Daniel Cormier Show - Kamaru Usman on getting KNOCKED OUT by Leon Edwards, UFC title run, beating Buckley

Summary

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The Herd with Colin Cowherd

Daniel Cormier Show – Kamaru Usman on Getting Knocked Out by Leon Edwards, UFC Title Run, Beating Buckley

Date: November 20, 2025
Host: Daniel Cormier
Guest: Kamaru Usman

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Episode Overview

This special episode of The Daniel Cormier Show delves deep into the life and legacy of Kamaru “The Nigerian Nightmare” Usman, one of UFC’s most dominant welterweights. Host Daniel Cormier moves past championship highlights to explore Usman’s upbringing in Nigeria, his wrestling and fighting journey, the immense emotion of defeat and victory, his evolution as a man, father and mentor, and the permanent imprint left by those who shaped him—particularly Rashad Evans and the late Anthony ‘Rumble’ Johnson. Usman offers personal, candid insight into life after the belt, the pain and growth found in loss (notably his knockout at the hands of Leon Edwards), and the importance of legacy off the mat.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

Life After the Belt: Adjusting to a New Chapter

• Transition from Champion to Contender:
  • Usman shares how being champion brought constant anxiety: “There’s this chip on your shoulder… you’re always looking over your shoulder. You hit a lick by having a title, and now you’re always looking—are they coming to get me?” (06:24)
  • Now, he embraces presence and balance: “I’m more comfortable in understanding that… right now, I don't need to dwell on that.” (06:52)
• The Battle for Balance:
  • Juggling the fighter mentality and family life:
    “Now you gotta go to tennis practice. Maybe change a diaper. Those things pull you emotionally away from that consistent anxiety about the next move and fighting and this guy and the next guy.” (08:52)

The Journey: From Nigeria to National Champion to World Champion

• Childhood in Nigeria:
  • Vividly recalls his childhood in humble beginnings: “There’s just these three little boys running around just causing mayhem… My mom had a little… convenience store… We farmed… but I don’t remember any moment I was unhappy.” (32:11)
• Immigration and Assimilation:
  • On moving to the US for opportunity: “We come from a culture of people… ambitious and relentless in their pursuit of excellence… but… there’s only ten spots and a million people running that race.” (33:12)
  • Faced cultural and language barriers: “This country requires excellence from you… you better learn English… ESL was kind of in school, and kids are cruel, made it seem like you’re in the special class.” (38:19)
• Wrestling Identity:
  • Debates the tension between his real name “Kamaru” and high school nickname “Marty,” and how he grew to embrace his African identity:
    “Once I got into a position to where… I’m representing my name… my father, his lineage, and everyone. The name they gave me—like, no, I have to represent that. I’m a grown man now.” (45:22)

Craft, Growth, and the Making of a Champion

• Transition to MMA:

  • Usman describes “cheating on wrestling” with MMA after the 2012 Olympic trials, initially terrified of fighting, then toughened up by elite training and beatings:
    “Rashad whooped me so bad…crucified me…held me down…staring out the window, trying not to make shit.” (13:53)
  • Realization of readiness came a year later: “I remember walking out of that practice going—oh, I’m ready. Something is working here.” (15:18)

• Developing Skills:

  • Kickboxing was toughest to adopt: “As a wrestler, you’re over your front leg…and now with kickboxing, you have to be balanced… ready to drop at a dime to defend and return some.” (16:14)

• On Being Overlooked & Underappreciated:

  • Usman acknowledges that early underappreciation in his career gave him a necessary chip on his shoulder:
    “Being underappreciated early on…gave me that chip to do something spectacular enough to have the fans respect you.” (57:26)

• On Building Success & Legacy:

  • Reflects on the hunger of his early years versus comfort as champion:
    “When you first come in, it’s the fear of the unknown…so I’m blindly going, and I don’t care about anything but this… Now I know that with consistent work, I can get there.” (25:10, 26:35)
  • On future generations:
    “The moment I was able to floor my father (with the belt)...words can’t describe that.” (36:47)
    “…Then the next level is when you show it to your kids…and then the third level is when they repay the favor…it’s the circle of life.” (37:23)

The Agony and Wisdom of Defeat: The Leon Edwards KO

• The Knockout (Leon Edwards Head Kick):

  • Usman describes the memory gap:
    “It’s like lost in time…when your computer shuts down. Boom. And then reboots… No new information.” (61:09)
  • Waking up and realizing what happened:
    “She [paramedic] asks, ‘Do you know the date?’…I want to get the right answer, so I’m like, it’s Saturday August something, Salt Lake City, Utah, UFC 270….[then] I wake up. Shut the up… That’s how you wake up.” (63:55, 64:18)
  • The pain made worse:
    “Someone had clipped out my daughter…she’s crying hysterically… I saw that, and that’s when it broke me.” (66:04)

• Emotional Impact & Comeback:

  • On entering the Buckley fight post-defeats:
    “I’m still the same, but the confidence is hurting…when all you’ve ever known is success, and that’s not what it’s been lately…it messes with you.” (66:54)
  • On the relief of climbing out of adversity:
    “Adversity is a blessing…to go out there and have that actually happen and show that you are that guy… it was very, very emotional.” (68:51, 70:13)

Mentorship, Brotherhood, and the Impact of Rashad Evans & Anthony ‘Rumble’ Johnson

• Rashad Evans:

  • Usman credits Rashad as pivotal:
    “Rashad was instrumental in just getting me to switch over to the sport…one of the first of what we are now.” (75:39, 76:13)
  • Evans opened his home to Usman, helping him transition and providing kinship and support:
    “Rashad just had that heart… I moved to Florida, lived with Rashad for two and a half, three years.” (78:40)

• Anthony Johnson:

  • On losing ‘Rumble’:
    “It affected me… it’s a little different, I almost pre-mourn situations…when we found out he was sick, I nourished that relationship a bit more…He left me a necklace…” (81:32)

Fatherhood and Life After Fighting

• On Being Present:

  • Fatherhood is central:
    “It means a lot because I got that from my first daughter… I always knew I wanted to be a father… I just see the importance of that.” (84:27)

• On Balancing Work & Family:

  • The classic tradeoff:
    “If you want to give them everything, they have to understand Daddy’s not going to make every event, you’re not going to be around…it’s that double-edged sword…” (86:45)

• Looking to the Future:

  • Usman is considering podcasting, acting, fashion, and more:
    “Television, broadcasting, podcasting, acting, fashion…You have options to have built this life.” (87:37)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On the champion’s burden:

  “There’s this chip on your shoulder… you’re always looking over your shoulder. Are they coming to get me? So there’s that anxiety you feel each and every time.”
  — Kamaru Usman (06:24)

• On embracing his real name and identity:

  “Once I got into a position to where… I’m representing my name…my father…Everyone…no, I have to represent that. I’m a grown man now.”
  — Kamaru Usman (45:22)

• On the loss to Leon Edwards and memory blackout:

  “It’s like lost in time.…when your computer shuts down. Boom. And then reboots…the computer got no new information.”
  — Kamaru Usman (61:09)

• On fatherhood and pride:

  “The moment I was able to floor my father… Words can’t describe that.”
  — Kamaru Usman (36:47)

• On adversity:

  “Adversity is a blessing. As much as we hate it, as much of an annoyance as it is for us, adversity is a blessing. Having the ability to have things…happen to you, that’s a blessing, because now you get to feel something.”
  — Kamaru Usman (68:51)

• On his desired legacy:

  “I want everyone that had an encounter… did business or did anything with me, I want them to say he did right by me.”
  — Kamaru Usman (90:19)

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Important Timestamps

• Early reflections on post-title life: 05:05 – 10:25
• Transition from wrestling to MMA: 10:36 – 15:38
• Early struggles, skill development, and sparring stories: 15:38 – 18:45
• Wrestling identity and embracing the “Kamaru” name: 41:45 – 46:54
• Childhood in Nigeria & immigration: 31:07 – 34:43
• Fatherhood and pride in achievement: 35:12 – 38:05
• The Leon Edwards knockout (head kick): 61:00 – 66:04
• Emotions after victory over Buckley: 66:50 – 71:09
• Rashad Evans and Anthony Johnson’s impact: 74:36 – 81:10
• Reflections on legacy and "doing right": 90:08 – 91:35

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Tone & Style

Cormier and Usman’s conversation was candid, earnest, and occasionally lighthearted, with strong undercurrents of respect, resilience, and gratitude. Usman was unafraid to get personal, especially regarding his struggles with cultural identity, the pain of public defeat, and the emotional reality of fatherhood, loss, and legacy.

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For Listeners & Fans

This episode offers a deep, humanizing portrait of Kamaru Usman beyond his dominance in the cage. It's essential listening for fans interested in the emotional and psychological journey of an elite athlete, the cultural dynamics of success for immigrants, and the challenges of transition after fame.

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Transcript

[Sophie Cunningham]

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[Kamaru Usman]

Learn more at paypal.com payin4paypal inc.nmls910457 yo.

[Daniel Cormier]

It'S DJ Wells here. The NBA on prom is back this Friday with another great Emirates NBA cup doubleheader. First you got Pascal Siakam and the Pacers as they score off against Navin Mitchell and the Cavs. There's Nikolai Jokic and the Nuggets taking care of Kevin Durant and the Rockets. If you're not a Prime member, just sign up for a 30 day free trial. Pacers, Cavs, Nuggets, Rockets coverage starts at 6:30pm Eastern Time only on Prime. Restrictions apply. See Amazon.com amazonprime for details.

[Sophie Cunningham]

I turned off news altogether.

[Podcast Advertiser]

I hate to say it, but I.

[Kamaru Usman]

Don'T trust much of anything.

[Commercial Announcer]

It's the rage bait.

[Sophie Cunningham]

It Feels like it's trying to divide people.

[Podcast Advertiser]

We got clear facts.

[Daniel Cormier]

Maybe we can calm down a little.

[Kamaru Usman]

NBC News brings you Clear reports reporting. Let's meet at the facts. Let's move forward from there. NBC News reporting for America. The volume.

