Best of The Herd

Summary

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The Herd with Colin Cowherd (Best Of)

Date: May 29, 2026
Episode Theme:
A fast-paced, opinionated deep dive into the NBA Playoffs—especially the Spurs vs. Thunder series—the ongoing SGA “flopping” debate, Victor Wembanyama’s emerging legacy, NBA Draft insights with top analyst Jonathan Givony, and a brief touch on NFL storylines.

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1. Spurs vs. Thunder Game 6: Wembanyama’s Redemption & Game 7 Preview

[03:08-08:23] Rob Parker, Ryan Hollins

• The show opens buzzing over the San Antonio Spurs’ dominant Game 6 victory over Oklahoma City, forcing a Game 7.
• Victor Wembanyama’s comeback:
  • After a disastrous Game 5 (“wet the bed”), Wemby responds with a “legacy game.”
  • Opened with 11 first-quarter points, hitting his first three threes, and finishing with 28 in a “masterful performance.”
  • “When Wemby is hitting step back threes…look at that—he’s 7’5!” (Rob Parker, 03:22)
• Dylan Harper’s return:
  • Key teammate Dylan Harper, who had struggled since an early series injury, finally returns to form.
  • Notable moment: Harper praises Wemby’s intense pregame energy, referencing his “Shaolin monk robe.”
    • “You see him come in…with the Shaolin monk robe…everyone knew what was going to happen.” (Dylan Harper, 04:52)
• San Antonio’s Challenges for Game 7:
  • OKC missed 30 threes; at home, they’re expected to shoot better.
  • Rob Parker voices concern: “If De’Aaron Fox continues to play at such a poor level… I don’t think [OKC] can go into Game 7 and win.”
• Context:
  • Recent NBA history: road Game 7’s won by Sixers and Cavs, but Parker points out OKC’s home crowd is a different animal.
  • “I need to see that [devin] vassell energy…got in Chet Holmgren’s face, gave him a shove…” (Rob Parker, 06:47)

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2. SGA Debate: Flopping, Playoff Pressure, and Legacy

[08:23-17:35] Rob Parker, Ryan Hollins, Rachel Nichols, SGA

• SGA’s Dismal Game 6 Performance:
  • “SGA had another terrible game last night, 6 of 18, couldn’t make a three…flopping every time he goes up, like that grandma in the commercial—‘I’ve fallen and I can’t get up!’” (Rob Parker, 07:59)
  • Only three free throws drawn.
• SGA Responds:
  • “A lot of the shots that I'm shooting I've shot plenty of times before and they feel good, they're just not going in…it's too late to abandon my work and abandon my game…” (SGA, 08:35)
• Strategic Adjustments:
  • The Lakers popularized double-teaming SGA.
  • OKC missing secondary creators like AJ Mitchell and J-Dub (who looked lost and had a -18 plus/minus in 10 minutes).
• The “Flopping” Narrative:
  • Parker argues the “number one narrative in the series” is SGA’s flopping.
  • “People are running numbers on how often he falls to the ground…even his Olympic teammate is making a board game out of it.” (Rob Parker, 10:00)
  • Parker draws a parallel to LeBron’s early Miami legacy: “It took LeBron three championships, including a historic one, to wipe that [‘stink’] off his resume.” (Rob Parker, 11:27)
  • Wonders if SGA’s reputation will forever be defined by his “free throw merchant” status.
• Comparisons & Context:
  • Without “favorable whistles,” SGA compared to CJ McCollum, Allan Houston, Rip Hamilton—solid, but not all-time greats.
• Plus/Minus Data:
  • “When he’s [SGA] off the court, Thunder are +10; when he’s on, they’re -28—opposite of Wemby.” (Rob Parker, 13:55)
• Rachel Nichols weighs in:
  • “It won’t ruin his legacy…but the stench of how people see him…that can stick around for four or five years…fans are miserable watching this over and over.” (Rachel Nichols, 16:33)

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3. Ryan Hollins Segment: Flopping, SGA’s Game, and OKC/Spurs Analysis

[21:34-30:43] Rob Parker, Ryan Hollins

• Game 7 Anticipation:
  • “The two best words that we have in sports: Game Seven. You’re going to see basketball in its purest form…” (Ryan Hollins, 21:52)
• On SGA’s Flopping:
  • Hollins admits: “All great players foul bait… but there’s tiers. SGA is in that [James Harden, Jalen Brunson] tier.” (Ryan Hollins, 22:36)
  • But credits SGA’s ability to excel within the rules—“He’s won a championship…still a dog on the floor.” (Ryan Hollins, 23:02)
  • Parker pushes back: “If he’s not getting the line…are we talking about an all-time great? Because he’s not a 3-point shooter, doesn’t have the frame…falls to the ground, it’s just weak.” (Rob Parker, 24:00)
• SGA in the Clutch:
  • Hollins: “If you had a final shot, you’d give the ball to SGA over anyone [except maybe Wemby or Brunson]…does not take away from what he’s doing.” (Ryan Hollins, 25:12)
• Plus-Minus Mystery:
  • Parker: “Through six games, they’re -28 with SGA on the court. That’s shocking for your star.” (Rob Parker, 25:43)
  • Hollins: Spurs “built to attack OKC," schematically trapping and limiting SGA.
• Thunder Series MVP:
  • Parker suggests Alex Caruso. Hollins compares it to “Iguodala over Steph for Finals MVP”—acknowledges Caruso’s huge moments but credits SGA as the engine.
• Knicks Questions
  • Injury impact of Mitchell Robinson (Hollins: Will be playable except for “Hacker Robinson” at the line.)
  • Who do Knicks match up better with in the Finals: Spurs or Thunder?
    • “I would say the Spurs…[because of] inexperience…OKC has the pedigree.” (Ryan Hollins, 29:40)
  • Game 7 pick:
    • “My heart says it’s Spurs, but OKC is going to do it—role players shine at home…Game 7 is different.” (Ryan Hollins, 30:25)

