← The Herd with Colin Cowherd
The Herd with Colin Cowherd
Colin Cowherd Podcast Prime Cuts - Stafford Stays In LA, Jerry Sinking The Cowboys, Butler Has Rejuvenated Warriors + Curry
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- [00:00]
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- [00:51]
Colin Cowherd
This is so good.
- [00:52]
American Express Representative
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- [01:07]
Steph Curry
The Greatest Shooter of All time, Steph Curry. We went live from All Star Weekend for a new podcast called Go Greatest of Their Era and we ranked our top five shooters from the 2000s major five.
- [01:20]
Marcus Thompson
Dirk Ford Asia is a loot.
- [01:22]
Steph Curry
You won't believe who Steph left off his list.
- [01:24]
Podcast Co-Host
That's so tough. That's why we tap these conversations. Love it.
- [01:28]
Steph Curry
Listen to Go G O T E Greatest of Their era on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.
- [01:36]
Greg Rosenthal
What's up everyone? It's Greg Rosenthal and I'm teaming up with the King of Spring, Daniel Jeremiah. He requires me to say that we're going to be bringing you 40s and free agents the only podcast you'll need this NFL draft season. From DJs mock drafts to my top 101 free agents will have it covered for you with all new episodes every Thursday keeping you up to date as we head to the NFL Draft. Listen to 40s and free agents starting on March 6th on the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcast or wherever you get your podcast the Volume.
- [02:16]
Colin Cowherd
My buddy, former NFL scout John Midkoff. His podcast is three and out. So I it was interesting. I got a I got a text today from NFL executive. Apparently the Rams were willing to move off Stafford, but they wanted a first round pick. They wanted and by the way, the Raiders were going to give him 100 million guaranteed, which I still think that'll be the upgrade the Rams make. But it just to throw it out there. The Rams were willing to make a move if they could have two first round picks. What do you make of that? I trust my intel. It's somebody pretty tied to the situation. What do you make of that?
- [03:05]
NFL Analyst
So you're saying that they would not have traded into the Raiders for, let's say, a couple seconds?
- [03:09]
Colin Cowherd
Nope. They wanted a first. But it's interesting they're so close to the Super Bowl. It is interesting that they would have considered that. Now, you know, this is somebody that is close to it. So it, it, it's interesting. I, it's so hard to get close to the Super Bowl. Right. Like, thank God The Niners have 12 picks this year. So that should fortify them and make. Give them another run because they've got, you know, secondary and O line issues. But it's, it's even great teams. I mean, dynasties close hard. Like, like you're watching Kansas City this year and you're like they're struggling to score points for the second year in a row. I just. It is interesting they would have considered moving him for a first.
- [03:52]
NFL Analyst
Well, I think Sean McVeigh was very candid last week when he was with his guy Whitworth's podcast and he was open to say, listen, we can't quantify this guy's value to us on the field, but we can off the field when it comes to our salary cap. And we have limitations with a guy who's 37 years old.
- [04:11]
Colin Cowherd
Yeah.
- [04:11]
NFL Analyst
And I think you used to have a line. Was it. You can't. There's not a happy, happier or something.
- [04:18]
Colin Cowherd
Yeah. Don't try to get happier than happy.
- [04:21]
NFL Analyst
And I thought this with Matt Stafford now, if they would have acquiesced and a team would have traded picks that would have made the Rams happy, would he have given the thumbs up instead of taking the one year 40. We'll see what the, you know, in a week what the number actually turns out to be. I think that it's not public. Kind of shows you that, you know, the Rams didn't just give him $110 million. Right. They, and I think Sean McVeigh said today on McAfee, that's year to year thing.
- [04:47]
Colin Cowherd
Yeah.
- [04:47]
NFL Analyst
Right. So I would imagine they gave him a little bump up in raise. But. But relative to the rest of the league, he's not making what he's making. My take was this. I'm not into telling someone to quote unquote, take a pay cut or what money means to them, but he's accumulated before this season even starts. $360 million. Right. So I would imagine he's if his accountant's done pretty well. I know he's got a big family, probably nine figures in the bank and working for him in investments like Matt Stafford's doing really, really well. Not only will he never think about it, his family never will. So it doesn't get any better than Sean McVeigh, does it? Why would he want to leave?
- [05:24]
Colin Cowherd
Well, it's just I saw a story today where Fred couple said that Brooks Koepka, if he could, if he could, would go back to the PGA Tour from the LIV golf. And again, I think, I do think generational wealth does make you happy for maybe 12 months. You get this kind of money, you set up trusts with your kids or you buy that third home if you're Brooks Koepka and that fourth car. And it does give you a sense of independence. But ultimately people, John, not to be Tony Robbins here. People like to be part of something. It's not just the money. The PGA Tour is part of something and it's an established something and there's credibility with it. That's not a shot at the LIV Tour which I've def. But the Rams are something in Los Angeles. Well owned, well run, well coached. Right now, the Raiders are a dream of what could be. The Rams are something. So I think I've always said this. Don't chase money, chase good management and you'll eventually make good money. Maybe not great money, but good money.
- [06:29]
NFL Analyst
Yeah. And I think if you use the live guys as an example, Phil got a couple hundred million dollars but he was already worth hundreds of millions of dollars.
- [06:38]
Colin Cowherd
Right.
- [06:38]
NFL Analyst
His was more of an fu to the establishment.
- [06:41]
Colin Cowherd
Right.
- [06:41]
NFL Analyst
DeChambeau, Brooks and D.J. these guys are not NBA NFL players. So they get offered 100 to 180 million dollars. It is hard. That changes their life. Matt Stafford making an extra $50 million. I mean you're talking after taxes or whatever he's taken home 28, $30 million is not going to change him or his family's life at all. But it will impact his football life. Which like you said the Raiders or the Giants which were the teams that look like all in are not going to win next year. It's just not going to happen.
- [07:09]
Marcus Thompson
Right.