[Daniel Cormier]

Valentina Shevchenko. Welcome to a very special episode of the Daniel Cormier show, brought to you by Total Wireless, the official wireless provider of UFC. They're in your corner with unlimited 5G data that will not slow you down. Today, guys, I have the honor of sitting down with one of the greatest fighters and welterweights to ever compete in the ufc. Kamaru Usman went from growing up in Nigeria to becoming a national champion wrestler in the US and rose all the way to being the undisputed world champion and put together one of the most dominant win streaks in sports ever seen. But what makes this conversation special is that I'm not going to just talk to him about the titles and the highlights. I want to talk about the man that's behind the run we'll get into living in Nigeria. The identity challenges he faced. There was a knee injury that changed his entire athletic path and the rise from an overlooked wrestler to a world champion. We want to talk about the Leon Edwards fights, how emotional he was after he beat Joaquin Buckley. Fatherhood, mentorship, the impact of Rashad Evans and Rumble Johnson. His future in podcasting, television and fashion, and what life looks like after fighting. Kamaru Usman is a fashionista at heart. Today I'm trying to get to the fighter, the father, the mentor, and the man. Guys, give it up for the one and only, the great Kamaru, the Nigerian Nightmare Usman.

[Kamaru Usman]

Oh, so I see what you.

[Daniel Cormier]

Do you understand? Do you understand now?

[Kamaru Usman]

I. I understand.

[Daniel Cormier]

You like that?

[Kamaru Usman]

Yeah, I like that. I like that. That was really in depth, personal. Hey, it seems more high level. I see what you're doing there.

[Daniel Cormier]

That was.

[Kamaru Usman]

I see what you're doing.

[Daniel Cormier]

But you're a guy that deserves that type of acknowledgment for all that you've done in your career.

[Kamaru Usman]

I appreciate that.

[Daniel Cormier]

But as we look into today. Right, like, what is the thing that keeps Kamaru Usman up? Like, what is. What is keeping you up today in life?

[Kamaru Usman]

Move. I think you have to. Now I'm a father, obviously, and I'm very, very honest about to who I am, about where I am. And so I think that's. That's one of the biggest things is because of that. I know that one. I'm no spring chicken. Yeah, I know that it's at some Point this chapter has to flip over, has to be. Have to move on from it. And so I'm starting to realize that more and more. And because of that, what. What keeps gets me up is just is man thinking about that next step, what potentially is going to come. I think that's right now the main objective for me is closing this chapter out the absolute best way possible, and then using it to segue into the next chapter.

[Daniel Cormier]

So what's different like right now, your life today, how much different does it look from when you were the champion of the world? And what do you think is one thing that would surprise people in terms of your day to day that they might not expect from a guy like you who lives the life that you live?

[Kamaru Usman]

What's the main. The main difference is when you're the champion, there's this chip on your shoulder that you are any moment, wherever you're at, there's a chip on your shoulder. You're always looking over your shoulder. It's almost like, you know, you, you, you hit it lick by having a title. And now you're, you're always looking over your shoulder. Are they coming to get me? Are they coming to get me? So there's that anxiety feel that you have each and every time I have to get back in the gym, I have to work out today twice a day. I have to do this to keep the rest off. That's a big difference to where I am today, to where I'm in a place now where I'm more comfortable in understanding that, hey, when this fight's gonna come, these emotions and these feelings are going to come. But right now, I don't need to dwell on that.

[Daniel Cormier]

But do you miss that? I mean, there's something to having that, right? That, that constantly in fight mode, knowing that there's essentially danger at every turn because you are the guy with the target on your back. You are the guy that's holding on to that championship belt that so many people covet.

[Kamaru Usman]

I do miss it in a sense, but I don't miss it in. In a. I don't miss it at the same time because I understand now that I can turn it on and off. I'm not completely done to where I'm like, okay, I'm never going to feel that again.

[Daniel Cormier]

Yeah.

[Kamaru Usman]

But I do understand that. Okay, I know how to turn that on.

[Daniel Cormier]

But isn't it. But isn't that even a harder balance and act being that you are still active? Right. But you are a guy that recognizes. I'm closer to the end than I am to the beginning. Right, Right. But I do want to still live in that battle where I know I can still be a world champion, but I also now have this family, and my life is so different around me.

[Kamaru Usman]

It's harder in the sense of as the competitor getting. Wanting to make my way there and getting there. We only knew one way, you see, we knew that one way was the only way I could truly measure success, or the one thing I could really accredit to success is consistent work. And that consistent work is the one way I can go. You know what? It's because I was doing this consistently all the time. I was locked in. I was. That's what got me here. So with now being in this position is now you got a family.

[Daniel Cormier]

Yeah.

[Kamaru Usman]

Now you. You gotta go to tennis practice. Now you have to maybe change a diaper. And those things pull you emotionally away from that consistent anxiety, thinking about the next move and fighting and this guy and the next guy. And so that's a tricky one to where it could be more, but also it could be better in the sense of you need that little relaxation, that little mind away from this. So you, when you get back in this, you are fully aware.

[Daniel Cormier]

You know, you and I both come from a world in wrestling where it's very hard to be the absolute man. And while you are the man, there's always someone bigger, badder at times. Right. So in wrestling, you were a multiple time national champion in a different level.

[Kamaru Usman]

Okay, one time, multiple time All American.

[Daniel Cormier]

All American finalist, but a national champion. Right. You went to the Olympic level chasing that dream, and you were like one of the fourth or fifth best guys in the world. So I said in the intro, a little bit of an overlooked wrestler. Hard to be overlooked when you have those level of accomplishments. But in wrestling it is that. But in fighting, something must have clicked for you to become the man that you became on that run to the championship, ultimately putting together one of the greatest win streaks. Whoever seen in the ufc, can you recall a time where you felt it click for you? Or you're like, okay, now I know I'm ready to be the guy?

[Kamaru Usman]

Yeah, that's. It's a great question, but first let's clear up, because you know the wrestling guy is going to come for us. So let's clear up this. I was Olympic Training center resident.

[Daniel Cormier]

Yes, but you were chasing that dream.

[Kamaru Usman]

Yeah, I was chasing that dream, really working up, and I was really competitive with those guys. One, two, three guys on the ladder. But there just came a time Where I. Because it was like MMA was like the girlfriend and I think you and King Mo and we went through kind of this similar struggle where we love wrestling. That's the world we were comfortable in. Yeah. But you started flirting now with this new fighting, this new thing.

[Daniel Cormier]

It's like a new girlfriend.

[Kamaru Usman]

Yeah. So I, I went over there and trained a little bit. Not man kind of like. Like this thing. So wrestling practice going on and, and the coach is showing the moves and I'm standing in the back while everyone's kind of taking a knee. Sitting. I'm standing list watching the move. But I'm. I can imagine how, how just irritated Zadik or. Or Slave. Breathless. Slave was at, at that moment looking back there and I'm doing. While I'm watching them.

[Daniel Cormier]

Cuz you already gone. Your mind was gone.

[Kamaru Usman]

Mentally. I was starting to kind of cheat on wrestling a little bit. And so I made the decision fully after the 2012 trials. And I was like, I'm going to this. And of course I'm afraid of it because it's a fear of the unknown. I don't know what's going to happen on that side. This is a dangerous sport. This is different wrestling. We were controlled in a sense to where this is all they throwing elbows and knees. Oh man, I don't know. I don't know about this. And I get in there and obviously wrestling is the one tool that, that is the, the biggest tool to help you in that next avenue. I could kind of control the real estate of the, of a sparring, but I never really throwing punches at someone. Yeah. Other than just street fights. And now I'm in a training session and I'm just getting whooped on. I'm telling you, it was one day and I, and I've told this story a few times. Rashad whooped me so bad. And he was on the road too. Kind of like we are now. We're on the road for like three weeks, a month. And Rashad's on the road doing these shows, commentating and analysts. He come back and I'm at home just training. Yeah. I'm like, oh, I can't wait for him to come back. Big bro's coming back. I'm gonna put it on him.

[Daniel Cormier]

I'm gonna show him.

[Kamaru Usman]

I'm gonna show him. You better be in the gym like me. You ain't been in the gym. We go to practice, he's still talking on the side. I'm plotting in my head what I'm gonna do to him at this Practice this session. It's a sparring day. I'm plotting. Oh, yeah, I'm gonna take him down. I'm gonna just. I'm gonna. I know he. He ain't in shape.

[Daniel Cormier]

I'm.

[Kamaru Usman]

I'm gonna kill him. He's still talking to, like, fans that would come in to our gym because we had a superstar gym at that point.

[Daniel Cormier]

Oh, yeah, the Black Zillions Crazy Jim.

[Kamaru Usman]

And so we start sparring. I'm like, nah, I'm gonna give him, like, a round or two less. I might get him tired, and then I'm gonna put it on him. Then we finally get going, like, about the third, fourth round. This man persistently beat the out of me, took me down, crucified me. I shot him for takedowns my. And I couldn't get him. Not only could I not get him, he stuffed about two, three of them. And then he took me down.

[Daniel Cormier]

Come on.

[Kamaru Usman]

Took me down, held me down. You know, back then, Rashad was heavy bottom, like, he could just. Oh, man. He was crucifying me and just kind of played with me, and it was just a long ride home that day.

[Daniel Cormier]

That's crazy. You know how you.

[Kamaru Usman]

You just get beat up. I'm staring out the window. I'm not looking at him. He driving, and I'm not looking at him. I'm staring out the window, trying not to make shit.

[Daniel Cormier]

Yeah.

[Kamaru Usman]

Yeah. I can't believe he did this to me.

[Daniel Cormier]

That's bad.

[Kamaru Usman]

That moment. Yeah, that moment almost broke me. But it wasn't until like, a year and a half later, I was sparring with one of our guys, Danilo Villefort, who was one of the Villafor really good. And we're sparring, and Danilo used to be a bully. When his sparring session, he would just bully somebody like us that weren't that great at Sissy. He bullied me, but it made me better. It made me tougher. One day, he was preparing for a fight, and he's going, he's going. He's going crazy. And I'm just. I could see the shots a little better. I could see him a little better. I could defend myself. I can block, and when I block it, it wouldn't hurt as bad. And I'm staying in there, staying in there, staying in there. And then maybe 10 seconds left, I throw a hook, left hook, and I don't feel anything, but I just throw it. Rounds over, and he goes over, and he comes. He comes back to me towards the end, and he goes. It was almost like he wasn't mad at me, but he was almost like, you almost knocked me out. I was like, what? He's like, yeah, you almost knocked me out with that left hook. Made me almost kind of, you know, And I just remember saying to my, he was like, kind of like telling me like, good job. I almost remember walking out of that practice going, oh, I'm ready, I am getting. Something is working here. And at that moment I was like, okay, maybe I can do something with this. Yeah. Yeah.

