← The Herd with Colin Cowherd
The Herd with Colin Cowherd
Prime Cuts - SGA Is A “Midrange Maven”, KD Trade, NBA Draft, College Football
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- [00:00]
Colin Cowherd
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- [01:49]
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- [02:50]
Colin Cowherd
The volume at the end of the season, there's only one team that can call themselves NBA champs. Only one player that can call themselves the number one pick in the NFL draft. Well, there's only one electric SUV worthy of the title. The ultimate. The all electric BMW ix. What I love about the IX is that it delivers legendary BMW performance. I've had several. While its sleek design exudes innovative style from the inside out, not to mention how much space and utility it provides. Over 75 cubic feet of cargo space. The IX is completely changing the game with an all electric suv. The greatest legends of sports never compromise any part of the game. So why would you settle for anything less from your suv? After all, there's only one ultimate. The BMW ix. Everything you love about the ultimate driving machine. Electrified BMW. And you know, I was thinking about this as you were talking about sj, sga. Usually, let's say for instance, Shaq wasn't hitting his free throws. He still had all time power. If Kobe and MJ weren't hitting their jumper, they could go vertical. Magic Johnson struggling from the field, he just had a size advantage. He'd back you down. SGA is not a vertical player. So if he's off and he's off center, he doesn't have power, he doesn't have speed, he doesn't have. He's not a, he's not, you know, he's strong for his size. He's not a vertical player. He is a mid range maven. Like he is all time stuff. And so, you know, I've said before is he's an all time scorer, but he doesn't feel like he's in the curry class where you're like, wow, I've never seen a human like Caitlin Clark's got some of that. You're like, I've never seen that right sga. I've seen it. Alex English, Kiki Vandeway. He's just better at it. And so I do think, you know, when you play better teams and you can get him off his game, he has a very centralized game. He's tremendous at it. But I think we'd both admit he needs a friendly whistle. And because he's so gifted, he almost always gets it. It's not like the hardened whistle, which is like that feels illegal. That's not it. It's like that feels unstoppable is different than it feels illegal. But he is I love him. I love his maturity. He's just a smart, hardworking kid. He's impossible not to root for. I know everybody doesn't like all the flopping, but I have a hard time not rooting for guys who are more mature than their age with completely refined games where I can see the work ethic, I can see the years you've toiled in a gym that to me as a grinder, like I, I love that kind of basketball and I think that's what he embodies.
- [05:48]
Jason McIntyre
Yeah, I think it's fascinating because at his age, you know, being 26, he's kind of in this weird role that's reminiscent of some of the roles that you've seen guys like Tom Brady and LeBron B. In where like they're the elder statesman in the locker room. He's the elder statesman in the locker. At 26 years old. It's such a bizarre dynamic. But to, to like for if he was an immature player at 26, this whole thing could fall apart because of the youth in that locker room. And he just brings that, that, that veteran presence. This is a perfect time for us to get into the Microsoft bit and I'm going to kick it back to you. So welcome to Course Correction brought to you guys by Microsoft. Just like star players and teams navigating performance hurdles and business decision makers today are under immense pressure to get things right. They must rise to the occasion, turning challenges into opportunities. Microsoft empowers these visionaries with AI solutions, simplified cloud and data management and trustworthy, responsible AI. And when you're in the NBA, you have your own hurdles to face. In this segment, we will highlight the player every week that has risen to the occasion when his team has needed him. Whatever challenge you're facing, Microsoft empowers you with the expertise to say bring it on. Our player of the week this week is the 2025 NBA Finals MVP. It is now official. Shay Gilgis, Alexander. Colin, I was thinking about a cool way to frame this segment and all I could think about is like you mentioned with the Washington Bullets roster, you know everything for me as I'm talking about all time greats is kind of played through this lens of when I started really following the league closely, which for me was in the like around 2005, 2006. You've been watching a lot of NBA basketball for a really long time. You've seen a lot of stars come through the league as young players leave the league as vets. What has been like your first impression of Shay Gilgis? Alexander as a playoff performer in the.
- [07:42]
Colin Cowherd
NBA that if I go back to Kareem and the sky hook which was unstoppable, unblockable and he mastered a shot. I'd never seen a player that master a shot. When I first watched Kareem, I can remember as a kid in my backyard doing it like nobody else shot the hook. Michael Jordan's mid range game, if you look at a lot of the great players beyond just scores, they are the master of their domain. Like I do what I do and they're all different looking. There was no other, there was no other Kareem. You know, they're. David Thompson was a little Michael, but Michael's mid range game, he had three or four stock moves. You know, Tim Duncan, the great fundamental is that a lot of the all time great players, and I've said this about Mahomes, can be boring. They have mastered what they do, frustratingly so. And I look at a player who knows exactly what he is, but more importantly he knows what he's not. And he leans into all of his skills and I think when you watch them play, they can be uneven offensively. The greatest thing I can say about sga, he's their clear dominant number one score. So when you play them, I don't have to pick Tony Parker, Duncan, Manu, it's like stop him. And people can't. I mean that to me is a fastball like that. You know, you can beat them and J dub can have 32 or Chet could have 24 or Lou Dort hits five threes. But the numbers are if he gets to the free throw line, they win. Everybody in the league knows it and they can't stop him. Like that is precision, that is mastering a craft and I just have great respect for that.
