← The Herd with Colin Cowherd
The Herd with Colin Cowherd
Hoops Tonight - GAME 7 REACTIONS: Harden, Mitchell & Cavs beat Raptors + Cade & Pistons beat Paolo & Magic
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John Hollinger
This is an iHeart podcast. Guaranteed Human Liberty.
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Mutual customizes your car and home insurance. And now we're customizing this rush hour ad to keep you calm, which could help your driving. And science says therapy is great for a healthy mindset. So enjoy this 14 second session on us. I think you've done everything right and absolutely nothing wrong. In fact, anything that hasn't gone your way could probably be blamed on your father not being emotionally available because his father wasn't emotionally available, and so on. And now that you're calm and healing, you're probably driving better, too.
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Imagine an Olympics where doping is not only legal, but encouraged. It's the enhanced games. Some call it grotesque. Others say it's unleashing human potential. Either way, the podcast Superhuman documented it all, embedded in the games and with the athletes for a full year.
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John Hollinger
Within probably 10 days, I put on 10 pounds. I was having trouble stopping the muscle growth.
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Listen to Superhuman on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
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This is Saigon, the story of my family and of the country that shaped us.
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John Hollinger
From iheart Podcasts. Saigon. You don't think I'm serious about a free Vietnam? One city, a divided country, and the war that tore America apart? This is for Vietnam.
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Freedom for Vietnam. There's a fire coming to this country and it's going to burn out everything. Listen to saig on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
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Your husband is not who you think he is. Your body is not what you thought it was. Your identity is formed by a secret history. I'm Dani Shapiro, and these are just a few of the stunning stories I'll be exploring on the 14th season of Family Secrets. He kind of shoved me out of the way and said, move. And he went out the front door and he jumped in a car and drove off. And that was the last time I saw him. Listen to season 14 of Family Secrets starting May 7 on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. The Volume.
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John Hollinger
All right, welcome to Hoops tonight here at the Volume. Happy Sunday, everybody. Hope all of you guys had an incredible weekend. Well, we have two more game sevens finished. We and the first round is officially in the books. We're going to be breaking down both games from the perspective of both teams. Then we're going to briefly talk about a potential. Well, not potential anymore. The future Detroit Pistons, Cleveland Cavaliers second round matchup, which I find very fascinating on several levels. Then we're going to have Jackson come up and we're going to take some questions from the chat. So if you guys have questions about anything, drop them in the chat. We'll get to them with Jackson at the tail end of the show. You guys know the drill. Before we get started, subscribe to the Hoops Tonight YouTube channel so you don't miss any more of our videos. We're on the pathway to 150,000 subs, so it mean a lot to me if you guys would take a second to scroll down and hit that subscribe button. If you're already subscribed, hit that like button and then sign up for post notifications. That helps us a lot as well. All right, let's talk some basketball. So this game in the first half kind of took on a flow that I was accustomed to from the last couple games of the series. We Talked after Game 6. I thought Cleveland had a real advantage in any sort of close game late just because of their depth of ball handling. They just have more dudes who could put the ball on the floor and make something happen if things really slow down late. But for Most of Game 5 and Game 6, Toronto kind of controlled the flow of the game. They had big. You know, I say big is relative, but they were leading in that, like five to 12 point range quite a bit in game five and in game six and in game seven in the first half. Right. So, like the first half kind of stuck in that flow. Like Toronto shooting the ball pretty well. Both James Harden and Donovan Mitchell were struggling just a bit to get their game off. We had a couple of weird, ugly live ball turnovers that led to transition sequences. We had this weird play where Donovan Mitchell turns it over and doesn't get back. And, you know, Dennis Schroeder's yelling at him. The arena is like super, super tense, but they end up going on a run right before the end of the first half and they just completely dominate from there. I thought the story of the game was, was the job that Jared Allen and Max Stre did in that third quarter, specifically Max Stre with his ball pressure just picking up RJ Barrett and Scotty Barnes full court and just preventing them from getting comfortable at all as they were working up the floor. And then Jared Allen, when we covered game six, if you guys remember, one of the things I talked about specifically was the. In that defensive slug fest down the stretch when both teams are really struggling to score, Jared Allen was everywhere on the