- [07:10]
NFL Analyst
I don't even think it's possible with the Raiders. Right. You just to compete in that division even if you have a huge upgrade at coach. I think Spytac is a young up and comer. But to think 20 and Matt Stafford is living in the moment. So to me, the risk of getting the extra money, if it would have gone through, would have sent him backwards. I think in his football career. What we saw forever in Detroit, he finally, I felt like when he got to Sean McVay, got to validate the career. This guy with all this talent, honestly, these last couple years, even more than the super bowl year, it was like Matt Stafford, I mean, doesn't get much better than that. And I think it would have kind of been sad because it would have impacted the Rams. I'm sorry, Jimmy Garoppolo or 41 year old Aaron Rodgers, it would have been a drop off for Matt Stafford. So I'm just glad that it, that he stayed and it worked out from a football standpoint because this, they have a good off season, a couple of moves here and there. I mean, who's to say that they are, you know, top two or three favorite in the NFC to be a, you know, win the super bowl or represent the NFC in the Super Bowl.
- [08:11]
Colin Cowherd
Yeah, I mean, I think, I think that game against Philadelphia says it all. They're driving in a snowstorm and they get down to the 15 yard line and they have a rookie center, six round pick and, and they had finally gotten their offensive line right. And by the way, Philadelphia was a better team, better overall personnel. They almost snuck out of that puppy with a W. And, and so, and I've said this, McVeigh doesn't really rebuild. Shanahan feels like he, he follows up great seasons with clunkers. If like Christian McCaffrey is not healthy, McVay wins every year. It's just they don't really, they reboot, they don't necessarily rebuild. The. I was saying it, I think, you.
- [08:49]
NFL Analyst
Know, you know, one major difference, I think the two right now is McVeigh has. I, I thought Kyle, because of his personality would be a little more cutthroat. He's been emotional when it came to Debo resigning him and keeping him. Last year with Iuk McVeigh, it's like Jalen Ramsey cut you off. See you Cooper cup this year. We're moving on right this offseason. Stafford, one year deal, that's it. Where it's like the Niners found themselves in this weird predicament of they've got emotional with some of these players and McVeigh kind of went to his grandpa's roots of Walsh. It's like, yeah, we're done here. And he's had to tactfully change, you know, with Goff, he was a little too outspoken, and even he said that, like, I handled that wrong publicly. But this is a business. We have to make tough decisions. And I think the 49ers found themselves in a rut because they tied themselves to every single player instead of, you know, in football, the guy can be a good player, but you got to pivot. You can't sign them all.
- [09:44]
Colin Cowherd
Well, I mean, Philadelphia is in that spot right now. Darius Slay is an easy cut. That's an easy one. You and I, any fan could make that because they nailed their two. You know, they're two early picks at corners. Right. The tougher pick is going to be, do you keep the linebacker? Do you keep A.J. brown? And I've said this before, I would move off A.J. brown. It's in the NBA when a big guy gets hurt early, he gets hurt often. When a receiver is verbal and outspoken early, they're outspoken often. DEZ Bryant didn't get quieter. Right. So Debo didn't get quiet. Quieter. I would move off A.J. brown. Because you're so good at running back, o line, quarterback, tight end, and Devonte Smith, I think that's an easy one. But. But you don't want to think like a fan. But I think people will look at A.J. brown and go, he's so good. It's wide receiver. You can find really Pukinaku as a fifth rounder. I mean, there's one or two positions in the NFL. Cornerback, wide receiver, running back. It's amazing how much talent there is in the fourth rounder round. Like, there's all sorts of examples. So I like, I look at Philadelphia and Howie Roseman who, by the way, you know the organization, he said after the super bowl, this is going to look different. Not everybody's going to love it. So to me, that was. That was a little bit of a caution, guys. We're moving off some popular, talented guys. You don't say that. If you just have to cut Darius Slay, that's an easy one that nobody's losing sleep on.
- [11:11]
NFL Analyst
Yeah. To me, the AJ Brown one would only be if they feel that relationship, that Brandon Graham kind of let the cat out of the bag and then they tried to walk it back. It's like, come on. But, you know, winning cures all in their relationship. I mean, he had a touchdown in the playoffs. He is, when, when healthy, one of the best, what, four, five, six wide receivers in the league. I think the only way they would do something like that would be to clear up some movement. If they could get Miles Garrett. And by all accounts, they are going to be one of the lead dogs in those moves. So I think the thing with Zach Vaughn, this is what makes Howie, and I would just say consistent football teams maintain it or not. It's like, yeah, he's a good guy. He had an incredible season. But are we going to break the bank for a linebacker? And his history would say the Eagles and good teams do not.
- [12:01]
Colin Cowherd
That's right.
- [12:01]
NFL Analyst
Right. Let someone else give you four years, $80 million and $45 million guaranteed. And this is why you keep drafting and why you keep investing and listening. Part of being a good NFL team. Take some luck sometimes. You got a guy, one year, $4 million, first team all pro. That's why you pay Vic Fangio five, $6 million. You know, that's he. Last year he looked at this guy, special teamer, kind of outside linebacker. Let's make him a middle linebacker under my tutelage. Patrick Willis, Navarro, Bowman, let's roll. So if I was Howie, I'd go, well, my return on investment is not the player, it's the coach. Why couldn't I do this again? Why can't we find a guy in the draft, maybe on the second day, second or third round, let Fangio mold him like a piece of clay. He did it with Navarro, Bowman. Why couldn't he? That's the best case scenario. But no one in a million years in the NFL would have said, Zach Vaughn, first team all pro, middle linebacker, no chance. And that's that. You know football more than all these other sports. The power of these coordinators, if you get it right, I mean, look at Spagnola, look at some of the offensive coordinators over the years can change your franchise, right?
- [13:08]
Colin Cowherd
Because it's.
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NFL Analyst
You're not paying them player money, you're paying them 4, 5, 6 million dollars.
