Daniel Cormier TV - Daniel Cormier & Ben Askren REACT to Jon Jones avoiding Tom Aspinall, Merab broken toe, O'Malley

Summary

Podcast Summary: The Herd with Colin Cowherd – Daniel Cormier TV Episode

Title: Daniel Cormier & Ben Askren REACT to Jon Jones avoiding Tom Aspinall, Merab’s Broken Toe, O’Malley
Release Date: May 29, 2025
Host/Guests: Daniel Cormier and Ben Askren
Platform: iHeartPodcasts and The Volume

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1. Introduction to the Episode

In this episode of The Herd with Colin Cowherd, hosts Daniel Cormier and Ben Askren delve deep into the latest happenings in the UFC heavyweight division. The primary focus revolves around Jon Jones potentially avoiding a fight with Tom Aspinall, concerns over Merab Dvalishvili’s recent injury, and the rising prominence of Sean O’Malley in the featherweight division.

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2. Merab Dvalishvili’s Injury and Its Implications

Discussion Points:

• Merab’s Broken Toe: Daniel brings up Merab's recent toe injury, highlighting its significance given Merab’s wrestling-heavy fighting style.
• Impact on Performance: They discuss how such injuries can hamper Merab’s ability to perform, especially in grappling and takedowns, which are crucial in his fights.

Notable Quotes:

• Daniel Cormier [07:00]: “A toe might seem like a small deal for a guy that doesn't kick that much, but it is a big deal for a guy that has to wrestle without a shoe.”
• Ben Askren [06:16]: “Merab is like a freaking honey badger. He doesn't give a shit. He just wants to bring the heat all the time.”

Insights:

• Strategic Vulnerabilities: Daniel emphasizes that even minor injuries can significantly impact a fighter’s performance, especially in a sport as physically demanding as MMA.
• Merab’s Resilience: Despite the injury, both fighters acknowledge Merab’s toughness and determination to compete at a high level.

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3. Sean O’Malley vs. Merab Dvalishvili: Pay-Per-View and Performance Concerns

Discussion Points:

• Pay-Per-View Implications: Daniel and Ben debate whether Sean O’Malley generates enough pay-per-view (PPV) revenue to justify a rematch with Merab.
• Merab’s Motivation: Ben expresses concern over Merab’s recent comments suggesting a lack of motivation to fight O’Malley again, which could influence the matchup dynamics.

Notable Quotes:

• Ben Askren [09:10]: “Merab just doesn't give a shit. He wants to get there and fight. There's not a lot of people like him left.”
• Daniel Cormier [09:55]: “If I knew we were going to sell 600,000 pay per views, I think maybe that is where that motivation comes from.”

Insights:

• Market Dynamics: The discussion highlights the intricate balance between fighter motivation and the business side of MMA, where PPV numbers can dictate main event status.
• Potential Match Outcome: They analyze the fighting styles, suggesting that O’Malley’s striking could pose significant challenges for Merab’s wrestling-centric approach.

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4. Jon Jones and Tom Aspinall: The Heavyweight Championship Stalemate

Discussion Points:

• Jones’ Avoidance: The hosts speculate on Jon Jones’ reluctance to fight Tom Aspinall, exploring reasons behind the UFC’s decision-making.
• Heavyweight Division Dynamics: Analyzes the awkward situation of having both a heavyweight champion and an interim champion actively defending the title.
• Future of Jon Jones: They ponder whether Jon Jones is preparing for retirement or if there are underlying issues hindering his return to the Octagon.

Notable Quotes:

• Daniel Cormier [13:59]: “There is a signature to strip Jon Jones. It's over 70,000.”
• Ben Askren [21:26]: “Having a heavyweight champion who won't defend his belt is kind of absurd.”

Insights:

• UFC Governance: The conversation sheds light on potential management strategies the UFC could employ to streamline title defenses and maintain fan engagement.
• Legacy and Motivation: They discuss Jon Jones’ legacy in the sport and whether his current actions align with his past reputation as one of the greatest fighters.

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5. Personal Anecdotes and Insights from Daniel and Ben

Discussion Points:

• Ben’s Bitcoin Convention: Ben shares his experiences attending a Bitcoin convention in Las Vegas, adding a personal touch to the episode.
• Daniel’s Hacking Concerns: Daniel recounts his encounters with potential hacking attempts, providing a glimpse into the personal challenges faced by public figures in the digital age.