- [09:42]
Jason McIntyre
Yeah. The Duncan comp is super fascinating to me because Shay doesn't have some super den demonstrative personality on the court. He lacks a vertical element to his game. There's nothing that like, like as people who play a lot of basketball like I, I've stolen little bits of footwork and, and moves from him that I think are useful moves for young players to work on. He's, he's brought his own little kind of unique flair to the two guard position. Just like Harden did, just like Wade did, just like Kobe did, just like MJ did. He's got his own like kind of unique take on it, but similar to Duncan, even if there wasn't that, you know, overwhelming optical appeal, it's just surgically effective.
- [10:20]
Colin Cowherd
Yeah.
- [10:21]
Jason McIntyre
And no matter what happened in this playoff run, the most reliable play type out there was give the ball to Shay at the nail and he's probably going to either draw a foul or get to a mid range jump shot that he can hit about 55% of the time. And you know, you know, Colin, it has not been a perfect NBA Finals for him. He had some rough games. But here's the thing. Just about every star struggles in their first NBA Finals. LeBron struggled in his first two NBA Finals. It, it is an impossible stage to be to, to be. I shouldn't say it's impossible. It's a very difficult stage to perform well in. And to his credit, every single moment in this series where things could have gone south. So like game two, you're down one. Oh, you lose that game, series is probably over. Game four, you're down to one, you lose that game, series is probably over. Game five, two, two, you lose that game, series is probably over. In Game 7, series tied. If you lose that game, obviously the series is over. In every one of those games. I thought he was awesome. This is actually a hilarious stat. Colin. In the four games where I thought he played poorly, which was game one, game three, game four and game six, in those games, he combined for just nine assists. Okay, just nine in those four games. You. In the other three games, in game two, in game five and in game seven, he had 30, 30 assists. He averaged 10 in those three games. And if you watched those games from the start, just surgical and precise with the way he was navigating the late double teams, the help at the rim, making the kickouts to three point shooters, the roll man, whether it's Hartenstein or Chad, I thought Shay, to his credit, every time the team needed him to be great in the series and he was great. And I think that is the stereotypical finals MVP performance. I thought he thoroughly deserved it. And most players don't even do this well in their first time around.
- [12:10]
Colin Cowherd
Well, my, my first impression, The Suns were 3 and 17. When KD didn't play this year, they stumped. It wasn't him. He still get a bucket? If he's a leader in Houston, it doesn't work. If you need a bucket in Houston, it works. And I think, I think today you have to look at the Rockets. My take is he's going to give you about 65 games in the regular season. If we get two healthy years, then everybody's going to watch Houston vie for the NBA championship and feel like they dominated the trade. It is, however, a very good Draft. So Phoenix gets the number 210 pick. Well, many people are theorizing there are 12 players in this draft, the top 12 players who are all star potential. So if they stay at 10 or move up to 6 or 8, they're getting a potentially really good player, probably with more than one year in college. And again, I don't think anybody will ever unlock Jalen Green. Like, I think he's the classic, doesn't have a defined game, never, probably will. But we can't deny that he can drop 30 in any given moment, that he's wildly talented. I don't like his game, but I'm not going to deny that he's, you know, long, twitchy, fast, very good transition player. He's just. And there are a lot of these guys in the NBA, you know, they come in and they're talented and maybe either they don't work on their game or they don't get the right coaching or they just, they probably have so much talent from sixth grade on that they never really. There's no catalyst for them to like really burrow down on a specialized. You know, not everybody is as driven as mj, right? Like, not. I'm reading the Caitlin Clark book. I mean, that girl's. She is mj. She's obsessed. And it's just like, not everybody's like that. Some people are just talented and so. But between Amen Thompson and Shen Goon, it's a beautiful touch. Kevin Durant and a series of four or five very good young players. And I think Adoka is a very good coach. That's a real team. But I, but I, but I think it's easy to look at Phoenix and just go, well, they got Green's productive. Dylan Brooks is a very good small forward defender, can give you 17 a night. You got the number 10 pick, you got a bunch of second round picks, which you can turn those into things. Phoenix wanted a little bit of a reboot, they got it. But people on the Internet are like, oh, Houston dominated. If Katie got hurt in game 36, it wouldn't feel like Houston dominated. Right? They're not bringing him there to be a foundational piece. They're bringing him in to get a bucket. Like, he will not be the leader of. Shen Goon will still be the, I think the centerpiece of the team. Amen. Thompson will be your best athlete and your defensive stopper. He's going to be a bucket guy. So that's why I think it works. He's still one of the top 23, 26 best players in the league, I would argue. I mean I was on the plane when I was flying in today, I started writing down numbers and I got to like 21. I'm like, he's in that space. And again, Phoenix was terrible when he didn't play. So that's my long winded answer on I think Houston will look like they won the trade, but Phoenix got assets too.
- [15:28]
Jason McIntyre
I think that what happened in Phoenix is a sign that like yeah, kd, Steph lebron, these guys, they're not floor raisers anymore. At their age, they're not going to turn a bad roster into a 50 win team the way that 27 year old Nikola Jokic could like that. That goes without saying. I don't. I do think though that KD has been dramatically underrated because he's been on such a poor roster.
