← The Herd with Colin Cowherd
The Herd with Colin Cowherd
Colin Cowherd Podcast - The NBA’s “Pete Rose” Gambling Scandal, Eliminate Two-Way Player Props? Wemby Is UNGUARDABLE
01:08:47
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- [00:00]
Chris Mannix
This is an iHeart podcast.
- [00:04]
Colin Cowherd
This podcast is sponsored by PayPal. Okay, let's talk holiday shopping. When you want to make the most of your Money, head to PayPal's app before you check out. They give you the flexibility to pay in four no fees, no interest. And this is big. Bigger than the 12 foot snowman on your lawn right now. You can get 5% cash back when you pay later with PayPal. So whether it's the must have merch or for that signed jersey you've been eyeing, PayPal helps you make the most of your money this holiday. Save this offer in the PayPal app.
- [00:37]
Chris Mannix
Expires 1231 see paypal.com promoterms subject to approval. Learn more at paypal.com payin4paypal inc.nmls910457 look, if you smoke or dip, I'm going to give you a few good reasons.
- [00:53]
Colin Cowherd
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Chris Mannix
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Chris Mannix
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- [01:21]
Colin Cowherd
Nicotine is an addictive chemical the Toyota Certified Used Vehicle Sales Event is here. It is packed with great surprises. Choose from a wide selection of low mileage vehicles all backed by Toyota, with warranties that begin on the date of purchase. Because when it comes to quality, the best new cars make the best used cars. So don't miss your chance. Find your certified Toyota today. But hurry. These Great offers end November 3rd Toyota certified used Vehicle Sales Event where every surprise is a great one. Inventory may vary by dealer, participating dealers only. Comprehensive and powertrain are limited. Warranties. See TCUV Warranty Supplement Toyota Certified or your Toyota dealer for details. Today's episode brought to you by a scent that's made a legendary comeback degree Original Cool Rush the OG is back and better than ever. Cool Rush isn't just a scent, it's a movement kind of fragrance guys remember, ask for by name and rave about online. It's bold. It's fresh all day. Sweat protection, cool crisp vibe that made it legendary. So whether you're heading to the gym, the office, or just trying to stay fresh all day long, Cool Rush has your back. So if you haven't tried it yet, head to your local Walmart. Grab degree Cool Rush, the fan favorite scent from the world's number one Antiperspirant brand the volume. Now it's time for this week's redeem team member brought to you by Hulu's Chad Powers. This week it's Devonte Adams. Three touchdowns in London Rams crush the Jacksonville Jaguars. Adams became the second player to have three touchdowns in an international game. He and Stafford were dialed in. Chad Powers is now streaming new episodes Tuesday on Hulu and Hulu on Disney plus for bundle subscribers. Terms apply. Danny Parkins is the perfect guest today for the show. Not just because he enjoys a little parlay from time to time, but his. Yeah, like tonight but so, but it is a, it is something I think both of us feel strongly about is I, I always push back. I think the media, the mainstream media sometimes can be really outdated and precious when it comes to gambling. Europe's far ahead of us, has been for years. And the truth is, and this is another criticism I have of the media, they tend to pander. And so I don't think because there's more gambling opportunities it's an invitation to be an addict. I don't think more bars are going to induce you into being alcoholic. I think there are rules, there's laws, these are personal choices people make. But I do think addiction is a sad tale because many addicts are poor with no way out where Chauncey Billups to me, Danny, the part of this that's just mind boggling, forget the fact that Chauncey Billups made over 100 million. He was always thought as a very kind of smart, I would say almost a coach while he was playing, he was an adult in the room that he played rigged poker games knowing they were rigged. I'm, I don't even, I mean if you'd have told me, if you'd have given me 20 names of people and he was on it, I'd say well it's not Chauncey that I know for sure of all the stuff on Rozier and Chauncey Billups and Damon Jones and the La Cosa Nostra and the poker. Chauncey played rigged poker games and knew it to me is the what, what does that land similarly to you?
- [05:20]
Chris Mannix
Yeah, of course. And I mean obviously we have to say all of these things are like alleged at this point. But they've got some pretty damning specifics here. Right. So you know, let's just have the blanket their allegations thing out of the way. And yes, Chauncey Billups reputation was sparkling and you know, it appears that he also is involved in the sports gambling one. It went as that unidentified person who played from this time to this time and then was a coach from this time to this time and it was an Oregon resident like that. We're going to talk about a lot of this, but like, if that is true, like, let's just assume that the unnamed person in the sports gambling one who fits the exact description of Chauncey Billups is Chauncey Billups. I mean that is the NBA's version of Pete Rose.
- [06:11]
Colin Cowherd
Yeah.
- [06:12]
Chris Mannix
You have an, you have an NBA head coach tipping off a gambler that they're gonna. That he's gonna sit players. So they should start. Yeah, they should bet the under like that. I mean, he's in the hall of Fame, Colin. Like, can he get thrown out of.
- [06:28]
Colin Cowherd
The hall of Fame? Yeah. Yes.
- [06:31]
Chris Mannix
Right. Like, but I like that is on the table for his basketball reputation if that is true. Because I would imagine he would not get thrown out of the hall of Fame for just the poker side of it. But if he was. If it's proven that Chauncey Billups as an NBA head coach was proven to letting gamblers know what he was going to do with his players for the purposes of betting unders on props, he'll never be allowed around basketball ever again. And it's. It would be a startling fall from grace for one of the guys with like a truly immaculate reputation within the game.
- [07:07]
Colin Cowherd
Yeah, like there are, you know, I can think multiple things at the same time. If he was a. You know, I like when people have problems with addiction and I don't know if this is addiction, but when people have problems with addiction, there's varying levels of it. I mean, I, I had somebody close to me that drank for 50 years and stone cold stop at 64 and has never touched it. And it's like. And I've heard multiple stories of that. My dad didn't have that ability, so some of it's genetic. Some people are wired to be able to stop stuff. I don't have an obsessive compulsive personality, so I don't have that. I worked once in the Pacific Northwest with somebody who had moderation issues with food and gambling and behavior. And it was scary. The person could not control everything from food intake to temper to gambling. So I don't know if that's the issue. But Chauncey certainly could seek help and could afford help. What really bothers me with Chauncey, though is the rigged poker games, because that's more sinister to me. It's.
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Chris Mannix
It's one thing, it's stealing it's just.
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Colin Cowherd
It's.
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Chris Mannix
It's.
- [08:22]
Colin Cowherd
It's just. It's.
- [08:23]
Chris Mannix
It's. It is. It is stealing. I mean, listen, so I've played in, like, I. I play cards. Nick and I have played cards together forever. Nick, at this point, is a much more accomplished poker player than I ever was. But I have. So I've lived in Chicago, Syracuse, Kansas City, and now New York. I have played in what are technically illegal poker games every place I've ever lived. Because what makes a poker game illegal is if a place takes a rake. If they take. If they take a vic, right? Like, you go to a casino and you play poker, maybe they'll cap it at 20 bucks a hand. It's a percentage of the pot up to a certain amount, and then it's capped. And that's how, like, the house makes their money. And so, like, if you go to a guy's house and he's got a table running and he's got a dealer, and, you know, you drink for free and they be. Maybe order pizzas for the room or whatever the case may be, like, how do they pay for that? How does the guy make his money? They take a rig, they take a vig out of the game. Right? A rake is what it's called in poker, and that's like, technically illegal, but it's not a big deal. Like, it's not. It's just everybody does it for forever. But if and when you go to any game that isn't in a casino, you, of course, have like a. You are. Some fear of, like, is the game on the up and up? Do the players know each other? Is the dealer in on it? Like, that is like a thing that you take on some level of risk, which is why it's like, quote unquote, safer to go play in Vegas, to go play in Atlantic City, to go play in, you know, the casinos in Chicago or wherever. So that's where I would normally play. But I've found myself in these games before. And you. It's in the back of your mind, but it is what it is. But if. Well, the allegations about Chauncey Billups, that the dealer was in on it. Yeah, the other players were in on it. And he was. As the. The letter of the law. What they're. What the FBI guy was alleging is that he was what they called the face card play in a game with Chauncey Billups, which is what would get big fish with money. Oh, my God, I've got money. I can play $10,000. Buy in poker games with an NBA, with a Hall of Famer, and I get to meet him and take pictures or whatever. And then if Chauncey Billups also knew, which is what they're alleging.
