← The Herd with Colin Cowherd
The Herd with Colin Cowherd
Thunder Win The NBA Title! OKC’s Defense Top 5 All-Time, Kevin Durant Traded To Rockets, SHORTEN The Postseason
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- [00:00]
Host
This is an iHeart podcast.
- [00:04]
Colin Cowherd
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- [00:39]
Host
Summer is here and you can now get almost anything you need for your sunny days delivered with Uber Eats.
- [00:46]
Colin Cowherd
Now what do we mean by almost?
- [00:48]
Host
Well, you can't get a well groomed lawn delivered, but you can get chicken parm delivered. A nice tan. Sorry. A box fan? Happily, yes. A day of sunshine? No. A box of fine wines? Yes. Uber Eats can definitely get you that. Get almost almost anything delivered with Uber Eats. Order now. Alcohol in select markets. Product availability may vary by region. See app for details.
- [01:18]
Guest 1
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Colin Cowherd
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- [02:51]
Colin Cowherd
At the end of the season, there's only one team that can call themselves NBA champs. Only one player that can call themselves the number one pick in the NFL draft. While there's only one electric SUV worthy of the title. The ultimate. The all electric BMW ix. What I love about the IX is that it delivers legendary BMW performance. I've had several. While its sleek design exudes innovative style from the inside out. Not to mention how much space and utility it provides. Over 75 cubic feet of cargo space. The IX is completely changing the game with an all electric suv. The greatest legends of sports never compromise any part of the game. So why would you settle for anything less from your suv? After all, there's only one ultimate the BMW ix. Everything you love about the ultimate driving machine. Electrified BMW.
- [03:45]
Guest 2
All right, welcome to Hoops Tonight here at the Volume. Happy Sunday everybody. Hope all of you guys are having a great weekend. Well, today I woke up this morning thinking we're going to crown a new NBA champion today. It's been a long time since we've had a Game 7 of the NBA finals. And it got off to a little bit of a bummer start as Tyrese Haliburton goes down with what we can only assume is an Achilles injury. The eighth Achilles tear in the NBA this season. A very bizarre trend. Colin and I are going to spend some time talking about that towards the tail end of the show tonight. But the Oklahoma City Thunder are the 2025 NBA champions. Colin, what's your big takeaway from the NBA Finals this year?
- [04:22]
Colin Cowherd
Well, our NFL champion Philadelphia is about roster construction and the best GM and you have a clear number one but. And that's Oklahoma City. Whereas the modern games about scoring and wings and high flying. They're about their general manager, their depth, their youth, their legs and a kind of non vertical leading score who goes against type for the NBA stars we fall in love with. And you know I've been saying this on FS1. I've been saying this for months is the NBA now because of the aprons and the CBA is going to be like the NFL. We're going to talk more about general managers. You can't stack players and I think you know they were the best team all season. The home court ended up mattering against Indy and Denver, you know, really formidable opponents that had some older star players. But you know, I think in the end, you know, when you, when you look Back at this season, you'll go, well, they were a dominant regular season team. They weren't a great road team in the playoffs, but they were dominant at home. And that's where they were crowned. And, you know, that's why the regular season does matter. It may not look like the playoffs, but Oklahoma City I don't think is winning this thing on the road. And so they earned it. And you know, the injuries, gutting, but that stuff happens. I mean, KD's gone down in big games. I mean, it happens. So. And I think over the course of this season, OKC was the best team.
- [05:57]
Guest 2
Yeah, I'm not interested in any talk about asterisks. For the most part in NBA history, almost every championship has some injury you can point to that impacted things in one way or another. And, and ultimately, I think Oklahoma City did this to healthy teams along the way, too. They played, they played some really good teams, Colin. They went through the best, the best player in the world and Nicole Jokic and played him into the first three consecutive bad game stretch I've literally ever seen him play. They took that Minnesota team that was kicking everybody's butt and they handled them like, easily. And then the Pacers, who have been kind of the enigma of this, of this playoff run, every time they needed to beat them, they were able to contain them and keep them under control. I, you know, we Talked after Game 5, like, there is this test that you have to pass to beat the Oklahoma City Thunder. And it's that when the shit hits the fan and there's a few minutes left in a big game where the series is hanging in the balance, they are going to tighten the screws defensively. In every single series, the opposing team fell apart, whether it was Denver at multiple spots in game four, in the fourth quarter, in game five, in the fourth quarter, the entirety of game seven, what we saw in big spots against Minnesota, specifically down the stretch of game four in this series, in game four, down the stretch, they just strangle the life out of Indiana. In game five, it's 95, 93 off of a Siakam offensive rebound. 3. It's a two point game. You're like, oh, man, this could go either way. Literally turns the, the Pacers over four consecutive times just with the strength of their defense. And then again tonight, you know, admirable effort from the Pacers there in that first half to keep things competitive. T.J. mcConnell, I'll always remember the way he played in this series. What a remarkable performance from him. But they came out the Gates in that third quarter and they tightened the screws and they turned the Pacers over and they got out in transition. They finished this game with 23 force turnovers and 32 points off of turnovers. That's the star of this team.
- [07:56]
Colin Cowherd
I said this the other day to you is the one thing you have to have against OKC is two elite ball handlers. So when Halliburton goes down, they play with guts and toughness and length, but in the end they just turnovers. There's no Halliburton if you don't have elite ball handlers against this team. I mean, we've fallen in love with a 3 and D. And the wings, well, OKC's got a lot of them, but there is a way to come is to have guys that can create space that you can't trap and double them. And TJ McConnell is excellent. But again, when Halliburton got hurt the first time, again, they show great courage and gusto, but there's just limitations on that. You can only play down your most important player so long. So, you know, there was that. I think it was like at one point there was like a. I wrote it down here. There was a huge 19 to 2 Oklahoma City run. A lot of that kick started by defense. And so they just feast. And you know what? You know what? They're a little bit like. They're like a fighter who sends his blood like, okay, see, they're not dominant enough offensively to just blow you out against great teams. Against Denver and Indy, they can score, they have runs, but when they sense blood, somebody's in foul trouble, somebody's hurt your star. You know, they have a matchup advantage. Man, they play downhill. They play downhill fast. And you look up and you're like, well, this was a four point game. Now it's a 13 point game. And, you know, that's what great teams do. Their run looks different than a Jordan explosion or a Shaq Kobe explosion, but nonetheless, it's a burst and everybody looks different. You know, I mean, so I listen all my notes here, I look through. I kept waiting for the inevitable run and it happened. And it was, you know, it was off turnovers. And I just kind of felt like I saw an SRR stat. I think that's what it's called, an SRR stat about Indiana. And they said if Indiana wins, they'll be the worst champion since the 1978 Washington Bullets, which, by the way, I can name the entire roster because it was when I fell in love with basketball. But the truth was is if Indiana won, it was probably our weakest champion though. I love them. And OKC wins. At least we can hang this boy. That's a top five defensive team all time. We can hang something that sounds like a champion. NBA's leading score deepest team in years, all time top five defense that sounds like a champion, does it not?