- [13:12]
Colin Cowherd
It's amazing to me how fans really, really struggle. And like, to me, A.J. brown and Bonner, the linebacker are pretty easy moves because I'm not going to disrupt that O line probably for the next three years. I'm. I mean, I'm. That old line. Maybe in two to three years, Lane Johnson retires. But the core of that organization to me is now Saquon, Jalen Hurts and that O line. Everything else to me, I'll move. But you're finding this with Detroit. It's really. I mean, think how great people thought Dak was. I mean, people really thought Dak was a top five quarterback. When the Cowboys O line five years ago, those guys were all closer to Their prime. Now we look up and go, jesus, Dax. The most overpaid guy in the NFL by a long shot. So, you know, I just think when I look at, like when Tyreek Hill, Andy Reid moved off him, I never forget the day it happened. I was like, yeah, of course you move off him. Like, you got. Look at the picks. That guy at the time, I'm like, first round, second round, second round. I'm like, brett Feach is going to hit on at least half of these. Of course, you make the move. He's a deep threat. Those guys don't mean much in December and January when it's freezing and windy. So, I mean, the AJ Brown one is easy. I'll go back to it. When a receiver, Debo's a prime example, when they start getting outspoken early, that doesn't go backwards. And you're. And by the way, you won with him. You got to a couple Super Bowls. Like, I also think there's. There at some point in a salary cap sport, players become commodities. Like, and there's just, you know, you have to move them. They're chess pieces. And you say, well, where's the humanity? Come on, we all know the game here. This is the way it is with pro sports. By the way, in college now, kids leave their program all the time. They make promises, they commit, they leave. We all know this is how the game works.
- [15:06]
NFL Analyst
Well, the one thing with AJ Too, if that would be something they wanted to do, he still has a lot of value. He's still one of the best players in the league. I mean, you're not, you're not just kicking him away like Debo for a fifth round pick. It might bring you back like a second and a third.
- [15:19]
Colin Cowherd
Yeah, right.
- [15:20]
NFL Analyst
I don't, I don't know if you could get. I mean, they traded a first forum. Could they get a late first? I mean, some of those teams don't have the most cap room, but you definitely probably get a second and a third.
- [15:30]
Colin Cowherd
Yep.
- [15:30]
NFL Analyst
You know, depends. I think there's always other moves. He's not just getting rid of a player to get rid of a player. You know, that Milton Williams, the defensive tackle that really came on, they would love to keep, but guys like that, he's going to get $20 million a year.
- [15:42]
Colin Cowherd
That's right.
- [15:43]
NFL Analyst
So I think they're always thinking, the one thing the Eagles have been like since before I got there and ever since long after I left, they will go big game hunting. I'm telling you, if Miles Garrett, this is the Browns, can say all they want. We're not moving on. And listen, I would understand if you're a well run a competitive but given the desean's situation, this is a time to just blow the thing up. And to me he would net you multiple first round picks. So if that if he's available, I think the Eagles would be front and center with the package of things that they would put in front of them to land that player and their owner. And how you manipulate the salary cap is you pay these insane bonus. Right, right. It's everyone plays under the same umbrella of the cap but I can cut you a bigger signing bonus and that's where guys sign up for.
- [16:32]
Colin Cowherd
Yeah. And for the record, fans tend to think all these owners are even. No, they're not. Stan Kroenke, Jeffrey Lurie. The Denver Broncos can pay more up front than a majority of the teams. I mean the Chicago Bears are just not an organization. I mean the packers have to get everything approved. The Bears don't have that kind of money historically. So I there was a moment this weekend Jerry Jones canceled his interview at the NFL combine and the Cowboys have had a rough couple years. I mean they gave away a fourth round pick for Trey Lance. He couldn't beat out Cooper Rush. I mean if Kyle Shanahan can't make a quarterback accurate, he's not accurate. They gave up a fourth round pick for Jonathan Mingo, the wide receiver. Five catches for the Cowboys and again both those moves, you know, we all kind of went. Meanwhile the commanders gave up a fifth round pick for Debo Samuel. And it's really interesting as I look at Washington, not just because of the result but between Adam Peters, Cliff, Dan Quinn, that move for Debo, Jaden Daniels and I don't think like a lot of times there's recency bias. I honestly believe for the next decade Washington is going to be one of the three best NFC teams. And I think what's happening with the Cowboys now, they're becoming the old Al Davis Raiders. They feel like they are honestly they are lost at sea. I mean they are giving away draft picks now. I mean people don't understand they may re work Dax contract. It's a $90 million cap hit that is over double Josh Allen. They can rework it all they want to. What 58 I said this a year ago. I said they're going to start a decade of regression. It has happened so fast in this league. Shit goes south so fast. What did you make of the Debo only giving up a fifth round pick?
- [18:41]
NFL Analyst
Well, to Me, you just look at the free agent class and you go, well we don't want to get in any long because the whole thing was Washington has all this cap space, they need some more weapons for Jaden. And you look around, you go, well, NFL free agency is the most overrated thing because high end guys never make it. And the guys that do, you have to pay an absolute premium to get. Remember a couple years ago Christian Kirk got like four years, $90 million. He actually turned out to be okay. But you have to pay, you know, elite money for those guys. So I can get Debo on a year to year contract. I have all this space. All I have to give up is a 5th round pick. In the nil era, 5th, 6th, 7th round picks feel like diminished and watered down. I also think you get a guy who's a little motivated, people are calling him fat, you know, a little like Luca style. Adam Peters knows the guy well. Cliff Kingsbury, you know, when you think back to Arizona, they used a lot of gadget players. Rondale Moore, the Purdue guy, different type player. But guys you get behind the line of scrimmage, you know, I actually think it's a good scheme fit. He has excelled when they've had a route running wide receiver on the opposite side, Terry McLaurin, Brandon Ayuk. To me, if you get a motivated Debo, it's a no brainer. We have all this cap space. I give him 17. All I have to give up is a fifth round pick. And if you're the 49ers, you aren't going to pay him $17 million here in a couple of weeks. So it's, I think it's kind of a win win. The Niners are moving off. They don't have to eat any of the money they trade to a team where the, where the general manager was around not only drafting them, but his good and bad moments. Yeah, so knows his personality because that's another thing. I mean you've been saying it forever. Wide receivers can be a little moody. I mean, yeah, they got a little like Hollywood actor to them. They need to be. You just, you have to know their personality. It's very rare to get like a Larry Fitzgerald. Most guys are more Debo. And Adam Peters knows this player really well. And I think the Jerry Jones thing, how often in any business that if the 80 year old patriarch of the operation is around and his name's not Warren Buffett in Berkshire Hathaway, is it, is it a healthy place to be when the guy's hovering he's made an ungodly amount of money. He does not need to be there and he's extra hands on. So Jerry, you could argue Jerry's ego feels like it's only grown as they've quote unquote, struggled over the last decade relative to some of their big seasons and they've underwhelmed in the playoffs. It doesn't feel like Jerry's gone. You know what? I'm going to let Stephen and Will McKay and my coach take a bigger role. I'm just going to be more of a figurehead. He always doubles down. I'm cutting the check. My name's on that bad boy. I'm involved. I'm a football guy. And he's not wrong. I mean, he played college football. He's been around it his whole life. But unlike a lot of football guys, Jerry is addicted to business.