- [15:51]
Colin Cowherd
Yes.
- [15:52]
Jason McIntyre
I put this together for you Colin. This is three stats to show that Kevin Durant is still one of the very best players in the NBA. He was the best jump shooter in the world this year among 58 players in the NBA to take at least 500 jump shots. KD was the only player in the league to make over half of them and he in second place was Shea who made 45%. And if you waited it for threes, his 1.22 points per shot was still number one in the NBA. Number two, he was the only player in the NBA last year to make at least 200 pull up jump shots, meaning off the dribble while making more than half of them in three. He was far and away the best isolation player in the world last year out of the 10 players ran at least 250 ISOs. His 1.16 points per possession, including passes, ranked number one in the league, a full six points per 100 possessions ahead of Shay who is in second place. I think he is. When it comes to refined offensive skill, he is still one of the very best players in the league. I would put him in that 6 to 15 range depending on and we haven't seen him play enough high leverage basketball lately to see where he really lands in there. But I think he's still in that range. And if you ask me what the Rockets issue was, this is a deep team with a load of big physical athletes. If you ask me what their one week weakness was, it's refined offensive skill. And that's what KD comes in to address. We were just talking about this with Desmond Bane in the Orlando Magic the other day. Yeah, when you take a bunch of big athletes that kind of struggle with spacing and you bring in a guy who like just run him off a screen and he's automatically going to pull two defenders out 30ft from the basket. It unlocks a world of possibilities on the short roll. Amend Thompson will be an amazing short roll player. You know that thing that Draymond Green did for Steph where Steph would come off of Draymond and take two players and then Draymond would go right down the middle of the floor and, and make the play that broke the defense down. That is a thing that Amend Thompson has been unable to do in Houston because they just don't generate many of those opportunities because none of their shooters are good enough. KD will unlock that part of Amend Thompson's game. It is not a perfect roster. I was writing down all the names on the roster today. They're a little light on ball handling, but that sort of thing they can get. You know what's so funny, Colin? I remember when they the sun signed Tyus Jones last summer, I was like, why? You already have this redundancy of all these dudes who can dribble and you're just not athletic enough and you're not good enough on defense. Like, you need athletes and dudes that can like, like beat up people in these physical environments. You know who could really use Tyus Jones? Houston, like, I, I, I think they should call, I think Kevin Durant should call up Ty is tomorrow and be like, hey, dude, come with me.
- [18:21]
Colin Cowherd
Yeah, I think, I think Phoenix. I wish Phoenix would have gotten actually a size. I think Phoenix needs size and I think Houston needs a ball handler. And the, our takeaway when we watch Golden State beat Houston, we were like, God, they're so bad at the half court offense. If you stop Shen Goon, it's over. Right? Like, it's just. And so you and I talked about this. He was a perfect. I thought he worked in New York because of Jalen Brunson's, you know, has the ball a lot in his hands. I thought he, he would work with that offense, whereas Cat can kind of. I always felt like Cat and Brunson were playing, you know, your turn, my turn, your turn, my turn. KD is kind of like, I'll sit in the, I did it with Russ Westbrook. I'll sit in the corner. Get it to me eventually. So I think he fits really, really well. And I think they have the coach. I think, again, it's so hard to judge Houston because so much of their roster is young. I like Feel like everybody's in the fourth inning. Like, I mean, amen. Thompson could take a big leap. I mean, Sengun's the only one where I look at him and I think, oh, that again. I use this word a lot, but that's a defined and refined offensive game. He's got European touch, like he has a game. A lot of their players, I feel like they're just in early innings. I don't know what they are. So, amen. Thompson's obviously defensively defined. He's so strong and athletic and aggressive. But KD gives them refinement. This is a second offensive player. I know exactly what I'm getting. And that goes back to a little Oklahoma City. One of the reasons Indiana gave OKC problems. Siakam has an offensive half court game. Halliburton does. T.J. mcConnell does. Like, that's three guys. Even Obie Toppin, when he hits threes, you're like, he's athletic and hit threes. They had guys that they. Rick Carlisle knew. Okay, this is what this player does with Houston. Houston's like a younger okc. I'm just not sure what everybody is like. I just need more guys than I go into a game and go, yeah, I'm going to get 24 tonight from KD and I can draw up two or three plays for him. So Houston to me is early innings. They could end up being. They could end up looking. If you told me next year, a team explodes in the west and ends up winning by 7.8 points, I would guess Houston because they have so many players that are just going to springboard to another level here in the next 50 to 100 basketball games.