- [10:47]
Colin Cowherd
Yeah.
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Chris Mannix
I mean, he's. He's a common criminal. Like, it's. It's. It's just. It is. It is. It is the. It is the same thing of going into someone's house and robbing them of their jewelry. You know what I mean? It is. It is theft. There's no other way to describe it.
- [11:02]
Colin Cowherd
Yeah, it was. You know, I. I'm much older than you, and my first job was in Las Vegas, and I came in there pretty naively to Las Vegas, and I covered Jerry Tarkanian. And Tark was always fully aware of the casinos. There were some. I could name a couple of guys that were around the program. One of the things Tark had, like. I remember this, like, 40 free tickets. That's unbelievable. Like, Jim Herrick at UCLA had, like, four. You know, Tark had, like, 40. And by the way, he would give them to a guy I know. We used to call him Tracksuit Tony. He would give him 35 of the tickets, 36 of the tickets, and Mike would sell those tickets and bring back, you know.
- [11:51]
Chris Mannix
Yeah.
- [11:52]
Colin Cowherd
You know, and then there was another guy named Larry. I'm not going to say his last name. He had a big business on the side. And, you know, there was always these feelings of these guys aren't. You know, I don't know about these guys, but I knew the guys. They were fine. They were just like, guys around Tark. But there was always reputations. You know, Tark hangs around the. And my take was guys. They're not Mafia members. Like, they're. They own businesses. They're just kind of. They want to be. You know, Tark was the biggest celebrity not named Steve Wynn or Mike Tyson in town, but. And I. There was a lot of talk through the years, and I just didn't buy into it, because the only time I've seen Tark turn gray is when I brought up gambling. And he's like. It terrifies me. He just, like, changed personality. He goes. It terrifies me. And it was Tim Gurgarich and those guys and Lois Tarkanian, and they really educated the players. And then one day, the administration was trying to get Tark out, including the athletic director at the time. And a picture, a Sunday morning Las Vegas Review Journal of Moses Scurry, Anderson Hunt and David Butler in a hot tub with Richie the Fixer Perry and so I was like, oh, program over. So that obviously the ad found the picture, they got it to the newspaper. So I was right. Suddenly I was a crime reporter and it just no fun, you know, I'm like 29 years old. I want to talk Mike Tyson. I'm talking about Richie the Fixer Perry. And nothing was ever really proven. And I still to this day would defend that program to the ends of the earth on any of the gambling stuff. Tark constantly pled with his players to stay out of these casinos. But I think one of the things I said today is since the chariots in Rome Mafia gambling, sports, you just have to understand it's not because it's now legalized. It happened to Henry hill in the 70s at Boston College. Too many people are jumping to see this is the problem with FanDuel. My take is, guys, my take is you're really naive. In fact, I'd say it's more regulated now and it's arguable. It's more monitored now. My take is these stories are good actually because it fishes out the bad actors.
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Chris Mannix
Okay. There's a level of nuance to this as I see is objectively true that the way that these players got caught. Johntay Porter Rosier like for tanking their unders is because it was legal. Like it's. The regulation is what allowed it to be caught on day one if, if Terry Rozier's player prop of nine and a half points is posted and normally that gets two thousand dollars worth of action across a bunch of ten fifty hundred dollars bets. And then one day there's mid five figures of action that gets flagged.
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Colin Cowherd
Yeah.
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Chris Mannix
And it gets notified. And the site fanduel draftkings, Hard Rock whomever and the league their interests on that are aligned.
- [15:15]
Colin Cowherd
Yes.
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Chris Mannix
Because the NBA wants the integrity of the game and the gambling company doesn't want to lose money.
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Colin Cowherd
Well, in Vegas, the margins for sports betting in Vegas in 2025 are thin.
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Chris Mannix
Right, Exactly. So like they're. They are catching that quicker and more accurately literally the day it happens in all of these cases that have come up because of the regulation. So like the idea that it is like happening more because of it, they're going to also catch it. I will say though that like it is easier to gamble.
- [15:59]
Colin Cowherd
Yes.
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Chris Mannix
Because it is legal. It is easier to have a phone, have access to a debit card. Like when I started online gambling when I was 15, 16 years old, it was like offshore and you had to. It wasn't that high of a barrier of Entry. But it was like, are you going to get paid? Do you have to buy a phone, like an international calling card to deposit? Did you have to wire money? Would your bank accept the check? It was a whole big runaround. Now it is just, like, much easier. And there have been studies done on Twitter, Instagram, all these apps on our phone. They are programmed like slot machines to get you to keep checking the pings and the notifications and the lights to get you to keep logging back on.
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Colin Cowherd
It's just like Silicon Valley's algorithms. They want you on the phone.
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Chris Mannix
Well, so that's what I'm saying. So I do think that it would also equally be naive to dismiss the barrier of entry to gambling being easier than ever before. Pretending like that does not have a causal link to an increased amount of problematic gambling behavior, primarily in young men. Right. Like, I do think that those numbers are going up and will stay up, but it ain't going away. Yeah, right. Like prohibition doesn't work to your point. It doesn't work with alcohol. It doesn't work with weed. It doesn't work with gambling. It doesn't. It doesn't work. It doesn't work with sex. It doesn't. It doesn't work with anything.
- [17:39]
Colin Cowherd
Never has.
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Chris Mannix
So. And never has so. You know, I've, I've read really smart columnists on this story, and, you know, a lot of the conclusions are similar. And it is, you know, like the leagues got embedded, the gambling companies. That comes with a cost. Was it worth it? And those. The leagues are all universally going to say, yes, yes, you know, and, like, they're, they're. So. These stories are going to happen and.
- [18:09]
Colin Cowherd
It'S, it sucks, Danny.
- [18:12]
Chris Mannix
But I do, I do think it is an unavoidable cost of the legalization of sports gambling. But there's no putting the genie back in the bottle.
- [18:20]
Colin Cowherd
Listen, Hollywood called Saudi Arabia money, blood money. It's a complicated world. Now Hollywood's taking Saudi money, right? So when I hear people say, well, live. Oh, stop. There's a real truth out here. The Puritans are always people that don't get offered things. Chris Rock, you're as, you know, you're as loyal as your options. The Internet trolls, the anonymous people. They're always the most unified in their pristine views of the world. And the truth is, if you're offered stuff, people eventually take it. They justify it. Saudi money was viewed one way, and then now it's not. And the reality is everybody, networks, Hollywood leagues, everybody accepts it. And I look at sports gambling Again there's a little bit of a link with alcohol where I think, listen, I leagues, for instance, stadiums cut off alcohol sales in like the seventh inning. Like we're serving it but we're stopping at the seventh. You know, bars, you know, tell people enough. My concern is I think the prop bets, prop bets on your phone are dangerous but if you ban that, well then it goes to the unregulated market and that's worse.
- [19:47]
Chris Mannix
Correct.
- [19:47]
Colin Cowherd
So to me I would just rather have all this crap monitored. I want all gambling monitored closely. And then I mean like one of the problems.
- [19:56]
Chris Mannix
I think, I think there's a. Yeah, yeah, sorry. So sorry. I, I think, I think the prop bet thing is an interesting, like I do think I, I wonder if it is, if there's an interesting thought though to like if you're, if it's a, like what the level of player is that should have a two way prop market offered. Like should I be able to bet the under on the eighth guy on the NBA team and his Prop is like 6 and a half points. Like I don't, I don't know. Like maybe they shouldn't be two way markets.
- [20:31]
Colin Cowherd
That's interesting.
- [20:32]
Chris Mannix
And that's bad. That's me, that's bad for me as the gambler.
- [20:35]
Colin Cowherd
Yeah.