- [10:36]
Guest 2
Absolutely. Their defense is one of the great defenses that has ever played in the NBA. Like the that was true in the metrics. And all we can do to tie that case together is what the metrics showed in the regular season. And then what did you do in the playoffs against the competition you faced? This was a Pacers offense that was lighting everybody up, Colin. And they got strangled every single time it mattered. Nicole Yic is literally the best offensive player I've ever watched. And he, and they had him under control in, in every pivotal moment of that series. That is the type of defense that we watch. You know, this Thunder offense was frustrating sometimes. We're going to talk about Shea in a few minutes. Like Shay was great every time he needed to be great. But there were some downsides here. They he had a game in the series, we had zero assists. They had games where they'd moved the ball poorly, where they were out of rhythm, out of flow. They're young players, young players against elite playoff defense. That that's going to take some time to figure out. And no, there's no doubt that if the Thunder are going to have sustained success in this league, they're going to have to figure out some things offensively to be better year after year after year. But their defense right now is elite hold the trophy defense. And that's what came through for them again today.
- [11:47]
Colin Cowherd
I was really interested to see if Chet Holmgren could deliver finally. And I thought in the second half it was like, okay, Chet Holmgren played with more confidence. That was my only question. I thought, man, if this is a three point game and there's four minutes left, OKC home favorite could get really tight. And they left, no doubt. But I thought Holmgren and J Dub both in the second half played well in that run. And so, and that was one of my concerns is that I've never seen a young team like this young won a championship. And you know, I was thinking about this as you were talking about SJ SGA usually, let's say for instance Shaq wasn't hitting his free throws. He still had all time power. If Kobe and MJ weren't hitting their jumper, they could go vertical. Magic Johnson struggling from the field. He just had a size advantage. He'd back you down. SGA is not a vertical player. So if he's off and he's off center, he doesn't have power, he doesn't have speed, he doesn't have. He's not, you know, he's strong for his size. He's not a vertical player. He is a mid range maven. Like he is all time stuff. And so, you know, I've said before is he's an all time scorer, but he doesn't feel like he's in the Curry class where you're like, wow, I've never seen a human like Caitlin Clark's got some of that. You're like, I've never seen that right sga. I've seen it. Alex English, Kiki Vandaway. He's just better at it. And so I do think, you know, when you play better teams and you can get him off his game, he has a very centralized game. He's tremendous at it. But I think we'd both admit he needs a friendly whistle. And because he's so gifted, he almost always gets it. It's not like the hardened whistle which is like, that feels illegal. That's not it. It's like that feels unstoppable, is different than it feels illegal. But you know, he is. I love him. I love his maturity. He's just a smart, hardworking kid. He's impossible not to root for. I know everybody doesn't like all the flopping, but I have a hard time not rooting for guys who are more mature than their age with completely refined games where I can see the work ethic, I can see the years you've toiled in a gym that to me as a grinder, I love that kind of basketball and I think that's what he embodies.
- [14:20]
Guest 2
Yeah, I think it's fascinating because at his age being 26, he's kind of in this weird role that's reminiscent of some of the roles that you've seen, guys like Tom Brady and LeBron BN where like they're the elder statesman in the locker room. He's the elder statesman in the locker room at 26 years old. It's such a bizarre dynamic. But to, to like, for. If he was an immature player at 26, this whole thing could fall apart because of the youth in that locker room. And he just brings that, that, that veteran presence. This is a perfect time for us to get into the Microsoft bit and I'm going to kick it back to you. So welcome to Course Correction brought to you guys by Microsoft. Just like star players and teams navigating performance hurdles and business decision makers today are under immense pressure to get things right. They must rise to the occasion. Turning challenges into opportunities. Microsoft empowers these visionaries with AI solutions, simplified cloud and data management, and trustworthy, responsible AI. And when you're in the NBA, you have your own hurdles to face. In this segment, we will highlight the player every week that has risen to the occasion when his team has needed him. Whatever challenge you're facing, Microsoft empowers you with the expertise to say, bring it on. Our player of the Week this week is the 2025 NBA Finals MVP. It is now official. Shay Gilders Alexander Colin, I was thinking about a cool way to frame this segment and all I could think about is like you mentioned with the Washington Bullets roster, you know everything for me as I'm talking about all time greats is kind of played through this lens of when I started following the league closely, which for me was in the like around 2005, 2006. You've been watching a lot of NBA basketball for a really long time. You've seen a lot of stars come through the league as young players leave the league as vets. What has been like your first impression of Shea Gilgis Alexander as a playoff performer in the NBA?
- [16:16]
Colin Cowherd
That if I go back to Kareem and the Skyhook which was unstoppable, unblockable and he mastered a shot. I'd never seen a player master a shot. When I first watched Kareem, I can remember as a kid in my backyard doing it like nobody else shot the hook. Michael Jordan's mid range game. If you look at a lot of the great players beyond just scores, they are the master of their domain. Like I do what I do and they're all different looking. There was no other, there was no other Kareem. You know David Thompson was a little Michael but Michael's mid range game, he had three or four stock moves. You know Tim Duncan, the great fundamental is that a lot of the all time great players and I've said this about Mahomes can be boring. They have mastered what they do, frustratingly so. And I look at a player who knows exactly what he is but more importantly he knows what he's not and he leans into all of his skills and I think when you watch them play they can be uneven offensively. The greatest thing I can say about sga he's their clear dominant number one score. So when you play Them I don't have to pick Tony Parker, Duncan, Manu, it's like, stop him. And people can't. I mean that to me is a fastball like that. You know, you can beat them. And J dub can have 32 or Chet could have 24 or Lou Dort hits five threes. But the numbers are if he gets to the free throw line, they win. Everybody in the league knows it and they can't stop him. Like, that is precision, that is mastering a craft. And I just, I just have great respect for that.