- [20:42]
Jason McIntyre
Oh, no, I totally agree. I think they have massive upside. I think they could very easily be the second best team in the west and the biggest threat to the Thunder next year. I think that's absolutely on the table. They match up well with okc too, because they have all the big physical size. The ball handling will be the weakness. As we saw with Indiana, even Oklahoma City struggled because of their lack of depth in ball handling against Indiana's ball pressure. But the, the youth, the, the, the thing that you're talking about in terms of the wide range of outcomes is super interesting because as I was breaking down their depth chart today, I'm looking at it and I'm like, okay, Fred Van Vliet, legit point guard, you know, Shangoon Center. KD's your four. Amen. Thompson, I think defensively functions as either a two or a three. So, yeah, that that could be either. But then it's like Jabari Smith Jr. Is kind of a four. He plays basically the same position as Katie. I don't think he moves his feet well enough to be a three. Cam Whitmore could be one of those guys. Reed shepherd could be one of those guys. But like, who knows? And, and here's the other thing too. Colin Houston gave up one first round draft pick in this deal. They still have a boatload of first round draft picks at their disposal. So they're high. They're like a high likelihood for like we bring this team into camp, we watch them for 20 games and we go, oh, here are the two things we're missing.
- [21:53]
Colin Cowherd
That's exactly right.
- [21:54]
Jason McIntyre
Let's go get what we need to get. Like they are, they are extremely well equipped heading into this next season.
- [21:59]
Colin Cowherd
That's where Houston won the trade. They didn't have to give up another first round pick. That's where they won the trade. It's not just KD because my guess is because of their depth, they won't play KD more than like 60 to 65 games. They want him for the postseason. There's no reason to play him 75, 80 games because they also know if you're in the West, Jason, you know you're going to be in long series. So there's no, you know, you're going to be in six game series in the West. It's not like the east where you kind of feel like if Halliburton comes back next year, they're just certain you're going to win a lot of series really quickly. You going to have long series in the west, no reason to have, you know, I want KD going into the playoffs, you know, off about a two games and nine day stretch, healthy and ready to go. And I think you have to think about that as a GM with an older player. In the west, if you have a Steph or a kd, all these series are long series.
- [22:53]
Jason McIntyre
If they get a couple more ball handlers, like that's the thing, like if they get a Tyus Jones, if they get, you know, one other guy of that ilk, then they will be able to rest Katie, not just for the regular season, but even in the postseason. Like we saw Houston give themselves a really good chance to win games even without high level offensive skill because they just go, here's Tari Eason and, and Amen Thompson and we're picking up full court and you're turning the ball over now and it's a mess. Like they are able. Like they are able to prevent the redundancy that Phoenix had, where you have a bunch of guys who do the same thing on Houston. What KD does is so specialized for them that they kind of have an identity separate, separate from him. So they will be able to win games without him. They will be able to carry the load so that he can come in and lift them over the top. I think it's a. I think it's a fantastic, on paper, basketball fit. It'll be ugly sometimes. Katie's gonna have some nights where maybe the statistical performance isn't there because it's ugly. They can't space the floor as well for him, but they will in turn do the same thing to the other team. So what, to buy Kevin that margin for error before we get outta here tonight. Colin, I, I did, I did want to run this by you because I've seen a lot of victory lapping criticism. You know, let's just say the Phoenix Suns have been the butt of the joke today because they took Mikhail Bridges and Cam Johnson and Chris Paul and they turned them into basically Bradley Beal and Dylan Brooks and Jalen Green and one first round pick. I get that it looks bad. Here is where. This is where my brain went this morning. They. They made it to the finals. A year where because of COVID everyone was hurt. And we had a Trey Young Hawks team in the conference finals, a Paul George Clippers team with an injured Kawhi in the conference finals, and that Suns team, and by the way, they ran into Giannis and Giannis beat them four straight times for the title. So they weren't good enough. Then the next year they kind of have a great regular season and Luka, like, embarrasses them, like, embarrasses them for the world to see in the second round. They weren't good enough. So they made an aggressive trade. They went and got Kevin Durant. Every one of us would have done the same thing at that point in time. It was Kevin Durant and we had just seen him be so amazing for Brooklyn in those couple of previous playoff runs. Even the Chris Paul thing. Now, I would argue they should have used Chris Paul's salary as a vehicle with which to bring in more size and athleticism. But, like, you're like Chris Paul for Bradley Beal. Like, I mean, come on, right? You, like, you could talk yourself into it again, it wasn't perfect. There were mistakes. There are certain things I would have done differently. But now we're on the other side of this. And it's like self awareness. We're not good enough. We just missed the playoffs in the Western Conference. Like Katie misses a few games and we completely fall apart. Like I understand it looks bad when you zoom out, but to me what happened to Phoenix is just what happens when you get aggressive and it doesn't work.
- [25:57]
Colin Cowherd
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- [28:58]
Doug Gottlieb
Jim looks like a five trip load at least.
- [29:00]
Colin Cowherd
He grabs the first bag the second Bob.
- [29:02]
Jason McIntyre
It looks like he's trying to do it all in one trip.