- [20:35]
Chris Mannix
Because like normally you get way worse odds if they are just one way market because people like playing overs. So those things get like inflated. Like the sharp money is often to bet unders because people like betting overs. Right. But I do wonder if a potential solve for this is you can bet Terry Roziers over and that's you cannot bet, but you cannot bet is on.
- [20:59]
Colin Cowherd
That's right. That's right.
- [21:00]
Chris Mannix
I think that there's that, that might be a way to help in the prop market a little bit because it, that is a legitimate problem. Like that is a legitimate integrity of the game issue. And again I feel like the leagues and the gambling companies, like the gambling company might scoff a little bit. That's going to cost us some money and the league's going to say deal with it. Like you want to be partners with the NBA, the NFL, Major League Baseball, be our official gambling partner. Like you've got to take that 1%. Like people aren't going to just, they're not going to stop gambling. They're just going to gamble on something different, you know. So I, that I've been thinking about it a lot. I feel like maybe that's a potential solve.
- [21:43]
Colin Cowherd
Listen, our is just no more two.
- [21:45]
Chris Mannix
Way markets on player props.
- [21:47]
Colin Cowherd
Our Brains work. Similarly, because I thought about this interview I was doing with you tonight, and I was thinking about prop bets, and I'm like, well, I don't want it to go to the unregulated market. That's nonsense. I mean, you just don't have the same radar. But I do. My mind went to the same thing is just no under bets because then it can be manipulated by the whole thing. Like Tim Donaghy always said, I wasn't trying to change outcomes. I just called more fouls to get the over. And I've always been more concerned with officials. In fact, Danny, through the years, I, you know, I got into this discussion today with a guy at the gym who was a huge fan of yours, by the way, and thanked me for hiring you. And I said, well, he's talented. Don't give me too much credit for that.
- [22:27]
Chris Mannix
But smart guy.
- [22:29]
Colin Cowherd
Yeah, the guy at the gym. Guy at the gym, right. All right. Today's show is brought to you by our new presenting sponsor, Hard Rock Bet. They're a great partner on Hard Rock Bet. You don't have to wait for week eight to kick off to get in on the action. There's always something to bet on. If you haven't tried your first bet on Hard Rock Bet yet, there's still time for you to get 150 bucks in bonus bets. If you win, just place a $5 bet. That's it. Five bucks. If it hits you, not only get your winnings, but you get $150 in extra bonus bets. The NBA is back, which means it's time to shoot your shot on Hard Rock Bet. You're home for all the hoops action all season long. If you need a little help with your first bet, check out the streaks heating up inside the Hard Rock Bet stats hub. You can find live odds to bet on all of these streaks right in the Hard Rock Bet app. Download the Hard Rock Bet app today and make your first deposit payable in bonus bets. Not a cash offer. Offered by the Seminole Tribe of Florida in Florida. Offered by Seminole Hard Rock Digital LLC in Alder States. Must be 21 plus and physically present in Arizona, Colorado, Florida, Illinois, Indiana, New Jersey, Ohio, Tennessee or Virginia. To play. Terms and conditions apply. Concerned about gambling in Florida, call 1-888- admit it in Indiana. If you or somebody you know has a problem wants help, call 1-800-9 with it. Gambling problem, call 1-800- GAMBLER Arizona, Colorado, Illinois, New Jersey, Ohio, Tennessee, Virginia. This podcast is sponsored by PayPal. Okay, let's talk holiday shopping. When you want to make the most of your Money, head to PayPal's app before you check out. They give you the flexibility to pay in four no fees, no interest. And this is big. Bigger than the 12 foot snowman on your lawn right now. You can get 5% cash back when you pay later with PayPal. So whether it's the must have merch or for that signed jersey you've been eyeing, PayPal helps you make the most of your money this holiday. Save this offer in the PayPal app.
- [24:26]
Chris Mannix
Expires 1231 see paypal.com promoterms subject to approval. Learn more at paypal.com payinfor paypal inc.nmls910457.
- [24:37]
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- [25:38]
Katie Couric
On the latest episode of Next Question with me, Katie Couric. I sat down with Bernie Sanders, who is 84 years old, has spent 34 years in Congress and he can still pack a rally with people a quarter of his age.
- [25:52]
Colin Cowherd
Denver 34,000 people come out. Salt Lake City, 20,000 people.
- [25:56]
Chris Mannix
You know, huge turnouts.
- [25:58]
Colin Cowherd
People are really dissatisfied about the status quo.
- [26:02]
Katie Couric
His Fighting Oligarchy tour with AOC and other young progressives has become a movement. But is his message too far to the left? Well, he certainly doesn't think so.
- [26:13]
Colin Cowherd
Does that sound like a radical idea? Is that too far left for you?
- [26:16]
Katie Couric
Okay, okay, wait, wait. I get your point, Bernie. We talk about the billionaire class, the cost of living and of course the government shutdown, not to mention the current state of the Democratic Party.
- [26:30]
Colin Cowherd
To me, the failure of the Democratic Party has been an unwillingness to recognize.
- [26:35]
Katie Couric
The real issues, open your free iHeartRadio app. Search Next question with Katie Couric and listen now.
- [26:44]
Announcer (Hell in Heaven Podcast)
In the new podcast Hell in Heaven. Two young Americans moved to the Costa Rican jungle to start, start over. But one will end up dead, the other tried for murder. Not once people went wild, not twice, stunned, but three times. John and Anne Bender are rich and attractive and they're devoted to each other. They create a nature reserve and build a spectacular circular home high on the top of a head hill. But little by little, their dream starts to crumble and our couple retreat from reality.
- [27:24]
Colin Cowherd
They lose it.
- [27:25]
Chris Mannix
They actually lose it.
- [27:26]
Announcer (Hell in Heaven Podcast)
They sort of went nuts until one night, everything spins out of control. Listen to Hell in Heaven on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
- [27:42]
Katie Couric
Foreign.
- [27:48]
Colin Cowherd
I've always thought the easiest thing to change an outcome is basketball, especially college basketball, where there's 350 Division 1 programs. Many of the games aren't on TV. It's very easy. I mean, I could go when I was playing basketball every day, high school, college, if you told me, miss the free throw long, and I certainly wasn't a great player, I could absolutely do it. I mean, there's just, it's just not. They went back and looked at the 1970s Boston College videotapes. They went back, the FBI went and looked, Danny. They couldn't find, they could not find a moment. And they looked. They said, we're not really sure where it happened. And they, and you know, Henry Hill, you know, there was prison time beyond indictment, there was time served. They couldn't find the actual plays. So I think basketball is uniquely placed in a spot where, first of all, there's a brotherhood in football, there's a physicality to it. I mean, if you, if you get called out on Monday's meeting for missing a block, I mean, players fear that. That is, that is the situation. In baseball, I guess you probably could swing at a bad pitch boy. In basketball, Danny missing an 18 footer, these guys are so good. I think it's a, I think it's probably happened more than we think. Good God. Go back to the Jordan finals. There was a gambling stigma. There's Donaghy, there's this. I think basketball is uniquely vulnerable to this.
- [29:36]
Chris Mannix
I think for team sports, I agree with you. What about if you're a great tennis player or you're even just like, I'm better than my opponent and I'm supposed to beat him in straight sets. So the over, under for sets is three and A half. But you're like, I'm going to hit a few into the net and I'll just beat him in four. And I'll bet the over on sets in this next.
- [30:06]
Colin Cowherd
There's been stories that tennis has been the most rigged sport of all the sports.
- [30:11]
Chris Mannix
Well, right, that's what I'm saying. Like, I think, like what you're saying about team sports. Basketball is probably the easiest to disguise. I agree with you. But the easiest ones are the individual sports because no one else you are. You don't even have the guilt of letting someone else down. You just have to live with yourself. Like tennis, golf, obviously boxing, you know what I mean? Like, the individual sports are the ones that it's probably the easiest to manipulate outcomes even if you don't change the outcome of who wins or loses. But just like I said, over unders props, this match I'm going to. I'm a golfer, I've made the cut because I shot a 66 on Thursday. But I don't. I'm not going to win the tournament because it's going to finish it, you know, 25, 2500, I'll shoot, I'll shoot a 71 on Friday. No big deal.