Notable Quotes:

• Daniel Cormier [23:28]: “Someone walks over and goes, what? I swear to God, I was giving him all my address, my info...”
• Ben Askren [24:02]: “I keep my phone permanently on silent.”

Insights:

• Maintaining Privacy: The hosts discuss the importance of privacy and security for athletes, especially in an era where digital interactions are ubiquitous.
• Balancing Public and Private Lives: They highlight the challenges of balancing personal life with public personas, a common theme among professional fighters.

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6. Predictions and Future Outlook

Discussion Points:

• Heavyweight Future: Daniel and Ben predict that the current stalemate in the heavyweight division will continue until the UFC forces Jon Jones to make a definitive move.
• Tom Aspinall’s Rise: They express confidence in Tom Aspinall’s potential to become a dominant force in the heavyweight division once given the opportunity.
• O’Malley’s Trajectory: The hosts remain optimistic about Sean O’Malley’s chances against Merab, emphasizing his striking prowess and ability to capitalize early in fights.

Notable Quotes:

• Ben Askren [26:53]: “He [Jon Jones] drags it on for a while longer, which I'm not in favor of.”
• Daniel Cormier [32:17]: “He just never quite could figure out how to drive off his foot without the wrestling shoe.”

Insights:

• Strategic Moves Needed: The discussion underscores the necessity for strategic matchmaking in the UFC to ensure title defenses are both competitive and commercially viable.
• Emerging Talent: They emphasize the importance of promoting emerging talent like Tom Aspinall to maintain the sport’s dynamism and fan interest.

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7. Conclusion

Daniel Cormier and Ben Askren wrap up the episode by reiterating their thoughts on the current state of the heavyweight division and expressing their anticipation for upcoming fights. They emphasize the need for the UFC to address title defenses more effectively and commend the fighters who continue to push boundaries despite challenges.

Final Thoughts:

• Legacy vs. Current Performance: The hosts highlight the tension between honoring a fighter’s legacy and ensuring their current performance aligns with that legacy.
• Future Matchups: They conclude with excitement for future matchups that promise to deliver high-stakes action and keep fans engaged.

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Overall, this episode provides a comprehensive analysis of key developments in the UFC, offering listeners valuable insights into fighter motivations, organizational strategies, and the evolving landscape of mixed martial arts. The candid conversations between Daniel Cormier and Ben Askren ensure an engaging and informative listen for both avid fans and casual observers of the sport.

Transcript

[Daniel Cormier]

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[Unknown]

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[Daniel Cormier]

And it's going to take us to heal us.

[Dr. J]

It's Mental Health Awareness Month, and on a recent episode of just heal with Dr. J, the incomparable Taraji P. Henson stopped by to discuss how she's discovered peace on her journey.

[Daniel Cormier]

I never let that little girl inside of me die.

[Dr. J]

To hear this and more things on the journey of healing, you can listen to just heal with Dr. J from the Black Effect Podcast Network on the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcast at.

[Daniel Cormier]

And T Connecting changes everything.

[Dan Flores]

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[Daniel Cormier]

Listen to the American west with Dan Flores on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Dr. J]

The volume.

[Daniel Cormier]

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[Ben Askren]

It actually was, I mean, honestly, you know, for my wrestling coaches perspective, April and May are nuts. I mean, I was traveling so much and so we're. We got a few weekends where we're cooling off here. We had last weekend off. I'm actually going to the bitcoin convention in Vegas this week.

[Daniel Cormier]

That's. So we're rushing because you're going to a bitcoin convention.

[Ben Askren]

Oh my God. So amazing. Remember I. I was trying to convince you to buy bitcoin when it was like 35, I think. And then you want to send me cash so I would do it for you.

[Daniel Cormier]

Yes.

[Ben Askren]

That was wild, bro. I would not do that.

[Daniel Cormier]

Why? Why would you not do it?

[Ben Askren]

That's wild. That's wild.

[Daniel Cormier]

You could have hooked the bo. Don't tell me. Pay dividends now.

[Ben Askren]

Just, just send me, send me your IT guy. I know. Maybe it's Luis is buying bitcoin for you. I don't know who it is, but send me somebody.

[Daniel Cormier]

Ben.

[Ben Askren]

Cassandra.

[Daniel Cormier]

Maybe it's Ben. Yeah, she. She had yo, she bought bitcoin way back in the day, and she, bro, John Fitch once took a sponsorship, 10 grand in Bitcoin. And now it's just worth this insane amount of money.