- [21:26]
Colin Cowherd
Yeah.
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NFL Analyst
And the business of his team is marketing and all that. And it's just. There's just a lot going on with the Cowboys and, you know, Micah Parsons. What's you talk about? Dax, cap hit. If they do give Micah a new deal and don't trade them. What's that deal? $150 million guaranteed quarterback contract.
- [21:43]
Colin Cowherd
Brutal. No, I mean, so they're in three.
- [21:45]
NFL Analyst
Guys at a combined, what, like $500 million.
- [21:48]
Colin Cowherd
Crazy. I mean, I just. You can't have three different players top of the market when only one of them, CD Lamb, is top five at his position in the NFL. It's like, I mean, it's. I had a very good year last year. Predicting very bad year. Picking individual games, very good year, you know, picking teams. I got Washington and Denver and some of the upstarts this year. I think New England is going to be a surprise playoff team. I think the jets are going to go sideways a little bit. They don't have a quarterback. I think Miami, I kind of think they've topped out a little bit. All the motion and the tricks and smoke and mirrors. I think there's limitations there. I think New England's going to be in play. And my other one is, I think Dallas is potentially a five or six win team with Brian Schottenheimer. I mean, the good news is it's a good quarterback draft to have to go out and get one. If I was Dallas this year. In fact, I think I heard Stephen Jones say this. I had another person tell me who I respect. Keep your eye on Kyle McCord out of Syracuse in the late second round. Do not be shocked if the Dallas Cowboys do go after Kyle McCord of Syracuse. Now they're, they're not late second. I think Dallas may trade down in the second round to get a mid second pick. I am hearing more and more and I went and watched him about a month ago. Kyle McCord throws a really nice ball and I thought about this. If he had stayed because Will Howard completed 61% of his throws at Kansas State. He goes to Ohio state and completes 73% of his throws. If you don't think that matters, if, if Kyle McCord stays at Ohio State with Jeremiah Smith and ibuka and the two NFL running backs and Kyle McCord, who's a much better pro prospect than Will Howard. It's not even, it's not. Will Howard is like late fifth, sixth. In fact, somebody today texts me in the NFL, he thinks after the combine he's a seventh round pick.
- [23:56]
NFL Analyst
I get a bad combine.
- [23:57]
Colin Cowherd
Oh, bad. I think, I think Kyle McCord is going to end up being as good as any quarterback in that draft. This is my hottest take is that he'll, he'll be the guy. Tell me I'm wrong.
- [24:10]
NFL Analyst
Well, I think, yeah, I watched a couple Syracuse games this season and went, this is the guy that Ryan Day, because let's face it, they blamed him for the Michigan loss.
- [24:20]
Colin Cowherd
That's right.
- [24:20]
NFL Analyst
Years ago. And he got kicked out. And so I listen, I believed him. I was like, hey, this guy, if he can't make it there, maybe they're right. And then you watch him at Syracuse, who had their best season in a while. He was spinning. He's got a big arm, tight spiral. I think him and Jackson Dart, because there are so many question marks with the top two guys. With Cam and Shador, if you're talking about two guys that you have to draft in the top, I don't know, one guy in the top five, the other guy in the top 12. You can get these two guys. Historically, McCord is not going to be a first round pick, but even Jackson Dart would also have been a second round pick. You could find the Derek Carrs, the Jimmy Garoppolo, these guys that can start for you and if you do a good job building your team, you can win with. I think the problem for the Cowboys is if you look at the Dak era, they really only had to deal with the Eagles. Right. It's kind of went back and forth over the last 10 years. Right. With Doug Peterson and then Sirianni era. Well, now it's not just the Eagles, it's Washington too. So you add another team because Washington up until last year was a joke. The Giants have been terrible for what, a decade plus. So now the Cowboys don't just have to deal with the Eagles, they have to deal with Washington. I mean that's, that's a huge problem. And even if they do draft McCord, Jackson, Dart, whoever, let's say they draft a second round pick that does nothing for them in 2025 and honestly does nothing for them the next couple years, that guy's they're kind of just hoping to get their Jordan love which is good big picture team building. But it does not help them trying to beat the Eagles or Washington in week seven. When you're three and three and your season kind of feels like it's teetering foreign.
- [25:55]
Colin Cowherd
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- [28:20]
Steph Curry
For the Greatest Shooter of All time, Steph Curry. We went live from All Star Weekend for a new podcast called Goat Greatest of Their Era and we ranked our top five shooters from the 2000s.
- [28:32]
Podcast Co-Host
Peja 5 Dirk Ford Paja is elite.
- [28:34]
Steph Curry
Okay, okay.
- [28:35]
Colin Cowherd
I'm mad him.
- [28:36]
Marcus Thompson
I left him off my list, but I still like my list.
- [28:40]
Steph Curry
You won't believe who Steph left off his list.
- [28:42]
Podcast Co-Host
That's so tough. That's why we have these conversations.
- [28:45]
Steph Curry
Yes, absolutely.
- [28:46]
Podcast Co-Host
Love it.
- [28:47]
Steph Curry
Steph talked about what separates the truly elite NBA shooters.
- [28:50]
Podcast Co-Host
When you have a scouting report and you're on the list as not just a shooter, but we have specific rules for how we guard you. There's a fear factor that's associated with anytime you're wide open, like, you might as well just count that and get back on defense.
- [29:06]
Steph Curry
Listen to Goat G O T e Greatest of Their era on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
- [29:15]
Jeremy Hobson
We live in a divided country.
- [29:17]
Colin Cowherd
I am a lifelong Republican with all.
- [29:20]
Jeremy Hobson
Kinds of different people.
- [29:21]
Marcus Thompson
You know, I'm a mother. I'm a grandmother.
- [29:24]
Jeremy Hobson
That's why we started the Middle with Jeremy Hobson. It's about bringing voices not from the extremes, but from the vast middle into the national conversation.
- [29:32]
Marcus Thompson
Anna, I'm calling from Las Vegas.