- [30:59]
Colin Cowherd
Think about baseball. It's so damn hard to hit a ball to begin with. It's hard to rig a sport. Hey, listen, I'm only going to get a hit tonight. Shit. You may go, oh, for the series.
- [31:10]
Chris Mannix
Yeah, right, absolutely. But the thought though was that now in pro sports there's so much damn money that how could it really be worth it? And Porter, John Tay Porter and his brother Michael Porter, they gotta stop talking because, like, one of them's like, you could have a bad game, but, like, you could tell your boys you're gonna have a bad game and you could hook it up and Everybody can make 10 grand. It's like, shut up. Like, like, what are you doing? Like. But that's. I think that's part of it too, is that some of these guys are like, literally trying to like, put their friends on and like, yeah, go make ten grand. I'll have a bad night. My contract is guaranteed. And so it's just the, the ripple effects of it. And so it's going to keep happening. Yeah, it has happened before. It is going to keep happening. And I will say too, this is bad. And it's weird that it's Chauncey Billups. Have you yet had your mind go to the place of like, wow, this could have been a lot worse.
- [32:19]
Colin Cowherd
Oh, because listen, think about this, if.
- [32:22]
Chris Mannix
It could happen to Chauncey Billups, isn't it fairly remarkable that he was coaching a bad team that wasn't trying to win anyway? Like, if it had, like, Chauncey Billups could have been the coach of the Knicks?
- [32:33]
Colin Cowherd
Well, I think. I think. Don't you think at some level, when you have a bad team, you. You validate it by saying, I'm just. I'm going to empty the bench anyway. I'm going to do it. I'm just going to give one guy a heads up. I could see where I. This is not the Western Conference finals where there are bonuses on the line. The world's watching. It's, hey, I was going to rest three starters. I'll just rest six. I could see somebody talking themselves into it.
- [33:02]
Chris Mannix
I. I listen. I guess I could, too. But if you can talk yourself into that and it works, and then your team gets good and you started doing it, like, where does it stop? Where does it stop? And why did he need to do it? And, like, we're going to learn so much more about all of this. The other thing that I've heard players say, and I've talked to a couple about it, but enough of them have said it publicly that I don't need to present it. Like, it's like any sort of proprietary thought is the amount of, like, harassment that the players are now getting from people in their dms, people in their mentions, whatever, because, like, you blew my parlay.
- [33:45]
Colin Cowherd
Yeah, that.
- [33:47]
Chris Mannix
That. There's no solve to it. Like, I. There's no. There's no. I can't think of a pot other than, like, I hope humans just start behaving better, but like, that. I understand why players who aren't caught up in this hate gambling because they just got to be like, God damn it. Like, it was one thing if I was getting yelled at for, like, your fantasy team. Now it's like a college kid who's in a fraternity at Alabama is DMing the quarterback because he blew his $20 parlay. Like, that's just got to be. It's got to be every game, for every player, constantly. And so, like, again, no solve. But just, like, the unintended consequences of the reality of everybody having access to everybody's pocket because everybody has a phone and everybody's online, and now everyone's gambling. Like, I'm not going to sit here and pretend like it's good, but it is just reality.
- [34:50]
Colin Cowherd
You know, it's funny, too. The NBA, more than any league, is a culture league, and it that's empowered the league. It's. I mean, I just look at the NBA, there's. There's stories about Paul Pierce playing in poker games all night, getting up the next night and dropping 30.
- [35:09]
Chris Mannix
Yep.
- [35:10]
Colin Cowherd
Legendary stories. Michael Jordan, you know, in golf outings the day of the NBA Finals or Eastern Conference finals.
- [35:19]
Chris Mannix
Yeah. Playing blackjack in Atlantic City between games against the Knicks. Yeah.
- [35:22]
Colin Cowherd
And card games on the team flight. I mean, the culture of the NBA is less brotherhood and more individualistic. And guys take care of themselves and their friends. It's different. It is. The NFL's really about. There is, I think in the NFL because everybody's playing hurt every week. And so there is sort of this understanding that we're all sacrificing in this. I mean, Mahomes career is basically hinges on people blocking for him. Basketball is, you get yours, bro, go get 25 tonight. And the great ones, the all time great ones, Danny, as you know, they can get 35 a night. Luka could score 40 every night. LeBron could have scored 45 virtually every night. There's no guarantee that Mahomes could go 45 of 48. It's just a different sport. There's no guarantee that Mookie Betts could hit 300 for a season. He couldn't hit until September. So the best, the great basketball players. There's always been sort of an independent cultural nature to it. And I think part of gambling in football or baseball, you'd be letting your teammates down. And in basketball, I think there's a sense of like, bro, I am the team. I am. I mean, I don't know, it feels like to me you just get it more in hoops.
- [36:45]
Katie Couric
More. More.
- [36:47]
Chris Mannix
I think more. I think more is probably. Is probably. But I mean, again, it's an addiction. It can get anybody, right? Pete, Pete, Pete Rose in baseball, the Black Sox in baseball. Like could a cornerback, who knows he's going to be assigned to guard, to shadow A.J. brown, tell his boys to bet the over on A.J. brown and just bite on every double move.
- [37:17]
Colin Cowherd
Right.
- [37:17]
Chris Mannix
But you know what I mean, like you could, you'd let your team down, you'd get crushed in the team meeting. But I'm just saying, like I. If you are a gambling addict in terrible debt or just have really bad judgment and you are a professional athlete, you can probably figure out a way to manipulate an outcome, not guarantee an outcome. Like, I don't think a cornerback of an NFL team can guarantee an outcome of a game, but you could give edge and you know, like that's all these professional gamblers are looking for. They're looking for edge. Like, sure things are great, but they're looking for edge. So I think every sport is. Is vulnerable to it.
- [38:06]
Colin Cowherd
So this is interesting. Brian Windhorst said this on the Rich Eisen Show. He said, I just want to point something out. The sports books caught the irregular betting on Terry Rose ear the day it happened, and guess. And guess what? The NBA. Rozier didn't play the rest of the season, and he faked the injury. So it wasn't because of the injury. The NBA pulled him because they knew it.
- [38:33]
Chris Mannix
Oh, that's interesting. I mean, I. I knew that the leagues caught it immediately because of that, but I didn't even put that together about the. The injury part of it.
- [38:43]
Colin Cowherd
So the NBA knew they pulled him. Pretend it's an injury. No. You saw. For the record, you saw the Internet. Rosier turnovers last year, I suppose.
- [38:55]
Chris Mannix
Yeah. Yeah, of course. Yeah.
- [38:56]
Colin Cowherd
They didn't make sense. It looked like AI generated. It was insane. I remember seeing them and thinking, there's something. He's troubled. I thought it was a psychotic episode. Yeah. I thought there was just something wrong with him. So what Windhorse is saying is, no, they knew something was up, and they. And they pulled him. Yeah. That's interesting.
- [39:19]
Chris Mannix
Yeah. I mean, listen. Bad. Bad day for the league. Bad day for the league.
- [39:28]
Colin Cowherd
And.
- [39:31]
Chris Mannix
I read Dan Wilkins column, and he was talking about, like, the erosion of public trust. Like, are you gonna. Like, are people gonna keep watching and keep believing that what they're seeing is on the up and up? And like, eventually there could be a tipping point with this sort of thing.
- [39:46]
Colin Cowherd
But I.
- [39:46]
Chris Mannix
And of course, I.
- [39:47]
Colin Cowherd
Isn't over. I mean, I was. I've been hearing that.
- [39:50]
Chris Mannix
I agree. I agree. I think that, like, we. Listen, if it. If a Super bowl ended up being exposed as being fixed, like, would the NFL ratings be down the next year?
- [40:08]
Colin Cowherd
Probably.