[Ben Askren]

Oh.

[Daniel Cormier]

In 2009, he took Bitcoin as a sponsor, and no word of God did.

[Ben Askren]

He save it all. There's no way he saved it.

[Daniel Cormier]

Vast majority of it. He's done really well for himself.

[Ben Askren]

Yeah. Wow, that's impressive.

[Daniel Cormier]

Hey, Ben, so we got a couple things to talk about this morning.

[Ben Askren]

Yes.

[Daniel Cormier]

One, we're going to get into the heavyweight thing because, dude, there's like, a petition out there now, which is crazy. And then. But let's first start with the guy that's fighting next week in Newark, Marab the Wallace. Willie posted a picture the other day about his toe. Now, Luis, I'm not exactly sure, but this isn't the first time that Merab has shared an injury going into a fight. What do you make of it, Ben?

[Ben Askren]

Merab, he doesn't give a damn. He's. He's like, I, did you ever enjoy that video about the honey badger? You've seen that, right?

[Daniel Cormier]

Yes, I have.

[Ben Askren]

Oh, my gosh. That's like Marab. He's like a freaking honey badger. He doesn't give a shit. He just wants to bring the heat all the time. That's a little bit like Mitchell Messerbrink. Like, he. Mitchell could be like, hey, let's show up and do a nice light workout. And then all of a sudden, four minutes later, you're just brawling and you're like, what happened? And he, you know, like, that's what Rob does. He just goes hard all the time. I freaking love it.

[Daniel Cormier]

You know, Marab Dualis really said, keep your mouth shut, you know, like, well, no, no, no. Sorry. So people were talking about Merab and him showing the injury, and the vast majority of people think he should not say anything, right? But Rob told Michael Bisping and, hey, my toes. Good. He said if anything was wrong, he would cut it off. But he doesn't need to cut it off. It's good. It doesn't bother him. But the vast majority of people been, especially people like us who are talking about the fight, we see it like, this is not a good thing. Remember last time he had staff and he was showing off the staff. Everybody was concerned. Like, yo, this dude needs.

[Ben Askren]

He doesn't give a shit.

[Daniel Cormier]

At some point, right, you got to keep those injuries to yourself. I mean, really, you think so? I really do, man. I really believe you got to keep it to yourself, because here's the deal maybe, and you and I can really attest to this, a toe might seem like a small deal for a guy that doesn't kick that much, but it is a big deal for a guy that has to wrestle without a shoe. Imagine all the push off we generate when you punch and when you shoot as a wrestler. And that was one of my biggest things when I started Ben was I had a difficult time pushing off of my. My back foot to drive into shots. That's why I would just snatch legs and then pick them up, because I couldn't figure out that drive without the wrestling shoe.

[Ben Askren]

Well, honestly, staying high level in MMA is probably the way to go. So you probably were great there. You had that nice little jab. Perry, head outside, then pick him up and down. Yeah, you were great.

[Daniel Cormier]

But you want to hit the. But like, I wanted to be able to run a dude over, but I couldn't because I never quite could figure out how to drive off my foot.

[Ben Askren]

Sure.

[Daniel Cormier]

Without the shoe on because I was so used to wearing the wrestling shoe. But again, a lot of that gener that push is generated off of that pinky toe.

[Ben Askren]

Yes.

[Daniel Cormier]

You drive off of those feet. So from a Rob, this is a much bigger deal, Ben, then he's letting on. I'm sorry.

[Ben Askren]

Nah, Rob the. You know, I'll tell you, there was one comment I was worried about that he made. He made some comment. I'm going to get the exact words wrong, but something the effect of like, I'm not motivated or I'm bored by having to fight Sean o' Malley again. I don't think he deserves it. Essentially, that kind of like threw me off, like, because, you know, marab one of the things he's known for, he brings the heat every single time he shows up and he fights his ass off every single time. So that kind of worried me that he said that.

[Daniel Cormier]

So here's, here's why I think the problem is with these guys in Sean o' Malley, there's this idea that Sean o' Malley sells a boatload of pay per views. And yeah, Al Jermaine Sterling said publicly that that wasn't the case because he's got the numbers right. He said the numbers weren't what he expected them to be. Granted, that could be something way more than what most people are selling today, but we just don't know that number. Yeah, publicly he said something to the effect of it wasn't what I thought. If I knew it would have been that I wouldn't have Fought him that fast because you remember he returned.