- [29:04]
Colin Cowherd
He shimmies the door open, steps over the dog. Oh, and he stumbles. Oh, right into the kitchen without missing a beat. Jim, now that's a man who eats his protein packed Oikos with 15 grams of complete protein in each cup. Oos Triple Zero can help build strength for every day. OOS stronger makes everything better. So I said today on the show, I said, listen, I'm not going to come in hot on the draft because it's a projection draft. Yeah, I'm, I'm like, yeah. I mean I just, I said I think Cooper Flag's really good. I think he's a more aggressive, better defender right now at this point than Tatum. I said, I think he's really good. He's not good as Tatum. He's really good. The kid from Baylor, he's a disruptor defensively. Looks like he's going 1,000 miles an hour. I'm like, that's an NBA athlete. Is he going to score a lot? I don't know. I thought the spurs did pretty well. You know what I do think and I've talked about this a lot and I want your reaction. I've been on this now for about two months. There was about a 20 year period. So you and I grew up with the Big east. And if you were a great player in the Big East, Pearl Washington, sort of an exception or if you're a great team, you were going to be an NBA player. Ewing was going to be great in the NBA. I mean just the way it was. There was about a 20 year run in college basketball when the G League happened, guys went to Europe, played one year of college where like Doug McDermott was the college player of the year, Tyler Hansborough was. You go to the Pros and they were rotational guys. And then two years ago I watched UConn and I went, oh shit, there's seven NBA players. They have NBA length. They're a great, these are great players. And I thought, oh, that team could play with UNLV and Duke. That is a real team. And the reason it happened was guys are staying maybe a year longer with nil Now American universities are poaching European players. I honestly feel like the last two years when I've watched college, we had a 20 year period. We were trying to pretend the sport was good. And Jay Billis said this the other day, NBA guys don't miss open shots. Like it's just the seven foot guy shoots better than the six two guy in college. And I do feel like the NIL for all the bitching about it. Rick Matino said this the other day. It's kind of made the G League irrelevant. Shit, I watched the playoffs. Indiana, Oklahoma City, no G League guys. I mean, Amen. Thompson's one of the only G League unite guys. It's like the second two year college guys. Three year college guys. Chet Holmgren one year, probably should have stayed a second because his offensive games hit and miss. But I do feel like the last two years I've watched college and I think this will help the draft, Ryan, because it won't all be Euros. It'll even the Euros are coming and playing now at Texas, they're coming to play at Connecticut. I feel like college basketball was kind of unwatchable for 20 years and people kept saying, oh, it's great. It wasn't, it was diluted, it was bad. In the last two years I've been glued to March Madness and it's just more NBA dudes.
- [32:12]
Doug Gottlieb
College basketball is in a weird spot because, you know, growing up I probably would rather watch Big Monday than NBA. You know, back when it was the Big east and then, you know, it was pack 10 teams that were loaded with NBA players. You know, going back to those UCLA squads. Remember Washington State, loving that team that year, Robbie Calgill. Well, I guess you want to talk about the NBA guys, so shout out to Robbie. But I, I, I'm, I'm with you because I, I think I even remember like you and Gottlieb arguing a bit about it being like, hey look, college basketball is largely irrelevant up until we get to March. And with everything feeling like it has to be an event, which I think Silver's doing with the NBA, it's like, hey, we've got the in season tournament. We've got plan. Like, we have more almost like specialty events that we can partner in different ways. Like, we're kind of just titling some of the same stuff, but, you know, if this means more revenue, then that's the game. And even though, like, I've talked about baseball with this being like, hey, be really happy you're this incredibly successful local market thing and that your playoffs are an incredible product, and you just hope that you have enough storylines to carry over that secondary interest, that the tournament doesn't necessarily need all these crazy story lines because the event itself is still one of the greatest sporting events in the world. But you're right to point out, like, whether it was ignite. You know, with Scoop, they had Dyson, had Hardy, Jam, Green, Kaminga, and then you had the Amen Assar Thompson deal with overtime. I think. Yeah, it, it felt. It was starting to feel like, okay, this is, this is like, even more tenuous for a, for a product that was already really struggling with its regular season in college basketball. So I think the tournament has always been something everybody's always going to care about because it's basically like a football version of gambling in a different sport where it's just so much fun and you almost feel left out of American society if you're not in the tournament. I don't know that they're ever going to recover any of that stuff from the regular season, but the draft trends of what was happening with guys circumventing college because of the compensation, going to New Zealand, you know, playing in the Australian League and then come back here. Like, it hurt the draft wise for you to have eight. What college guys before SN Gay? Well, SN Gay went 11th, so. Well, no, Colin went well. You went 11th.
- [34:39]
Colin Cowherd
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
- [34:42]
Doug Gottlieb
The other guy went ninth to Toronto. And even Jagor Demon, you know, he comes from Russia, but he's at BYU because of the NIL stuff, whatever it was. And I don't, I don't know all of a sudden if everybody's going to be prioritizing regular season college basketball over the NBA. But there was something that was incredibly fearful as these other alternatives that the NIL has helped college basketball solve in the short term.