- [40:10]
Chris Mannix
You know, like, probably like that. But. But, but, but, but, like, but they wouldn't. They wouldn't go to, like, Monday Night Raw, you know, like, it would. It's not like I. I really think that we are so. We're talking addiction. We are so addicted as a culture to live sports that it. They operate as if they are bulletproof. Because they probably are. Like, that's. That's the. Some people would turn on it permanently. I mean, listen, there's a huge. There's a subsection of people, some of whom are in the media, that legitimately believe that the NFL has rigged the Kansas City Chiefs to Become a dynasty.
- [40:54]
Colin Cowherd
Yeah, no, I know like, you know.
- [40:56]
Chris Mannix
Like the Internet is just like people have been red pilled and they have people go down. You can get any conspiracy theory confirmed by your algorithm and so people believe that every call is, is rigged against them and that that's probably has gotten worse by gambling. But I don't think that people are tuning out because of it.
- [41:14]
Colin Cowherd
No, I, I, I, you know, like.
- [41:15]
Chris Mannix
I just, but, but it's just, it's just like going to be a thing that people like us are going to have to deal with in like. Why aren't you talking about this, Colin?
- [41:24]
Colin Cowherd
Why aren't you talking about Fix being.
- [41:26]
Chris Mannix
In for the Chiefs? It's like, because it's not.
- [41:28]
Colin Cowherd
I'll give you an example of something that I haven't talked about and nobody really cares. But I've, I'm sure there have been people that question it. The Pablo Torre Kawhi Leonard, Steve Ballmer investigation.
- [41:40]
Chris Mannix
Oh yeah, here we go.
- [41:42]
Colin Cowherd
And the reason I haven't talked about it is I don't care. The Clippers are not a topic on LA sports radio. It on in la, it's Dodgers, Lakers, Rams, usc. The Clippers aren't a top. So I'm as a syndicated host, nobody cares. Secondly, remember when LeBron had those comments about China and everybody killed LeBron and I didn't cover the story. People said that's cowardice. And I'm like, it's bureaucracy. Nobody cares. That's not a good topic. 90% of what I do. I think I'm a great topic selector. One of the things I found through the years, NCAA stories, the audience doesn't care. They know they're incompetent. The Kawhi Leonard. I think Pablo Torre is great. I tried to, we looked at hiring him at the Volume, I think he's terrific. But it's the Clippers. Kawhi is an enigmatic, nonverbal, unlikable star. The Clippers are the second. They're about the eighth most popular sports topic in the city in which they are based. And it's complicated. It's a complicated story.
- [42:49]
Chris Mannix
But I like what you said about Pablo. My guess is you wish that that podcast was under the Volumes umbrella.
- [42:56]
Colin Cowherd
I think it's made for podcasting, not made for broadcasting.
- [43:00]
Chris Mannix
Right? Yeah, but those are two separate things.
- [43:02]
Colin Cowherd
That's right.
- [43:02]
Chris Mannix
Like, like, like it, it not being a topic for you and your audience and your TV and radio show is like a totally reasonable like editorial choice by you. But since you brought it up, fascinating story. Yeah, like between you and me, right? Just like if no one else was listening to this right now, between you and me, if we were having a cocktail, be like, holy, there's, there's something there. You know, he, he like it.
- [43:29]
Colin Cowherd
Joe Rogan.
- [43:29]
Chris Mannix
It is interesting.
- [43:30]
Colin Cowherd
Joe Rogan has topics you could never put on TV or radio.
- [43:34]
Chris Mannix
Correct, of course. And then, yeah, absolutely.
- [43:37]
Colin Cowherd
I'm in my car for 40 minutes. I'm like, lizards are fascinating, you know?
- [43:43]
Chris Mannix
Yeah. So.
- [43:44]
Colin Cowherd
So it's like I every day choose stuff I can talk about in eight minute segments. So one of the things about this, this morning when I woke up and saw Terry Rozier, I'm like, Jesus. So I first thought, is this, Am I into this? Because I used to work in Portland and then I'm no MVP head coach. I thought he was just in the poker part of it.
- [44:06]
Chris Mannix
Well, at first it looked like he was. And then when people actually got to read the, you know, dozens and dozens of pages of the thing, it was pretty clear that he's not just linked to the.
- [44:16]
Colin Cowherd
But I don't think it's. I really, I, I think all of us bake in. We don't trust our government, we don't trust politicians. We, we hopefully we trust our partners. But yeah, I think nobody wins. Leagues don't win. Vegas doesn't win. The sports books don't win. The teams don't win. If there is rigged sports and they all sort of patrol it, you can patrol it with preactive, proactive protection signage, lectures.
- [44:55]
Chris Mannix
Symposiums, severe punishments. Severe punishments.
- [44:58]
Colin Cowherd
Or you can do it by finding it post investigation. Right. Or post action. So what I always tell people who think about the rig stuff, I'm like, if you would have picked the NFL to be rigged, would you have picked the two New York teams to be unwatchable for a decade?
- [45:17]
Chris Mannix
Right, right, of course.
- [45:19]
Colin Cowherd
And then Green Bay and Kansas City, the Colts are the surprise of the league. All these tiny markets. Baltimore's always good and New York's always bad. So I think fans are prone when they lose a bet to think it's rigged. And that's why that chorus is always, you know, ready and willing to fire.
- [45:40]
Chris Mannix
Yeah. And, and I think also I forget who the stand up comic is, but he's got a hilarious bit that comes up in my algorithm making fun of people who believe in every conspiracy theory. But he's like, I also judge you if you believe in no conspiracy theories. He's like, you think the government's batting a thousand. Like, you know, and so like, again, it's a It's a funny punchline. And the. And so, like, you know, was there something with the. The lottery to get Patrick Ewing to New York? Maybe, like, maybe there was back in the 80s. But, like, do I think it was rigged for Cooper Flag to go to Dallas? No, I don't think that Adam Silver and what, Ernst and Young committed felonies to, like, commit fraud. Right. But, like, I think that, like, there's just. There's always like, a. Whenever a tragedy happens, there's immediately a cottage industry saying that it was. That it was a conspiracy.
- [46:41]
Colin Cowherd
So this was an interesting. To me, interesting journey with Tim Donaghy, because I read a lot about it, and I. And I brought him on my show before, and I think Tim Donaghy confused rigged with human. A human condition. So he would say, well, if this guy was officiating, he always gave the veterans the call. And I always use this. I officiated for three years in college. $8 a game. Child of divorce. I ate because I officiated four intramural games a night. And I'm not joking. I took it very seriously. And when I believe that, I really. I got to the. I remember the guy that ran it. He's like, you could be a professional official. He goes, you really care. And I'm like, yeah. I mean, these guys are working hard. I'm going to beers, and I'm at frat parties with these guys. I don't want them to hate me. I want to be a pro. And one of the things I always found with basketball, Danny, I always rewarded the more talented player because more talented players always got the first step, jumped 3 inches higher. And the other players were always reacting to the better athlete. And so during the Tim Donaghy thing, I was like, yeah, the veteran star players do get the call because they're better players, and they do get their ass in the right spot and their elbows and the angle. And so my take was always. Tim Donache thought there was lots of guys doing it. And my take was, no, Tim. That's the humanity. If you go look at baseball umpiring, Danny. And I really looked into this because a chapter I wrote in one of my books, there were umpires that were pitcher umpires. Curt Schilling talked about it. He's like, yeah, this guy's had six no hitters. This guy's had none. Some guys gave you the corner. Is that rigged? Kurt Schilling used to keep a book on umpires. He's like, this guy will not give you the corner. This guy will this guy gives you the inside strike. This guy gives you the high strike. Herm Edwards told me this one time. He goes, there are officiating groups in the NFL that do not call PI like you can grab and push and they just, they're very, very willing. The lead official is. It's an old school guy that likes physicality. I think sometimes we think that's rigged. But everybody knows in all these sports there are officials, you know, there was, it could have been Steve. Javi was always good to road teams. He was like. And that was Steve maybe overcorrecting.