- [18:14]
Guest 2
Yeah, the Duncan comp is super fascinating to me because Shay doesn't have some super demonstrative personality on the court. He lacks a vertical element to his game. There's nothing that like, like, as people who play a lot of basketball, like I, I've stolen little bits of footwork and, and moves from him that I think are useful moves for young players to work on. He's, he's brought his own little kind of unique flair to the two guard position. Just like Harden did, just like wa, Just like Kobe did, just like MJ did. He's got his own like, kind of unique take on it, but similar to Duncan. Even if there wasn't that, you know, overwhelming optical appeal, it's just surgically effective. And no matter what happened in this playoff run, the most reliable play type out there was give the ball to Shay at the nail and he's probably going to either draw a foul or get to a mid range jump shot that he can hit about 55% of the time. And you know, you know, Colin, it has not been a perfect NBA Finals for him. He had some rough games, but here's the thing. Just about every star struggles in their first NBA Finals. LeBron struggled in his first two NBA Finals. It, it is an impossible stage to be to, to be. I shouldn't say it's impossible. It's a very difficult stage to perform well in. And to his credit, every single moment in this series where things could have gone south. So like game two, you're down one. Oh, you lose that game, series is probably over. Game four, you're down to one. You lose that game, series is probably over. Game five, two. Two. You lose that game, series is probably over. In Game 7, series tied, if you lose that game, obviously the series is over. In every one of those games. I thought he was awesome. This is actually a hilarious stat. Colin. In the four games where I thought he played poorly, which was game one, game three, game four and game six, in those games he combined for just nine assists. Okay, just nine in those four games. In the other three games, in game two, in game five, and in game seven, he had 30, 30 assists. He averaged 10 in those three games. And if you watched those games from the start, just surgical and precise with the way he was navigating the late double teams, the help at the rim, making the kickouts to three point shooters, the roll man, whether it's Hartenstein or Chet, I thought Shea, to his credit, every time the team needed him to be great in the series, he was great. And I think that is the stereotypical Finals MVP performance. I thought he thoroughly deserved it. And most players don't even do this well in their first time around.
- [20:45]
Host
Summer is here, and you can now get almost anything you need for your sunny days delivered with Uber Eats.
- [20:52]
Colin Cowherd
Now, what do we mean by almost?
- [20:54]
Host
Well, you can't get a well groomed lawn delivered, but you can get chicken parm delivered. A day at the lake? That's a no. A Philly cheesesteak? That's a yes. A nice tan. Sorry. A box fan. Happily, yes. What about a day of sunshine? Not happening. How about a box of fine wines? Yeah, that's happening. Delivery's on its way.
- [21:13]
Colin Cowherd
Okay.
- [21:14]
Host
How about some clear skies?
- [21:15]
Colin Cowherd
Nope.
- [21:16]
Host
Well, how about some french fries? Yeah. So how about a freshly cut lawn? Can't help you there. But a barbecued prawn? Order it and it's on its way. Even throw in some paper towels. Clean up after the feast. So while you can't get fun in the sun delivered, don't worry, because you can get pork buns delivered. Uber Eats can definitely get you that. Get almost, almost anything delivered with Uber Eats. Order now. Alcohol in select markets. Product availability may vary by region. See app for details.
- [21:48]
Colin Cowherd
At the end of the season, there's only one team that can call themselves NBA champs. Only one player that can call themselves the number one pick in the NFL draft. Well, there's only electric SUV worthy of the title. The ultimate. The all electric BMW ix. What I love about the IX is that it delivers legendary BMW performance. While its sleek design exudes innovative style from the inside out. Not to mention how much space and utility it provides. Over 75 cubic feet of cargo space. The IX is completely changing the game with an all electric suv. The greatest legends of sports never compromise any part of the game. So why would you settle for anything less from your suv? After all, there's only one ultimate the BMW ix. Everything you love about the ultimate driving machine. Electrified.
- [22:35]
Advertiser 1
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- [23:35]
Host
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- [24:47]
Colin Cowherd
I don't think they're a great team. I think they could be with age. Like next year they'll play. Now watch next year. OKC won't be as dominant in the regular season. They won't be. There's no need to be. You're going to rest players. So next year they'll win by an average of 6.8, not 12.9, right? They'll try to build up, you know, they're going to try to build up their younger players, make their draft picks. They want to see guys that can play. So it'll be interesting. But next year they'll play like a champion. And so what you'll see they'll be a little less uneven to the aforementioned stats where you saw him bounce a little bit, you'll probably get a little bit less than that. But it's also something that Indiana was better defensively than people gave him credit for. They could put a lot of length on the floor and I think we are going through we've seen it now with multiple teams and I was fooled with Denver. I say it right now, the last seven champions have been very good teams. Will this be a great team? I'm fascinated to watch the Houston Rockets now, right. Like Sengoon, Amon Thompson, Kevin Durant. It's I want to give Indiana credit because the Halliburton injury did matter. But in the end, I still like Oklahoma City. I think when I look at Oklahoma City's rough edges, it's mostly Holmgren just needs another year to grow. Like one of their roughest edges is God, Holmburn did nothing tonight. Jay Williams, J Dub, Jalen Williams, he can still be uneven, he can be masterful. But I think most of the things about them are a lot of them are age specific is young players in big games, especially on the road aren't as good. And I just so I look at them and I think, oh, they have a chance to be really good next year, play as a more confident team. And I think by the way, their coaching staff will grow. Everybody will just get better. But most of my criticisms of okcr, you just didn't know game to game what you got with Chet Holmgren on the offensive end when he played well in the second half, it's like, wow, that's a really hard team to beat.