- [29:34]
Jeremy Hobson
Each week we bring together an All Star panel. Mark Cuban, so great to have you on the Middle.
- [29:39]
NFL Analyst
Thanks for having me, Jeremy.
- [29:40]
Jeremy Hobson
Neil Degrasse Tyson, welcome to the Middle.
- [29:42]
Marcus Thompson
Thanks for having me.
- [29:43]
Jeremy Hobson
And hear from ordinary Americans from all over the country on the most important issues.
- [29:48]
Marcus Thompson
Hi, my name is Venkat. I'm calling you from Atlanta, Georgia.
- [29:51]
Jeremy Hobson
And when you subscribe to the Middle, you also get an episode each week called One Thing Trump did that focuses on just one item from the avalanche of news.
- [30:00]
Marcus Thompson
We should be examining what our government spends its money on and are these jobs necessary and what are we doing here? But that doesn't seem to be what we're doing in this situation.
- [30:08]
Jeremy Hobson
Listen to the middle with Jeremy Hobson on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
- [30:21]
Marcus Thompson
All right.
- [30:21]
Colin Cowherd
He's one of my favorite guests, and it's a perfect time to get a Marcus Thompson right for the Athletic. He's the author of the book Golden KD and Dynasties. Really plugged in the warriors. Got a lot of good people covering them. I think Marcus does as good a job as anybody that covers a team in the country in any sport. And he is joining us. I mean, it's so funny because I watch a lot of warriors basketball, and in my job, I got to watch a lot of stuff, but I just got into a habit for 10 years of watching the warriors, and I made a comment. I'm like, man, when Steph is off the floor, this is pre Jimmy Butler. I'm like, this is a boring ass team. This is a bad watch. And I said I'd bring in Jimmy Butler just for energy and juice. He'll just get everybody all worked up. So were you in when you heard Jimmy was coming? Were you in the it may not work camp, it'll work kind of camp, or it'll be sensational camp? Which camp were you in?
- [31:22]
Marcus Thompson
I might be in all three, to be honest with you. I might have been in all three. You know, it was. It was difficult. I will say this up front. I didn't expect this. Yeah, I didn't expect, like. I mean, like, the one thing that's underscores for me, I love Andrew Wiggins. I think Andrew Wiggins is a really good NBA player, especially who he's become with the Warriors. He's like a testament. If you put him in the right situation. Right. He. He'll be great for you. Like, he probably shouldn't be the A1 of A franchise, right?
- [31:57]
Colin Cowherd
Yeah.
- [31:57]
Marcus Thompson
But if you put him in a good situation, he's great. Like, he's a great teammate, plays art. Colin. There's a difference between an all star and a superstar.
- [32:08]
Colin Cowherd
Yeah.
- [32:08]
Marcus Thompson
These things are categorically different. And because of all the drama that was going down in Miami and you know, even. Even how Miami was like a middling kind of team over these last couple years, I forgot that Jimmy Butler is a superstar. That. That to me is the thing. Cognitively, if you said, yeah, you put another superstar next to Steph like, that. That's what he needs. But watching him with Jimmy, it reminds you like, no, Jimmy is one of them ones. Like, he's. He's a bit of a sideshow sometimes, but, yeah, like, he's one of those guys, and it's instant. And the crazy part is he doesn't even have to play well. Yeah, he doesn't even have to play well. And you could.
- [32:51]
Colin Cowherd
He's not shooting well right now.
- [32:53]
Marcus Thompson
He's not even taking his shots. Jimmy lives mid range. He's. He's going. He's going to the elbow and rising up. He's not doing any of that. He's just on the court. And by virtue of being Jimmy Butler on the court, he will punish you if you. If you let him. And if you don't, then Steph will punish you. So, like, that's the thing. Like, the moment he got there, you could feel the vibes change just by him being there. Like, he shows up in his aloe sweatsuit at the Laker game. He. He doesn't even sit on the bench. None of the things you'd expect. This dude to come in and be like, all right, I'm part of this thing. He just came in as Jimmy, and it changed everything. And I was like, hey, yo, I've heard. I. I didn't see that. Like, I didn't see that happening in the way, like, it did.
- [33:41]
Colin Cowherd
Right. He's also. I. I've used the word. He's a very intentional player. Like, possessions matter. He doesn' Possessions. I always thought sometimes Wiggins could be a little bit of a floater. He would waste possessions. You weren't quite sure if he was on the floor. Jimmy's got more of a presence. He's more intentional. He gets to the free throw line, and I. You know, it. It also underscores something, and I've seen this with LeBron, with Luca is when you're on a treadmill to nowhere. This is a long season, and it's hard to get guys like Steph or LeBron fired up for an eight seed. Right? You give them. I said this. It's like LeBron and Steph have a new buddy in the neighborhood they want to show off to, and they're just. I mean, Steph's average, like, six more points. He's only taking one more shot.
- [34:27]
Marcus Thompson
Yeah.
- [34:28]
Colin Cowherd
So I think it. You know, in football, you got eight home games. You know, it's. It's very urgent. It's hard for these guys who are at the mountaintop to get fired up for, you know, a playing team. I feel like Steph is. This is one of these unintended benefits of making a trade with a great player. The great player drives to the arena ready to show off, ready to perform. And now the honeymoon. The new car smell may wear off, but there is something to be said about the fit. Hell, Kuminga is not playing. What? When you watch. When you watch Butler analytically, there were questions if he'd fit. Did. Do you think he's more valuable on offense or defense right now?
- [35:16]
Marcus Thompson
Right now, offense, definitely. I mean, by virtue of he's impacting one of the greatest offensive weapons in the history of sports in the way he is. Right.
- [35:27]
Colin Cowherd
Like.
- [35:27]
Marcus Thompson
Like you're. You. You can see it. Steph is a different dude. That's a monster. It's so crazy. He said it and I didn't know it till I looked it up. The day they traded him, Steph took 36 shots. And then the next day he took 32. It was the first time in his career he taken 30 shots in back to back games. He'd never done that before. All and Jimmy hadn't even played yet. Just the fact that we got Jimmy now let's turn up. So. So the fact that Jimmy has that impact on Steph, to me brings that to it. Because you're right. Like the part that. That's. That's so very viscerally clear. If they just were not good before, I mean, they weren't. They weren't. It was boring. They got guys who just don't go into the paint. Jimmy's message now is like, hey, you see what they're doing to Steph? Just go into the paint. It's wide open. As a matter of fact, I'm gonna show you. Just throw it down to me in the paint. Like, I'm not doing anything else. I'm going to the rim. And you could see them saying, hey, that's kind of working. But without that, they're just chucking threes. They aren't really very good. And it was. It was just draining life out of Steph. So to me, that. That part has been such a jolt. Like they're. They're like a top five offensive defense with Jimmy. But they were bad offensively.