- [49:12]
Chris Mannix
I think it was Steve Joby thinking he was impartial.
- [49:14]
Colin Cowherd
Yeah, Tim. Some of these officials, like, I'm not going to be. Because of proximity of fans. I'm not going to be a homer. That's not rigged. That's just the human condition. That's just who we are.
- [49:26]
Chris Mannix
But I can imagine someone listening to this entire podcast and us 15 minutes ago saying that we've probably seen more fixed sporting events than we know of.
- [49:38]
Colin Cowherd
Yeah, probably, right?
- [49:39]
Chris Mannix
And now saying, but that doesn't mean the things are rigged. And that's why when people see an injury that doesn't look serious or a weird outcome or a bad turnover or a drop pass or a horrible call, your mind goes to it. And it's not, it's not rational, but it's like, well, if it, if it happened with Donaghy and it happened with Pete Rose and now it happened with Chauncey Billups and it happened with Porter and it happened with Rogier and it happened with ABC&D College program, it's like, well, if I have 15 examples of it happening, maybe I'm spotting the 16th, like, maybe I'm on the wrong side of it. And so like, because, so that it, that's why this is fascinating and why it's confusing and why I think it's a problem where there can be improvements, but I don't think it's a solve. Like, I think, I think this is a problem without a solution. Because gambling is not going away. Legalized gambling is not going away. In fact, it's going the other way, right? We still don't have. It's not federally legal. Like, there are people like, I cannot bet in New York State on a legal app. I cannot bet awards, mvp, Coach of the year, rookie of the year, whatever. Now I have ways to get bets down, right? I can text a buddy in Illinois who will place the bet for me and then I'll venmo him the money or whatever. Right. I have the ways to get it down personally, but there are people who live in a state where they cannot gamble and they will drive Sunday morning across state lines to place their bets. People will find a way. That line in Jurassic park, like nature will find a way. Like I was when I was in Kansas City when we did First Things first before Chiefs Eagles, was meeting with a buddy I used to do radio with. It's, it's legal in Kansas and just becoming legal in Missouri. But it hadn't come online yet. And he was like, every Sunday morning my wife knows 9am I go, I get Starbucks, I bring it home for her. And then I drive 25 minutes across state line, pull off and there's 15 cars at the same exit across state line. And it's people placing their bets in the parking lot because they're crossing the state lines. And it's like, is that addiction or is it entertainment or whatever? But the point is it ain't going away. And now Missouri has illegal, so my buddy doesn't have to drive across state lines anymore. And so if I want to make a bet on, you know, Giannis for MVP and I can't do it in New York, I'll just text a buddy, I'll find a way to do it.
- [52:25]
Colin Cowherd
Well, it's, I own two wine stores in Connecticut, Maximum Beverage. And for a long time, I mean there's, there's certain everything.
- [52:33]
Chris Mannix
Send me some Pinot noirs, send me some blends.
- [52:37]
Colin Cowherd
Maximum Beverage folks. It's, we got the best single barrel bourbons, everything.
- [52:44]
Chris Mannix
Great, great.
- [52:45]
Colin Cowherd
So, you know, when I, when, when I was introduced to this business, you know, every, it's the wild, wild west. I mean it's, it's, you know what you can do in New York, Massachusetts. And we found out very quickly that, you know, if Connecticut had stores closed on Sunday, well, people in Connecticut would, let's just take a 45 minute drive.
- [53:04]
Chris Mannix
To the Mass border.
- [53:07]
Colin Cowherd
People are going to find a way. Listen, I grew up in Washington State. I don't know how it happened, but pot was plentiful in my town from the time I was 12 until the time it was legalized. It's just, there's a lot of plants. Everything grows in the Northwest and there was pot everywhere. And so you can, like we said, prohibition doesn't work. People are going to have sex, drink and gamble.
- [53:38]
Chris Mannix
I, I love all of those things.
- [53:41]
Colin Cowherd
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Chris Mannix
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- [56:22]
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- [57:22]
Katie Couric
On the latest episode of Next Question with me, Katie Couric. I sat down with Bernie Sanders, who is 84 years old, has spent 34 years in Congress and he consented still pack a rally with people a quarter of his age.
- [57:35]
Colin Cowherd
Denver, 34,000 people come out. Salt Lake City 20,000 people out. You know, huge turnouts. People are really dissatisfied about the status quo.
- [57:46]
Katie Couric
His Fighting Oligarchy tour with AOC and other young progressives has become a movement. But is his message too far to the left? Well, he certainly doesn't think so.
- [57:56]
Colin Cowherd
Does that sound like a radical idea, Katie? Is that too far left for you?
- [57:59]
Katie Couric
Okay, okay, wait, wait. I get your point, Bernie. We talk about the billionaire class, the cost of living and of course the government shutdown, not to mention the current state of the Democratic party.
- [58:14]
Colin Cowherd
To me, the failure of the Democratic party has been an unwillingness to recognize the real issues.
- [58:20]
Katie Couric
Open your free iHeartRadio app search next Question with Katie Couric and listen now.
- [58:28]
Announcer (Hell in Heaven Podcast)
In the new podcast Hell in Heaven. Two young Americans moved to the Costa Rican jungle to to start over. But one will end up dead, the other tried for murder. Not once people went wild, not twice, stunned, but three times. John and Anne Bender are rich and attractive and they're devoted to each other. They create a nature reserve and build a spectacular circular home high on the top the of of a hill. But little by little, their dream starts to crumble and our couple retreat from reality.
- [59:08]
Colin Cowherd
They lose it.
- [59:09]
Chris Mannix
They actually lose it.
- [59:10]
Announcer (Hell in Heaven Podcast)
They Sort of went nuts until one night, everything spins out of control. Listen to Hell in Heaven on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
- [59:31]
Colin Cowherd
So I had to scrap my lead today. Literally with 20 minutes to go, I scrapped my lead. We had. I thought I was getting Kash Patel on the show. What happened?
- [59:42]
Chris Mannix
Oh, wow. Yeah, I thought, yeah, Wow.
- [59:46]
Colin Cowherd
I hope everybody realizes that in 30 minutes against the best front line in the league, Wemby did wilt. 40 points, no turnovers.
- [60:00]
Chris Mannix
Oh, hell yeah. Let's talk about it.
- [60:02]
Colin Cowherd
Okay, timeout. What is he, 22?
- [60:06]
Chris Mannix
Yeah.
- [60:07]
Colin Cowherd
Okay. 40 points, 30 minutes, three blocks, no turnovers, 15 rebounds. Lost in all of this. That's one of the top five lines in league history. 30 minutes and 40. He shot 70% from the floor. And Dallas has the best front line in the league.
- [60:25]
Chris Mannix
Yeah. Broke my basketball brain. Like, I. I feel like, listen, I have loved him ever since I've seen him as a prospect. Everyone has. I've talked about him in like, pretty, like lofty terms because of what he can be. But the maturity of the offensive game that he showed last night. I put together like a list of superlatives today on, on first things first that I ran past Nick in the segment that we do together on Thursdays. And I was like, like, which of these do you think at the end of his career we're going to be able to cross out the names of the guys who currently have the records and it's going to be him. So, like three guys have the record for most defensive player of the year.
- [61:14]
Colin Cowherd
Awards with four, or he'll win 12.
- [61:18]
Chris Mannix
That's what I'm saying. But it's like Ben Wallace, Rudy Gobert, they have four. Like I would, I would lay minus 500 that he gets more than four. I mean, obviously the game minimum threshold is like the only impediment to that. But like, he's 22, he's going to. I agree. 12 is on the board. Only player ever to win the scoring title and defensive player of the year, Michael Jordan did it once. Feels like Wembanyama could be the second.
- [61:49]
Colin Cowherd
You know what I thought about watching him last night?
- [61:52]
Chris Mannix
What's that?