[Ben Askren]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Daniel Cormier]

Quickly. Maybe Merab is now on the A side of the thing and going well, this isn't going to generate as much as I thought. So the risk is not as appealing as it may have been. If I knew we were going to sell 600,000 pay per views, I think maybe that is where that motivation comes from. And honestly, he won four out of five rounds in the first fight. So it doesn't really feel like, if I'm being honest, it doesn't feel like a fight that had to happen back right now.

[Ben Askren]

I, I mean I agree with that fully. But like we said, Marab, he just doesn't give a. He wants to get there and fight. There's not a lot of people like him left. So I mean I, I do truly appreciate someone who's willing to fight that frequently, Alex Pereira, but there's not really a ton of them.

[Daniel Cormier]

That warrior mentality is kind of lost in the world of mixed martial arts. Most guys don't fight that much. I was talking about Islam and, and Ilia and they're two of the most active guys since like in the last three years. And Ilia's fought six times or four times. And Ilia is on spot six. That's only an average of taking a.

[Ben Askren]

Little break recently, right? Hasn't he. Ilia's kind of had a little break since his last fight.

[Daniel Cormier]

Well, he knocked out Max and he knocked out Max in Abu Dhabi in October. Yeah. So it's been a little bit. But he still fights, right? He fights more frequently than most and he's fighting against International fight Week. But in terms of a rob, I think at times you keep that, those injuries to yourself, man. And he better be motivated because o' Malley, o' Malley has a lot to prove in this fight. But Ben, can he, can he. Do you think he could have improved the wrestling that much in that short period of time to stop the guy from taking him down over and over again?

[Ben Askren]

Well, it's going to be really hard for him to do that. But you know, the one thing I think about Sean o' Malley and this is why it's like I didn't like the fact that Marab said he was not super motivated. Was that, you know, in wrestling too, I don't need to beat you by points if I can pin you, right. I don't need to beat you in a five round fight if I can knock you out and shot. O' Malley is one of the few guys at that weight class that can put people down on a semi regular basis.

[Daniel Cormier]

Well, yeah. And Marab beat him by decision. Right. So, like, if you got to beat a guy by decision and it's 25 minutes every time, it can prove to be very difficult. So o' Malley does have a chance here against Merab because he can knock you out. And because, and also for o' Malley, it's about getting out ahead of you and putting damage on you early. Because if he puts damage on you early.

[Ben Askren]

Yes.

[Daniel Cormier]

Then you're less effective. Right. Once you start taking damage, it's harder to wrestle. You get more tired. While you might be a cardio machine, when you start taking that damage, it starts to take a toll on you.

[Ben Askren]

Yes.

[Daniel Cormier]

That ain't, that ain't fun.

[Ben Askren]

Especially if, you know, you can clip him, clip him in the eye or something and affect his vision. And now, yeah, you know, Merab is really heavy on the entries. He's great at entering into the strikes to the takedown. And so if his vision's affected, that can be really problematic, man. Who. Who did Sean start training with that? I was like, there's someone. I was like, oh, man, that's a. That's a really great move by Sean. I freaking blank on who it was right now.

[Daniel Cormier]

Hey, isn't it funny though? We're like, but if he can do this to me, Rob, or if he could do this to Rob is like Marab really has kind of separated himself to where it's like, yeah, something horribly wrong has to go, has to happen. Or most don't believe he's going to get beat because of his ability to just really drown you over the course of 25 minutes. I mean, that dude shot 50 times, man. 50 times in a fight against Peodan. That's crazy. That is crazy. Hey, so Jon Jones and Tom Aspinall has, as the world Turns this story. I saw a video the other day where Robert Whitaker said, no one cares anymore. Like, no one cares anymore. Let's just. Let's just be done with it.

[Ben Askren]

Yes.

[Daniel Cormier]

What it is.

[Ben Askren]

I agree.

[Daniel Cormier]

Forget those guys. But, but, but clearly, Ben, people care. There is a signature to strip Jon Jones.

[Ben Askren]

Did you sign it?

[Daniel Cormier]

It's over 70,000.

[Ben Askren]

You signed it, didn't you?

[Daniel Cormier]

I didn't.

[Ben Askren]

I'm gonna go. I'm gonna search the database.

[Daniel Cormier]

I didn't search it.

[Ben Askren]

I'm gonna find your email on there.

[Daniel Cormier]

Dude, that's 70, 000 signatures, man.

[Ben Askren]

It's annoying. It's so, so I'm not done with Tom Aspinall. Tom Aspinall clearly wants to fight. I don't know why the UFC just doesn't let him start knocking people down, right? Like, go to the next guy. Go to the next guy. And, hey, if John wants to come back and, you know, Dana's really big on negotiating power, so if you show John, hey, John, we're gonna move on. I'm gonna have Tom aspy this guy and then fight this guy, and. And he starts rolling, you know, John essentially has almost all of his power taken away. So I'm almost puzzled that Dana has not used that maneuver to this point.

[Daniel Cormier]

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[Unknown]

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[Daniel Cormier]

This podcast is sponsored by Total Wireless, the official wireless partner of ufc. So when you're streaming the fight or sharing those takedown highlights, you need a wireless provider that keeps you close to the action. With Total Wireless, you're covered by the Verizon 5G network, so you don't have to worry about your connection being knocked out at the biggest moments. It's not something you can usually say about a wireless provider, but Total Wireless really has your back. They're in your corner every second of the day, so you never miss a thing. They keep you covered for just $25 a month with four lines without sacrificing the essentials like speed. With Total you get unlimited 5G data so you can stay ahead of the action and keep up with every knockout. Total Wireless understands you can't afford surprise blows any more than your favorite fighter can. That's why the price is guaranteed for five years, taxes and fees included. The best fighters don't make it to the Octagon alone. They have all in support along the way, and it shouldn't be any different for you. So visit totalwireless.com or visit your local Total Wireless store to learn more about how Total Wireless can be in your corner. 5G access requires a 5G capable device and a 5G service area. Monthly rate on the Total Base 5G Unlimited plan for new subscribers applies only to the monthly rate for your plan. Additional terms apply. See website for details.

[Unknown]

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[Daniel Cormier]

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[Unknown]

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[Daniel Cormier]

I get right back there and it's bad. It's really, really really bad.

[Unknown]

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[Dan Flores]

The American west with Dan Flores is the latest show from the Meat Eater Podcast Network. Hosted by me, writer and historian Dan Flores and brought to you by Velvet Buck, this podcast looks at a West available nowhere else. Each episode I'll be diving into some of the lesser known histories of the West. I'll then be joined in conversation by guests such as Western historian Dr. Randall Williams and best selling author and Meat Eater founder Stephen Rinella.

[Ben Askren]

I'll correct my kids now and then where they'll say when cave people were here. And I'll say, it seems like the Ice Age people that were here didn't have a real affinity for caves.

[Dan Flores]

So join the students starting Tuesday, May 6, where we'll delve into stories of the west and come to understand how it helps inform the ways in which we experience the region today.

[Daniel Cormier]

Listen to the American west with Dan Flores on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. I think what is happening is this, right? First off, you can't just have a heavyweight champion in the. The, the interim champion is just defending the belt over and over again. That is absurd. Like, come on man, you can't have an interim champ. You can't have an interim champ defending the belt.

[Ben Askren]

Having a heavyweight champion who won't defend his belt's kind of absurd.

[Daniel Cormier]

Also have an interim champion that's defending the belt while the heavyweight champion isn't.

[Ben Askren]

Which one's more absurd that the interim.

[Daniel Cormier]

Champ will just be defending the belt? If the heavyweight champ.

[Ben Askren]

The heavyweight champ won't fight, just say, say he's injured or say he's sick. I don't know. Say something to say like, hey, we're gonna give him a little break. He wants to go play around in Thailand and roll. That looked like a great time. He jumped off the roof and he was rolling. There was one I saw where he like jumped off like into the pool you know, so it's like, he's having a great time. Cool. And listen, if Jon Jones wants to live his life, he's always welcome to go do that, right? But that's why I'm like, let's just move on that. And that greatly increases their negotiating power. So I just don't see why they haven't done it. It almost makes me think now I'm a conspiracy theorist, you know that?

[Daniel Cormier]

Yeah, you are bad. Bad.

[Ben Askren]

It makes me think John's got something on data.

[Daniel Cormier]

You're like, you spend way too much time on X. Oh, X, by the way.

[Ben Askren]

What?

[Daniel Cormier]

X, by the way, called me. X called my phone yesterday.

[Ben Askren]

So, okay, this is a hack hack, bro.

[Daniel Cormier]

I swear. So, like, I'm like, prime target for hacking because I'm old and, like, I'm like, giving communications. I told you the story about that time I was at a sponsor at Anderson Ordinary and they were hacking my bank account. And I was just giving all the info. Finally, because I was sponsored, the sponsor had a mic on me. The guy goes, I think DC is getting hacked right now. But a guy walks over and he goes, what? I swear to God, I was giving him all my address, my info, because I thought my bank account had gotten stolen because I saw an iPad bought in Miami. I was like, I haven't been to Miami. So my logic tells me. My logic tells me that that happened, bro. The. The audio guy starts cussing at the hacker.

[Ben Askren]

What about when your daughter was buying all that stuff and you didn't. You thought you were hacked there, too.

[Daniel Cormier]

So anyhow, yes. So X called me yesterday, but X called me a while ago, and finally I didn't answer it, said X. I denied it. They called back, hey, I'm with X and formerly Twitter, and we're calling because you're. I said, no. I go, there's no way. I go, you're trying to hack me. And I've gone through this before. So what I have done is I have notified the authorities to know that when this number calls, they're going to be calling you. And I'm like, just. And he hangs up the phone. He hangs up the phone on me really fast because I got their asses. So next time you try to hack dc, I got my phone tag to where you can get called by the police. I'm telling you, I'm getting them.

[Ben Askren]

Really?

[Daniel Cormier]

Your ex be trying to get it yoked? Yeah, it's a trick. I'll tell you how to do it. I've got some friends in high places that Got me now.

[Ben Askren]

So, man, was. I mean, I just get incessant Spam. I don't. I. I don't know about you. I don't answer my phone like, unless there's a number I know I'm not answering ever.

[Daniel Cormier]

Well, you never answer the phone. You don't answer the phone even when.

[Ben Askren]

I keep my phone permanently on silent. So, like, I would, obviously, if I saw you were calling, I would answer for you, but. Anyhow.

[Daniel Cormier]

Anyhow, back to John Jones. Anyhow, back to John Jones. Back to John Jones. Back to John.

[Ben Askren]

Did you see the video of him jumping into the pool in Thailand? He's having a great time. Him.

[Daniel Cormier]

L run the video of him jumping in the pool. Okay, Ben. So, yep, that was Jon Jones jumping into a pool. That was Jon Jones. So Jon Jones was jumping into a pool. Jon Jones was riding a motorcycle in Thailand. Jon Jones was. He says that he's living his best life, but does that mean it's over? Like, is fighting done for him? I don't know, because he said something about being happy, but he wouldn't say. He's retired and it's a weird place that he's at in his career right now.

[Ben Askren]

Aspinall's message yesterday, that was weird.

[Daniel Cormier]

Well, Aspinall was doing what he did. He.

[Ben Askren]

Yeah, he was saying heavyweight news coming up soon or something. And then later he clarified that that wasn't my. My, it's not my fight. So it's like, does that mean they're. They're stripping John and they're moving on? Like, what does that mean? Like, what else? Are you watching this?

[Daniel Cormier]

And when Jon Jones was in that pool, they're, like, dipping in his throat. Like, he just seem happy. He's smiling. I ain't never seen his house so big in my life. He's smiling, man. He's so happy. What's wrong? What is that?

[Ben Askren]

He's living his best life, man. Let him go. So just give Tom as well a damn fight. Tom Asmo's been sitting on the bench for, I don't know, 10 months now. We have other heavyweights. Volkov was recently speaking up about how he would like to be more active. We have plenty of other heavyweights who want to be plenty active. Just get these guys fights.

[Daniel Cormier]

But what if Tom Aspinal's beat? Then he just doesn't. John Jones fights, but then he just didn't deserve to fight Jones in the first place.

[Ben Askren]

Absolutely. I mean, think about, think about what happened with Michael Chandler. How long did he wait for? Freaking Connor. Conor, like, do not do that. So you have, man, you have a bunch of younger, fun heavyweights. Like, let's let these dudes start mixing it up.

[Daniel Cormier]

Yeah, I mean, I don't know, man. I just have a really bad taste when it comes to having a heavyweight champion and then having a interim champion defending the belt. You know what's crazy, super weird. John Jones and Tom Aspenol both have the same amount of title defenses. One heavyweight tail, defensive heavyweight title defenses. How is that possible? How does your interim champion have the same type amount of heavyweight title defenses as your active champion? It doesn't make sense.