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4. NBA Draft Deep Dive with Jonathan Givony

[34:03-49:24] Rob Parker, Jonathan Givony

• Who’s #1? Analytics Bet on Cam Boozer
  • “100% of [NBA analytics people] have Cam Boozer at number one in their draft model—most productive college player by a mile at 18...he’s going to be a 20-10 guy from day one.” (Jonathan Givony, 35:00)
• Boozer’s Projections:
  • Knock: Lacks elite athleticism.
  • Counter: Comps range from “a souped-up Kevin Love” to “not quite Jokic…but the passing separates him.” (Givony, 36:15)
  • “You want to put the ball in his hands as much as possible.” (Givony, 37:35)
• At Pick #2:
  • Givony likes Darren Peterson: “Biggest talent, most dynamic creator…6’6’’ size, elite creator, could be All-NBA.” (Givony, 38:35)
• High School to NBA Track Records:
  • Peterson’s recurring victories over AJ Debanza at every competitive level: “Not a single setting…where I felt Darren Peterson wasn’t the most talented on the floor.” (Givony, 40:12)
• Other Top Picks:
  • Caleb Wilson:
    • “Exceptional athlete…defender, rebounder, hard to stay in front of…he’ll be there at four.” (Givony, 41:23)
  • Mid-Lottery Point Guards:
    • Givony predicts “Nate Ament and Mikel Brown” will go above more traditional names like Keaton Wagler, Kingston Flemings, Acuff:
      • “Positional size is so important” (Givony, 42:43)
      • “Mikel Brown…most talented guard prospect after Darren Peterson.” (Givony, 44:00)
• Workouts & Scouting:
  • Not as much top prospect vs. top prospect—agencies protect their clients, so teams must rely on in-game footage.
• Wembanyama’s Impact on Bigs:
  • Rise of players like Adai Mara (7’4”, Michigan): “Every trend in the last few years has been toward size…that type of reach, skill, passing makes Mara very compelling.” (Givony, 45:42)
• Veteran College Players:
  • Axel Lindeborg (older Michigan star): “I see him in that 8-14 range—played all positions, shot well, defense improved. Teams like NBA-ready older players.” (Givony, 46:48)
• Draft Sleepers & Risers:
  • “Maurice Johnson—the guy skyrocketing right now. Analytics love him: 6’9” barefoot, 7’4” wingspan…shot it well, tons of production.” (Givony, 47:53)
  • Could see 3 Michigan players in the lottery (“pretty good year for Dusty May”).

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5. Notable Quotes & Moments

• On Wemby’s Pregame Aura:
  • “Looks like the beginning of a Wu-Tang video…love it.” (Rob Parker, 05:22)
• On SGA’s Series Woes:
  • “This flopping is exposing him as not even close to the category of a Kobe, of a D-Wade, of all the great shooting guards in NBA history.” (Rob Parker, 12:00)
• On SGA’s Enduring Persona:
  • “It’s not going to ruin his legacy… but the stench…can stick around for four or five years.” (Rachel Nichols, 16:33)
• Game 7 Energy:
  • “Game Seven… you’re going to see basketball in its purest form.” (Ryan Hollins, 21:52)
• On NBA Draft Trends:
  • “The trend…has been towards size. People are trying to play multiple bigs together.” (Jonathan Givony, 45:42)
• On Analytical Draft Models:
  • “Cam Boozer…100% at the top of their draft model. He’s been the best player at every level since he was fourteen.” (Jonathan Givony, 35:00)

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6. Timestamps for Key Segments

• Spurs-Thunder Game 6 & Wemby’s Performance: 03:08–08:23
• SGA “Flopping” & Legacy Debate: 08:23–17:35
• Ryan Hollins, More SGA Debate, Game 7 Prep: 21:34–30:43
• NBA Draft Insights with Jonathan Givony: 34:03–49:24

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This episode is a must-listen for hardcore NBA fans: it’s full of hot takes, layered analysis, behind-the-scenes draft nuggets, and debate about what it means to build a legacy in the social media era of basketball.