- [61:53]
Colin Cowherd
I always had this feeling that if you did a one on one tournament, Michael and LeBron, Kevin Durant would be up there, the bigs, Giannis would be good, but he doesn't have the ability, you know, because there would be three in the key to make it fair. I looked at that and I thought to myself, I'm not sure how many points LeBron in his prime would score on Wimby? I'm not sure. He blocked a shot. He got a rebound over Derek Lively last night, and Jay Billis said it. Lively, 611. He looked like a sixth grader. He. He blocked a shot. These guys that are 6, 10, and long, they turn around. Wemby moves off his player. He's blocking the ball near the elbow, somewhere between the wrist and the elbow. And I think to myself, if you added 6 inches to Kevin Durant and had the same quickness and a little more length, like I'm watching him and I'm like, I'm not really sure how you defend it. You don't really defend this.
- [63:03]
Chris Mannix
No, you don't. You don't defend it. And like, I just, I. I've been thinking about it like, basically all day. I think we're going to just see things that we've never seen before, that we're not even going to fully realize what we're seeing. Like, he did something last year that I like, demanded we get into Breakfast Ball because I'm like, I promise you, no one cares about this game, but I promise you, no one's ever seen this. He shot a three pointer and it was like, you know, he was like fading back a little bit on the three, like a pure jump shot. Like, he wasn't like running towards the hoop. He shot a normal three pointer and he could tell off his hand that it was long. So he lands from the jumper and charges and he tip slammed. He put like a put back slam. His own missed three pointer. Like we've seen that on free throws, but on a three pointer, it was insane.
- [64:03]
Colin Cowherd
Yeah.
- [64:04]
Chris Mannix
And I, I just think we're gonna. We're like, did he take two dribbles from half court and dunk? Like, you know, I think, I think we're gonna just like start to like, recap. We're gonna have to have like, recalibrate.
- [64:17]
Colin Cowherd
Yeah.
- [64:17]
Chris Mannix
What is actually possible?
- [64:19]
Colin Cowherd
That's Mike. There's a story about Mike Szyzewski, and I think Mark Few was there and Jim Boeheim. It was Olympic basketball and it was one of their first looks at LeBron playing in a practice. And I had heard this story. I don't know if it was from a friend of Jay Billis or it was somebody that. And I like, by the way, Jay Billis on pro basketball. I think he does a good job. I really do. I think he really.
- [64:42]
Chris Mannix
He clearly cares. He clearly. He does his homework. He keeps it to the game. Yeah. He's very good.
- [64:48]
Colin Cowherd
Yeah, Jay's really good. And I think it was a friend of Jay Bilis that told me Jay had told him they were doing a practice and Krzyzewski was at half court, kind of arms folded, sitting back on the bench, and there was a loose ball, and LeBron picked it up full steam, swooped in to pick it up and dribbled twice and dunked it. And Krzyzewski just was beside himself. He's like, that's six dribbles, maybe five with Jordan. And it was, to your point, like, Krzyzewski was taken back by it. He turned to the Bayheim or fewer, both, and just went, why don't we just watch? Steve Kerr, through a friend, told a story one of the first times he had to face LeBron. And it was just like, I give up. I don't even know, whatever. Like, what do you want me to do? So I think. I think Wemby similarly. I just. I was watching with my wife, I said, see that guy in the shoes that are the bright shoes? I see he'll probably be the best player in the league this time next year. And I said it today. Luka and SGA can't dominate a game on the defensive end, and Giannis can't shoot, you know, beyond 16ft. Jokic is a more complete offensive player, moderate mid defensive player by the All Star break. I mean, Jesus, Danny, six more games, like last night. Is he the second best player in the league?
- [66:19]
Chris Mannix
Yeah, I mean, like, it. So I think that this is it. It all depends on how we define this. Like, I always define that question by, like, the literal definition of what that means. Like, like a scout's eye. Like the best basketball player. Basketball people and media, really, just not just basketball, because I think we do it in football, too. We, like, Like, I don't think Tom Brady is the best quarterback because I. He is the most accomplished. Sure, he is the goat. Yeah, but like. But, like, best quarterback is not goat to me.
- [66:57]
Colin Cowherd
To me.
- [66:58]
Chris Mannix
Because. Because. Because it's like a scouting term, right? The guy last night's the best player. Wemby is. Wemby is the best player because let's. I obviously agree with you. Jokic is a better offensive player.
- [67:14]
Colin Cowherd
Yeah, more.
- [67:15]
Chris Mannix
Yeah, yeah, yeah, sure, I agree. But, like, how much better Is he offensively? 10%? 15%? Is he 20% better offensively? WEMBY is a hundred percent better defensively than Jokic. So, like, you know what I mean? Like, yeah, the. The gap between, like Nick was saying today, that Anthony Davis would have been, like, the number one pick in the draft to, like, guard Wemby. I would say it would be Giannis. Younger, stronger, more like. Like, stronger, basically, than Anthony Davis. But, like, they're both. It's. They're two of the top three or four guys that you would choose to. To try to guard. To guard Wemby. But so, like, the gap between Wemby and the second best defensive player in basketball is the Atlantic Ocean compared to the gap between Jokic and the second best offensive player in basketball. Right. Like, so he's incredible.
- [68:16]
Colin Cowherd
Yeah.
- [68:17]
Chris Mannix
And so I. But in basketball, we usually say, like, you have to do it in the playoffs, you have to win an mvp, you have to win a title before you can have, like, the best player alive title. I don't agree. I personally. I personally am like Aaron Rodgers in his prime, Patrick Mahomes in his prime. They're better than Tom Brady or Drew Brees. They're not yet more. I mean, Mahomes is actually not more accomplished than Brees, but, like, you know what I mean? Like, they're not. Have more yards, whatever. But that guy last night, he's going to have a quadruple double this year.
- [68:53]
Colin Cowherd
Yeah.
- [68:53]
Chris Mannix
It's only happened four times in the history of the league. It would not surprise. No one's ever done it more than once. David Robinson did it once. Hakeem did it once. It would not at all surprise me if Victor Wembanyama has multiple quadruple doubles this season at 22 years old.
- [69:08]
Colin Cowherd
Well, it's almost like. It's almost like in Hollywood, you don't have to win an Oscar. I mean, I can remember the first. Remember the movie Capote.
- [69:19]
Chris Mannix
Yeah, of course.
- [69:20]
Colin Cowherd
Philip Seymour Hoffman. And I. I remember watching that movie, and he was in Boogie Nights. Everything he was in, he was great. But I remember watching that and thinking, oh, that's the world's best actor. If you go back and watch Capote and you look at Truman Capote's personality and what he did, it doesn't sound anything like any other character. And I remember watching it and just thinking, it doesn't matter if he wins an award. That's the best performance of the year. I don't even know. And so I see this all the time in sports where I'm like. And we've seen this in tennis. Like, you know, Federer was the most profound. But, you know, you're watching Djokovic at some point, that was younger, and you're like, well, that's the. More. That's the more ferocious player, that's the more intimidating player. His winning points are more impressive than Federer. Federer is just like Brady. He's efficient, he's smart. You know, he has this capacity to play his best on the very best points, but he loses many points. So I, I agree with you. I think I watched Wemby and I didn't say this on the air, but I thought if he did that game like two more times in a week, you're like, that's the new standard. Well, that's the best player.
- [70:33]
Chris Mannix
Well, no, right. And listen, it is of course possible that they keep his minutes low all year and that the offensive efficiency cannot sustain at that level. You know, like, it's possible that that's not like a majority opinion by the end of the year, but, like, unless he gets hurt. Yeah, I legitimately think he will win the next 10 defensive player of the year awards. Yeah, I'm not, I, I think every year he plays the 65 game minimum into his mid, early to mid-30s. I think he will win the Defensive Player of the Year award every single year. And then if You're a top 10 offensive player and the defensive player of the year, you're the best player. That's just how it works. I'm sorry. It is a two way sport. Like, offense is more important than defense. But like, he, how many shots do you think he altered last night? Or how many shots do you think people didn't take because he was there last night? Like, it's, it's like, oh, he had it. He had three blocks, but he had to have altered 12 shots, 15 shots.