- [27:06]
Guest 2
Yeah, this is a super interesting concept. I want to get a little deeper into this. I do need we're going to wrap up Microsoft real quick. That's it for this week's course correction. Remember, Microsoft's AI solutions empower you to take bold steps and make informed decisions, sparking new ideas to help drive your business forward. With Microsoft as your trusted partner, you can navigate your journey with confidence, finding innovative solutions and reaching new possibilities. Visit Microsoft.com challengers to learn more. So Colin, to your point, I saw this stat before the game, Oklahoma City's net rating and remember Net rating is just how much you outscore your opponent Just waited for pace per 100 possessions, Oklahoma City's net rating at home coming into tonight was 21. They outscored teams by 21 points per 100 possessions on the road, negative six. And so to your point, I actually agree with you. I thought Oklahoma City kind of underachieved in this playoff run. They should have put Denver away sooner. They should have put Indiana away sooner. They were not, to me a great offensive team for the majority of this playoff run in downright ugly at various points. But as we look back through NBA history, this is what I look at the warriors as a corollary here. It's not just stars that tend to struggle when they get to the finals the first time teams do. The Celtics in 2022, they really struggled when they showed up in 2024. They looked like a bunch of grownups. They handled it way better. Golden State. Steph played so poorly in 2015, I think he still deserved Finals MVP, but he played so poorly in 2015 he didn't get a single vote for Finals MVP. They were looking at his teammate as somebody to give the vote to. They, you know, at various points in that playoff run looked a little shaky. They trailed 2:1 to Memphis. They trailed 2:1 to Cleveland. It is very typical for a team that dominates in the regular season but has truly pressure filled serious playoff run to be a little bumpy. And so the point is, is like, yeah, I this year they were a mediocre playoff offense that had an elite playoff defense which was enough to get them over the top. But this team has by far the most room for internal improvement year over year, I'd argue in the entire NBA. Like J Dub, you talked about the oscillations. The oscillations are classic young player stuff. I can't tell you how many times anybody who spends any time coaching young basketball players, you'll see them do something that works and you'll be like, nice job. And then they'll go on the next possession and they'll do something completely different. You're like, just do the same thing. Do the same thing that you just did and it works. And then when they ha. When they make mistakes, they can repeat them. They struggle to cut out mistakes and they struggle, struggle to repeat their successes. Young players over time. You don't think Shay remembers how he played in those three bad. In those four bad games. He knows, he knows. He learned lessons in that, in that process. And Shay will be better. Shay will just be more consistent. I believe J Dub can get substantially better. Chad was A nightmare offensively in this postseason run. Nightmare. And this is a guy who spends summers working out with Kevin Durant who has like all, he has all NBA offensive potential. And so maybe they're not that team yet, but they absolutely can get there. And all you have to do in this era where nobody's winning multiple championships is win multiple championships. And pretty quickly you will like establish yourself as one of the all time great teams. I'm with you. They were, this was a rocky road, but they got it done. If you were going to beat the Thunder, this was the year. This was the year where they're young, they're thin. Chet has never been in these big moments before. Like this was the year to beat them and nobody could get it done. And it's only going to go up from here.
- [30:45]
Colin Cowherd
Yeah, but I do, I think Houston now has to be considered very interesting. I contend Dallas, when everybody's healthy, now I don't know exactly where Kyrie is going to be. I love their size and length. I also think, you know, the NBA, especially out west, has some really good GMs. There's a lot of levers to pull here. And even though, and I've told you, I think draft picks are going to matter more, like everybody's banging on the Suns today. What if that number 10 pick ends up being a really, really good player and they have all these second round picks and they can figure out a way to move one of the other players and get another first round pick. And I, I think Oklahoma City is going to be very good for a very long time. But I still think, and we've seen it this year, these long playoff runs. You see it with pitching staffs and you see it with teams. You keep going to seven games against western teams and in the finals, I don't like it. I think you're going to have more injuries. I don't remember a two year stretch where we had more key injuries to star players. So, you know, it's one of those things. They've got a lot of depth, but they do have one dependable score. So keeping SGA healthy and trying to develop second, third and fourth scores is a real thing because they're inconsistent there. But it is. You know, as I look at this playoff series, one of my takeaways is, and I've been on this for years, you do not need seven games in the first round. Like, and you say, well, it could be a sweep. You do not need four game sweeps. You could do it in three, you could do it in five. Games or three games. So I think OKC is not good enough to be brittle. Injury riddled. I think healthy. You know, we always say that in the NFL. It's attrition some of these playoffs. Cleveland fell apart the year before. New York fell apart. And I think that's a lot of it. I think the west is going to be razor thin. Keep. You know, we all know San Antonio's going to take a jump. So I think a lot of it is if we're going to keep doing seven game series. Well, a lot of it is who's healthy. Because a lot of guys went to the floor this year.
- [33:10]
Guest 2
And OKC super Albert and. Yeah, and OKC super young. And they just held up. They kind of physically wore everybody down over the course of this playoff run because they just have this deep rotation of young players.
- [33:21]
Colin Cowherd
That's right.
- [33:22]
Guest 2
I agree. I agree with you. For the record, I want to be clear, like, I do not think this Oklahoma City team is the KD Steph Warriors. Like, that team felt borderline unbeatable when they were healthy. Like, I don't think this Oklahoma City team is unbeatable. I just think we haven't seen their ceiling yet. I think there's a level they can get to, especially in the offensive end of the floor that we haven't seen yet. And I'm curious to see where that ends up is, does that end up being a team that's just like all the other champions recently, they can't repeat, or does it end up being a team that ends up making a mark on this era? But the injuries thing is fascinating. So we have shout out to Josh who gave us the stat before the show. The, the Tyrese Halliburton Achilles terror, if that confirms to be what it is, which is what it looked like. I mean, ABC made us watch it 30 times. I have no idea what that was all about, but that would be the eighth Achilles terror in the NBA this year. The previous season high was five. What do you make of this uptick in these weird severe injuries in the NBA?