[Daniel Cormier]

And then you became a guy that was known for pace, pressure, cardio and mental and fight iq. When you're in that gym and you're taking those beatings and you're fighting these guys daily, all these high level guys, and you're just chipping away, taking stuff from them, what do you think was the hardest thing to develop and what took the longest? Because obviously the jiu jitsu comes right away. It's like too similar to wrestling. But what about everything else when you were like, looking back now, what do you think took the longest to develop?

[Kamaru Usman]

I wouldn't say. Yeah, the jiu jitsu came relatively because we were grapplers at heart as wrestlers. Grapplers hard, obviously took time to learn the traps and the little tricks that they would set you up with. But I would, for me, I would say the kickboxing because the balance is different. Of course, as a wrestler, we're over our front leg and, and competing. And then you go into now trying to learn boxing to where you're sitting back and, and throwing just hands to where now as kickboxer, you have to be balanced to be able to lift that leg to defend.

[Daniel Cormier]

Yes, yes.

[Kamaru Usman]

And not only lift that leg, be ready to drop at the dot, at the drop of a dime to defend the shot and return some and return some or change levels and get under someone. So the kickboxing took time and obviously the sparring too, because, yeah, wrestling, we're strong, we strong legs. But if someone is tapping that leg with that outside leg, after a while that starts to get tender. And I would say there was a lot of times where I would go home. Oh, my God.

[Daniel Cormier]

Did you ever, did you ever get like cut, knocked out anything in the training room? Because I did. Kane. Kane. Kane broke my nose. Jason Mayhem Miller cut me with a bad knee to the eye. I never got knocked out, but I did get hurt in practice before. Did you ever have any of that happen, especially in those earlier years of your career?

[Kamaru Usman]

I was stunned a couple times.

[Daniel Cormier]

Yeah.

[Kamaru Usman]

I do remember Thiago Silva hit me with A really good right hand that, you know, kind of cracks the neck and you get stunned a little bit. But then I've been dropped one time. Besides that, the head kick that we heard around the world. I, I was dropped one time ever my career. That was by Michael Johnson at practice. I, I had just fought. I fought and then I took like two weeks off and then I came back, you know, jumped right into sparring with the Michael Johnson.

[Daniel Cormier]

That's who at the time was so fast.

[Kamaru Usman]

So fast. And was three weeks away from a fight. He was in shape.

[Daniel Cormier]

Yeah.

[Kamaru Usman]

And Michael and I went a whole five minutes with him and Michael towards the end of sparring too. It's not great. Michael put it on me. Yeah, on me to where he sat me down. And it's funny. I have the video and of course Rashad has it in the archives. Don't, please make sure he reminds me.

[Daniel Cormier]

He probably ever get too out of line.

[Kamaru Usman]

Oh my God. I'm sure. I'm surprised the video hadn't come out yet. But he sits me down and I fall down. When I sit down, I fall, sit back. I fall down on my arm like.

[Commercial Announcer]

This.

[Kamaru Usman]

My arm out. But it just goes to show, even at that time and even to today's day how special Michael Johnson was. Because Michael was a such a great combination of speed and power for a little skinny guy like that. Or he'll put it on.

[Daniel Cormier]

He was, he was good. All right guys, today's show is brought to you by our new sponsor, Hard Rock Bet. Hard Rock Bet is a top rated sportsbook app. It might just take the belt from any other sportsbook app that you use. Once you open it up and you see it for yourself. And guys, if you haven't tried your first bet on Hard Rock Bet, there's still time for you to get 150 in bonus bets if you win. So place a $5 bet. If that bet hits you not only get your winnings, but you get $150 in bonus bets right away. Guys, today is a great day to try the Hard Rock Bet sports app. So it's not just a welcome offer. You can get bonus bets, you can get parlay insurance and other rewards. The rewards and the promos are non stop. So download the Hard Rock Bet app and make your first deposit today. Payable and bonus bets is not a cash offer. Offered by the Seminole Tribe of Florida in Florida, offered by Seminole hard Rock Digital LLC in all other states. You must be 21 or older and physically present in Arizona, Colorado, Florida, Illinois, Indiana, New Jersey, Ohio, Tennessee or Virginia to play. Terms and conditions apply. Concerned about gambling in Florida? Call 1-888-A-D M-I T-T in Indiana. If you are someone you know has a gambling problem and wants Help, call 1-800-9 with it. And if you have a gambling problem.

[Sophie Cunningham]

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[Podcast Advertiser]

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[Kamaru Usman]

Learn more at paypal.com payin4paypal inc.nmls910457 there's.

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[Sophie Cunningham]

I turned off news altogether.

[Podcast Advertiser]

I hate to say it, but I.

[Kamaru Usman]

Don'T trust much of anything.

[Commercial Announcer]

It's the rage bait.

[Sophie Cunningham]

It feels like it's trying to divide people.

[Daniel Cormier]

We got clear facts. Maybe we can calm down a little.

[Kamaru Usman]

NBC News brings you clear reporting. Let's meet at the facts. Let's move forward from there. NBC News reporting for America.

[Daniel Cormier]

We'll get into Rashad Evans a little later. But that's, that's your brother. Because if he wasn't, that would already have surfaced, of course. Right? If he wasn't your brother, people would have seen that video because people always in today, especially in today's world, clout chasing you, become the champion. That would have leaked at that moment. But obviously he cares about you too much. Kamara, is there a difference, is there a difference between Kamaru Usman, the hungry Kamaru Usman, and comfortable Kamaru Usman, Comfortable in the sense of I was the world champion, you made boatloads of money. You have essentially everything opposed to that kid that walked into that gym in South Florida. What's the difference?

[Kamaru Usman]

The difference is. Yeah, there's a difference. The difference is you're wise enough to know now that there is light at the end of the tunnel.

[Daniel Cormier]

Yeah.

[Kamaru Usman]

Because when you first come in, it's the fear of the unknown to where it's just like, I don't know what's going to happen here. So I'm blindly going, and I don't care about anything but this.

[Daniel Cormier]

But, but, but isn't that that naive, hungry, broke person? Exactly who you need to be at that moment to have that belief that at some point this thing. Because where did you live when you moved to Florida?

[Kamaru Usman]

That's true. That's you. You're absolutely right. But now I know that.

[Daniel Cormier]

Yeah. How do you keep them alive, though? With the comfort.

[Kamaru Usman]

Oh, because I can turn that back on. Because nothing is greater than what the goal that I've set my set up for myself. And so as long as I'm still willing to tirelessly Chase that. I think I'm okay.

[Daniel Cormier]

Yeah.

[Kamaru Usman]

Because when you, when you first come in. Yes. You're tireless. You want to chase it. Well, you don't know if it's going to work out. You don't know. You're. You're just like, man, I don't know if this training every day is doing anything. I still feel like I can't strike. I still feel like I'm not good at grappling jiu jitsu. I don't know. Like, I'm still broke.

[Daniel Cormier]

Yeah.

[Kamaru Usman]

You know, that's the hardest part. Yeah. But now I'm in a position to where I know with that consistent work, I can get there.

[Daniel Cormier]

Yeah.

[Kamaru Usman]

But it's just the moment I just, I, I. And I, like I said, I'm honest with myself. The moment I realize I'm not willing to turn that on, it's time. It's time.

[Daniel Cormier]

You can't tap into that guy no more. When I can't tap into that dude that I know I have to be to go and fight a Joaquin Buckley, I gotta walk away from this thing. That's gonna be a very hard day. A lot of people think they can do it. It's going to be a very hard day when you walk away. And it's not going to be just mma, though. It'll be. You'll be walking away from a lifetime of competition.

[Kamaru Usman]

You know that. That's interesting where you say that, dc, because I know I get emotional a little bit now after victories, but I'm going to give you the honest truth, and that's because I am. I am a very spiritual person. To where I understand that this chapter is going to be over at some point. So it's in turn, it's almost like me slowly mourning the loss of loss of. Not necessarily loss, but me leaving this chapter.

[Daniel Cormier]

It's a life.

[Kamaru Usman]

I'm slowly mourning that to where I understand each and every time I step out there now. It's a blessing and it's an opportunity, and I am ultimately grateful for that because let's be honest, I'm going to miss this. And you tell me, yeah. Don't you miss. Don't you miss it as.

[Daniel Cormier]

As I miss the competition?

[Kamaru Usman]

Exactly.

[Daniel Cormier]

Because it's all we. That's all I did. It's all we did our whole lives.

[Kamaru Usman]

But here's the thing. I know, as tough as it was and even more so for you, don't you miss that preparation?

[Daniel Cormier]

But that's what I miss.

[Kamaru Usman]

When nothing else matters but what you.

[Daniel Cormier]

Have coming up you missed. You missed the chase.

[Kamaru Usman]

Yes.

[Daniel Cormier]

And you miss the camaraderie that comes with the preparation. That's what you'll miss. But the reality is, like, you have big things down the line, and that'll save you, especially if you can be a part of the show still like me. I don't really. I don't really have to miss all the fame and all that stuff. I think athletes struggle with that, but mourning alone.

[Kamaru Usman]

Yeah. If they don't have that, next. Yeah.

[Daniel Cormier]

Yeah. Mourning. A loss of a. Of a life that I once lived was difficult because from 15 to 41, I competed at the highest level of sport. So when that was gone, that was difficult. And you'll experience that, I promise you. And once you get through it, you'll be better for it. But it's something you got to kind of just kind of, like, let happen.

[Kamaru Usman]

And. And just to wrap up on that, there was like. All through life, I just. I've been so blessed to be around just greatness. Greatness all over. To. How lucky were we to where I. There was one time when I was young, younger, I think I just left high school and came back to. For freshman year in college, I think, and came back to wrestle around with, like, the group in Texas down there. And. And at this point, I started to grow my body a bit. Yeah, I was toned up. You know, that wrestling shape is different.