- [71:42]
Colin Cowherd
How many times did Deion Sanders get attacked in his prime? You just threw to the other side of the field. So it's like people like, well, he only had 12 interceptions. It's like, that's because nobody threw to his side. His, his interception percentage based on targeted throws was through the roof.
- [72:01]
Chris Mannix
Yeah, you have to, you have to watch the game. Like, you have to watch the game to be like, oh, a six, nine. Dude is dribbling into the paint and then retreating. Like, that doesn't happen. They all try to get fouled. Like, they all try to just jump over someone because they're 69 and the other guy's maybe 611. No, he's 75 and doesn't foul. Like, it's, it's unbelievable.
- [72:24]
Colin Cowherd
And.
- [72:27]
Chris Mannix
They, I know people keep wanting to give them Giannis. That would be insane. Obviously, if Giannis and Wemby played together, they would win the title this year.
- [72:36]
Colin Cowherd
Up There, I think between Stefan, Castle, Wemby, their recent draft picks, I wouldn't scroll in Harper, they're starting five is excellent. Yeah.
- [72:45]
Chris Mannix
I mean, I think I could see them trading de' Aaron Fox.
- [72:48]
Colin Cowherd
Yeah.
- [72:48]
Chris Mannix
Like, if, if. If Dylan Harper is what NBA people think he was going to. Like, I, I had an NBA person tell me that they could not believe. He's like, people are underselling the fact that they got the second pick in the draft. Everyone's like, oh, man, it would have been amazing if it was Cooper Flag. Like, yeah. They're like, Dylan Harper is going to be awesome. And he had 15 points last night in his NBA debut. And, like, looks smooth.
- [73:09]
Colin Cowherd
Like, you notice if, if that.
- [73:11]
Chris Mannix
If that's a real player.
- [73:13]
Colin Cowherd
Did you know they.
- [73:14]
Chris Mannix
They're going to be great this year.
- [73:16]
Colin Cowherd
So the last couple of drafts have. So last year's draft was very good. 2026 NBA draft supposed to be great. And two things are converging the nil money. American college programs are buying the best Spaniards. They're buying the best European players. So you're getting about 10 to 12 European players that were not in college basketball three years ago. Also, about six to eight guys are staying in college one more year.
- [73:41]
Chris Mannix
Did you see the story, those Izzo comments about the kids who went or the kid who went from the G League to college?
- [73:50]
Colin Cowherd
Yeah.
- [73:52]
Chris Mannix
I don't know how I. That doesn't. So, like, can LeBron go play four years at Duke? Like, I, I'm confused. Like, I know that, like, you can get paid internationally and you can get paid in the G League and you can get paid in college. Like, technically you have eligibility, so what's the difference? But, like, come on, we got to put a cap on it somewhere. Like, I don't understand. Like, I was like, is those. Is those comments? Like, oh, that's kind of an old man yells at clouds thing. I was like, no. Like, I haven't been following the story very closely, but, like, I think I'm with him. Like, we can't call it college basketball if you can go play. And I get it for international players. Like, if you take. If you took money From a under 18 team in Lithuania and then you want to go play at Kansas. Like, I got no problem with that. But, like, if you're 24 years old and you've been in the G League for three years, you can just go play college basketball. I don't know if I like that. Yeah, no, that doesn't seem right.
- [74:57]
Colin Cowherd
No, no. I mean, that's the Nil's got all these, like, exits on it that are very, you know, people are always yelling. You know, I talked about this today with James Franklin and Billy Napier. Everybody's like, these kids make a bunch of money. And I'm like, The coaches make 11 million. Now you got to beat good teams. Like, the whole world's changed. I used to think it was ridiculous to fire a college coach mid season. Now I'm like, well, he made 12 million and he was bad against top 20 teams. It's time to fire him.
- [75:22]
Chris Mannix
Yeah. And I have no problem with college athletes getting paid, obviously. I'm just like. Like, this is. It has gotten complicated. Like, because, yeah, there, of course there will be kids that like, go play college basketball and make a few million bucks and stay in college because that's going to be the height of your earning and that's great and that's how it should be. But I don't know that I love pro basketball. Still have eligibility. Like we got. They got to figure that part of it out. But when Binyama now is like, they're going to be the most popular league pass team ever. Like, I can't imagine missing these guys games. Like, I'm going to put it. I'm going to put him on, even if it's just the second. Second screen just to like, keep an eye on it to see if he like, dunks from half court. Like, it's. It is insane what that guy can do.
- [76:11]
Colin Cowherd
Here's. Here's a weird thing that popped into my head. The ability to go from the G league to college. Like it's a line you're not comfortable crossing. It's almost like if you go on a ski vacation with four couples and everybody decides to put on bathing suits and go in the hot tub and you're mostly naked sitting next to all your wives friends, and then one guy just starts making out with one of the other wives. You're like, whoa, that doesn't feel right to me. I know we're naked and we're in water and we have champagne, but. But that's a lot of bridge too far for me. That's what you're saying, basically.
- [76:43]
Chris Mannix
Oh, that's a very specific example that if you want to unpack that a little bit more. I know you probably have some houses with hot tubs that overlook the mountains, so I don't know what situations. That sounds lovely. It sounds like, you know, let your freak flag fly. But yeah, I just, I. When I read those, like, my buddy said it to me, he's like, what do you think about G league players playing in college?
- [77:04]
Colin Cowherd
I'm like, they're not a lot of.
- [77:06]
Chris Mannix
I'm like, they're not allowed to. And he sent me the news article. He's like, what are you talking about? Izzo went insane over it. And I've like read the article. I'm like, I need to catch up on this because I'm a hundred percent with Izzo. Like, it just, it just doesn't. Even though you could make more money in college than you can in the G league and like maybe there should be a loophole for international doesn't feel maybe there should be like an age minimum and maximum. Like they got to figure something out. You should not be able to go be coached by an NBA organization and then go play for the Missouri Tigers. I just, I don't, I don't like it.
- [77:39]
Colin Cowherd
And you shouldn't make out with your friend's wife just because you're half naked in a hot tub with a glass of champagne. And Vale.
- [77:47]
Chris Mannix
Everybody know in Vail. Now I've gotten this hotel. It's as if it happened. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Hypothetically speaking, at the Four Seasons in Vale. Yeah, the Four Seasons. And it was Dom Perignon and there were too many strawberries with chocolate on them but it was the white chocolate so you understand that was fun. That hour flew by the volume.
- [78:14]
Colin Cowherd
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- [79:36]
Chris Mannix
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- [80:15]
Colin Cowherd
B r-I k.com on the latest episode.
- [80:18]
Katie Couric
Of Next Question with Me, Katie Couric, I sat down with Bernie Sanders. We've talked many times over the years, and today he even throws a few questions my way.
- [80:27]
Colin Cowherd
All right, are you ready for another question?
- [80:29]
Chris Mannix
Go ahead, hit me, Bernie.
- [80:33]
Katie Couric
We talk about the billionaire class, the cost of living, and of course, the government shutdown. Listen to Next Question with me, Katie Couric on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
- [80:47]
Colin Cowherd
Hello, America's sweetheart. Johnny Knoxville here. I want to tell you about my new true crime podcast, Crimeless Hillbilly Heist from Smartless Media, Campside Media and Big Money Players. It's a wild tale about a gang of high functioning nitwits who somehow pulled off America's third largest cash heist.
- [81:09]
Chris Mannix
Kind of like Robin Hood, except for the part where he steals from the rich and gives to the poor. I'm not that generous.
- [81:17]
Colin Cowherd
It's a damn near inspiring true story for anyone out there who's ever shot for the moon, then just totally muffed up the landing. They stole $17 million and had not bought a ticket to help him escape.
- [81:30]
Announcer (Hell in Heaven Podcast)
So we're sitting like, oh God, what do we do?
- [81:32]
Colin Cowherd
What do we do?
- [81:33]
Chris Mannix
That was dumb.
- [81:34]
Colin Cowherd
People do not follow my example. Listen to Crimeless Hillbilly Heist on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
- [81:47]
Chris Mannix
This is an I Heart podcast.