austin Reed's early season injury, hadn't played a ton of games together. So he started. He. You know, he played big minutes for Luca. Some nights LeBron and some nights Austin and it. They have to win with offense. And Luka's body crashed. He got. You know, he just. It crashed. It wasn't a big collision. So I. My take was, guys, is Austin was hurt early. LeBron's old. When you had this march to gain momentum in minutes in chemistry, JJ Took advantage of it. So I can't bury him for that.
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Sports Analyst/Commentator
Yeah, you know, I thought that the criticism of JJ that was going around was kind of ridiculous, too, because, you know, I watched as someone who roots for the team, I've watched every single Lakers game this year. There were dozens and dozens and dozens of times where I would see Luca, like, kind of reach down to his leg or, like, kind of limp or grimace a little bit. Like, he. He just did that a lot and, like, always played through it. And so I don't. Like, I remember when I was watching the OKC game in the beginning, I'm like, oh, he's doing that again. But it wasn't like you were expecting, like, if that was something that he hadn't done all season, and then he did that, and then JJ Left him in the Game. Now we're having a different kind of discussion, but Luca just kind of always seemed to do that. Even if you guys remember the 2024 final, he was limping from kind of a bulky knee through that entire playoff run, just like, kind of favoring it, grimacing, grabbing at it. Like, it's just kind of something that Luca does. And, you know, as you mentioned there, the. The crit. The valid criticism that I think is there, and I think there's context to this, but the valid criticism is that in the month of March, The Lakers played 17 games, which was like an absolutely insane schedule. They're right now, I think, seven games up on Phoenix for the play in. It's either seven or nine. It's like a large gap. They were not in any sort of danger of falling into the play in tournament, so they were in pretty solid in the standings. And yet the only two players in the NBA who played more minutes per game than. Than Austin and Luca in the month of March were Tyrese Maxey and Amend Thompson. So literally, Tyrese young guys. Yeah. Tyrese Maxey, who played six games and because he was dealing with an injury. And then Amen Thompson, who is quite possibly the greatest athlete in the entire NBA right now. Like, that's the two guys. So there. So part of me is like, yeah, that's a little weird, but the points you made are valid. One, they really wanted the three seed. Why? They wanted to have an opportunity to avoid Oklahom City in round two.
- [26:05]
Alan Shipnock (Golf Author)
Yes.
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Sports Analyst/Commentator
And they. And they wanted home court advantage. And there was a relatively small gap between them and Minnesota and Houston in that bottom group, so they were going for that. And as you mentioned, one of the big things that kind of percolated through the season was the lack of opportunity for them to get their big three together. So I think he was pushing that. So, like, even when I look at the minute load, I go, you know, maybe it should have been 35, 36 minutes a game instead of 37. But now I feel like we're playing the results a little bit too, because, like, Austin's injury was kind of a contact injury. When he was going a rebound, it looked like he got hit from behind. And again, Luca, literally two days before the injury, there was like a report from somebody close to his camp that was saying he was in the best shape he's ever been in. So it's like, it's hard to. It's hard to kind of like play both sides of that based on the results. Sometimes dudes just get hurt. Now What I do think is fascinating is there is like a, an actual divide that is occurring between Shea and Jokic and Luca in the just their ability to stay on the floor like Shay and Jokic have a remarkable level of reliability. You can trust them not just to be on the floor, but to be near their best athletically through these seasons and through to the finish line. Even just Jokic missing, you know, basically less than a month with that knee injury was like kind of unusual for him. And he looks great now. He looks fantastic. He might be the best player in the world. Like from what we saw on Saturday. You look at Luca, he's unable to finish this season. Last year he was badly overweight and had a soft tissue injury. So on back to back seasons with substantial soft tissue injuries, as I mentioned through the entire 2024 playoff run, he was favoring his knee, kind of limping around, bulking at that knee. Had a very borderline embarrassing defensive performance in the NBA Finals. And then in 2023 they missed the playoffs in large part because he kept getting banged up towards the tail end of the year, kept missing time and he couldn't stay on the floor. So like I think durability is just one of the more underrated superstar traits, you know. Colin, there was this debate between Steph and LeBron about Steph and LeBron going around yesterday because Bill Simmons had this take about, about Steph Curry that was going viral and Stephans were correctly pointing out that Steph was hurt in 2016. He had yet a little bit of a knee injury. And all I could think is like, yeah, that's one of the many reasons why LeBron was better. Because for the first 17 years of his career, you quite literally never had to worry about whether or not he was going to be physically prepared for a playoff series. And so I do think that as much as this year was a step forward for Luca, there's even another level he can get to in caring for his body.
- [28:37]
Ferguson Home Advertiser
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- [28:39]
Podcast Host/Interviewer
So when the Luca trade Dallas to LA happened I said have had they included two first round picks because Luca was hurt for the second year in a row. Doesn't defend ball centric which hurts comes playoff time. I said if they'd included, you know, with the Anthony Davis, Max Christie, two to three first round picks. I get it. I did not get it without it. But let's look at the Luca deal now. Last year 40 year old LeBron was more dependable because he was in. Luca was in so, so shape. This year Luca had Really good stats will not be available probably for the playoffs. And so again, an injury, which he had several his last two years in Dallas. So, and this is something I've said, I've always said Luca is a better Carmelo and Carmelo's a Hall of Famer and Carmelo's a bucket. Carmelo never. I. All my favorite basketball players of my life. Larry Bird, Michael Jordan, Kobe, LeBron. You can go to all of them. I love Kareem. When I was a kid, Dr. J. They made an effort defensively. They really did. Steph tries, he's just, he's not big, he's not great. And they've protected him. But when you look at that trade now, I still wouldn't have made it. But it does make you think, okay, like Nico Harrison was thinking, he's going to age really quickly. For the record, Jason, you know who else has aged really quickly? Anthony Davis, like two years ago were like best defensive player in the league. Now you're like, it's over.
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Sports Analyst/Commentator
Did you see the stat that Lucas Luca scored more points in March than AD and it has in a Mavericks jersey since the trade.
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Podcast Host/Interviewer
I mean, he's literally, Anthony Davis has fallen off a cliff. And now because of the tournament, maybe many people maybe didn't see Denver beat San Antonio 136 to 134 in overtime. That game was so wild. One of the most impressive stats, they shot 49 free throws. They made a combined 44. I mean, it was like, you're talking about brilliant basketball. I still think Jokic is the best player in the world. And my takeaway in that game is, is it fair to wonder when you watch that game, you know, if you keep it close to San Antonio in the playoffs, you don't try. You don't quite trust them yet. They're really young and they listen. They could have won. It went to overtime. Do you have a little bit of you thinking they should have won that game? They had chances to seal it. They got a lot of 22, 23 year olds. Any part of you think that.
- [31:28]
Sports Analyst/Commentator
Yeah, you know, it's funny to your very point that you're making there. I, I have changed my perspective when I evaluate playoff teams from like, this is what they do or like speaking in the absolutes to more like, this is how it could go wrong. Like San Antonio. San Antonio is definitely good enough to win the title. Yes, they're. They're definitely good enough. And, and that I'm. That. That to me is a significant leap for a team that basically has no playoff experience from their core rotation. Guys like normally you'd completely write a team off in that case. And I think they have a legitimate chance. So. But, but if San Antonio loses, that's what it's going to look like. And essentially what I'm looking at there is both Cam Johnson and Aaron Gordon late in the game. And individual isolation defense on Wemby were able to get up underneath him, prevent him from turning the corner and kind of force him into these janky kind of contact fade away jump shots that are like pretty low percentage shots. And now five years from now, Wemby might be money on those and then everyone's screwed. But for now he's not a super efficient, you know, pull up mid range shooter against physicality. So if you can put a forward up underneath Wemby, you can keep him away from the rim and ISO. You also saw Nicole Jokic was guarding their guards all game. And just like you guys can shoot all the threes you want, I'm going to sit right here underneath the basket. And so that gave them the ability to do some switching on the ball screens that the San Antonio was running. And all of a sudden it's like, oh yeah, their best ball handler is probably Deer and Fox and he's not even a top 25 player in the NBA. And where it gets tricky is like, because I actually rewatched the game this morning because it was just, it was just an all time great regular season game and I couldn't wait to dive into it. And Colin, there is like a very good chance they play each other in the second round because because of the Austin Reeves injury, the Lakers will almost certainly fall to four, which means Denver will move up to three. San Antonio, because they lost is now three games back of okc. So San Antonio will most likely be the two. So unless there's an upset in the first round for either of those teams, we're going to get San Antonio Denver in round two.
- [33:35]
Podcast Host/Interviewer
Wow.
- [33:35]
Sports Analyst/Commentator
And yeah, and which will be amazing. But as I was watching that, I'm sitting there thinking like down the stretch that game through either Jokic post ups or Jamal Murray Jokic two man game. The spurs could not turn Denver over and they couldn't stop him from getting a great shot. They, they literally couldn't stop him.
- [33:53]
Podcast Host/Interviewer
Couldn't.
- [33:55]
Sports Analyst/Commentator
The stat of the night, Colin. They. The spurs have a 110 defensive rating this year, which is the third best in the entire NBA. Last night when Jokic was on the floor, the, The Nuggets scored 136 points per 100 possessions. So they were annihilating that spurs defense. And you saw down the stretch, it was just they were either getting a wide open three for Cam Johnson or for one of their other role players or Jokic one on one in the post. Jokic scored one on one on Wemby six times in that game. That is insane. We're talking about possibly the greatest defensive player ever and he straight up could not guard Jokic one on one. So there's this, there's this dynamic where you're like, okay, Denver is going to walk you down and get great shots. We all know with okc, Shea is going to walk you down and get great shots for himself. With San Antonio, you could tell they just didn't really know what they wanted to do down the street. It's like, all right, yep, let's go to Wemby one on one. Well, he's going to take another fade away because Aaron Gordon is so much stronger than him. He's like up underneath and it's like, we can go to Darren Fox. He'll get to this like kind of tough pull up jump shot, but he's just nowhere near as good at that as Jamal Murray or Shay Gilbert Alexander or any of these guys. Now I do think they should have gone to Steph Castle a little more down the stretch. He just is so much more physically imposing. But even then we're talking about a second year player. And so again, if San Antonio loses, that's what it will look like. A close game where the opponent is able to get to shots that they like consistently and they look like they just don't quite have the top end ball handling to hang
- [35:25]
Podcast Host/Interviewer
the volume.
- [35:27]
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- [35:36]
Podcast Host/Interviewer
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- [35:38]
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- [35:43]
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- [35:44]
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- [35:58]
Podcast Host
is an iHeart podcast guarantee human.