[Daniel Cormier]

Different.

[Kamaru Usman]

And someone made a comment because it was. We were, like, in a camp setting, and Kenny Monday was there, Right. And someone made a comment about my body. Kind of like, man, look how big and ripped or cut up that he was. And to kind of, like, make fun of Kenny, but just joking with him.

[Daniel Cormier]

Yeah.

[Kamaru Usman]

Fun, you know, fun show. And Kenny turns and says this and. And I don't know. He probably won't remember this, but it was just funny how they stuck with me. Kenny turned and said this. Man, do you know how tight I was at that age?

[Daniel Cormier]

Yeah.

[Kamaru Usman]

You know, and said that. Just funny. They were poking fun at each other, and they kind of laughed it off. And it's weird that that stuck with me. I don't know why.

[Daniel Cormier]

Because it was him recalling that time.

[Kamaru Usman]

Yes.

[Daniel Cormier]

He wouldn't live anymore.

[Kamaru Usman]

Yes. And Kenny was a guy that I studied once. I wanted to elevate myself in wrestling. Studied the Puma, how he moved and how he wrestled. And then seeing his. You know, of course. So I got back to see that, and then now I'm kind of in a position to. Where I'm like, man, someone might say that to Me one day.

[Daniel Cormier]

Yeah.

[Kamaru Usman]

And I might have to look back and go, man, do I miss that? Yeah.

[Daniel Cormier]

Yeah, you will. You know, one thing that I didn't know about you was I knew you were African. I didn't know you lived in Nigeria. Do you remember. Do you have any memories of that? Of the time there in Nigeria?

[Kamaru Usman]

Yeah, and it's so. It's so vivid because as a child, because you. You. You only recall, like, certain moments. Yeah, right. That stick with you. And I was just there enough to really engulf the culture in a way that it would never leave me.

[Daniel Cormier]

Yeah.

[Kamaru Usman]

It will never leave me. That's why I'm so connected to the place. I was gone for almost 20 years, and I was still. I still live and love to represent that place.

[Daniel Cormier]

Yeah, it's.

[Kamaru Usman]

It's something in our blood that we are just tied to that place. And so, yeah, I remember it. There was a lot of moments with my brothers, my older brother Cat, Dr. Cash Usman, and my. My younger brother. There's just these three little boys running around and just kind of causing mayhem.

[Daniel Cormier]

Yeah.

[Kamaru Usman]

Yeah, it was. It was really good times. It was fun. And I. I mean, we grew up. Humble beginnings. Yeah, we. We farmed. And not only we farmed, my mom had a little, like, convenience store to where we sold things, to where it was very, very humble beginnings. But I don't remember any moment when I was unhappy that.

[Daniel Cormier]

That's. That's the craziest thing. I grew up, like, very poor, and I just felt like I was always so loved.

[Kamaru Usman]

Right.

[Daniel Cormier]

That it didn't really matter what we had, because you felt love. So it's like you don't feel like you're missing as much. Obviously, there are moments where you wish you had what another kid had because the people around you that mattered so much, loved you so much. It didn't really matter. But then you guys moved to the United States, and do you remember why you guys moved to United States? Have you ever asked your parents why you guys moved there?

[Kamaru Usman]

Of course. I mean, it's one of the main reasons why every immigrant really kind of immigrates to a certain area or place for opportunity.

[Daniel Cormier]

And.

[Kamaru Usman]

And in Nigeria, where you're so populated like that and you live in a. A country of. Of just brilliant minds. I mean, if you look right now, you look at Harvard, there's a percentage that are Nigerians. Look at Columbia, you look at Yale, you look at all these, The Ivy Leagues, you look at the doctors, some of the top doctors in the States in. In the uk all over the world, there's a Nigerian in any mix. We come from a culture of people who are ambitious and who are relentless in their pursuit of excellence. And with that being said, it's just so many people running the exact same race to where there's not enough. There's only 10 spots over there. Yeah, but you've got a million people running that race for that 10 spot.

[Daniel Cormier]

Yeah.

[Kamaru Usman]

And, you know, my father was in the military, and he found and got an opportunity here to be in the military here, and he came here and became a pharmacist. And I think back then, there was this lottery program you could kind of. And we were a. Granted visas to come here. And so it was opportunity and. Yes, and very lucky. And my father dared to. To take that chance, going to a foreign land and create an opportunity for his family, which is forever. I will be grateful for forever.

[Daniel Cormier]

Was there anything better than giving the belt to your dad? For me, it was, like, so amazing. Like, when my dad. It used to feel my heart. Obviously, my father's not here anymore, but it would fill my heart to give my dad the belt. And he could go back and say, my son's a world champion. He can go to Lafayette. And all the people that. Your dad cuts grass at, the city of Lafayette, he go to all the people and go, well, my son's a world champion.

[Kamaru Usman]

Right.

[Daniel Cormier]

That filled me with so much pride. Was there anything that, like, felt better to you than handing your mom or your dad that belt?

[Kamaru Usman]

Like, yeah. That's very interesting. And we can spend so much time talking about this. I, obviously, in college, I took this philosophy class, and in philosophy, they. We had to read the Pursuit of Happiness by, you know, or Aristotle, one of them. And we had to kind of come up with that in our head. And during that. That whole term of going through that essay and studying this, I came up with my pursuit of happiness. And in my pursuit of happiness, I believe there's. There's three avenues in your pursuit of happiness. And I call it flooring someone. And when I. What I mean by that is you put them in such a state to where that state money can't buy that state nothing can buy what they feel. The happiness. The happiness that you create inside them to where you make someone cry uncontrollably for you to floor your father. To where he couldn't buy the fact that his son is a world champion. Yes. He couldn't buy the fact that now you are able to do something for him or just give him the. Give him that stance, that station in life to say, my son made it. Yeah, I did something right.

[Daniel Cormier]

It is a reflection of them.

[Kamaru Usman]

It's a reflection of them because it's the one thing in life that you cannot buy, they cannot really control. Is that your future? And so that's the first avenue is you flooring your parents, you giving them that level of happiness to where you know what it is when you just see them look at you, there's a smile that comes on their face and it's a weird smile.

[Daniel Cormier]

Yes, it is.

[Kamaru Usman]

You don't see. You've never seen that usually. And you just see that moment and inside you just know, I've done it. I did that.

[Daniel Cormier]

You feel you're full of joy.

[Kamaru Usman]

You're full of joy. And then it's. The next level is when you show it to your kids, when you give it to them, where your kid go looks at you and goes, holy shit, that's my dad.

[Daniel Cormier]

Yes.

[Kamaru Usman]

When they're so damn proud. That's my dad. When your kid brags about you at school. My dad's a world champion. Yep, that moment. And then the third level is when they repay the favor. Because now it's the circle of life, which goes in turn with the pursuit of happiness. Now they give it to you, now they have to do it to their kids. And hopefully one day their kids give it to them. But at every one, the other party cannot control.

[Daniel Cormier]

Yeah.

[Kamaru Usman]

That is my pursuit of happiness. And the moment I was able to do that for my father, I mean, it's. Words can't describe that.

[Daniel Cormier]

Yeah, but what do you think the hardest part of moving to the United States was?

[Kamaru Usman]

Well, I think like most immigrant is. Is the simulation of. Really. Because I hate to say it, but this is just a country that. That requires you to excellence from you. Or at least it's going to ask of you excellence. This is the one. You come into this country, you better learn English.

[Daniel Cormier]

Yeah.

[Kamaru Usman]

Hey, you better learn English. We're not trying to learn that. Whatever language you're speaking, you better learn.

[Daniel Cormier]

That's the truth. I know and I know no foreign.

[Kamaru Usman]

Language to where you go. You go to Africa, you go to Nigeria. You go to some places. Oh, come in. Come in. You speak Chinese? Oh, come in. Well, yeah. We sign for you. We'll try to figure out whatever we'll.

[Daniel Cormier]

Find to make you feel comfortable. We'll leave you in the dust.

[Kamaru Usman]

Yes. What make you. You feel comfortable to where Here. It's like, you better learn that damn English. Yeah. If you don't learn that English. You better go back.

[Daniel Cormier]

Did you not speak English when you got here?

[Kamaru Usman]

I spoke English, obviously, because Nigeria is part of that West African that was kind of colonized by the British. So we spoke UK English. But I'm a child. I'm still learning here the actual proper English. Where you come to the States, it's different.

[Daniel Cormier]

Yeah.

[Kamaru Usman]

In uk, the trash is dust bin. So when. So you come here and say, throw.

[Daniel Cormier]

That in the trash.

[Kamaru Usman]

Like, what? Where? Or open the trunk of the car, go to the boot. So you learn these things. So now having to come here and then learn that again, it's. And then obviously I was in this class called esl, which ESL was kind of in school of Kids are cruel. Kids made it seem like that's the. You're in the special class because you.

[Daniel Cormier]

Were trying to learn a new language.

[Kamaru Usman]

Yes. Because you need yourself. Which really meant English as a second language to try to teach you, help you assimilate to English. Kids. Kids are cruel. Kids made fun of. Oh, you and that short butt. You. You.

[Daniel Cormier]

Yeah.

[Kamaru Usman]

Special class.

[Daniel Cormier]

I would have been one of those morons doing that, too.

[Kamaru Usman]

You definitely was. I could tell you were one of them.

[Daniel Cormier]

Stupid. Don't even know what it means. There's just three letters that I don't recognize, so I'll make it funny.

[Kamaru Usman]

Yeah, you.

[Daniel Cormier]

And it's so stupid.

[Kamaru Usman]

Yeah. So, yeah, just that simulation was really, really tough for. For me. But, yeah, we're kids. You don't understand that. You don't know that. You're just rolling with the punches each and every day. As long as you wake up, you got food in your belly and you got loved ones around you, you don't really care about any of that.