- [36:51]
Colin Cowherd
Yeah.
- [36:53]
Marcus Thompson
And bad and boring. It's a bad combo. Right. You don't want to be bad and boring.
- [36:59]
Colin Cowherd
So you wrote that article on the suffering Mavs fans. Do you think when Cuban. Cuban sold the team. Mark has a pretty good sense of business timing and exit strategy?
- [37:14]
Marcus Thompson
Absolutely.
- [37:18]
Colin Cowherd
Why do you think Cuban sold. I tend to think everything marks again. Mark is very good at seeing around corners. I can disagree with him sometimes on loving NFTs and Bitcoin or politics or whatever it is, but it just feels like Cuban sold the team. And it hasn't felt the same since he sold it.
- [37:44]
Marcus Thompson
You know, the fact, like, when he sold it, I thought, is this a Vegas move? Are they. You sell it to the Vegas billionaire, the Adelson family. Right. The wife of the famous, you know, Vegas casino guy, the one who got fleeced by Mark Davis, oddly enough, for the Raiders. But I thought, is this a Vegas move? And one of the things that I've learned from Joe Lake up and the whole A's debacle, because, you know, Oakland has lost its teams, and it's all boils down to you got to be ready to spend 1.5 to $2 billion on. On a stadium.
- [38:22]
Colin Cowherd
Yep.
- [38:23]
Marcus Thompson
You just have to be able to do that. And if you're not ready to do that now, you're relying on your local municipality to come up with the money. And I'm like, I'm thinking, Cuban saw, do I want to spend a 2 billion dollar stadium or cash out and get my billions. Right. It's. It's the opposite move of what John Fisher did with the Ace. Sell the team and get billions or. No, now he's playing in like a high school stadium in Sacramento because they don't want to sell like that. That's what I thought. I don't think at any point he thought Luka was going to be traded. You know why? You know why he didn't think that? Because you don't trade Luca.
- [39:02]
Colin Cowherd
Right.
- [39:02]
Marcus Thompson
Ever. At least you don't do it at 25 years old. Right. So I wouldn't be surprised if Cuban knew that it's going to be tough to get the stadium we need. Because remember he. Remember when he bought that team and he was right, it was like, oh, they got the new fancy the lockers, and they. They treat the players top. Not like. Like you got to be top notch now. And that's $2 billion. That's $2 billion. You just got to have $2 billion. I think he saw it might be tough to get a stadium. Let me sell it. Let me. Let me take the profit instead of digging a bigger hole. And if that means the team goes to Vegas like that, it's off my hands, so to speak. That's the best I can think of. But I agree with you 1 million percent. Cuban. Cuban saw this seven steps away he was on it.
- [39:54]
Colin Cowherd
I'll throw my LeBron theory at you. LeBron has always avoided a mess. So he leaves Cleveland. He plays in the Olympics, and he's like, man, I got to play with good players. Dan Snyder can't get me. He goes to Miami for Finals. Wade and Bosh, especially. Wade is struggling to play back to backs. He bails. He's right. He goes to Cleveland, gets a title. Kyrie's like, I don't want to be here. We are maxed out. He leaves a second time. This time, everybody's good with it. He goes to the Lakers. People loved Lonzo Ball. Kyle Kuzma, he didn't. He got rid of him. Brings in. AD was great. And I believe LeBron realized, as he aged about two years ago, that he could not be on every possession, every night, the lead initiator. And Austin Reaves is more of a three or a four than a two. And so I think he was looking for Steph two years ago. Oh, of course, he made overtures and went back channels with Steph, and Steph's like, man, I'm good here. And then I think he was interested.
- [40:59]
Marcus Thompson
In Jokic, and I think it happened to be like, hey, do you want to come here instead?
- [41:03]
Colin Cowherd
That's right.
- [41:04]
Marcus Thompson
That was part of the conversation. How about, yep, LeBron, you can come here.
- [41:08]
Colin Cowherd
He knew Jokic could also make the game easier for him. Denver's not interested. And I think when Cuban sold the mavericks, I think LeBron went back channels, thought to himself, here's the moment. I'm going to make sure he knows I like him a lot. I think eventually he made it known upstairs. Guys, I'm getting older. I cannot play 40 minutes. I love AD to death, but I can't be the play initiator every damn time down the floor. I can't do it. I mean, there are times now when you watch him now. Austin Reaves hasn't played in a couple games. When Luca and Austin are there together, I mean, it's like LeBron's got a smile on his face. He just. He's floating in the wing. It's in. And by the way, he's got.
- [41:52]
Marcus Thompson
By the way, he's earned the right to be a guy.
- [41:54]
Colin Cowherd
Absolutely. But I do think. I think. And this is not a criticism, I think LeBron's the smartest player in league history, arguably in a short list. I think he's calculated. And the idea that he just woke up one day and went, well, what do you know? We got Luka, the perfect teammate, I don't buy that. I just. I mean, Marcus, I'm not a tinfoil hat guy, but LeBron is too smart. He's too much of a businessman. I think he made. He let everybody know Luka is the target. You think I'm nuts.
- [42:29]
Marcus Thompson
I don't. I just wonder how you keep that quiet. Because one thing Brian hasn't been great at is keeping all this stuff quiet. So I Occam's razor come into play. What's more likely that LeBron pulled this from behind the screen, which I'm not saying it's off the table. Or Nico Harrison was like, I got the move that's going to make me a legend. I don't know. Yeah, they're both kind of wild. We. Did he really just do this, though? Did Nico just decide, you know what? I'm gonna call Rob Palinka. We're gonna make this happen. That's almost as crazy.
- [43:09]
American Express Representative
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- [43:40]
T-Mobile Representative
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- [44:15]
Steph Curry
Make some noise for the greatest shooter of all time, Steph Curry. We went live from all Star weekend for a new podcast called Goat Greatest of their era. And we ranked our top five shooters from the 2000s.