- [35:11]
Colin Cowherd
Yeah, no, I just, I watched the draft last night and I watched UConn a couple years ago and I watched March Madness and I'm like, okay, I'm back into the sport. Like. And I, I have always been sort of loyal to the number. Like, I stopped talking college football for about 10 years because it was Alabama, Clemson and Georgia And I felt like nobody, Denver west gives a, you know what? And when the, when I remember when the PAC 12, sort of when USC decided we're going and UCLA, I got a call. I was in Turks and Caicos with my family. Eric Shanks called me and said, just want to give you a heads up. This is going to be announced in about three hours. I was in an airport and I couldn't tell anybody, but I started doing some social and having our staff get ready for it. And I remember thinking, oh, I can talk college. I can talk college football again. You know, like, oh, USC is going to a conference. And then, and then there was a lot of talk even then about Washington, Oregon getting in. I'm like, okay, that's a real conference that they'll be able to compete. They'll get some Midwest kids, they'll get Big Ten money. They'll be more fortified because the PAC 12 was paying you 30 million a year. Big Tens pan you 70. USC was complaining to me. It's like, we, we, we, we can't compete with anybody. We don't, we don't have the money. And so like, I, I feel like, you know, you know, I just follow what the audience is following. And I would see those numbers for Alabama couldn't sell off some home games. I would see some of those numbers and it was like people were getting tired of it. I was getting tired of it.
- [36:36]
Doug Gottlieb
So Alabama, though, I don't know. I'm going to push back on that. Alabama was an incredibly spoiled fan base to the point where Saban had to beg fans for day games to come in on some of those lower level matchups because they just expected a national championship every time. I mean, it's the only campus that I'd ever been to when I used to travel for college game day because I did the radio part of it, along with tv, where it was the only, it was the only campus. I'd be like, oh, game day's here again. Like, whatever. You know, let's. I'm going to, I'm going to sleep in, you know, every other place. It's like a, not even a national holiday because, you know, it might not ever be coming back. So as you say that, though, like, let's be honest. Would you have avoided talking college football based on some numbers if you were still at ESPN? Because I sensed an sec 10 shift there, buddy, when you started, when you started working somewhere else?
- [37:25]
Colin Cowherd
No. Well, no, I would, I would say this is. That clat is, is, is a big. I've noticed and so, yeah, so I'm. I was always. I said this for years. SEC is the best. They. They went on recruiting day. They went on Dr. They went on Saturday. That's the best. I don't want to hear it. But I did notice about four years ago, and when the NIL started and there's a lot of money in those Big Ten schools. Those are 60,000 student body. A lot of those graduates do very well. I started noticing, like, four years ago. I'm like, yeah, people are poaching Georgia and Bama, and they're. They don't like. I think Nick Saban realized, like, before Texas came in, it's like, oh, Texas is bigger than Alabama. Texas looks better than Alabama. So about four years ago, I started saying. And then it was the. It was the Harbaugh team before they won. I'm like, yeah, I think that's. They're as good as Georgia. Like, I'm watching the Saturday, and I'm like, they got like 10 NFL guys, you know, all over the field. Georgia maybe has 12. So I do think about four years ago, I just watched the games, and it's like, you know, when I first started watching Caitlin Clark, I was just like, well, shit, she's shooting from 33ft. That doesn't even make. I mean, the line's 22. So I tend to trust my eyes. And when the Big Ten, When Harbaugh's team the year before they won, I was like, oh, they caught up. At least the top of the Big Ten is as good as the top is the sec.
- [38:51]
Doug Gottlieb
Yeah, I've heard this. I actually think people are, like, more unfair and how they critique the SEC than it is about being pro sec. Because I just see a lot of media members that all have Big Ten backgrounds that have been, like, incredibly celebratory about what's happened the last couple of years. Now I've heard the NIL theory. I think Saban would have figured it out if he was motivated to figure it out. But he may have been right. He's been there since 2009. Or no, 2007. Excuse me, 2007. That first year where they lost to Louisiana, Monroe. So no, I'm trying to remember if I have that year right. I feel like. I feel like I'm messing up a year because I would have been on college game day for Tuberville Iron Bowl. They got smoked. I think that would have been 2008. So anyway, I gotta look that up.
- [39:41]
Colin Cowherd
I need.
- [39:41]
Doug Gottlieb
I need more results. I need more parity. I mean, I Need more balance. Because, you know, the people that didn't like the SEC still didn't like the SEC when they had seven different national, or, excuse me, seven national championships in a row. You could run through four or five programs. You're like, okay, they could win a national championship. They're playing for a national championship. It didn't feel like the other conferences could be that deep. Certainly the Big Ten is in the conversation now, especially when you add a team like Oregon. You could say, hey, you're also adding Washington, who plays in a national championship two years ago. So that puts them on the probable list, even if that is probably more of an aberration for that program and just having an incredible year where everything kind of came together. So you might be entirely right about the balance of it, of it flattening out the top here a little bit. But I guess for the people that I know hated the SEC so much, they were still arguing against the conference when they were winning all these titles. And so now if the standard is.
- [40:34]
Colin Cowherd
That, yeah, I wasn't one of those.
- [40:36]
Doug Gottlieb
Standards that the big. I was won back to back with two different teams the first time in 80 years, then the thing that you said didn't even matter when they were winning is now the thing that matters the most. Because you could also, you could also just say, hey, the SEC had an awful quarterback here. So maybe there is this shift, a shift that's long overdue. You know, sports are cyclical. Maybe the Big Ten is about to have this incredible run. But it's very hard for me to say that because of the national championship results. And look, Tennessee looked just fucking frigid against Ohio State. That looked like a football team that was not interested in competing. And they get trucked in that game. I just have a hard time with, like, the people that do this for a living that are on the evaluation side, they're like, that's still the best conference. Like, are you like, what's, what's going on?