[Daniel Cormier]

You know, one time you and I were having a conversation. We talk a lot. Off. Off Cameron. Out of the public eye. And I remember when Ben, and even me one time, we're at UFC tonight, and I called you Marty, right? And I asked you, why do you not want to be called that anymore? When the whole time we had. And you gave me this great answer. You said, because it's not my name. And I said, well, why did you accept? To me, it was so simple. And you said, I. I've grown into my name. I love my name. Somebody called me this when I was a young kid, and I thought I was supposed to just accept it. Can you kind of explain that to people? Because no one. People didn't quite understand, but then the moment you told me, I was like, fuck. I get. Makes sense. And it makes me it made me look at you like, fuck, man. Take that strong African name and wear it proudly.

[Kamaru Usman]

Right? No, it's. That's a great question because. And it's funny because my. My coach who started it, why saw me. He was. He was at my last fight. I brought him out to my last fight, and he was apologizing to me, and I just felt. I felt bad, in a sense, because of how big this had gotten. Thanks to you, Ben Askrent.

[Daniel Cormier]

Yeah. Because of Ben.

[Kamaru Usman]

Because of how big this had gotten to where he felt maybe he did something wrong. He didn't do anything wrong. You know, when you're. You're. You're a child, you're coming up in. In something. In some sport, you. Everyone has a nickname. You give everyone a nickname. And it started kind of with, you know, when you're in the study hall, you're in the group, they have to call you roll call, your name. And my name was actually on there in school. So he goes, cup. And I'm talking about. My coach was a military. A former marine, bus cut, no nonsense kind of guy. And he's going, aon Hill. Bo. Here, coach, come k. My. My name is Kamaru. Kamaru. Kamaru. Yeah. And so he goes, kamar Mar. Okay. I can't say. I'm not saying that really. Marty. Which he was just. It was just a joke. He's like, marty, I'm gonna call you Marty. I'm like, oh, that's me, Coach. I'm 5 foot 2, 103 pounds. And he's. I'm like, that's me, coach. He's like, I'm gonna call you Marty. That's cool. At that time, like I said, I want to simulate. You wanted to just be one of the guys.

[Daniel Cormier]

You want to be like. You want to be there and just not cause too much.

[Kamaru Usman]

Not cause too much ruckus. I'm not in a position yet where I want to stand out. You know, kids like to follow you, don't. We don't want to stand out from the pack because when you're a kid, you don't really understand how powerful that is.

[Daniel Cormier]

Yeah.

[Kamaru Usman]

And so I'm like, I just want to go with it. So I went with it. All right, Marty. But now, guess what? Now the team starts calling me Marty. So we all know, like, anything else, if you suck at something that you die off at that moment, no one remembers you that unless you're doing something goofy or crazy. I started to excel.

[Daniel Cormier]

Yeah.

[Kamaru Usman]

So when you start to excel, the name grows with you.

[Daniel Cormier]

Yeah.

[Kamaru Usman]

Now it's Marty here. Marty won that tournament. Marty's here. Marty's like, number one of the top kids in the state. Now. Now collegiate coaches are calling, hey, this kid Kamaru. We're trying to. Oh, you mean Marty. So my coach says that just unknowingly, he's. Oh, yeah, you. You mean Marty. So now college coaches hear that. Now they. Oh, Marty. Now they call me that. Now I go to college. And that's. They're calling me that already. And I'm already in here to where that name grows with me. And then it would have died off in college had I sucked, but I continue to excel. I won a national championship. I came off the mat. The. The teleprompter at the bottom during the interviews, it said Marty Usman, which is crazy now that I look at it. Which is crazy to me.

[Daniel Cormier]

Yeah.

[Kamaru Usman]

Because that's not my name.

[Daniel Cormier]

Yeah.

[Kamaru Usman]

But at that time, that's what it was. And I will. I will have to admit this right now. I've never said this before. Doing a lot of reflection on that. I think part of that was being a little ashamed to be kind of labeled differently or called because my name was different.

[Daniel Cormier]

Yeah.

[Kamaru Usman]

Than Aaron or Chris or Jason or my name was different. So for them to say the mouthful of my name, I think I was a little maybe ashamed of that. So I just went with the Marty thing, even though it wasn't that big of a deal, which I knew, but.

[Daniel Cormier]

It actually is kind of.

[Kamaru Usman]

It is. So once I got into a position now to where not only am I representing myself or trying to do this sport now I'm representing my name. My father. Yeah. Representing his lineage and his father and everyone. The name that they gave me, like, no, I have to represent that. I'm a grown man now. I'm not a child. And so. And Ben, listen. No, I. You know, I. I'm good with everything now. But with Ben, it was. When Ben came in, he tried to kind of use it as a joke, because Ben came, and Ben came in hot.

[Daniel Cormier]

Hot. He wanted hot.

[Kamaru Usman]

And Ben was just doing everything possible.

[Daniel Cormier]

To try to get the biggest fights.

[Kamaru Usman]

To get the biggest fights, which I understand. And so when he came in, it was like, first of all, now I got this chip on my shoulder because.

[Daniel Cormier]

He was a better wrestler.

[Kamaru Usman]

He was a better wrestler. Accolades wise. Oh, not even close. I started wrestling my sophomore year in high school, and Ben had one. Ben who probably won more titles as a kid than I had ever won combined. And so now he starts saying that. And not only saying. He's kind of saying it in a condescending way kind of to poke fun. So I'm like, well, you don't really know me.

[Daniel Cormier]

You don't know me.

[Kamaru Usman]

You don't know me like that, so you can't say that. And plus, that is no longer my name. I'm not, I'm not a wrestler, a kid in high school anymore. I'm a grown man. Hey, address me properly. And then he kind of ran with it and made fun with it, which was great. I, I, I mean, I I wish we would have got a chance to, to fight. Because that was another big fight. Yeah, because now hindsight looking back, you won every big fight. You want to fight every big fight as possible.

[Sophie Cunningham]

This is Sophie Cunningham from Show Me Something. Do you know the symptoms of moderate to severe obstructive sleep apnea, or osa, in adults with obesity? They may be happening to you without you knowing. If anyone has ever said you snore loudly, or if you spend your days fighting off excessive tiredness, irritability and concentration issues, it may be due to osa. OSA is a serious condition where your airway partially or completely collapses during sleep, which may cause breathing interruptions and oxygen deprivation. Learn more at don't sleep on osa.com this information is provided by Lily, a medicine company.

[Podcast Advertiser]

This podcast is sponsored by PayPal. All right, let's talk holiday shopping. From now through December 8th, you can get 20% cash back when you pay in four with PayPal. No fees, no interest. This limited time offer is perfect for the Black Friday and Cyber Monday deals you've been eyeing. Save the offer in the app right now. So whether it's a must have merch or for that signed jersey you've been eyeing, PayPal helps you make the most of your money this holiday. Expires December 8th. See paypal.com promoterms subject to approval.

[Kamaru Usman]

Learn more at paypal.com payin4paypal inc.nmls910457 tired.

[Commercial Announcer]

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[Sophie Cunningham]

I turned off news altogether.

[Podcast Advertiser]

I hate to say it, but I.

[Kamaru Usman]

Don'T trust much of anything.

[Commercial Announcer]

It's the rage bait.

[Sophie Cunningham]

It feels like it's trying to divide people.

[Podcast Advertiser]

We got clear facts.

[Daniel Cormier]

Maybe we can calm down a little.

[Kamaru Usman]

NBC News brings you clear reporting. Let's meet at the facts. Let's move forward from there. NBC News, reporting for America.

[Daniel Cormier]

Do you think that you grew into your name or grew into yourself as a person?

[Kamaru Usman]

I grew into myself as a person. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Because if I'm not who I am as a person, then what. What kind of representation are you doing to that name?

[Daniel Cormier]

Yeah, absolutely. You. You got hurt in football and it almost ended everything for you. Was that in high school? You just. Were you playing like, what happened?

[Kamaru Usman]

High school? But it's like I said, freshman year I was five foot two.

[Daniel Cormier]

Yeah.

[Kamaru Usman]

103 pounds. Texas football.

[Daniel Cormier]

It's big time football. It's big time football down there, bro.

[Kamaru Usman]

High school, 103 pounds. Texas football. Yeah.

[Daniel Cormier]

What were you doing?

[Kamaru Usman]

I. I was a tailback. Boom.

[Daniel Cormier]

What were you doing out there?

[Kamaru Usman]

I got, I got a chance to run the ball. Boom. Hit. It was like a 43 cutback. Boom. Gone. Probably got like 15, 20 yards. Now I'm like, oh, there was a big hole right there. Oh, yeah, I like that. They call another play, but this time to the other side. But I'm like, that hole was open last time.

[Daniel Cormier]

You went back, cut it, boom.

[Kamaru Usman]

Went back to the hole. I got hit so hard. And I'm five foot, 203 pounds. I haven't hit puberty yet. So I'm soft. I'm beyond. I'm soft at this point. I mean, I used to jam my fingers trying to catch a football, all these things. And I get smacked so hard, I'm on my back just like, screaming every curse word I I could think of. And the assistant football coach was the assistant wrestling coach, John Mance. And he was kind of trying to. Been poking at me, hey, why don't you come try wrestling? Because, you know, in high school, you. You want to recruit those little kids, because wrestling, we know that those little guys have an opportunity to excel at a sport that it's not just football and basketball, because in Texas, football, basketball, and track, those are key.

[Daniel Cormier]

Yeah.

[Kamaru Usman]

So it's like, you want to recruit that man. So he was kind of. He saw that I kind of had some athletic ability, and he was asking me to come in, but I'd never done wrestling. So I'm like, ah, no. But after taking this hit, I said, you know what? It's about time to find something else.

[Daniel Cormier]

You never played football again?

[Kamaru Usman]

Never play football again. The next year, I told you, sophomore year, I signed up for wrestling. I went straight into it, the study hall. I just. I started to just go into wrestling.

[Daniel Cormier]

Yeah.

[Kamaru Usman]

Yeah.

[Daniel Cormier]

Did you think it was over? Like. Like, how badly were you?

[Kamaru Usman]

Oh, it wasn't bad. I was soft at that point. I'm just back there. Ah, I think I probably lived for like a week after that.

[Daniel Cormier]

Oh, my God. So ridiculous. You. You went from being a guy that pursued something to building one of the greatest legacies in the welterweight division. I have seen on multiple occasions this week, people say you are the greatest welterweight champion of all time and not the great George St. Pierre. I am not saying that. I'm just saying that I have heard that this week as we have a bunch of welterweights fighting up in the next. A very upcoming future. Right, but you're on this win streak, right? Do you recall a time where you go, this is special. I can tell that I'm building something very special?