- [44:29]
Podcast Co-Host
Peja 5 Dirk Ford.
- [44:30]
Marcus Thompson
Paja is elite.
- [44:31]
Steph Curry
Okay, okay.
- [44:32]
Colin Cowherd
I'm mad him.
- [44:32]
Marcus Thompson
I left him off my list, but I still like my list.
- [44:36]
Steph Curry
You won't believe who Steph left off his list.
- [44:39]
Podcast Co-Host
That's so tough. That's why we have these conversations.
- [44:42]
Steph Curry
Yes, absolutely.
- [44:43]
Podcast Co-Host
Love it.
- [44:43]
Steph Curry
Steph talked about what separates the truly.
- [44:45]
Podcast Co-Host
Elite NBA shooters when you Have a scouting report and you're on the list as not just a shooter, but we have specific rules for how we guard you. There's a fear factor that's associated with anytime you're wide open. Like, you might as well just count that and get back on defense.
- [45:03]
Steph Curry
Listen to Goat G O T E greatest of their era on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
- [45:12]
Jeremy Hobson
We live in a divided country.
- [45:14]
Colin Cowherd
I am a lifelong Republican with all.
- [45:16]
Jeremy Hobson
Kinds of different people.
- [45:18]
Marcus Thompson
You know, I'm a mother, I'm a grandmother.
- [45:20]
Jeremy Hobson
That's why we started the Middle with Jeremy Hobson. It's about bringing voices not from the extremes, but from the vast middle into the national conversation.
- [45:28]
Marcus Thompson
Anna, I'm calling from Las Vegas.
- [45:31]
Jeremy Hobson
Each week we bring together an all star panel. Mark Cuban, so great to have you on the Middle.
- [45:36]
NFL Analyst
Thanks for having me, Jeremy.
- [45:37]
Jeremy Hobson
Neil Degrasse Tyson, welcome to the Middle.
- [45:38]
Marcus Thompson
Thanks for having me.
- [45:39]
Jeremy Hobson
And hear from ordinary Americans from all over the country on the most important issues.
- [45:44]
Marcus Thompson
Hi, my name is Venkat. I'm calling you from Atlanta, Georgia.
- [45:48]
Jeremy Hobson
And when you subscribe to the Middle, you also get an episode each week called One Thing Trump did that focuses on just one item from the avalanche of news.
- [45:56]
Marcus Thompson
We should be examining what our government spends its money on and are these jobs necessary and what are we doing here? But that doesn't seem to be what we're doing in this situation.
- [46:04]
Jeremy Hobson
Listen to the Middle with Jeremy Hobson on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
- [46:15]
Colin Cowherd
What did you make in New York watching them? What do you make of the Knicks?
- [46:19]
Marcus Thompson
Knicks, Knicks are just disappointing. I'm gonna give a pass because Towns was not there. But for a team that can't shoot threes, they sure jack a lot. But I don't like their will at the end. And I, I wonder if Thibodeau has worn them down. They, they, they. Their will on the defensive end has this limit. It has its limit.
- [46:38]
Colin Cowherd
It can't just be Hartenstein. They're just not as good.
- [46:41]
Marcus Thompson
Yeah, you can, you can break them defensively and that's, that's going to be troubling. Now, again, playoff basketball is different. It's half court to half court. It's matchup based. But I'm wondering, what are their legs like? Like what, what is, what is their psyche like after. What is this year, three year, four of TIBs, and I don't know, it was like, it's GI Santos. It was, gee, Santos cooking like, we're not talking about like Steph was cool, like Jimmy Butler was okay, but they're getting out worked by guys who should be in the G League. Their will just break sometimes. Like if you watch the dicks, they just, they just decide to give up. And then it's like Brunson, go save us. So I don't, I mean, obviously Boston and Cleveland are at the top. But I'll tell you this, if I'm New York, I don't want them Pistons in the first round. I'll tell you that much. You know, you don't want to see the Pistons in the first round. That y. That young, hungry team full of athletes who. Willing to fight. Yeah. Nah, I don't know if they have the will. So again, they didn't have Town, so that's something. But I'm, I'm, I'm. I'm worried about the Knicks team. I'm not quite Stephen A. Smith level worried, but I'm worried about the next team.
- [47:55]
Colin Cowherd
Well, I've watched them play Boston twice and I've watched one of the Cleveland games and they attacked Carl Anthony Towns in the pick and roll. I mean, they just attack them.
- [48:04]
Marcus Thompson
I don't know. Towns is not going to solve this problem in the playoffs. No, he might, they might be able to score more, which will help you against some teams. But if it's like, talented.
- [48:15]
Colin Cowherd
Yeah, no, he's talented.
- [48:16]
Marcus Thompson
Yeah. No question. He'll, he'll. He'll go out and get you some buckets in the playoffs and he'll, he'll create some moments. But like this team, you know, if they get either Boston or Cleveland in the second round, I just don't know. And they have to get one of them. They have to get one of them. Right?
- [48:32]
Colin Cowherd
They're gonna. Yeah, they just don't match. I. Cleveland is so effect. Cleveland and Boston are the two best teams in the league. They can defend the rim, they can defend the perimeter. They've got scoring guards, they've got scoring wings. They're both efficient. If Derek White is at some nights the fifth best player on your team, that is a. That. It's almost like they, you know, with the new taxes and the new ceilings and the, the way it works and junk.
- [49:02]
Marcus Thompson
Yeah.
- [49:02]
Colin Cowherd
All the second apron shit, it's like Boston for about two years, beat it. They've got a roster that you couldn't build right now, but they, they kind of grandfathered it in and they just got too many good players.
- [49:13]
Marcus Thompson
Yeah. And Cleveland, man, that DeAndre Hunter trade was like unfair. They Were already really good. They just got another. And that's the thing about all these guys. Like, they. You got to be able to guard wings. And you look like you just listed like four people on Boston who could guard wings. Cleveland just added another guy. They've got guys who can guard wings. That to me, is going to be like, I'm not putting Oklahoma City in there yet because I want to see them in the playoffs. Guard wings or guard the explosive point guard. Like, they've got the bodies. They got the.
- [49:46]
Colin Cowherd
The.