- [41:28]
Colin Cowherd
Well, I think the sixth best team, I think. I think I will say this year, I think about the sixth best team in the Big Ten will be Washington. And I think the sixth best team in the SEC could be Oklahoma. And so that, to me, is where about. I think about where we're at. I think. I think they're both. And if they played, it's a go either way game. Whoever is at home wins, because I think Penn State's going to win it. I have, I picked. I remember when Ohio State lost to Michigan, I said my favorite Part about college football is Ohio State's going to lose as a 20 point favorite in their last big game and they're going to get into the tournament. And by the way, Kansas City, the year that won the Super bowl two years ago, got beat by Oakland in like Week 16 or Las Vegas. And I'm like, yeah, they should be in the playoffs. I don't care. Just like put the best teams in. I got Penn State winning it. Singleton's amazing. Drew Aller's getting better. I think they're the best backfield by a mile in college sports.
- [42:25]
Doug Gottlieb
Just to clean it up, it was 2008. Iron Bull. Tuberville did get smoked and that was his last season. So that's. I remember just being down there for that. But Saban had already been there, obviously the previous year when he had the bad record. And people were like, is this guy really going to be that good?
- [42:39]
Colin Cowherd
He's really good on tv, by the way.
- [42:42]
Doug Gottlieb
Yeah, I think he, you know, I think he wants to. He takes it really seriously.
- [42:50]
Colin Cowherd
Yes.
- [42:50]
Doug Gottlieb
Yeah.
- [42:50]
Colin Cowherd
Like, he's, he's in them, you know.
- [42:52]
Doug Gottlieb
I know a couple guys that are really close with him that are with them all the time when they're on the road. And he is like, adamant about making sure the stuff that he's talking about, like, he's, he's not just out there. Like, he, he cares. He actually cares. Like, what are we doing? How are we doing it? Which actually makes the most sense ever. If you know anything about the guy where. I remember this story because I've been down there a bunch of different times and I really loved. I just have so much respect for Saban. I, I've loved interviewing him. I always hated any Belichick comp. Because I was like, Belichick is not interesting. Like, he goes out of his way to not be interesting and that's like the game he's playing. And Saban is really thoughtful and for whatever reason, people try to like, lump them in because they were both successful and had kind of this type.
- [43:37]
Colin Cowherd
They're not the same guy.
- [43:39]
Doug Gottlieb
And look, I think the world is Saban. And it seems like whatever he's going to do, he wants to make sure, like, okay, what's, what's the best possible way for us to go ahead and do it? Which is exactly the way he runs a football program.
- [43:53]
Jason McIntyre
Wait.
- [43:54]
Colin Cowherd
Well, yeah, it's when I, Urban Meyer is a friend of mine and like, Urban watches film. Did I ever tell you my Urban. And that's when Urban comes on the show. Mine, like, He. I will talk to him before the break. I'm like, have you w. He will have watched film. I never forget years ago when LSU played Ohio State. Jim Trestle was the coach. And I. I saw Urban. I can. I can tell this story now. I saw Urban in. I think he was at Florida or was leaving or. I forget what it was, but he. I think he was at Florida at the time.
- [44:24]
Doug Gottlieb
Yeah. Because they had just won the national championship the year before.
- [44:30]
Colin Cowherd
Yep. And they were. LSU was playing Ohio State, and I caught. I caught him in the hallway. He went on for about eight minutes. He literally described the game. He said, ohio State will move the ball early. Mo Claret had a big run early, I think for a touchdown. He said, Ultimately, LSU's got about twice as many good receivers, twice as many good running backs. They'll wear them down, they'll pull away in the second half, and they'll win by like 14. And he went like, for eight to 10 minutes. He literally. I mean, he'd watched film for both teams. He literally. He recited the game. So I took that and went on the game and talked about the game, basically using all his stuff and say, hey, listen, I just talked to somebody I trust, blah, blah, blah. It made me sound so smart. But he. I like these ex coaches because a lot of times, I mean, Sable will watch film before that Saturday show. Urban will go and watch film and break it down like a coach, and it's it. And they're so freed. Right. There's no pressure. They're watching film now without an agenda, not to protect anything. And I think both those guys provide something, that film knowledge that's really valuable to me as a consumer.
- [45:40]
Doug Gottlieb
Yeah. So LSU wanted in 07 when they had the second loss. Remember, that was the year in 2007 where UCF Boston College was ranked number two. West Virginia, if they beaten pit. It's still one of my favorite college football years ever, because whenever you go through any, like, the research packets for an upcoming weekend, it'll be like, this is the last time. The last time this happened was in 2007. Because, like, 2007 was a free for all. And even though LSU had that second loss, they're like, look, just going to vote this team back in. I remember Trestle after the fact saying, that was a game when we were preparing for it, we knew we had no chance. And then they lose to Ohio State, and, excuse me, Ohio State loses to Florida the next year. And that was the thing. Like, this is the Big Ten argument. This is the pro Big Ten argument that for years we were conditioned. Like, remember the Alabama, Michigan State games where you would just go, Jesus.
- [46:29]
Colin Cowherd
Oh, right, 34, nothing. You're 35, seven.