- [34:19]
Colin Cowherd
The pace is faster, the players are better. You know, it's a more physical postseason. It's just more taxing on the bodies. And these athletes now come into the season in shape. You're just asking a lot. It means, you know, like, we can criticize Jamal Murray of Denver sort of playing himself into shape and Luka, but I think there are very few LeBrons out there where the body just holds up. And I think, I think, guys, I think the level of play the level of pace, the level of physicality. These guys are more like tightly tuned violins. And it just doesn't take much. And so I don't, I just do listen. College basketball doesn't have near the quality of talent of the NBA. But why are their ratings often beating NBA playoff games? Because of the urgency. And we all know baseball, you have to have a longer series because such a big component of baseball is starting pitching. So you know you're setting up your pitching. That's part of the chess match of baseball. But I don't think in basketball I need a seven game series. Michael Jordan's big years, it was a five gamer until you get to later rounds. And I just think, I think Adam Silver and I'll give Rob Manfred and Roger Goodell credit. I think our commissioners see this. They're very open minded. Manfred's made multiple big swings which goes against baseball's history. Basketball's been, you know, a much more progressive, willing to experiment league. Sometimes you know the new ball. David Stern didn't even give the players a heads up. But the Adam Silver has made, you know, the in season tournament. I think you have to really examine and when I had him on, we talked about this is that embrace college basketball. You know how in, you know what Indy Oklahoma City is. To me we're all the G league guys. It's a lot of guys who played a lot of years of college. Embrace college basketball as an almost educational basketball tool. Not the school part. Just be with Tom Izzo for two or three years like it matters. And also you have to really examine the value of these players. If you're signing a $76 billion contract for 11 years, you want your stars playing as long as they can. Halliburton's injury made me sick to my stomach. The game didn't feel the same after that injury. I was so fired up all day. I got home early. I watched two hours of the pregame show. I was sick to my stomach. I'm like, like wow. And, and again I, I just think you can. Money's not the problem. We got 76 billion coming. Like money's not the issue. The owners are all billionaires. Let's protect the players. There's no reason for seven game series in the first two rounds.
- [37:03]
Guest 2
The data is becoming undeniable. And it, it keeps. The thing is Colin too, it keeps happening on the same play. The same like what they call it the negative step. Where you like step backwards to try to launch yourself forwards. Essentially the body is fatiguing to the Point that when they're trying to explode forward at these points, the body's failing and it's happening at an increasingly high rate. And it, it, I, I think it has a lot to do with just the way the game has changed in the sense that the point at which players are engaging defenders, the point at which players are being asked to contend with physicalities extended substantially further away from the basket, you're facing ball pressure and being guarded 30, 35ft from the basket some of these times. I bet if you tracked a player's movement and just how often he runs around the floor, just the, the straight line distance that he runs, it's probably double what it was in the 90s in a single game, just because of the pace, the amount of ball and player movement that occurs on every single possession. It's just a lot. And so to your point, like, I understand the TV aspect and it's like, okay, we got, we get money from these games. We can't cut games because it costs us money. If anything, we're trying to add games. Here's the in season tournament. Here's the play in tournament. You know, they added that seventh game to the first round after it used to be five. Like, they are adding inventory that the players can't handle. And if you really dig into it and you actually start to look at the way it affects the product. I'm so glad you mentioned that, Colin. This was the most excited I've been for a game in so long. And what a buzzkill to watch the best player on the other team come out, hit three straight three, start talking a bunch of shit to the crowd.
- [38:40]
Colin Cowherd
Yeah.
- [38:41]
Guest 2
Next thing you know, he's on the, in a heap on the ground. It's a huge bummer. And like, these guys can't be asked to play back to backs. These guys can't be asked to play an additional two. It is June 22nd. Colin, you know how this playoff run has been going on forever. Like, it is a long stretch. They have to find a way to make this actually achievable for these bodies they are not holding up in. My theory is that if you tweak it in a way to where guys can hold up, it'll improve the ratings just by virtue of everyone being present and bringing the urgency due to the lower inventory.
- [39:16]
Colin Cowherd
Oh, it's just like baseball ratings. When you shorten the game, create urgency. Everybody's. I mean, I've done this ad nauseam. Everybody's on their phones. People are, I'm watching the game tonight. And I'm literally in the first quarter. You know, I'm sitting there watching the game, and I'm writing some notes, but I'm also reading an article on the finals. As I'm watching the finals, we're all distracted. So, you know, I just. I think the reality is you just. Anytime you can make a game feel like an event, everybody wins. The players win. I win, you win, the networks win. So it'll be interesting now because the NBA is going to be on so many networks, and it's going to dilute some of the coverage, but you're going to have to make it special. And by the way, this is what baseball did. Fox went to baseball and said, you guys have to create the Home Run Derby as your highest rated non World Series moment. Create more things like that. So they did the Cornfield game. They put the Mets and the Phillies, you know, overseas, and I watched all of them. So I do think there's a certain apathy in the regular season. I mean, even the league officiates different in the postseason. They understand the urgency. So I think they'll get it right. I think Adam will eventually get it right. He's not a stubborn guy. I don't think any of our commissioners are. And I think going from seven games to five games, you may not think it's a big deal, but I. Over the course, it could be four less. Four fewer playoff games. You know, I feel like Halliburton's body just gave out tonight. It just. It was exhausted. He just pushed it and pushed it and pushed it, and it just gave out.
- [40:55]
Guest 2
Oh, I think that's. I think that's exactly what happened. Again, it's becoming undeniable. Like, there was a point where it was like, oh, injuries are on the rise, but, hey, it's only been, like two or three years. It's. It might be just anecdotal or too small of a sample size. We're on an extended stretch here where, like, dudes are breaking down every year in the playoffs. Remember last year, it was like, oh, the Cavs are going Donovan Mitchell's foot. And now we're, you know, that, oh, like, here come the Pacers. And then Tyrese Halliburton gets. It's like. It's. It's this. Like, it's basically turning into a war of attrition more than it's turning into a battle of basketball. And that's what they have to figure out, because otherwise, what you're going to see is the deepest, youngest team win every year. I mean, and that's more or less what we saw in the finals. You know, on so many different levels.
- [41:38]
Host
Summer is here. And you can now get almost anything you need for your sunny days delivered with Uber Eats.
- [41:45]
Colin Cowherd
Now, what do we mean by almost?
- [41:46]
Host
Well, you can't get a well groomed lawn delivered, but you can get chicken parm delivered. A day at the lake. That's a no. A Philly cheesesteak? That's a yes. A nice tan. Sorry. A box fan. Happily, yes. What about a day of sunshine? Not happening. How about a box of fine wines? Yeah, that's happening. Delivery's on its way.
- [42:06]
Colin Cowherd
Okay.
- [42:06]
Host
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- [42:41]
Colin Cowherd
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- [44:27]
Host
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- [44:29]
Colin Cowherd
And when you drop in, your squad.
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- [45:36]
Guest 2
Anyway call we did get a new piece of news this morning. Kevin Durant is now Houston Rocket and in return the Phoenix Suns are getting Jalen Green, a young player with tons of potential but maddening downsides at this point. Dylan Brooks who I actually think is a very good role player in the NBA. Yeah he is the 10th pick in this upcoming draft and five second round picks. What was like your first impression when you heard the news?