Transcript

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com credit card thanks for listening to the best of the herd podcast be sure to catch us live every weekday on fox sports radio and noon to three eastern nine am to noon pacific find your local station for the herd at foxsportsradio dot com or stream us live every day on the iheartradio app by searching fox sports radio or fsr

[Jonathan Gavoni]

this is the best of the herd

[Ryan Hollins]

with colin cowher on fox sports radio

[Rob Parker]

hello and welcome to the herd it is a perfect friday here in the final week of may it's perfect because the spurs destroyed the oklahoma city thunder yes that's a forlorn sga on the bench folks i don't think i thought i would have this kind of energy after what happened in game five but game six a totally different story we have a phenomenal show jam packed today some outstanding guests the foremost nba draft analyst stopping by former nfl player yes lamar jackson is still in the news i know you don't really want to hear it but i'm going to jump right in let's get right to it okay it's time baby victor wembanyama we challenged him on this show after he wet the bed in game five could not do anything offensively four for fifteen hey wemby you going to show up for your legacy game and guess who showed up in spades last night in game six victor wembanyama started off the first quarter unbelievably hot hit his first three threes i mean listen he was in his bag eleven points right out of the gate when wemby is hitting step back threes in the first quarter and the crowd is geeked i mean folks look at that it's a step back three look at that he's seven foot five okay now victor wembanyama finished with twenty eight in a masterful performance he got some help from his guys we'll get to them in a moment specifically dylan harper harper if you remember was injured earlier in the series he was dynamic in game one he was everywhere he was our second best player and then the injury happened he got a one way ticket on the struggle bus we haven't seen him guy was on a milk carton and then he showed up last night and here's what dylan harper had to say about wembanyama's awesome pregame outfit and the energy it

[Ryan Hollins]

gave the team i know victor is always locked in but you see him come in with i don't know if you saw with the shaolin monk robe and he's he's he's animated like that you know before the game did you kind of have a feeling he was going to you know come out that hot of a start yeah i mean we all had a bad taste in

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our mouth at the last game we

[Ryan Hollins]

felt like we left a lot on

[Rob Parker]

the table and that's just what vic

[Ryan Hollins]

do i think that's the type of guy he is you know man at his word so when he came in he kind of came with the outfit i think everyone knew knew what was

[Rob Parker]

going to happen yeah listen now the spurs get to force game seven here's the pregame outfit you know fit check wemby i mean looks like the beginning of a wu tang video love it here's the only concern um okc missed thirty three pointers okay we know when they go home they're not going to miss them they're not caruso is going to be banging them you're going to have kayson wallace all these guys are going to make all their threes i'm just curious if the spurs can hold them off and actually play as good of defense on the road as they did at home now i know okc didn't get their whistle that they want we'll get to them in a moment but if de' aaron fox continues to play at such a poor level folks he was one of nine last night five of twenty four in the last two games if they're not getting anything from fox i'm being honest i don't think they can go into game seven and win now we have seen two game seven road victories this postseason the sixers went into boston and the cavs went into detroit neither of those venues sorry is anything like okc all right it's just not okc last year two game sevens one against denver aaron gordon was hurt kind of playing on one leg they went in handily and then there was the pacers game where tyrese halliburton goes down with the achilles in like the first ten minutes or first five minutes and that was a wrap i do think if they can bring the devin vassell energy you saw the clip there he blocked chet holmgren at the rim got in his face gave him a little shove like i'm not going anywhere we're not backing down i need to see that on the road and i don't know if the young guys could do that the line is three and a half i haven't bet it we've been giving out free money on the show we we told you knicks in a romp we told you yesterday's spurs you know we did miss game five but you can't hit them all two and one that's not bad all right let's turn our attention to sga and the okc thunder now i did take a couple shots at sga throughout this season throughout this post season regular season all of it i'm not an sga hater i know people think i'm a little anti sga but but folks you gotta admit j mack kind of nailed this one all right i said before the series he was going to be in trouble i watch those regular season games i know the regular season is different from the playoffs but castle ain't backing down harper is a strong dude he's stronger than sga and sga had another terrible game last night six of eighteen couldn't make a three and he only got three free throws here he is flopping every time he goes up the guy's falling to the ground crumbling it's like that grandma in the commercial i've fallen and i can't get up you've seen those infomercials that's what he looks like seriously look every time he drives just falling to the ground the refs aren't taking that bait anymore it's almost like the memo is out hey guys we're not calling that crap anymore he is struggling so badly this season here are the season numbers against the spurs in this series it's even worse he's at thirty seven percent shooting twenty six percent from threes guys i'm not going to totally bury him yet give me another minute here's sga talking about his shooting struggles last night

[Ryan Hollins]

a lot of the shots that i'm shooting i've shot plenty of times before and they feel good they're just not going in yeah it's too late to abandon my work and abandon my game and who i am this late in the season i got to trust it and live or die by it now

[Rob Parker]