- [46:32]
Doug Gottlieb
That isn't happening as much anymore. Okay? And that's not just about the Michigan and Ohio State national championships. And I think they're kind of like, further, the point is that we, we may be on the cusp of this thing that, like, is real. It's just so hard for me to think that, like, there's going to be another region.
- [46:51]
Colin Cowherd
You know why, though? So here's my take on this. Alabama is doing car washes and bake sales, and Ohio State's not Big Ten schools. Most SEC schools are smaller schools. I think Auburn's like, is it 16,000, 18,000? Wisconsin, Ohio State, Michigan.
- [47:09]
Doug Gottlieb
Those are like small cities, man. I mean, it's nuts.
- [47:13]
Colin Cowherd
And they, all those graduates go all across America and they go to New York and LA and they make a bunch of money and they give it back. It's much easier for these Big Ten schools. I mean, USC's now spending $20 million, nil. Their 20, 26 class. They just went and bought this insane class. And that's just because of nil. That's not because they suddenly figured out how to recruit. They've got money. And so now the Big Ten's got Seattle, Los Angeles, Columbus. These are massive. I mean, Penn State's got Philadelphia and New York graduates everywhere. SEC is a lot of small towns. And I just don't think the NIL money. I mean, I just don't think they have the NIL money in most instances. I think Georgia does, but I don't think a lot of teams do. Georgia's also closest to the biggest city in the South, Atlanta, where there's more money, more attorneys, more doctors, more, you know, venture capitalists in Atlanta in the south. And they're Georgia.
- [48:15]
Doug Gottlieb
I do think sometimes too, you'll have, you know, it's a very human nature thing, but you become motivated by something that you don't think you can get as opposed to expecting it. Right. I mean, it's the king of the mountain analogy here where, you know, as Georgia is motivated to spend when they put together these, these runs, like, what if Alabama's not in the playoff for 10 year? What do you think? Like, what do you think that NIL is going to be like? Or whatever, you know, like Ohio State after losing to Michigan before the season. And it's still. This is one of the things, I think with college football that even though people Love the expansion. I don't. It's more of a reflection of how much I hate the realignment. I've already done these rants far too many times. But I'm watching your network and it's Ohio State, Michigan, and the broadcast is like, this is for everything. And it's like, yeah, except it isn't, because Ohio State's going to lose this and then win a national championship. And I will forever miss that. That is not on the line. But yes, it doesn't ruin my enjoyment of this incredible rivalry and what was like an ugly, awesome, just a brutal game. And you know, the emotions that game are just like, they're on the TV screen. It's a awesome product. But when I think about, you know, Ohio State this past off season and grabbing Caleb Downs as soon as Saban's out of there, going to get Will Howard, which, you know, at the time, remember, like the summer was a bit of an argument, like, hey, well, if he was that special, like, why is this guy leaving K State and all these things? And it just works. And we knew that it was supposedly this $20 million program. Is this about Ohio State should always be able to fund all this stuff. You name the top blue blood programs, the places where it matters the most. I don't know that this is ever going to be an issue, but there is something about that void. There is something about feeling like this is bullshit, that motivates you in a way that's. That's just hard to replicate when you're used to all of the success. So I think that's what'll probably happen amongst the top schools. It's just a matter of, like, how many of these top programs do you think will have access to maybe a spending spree? And look, apparently now we have a cap at 20 million for an entire academic department. Yeah, good luck figuring that one out. Good luck being the tennis coach.
- [50:27]
Jason McIntyre
You.
- [50:27]
Doug Gottlieb
Know, like, hey, really, like this kid from Choate. You're like, yeah, well, we. Our guy needs a six defensive back, so. Sorry. Yeah.
- [50:38]
Colin Cowherd
That thing a bit of a circus? Yeah, well, I. I told you it was only gonna take 30 minutes, but that's not. We can't talk for 30. This thing's already gone an hour. Sorry, I didn't mean to do that. I really didn't. I want. I know you're busy. I know you gotta do like 16 local hits in Spokane.
- [50:53]
Doug Gottlieb
Best available.
- [50:54]
Colin Cowherd
I feel terrible.
- [50:55]
Doug Gottlieb
Are the Sonics coming back so well? No, man, I just love, love talking to you. You know how I feel? About you. So whatever you need.
- [51:03]
Colin Cowherd
Same here. All right, buddy. Appreciate it. The volume summer is here and you can now get almost anything you need for your sunny days delivered with Uber Eats. Now, what do we mean by almost? Well, you can't get a well groomed lawn delivered, but you can get chicken parm delivered. A nice tan. Sorry, A box fan? Happily, yes. A day of sunshine? No. A box of fine wines, yes. Uber Eats can definitely get you that. Get almost, almost anything delivered with Uber Eats. Order now. Alcohol in select markets. Product availability may vary by region. See app for details on the latest episode of Next Question with Me, Katie Couric. I sat down with Jasmine Crockett, Democratic representative of Texas. She's holding now for her party in one of the most conservative states in the union. I think that ultimately who will become the Democratic nominee for president will be someone that has been out there and has shown that they won't allow themselves to be punched and just say thank you like they will punch back. Listen to Next Question with me, Katie Couric on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. This is an iHeart podcast.