[Kamaru Usman]

No, I tried. I tried very hard not to do that.

[Daniel Cormier]

Why?

[Kamaru Usman]

Because I. I watched some of the greats. I studied some of the grades. And, and then while you're doing that, they, they try not to, because you have to stay locked in present. You have to stay present. And by watching them and kind of studying them, it took the opportunity away from me to really sit back and go, oh, man, let me smell the roses. No, for me, was what was next? What was next? Because I found the satisfaction in the chase, in the chase of the next thing, the next thing, and the next thing. And so sitting there and going, oh, man, you know, this is great. I'm great. I've done this. This is great. I couldn't, I couldn't do that. I was just like, okay, what's next? I remember the last time I thought about it was 5 and 1, trying to get into the UFC. Really? And they were saying, ah, well, yeah, if we spot opens up, we'll give you a call. And then obviously the Ultimate Fighter came about. But I just remember that was the last time I was like, man, five and one I should do. But then I would, I would always compare to Rashad because I had an example of right there, the right way to do it. And I remember I went through his. I think Rashad Evans actually had a 15 fight win streak. We can check that. Yeah, we can check that.

[Daniel Cormier]

Yeah.

[Kamaru Usman]

One point. Rashad was on a 15 fight win stream. And I just remember looking, I'm like, damn, it's just, win, win, win, win, win, win, win. Man, if I'm ever so lucky, I, I hope I'm blessed with this one day to be able to go on this run. But I. All I could think about, I was five and one and then I was just the next one. Boom, the next one. I need the next one. I need the next one. I never really stopped to go, man, I'm. I'm doing well. Until before the last fight, where every interview, everyone's going, hey, you're about to tie this.

[Daniel Cormier]

Break this record. Yeah, break this record.

[Kamaru Usman]

You're about to do this. How do you feel about this? I'm like, well, I never really thought about it, but now that shit's in my head now. Yeah, I'm thinking about it until it didn't happen, but, yeah, I try not to ever really dwell on it. But now in the position I'm in, I'm looking back and going, man, not only am I going to miss that chapter once it's done, I need to kind of appreciate it a little bit before it's gone.

[Daniel Cormier]

Do you feel like there's a part of your MMA journey that is a Bit overlooked. Like, maybe it's the not getting the right opponents at the right time, the slow burn to finally getting the title opportunity. Do you think any part of what you did gets a bit overlooked and you wish that it was appreciated a little more?

[Kamaru Usman]

No, because where I'm at right now, I'm blessed to even look back. And like I said, I'm spiritual too. I know everything happens for a reason. And so being underappreciated early on built it gave me that chip on my shoulder to. To do something spectacular enough to have the fans respect you in a certain way. And so I wouldn't, I wouldn't go back and change anything. I don't think anything really was overlooked. Yes, I, at the time, I hated, you know, even that comment when Dana thought I was saying, oh, I came in 30, you know, effort and being kind of, you know, because as wrestlers, when we come in, we want to take guys down. That's the tool we. And so coming in and doing that to guys, I really built that grappling aspect of myself. And yeah, it probably wasn't the most fan friendly style at first, but it gave me the foundation to grow into standing and striking.

[Daniel Cormier]

And that's your story, right? That's a part of your story that I think we as MMA fans sometimes don't understand. Do you think, like, overall, like, as you look back now, that people understand Kamaru Usman and understand what he needed to be in order to be who he is today, or do you think it's still a little bit misinterpreted?

[Kamaru Usman]

It's still a little bit misinterpreted, but. But I say the majority that know me, they know what to expect from me. They know I can stand and bang and bang if we need to, but they also know that I can grapple to the point where in this fight, I can't tell you how much I was getting from fans going, man, take him down. You could take him now, bro. You gotta take him down. Take him down. Don't even play that. Fans who appreciated the fact that I have that tool to take someone down, control them down there and land some damage on them. I was hearing, I couldn't believe I was hearing fans say that to me, bro, you could take him down, bro. You take him down, broccoli. Yes, they were. Fans were excited to see me take him down, completely shut him down and control him and land damage down there, which was crazy to me because I grew up hearing, bro, you're so boring. When I was 30, 20, 27, I was 30, 25, 30, 26 guys. I think my first five or six fights, there wasn't one fight I didn't get a 10, eight round.

[Daniel Cormier]

Yeah.

[Kamaru Usman]

And fans would.

[Daniel Cormier]

They don't want to see the wrestling.

[Kamaru Usman]

Yes. To where now? I mean, I'm in a position to where they're going, man. You got to take him now. You control them down there, man. Yo, your wrestling is great. You got to use that. I'm like, damn, I know y' all like wrestling like this.

[Daniel Cormier]

It's because you've already shown that you're willing to do that. You did get on that long wind streak, but then it famously ended in one of the most dramatic ways that I think anyone has ever seen in a fight. You're fighting Leon Edwards in Utah. You're winning the fight, right? He might have won the first round, but then the next three rounds, you dominate. It's very close to the end, John Enigma murmur, like, says, this is not the cloth by which he is cut. And then the head kick. Do you remember any? Like, do you remember anything? Because, I mean, like, seriously, because it was. It was a. It was a clean knockout. Right. Can you go back now and recall the moments after? Or are you still missing.

[Kamaru Usman]

No, you Those memories?

[Daniel Cormier]

Because I still don't have those memories from Jones knock me out.

[Kamaru Usman]

Yeah. No, you can't. It's like lost in time. It's when your computer shuts down. Boom. And then reboots right away. Well, it reboots the time from when it shut down to when it rebooted the computer. Got no new information.

[Daniel Cormier]

Have you tried to try to recall it? Have you.

[Kamaru Usman]

When you watch it, you feel like you can recall that, but deep on inside, you know you can.

[Daniel Cormier]

But like, when you watch, right, the fight and you watch yourself leaving the.

[Kamaru Usman]

Octagon, I don't remember none of that.

[Daniel Cormier]

See, I saw myself crying one time walking back to the back. I was like, when did that happen? That's not funny. It's not funny, dude. I like, I just. I'm like, when did that happen?

[Kamaru Usman]

Right.

[Daniel Cormier]

When do you remember coming like it. The lights coming back on?

[Kamaru Usman]

I was actually talking about this yesterday. So crazy. Cuz that it happens. I get. I'm sitting up on the stool. Obviously the coaches are going to be there with you and, you know, we're going to ask the famous question, what happened? What happened? What he hit me with? What he hit me with, you know, And I didn't realize I had asked it multiple times.

[Daniel Cormier]

I asked that shit 10 times.

[Kamaru Usman]

I didn't Realize I had asked it multiple times, but Trevor obviously told me later. So we get done, I stand there, they announce him as the winner. I even dap him up. And I walk out of there, right autopilot. I walk out, walk. I'm dapping up fans on the way out. All right, I'll get them next time. Walk out all the way to the back. See family. Cut the gloves off me. I'm in the tent. I'm okay. I'm there. See family. That transition probably was 15, maybe 20 minutes. Get done with family. And the UFC's like, I said, I'm okay. I'm fine. They're like, yeah, just. Let's just go to the hospital just to scan and make sure you're. Everything's fine. I said, okay, it's just precaution. I get an ambulance, I hug my family, and then we're good. So I get an ambulance. I'm going towards. I'm going to the hospital, to me and my manager, Ali. Ali's in a ambulance with me. They're asking, of course, the parent and the paramedic back there, they're going to ask their questions. So she's asking me questions, and I'm answering questions. And then she asked me this one question.

[Sophie Cunningham]

Question.

[Kamaru Usman]

Do you. Not only. She asked me the question. I think she asked me the question twice. She goes in a row. Boom. First time, do you know where you're at? I didn't really hear it, but I. I can. I know. It was the same question she asked me again. All right, so do you know what day it is? And me in. In. It's almost like a competition, competitive, you know, mode. I want to get the right answer out, not just get it out.

[Commercial Announcer]

Right.

[Kamaru Usman]

I want to get it out and give her more so she knows exactly that. Not only do I know the answer to that, but I'll give you more for extra credit. Do you know a date? Yeah, of course I know it's Saturday, August something. Do you? Yeah, in Salt Lake city, Utah. UFC 270.

[Daniel Cormier]

And you woke up. Shut the up.

[Kamaru Usman]

That's how you Woke up, UFC 270. Oh. If they're asking me question. No, shut up. Tomorrow.

[Daniel Cormier]

Really?

[Kamaru Usman]

That's. I'm like, no way. Ali. Ali's there on this phone with this look on his face. I just knew. I was like, no way. There's no way you broke down. There's no way. I. I mean, I. No, I took. I just, you know, because I'll let my brother's there, so we can just talk. And we're fully honest and transparent with one another. So I didn't really break down there, but I'm like, there's no way.

[Podcast Advertiser]

What.

[Kamaru Usman]

We get back in. We get to the. In the hospital and I'm sitting in the room and at this point, I'm shadow boxing, because I'm fine. Everything is good. I'm back now I'm shadow boxing. I'm just like, no. And of course, we just lit the world on fire with what just happened. And. And there's. He's going through Twitter and. And we're looking at things and someone had clipped out my. Because my daughter was there. Someone had clipped out my daughter. Like, you know, she's happy because for all she's ever known is daddy go out there and win and do everything. And my daughter watched his brutal head kick. She never seen her dad down like that. So she's crying like she screams hysterically and she's turning. Someone clipped that. Cut it, clipped it, screenshot it and posted it. And I saw that. And that's when it broke me.

[Daniel Cormier]

Yeah. I can only imagine. I saw a picture of my kids hugging me after I lost and that. It still breaks me today. I can't. I can't see it. When you look back on that time after that, obviously he won the third fight. Do you think that that did it shake you obviously losing those two fights and then going into that Buckley fight where you knew you're kind of up against it. Right. Like, I've lost two in a row to the same guy. He's not the champion anymore, but I know I can work my way back. But when you're walking in there, are you the same Kamaru Usman? Are you still same and carrying the same confidence against a young guy who's on a run like Buckley was?

[Kamaru Usman]

I'm still the same, but the confidence is hurting.