[Ben Askren]

Yeah, I mean, that's, that's, that's kind of John's. I, I, I would love to be able to like, pour some truth serum down Jon Jones's throat and actually just like, talk to him and just, you know, get some real answers because he puts all these different, like, vibes out there. And I mean, I would have to. So just looking at his resume and people can argue this, obviously one of the greatest ever. Yes, he is, based on his, you have some of the drug stuff, which you could argue, but he is. But then it's like, it feels almost like the prophecy wasn't fulfilled. If you see what he was doing in, you know, we'll say what, 2011, I think is when first won the title or 12, somewhere in there. That's a long time ago. And he was crushing dudes. He was fighting a lot. And then it was like gap after gap after gap.

[Daniel Cormier]

He was young, though.

[Ben Askren]

He was young, absolutely. But there's probably, I would venture to guess, I'll look up his resume. I would venture, guess there's probably four gaps in Jon Jones resume that are a year plus between fights.

[Daniel Cormier]

Well, yeah, him and I had, there was like two years between our fights because of stuff. So we fought in 2015, then he got in trouble in 15, and then I won in May. Him and I were supposed to fight in. He fought back again a year after that against Ovens. So that was a year. And then we were supposed to fight at UFC 200 and he got in trouble there. So from 16 to 17, that was a year. And then after he fought me, he fought Gustafson like a while. After I won the belt back in 18, I won the belt back in 18. So I had that until the end of, I think he took the belt back in 18 when he beat Gus.

[Ben Askren]

And then he was actually super active there. He fought between December and December of 18 and February of 20, which is, that's, you know, 15 months. He fought four times. Yeah, that's three years off after that. Right. And then the next one's a year and a half off. And the one before that was a year and a half off. And so it's like, you know, you just see this resume and it's, it is absolutely one of the best ever. But then it's like, man, he's got to feel some remorse about, you know, missing so much time, you know, because he does talk, he talks about legacy probably more than just about anybody.

[Daniel Cormier]

So he's one of the best. Right. But like think about this, right? And Luis just kind of made this point because we've spoken about it a little bit. When John, when I fought John, I was 36 years old, he was 28. Then we fought again and I was 38 and he was 30. Right. When he fought Stipe, even now he's 37, Stipe's 41. All those guys were older guys. Right. I just feel, Ben.

[Ben Askren]

Yes.

[Daniel Cormier]

Like it's a little different. So when you walked out to the mat against Tyrone Lewis right out of College, you're a 22 year old kid, fresh face, not water.

[Ben Askren]

You're making me relive the glory days. I appreciate you so much.

[Daniel Cormier]

But Ben, think about this though, man.

[Ben Askren]

Yeah.

[Daniel Cormier]

When you walked out there against Jordan Burroughs and you saw a younger athlete.

[Ben Askren]

Like that was dumb. I don't know why I did that.

[Daniel Cormier]

But I'm just saying though, you're kind of going, oh, this might be a little bit different. Right? Especially when he's good.

[Ben Askren]

Yes.

[Daniel Cormier]

John now is a 38 year old man looking at a 30 year old man that's bigger, that's younger, that's fresher and going. It's flipped.

[Ben Askren]

Yes.

[Daniel Cormier]

You know, I don't see the wear and tear on their face anymore. On his face. I see the wear and tear on mine. Right. He saw with Stipe. Right. Stipe looks older. He looks like, you know, he just looked older from all that time away. Now he's looking down at a young man and it's like he's not scared, make no mistake about it. But I think it's enough to like question it. And you know what? I think a big worry might be for him because with Aspinall, he could potentially get knocked out, like legitimately knocked out and put on his back in out cold. And I just don't know that he wants to have that visual of him in the world.

[Ben Askren]

Yeah, yeah. I mean that's, yeah, that's probably, probably nailed it right on the head.

[Daniel Cormier]

Right There you did, like. Cause, I mean, he's knocked out a lot of guys and he's never had. Because I've seen myself get beat and I'm like, God, that's such a horrible visual. Every time.

[Ben Askren]

Yeah, I had to happen one time. I know I said to see it a few times.

[Daniel Cormier]

It sucks, but. So what do you think happens as we wrap?

[Ben Askren]

Oh, God, I think it dragged. My guess. My guess would be it drags on for a while longer, which I'm not in favor of.

[Daniel Cormier]

Do you think they strip him?

[Ben Askren]

I think they let him walk on his own, but I think he drags it on. And I. I don't. I don't really know what, you know, I said, I would love to pour some truth sermon and talk to him. Like, I don't know what his motivation is in dragging it on. It seems counterproductive to everybody involved rather than just saying, hey, man, I'm done. I had a great career. I'm the best. Like, I'm out of here at peace. I'm gonna go live my life. So I bet he drags it on. He vacates, and then Tom Aspinall moves on. And I would think based on the heavyweight picture, Tom Aspinall is going to have a relatively successful, you know, crazy things happen. But I would. I wouldn't be surprised to see if Tom Aspinall win, I don't know, three to five in a row more. Something like that.

[Daniel Cormier]

So my whole thing is this, and then I'll let you go on this. I don't know that he vacates without fighting him, because I think the visual, really, I think the lasting thought would be that he ran from him, and I don't know that his ego could handle that he ran from someone. I think that the idea that people would think that he is afraid means more to him than going out there and fighting him and taking the chance, especially when there's a real possibility he's just fucking. He just outclasses Tom Aspinall. Like, there's a real possibility of that, that he goes out there and he just outclasses Tom Aspinall. You don't know, Right? So I think that he'll fight him. I don't think they'll need to strip him. I think he'll fight him. And even though you're right, you can walk away and go, I'm the best. I. I don't need to do anything else. That that idea that you ran is going to be too strong of a pull for him as he goes into the next phase of his career, and I think he's going to fight him.

[Ben Askren]

Yeah.

[Daniel Cormier]

Yeah, I think he's gonna fight. All right, Ben. Well, hey, have fun at the bitcoin convention, guys.

[Ben Askren]

So much fun.

[Daniel Cormier]

Are you coming to Vegas, Dude, I'm there just today for like three hours. I go, we're doing an Ultimate Fighter panel and a premiere party, and I'm once.

[Ben Askren]

Don't you have a. Is there a fight coming up soon?

[Daniel Cormier]

Saturday? There's a fight Saturday, so I'm working this week. But are you in town this weekend?

[Ben Askren]

I'm leaving Friday night.

[Daniel Cormier]

Oh. Well, let's say I give you some diggings to the Apex. Have you ever been?

[Ben Askren]

I have been to a fight in the Apex. Unfortunately, Rick's on the last. Very quiet, very almost strange, almost like it almost felt like a little bit of like, inner squad duel me. You know where.

[Daniel Cormier]

Yes.

[Ben Askren]

Yeah.

[Daniel Cormier]

It's an amazing facility. Probably my favorite place in the world to work, honestly.

[Ben Askren]

Nice and easy.

[Daniel Cormier]

All right, guys, until next time. Peace. This podcast is sponsored by Total Wireless, the official wireless partner of ufc. When you're streaming the fight or sharing those takedown highlights, you need a wireless provider that keeps you close to the action. With Total Wireless, you're covered by the Verizon 5G network, so you don't have to worry about your connection being knocked out at the biggest moments. It's not something you can usually say about a wireless provider, but Total Wireless really does have your back. They're in your corner every second of the day, so you never miss a thing. Visit totalwireless.com or visit your local Total Wireless store to learn more about how Total Wireless can be in your corner. 5G access requires a 5G capable device and a 5G service area. Additional terms apply. See website for details.

[Unknown]

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[Daniel Cormier]

And it's going to take us to heal us.

[Dr. J]

It's Mental Health Awareness Month, and on a recent episode of just heal with Dr. J the incomparable Taraji P. Henson stopped by to discuss how she's discovered peace on her journey.

[Daniel Cormier]

I never let that little inside of me die.

[Dr. J]

To hear this and more things on the journey of healing, you can listen to just heal with Dr. J from the Black Effect Podcast Network on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts at.

[Daniel Cormier]

And T connecting changes everything.

[Unknown]

I know a lot of cops. They get asked all the time, have you ever had to shoot your gun? Sometimes the answer is yes. But there's a company dedicated to a future where the answer will always be no. This is Absolute Season 1 Taser Incorporated.

[Daniel Cormier]

I get right back there and it's bad.

[Unknown]

Listen to Absolute Season 1 Taser incorporated on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Daniel Cormier]

This is an iHeart podcast.