i will say that jj redick and the lakers started this they saw it last series hey we got to get the ball out of his hands marcus smart was physical with him and they made him give it up the problem was he had aj mitchell as his wingman and aj mitchell can create for himself and for others so now aj mitchell's out with a calf and that's not great to be totally fair aj mitchell was very good this year he played nineteen total minutes in the nba finals last year so i'm not going to act like oh my god he's all nba guy maybe down the road and he was good this year let's not act like oh no aj mitchell you can't win the series then there's the j dub factor and oh my gosh what a bad decision for him to play i think they were hoping he would give them like an energy boost like a willis reed moment you know hey he's going to give it a go j dub was terrible i mean to the point there he is with a turnover like i mean that's like me in my men's league like i can't handle it half court against pressure i'm a true i'm a truth teller guys j do was coughing it up ten minutes he was minus eighteen not great so that's out of the way but as a result the pressure's on sga and he's not delivering now this is a little bit crazy okay you know i'm willing to say some wacky stuff this is super strong so there's a headline out there today sga one loss away from having his entire legacy slandered that's an actual headline on the internet today and initially you know you laugh you're like oh geez legacy sga's twenty seven he turns twenty eight this summer what legacy slandered take a deep breath shucks you know the flopping is out of control it's the number one narrative in the series your mom and your seventy eight year old grandma are aware of the flopping why because it's being talked about everywhere you can't turn on a tv show podcast radio without hearing this and all it's all over social media the videos are three minutes long of every time sga fell to the ground in the series like it's a real thing you've got his olympic teammate making up a fun board game about sga you can't breathe on him so i do wonder i thought about this and i'm like you know this flopping it's a narrative it's a thing you can't shake it sga is now going to be connected to flopping forever so i thought about it the only comparison i could come up with was when lebron left cleveland the first time okay he does the special with jim gray not a great look he goes to miami his first press conferences hey we got chris bosh me d wade not going to win not one not two not three and they and they made this that we're going to win all the titles and then they come out in year one and lose to dallas in the finals and it was one of those well i don't want to hear anything about lebron being a star are you kidding me okay he couldn't shake that for like five years i'm not even kidding this this was a real thing he won back to back titles with the heat it didn't matter remember when they lost to dallas they said they were going to win fifty titles so he goes back to cleveland and he's down three one to the seventy three win warriors the greatest regular season team in nba history they have to come back from down three one for lebron to erase the stench of ditching cleveland with the press conference and then not one not two not three again that was such a big story nationwide that it took lebron three championships including a historic one to wipe that off his resume and now people move on okay well he beat this team he's him lebron's that guy and i just wonder like sga has kind of dug himself a bit of a hole here folks this flopping this inability to get to the free throw line and i and i start coming up with comparisons i'm like okay so if sga isn't getting a favorable whistle and getting to the foul line and he's being held to fifteen points and you know he's not a three point shooter he would admit that who is he and i start looking around the league like who are some great shooting guards who couldn't really get to the free throw line but were excellent you know it reminded me of conan o' brien's if they made it remember that skit that he had where it'd be like celebrity a and celebrity b have a kid ha look what it looks like so i was doing an if they made it with sga no free throws and like great shooting guards of the past and i'm like so is sga basically like a cj mccollum if he doesn't get a favorable whistle which is not slander mccollum's a really good player all star he might have made an all nba team like is sga allen houston knicks fans know him well really good shooter didn't shoot a lot of free throws oh four or five free throws a game sga is like nine free throws a game he shot seventeen and three quarters the other night that's where he makes his living and again this is not slanted allen houston cj mccollum maybe he's rip hamilton a great champion detroit piston legend rip hamilton mid range game like i think that's all reasonable where people are not going to accept sga stuff folks is just well hey you know we're going to have to have some uncomfortable conversations if sga has two titles and two mvp's like no we don't no because this flopping is exposing him as not even close to the category of a kobe of a d wade of all the great shooting guards in nba history he's not in that class now if they lose on saturday at home holy hell they will have been the number one seed three years in a row and they will have got to the finals once that's a disappointment now maybe they win game seven and he goes on but if you guys remember yesterday i had chris broussard on the show and i said cb the mvp if they win game six is alex caruso and he scoffed at me and then i hit him with some numbers and he kind of came back a little bit let's show on the screen sga the two time mvp when he's off the court in the series the okc thunder are better they're plus ten with sga off the court when he's on the court they're minus twenty eight that is the inverse of victor wembanyama aka the best player in the league now obviously plus minus isn't everything and the thunder have gotten off to some slow starts i don't know how that happens with the two time mvp defending champion team whatever but on the court he's minus twenty eight alex caruso by the way is a big plus when he's on the court caruso was fine last night nobody was good for them but folks we head to game seven and you know i we could play this double legacy game all all day and jason how is somebody playing for their legacy at twenty seven years old that's goofy but again just think back to that lebron thing the stench of his departure from cleveland lingered for years okay i mean sga could have forty and maybe this takes off some of the stain but i'm just telling you this falling this flopping constantly going to the ground i mean people are running numbers how often he falls to the ground so i don't think he's going to be able to erase it even with a title this year now yeah i had to start the show with some hot takes rachel nichols i want to bring you in here before we get to break again i am known as like kind of a quasi anti sga guy that was a bit of a nine minute rant but again it's backed up by data and i think what you're you're watching the same game i am yeah if he doesn't get to the line he's not the same player look

[Rachel Nichols]

i think your comp with the not one not two not three is exactly right it's not going to ruin his legacy this guy's a two time mvp already you know and he's you know however many wins first round you know number one seeds all that kind of stuff gotten to one maybe two finals he'll be fine his legacy will be fine but the stench of how people see him in a certain way that can stick around for four or five years there's no question about that and look all teams flop lots of players flop but because he seems to do it the most at least the perception he doesn't get to the line the most by the way in the league but because he seems to fall down the most it's sort of been pinned on him and viewers are frustrated we talked about this the other day flopping the people it hurts most are the fans right it's not the other team because if there's no free throw then actually they're getting to go up the court you know five on four but the fans it is miserable watching this over and over and over again and people are going to blame someone for taking some of their joy out of