- [46:04]
Colin Cowherd
Well my first impression The Suns were 3 and 17 when Katie didn't play this year they stunk. It wasn't him. He still get a bucket. If he's a leader in Houston it doesn't work. If you need a bucket in Houston, it works. And I think today you have to look at the Rockets. My take is he's going to give you about 65 games in the regular season. If we get two healthy years then everybody's going to watch Houston vie for the NBA championship and feel like they dominated the trade. However, a very good draft. So Phoenix gets the number 210 pick. Well, many people are theorizing there are 12 players in this draft, the top 12 players who are all star potential. So if they stay at 10 or move up to 6 or 8 they're getting a potentially really good player, probably with more than one year in college. And again, I don't think anybody will ever unlock Jalen Green. Like, I think he's the classic, doesn't have a defined game, never, probably will. But we can't deny that he can drop 30 in any given moment, that he's wildly talented. I don't like his game, but I'm not going to deny that he's, you know, long, twitchy, fast, very good transition player. He's just. And there are a lot of these guys in the NBA, you know, they come in and they're talented and maybe either they don't work on their game or they don't get the right coaching or they just, they probably have so much talent from sixth grade on that they never really. There's no catalyst for them to like really burrow down on a specialized. You know, not everybody is as driven as mj, right? Like I'm reading the Caitlin Clark book. I mean, that girl's. She is mj, she's obsessed. And it's just like, not everybody's like that. Some people are just talented and so. But between Amen Thompson and Shangoon, it's a beautiful touch. Kevin Durant and a series of four or five very good young players. And I think Adoka is a very good coach. That's a real team. But I think it's easy to look at Phoenix and just go, well, they got Green's productive. Dylan Brooks is a very good small forward defender, can give you 17 a night. You got the number 10 pick, you got a bunch of second round picks, which you can turn those into things. Phoenix wanted a little bit of a reboot. They got it. But people on the Internet are like, oh, Houston dominated. If Katie got hurt in game 36, it wouldn't feel like Houston dominated.
- [48:34]
Guest 2
Right?
- [48:34]
Colin Cowherd
They're not bringing him there to be a foundational piece. They're bringing him in to get a bucket. Like, he will not be the leader of Shen Goon will still be the, I think, the centerpiece of the team. Amen. Thompson will be your best athlete and your defensive stopper. He's going to be a bucket guy. So that's why I think it works. He's still one of the top 23, 26 best players in the league, I would argue. I mean, I was on the plane when I was flying in today, I started writing down numbers and I got to like 21. I'm like, he's in that space. And again, Phoenix was terrible when he didn't play. So that's my long winded answer. I think Houston will look like they won the trade, but Phoenix got assets too.
- [49:22]
Guest 2
I think that what happened in Phoenix is a sign that like yeah, kd, Steph lebron, these guys, they're not floor raisers anymore. At their age, they're not going to turn a bad roster into a 50 win team the way that 27 year old Nikola Jokic could like that. That goes without saying. I don't. I do think though that KD has been dramatically underrated because he's been on such a poor roster. Yes, I put this together for you Colin. This is three stats to show that Kevin Durant is still one of the very best players in the NBA. He was the best jump shooter in the world this year among 58 players in the NBA to take at least 500 jump shots. KD was the only player in the league to make over half of them and he in second place was Shea who made 45%. And if you waited it for threes, his 1.22 points per shot was still number one in the NBA. Number two, he was the only player in the NBA last year to make at least 200 pull up jump shots, meaning off the dribble while making more than half of them. And three, he was far and away the best isolation player in the world. Last year out of the 10 players ran at least 250 ISOs. His 1.16 points per possession, including passes, ranked number one in the league, a full six points per 100 possessions ahead of Shea, who is in second place. I think he is. When it comes to refined offensive skill, he is still one of the very best players. I would put him in that 6 to 15 range depending on and we haven't seen him play enough high leverage basketball lately to see where he really lands in there, but I think he's still in that range. And if you asked me what the Rockets issue was, this is a deep team with a load of big physical athletes. If you asked me what their one week weakness was, it's refined offensive skill and that's what KD comes into address. We were just talking about this with Desmond Bain in the Orlando Magic the other day. Yeah, when you take a bunch of big athletes that kind of struggle with spacing and you bring in a guy who like just run him off a screen and he's automatically going to pull two defenders out 30ft from the basketball unlocks a world of possibilities on the short roll. Amend Thompson will be an amazing short role player. You Know that thing that Draymond Green did for Steph where Steph would come off of Draymond and take two players and then Draymond would go right down the middle of the floor and make the play that broke the defense down. That is a thing that Amend Thompson has been unable to do in Houston because they just don't generate many of those opportunities because none of their shooters are good enough. KD will unlock that part of Amend Thompson's game. It is not a perfect roster. I was writing down all the names on the roster today. They're a little light on ball handling, but that sort of thing they can get. You know what's so funny, Colin? I remember when they the sun signed Tyus Jones last summer, I was like, why? You already have this redundancy of all these dudes who can dribble and you're just not athletic enough and you're not good enough on defense. Like, you need athletes and dudes that can like, like beat up people in these physical environments. You know, who could really use Tyus Jones. Houston, like, I think they should call. I think Kevin Durant should call up. Ty is tomorrow and be like, hey, dude, come with me.
- [52:15]
Colin Cowherd
Yeah, I think. I think Phoenix. I wish Phoenix would have gotten actually a size. I think Phoenix needs size and I think Houston needs a ball handler. And our takeaway, when we watch Golden State beat Houston, we were like, God, they're so bad at the half court offense. If you stop Shen Goon, it's over. Right? Like, it's just. And so you and I talked about this. He was a perfect fit there. I thought he worked in New York because of Jalen Brunson's, you know, has the ball a lot in his hand. I thought he would work with that offense, whereas Kat can kind of. I always felt like Kat and Brunson were playing, you know, your turn, my turn, your turn, my turn. KD is kind of like, I'll sit in the. I did it with Russ Westbrook. I'll sit in the corner. Get it to me eventually. So I think he fits really, really well. And I think they have the coach. I think, again, it's so hard to judge Houston because so much of their roster is young. I like, feel like everybody's in the fourth inning. Like, I mean, amen. Thompson could take a big leap. I mean, Sengun's the only one where I look at him and I think, oh, that again. I use this word a lot. But that's a defined and refined offensive game. He's got European Touch like he has a game. A lot of their players, I feel like they're just in early innings. I don't know what they are, so. Amen. Thompson's obviously defensively defined. He's so strong and athletic and aggressive. But a KD gives them refinement. This is a second offensive player. I know exactly what I'm getting. And that goes back to a little Oklahoma City. One of the reasons Indiana gave OKC problems. Siakam has an offensive half court game. Halliburton does. T.J. mcConnell does like, that's three guy. Even Obi Toppin, when he hits threes, you're like, he's athletic and hit threes. They had guys that they, Rick Carlisle knew, okay, this is what this player does with Houston. Houston's like a younger okc. I'm just not what everybody is like. I just need more guys that I go into a game and go, yeah, I'm going to get 24 tonight from KD and I can drop two or three plays for him. So Houston to me is early innings. They could end up being. They could end up looking. If you told me next year a team explodes in the west and ends up winning by 7.8 points, I would guess Houston because they have so many players that are just going to springboard to another level here in the next 50 to 100 basketball games.
- [54:36]
Guest 2
No, I totally agree. I think they have massive upside. I think they could very easily be the second best team in the west and the biggest threat to the Thunder next year. I think that's absolutely on the table. They match up well with okc too, because they have all the big physical size. The ball handling will be the weakness. As we saw with Indiana, even Oklahoma City struggled because of their lack of depth in ball handling against Indiana's ball pressure. But the, the youth, the, the, the thing that you're talking about in terms of the wide range of outcomes is super interesting because as I was breaking down their depth chart today, I'm looking at it and I'm like, okay, Fred Van Vliet, legit point guard, you know, Shangoon Center. KD's your four. Amen. Thompson, I think, defensively functions as either a two or a three. So, yeah, that, that could be either. But then it's like, Jabari Smith Jr. Is kind of a four. He plays basically the same position as Katie. I don't think he moves his feet well enough to be a three. Cam Whitmore could be one of those guys. Reed shepherd could be one of those guys. But, like, who Knows. And, and here's the other thing too. Colin Houston still gave up one first round draft pick in this deal. They still have a boatload of first round draft picks at their disposal. So they're high, they're like a high likelihood for like we bring this team into camp, we watch them for 20 games and we go, oh, here are the two things we're missing.
- [55:47]
Colin Cowherd
Exactly right.
- [55:48]
Guest 2
Let's go get what we need to get. Like they are, they are extremely well equipped heading into this next season.
- [55:53]
Colin Cowherd
That's where Houston won the trade. They didn't have to give up another first round pick. That, that's where they won the trade. It's not just KD because my guess is because of their DEP, they won't play KD more than like 60 to 65 games. They want him for the postseason. There's no reason to play him 75, 80 games. Because they also know if you're in the West, Jason, you know you're going to be in long series. So there's no, you know, you're going to be in six game series in the West. It's not like the east where you kind of feel like if Halliburton comes back next year, they're just certain you're going to win a lot of series really quickly. You're going to have long series in the West. No reason to have, you know, I want KD going into the playoffs, you know, off about a two games and nine day stretch, healthy and ready to go. And I think you have to think about that as a GM with an older player. In the west, if you have a Steph or a kd, all these series are long series.
- [56:47]
Guest 2
If they get a couple more ball handlers, like that's the thing, like if they get a Ty Jones, if they get, you know, one other guy of that ilk, then they will be able to rest Katie, not just for the regular season, but even in the postseason. Like, like we saw Houston give themselves a really good chance to win games even without high level offensive skill because they just go, here's Tari Eason and Amen Thompson and we're picking up full court and you're turning the ball over now and it's a mess. Like they are able, like they are able to prevent the redundancy that Phoenix had where you have a bunch of guys who do the same thing on Houston. What KD does is so specialized for them that they kind of have an identity separate, separate from him. So they will be able to win games without him. They will be able to carry the load so that he can come in and lift them over the top. I think it's a. I think it's a fantastic on paper basketball fit. It'll be ugly sometimes. Katie's gonna have some nights where maybe the statistical performance isn't there because it's ugly. They can't space the floor as well for him, but they will in turn do the same thing to the other team. So what to buy Kevin that margin for error before we get out of here tonight. Colin, I did, I did want to run this by you because I've seen a lot of victory lapping criticism. You know, let's just say the Phoenix Suns have been the butt of the joke today because they took Mikhail Bridges and Cam Johnson and Chris Paul and they turned them into basically Bradley Beal and Dylan Brooks and Jalen Green and one first round pick. I get that it looks bad. Here is where. This is where my brain went this morning. They. They made it to the finals. A year where because of COVID everyone was hurt. And we had a Trey Young Hawks team in the conference finals, a Paul George Clippers team with an injured Kawhi in the conference finals and that Sun's team. And by the way, they ran into Giannis and Giannis beat them them four straight times for the title. So they weren't good enough. Then the next year they kind of have a great regular season and Luca, like embarrasses them, like embarrasses them for the world to see in the second round. They weren't good enough. So they made an aggressive trade. They went and got Kevin Durant. Every one of us would have done the same thing at that point in time. It was Kevin Durant and we had just seen him be so amazing for Brooklyn in those couple of previous playoff runs. Ones, even the Chris Paul thing. Now, I would argue they should have used Chris Paul's salary as a vehicle with which to bring in more size and athleticism. But like, you're like Chris Paul for Bradley Beal. Like, I mean, come on, right? You could talk yourself into it again. It wasn't perfect. There were mistakes. There are certain things I would have done differently. But now we're on the other side of this and it's like self awareness. We're not good enough. We just missed the playoffs in the Western Conference. Like, Katie misses a few games and we completely fall apart. Like, I understand it looks bad when you zoom out, but to me, what happened to Phoenix is just what happens when you get aggressive and it doesn't work. The truth of the matter is, is there's risk.
- [59:53]
Colin Cowherd
Well, yeah, the Bradley Beal deal, and I can't criticize it because for years, I mean, I must have been on the air for five years saying, I really like Bradley Beal. He's playing with John Wall. You're never going to flourish with John Wall. You got to get into, you know, a more mature group of veteran players. And then it's just like over the course of a year or two, he got really old really fast and really banged up and he just withered down. So I was a Bradley Beal fan for years. I didn't understand why he was so loyal to Washington, which was poorly run and poorly owned. So I can't criticize him. And I always tend to be a big fan of being aggressive. I like what Orlando just did to get banged. So, yeah, I can't bang on him again. If they hit on the number 10 pick, they've got enough second round picks. They got enough pieces to. I think you just have to take more big swings. I think with Bradley Beal, I wonder if you just don't buy out the contract. Like, I mean, that's how bad of a deal it was. So, you know, I think if they were in the east, you'd, you'd have a better vibe or more optimism. I just think, I look at San Antonio and I look, I still think Denver's going to be really good. Oh yeah, I think they just, you know, I just look at the west, the better GMs, better rosters, deeper teams. I mean, God, we've almost forgotten about what they're building in San Antonio. Holy crap, do they have a lot of talent? They're in the second inning. So I just think Phoenix, relative to the conference, you know, they just feel like a have not and they probably are. But I mean, I know Matt Ishbia and Justin Ishbia. I know Justin. Actually I met him when I moved to Chicago. He's part of the White Sox, I think, ownership group now. Now. And Matt got really aggressive. And I think one of the things I've learned over the course of my life, Jason, I made a lot of mistakes, but it's hard to master two things. Like Michael Jordan tried baseball. Right. Randy Moss tried basketball. It's really hard. And I think sometimes when aggressive owners come in and they think, hey, because the Suns don't have the biggest scouting department and the owner comes in and thinks, I want stars, what you're really saying is I'm moving into a completely different World. And I'm smarter than Sam Presti, right? Like, even Sam Presti, the James Harden deal early, he didn't get enough. I mean, I look at GMs in football and basketball, who I like, and they make big mistakes. Shabazz Napier, the draft pick for Pat Riley in the Heat, like, great people make mistakes. Nobody on the Internet, you know, the trolls don't want to ever admit it, but I think they came in and the owner was a little hot and a little aggressive. And this is a hard sport to master. Even the best people just, you know, you're drafting 19 and 20 year olds and I think, you know, I'm not going to bang on the Suns because when they made the moves, I was like, I kind of like it. And then a year later, I'm like, man, was I wrong. So I, I can't be. I can't stand on any pious mountain today because I like their moves. I thought Bradley be Bradley. Beal's been a disaster. There's nothing else you can say. It's just been a disaster.
- [63:18]
Guest 2
Yeah, it didn't work. And that happens sometimes. Like, I mean, like, the most recent example I can think of is the Raptors. Like, I remember when the Raptors traded for Kawhi. We were. Everyone was like, why would you do that? He's going to go to Los Angeles. He's telling everybody he's going to Los Angeles. Is. His family's out there. He wants to be out there. That's where he's going. This is a rental. And it was, by the way, if you, if you like, remove the championship from the equation. It's like he went there and then he left and he went to la and the Raptors tanked. Like, the Raptors fell apart after that. Like, that's what happened. But they won the title. But even if you zoom in on the series, it's like three, three in Philly. And Kawhi hits like a leaning jump shot while falling out of bounds that hits every part of the rim and then falls in. Like, that was the gap. That was the gap between the gamble being a success and being a failure. And so ultimately, I feel like we're just playing the results when we say that. And like, yeah, you know, I look at it, it's like you, you, you draft. You traded for KD. There was one team who gave the 2023 Nuggets trouble. One team, the Phoenix Suns. That. The Phoenix Suns were the team that pushed them to two. Two in the series. And it looked like everything was hanging in the balance. And so like, for whatever it's worth, worth it wasn't enough. But yeah, my take was less. Like, look at the Suns. They butchered everything. And like, they acknowledged to themselves that they weren't good enough to win the title. They made an aggressive move for one of the 12 greatest players of all time when he was still playing really well and it didn't work out, you know, and that's just how it goes sometimes. But Colin, it was great to see you today. Thanks so much for coming on the show. This has been a really fun season. Shout out to the NBA for giving us our first good NBA final in a very long time.
- [64:52]
Colin Cowherd
Our best domestic draft coming up in forever. This is a, a great domestic draft. So that's, that's, we've talked about this. I think with nil, I think you're going to have more players staying in college. The drafts are going to get more domestic. We're also poaching the best European players with the nil money. I think draft picks over the next 10 years are going to fortify teams much more quickly than they have for the previous 20 where it's 18 year olds who are just not ready to play. So I. This will be a really fun draft to watch. There's some really special players.
- [65:30]
Guest 2
Yeah, I'm super excited. The extended NBA finals have put us right up against it, guys. I have Sam Vicini coming on the show tomorrow. He does an incredible draft guide. We'll be doing a full NBA draft preview. The. The actual draft is on Wednesday. It's literally right around the corner. So everything's right here. Colin is great to see. Thanks so much for giving us your time. For all of you guys who are on the YouTube stream, we're headed over to Playback to take some callers. So that's Playback TV hoops tonight. I'll see you guys there. Everyone else, thanks so much for supporting us this season. It's been an incredible, successful season. I can't say enough about the way you guys have supported us in the show over the course of this year. And we will see you guys tomorrow morning.
- [66:04]
Colin Cowherd
Thanks, bud. The volume.
- [66:10]
Host
Summer is here and you can now get almost anything you need for your sunny days delivered with Uber Eats.
- [66:17]
Colin Cowherd
Now what do we mean by almost?
- [66:19]
Host
Well, you can't get a well groomed lawn delivered delivered. But you can get chicken parm delivered. A nice tan. Sorry. A box fan. Happily, yes. A day of sunshine. No. A box of fine wines. Yes. Uber Eats can definitely get you that. Get almost, almost anything delivered with Uber eats. Order now. Alcohol in select markets. Product availability may vary by region. See app for details.
- [66:49]
Colin Cowherd
Okay, have you heard about this? Last year, Degree changed the formula for their Cool Rush deodorant and their fans rebelled and wanted the old scent back. And Degree listened. That doesn't happen often, they admitted. They effed up and they're bringing back the original Cool Rush scent. They're bringing it back and it's exactly how you remember it. Cool, crisp and fresh. There's a reason it's the number one men's antiperspirant and it's back in Walmart, Target and other stores now for under four bucks. So try and see what the fuss is about. Head to your local Walmart or Target to try the OG degree cool rush.
- [67:20]
Advertiser 2
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- [68:21]
Advertiser 3
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- [68:50]
Colin Cowherd
This is an I Heart podcast.