[Daniel Cormier]

Yeah.

[Kamaru Usman]

Because when you're. All you've ever known is successful and that's not what it's been lately. It's. It's a human trading. It messes with you and. But I know who I am on the inside because I built myself. Yeah. No one had to tell me. I. I go all the way back to junior year when I finally started to learn how to cut weight in high school a little bit. No one had to tell me, hey, you need to go for a run at night because it's going to help your cardio. Not only help your cardio, it's going to help you get that weight down. You know, no one had to tell Me that I just knew that's what you're supposed to do. Okay. I want to be better than everybody. I have to do a little more than everybody. No one had to really tell me that. And so with all of that, me knowing that I built myself to this juggernaut that I felt like in my head, and then now that that wasn't. It's been questioned, of course, it starts to mess with you a little bit. Am I still that guy? Am I still that guy? I know I put the work in. I know. You know, when. When, you know, my lady wanted me to just come. Come eat and relax with us. No, I'm not gonna eat that. You know what? I'm gonna go in the garage and get on this air dime.

[Daniel Cormier]

Yeah.

[Kamaru Usman]

I'm gonna get a little extra in. Yeah, I know I'm still that guy. But, yeah, you start to kind of question it, like, oh, man. And then, not only that, you know, ufc, you know, we love to do promo. We know the promos. They gonna show you the highlights of this dude knocking someone's head off.

[Daniel Cormier]

Yep.

[Kamaru Usman]

Over and over and over and over to where it starts to kind of drive that doubt even deeper and deeper and deeper. But I just. I just had to have solace in knowing that, hey, whatever happens, happens.

[Daniel Cormier]

Is that why you were so emotional after the win? Because it touched me. It made my heart flutter. When you were sitting at the press conference post fight and you kind of broke down, like, in terms of. It was almost like a relief.

[Kamaru Usman]

Dc, man, we know what it's like to be in a funk. Yeah. And like I said, I'm spiritual enough now to where. And even Volk said this, like, adversity is a blessing. It is. As much as. As much as we hate it, as much of an annoyance as it is for us. Adversity is a blessing. Having the ability to have things, whether positive or negative, happen to you, that's a blessing, because now you get to feel something. There's some people who can't feel any of that. Can you imagine being. Going their minds to where they just want. Want to feel the. The pain of being hit or pinched or punched. As weird as it sounds, they just want to feel that sensation.

[Daniel Cormier]

Yeah.

[Kamaru Usman]

But they can't feel that. And so adversity is a blessing to the point where I was just in that moment, just knowing that I had gone through this much adversity. And as a father, the biggest gift for me now is being able to. Because kids, of course kids, sometimes they can choose whether they listen to you or not. But they can't ignore the action.

[Daniel Cormier]

Yeah.

[Kamaru Usman]

They can't ignore what you did. They can't ignore the fact that, yes, you drop three and everyone's writing you off like, you can't win again.

[Daniel Cormier]

Yeah.

[Kamaru Usman]

They're like, you can't win again. Oh, he's washed. I remember hearing that. Oh, he's washed, he's washed. And I'm like, I know I'm this guy still. I still put the work in. I know I'm still not going to cut that corner. I still do the work. And so to go out there and have that actually happen and show that you, you can still show that you are that guy after so much time. Yeah, it was very, very emotional. And the fact that my daughter wasn't able to be there at that fight, too, because that was one of the lessons for you to see that. Yeah. The fact that she wasn't able to be there and feel it because it's a different electricity when you're there.

[Daniel Cormier]

She's the best, too.

[Kamaru Usman]

And yeah, all of that combination just personally, what I'd gone through just. It was a mountain. When that mountain just gets lifted, even if it's for five seconds or five minutes, that day it came off.

[Sophie Cunningham]

This is Sophie Cunningham from Show Me Something. Do you know the symptoms of moderate to severe obstructive sleep apnea, or osa, in adults with obesity? They may be happening to you without you knowing. If anyone has ever said you snored loudly, or if you spend your days fighting off excessive tiredness, irritability and concentration issues, it may be due to osa. OSA is a serious condition where your airway partially or completely collapses during sleep, which may cause breathing interruptions and oxygen deprivation. Learn more at. Don't sleep on OSA.com this information is provided by Lily, a medicine company.

[Podcast Advertiser]

This podcast is sponsored by PayPal. All right, let's talk holiday shopping. From now through December 8th, you can get 20% cash back when you pay in four with PayPal. No fees, no interest. This limited time offer is perfect for the Black Friday and Cyber Monday deals you've been eyeing. Save the offer in the app right now. So whether it's a must have merch or for that signed jersey you've been eyeing, PayPal helps you make the most of your money. This holiday expires December 8th. See paypal.com promoterms subject to approval.

[Kamaru Usman]

Learn more at paypal.com payin4paypal inc.nmls910457 Life gets messy.

[Commercial Announcer]

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[Sophie Cunningham]

I turned off news altogether.

[Podcast Advertiser]

I hate to say it, but I.

[Kamaru Usman]

Don'T trust much of anything.

[Commercial Announcer]

It's the rage bait.

[Sophie Cunningham]

It feels like it's trying to divide people.

[Daniel Cormier]

We got clear facts. Maybe we could calm down a little.

[Kamaru Usman]

NBC News brings you clear reporting. Let's meet at the Facts. Let's move forward from there. There NBC News reporting for America.

[Daniel Cormier]

So many people don't recognize the struggles that fighters and people in the public eye go through outside of what they see they can appreciate. Whenever they see a guy like you so strong on the outside, really open himself up in a way that most aren't used to seeing. You said kids sometimes don't listen. You did a lot of listening in your career, especially early. And you had two guys that really did make an impact on you. Rashad Evans, obviously we've spoken about him a little bit. And Anthony Johnson, yesterday I think you posted something saying, anthony, you're gone, but we will miss you forever. What did it mean for you to have two people in your life early in your career to mold you into the fighter and person you are that relate so closely to you strong men, athletes, wrestlers, black men to Go and do what they did to have Anthony and Rashad.

[Kamaru Usman]

Yeah, I mean, it was powerful. I mean, representation is serious. It's a real thing. It's really, really important because we can. Anyone can tell you this or tell you that, but until you see someone with your level of struggle, the same struggle like you, that looks you, that it lets you know, H1 man, maybe I can do this. Maybe I can be there one day. And so coming in, Rashad. Rashad was extremely. Not extreme. Rashad was instrumental in just getting me to switch over to the sport.

[Daniel Cormier]

He did that for so many of us.

[Kamaru Usman]

Yes. And. And not. And let's be honest, Rashad was one of the first of what we are now.

[Daniel Cormier]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Kamaru Usman]

You know what I'm talking.

[Daniel Cormier]

Yeah, I do. Yeah.

[Kamaru Usman]

He's one of the first to put it together. And so, and so with that, that example, watching it over and over and just, I. I might not say much, but I'm. I'm taking notes, mentally, I'm taking notes. I'm watching how he conducts himself. I'm watching how he does these interviews. I'm watching how he. He answers this question. I'm watching how he carries himself. I'm watching how he prepares himself. And I'm picking at that point, I'm picking what. I like that. I like that. I don't really like that so much. I'm gonna use that. I might use that. Rashad. And, and when the Black Zillions started, which is a team where I. I started with Anthony Johnson, of course, was there Michael Johnson also another guy that was very instrumental in my development because me and Michael Johnson probably have more rounds together than anyone. I mean, me and Michael. Michael was very, very instrumental because he was so fast. So fast and he had no fear. And so imagine a smaller guy just beating on me for. For almost two years to where I learned enough to where now I get to bully him. And so, yeah, Michael Johnson, very instrumental. Rashad Evans for the example that he set. And not just the example that he set. Rashad Evans told me, hey, I said, hey, man, I can't. I don't know if I can come to Florida because, you know, I don't know, I gotta get a place to live because I'm in the comforts of the Olympic Training Center. We ain't get no money like that. I mean, you, you were number one on team. You got a little check.

[Daniel Cormier]

But that was nothing like that. No, not like we to go get.

[Kamaru Usman]

Our own place and, and live and just train full time. And then I was getting presented with an offer somewhere else. I was like, man, don't worry about that. Just come. Come down. You can live with me now. Think about it. This is the first time I've ever been starstruck, seeing Rashad Evans.

[Daniel Cormier]

Yeah.

[Kamaru Usman]

To a superstar that you only get to see on television. And he's telling me, just come live with me. Am I in your house?

[Daniel Cormier]

Yeah, you, superstar.

[Kamaru Usman]

Come live with you. Yeah, come live with me. And we knew each other, but we didn't know each other that well.

[Daniel Cormier]

Yeah.

[Kamaru Usman]

But Rashad just had that heart to where he would just come live with me. Yeah. I moved to Florida. I was living. I lived with Rashad for, I think, two, maybe almost two and a half, three years. Wow. Living with Rashad, getting access to Michael Johnson. Anthony Rumble Johnson, which Anthony was. We had. It's such a special, weird relationship because Anthony don't talk much. Anthony didn't. It wasn't until later on in life where Anthony kind of. We were able to break those emotional barriers to where Anthony would show that. But before that, Anthony just is a guy that would show up in the gym five minutes before practice in jeans and a shirt and. And with his, like, tights already under on, take him off, put his gloves on, knock out a couple dudes at that practice, straight from there, put his jeans right back on without going to the shower, put his shirt on, and leave the gym. Oh, my God, that was Anthony Johnson. And so getting ready, being able to see him, and then watch him, too. Anthony came in, obviously, he was a big puncher, big guy, just excel in the sport, and spent a lot of time with our coach, Henry Hoof. Anthony really became who he was. Now, your fights with Anthony, I was at both of them. I watched the first one, but I fought at the second one in Buffalo, and I just. I remember Anthony, but obviously backstage watching, I'm like, well, man, Anthony, the first one, I'm like, Anthony really had a shot. He has a shot here. Because somehow I don't know how Anthony gets that left leg around the head, but somehow he does. You know, he's such a big, stiff guy, but that left leg wraps around your neck. And he just had unbelievable power. And so, unfortunately, he couldn't get it done against you. I'm like, oh, man. Okay. That guy's especially something else. And then I remember the second time you guys were gonna fight, I was in the UFC now, and I was on that card as well. And I just remember, you know, being there, watch you got. And that was in Buffalo, correct?