[Rob Parker]

basketball yeah all right coming up next here on the herd folks lamar jackson finally finally it took him four months to talk about the departure of his head coach john harbaugh wait till you hear what he had to say that's next on the herd be sure to catch live editions of the herd weekdays

[Ryan Hollins]

at noon eastern nine am pacific on fox sports radio fs one and the

[Rob Parker]

iheartradio app this is rob parker and i'm here with an important public service announcement whatever you do do not listen to the paulie and tony fusco show fox sports radio asked me to do a promo but i'm here to do a no mo as in don't listen to this show no mo the host of two fools from philly who have the dumbest takes ever in all of sports talk and you know if i'm saying that they must really be bad i have no idea why fox sports radio picked this up but i know where to put it down in the trash can so please don't listen to the paulie and tony fusco show no way no how brought to you by

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[Rob Parker]

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[Rob Parker]

card by former nba center ryan hollins great voice on the nba rockets tv analyst we've been chopping it up for years radio tv everything my man how fired up are you for game seven on saturday night i'm ecstatic man it's

[Ryan Hollins]

the two best words that we have in sports game seven you're going to see basketball in its purest form it's going to be physical these teams are going to be going at it we got a little personal stuff going on we got wimby pulling hair hardenstein pulling hair there's going to be some musty

[Rob Parker]

tv yeah all right so let's dive right in i got to start with the flopping okay i know a lot of people it's a polarizing topic if you've been on social media the last ten days flopping is everything sga is the king flopper they've run this is not just like subjective they've run the numbers nobody falls to the ground more than sga ryan you've played with and against floppers this is egregious do you think this is a stain on the league

[Ryan Hollins]

i think it's something that the league is going to have to address and here's the reality where you have to give credit sga is just good at it and these guys are have mastered the game to where you've got to call a foul they become impossible to guard and there's a level hear me when i say this there's a level where all great players have foul baited michael jordan infamous foul baiter kobe bryant foul braider like go down the line you have to do it to be successful but what happens is there's tiers of it there's a different tier sga is in a different tier he's in that tier with jalen brunson with james harden okay so when we talk about foul baiting that's where people are questioning the integrity of the game and it's because they've gotten so good at doing it j mac and here's the difference sj's won a championship with it so he's got a lot of game and let's not confuse to say we don't appreciate questioning the integrity of the game but you still are a dog on the floor so there's no question about him and he's won a championship

[Rob Parker]

doing it but you say that he didn't get to the foul line last night but three times and he looked like cj mccollum out there taking jump shots which is not a slight he's an all star he's not a two time mvp so again if he's not getting a favorable whistle i mean are we really talking about like an all time great a two time mvp because yeah he gets he's a free throw merchant we get that but if he's not getting the line he's not a three point shooter he doesn't have the body frame to handle and look at this i mean there was a sequence like a twenty five second sequence in the first half where he drove flopped no call come the other way right back two on one break falls no call and it's just like brian what are we doing man it's just weak

[Ryan Hollins]

j mac did he close out game five did he catch the ball on the wing alex baseline no he hit the shot he got the ball on the wing he ripped and go baseline and he hit the biggest shot in the game to close it out and then he looked at jeremy mccain and said easy great players go hot and cold we're not looking for perfection from sga but his numbers and the team success has said it all so if you had to pick a player out of this whole series that you would say hey heck out of the whole the players left right now in the playoffs is there one guy outside of sga over sga that you would give the ball to yeah wendy no stop not in the clutch wait better than wemby right now i would give i said the clutch he's the most clutch

[Rob Parker]

player well actually i don't know jalen

[Ryan Hollins]

brunson won the award stop playing right now i would give the ball to him over brunson and brunson's a dog you love big body brunson there's no question but you would give the ball to sga if you had a final shot to be taken okay tie game everything on the line or down one you're giving the ball to sga so let's not act like he's not a dog does not take away from what he's doing the foul bait ain't pretty to look at though i'm not going to pretend like you were wrong by that but let's not discredit what he brings to the table have you seen

[Rob Parker]

this obviously he brings a lot to the table goodbye have you seen the stat through six games they're minus twenty eight with sga on the court how on earth do you explain that your starting guard plays a ton of minutes

[Ryan Hollins]

that's very fair here's the reality when sga is out there they're getting physical with him they're double teaming him the spurs have been able to they have been built to attack oklahoma you know how like with the warriors you had to build a team to play against the warriors you had to build a team to play against shaq and kobe's lakers you had to you had to assemble the spurs have been assembled to go after oklahoma city and they've double teamed him they've schemed him they mixed things up early in the in the series they were trapping him at half court saying caruso we're going to give open jump shots then they would spot over on the lane wimby would just kind of follow him in this last game they had success the spurs did because what they do wimy would wait and as soon as those drives happened he's athletic to get over there and and slide over so the one thing they've done is keep sga from getting to the rim and a lot of the shots are over contested high big body hand and they have the versatility to guard them so hats off to

[Rob Parker]

the spurs man so i told broussard yesterday if the series ends caruso's my vote for mvp and he bit my head off and then the staff told me today that a couple guys at espn are now saying i think caruso should be the mvp of the series for the thunder who you got as your mvp through six games for okc

[Ryan Hollins]

i mean this is comparable to you know igu dolla winning the mvp over steph curry steph curry draws the attention every piece of your game plan and i played against steph curry not in the actually yes in the playoffs we have back this is before he was really steph steph but you create game plans to play unorthodox defense against steph curry he's the reason that everything happens in the universe so i think you can credit caruso because in those games there was a reason he was open and hats off to caruso the veteran he stepped up and he made shots they tried to pick on him and they saw that he showed everybody hey i'm not the one i will go out and drop a thirty ball on you and that's why oklahoma city is really darn good because they're seven and eighth ninth man i don't even think they have a ninth man or a sixth man they just step up and make plays so i think caruso would be deserving but make no mistake everything goes through shape but he's been spectacular not just offensively but on both ends and when that team needed something caruso's been that like hey guys keep it calm hit a shot make something happen so j mac you're not you're not completely slapstick with this one man all

[Rob Parker]

right okay slapstick out let's go to the knicks real quick mitchell robinson with the pinky broken had surgery as a big guy holland's a center you know you and mitchell similar i mean i think he's got twenty one of his twenty eight baskets or dunks in the playoffs i'm just curious what's the impact of the broken finger to mitchell robinson and the knicks first off mitchell robinson

[Ryan Hollins]

a much better player than i was man he rebounds like a month so shout out to mitchell robinson by the way this is where it will impact mitchell robinson and you've seen already aka mitchell robinson will probably be in effect if i'm playing against mitchell robinson and he's out there or in that that the the big lineup that we've seen mike brown implement or try to get some size on the floor to kind of let's assume if it is san antonio to you know attack wimby they're going to get him off the floor with hacker robins other than that dunking the ball getting a rebound he's going to be as effective as he has been it's just a free throw so um if i'm a coach on the opposing side packer mitchell robinson as soon as he steps on the floor i'm a play him off the floor and then by the nba rules in the last two minutes you can't do it then they can choose another shooter so i would absolutely go more packer robinson that's the only thing it would impact but he's still going to be able to play at a high level all

[Rob Parker]

right we got about sixty seconds left i'm just curious who do you think the knicks have a better chance against next round thunder or spurs

[Ryan Hollins]

i would say the spurs and pick your poison either way i think the nba championship is being played right now in the in the western conference but i would say the spurs because inexperience you want to see a team that's new they don't have the same inspiration and in some ways you know if there's a moment of hesitation where they're just happy to be there you got them and i think oklahoma city they have the pedigree they've won their cohesive unit they know what to look like and how they're going to look in these major moments so i think the spurs are the more talented group but ultimately they may not have the experience and in

[Rob Parker]

fifteen seconds your pick for the western conference finals game seven the line is three and a half okc favorite at home

[Ryan Hollins]

my heart says it's first i think okc is going to do it my heart says it's first but we got to be realistic role players play better at home and again they've got experience in these game sevens and from being in them myself game seven is a different game than all the other games it looks different it feels different it smells different the shirt you got

[Rob Parker]

on man thank you you like the shirt okay ryan hollins great guy thanks buddy we'll talk to you soon all right guys all right coming up second hour we are going to talk a little new york knicks and hey have you seen this college football trash talk story it's incredible you'll get it you're gonna love it be sure to catch live editions of the herd weekdays at

[Ryan Hollins]

noon eastern nine am pacific brought to

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[Jonathan Gavoni]

i wonder if this can beat the market everyone's talking about the nasdaq one

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hundred but let's get more specific software actually too broad how about software that's already profitable companies that beat the last five quarters oh and i want founders

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who are marathon runners that's discipline yeah let's see what that looks like with

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[Rob Parker]

gonna love it but you are absolutely gonna love our next guest i think this is his debut on the herd certainly with me well let's bring in jonathan gavoni founder of draft express the guy basically travels the globe finding all the best new prospects he probably knew about wembanyama like a decade ago jonathan

[Jonathan Gavoni]

how are you man i'm doing great so the last time i was on the herd i came on to say ben simmons is overrated do not take him at one and it was such a hot take even for you guys that you haven't brought me back since

[Rob Parker]

how about that hold up that was before my time on the show but that's a hell of a call by you i was a ben simmons truther i do apologize let's start we were talking between the break and i'm floored by this everybody thinks it's debona versus peterson at one in this loaded draft but you said something about cam boozer that kind of blew my mind tell the audience yeah if you talk to

[Jonathan Gavoni]

the analytics people in nba front offices who have a lot of influence these days one hundred percent of them have cam boozer at number one at the top of their draft model that's not just because of what he did in college where he was the most productive player in college basketball by a mile at eighteen years old but also dating back to what he did in high school as well as at the feeble level cam boozer has been the best player in every setting that he's competed on since he was fourteen years old and that goes a long ways with the analytics models and for good reason because he is an exceptional talent and i think he's going to be a twenty ten guy from day one and i think he's even going to make a run potentially at being an all star as a rookie that's my take

[Rob Parker]

whoa so extremely bullish on boozer now obviously you know the big knock is he's not that athletic he can't jump over a phone book and then the counter is well you know jokic wasn't that athletic either and when i mentioned you know could you see boozer being ahead of a jokic curve people are like come on get out of here but i don't know who do you think he projects as what's your nba comp for for boozer

[Jonathan Gavoni]

that's a great question honestly like there isn't a perfect one like you hear you know like a souped up kevin love you hear you know like we would talk about paulo bankero but he's so much of a better defender than him i don't i mean jokic i like that comp just because of the passing ability that's really what separates cam boozer his feel for the game is absolutely exceptional he's got defensively off the ball he's elite he's a great rebounder even though he's not a great athlete he's just first to every loose ball he's his his processing speed his reaction time he is a great basketball player he's also incredibly physical he's really skilled he can shoot he can post he can play pick and roll he can handle the ball we saw duke use him almost as a point guard at times cam boozer is the real deal he i think teams that drafting at one and two are giving him a very hard look in this draft even though that might not be the public sentiment wow so

[Rob Parker]

i guess the next question would be like where does he play and i guess everybody's watching the playoffs now and saying well okay is boozer of four and then you need a big next to him can he be a small ball five like a draymond green where do you see him fitting in on an nba roster obviously he's talented he can fit in anywhere but position wise

[Jonathan Gavoni]

i think he's a power forward who is going to end up playing with the ball in his hands quite a bit because he can really handle he can really pass a guy like that you want to put the ball in his hands as much as possible but he can also play off it because he can really shoot and he can really cut and he can punish mismatches so you're playing pick and roll somebody switches he's going to go down low and he's going to use that big strong frame to his advantage he's got great footwork so really you can play him anywhere on the floor that's what that's the advantage of a cam boozer you can play him in any lineup alongside any type of player and he's going to win basketball games he's done that his entire career there's no reason why that's going to change in the

[Rob Parker]

nba wow so you said analytically one hundred percent of the people love boozer analytically you know kenny kenny atkinson's getting ready for game five tonight for for cavs nicks but analytics are a big driving force in the league now we're where do you think the second pick will land should boozer go one debonso or peterson who has the edge analytically

[Jonathan Gavoni]

there well i don't i think it's one is really is going to be either peterson or debonza i have the wizards are keeping things very close to the vest i'm not one hundred percent sure where they're going to go i don't even cover the draft full time anymore so it's not really my domain to do mock drafts thank god and all of that but if i had the number one pick in the draft i i would go with darren peterson because i think he is the biggest talent in this draft he's the most dynamic creator in this draft you know when you're six' six six' ten wingspan that type of athlete who can create his own shot who can pass who can shoot off the bounce i think he can guard multiple positions what i saw him do at the high school level at fiba at mcdonald's american game jordan marin classic i know he didn't have the kind of college season that we may have hoped a lot of that was due to injuries he did not have this type of burst that we saw earlier on in his career he was dealing with the cramping issues he was constantly asking to come in and out of games darren peterson is going to be an all nba player in my view i mean you build your team around a six six guy who can play point guard who can handle pass and shoot he's got great physical tools who can defend one through three darren peterson is what every nba team is looking for at that point

[Rob Parker]

guard position it's interesting you you mentioned how dominant he was in high school and i'm sure some people listening are like wow come on high school ain't the nba but i'm assuming there is a track record of hey when these kids pop in high school they usually transition well to college in the nba

[Jonathan Gavoni]

well we saw him against agent of banza numerous times over their careers they faced off again and again and again whether it was at usa basketball whether it was at the high school level prolific prep against utah prep whether it was at the mcdonald's all american game where they matched up you know basically all week in practice and then the game and then we also saw them kansas against byu there was not a single setting where they were on the floor together where i felt that darren peterson is not the most talented player on the floor he's just a better athlete he's a better passer he's just a more dynamic player he needs fewer dribbles he's easier to play with don't get me wrong agent the bonza is a phenomenal player i think he's going to end up being an all star but darren peterson is a notch above him from a talent perspective interesting i

[Rob Parker]

love this job jonathan gavoni nfl nba draft analyst sorry i do want to ask about caleb wilson who is you know athletically he looks like he could be kevin garnett you've seen a lot from him he had the injury at the end of the season but what do you see wilson doing any shot he's cracks the top three i think

[Jonathan Gavoni]

there'll be a conversation there i'm sure that memphis will look at that i can't see him surpassing any of the guys in the top three and it's not a knock against him this draft is just so loaded in that top three that it really starts at four really with caleb wilson that's and there isn't another alternative there i mean if he's there at four there's there's really no chance that chicago passes on him in my view you know he's he's like you said he's an exceptional athlete he's a very very you know good defender he can rebound he's a great finisher he's really hard to stay in front of you know creating his own shot from the mid post he just made you know huge strides as the year as the year moved on he was not this type of player honestly in high school he had a reputation for you know tending to coast at times you know he got cut from you know usa basketball can just because he wasn't playing all that hard that was not the player that we saw this year in college he's going to be an outstanding nba player i think the chicago bulls are going to be very excited to add him at four

[Rob Parker]

so in that like five to ten range there's a glut of point guards keaton wagler you got kingston flemings acuff i like braden buries a lot i'm just curious how do you see those guys shaking out in terms of talent is there one that you love more

[Jonathan Gavoni]

than the others yeah i mean i think that all of those guys are going to be usurped on draft night by nate amend i think mikel brown is probably the guy who goes five or six in my view and then nate and then a die mara i think is very much going to be in that conversation in that six seven eight range i could see those three guys pushing down an acuff a waggler a kingston flemings and because those are the size the positional size is so important and that's where a guy like a darius acuff or a kingston flemings really comes up short and you saw what a daimara did in the final four in the national championship game seven foot four you know incredible passer you know it was just a really really skilled player and then nate amet you know six ten six eleven can shoot off the dribble can create his own shot you know very versatile defender that's what the nba game is built around we're watching the playoff games you know you don't see a lot of six two guys out there right i mean it's it's the guys with that positional size who are can play multiple positions that are dynamic they can play on the ball off the ball that's what really what what the nba covets and then and mikhail brown is another guy that i think we we didn't get the the best eval on him this year at louisville because of the back issue you know my understanding is that he's fully cleared he's good to go you know his measurements are absurd and just what he can do with the ball in his hands playing pick and roll shooting off the dribble mikel brown i think is you know he's the most talented guard prospect in this draft

[Rob Parker]

after darren peterson interesting now i love these one on one matchups in the workouts i know they don't do them as often the greatest story i think you might have i might have heard you say in this was the steph curry versus the kid tyreek evans who ended up going to memphis and they played one on one and evans killed him and you know obviously memphis jumped at it and it was like we got to get in the tyreek evans business some guys aren't built for that one on one matchup have you heard about any matchups or workouts that were top prospects will be going at one

[Jonathan Gavoni]

another yeah i think the the workout circuit has changed now i mean where the agents are very risk averse and it's a lot of one on zero stuff in the top ten you know you might get you know a one on one matchup like later in the mid to late part of the first round but you know these top guys that we're talking about they're going to be dribbling around cones and shooting wide open jumpers you're going to have to go back to their game film if you really want to get a feel

[Rob Parker]

for how good they are yeah dai mara from michigan you know you said seven foot four has grown immensely as a talent since the ucla days i'm just curious watching wembanyama eat do you think there are teams in the west who are like you know what we you can't find anyone remotely large as large as wembanyama so you got to find someone big do you think this helps mara at all that wembanyama is emerging as like maybe the best player

[Jonathan Gavoni]

in the league i mean every the the trend of the last few years has been towards size i mean people are trying to play multiple bigs together at the same time and so you need really skilled really long you know centers who can pass and can score and can protect the rim adai mara has a nine foot seven standing reach second largest in nba combine history after taco fall and so that kind of you know length and reach is going to be really hard to score over inside the paint and that combined with the skill level offensively the passing the feel for the game the footwork the touch that is going to make him really compelling on draft night and that's why he's going to be a top ten pick when it's all said and

[Rob Parker]

done i do want to ask about linda borg the great talent from michigan he's on the older side we know the history of you know guys who are like twenty three in the lottery twenty even twenty two is he a candidate to slide a little bit but maybe that works out best for him because then he goes to a good

[Jonathan Gavoni]

team i think he's going to end up in that eight to fourteen range maybe ten to fourteen i don't see him sliding very far you know i mean he was the second best player in college basketball this year after cam boozer and you know we saw him play every position in michigan small forward power forward center he can handle he can pass he can shoot he made a big jump defensively this year you know that frame that we're seeing the length the seven four wingspan there is i just can't see very many teams wanting to pass on that yes the age is a little bit concerned but on the other hand teams are going to say we i want an older player i want somebody that's ready to step in from day one there's not a lot of projection involved with the axel lending board and so he's going to hear his name called very high on draft night and i think he's going to be a plug and play guy from day one yeah and last

[Rob Parker]

one jonathan any high risers or fallers that you're hearing about scuttlebutt teams love keep an eye on i mean i'm surprised nate i meant in like the six seven range would would shock me but you're way more plugged in on this than anybody what are you hearing

[Jonathan Gavoni]

yeah you know it's still a little bit early i mean really only now are teams in the lottery starting to really get going with their where their workouts the guy that's really skyrocketed this whole pre draft process is maurice johnson you know starting with what we saw in the ncaa tournament you know michigan winning winning the championship but his measurements were elite he measured six foot nine barefoot which is a little bit bigger than a lot of people thought he would be seven four wingspan two hundred fifty one pounds went into the drill portion of the nba combine and really shot it well blew people away in the interviews he's only twenty years old another guy that the analytics absolutely love you know he really fills up the box score with with rebounds with blocks with steals he scores it very efficiently sixty six percent for two he gets the free throw line he makes his free throws there's a you know a sense of optimism that mares johnson is going to be a guy that is going to be able to step outside and make threes eventually so you know like we talked about earlier the nba is trending bigger right now people want you know size the fact that he played the four as well as the five and you know show that he can operate in different types of lineups that's going to help mir johnson a lot i could see him end up being a lottery pick in this draft so that'll be three michigan guys in the lottery pretty good year for dusty

[Rob Parker]

may yes nicely done all right jonathan gavoni nba draft analyst hey man we're gonna have to have you back again this is a phenomenal stuff cause you know you could bet on the draft now and you just were giving some actionable stuff great stuff jonathan gavoni thanks

[Jonathan Gavoni]

a lot bud thanks for having me

[Rob Parker]

jason all right really good stuff you guys know i nerd out on the draft i mean seriously i totally do

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