- [49:47]
Marcus Thompson
The. The stats right. They rank pretty well defensively. Playoffs are different. Monster. It's just different. It's just different.
- [49:54]
Colin Cowherd
And this Cleveland team you've had, Donovan Mitchell and Evan Mobley, you know, last year, they kind of disappointed us. Oklahoma City feels like Cleveland last year.
- [50:04]
Marcus Thompson
Yeah.
- [50:04]
Colin Cowherd
Really impressive, but not quite ready to go on the road and give you a plus plus stuff from. From role players on the road. I think Cleveland's ready to do that now. Mobley just. Mobley's better every year.
- [50:15]
Marcus Thompson
Yeah. And. And again, they've added the upgrade pieces, too. Like, they didn't just run it back with the same team. And that's. That's what we're going to see about okc. Maybe Shay is just that good where he figured it out. Like, he felt it. They lost to Dallas. He went to work and got better. Maybe he's enough and Jalen Williams is enough next to him. I just want to see it first because it. Experience matters a lot, man. It just. The playoffs are a different monster. Like, if they get Jokic, I love Chet Holgren. What is he doing with Nicola Jokic? Like, that's. That's just gonna be a tough. Like, you have to fight. You got to fight out of that series. You know, Jamal Murray shows up, it's over. You know, always show up. But when he does, it's pretty good, right? So, Yep, that and Russ, you, like, you. You have to fight to get out the West. So I'm curious about how the kind of fight Oklahoma City have. If they got it, they should. They should be in the finals. If not, it's gonna be a long off season for Sam Presti because he's got like, a bounty of stuff that. It's like, hey, at some point, you probably need to cash in all these assets you're so famous for and get something right? Go. Go get Giannis. Then if. If he can't win, like, go do something with all that. That's who. That's where Lucas should be. I'm like, hey, Give me all that stuff for Luca.
- [51:37]
NFL Analyst
That's right.
- [51:38]
Marcus Thompson
He should be in Oklahoma City with my seven picks, three young players and defensive stoppers and all that, that like that if, if they got a win. Otherwise Sam Preston needs to go ahead and cash in that winning ticket he's got or the winning tickets.
- [51:52]
Colin Cowherd
Well, I mean every other NBA draft is, you know, fairly talentless. This past draft, it just, there's not a lot there. So like you can have all these draft picks, but what you have to do is when you get that every third draft, when it's really deep, when it' got to go all in and then, then I mean, I couldn't tell you the last time we had great back to back drafts. That's just not the way it works anymore. You get like a good one, a bad one, a moderate one, a good one. So I think, okay, I think Presti's sharp. You know, it's. I worry about homegrown long term as body, but they, they, they got waves of players.
- [52:25]
Marcus Thompson
You want to see KD back there?
- [52:28]
Colin Cowherd
It's interesting. J. Mac, on my show today, I, I don't know if it's a very attractive place for kd, but I will say this. I don't know his relationship with Presti. If you're asking me if there's a dude that works, it's Oklahoma City and kd, because he, he doesn't need the ball. You can, he is catch and shoot and SGA needs the ball. So yeah, I mean I'd cash in a lot of chips. That's, that'd be a two year experiment, but. Jesus. Him, Holmgren, SGA Williams. Jesus. That, that is a lot of buckets.
- [53:00]
Marcus Thompson
That's a lot of buckets. A lot of thin buckets too.
- [53:06]
Colin Cowherd
Marcus Thompson, great seeing you, man. Love seeing you.
- [53:09]
Marcus Thompson
Likewise. Likewise. This is hard out here in these streets. I got my new assignment. I'm covering figure skating world championships for the Athletic. I am an accomplished Olympic writer Now, Colin. I was in Paris covering track and fields and now I'm going figure skating. Can you imagine me at the figure skating? I'm in this thing. I'm out here. College.
- [53:36]
Colin Cowherd
Wow. Good for you. Well, you're a great writer, so you got the ability to do different, different things.
- [53:41]
Marcus Thompson
I'm taking advantage of it now. I'm looking forward to this. So. Yeah, yeah, let's go. Next time we're going to talk about the quad. God, in advance of the winter.
- [53:51]
Colin Cowherd
I can't promise you that. For the Athletic, the very talented Marcus Thompson. Thanks, buddy.
- [54:01]
Marcus Thompson
Thanks for having me. My guy.
- [54:06]
Colin Cowherd
The Volume. This is Nikki Glaser from the Nikki Glaser Podcast. On a more serious note, I'm still thinking about that commercial with Tom Brady and Snoop Dogg hating on each other. Because when you listen to the reasons for hating someone or something, you realize just how stupid they really are. There is too much hate in this country and it's gotta stop. So join us at iHeart in standing up to it. If you see hate, speak up, call it out, and you can learn more by following.
- [54:35]
Steph Curry
Ot'supwithhate make some noise for the greatest shooter of all time, Steph Curry. We went live from All Star Weekend for a new podcast called Goat Greatest of Their Era, and we ranked our top five shooters from the 2000s major.
- [54:49]
Podcast Co-Host
Five dirt ford asia is a lie.
- [54:51]
Steph Curry
You won't believe who Steph left off his list.
- [54:54]
Podcast Co-Host
That's so tough. That's why we have these conversations.
- [54:56]
Steph Curry
Yes, absolutely.
- [54:57]
Podcast Co-Host
Love it.
- [54:58]
Steph Curry
Listen to Go G O T E Greatest of Their era on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
- [55:06]
Greg Rosenthal
What's up everyone? It's Greg Rosenthal, and I'm teaming up with the King of Spring, Daniel Jeremiah. He requires me to say that we're going to be bringing you 40s and free agents, the only podcast you'll need this NFL Draft season. From DJs, mock drafts to my top 101, free agents will have it covered for you with all new episodes every Thursday keeping you up to date as we head to the NFL Draft. Listen to 40s and free agents starting on March 6th on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast.
- [55:36]
Jeremy Hobson
We live in a divided country, and our media couldn't be more polarizing. That's why we started the Middle with Jeremy Hobson. It's about bringing voices not from the extremes, but from the vast middle into the national conversation. Each week we hear from ordinary Americans from all over the country. And when you subscribe to the Middle, you also get an episode each week called One Thing Trump did that focuses on just one item from the avalanche of news. Listen to the Middle with Jeremy Hobson on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast.