← The Herd with Colin Cowherd
The Herd with Colin Cowherd
Colin Cowherd Podcast - UConn vs. Duke MADNESS, Final Four Is Set, Top 5 NBA Prospects, Big Ten Resurgence
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- [00:00]
Sponsor Announcer
This is an iHeart podcast.
- [00:02]
Colin Cowherd
Guaranteed Human today's podcast brought to you by Ferguson Home where it all comes together. Whether you're a homeowner creating your dream space or a pro managing multiple projects, Ferguson Home is where you'll find top products by brands like LG. Visit your local showroom or visit FergusonHome.com
- [00:22]
Sponsor Announcer
support for the show comes from Public, the investing platform for those who take it seriously. On Public, you can build a multi asset portfolio of stocks, bonds, options, crypto and now generated assets which allow you to turn any idea into an investable index with AI. It all starts with your prompt. From renewable energy companies with high free cash flow to semiconductor suppliers growing revenue over 20% year over year, you can literally type any prompt and put the AI to work. It screens thousands of stocks, builds a one of a kind index and lets you back test it against the S&P 500. Then you can invest in a few clicks. Generated assets are like ETFs with infinite possibilities, completely customizable and based on your thesis, not someone else's. Go to public.com podcast and earn an uncapped 1% bonus when you transfer your portfolio. That's public.com podcast paid for by Public Investing Brokerage Services by Open to the Public Investing Inc. Member FINRA and SIPC Advisory Services by Public Advisors, llc, SEC Registered Advisor Generated Assets is an interactive analysis tool. Output is for informational purposes only and is not an investment recommendation or advice. Complete Disclosures available at public.comDisclosures lost support
- [01:23]
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- [02:23]
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- [02:50]
Doug Gottlieb
Lenovo the volume.
- [02:57]
Colin Cowherd
Today's show is brought to you by our presenting sponsor, American Beverage. If you think about some of the most iconic drinks in the country, the ones you grab at a barbecue, the ones you raise to celebrate your team, that have been part of your story for decades, Coke, Dr. Pepper, Pepsi, there's something people don't always think about. The companies behind those brands are still making their drinks right here in the US While there's a lot of talk about bringing manufacturing back, America's beverage companies never left. They're American companies making American products with American workers in America's hometown. So 275,000 men and women across all 50 states. Real jobs, good paying jobs, the kind of jobs you can raise a family on. So more than 100 years, those brands have been part of everyday lives and they're still here, still investing, still operating in communities around the country. So if you care about strong local communities, economies and companies that walk the walk, check out the good work and what they're doing @weDeliver for America.org all right. Well, it's March and it's madness. There weren't a ton of upsets in the tournament. I guess Iowa over Florida is the big one. So I got, you know, I, Michigan and Arizona are the two best teams I've seen. And I thought, I'm going to call Doug Gottlieb coaching now the Green Bay Phoenix. Second year, they finished third in the Horizon League. His first year, his top scores all got hurt. Second year, he builds it back up and they were very viable to the very end. And I've been keeping in contact with Doug and his basketball journey and I thought, let's get him on here and talk about a lot of different stuff. I told Doug today, I said, hey, this Yukon Duke game, it's getting lopsided. If you want to, if you want to record this early, he's like, hold on, it's Dan Hurley. Let's hold on. And he was right. So it's good seeing you. We've talked several times. You know, Doug, it's funny about UConn. I mean, we both lived there for a long time. It's really, they're like a pitcher who gets better in the later innings. Like they're so good in the second half. They just wear you down. They're so physical. The boozer kids had a couple of bad turnovers. It's just like they're kind of built for March. The refs let you play a little bit like the NBA playoffs. The games get physical. Were you shocked they came back to be Duke?
- [05:13]
Doug Gottlieb
Yes. Yeah. From, from this perspective, you know, again, like, you watch it, I've always watched it a little bit differently. Right. In my analyst days. Now as a coach, you watch it completely differently. And I was so impressed by Duke's preparedness for all of what UConn does. You know, UConn's post double, they just sliced it and diced it for the first, I don't know, two thirds of the game. And then UConn, they don't really, they don't really have, they have a half court offense, but they run a lot of sets and pre planned stuff. And when you have one day to prep, you can't really, you can't prep for everything somebody does, you know, so.
- [05:52]
Colin Cowherd
Right.
- [05:52]
Doug Gottlieb
So you got it. You have to, you have to have had kind of the fundamental core. This is what we do. When this type of set, when this type of offense, if it's a zoom, you know, if it's an away action, if it's a ball screen, whatever, again, like I want, I'm, I'm watching this game going, man, how does Duke know everything that UConn's doing? And they're using it against them empty side ball screens, easy dunk, layup. And then something just changed, you know, where they started to get stops, they got a couple run throughs, they hit a couple shots. You know, Mullins hit the big three obviously to win it, but he missed one right before the TV timeout with like 12 and change. And I was like, ah, they're not going to get over that hump, you know, because they had other opportunities to get, get it back to where all of a sudden you get some clenching from, from Duke. So I just, again, that's, it's an incredible staff and Danny's. There's no perfect coach, there's no perfect people. But the one thing Danny is, he's a fighter. And you know, his whole sideline demeanor, which everybody talks about, it's all directed at the officials and the crowd. It's not directed at players. Yeah, now look, I can't get away with it. You know, I got a tea this year. I didn't say anything like it was crazy, but he, he pushes that. But what it does is he fights for his players to the very last moment. And the players are. The players play above their level of toughness, if that makes any sense. Like, he's got. He's got tough kids, but they play even tougher because they got that maniac there on the sideline. I think that's all part of why it works.
- [07:32]
Colin Cowherd
Yeah. Yeah. I mean, for a while it was Terrace Reed against Duke. I mean, seriously, the. He was the offense. And it was. It was funny because I kept thinking, oh, man, they just need a Stefan Castle. They just.
- [07:44]
Doug Gottlieb
They don't have that. That's what this team is missing.
- [07:48]
Colin Cowherd
They weren't.
- [07:48]
Doug Gottlieb
They don't have a. Throw it to the dude, he's going to go get you a bucket guy. That would they have.
- [07:52]
Colin Cowherd
Yeah, you know, they were 30th in the country. I mean, I've watched them get blown out by Marquette. I mean, they just have nights when they can't hit shots. But there is a toughness to UConn. I mean, I've just always liked the program. And what's interesting, you go from Calhoun, who, like Hurley just preached toughness, Just. Just grind. And it took them a while. They had Kevin Ollie, they had coaches, and then they find Hurley. Hurley's a little bit of an extension of Calhoun, where he's just really. They kind of found their secret sauce. It's not the sexiest program, but they always have length, they always have toughness. They play defense. You know, it's interesting. And Michigan, Arizona looks like the marquee game. But, you know, be careful because UConn and Illinois are great in your world. It's fascinating about this. So Illinois has a player that was the 261st ranked player in high school. I mean, literally small town public high school guy, the Keaton Wagler kid. And he shows up, he may be a lottery pick. And what's fascinating about college basketball is that. And you're in this world now, you have to project a lot. I mean, even in an NBA draft now, some of These guys are 19, 20 years old in the NFL draft. As you know, a lot of guys been in school four years. I got three years of playing tape. You know, I don't have to project. I kind of know if you have good feet, bad hands when you recruit, how much do you know, like with this kind of kid and how much are you just kind of hoping?
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Doug Gottlieb
Well, here's what I'm going to do. I'm going to tell you a story. I'm going to do story time with Colin instead of Colin doing story time. So his AAU coach is a guy named Victor Williams. Victor Williams was the point guard. After I graduated, he red shirted because he transferred in from Illinois State my senior year. And so Vic runs his own program, it's independent, in Kansas City, Missouri. And when I tell you, he called everybody, everybody and said, hey, I have a pro. And now he's on an independent circuit. So some of this is that he's on. It's. He's on a circuit called Recruit. Look, and, and you know, I was there this summer. I mean, I, I learned my lesson really, really early. And that you just have to be so thorough because there's going to be guys that fall through the cracks. So remember what's happened since COVID is guys are getting extra years. You know, Yaxo Landenberg, you know, he, he's been in school since the Beatles were out. You know, like, I mean, it's so, so the trend in college basketball has been get old stale. That's. Everybody says get old stale. And after my first year, at the end of the year, we had eight freshmen, one junior, one sophomore. And I was like, man, I got, I told my staff, I said, look, we're a nightclub, okay? 21 and over. Nobody gets in 21 and over. I. But then you saw this year, the freshman class has been outstanding. And he's the one that was most overlooked. And I think he was most overlooked because he wasn't on the shoe circuit. He was. How about this one? He was loyal to his AAU coach, right? He was. There's a. One of the best AAU programs in the country is called Mocan, Mocan Elite. They're out of Kansas City now. They have kids from Oklahoma, they have kids from all over and they play on the EYBL circuit. That's the Nike circuit. So whether, I don't know, I think they invited him to try out for it and he didn't. Why? Because he was actually loyal to Vic Williams, who he'd played for since like seventh grade. So all these things, one high school, I mean, college head coaches, a lot of them don't go out and if they do, they just go to Peach Jam and watch the creme de la creme. And then, you know, their assistants, we're so busy in the portal and recruiting overseas and Illinois has done a very good job overseas that a lot of these kids get missed. And then you're like, well, I'd love to have an 18, 19 year old, but if I bring him in, he's not going to play, then he's going to transfer. I'm going to pay him, and I'm going to develop him for somebody else. And so you got to credit Vic, but you also got to credit Illinois. They saw him, they recruited and they took him. And then when he showed up, they're like, holy cow. We didn't even know. There's no chance they knew he was this good ever. So they, they, yeah, you can do it. And I. Illinois has a lot of money. They don't have Duke money, they don't have Kansas money. Yeah, but you can do it if you're creative. And look at their starting lineup. Two overseas players who they're well compensated, but not to the 2, 3, 4 million dollars of some of these guys. And one freshman, right, who he didn't cost them hardly anything. Nothing. Zero. You know when I say nothing for a high major team, Colin, guys that make 250 to $300,000 a year don't play. If you make that much money, you can expect to not play. I swear to God. That's. That's the, that's the scale right now. Okay, so I'm guessing he's. I haven't asked. He's probably on that 250, 300 sort of range, whatever. And they might have bumped him up in the regular season once he starts humming and, and playing really, really well. But it's, it's difficult. You have to be thorough. You're going to miss some guys, but you have to use all the resources at your disposal and then go eyeball and see guys. Because what happens with the portal is yes, guys have been. You have a GM and, or, you know, your job as a coach is to research who might be in the portal, but it's like speed dating. So if you don't know who you're recruiting, if you don't know what you're getting, you're. You're taking somebody else's word for it. So you have to recruit based upon who they played for. You have to go see them with your eyes if you can. And then you really, really got to try and know the kid, know the person, so you might know what you're getting even then you're going to miss. Because recruiting is not an exact science.
- [14:03]
Colin Cowherd
Well, well. And, you know, let's talk Michigan. So they get Adai Mara from ucla. And at ucla, he was averaging five a game. And then the Spaniard, and then you watch him this year. And this is just life. I mean, we both have kids. Kids develop at different Times now he's an offensive hub.
- [14:23]
Doug Gottlieb
Big guys especially. Yeah, big guys.
- [14:25]
Colin Cowherd
So he's 7:3, much more aggressive offensively than at UCLA that I, I saw him play probably twice a year at ucla and he was kind of, he was, he was big. He's a good passer. You can kind of run some offense around him. He is obviously a dominant defender. It's just like, I mean I think Michigan thought they were getting a really good player. Like I'm watching him today live. I was at the game and I'm like, I don't know how college guys, you know, it was like Zach, Edie and they're different players but it's like that's hard to defend at the college level. He like Arizona's got the guard play Michigan's big Doug, when you're watching them live, like I don't know if, I don't know if it gigantic.
- [15:02]
Doug Gottlieb
Well and, and then remember they have Elliot Cadeau who was at North Carolina. He too has developed. He was a non shooter early on at North Carolina. So they've taken guys that other people have developed and then put them in their system. And then Landenberg, I think he's just a monster. But it's a man playing against boys. So. But, but they have. All of this is portal, but all this is portal of understanding who a guy is, right? Mara, UCLA's offense is not what Michigan's offense is. Right. Mick Cronin's all about toughness and then a lot of isos and the shot clock. Whereas Michigan. It's really pretty.
- [15:41]
Colin Cowherd
Oh God, it's beautiful in person. It's beautiful.
- [15:44]
Doug Gottlieb
Yes. Well, so Mike Boynton runs the defense there. He's the former Oklahoma State head coach. He's a dear friend of mine. And you know, when Mike was at Oklahoma State, I begged him for years, hire me to run your offense. And so, you know, we share offensive stuff with Michigan. We don't have that personnel, we don't have big guys, we don't play that way. But it's beautiful. But the point is that think about who they got. Landenberg was at Alabama, Birmingham playing for Andy Kennedy, very well coached. Okay. And Morrow was at ucla. You can pick apart anything about Mick Cronin. Hell of a coach, right? Elliot Cadeau played at North Carolina for Hubert Davis. So you're recruiting high level players who have been developed by high level coaches and then you put them in a system and you have some money, you have quality coaching. And I mean they're, they're incredibly dominant.
- [16:36]
Colin Cowherd
Just a dominant basketball and they'll play Arizona. Tommy Lloyd was with mark few for 20 years now. He's been at Arizona for five. He's been a coach of the year, national coach of the year twice. He was always a great recruiter for Mark. And it's. It's hard to get people to Spokane despite the fact it's a great program. Much easier to get him to Arizona. And Arizona's got a lot more money. I kind of laughed at the. Tommy. Tommy's going to go to unc. I'm like, guys, Arizona's got a lot of.
- [17:01]
Doug Gottlieb
Yeah, don't laugh at that yet, Colin. Really? That's the. That's the. That's the working rumor in college basketball is Arizona doesn't have that much money. There's. There's some fracture in the relationship there with his athletic director. And I was told that Michael Jordan called him two nights ago. So that's the working rumor.
- [17:20]
Colin Cowherd
Wow.
- [17:21]
Doug Gottlieb
So I don't. Again, I don't know. None of this is firsthand knowledge, but again, so look at Tommy, right? He does an incredible job with international players, but he didn't just start recruiting internationally. He's been recruiting internationally for 20 years. He has deep relationships, but he's also evaluate. So much of this is about evaluating talent.
- [17:44]
Colin Cowherd
Talent.
- [17:45]
Doug Gottlieb
Right. It's no different than you cover the NFL draft and you know how to evaluate, and the people you gravitate towards are people who evaluate talent. Well, what does it project to in a college basketball floor? What does it project to? And how we play? And then what does it project to? Honestly, you got to ask yourself, how does it project when I'm paying him more money than he's ever made in his life? Right. That's probably the hardest one. Right. Does he fit in our culture? So, I mean, look, Tommy's done it with these international players, Chris. I mean, those guys are awesome. That come back last night and was so good. But that comes from, like, Tommy Lloyd knows who the good and bad actors are in international basketball.
- [18:25]
Colin Cowherd
Yeah.
- [18:25]
Doug Gottlieb
Like, if I was to show you. If I was to show you my WhatsApp inbox, I got 50 agents from Serbia to Finland to Germany, to Israel to Norway, to Turkey, South America. Like, I got all these agents. They all send you guys and like, look, you have to be thorough and look through all these films, but if you don't know who the good actors and bad actors are, there going to be guys sending you people. Now, he's a high major player, and if you don't know, you're going to make Some mistakes. Tommy makes very few mistakes in international basketball, and it comes from unbelievable relationships. And just like the rest of these guys, great evaluation of what works. What worked for him and how they're going to fit in a college basketball system.
- [19:08]
Colin Cowherd
Yeah. And he does it his own way. They don't shoot any threes. I mean, it's like, you know, I mean, UConn.
- [19:14]
Doug Gottlieb
Well, okay, so. Yeah. So there's the math. Right?
- [19:16]
Colin Cowherd
Right.
- [19:17]
Doug Gottlieb
Basketball is about math. Right. So and. And sometime you and I, we should sit down. I'll tell you kind of how we figured out our math for our team, for our group. And it won't always be the same math, because every group's different. Right. So if you can't shoot threes, Colin, what do you have to do?
- [19:36]
Colin Cowherd
Well, you have to. First of all, if you can't shoot threes, you better have some size. You have to. I mean, you have to pound the ball low, obviously. I would think you'd want to slow the game down, wouldn't you?
- [19:49]
Doug Gottlieb
Well, you want to slow the game down, usually. Okay. When you have inferior talent. We played at a slower pace. We played at one of the slowest pace in the country because we didn't feel like we had the depth of athleticism, the depth of talent, talent. And we had to be unbelievably efficient. We're the most efficient team from two, from three, and we got to the free throw line. Time. Gotta get the free throw line. But you have to get more possessions than the other team. Okay. More possessions mean more shot opportunities. More shot opportunities usually mean you win. Right. So the only way there's. There's two ways to get more.
- [20:22]
Colin Cowherd
That was. That was St. John's by the way. They couldn't shoot. St. John's had to get more possessions.
- [20:28]
Doug Gottlieb
Correct. Right. So they had to pay up more possessions. How did they get it? Rebounding and turn you over. Right. So Michigan, by the way, rebounds the hell out of the basketball. Florida, this year, rebounds out of the basketball. So there's. There's lots of different ways to win it and to play. And you look at Tommy, and this is where you're a real coach. As you look at your team, you're like, hey, we can't shoot threes. So how about we don't shoot threes? But when we shoot it, let's go get it, you know, let's go get. Let's take efficient shots. And when we take inefficient shots, we have to be efficient with teaching how to offensive rebound. That's a weapon and then you have to defensive rebound and then you got to figure out, okay, are we athletic enough to turn you over? Because if we can turn you over again, you win the possession game. You win the possession game. You usually win the game unless there's such a disparity in three point shots of theirs to yours. So there's a math element to it and I love the fact that you pointed that out because Arizona is flipping the math. Because most people think the only math that matters is how many threes you make versus how many threes they make. That's not it. Okay. Free throws matter one, because if you shoot a high percentage from free throw line and we do again, that's a very efficient shot. And I will also credit the change in college basketball this year, which is a big one, is they kind of added the continuation rule. A lot more continuations, a lot more free throws. So you got to get to the free throw line. That also gets teams to their bench. And everybody's roster is built differently. But in the modern day of college basketball, most people put all their money in their starting lineups. You go to the bench, it's a house of cards, right? So by pounding it inside, even if post ups are an inefficient shot, if you can rebound the basketball or if you can get to the free throw line, now you get to their bench and when you get to their bench, often they don't rebound the ball nearly as well. So if you don't turn it over, you win the possession battle. If you rebound the basketball, you win the possession battle and you can make up for a lot of, of of not having the volume of three point attempts. If you can get to the free throw line and just overwhelm the other team with the number of field goal attempts you get as opposed to the ones that they get.
- [22:38]
Colin Cowherd
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- [25:04]
Sponsor Announcer
Support for the show comes from Public, the investing platform for those who take it seriously. On public, you can build a multi asset portfolio of stocks, bonds, options, crypto and now generated assets which allow you to turn any idea into an investable index. With AI. It all starts with your prompt. From renewable energy companies with high free cash flow to semiconductor suppliers growing revenue over 20% year over year. You can literally type any prompt and put the AI to work. It screens thousands of stocks, builds a one of a kind index and lets you back test it against the S&P 500. Then you can invest in a few clicks. Generated assets are like ETF with infinite possibilities, completely customizable and based on your thesis, not someone else's. Go to public.com podcast and earn an uncapped 1% bonus when you transfer your portfolio. That's public.com podcast paid for by Public Investing Brokerage Services by Open to the Public Investing Inc. Member FINRA and SIPC Advisory Services by Public Advisors, llc. SEC Registered Advisor Generated Assets is an interactive analysis tool. Output is for informational purposes only and is not an investment recommendation or advice. Complete disclosures available at public.com disclosures when people turn to telehealth for weight loss, they're looking for real support. That's why more people are choosing orderlymeds.com orderlymeds connects you with real doctors and access to proven GLP1 medications like semaglutide and Tirzeptatide. No guessing, just a more supportive experience. And all ship directly to your door in discreet packaging. Do your research, ask questions, then visit orderlymeds.com podcast for an exclusive offer. That's orderlymeds.com podcast. Individual results may vary. Not medical advice eligibility required. C site for details
- [26:35]
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Doug Gottlieb
No.
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- [26:45]
Fun.
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Let them put golden wings on a dog.
- [26:48]
Colin Cowherd
Good boy.
- [26:49]
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- [27:10]
Colin Cowherd
Well, you know it's interesting Doug. We both live in the Midwest now. Michigan State's the last team like 25, 30 years ago to win a Natty from the Big Ten. Now they dominate the sport. At one point I looked it up. I was sitting there counting at one point favorites went 160 one day in this tournament 12 and four another. And those Big Ten teams when they're favored. I saw a stat the other day. Big Ten teams favored in the last couple of years in the tournament were 32 and 5 and Wisconsin had three of the five losses. So like Big Ten teams are favored and they win. I predicted a little bit of this. I said listen, the Big Ten schools, those kids, there's not a lot of jobs in the Midwest outside of Chicago. They flee to the coasts and they make really good money and they still love their. They love their Big Ten teams and they'll write checks. And the Big Ten hell has three straight national championships in football. This year they return seven first or second round quarterbacks and they dominated this tournament. I mean I, I I. If I had to guess today, I would have Michigan against Illinois and the Natty. Although, you know, I mean, Arizona's guards are great, Tommy's great, and, you know, Dan Hurley wins in the March. But is it. Is. Is the Big Ten's resurgence and dominance. Is it just checks, Doug? Is it. From my purview, it's really good coaching.
- [28:27]
Doug Gottlieb
Oh, no, no, no.
- [28:28]
Colin Cowherd
And checks.
- [28:29]
Doug Gottlieb
Yes. Yes. And I would say there's great coaches in the Big 12. I would say that the Big 12 has been an unbelievable conference.
- [28:36]
Colin Cowherd
Yeah.
- [28:36]
Doug Gottlieb
Kansas a little down this year. Houston not as good as they had been this year. But here's the. Let's cut the brass tacks. You and I know this. The SEC cheated the brains out for years, Right. In football. So it's. It's a curious thing when everybody can spend money on their roster.
- [28:55]
Colin Cowherd
Right?
- [28:55]
Doug Gottlieb
Right. So now is. Now let's see how good you are. Right? When everybody's got dudes because they used to. They just used. You go and. And look, there's still a different caliber of athlete at times in the SEC than some of these teams. But I used. When I worked at cbs, I started covering more sec, and I got to go to SEC football games as well, just as kind of a fan and be on the sidelines. And back then, like, there was just a different. You look at. Even now you look at the Big 12, they just look different. The. The basketball expression is that guy's sneakers squeak different. Right. And I'm not. Again, I'm not saying that. That the Big Ten was high and mighty. They had plenty of scandals. Right. Minnesota had one. Michigan obviously had a big one. Ohio State had one. Whatever. Illinois, you know, got caught. Whatever. But the point is that generally, yes, the SEC was seen as a cheaters league. It just was. Yeah.
- [29:50]
Colin Cowherd
Through the churches and through the car dealers and. Absolutely, yes.
- [29:54]
Doug Gottlieb
Brown paper bags.
- [29:56]
Colin Cowherd
Yes.
- [29:57]
Doug Gottlieb
All of it. Okay. Now when it's. It's. It's not equal. And the reason that you have the 160 favorites is the rest of us, the little guys, we got no shots. We just do. We could. You can win a game. You can't win two or three. You just can't. You know, I. I'll never forget Colin. We were playing Ohio State last year, and I had. Anthony Roy was leading the country and scoring. He has 30 and it was eight. And all of a sudden we changed ball screen coverage and it's 18. I emptied my bench and it's 30. And I was just. I'm sitting in there and I'm Apoplectic. And I have this. And I. And I have a. I have a assistant named Eric Sanders, and his nickname is 8th grade. And 8th grade puts his arm around me and I go, dang it, I shouldn't have changed that ball screen coverage. I screwed up. I messed this up. And he's like, coach, they got three and a half million dollars. We got $95,000. Don't beat yourself up. We never had a chance, you know, so. So the point is that now there's the haves and the have nots, right? But you give Michigan legal money cheating, right? You give them elite coaching, right? And yeah, they're better than all those SEC teams that have always had. Now, look, the SEC has had some elite coaching as well, obviously, and they've been really, really good. But I. I really think that's what happened in football. That's what happened in, in. In basketball, right? I mean, Curtis a hell of a coach, but he's made much better when he's got $30 million to spend.
- [31:32]
Colin Cowherd
So it's interesting about the UNC job and the Michael Jordan comments, and that sounds ab. I mean, that's what I would do if I ran unc. I would call Michael and say, can you do us a solid? Totally makes sense to me. And this is why we brought you on the podcast today. Is that that kind of insight? What's interesting about the UNC job is I said, you know, Billy Donovan, I don't know if people remember.
- [31:55]
Doug Gottlieb
You do.
- [31:56]
Colin Cowherd
Florida wasn't just good. I mean, they had like, they were a. They were a Bully. They were UConn South. I mean, he was winning. He was winning not only divisional titles. The sec, which was used to be called like the Kentucky championship, right? Like, he was dominating Kentucky. And then he goes to okc, he goes to Chicago. And Chicago is not a serious organization. Reinsdorf will never sell it because it's the biggest arena. They lead the league in attendance. I was. I have season tickets. It's a great arena. They pack it and they're unwatchable tickets.
- [32:25]
Doug Gottlieb
You never said, hey, man, you want to come. Want to come watch a Bulls game? It's a three hour drive. Nothing. Nothing. It's the first time hearing of it.
- [32:31]
Colin Cowherd
Well, I bought, you know, listen, I bought partial hockey. Partial. We got family members here, and I go to the games and it's great. But the truth.
- [32:38]
Doug Gottlieb
I'm messing with you.
- [32:39]
Colin Cowherd
I know, but the truth is it's not a serious basketball operation. And I. And I said, I'm like, Billy's made his Money. He's a competitive guy. Competitive guys don't like to lose. Like, I could see him just saying, I'm better than half these coaches I lose to. I'm going to go win two Natties. I'm going to go to Carolina. And I thought when I was called you today, I thought, you know, there's always the sense. It's the association. But what's ironic, Doug, NBA coaches are getting younger. College coaches are getting older because a lot of the recruiting is administrative. You don't have to be at tournaments. You just write checks. If you were Billy Donovan, I mean, Reinsdorf's loyal to him. He. Would you consider unc?
- [33:21]
Doug Gottlieb
I mean, I would. The frustration that guys had. And I, you know, I don't. I used to. Every summer I take my kids, I think, as you know, to Maine for summer camp. And I would. I would spend a lunchtime with Brad Stevens. And Brad's always been like, not going back, you know, not like the NBA is great because it's all about basketball.
- [33:50]
Colin Cowherd
Yes.
- [33:51]
Doug Gottlieb
You know, what about academics?
- [33:52]
Colin Cowherd
No.
- [33:53]
Doug Gottlieb
Parents, recruiting. Nothing. Nothing. Okay. So agents, sometimes players, egos. But it's basketball. Basket's the best coaching in the world. Anybody says otherwise, literally doesn't know anything, anything, anything. It's incredibly coached. They're incredible players. But yeah, I mean, remember, his mentor is Rick Patino, and Rick Pitino has had, you know, he's the cat with nine lives. And he keeps coming back to college. Louisville has to let him go. He goes and wins in, In. In Greece. Comes back flips Iona. Now he's got St. John's back where they need to be, right? Or close to where they need to be. Yeah, I would like. He won two national titles in 2000. They beat us in the Elite Eight. He did an amazing job at Florida and he's tried. He's been at two historic, you know, like Oklahoma City has become kind of a sort of dominant team in this era. Right. They won a title. They've been to another finals. They're going to be around. And then he's in Chicago and hasn't been able to fix it. Like, why not? Because it's, it's not pro basketball. Okay. Any. Because it's amateur hour. Right. You're. You're dealing with quasi agents, wannabe agents, and they're still kids, but it's as close to the professional. It's really more like Europe where you're dealing a 12 year deal. Yeah, it's North Carolina. Why not? The, the only reason he might not do it is Because Kentucky might come open next year and that's the one he wants. The timing of it has always been a little off, but he'd have to resign like in a week. So he's there for the portal, but I can't speak to him. I don't know what he wants in his life. But generally what I was told was his wife didn't want to do a college town anymore. Yeah, he didn't want to mess with the academics.
- [35:44]
Colin Cowherd
I get it, I get it.
- [35:47]
Doug Gottlieb
But the academics, like, listen, believe me, at my place, the academics matter. Second highest GPA in team history, two consecutive years. Right?
- [35:55]
Colin Cowherd
We get.
- [35:55]
Doug Gottlieb
We were. My first year, we were on APR probation, couldn't practice. We more than five days in a week was crazy. Okay, but generally they're taking their classes online, right? It's. They're not great. The student and student athlete has been minimized to a very. It's, it's not even, it's in fine, fine print. And then athlete is in big print. Yeah, it's quasi professional basketball with a lot of amateur hour. But it's North Carolina, right? It's Carolina blue. It's argyle down the side. It's pretty dope. Would I do it? Yeah. Is he gonna do it? I don't know. Colin, Everybody has different motivation because there's part of me that says, well, if you have $50 million in the bank and you want two national titles, you could just go retire to a beach. Because I think that's what you would do.
- [36:45]
Colin Cowherd
Yeah, right.
- [36:46]
Doug Gottlieb
But then again, you're not as good a player as Billy Donovan was, leading Providence to the Final Four. I mean, a guy who's 5 foot 11, thick legged white guy makes the NBA. You're not doing that unless you're tougher than a $2 steak. And you're an incredible competitor. And so the competitor in you says, hey, I want to go out on top. I want to go out with the championship. What if I'm the guy to bring Carolina back? So again, I don't know. I will add this one last thing. He's not in the Carolina family. Okay. But his dad, I believe, grew up on Long Island. My dad grew up on Long Island. They were all kind of same. That's Larry Brown country. Okay. And of course, Larry Brown played at north carolina for Dick McGuire. And Dick McGuire used to bring down a New Yorker or two every year. So he's. He sort of up. He's obviously in the Patino family, but he's sort of North Carolina family adjacent. A little bit and it wouldn't stun me if he felt sort of like Carolina family. I don't know if he'd do it if it was me. Oh, yeah. When I do it, I coach Carolina any day.
- [37:52]
Colin Cowherd
Yeah.
- [37:53]
Doug Gottlieb
Michael Jordan calling recruits. Yes.
- [37:55]
Colin Cowherd
Yeah.
- [37:56]
Doug Gottlieb
Yes. So I can't tell you what he's, you know.
- [37:59]
Colin Cowherd
Yeah.
- [38:00]
Doug Gottlieb
Because when you're. When you're in purgatory where the way the Bulls are.
- [38:03]
Colin Cowherd
Yeah.
- [38:04]
Doug Gottlieb
Like, what are you. Like, what are we doing here?
- [38:05]
Colin Cowherd
Yeah, that's. That's my whole take is he's such a competitive guy and they're not a serious franchise. And I say that as somebody that loves going to the games. They, you know, nobody. We just. You kind of look at the Bulls and it is. It's sort of like watching, you know, Cleveland, the Browns. You're like, you're not. You're not. You fire Stefanski. You have Todd Monk and like, what are you doing? I mean, Stefanski interviews for seven jobs within three days. Like, what are you doing?
- [38:30]
Doug Gottlieb
Well, there's a. I don't know. If you curse in your pod, I apologize. You can bleep it out. But there's an express. There's an expression that I. I'm in Oklahoma visiting my kids right now, and there's a profession I learned here. And it's true with the Bulls and with the Browns, they're just Fiddle around. Right? They just are. You know, they're just. They're just. They're playing games because you got to play games and you got to make money and they. They affect like nothing. Zero. And so if you're fiddle. Do you want to fiddle around at the end of your career or do you want to go and try and win a national championship? So. But again, I don't know what motivates him, and I don't know if he wants a. I want to be the guy that gets the Bulls back. I don't know what the answer to that one is.
- [39:10]
Colin Cowherd
So I wrote down my. My NBA mock lottery draft, and I do think AJ DeVonta at BYU probably today would go number one. I think one of the things I said, like, like, Cam Boozer is not a super athlete, but he's going to go top five. I think Caleb Wilson's ceiling is insane. He's not polished yet, but, God, he has. You can just see there'll be two or three plays a game and you're like, holy. You know, is he. Bam. Out of bayou with a higher ceiling? Like, like, what is he. So the Darren Peterson thing's fascinating because and you played against them this year. Your Green Bay team played against. You're the one that called me and said, you go, you gotta watch this guy. And it's very early in the season. It was like I watched five possessions. I'm like, well, that's what Kobe probably looked at. 18 years old, he looks like Kobe. I mean, it's kind of an easy comp. Now. He wasn't. He got beat up. The calf, the hammies. He wasn't. He wasn't as athletic. He wasn't durable. The two things that worry me, one's obvious I'll get to in a second. The first thing that worries me is he plays in a silo. A little like Kawhi. First five years in the league, no assists, has the ball a ton. No assists. He's playing in a silo. He's playing for himself. Don't love guys like that. As great as Kawhi is, he is a little bit like Kawhi. Not stylistically, but plays in a silo. Durability issues. If you're hurt in college, the rules always been bigger, stronger dudes in the pros. It's hard. But I think what really worries me is when he comes out and says, this thing got into my head, and I start thinking about. And this is not analogous, but, oh, Ben Simmons, Markel Foltz, Royce White. And listen, I feel I have sympathy for anybody that can struggle with mental health or whatever it is, but if I'm an NBA in a loaded draft where I watch Caleb Williams and I'm like, he's only 50% of the player he's going to be in three years, I see, you know, AJ de Monta. I see. I see Wagler, the guard at Illinois, and I'm like, is he the next sga? Jesus, he's six. Six again. He's not even halfway home. What do you do with Darren Peterson? If you were a gm, could you. Could you draft them? Number one?
- [41:18]
Doug Gottlieb
Well, here's the. You know, when I used to work at CBS and espn, they talk about the eye test.
- [41:24]
Colin Cowherd
Yeah.
- [41:25]
Doug Gottlieb
And the problem with the eye test is it kind of depends upon the day when you see a guy. So again, you have to remember that we watched all the preseason stuff. We watched and we were, like, in love with Darren Peterson. And then, I mean, we. We had no chance to stop. He was so good. So, you know, what do I. And I was one. I said, like, he's like Kobe in that. He can literally say, like, you remember Larry Bird? Those old Larry Bird, living legend Videos. I'm gonna get the ball right here, and I'm gonna drill right there. I'm shooting. I'm gonna make it. And then he did it.
- [41:54]
Colin Cowherd
Yeah.
- [41:54]
Doug Gottlieb
It feels like he. He gets to his spots and he plays. He's never sped up. He plays at his own pace. He's great.
- [42:01]
Colin Cowherd
Yes.
- [42:02]
Doug Gottlieb
First thing everybody should know is, okay, that if the Utah Jazz have the number one pick, they're taking AJ Devonsa. How do I know? He went to Utah Prep, which is funded by Ryan Smith. He went to byu, which is funded by Ryan Smith. Ryan Smith owns the Utah Jazz. If you want to call something tampering, there's never been a person that has ever been tampered with more than AJ DeBonsa to end up with the Utah Jazz ever, ever, ever in the history of anything. Everybody knows it. Everybody. So that's the first thing. It doesn't matter who else. Jesus Christ could be getting ready to walk on water and turn water into wine. They're drafting A.J. deBonso. Outside of that, boy, it's hard because the Arkansas point guard, he's tremendous. Tremendous.
- [42:49]
Colin Cowherd
Darius, he's.
- [42:51]
Doug Gottlieb
He's fantastic.
- [42:53]
Colin Cowherd
And. And by the way, he's athletic and can also catch and shoot. A lot of athletic guards are rhythm scorers. He can catch and shoot, and he's also a great passer, which a lot of great scorers aren't.
- [43:06]
Doug Gottlieb
Yeah, well, he. Listen, you can. He'll run your offense tomorrow, and he'll be. He'll be great at it. Would I draft him? I really have to know what's going on with the shutting it down at halftime thing. Again, all my information is second and third hand, so I don't want. Especially with. With medicals. I don't want to. I can tell you that, you know, we had. My point guard had cramping issues, and it does mess with you mentally, because you might feel one coming on and you're like, okay, take me out. I feel one coming on here. And we tried pickle juice. The packers gave us this medicine they give to NFL players that didn't work. There is a mental component to it where your brain triggers the cramping. Again, this is from. From actual experience with one of my. With my. My leader, my team captain. So I would just have to know more about the. About the medicals. I do agree he's not really a creative passer. No, he is a score. He is a throwback classic. He's somewhere between Kobe and DeMar DeRozan. But here's the part I do like Unbelievable competitor. Not scared of the big moment and has a, has a body, you know, he's got a, just a body like a Greek God. So he'll assimilate to the NBA game quite well. Yeah, I would like him to pass a little bit more. But the biggest thing with him is the medicals. Is he going to play every night?
- [44:29]
Colin Cowherd
Yeah.
- [44:29]
Doug Gottlieb
And you're right, like, I'll give you the example. Embiid hurt in college, hurt all the time in the pros. Kyrie hurt in college, her all the time. Zion hurt in college, hurt all the time in the pros. So you have to trust your medical people and you have to figure out what you need. But the answer is, yes, I would if I was. All that stuff was cleared. He's just again, his sneakers squeak different. He moves at a different gait, a different pace, a different rhythm. And I do think that as the NBA game opens up, he's got even better spacing. And they play with great spacing at, at, at Kansas, but even better, obviously, like, it's just hard to see. How are you going to stop it him? I know he's going against college kids, but he's a real college kid. Yeah, I'm personally a big fan. I think DeBonsa goes one. He'll, he'll probably go too. But it's all going to be about the medicals. And then the question is, and this is this, this goes to your Kawhi thing. Was the dad telling him to shut it down at halftime or was it him, his body? Right. Is the dad too involved? Whereas with Kawhi, it's the uncle that's apparently too involved.
- [45:40]
Colin Cowherd
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Colin Cowherd
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- [49:17]
Doug Gottlieb
Lenovo go.
- [49:25]
Colin Cowherd
All right, we're going to wrap it up with this. Doug Gottlieb, coach at Green Bay. Left broadcasting, went to coaching first year and it. He had to scramble to put a squad together. He had a great score, score got hurt. But this year and I followed, you know, I watched a lot of YouTube and a lot of Green Bay basketball. It's actually women's and men's now. Both can really play. So the women are excellent. And you guys finished third in the Horizon League. And I'm going to ask you this question because I think somebody I know just got a really big job and they called. I sent a congratulation text and they reached out and they're like, I'm a little nervous. And I said, if you're not nervous, you didn't take a big enough swing. You have to be nervous if you're not nervous. Dude, you just took a parallel job. If you're not sweating bullets your first six weeks, you didn't. You're not challenging yourself. And listen, you weren't nervous because you knew basketball, but it's coaching and it was a program that didn't have a lot of stuff and you've been raising money and you, maybe you were nervous. I mean, so my question is, what is the one thing. If you're a young coach and you want a coach and you have all this experience, your dad was a coach, you're a player, you're a broadcaster, you've built a program. Now if I said to you, Doug, you, you, it's not even, it's just give the young Doug Gottlieb, you're, you've had 15, 18 months now, what today do you know that you didn't. And you had great knowledge of college basketball. Of all my friends, you had much different level knowledge. What is the one thing you're like, man, I, I didn't even know that.
- [51:05]
Doug Gottlieb
So, so the, the, the thing in all business that people talk about is culture, but no one actually talks about what that means. Right? But it is everything. It is absolutely everything. I would love to say there's one thing, and I'll get to what I think the biggest thing is in a second. But, you know, it's not just about, you know, I always thought, okay, hire really good people that know more than you or that cover your weaknesses and let them coach, trust them. Yeah, but there's a second step to that. Which is they have to be able to work together and they have to be able to work in whatever school that you're at or whatever business. Like, just because you can sell hats doesn't necessarily mean you can sell washers and dryers, because there are some nuances to it. And I changed my staff from year one to year two. It could not be more important. Our players were so prepared. I was so prepared. My staff made me look like a great coach. I was ranked the 360. 300. There's 365. I thought 40 teams. Oh, yeah, 365. I was ranked 358 coming into the year. Okay. A 358. And honestly, the difference is I. My staff is unbelievable. But it's not just because they're good and they work hard and they're prepared. It's because they're connected. You know, I talk about this with my team all the time. What hurts more, open hand or a fist? A fist does. Okay. It's the same weapon, only it's tight, it's cohesive, it's together. Same thing with a team, same thing with a coaching staff. Culture is everything. And when you're. Here's the biggest thing when you're going to build a team. I can't speak to high school because high school, you don't really recruit. They just show up. But you have to find leadership. You have to find leadership. You have to find leadership. Yeah. That's how you build your culture. Who's your leader? Who holds them accountable? And then you have to hold that person the most accountable. You have to hold all of them accountable. If you don't, they think you're a phony. Right. If you don't have leadership, you know, Look, I have 16 guys. I can play five guys. That means for the most part, there's going to be somewhere between six to 10 parents that are pissed off every time they turn on the TV to watch that. Watch their kid play. Right?
- [53:48]
Colin Cowherd
Right.
- [53:50]
Doug Gottlieb
And the players feel that culture is everything. Everything, everything, everything, everything. You have to build it from the top down with your staff having great culture and having figure out who's going to lead your team. Lean into that, trust them, push them, hold them accountable, and they'll hold everybody else accountable. The plays don't matter. They don't.
- [54:15]
Colin Cowherd
Right?
- [54:15]
Doug Gottlieb
They really don't. I can. I can draw JJ Redick is awesome at all the pretty plays. Okay. But those guys don't like each other and ultimately it'll end to failure. Right. You have to have Toughness. Toughness is character. Character is culture. So it's a broad word that everybody says, but I can tell you that if you don't have culture, doesn't matter, because things are going to get hard, they're going to feel unfair, and. And they'll either crumble or they'll get stronger and find a way to overcome it. That. That's what. That's what UConn did tonight. They have great culture. Alex Cariban is a. Has great character. He's been there forever, would not let them lose. Yes, he could have left two years ago when they won the national championship, but he didn't, and he stayed, And I have a great year. It doesn't matter. Hit big shots, made big plays. They have great culture, great character. Recruit the person and the player will follow.
- [55:10]
Colin Cowherd
Yeah, I've said with JJ Redick, they actually golf now. The Lakers, they go on the road, and they golf as a team. And I actually thought that was one of the smartest things he's done this year, is take. I mean, you've got old LeBron, you've got ascending Austin, you've got, like, Marcus Smart, your only true defender. Like, it's a weird, lopsided roster. And JJ and I bet you JJ and LeBron probably sat down with this and just said, we got it. Like, we gotta make this a. We gotta make this collection, synthesize it. We gotta figure. And now they post pictures all the time. They're. They're golfing, and it looks like fun, but I'm like, no, there's a real. There's a message to that. There's a real.
- [55:49]
Doug Gottlieb
No, they're. They're definitely. They're definitely trying to build it, and, you know, everybody's got a different way. I just. I don't think they. I still think you. You watch their body language at times, and you're like, yeah, I don't. I don't. I. But you and I both know, once they get to the playoffs, it's so physical, it's so defensive oriented. It's. Now that changes. If they change the way they officiate it and they let it be offensive dominated the way the regular season is. Well, they got a great shot, but I haven't seen that, and you and I haven't seen that in our lifetime in the playoffs. The playoffs are a slugfest. The playoffs are about toughness and cohesion, and ultimately shot making comes after that, and I don't think they have it. But you asked what matters. Culture. Character matters more than anything. You know, and it's, you know, I, I, the. You want to know the only time a cop has called me in my entire time, and I've been 22 months on the job?
- [56:44]
Colin Cowherd
Yeah.
- [56:45]
Doug Gottlieb
I had a kid, he's a freshman, and there was a snowstorm, and we're driving back from a big road win. I think this was that. It was 1st of January. It might have been the 1st of January. Coach, can you come to the office? What's going on? Well, I pulled over so and so for doing donuts in the parking lot. I said, why are you calling me? Right. So I was just doing donuts in the parking lot with my son like 10 minutes ago. So. Empty parking lot, school's out of session. Kid decided to do some donuts with a bunch of his teammates in the car. And that's the biggest problem we had. So we weren't the most talented. And again, I understand there's a talent component when you get to the highest level. Some of the things you got to swallow and swallow heart. But if you don't have. If you don't recruit good character, if you don't recruit good people, you don't have good people surrounding you. If you don't have a tight knit, it doesn't matter. You're not gonna win. You got no shot. Don't even, don't even suit up. And don't yell and don't scream and don't cuss because it's on you as the coach, because you recruited him. Whether it's your assistant coaches, you offer them the job. It's your players. You recruit them, you offer them money, it's on you. Find the best people, and you'll figure out a way to win more games than you lose.
- [57:56]
Colin Cowherd
Awesome. You'll spend time with your kids. I'm going to go eat dinner, buddy.
- [58:02]
Doug Gottlieb
The volume.
- [58:05]
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Colin Cowherd
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Doug Gottlieb
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- [60:42]
Doug Gottlieb
That's innerbalance.
- [60:43]
Sponsor Announcer
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