[Daniel Cormier]

Yep.

[Kamaru Usman]

Yes. So remember watching you guys finish. Finish the fight and him dropping that one as well. I think that was his last one for a while when he. I think he kind of walked away. But yeah, Anthony was special as well. And I'm just now looking back at everything, just blessed that I got to even nourish that relationship a little bit before he passed.

[Daniel Cormier]

When he passed away, how did that affect you? Because Anthony actually gave me something when he passed.

[Kamaru Usman]

He gave me a watch.

[Daniel Cormier]

It's the craziest thing that I was. I got a random call and they said, Anthony left you a watch.

[Kamaru Usman]

Yeah.

[Daniel Cormier]

How did that affect you losing? Because we saw this big, powerful man and had no idea what he was dealing with on the backhand.

[Kamaru Usman]

Yeah, it. He left me. He left me a necklace and yeah, it affected me a little bit. But like I, I said earlier, the one thing that I, I think it's kind of weird. I don't want to say weird about me, but it's a little different is it's almost like I almost pre mourned situations. It's like I like to be overly prepared.

[Daniel Cormier]

Yeah, you knew he was sick.

[Kamaru Usman]

So when we found out that he was sick, because remember, Anthony was great, great, great. Then, boom, Lost a bunch of weight, was going through something. Then when we found out he was sick, at this point, I started to kind of, like I said, prepare yourself, nourish that relationship a little bit more. Come on, come over to the house. Anthony want not only come over, like it meant something to me to invite Anthony Johnson over to my house because Anthony Johnson was already a UFC superstar when I, before I started fighting. Come to my house for him to see that. Hey, this little kid that came in the gym that didn't know how to do anything now is. Is has a house. Anthony came over, sat down with, shot pool and just kind of hung out and just talk. I wanted to get to. It was, what's going on? I mean, you. Yeah, I've been sick. The doctor said they might know this, they might know that, you know, so we spent a little bit of time together. We started to get a little closer, and then he just sick. And so part of that process, I started kind of this prepare. Prepare myself. It's a weird thing to say to even think, but just my mind is wired that way to where I kind of prepare myself a little bit and a little bit to where when I got the call, actually I was going to. I got a text. I was actually going to call him that day and say, hey, man, I'm Coming back in town. Remember we had talked about doing something. Hey, when you want to come over to the house, then I get the text, and I'm just like, oh, no.

[Daniel Cormier]

Yeah. No.

[Kamaru Usman]

Because how it doesn't make sense. Yeah. How someone like a specimen like that.

[Daniel Cormier]

Or just could just get destroyed by that.

[Kamaru Usman]

Just.

[Daniel Cormier]

He's gone in no time.

[Kamaru Usman]

He's gone. Yeah. That didn't make sense to me at that point, but it's. I almost kind of pre Prepared myself. Yeah. For that.

[Daniel Cormier]

We're all gonna miss Anthony forever. A few quick ones before I let you go, Kamaru. Two daughters now. Beyonce, everything. Life is just amazing in that regard. But you're very present. I think that is, like, the most amazing thing about you. Like, what does it mean to you to be so present? Because, like you said, tennis practice. I'm there, baby. I'm there. Changing diapers. Like, what does that mean to you to be so present?

[Kamaru Usman]

It means a lot because I got that from my first daughter. Her.

[Daniel Cormier]

She was everything you.

[Kamaru Usman]

Oh, yeah. I, I, I. I always knew I wanted to be a father. That was a big thing for me, but because naturally my father was there, my mother was there, and I just see the importance of that. It's so important to where I always wanted, that I wanted to be there. And so now with my first daughter, she kind of just being able to just take her to the gym each and every time with me and. And just have her sit there and watch me was. Was, man, it was amazing. I got to take her to the gym with me from, from. She was 1 to about 5 years old when he was. She was ready for kindergarten. We had a routine. We go to the gym after I get done, go straight to Toys R Us or Babies R Us. Back at the time. At that time, we'd spend about 30, 45 minutes there. I knew how to get in the car. I knew what song to play. Boom, she's out. She's out. Boom. I get home at this exact time, take her straight up to her bed, let her sleep there. She's out for two hours. She gets down. I have the food ready for her. We had a routine down.

[Daniel Cormier]

Yeah.

[Kamaru Usman]

And so I just. And then once she started to grow, because I used to say, when I was younger, I used to say, man, if I ever become a dad, I want to just miss the first two years. I want you to just hand me the kid when they can talk and do all these things. But then when I went through that process and you get to see them, never want to miss that you ever, you see them start to discover their hands.

[Daniel Cormier]

Yeah.

[Kamaru Usman]

And play with their hands. And you hear that first laugh, that real deep chuckle. And all of these things created such a tie and such a bond to where I'm like, oh no, you have to be present. Yeah. Now it's a, it's a tough part because part of getting that luxury is you have to work means you have to work. And I would say that's been the hardest thing is working and at the same time trying to kind of present that balance. Because I've heard some great men say if you want to give them everything, they have to understand Daddy's not going.

[Daniel Cormier]

To be, make everything.

[Kamaru Usman]

Yes.

[Daniel Cormier]

You're not going to be there for them.

[Kamaru Usman]

You're not going to be around.

[Podcast Advertiser]

That sucks.

[Kamaru Usman]

And, and so that it's that double edged sword because I can say now I don't want to, I, I don't want to leave. I want to be there for everything. But what if it comes an opportunity that they need me to provide for, but now I had, they have to pass it up because I didn't go do the work to provide for that. And they don't want to hear that. No, no one wants to hear that. Nobody else. It's just, this is an opportunity for me. Dad, can I take advantage of this? I'm sorry, you can't.

[Daniel Cormier]

Because I ain't got it.

[Kamaru Usman]

I ain't got it.

[Daniel Cormier]

Can't be like that though.

[Kamaru Usman]

And so, yeah, that's the hard part for me right now.

[Daniel Cormier]

And to ensure that it's podcasting, it's acting, it's fashion. You have so many different arms in the fire, man.

[Kamaru Usman]

Hey, wait, don't say it like that. Not like you, the future.

[Daniel Cormier]

But I'm saying you are one of the ones that have a future. Television, broadcasting, podcasting, acting, fashion. You have options to have built this life. Right. Knowing that like we said in the beginning, we're closer to the end than the beginning. When you look back with all these things, what do you tell Kamaru Usman that took a chance and went to Florida?

[Kamaru Usman]

Just worked. Stay consistent and trust the unknown. Because that's the biggest thing that we can't even fathom when you're in that situation. And I tell this quick story. I remember when there was a, I think a five, six month stint where I wasn't living with, at Rashad's house and I was living with Michael Johnson.

[Daniel Cormier]

And.

[Kamaru Usman]

I'm, I'm one and oh actually, yeah, I'm 1 0. I can get a fight because you know, at this point people just Google you. Oh, he's a wrestler now. Yeah. I can't want to fight him. Couldn't get a fight. Eight months and gone by, no money. I'm not under the roof of Rashad Evans where everything's taken care of.

[Daniel Cormier]

Yep.

[Kamaru Usman]

And, and so I just remember on the walk one day and I'm on the phone with my mom because I used to just do morning walks because that was our ritual at the training center, you know, world team walks. So I'm walking and I remember I'm on the phone with my mom, I'm like, I think I'm going to come home. I'm having to survive off of just eggs and bread and I might need to come home. And she's like, no, just stay the course. But at that moment, I couldn't fathom one day I would be sitting with, you know, two time hall of Fame, two time led champion, two division champion and hall of Fame Daniel Cormier, talking about where I am and my opportunities and what I've done in the sport. You can't fathom that. And so if I had any, and I tell these to fighters nowadays, it's just, hey, just work and trust that the work will get you there.

[Daniel Cormier]

Yeah.

[Kamaru Usman]

Because that's the only way you could quantify the sacrifice. The sacrifice and also the success level. Yeah. Is that consistent work?

[Daniel Cormier]

Come on, ask everybody that. Sit down with me. When it's all said and done, how do you want to be remembered?

[Kamaru Usman]

This is something I'm struggling with now, right now. And because I, I'm, you know, we elevate each time, we elevate to a certain point in life, to where you're exposed to so much more than what you think and to this layer that I'm in now. I'm exposed to different, a different set of people and, and just understanding their minds and how they, they are and, and it's tricky because I'm like, ah, I don't want to be like that. I don't want to be like that to where I do. I have met some people, but it's very few people that I've met to where I can say they did right by me. Yeah. And when I leave, when I'm done with the sport, my mission and my goal right now. And I'm not perfect, I'm not. But I want everyone that had an encounter, had to bump in with me, had a run in with me, did business or did anything with me, I want them to say he did right by me. Yeah, coaches, you know, trainers, managers, everyone to say he did right by me.

[Daniel Cormier]

Yeah, well, I tell you one thing, man, that's, that's the message I'll give people as we go forward. Is this Kamaru Usman did right? But I mean, guys, Kamaru Usman, as I said earlier, is one of the greatest fighters the UFC has ever seen. Obviously, as you get to know more about him, he's one of the most well spoken, well thought of, and thoughtful individuals. Like I said, father, champion, podcaster, actor, fashionista, he can do it all.

[Kamaru Usman]

Thank you.

[Daniel Cormier]

I thank you for joining me, guys. Until next time, like subscribe and tell your friends about my YouTube channel. And don't ever miss an episode of the Daniel Call Me a show. Until next time. Peace.

[Sophie Cunningham]

This is Sophie Cunningham from Show Me Something. Do you know the symptoms of moderate to severe obstructive sleep apnea, or osa, in adults with obesity? They may be happening to you without you knowing. If anyone has ever said you snored loudly, or if you spend your days fighting off excessive tiredness, irritability and concentration issues, it may be due to osa. OSA is a serious condition where your airway partially or completely collapses during sleep, which may cause breathing interruptions and oxygen deprivation. Learn more at don't sleep on OSA.com this information is provided by Lily, a medicine company.

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[Kamaru Usman]

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[Kamaru Usman]

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[Sophie Cunningham]

MemberFinera this is an iHeart podcast.