tape. He was Showing on in help in situations where he wasn't even involved in the action. He was helping protect the rim. He was cleaning up the defensive glass. He may or may not have saved the game at the end of regulation by throwing a close out of Jamal Shed in the left corner and forcing him to double clutch a three like the Cavs lost. But Jared Allen was a bright spot in that end of that game six kind of crunch time sequence. Then we get into tonight and you know, I was, I was talking about this with Jackson before we went live. Like one of the things with Jared Allen in some of his previous playoff struggles is sometimes it felt like he just didn't quite have that extra gear from like a motor slash competitiveness angle to where it kind of felt like he would get shoved around and outworked a little bit in, in some of these previous playoff series. That could not have been further from the truth in tonight's game and oh really in general over the tail end of this series, like you know, the story for a good chunk of this was like Colin Murray Boyles going toe to toe with Jared Allen and Evan Mobley doing damage to those guys. Not tonight. Jared Allen, the efforts that he was making all over the floor in rotation at the rim. He had five stocks in this game. The work he did on the offensive glass, he had eight offensive rebounds. His aggression going towards the basket. You don't get 14 free throw attempts if you're not catching and going up strong consistently. And he was just all over the place in that third quarter run finishes the game with 22 and 19 damn near 2020 with five stocks. One of his coolest playoff moments and really a guy that, you know, when you look at the situation with Evan Mobley getting into foul trouble and just kind of struggling to find a rhythm in the game because of that foul trouble. Jared Allen being able to come in and basically play big minutes as their primary rim protector and to do the job he did was just super, super impressive. And then again, that extra energy brought by max truce and both James Harden and Donovan Mitchell, they had a tough matchup in this series. If you look at the way that they were being guarded, you know, Donovan Mitchell, one of the things that stood out to me, there was a bunch of specific kind of moments during the series where it just kind of looked like he didn't quite have the explosive burst that he's had in previous playoff runs. This series was lacking some of the really dynamic downhill plays that Donovan Mitchell has made in his playoff career. There was a step Back three that he hit in the start of the third quarter. And Donovan was a huge part with his scoring in that early third quarter run. There was a play along the left wing where he shot a step back three and he got decent separation. And when he finally got his 1, 2 down, like when he planted his feet to rise up for the shot, he did get good lift and he knocked it down. But you could tell his feet were just a little janky on the move. And it's like when donovan's like at 100%, you see just a little bit more verve with the way that he hits that move to get into that separation. And so Donovan, you, I, I don't know what the story is. If we may not, we may not even find out until after this playoff run is finished. But like, I think he's probably feeling a little banged up right now. Obviously James Harden, in this type of matchup against a big, athletic team that's throwing all sorts of bodies at him, he's having to do a lot of grifting. He's relying on his playmaking. I thought James Harden over the last few games of the series did a really good job though of diagnosing what the defensive scheme that Toronto was using required of him, which was to drive into the gaps and use his kickout passing to set up quality three point shots. And throughout the series, one of the most interesting dynamics with the way that the two teams were guarding each other was just very simply, guys are going to have to knock down threes. Guys are going to have. Because with Cleveland, the way that Toronto was playing up into the gaps on their stars and kind of conceding that weak side corner skip, and then with Toronto, just in general, the way that Cleveland was packing the paint on them, those three point shots were huge swing factors in this game. And it just felt like Cleveland hit more of the pivotal ones. They did hit three more threes in this game. And down the stretch, like, pretty good look for Jamal Shed goes begging. Pretty good look for RJ Barrett at the top of the key. Goes begging. They just weren't able to keep up with the shot making of this Cavaliers team. And so Cleveland survives, they advance. Very, very interesting challenge for them in this first round that I think is informative for what we can expect to see against the Detroit Pistons in the next round. Hold on to that thought, though. I want to talk briefly about Toronto and then we'll talk a little bit about the Magic Pistons game and then we'll dig into what this series looks like for Both teams on the Toronto Raptors front, I don't know how you could look at this series as anything other than kind of an, an impressive showing. Like, I, I didn't think the Raptors had much chance to compete in the series. I thought they were drawing dead against the way that Cleveland would be able to pack the paint. They were a dramatic underdog from at the start of the series in terms of the gambling lines. Like this was a series that they were expected to kind of just get handled. And they gave the Cavs everything that they were worth. And at various points, like game, if you go back through each individual game, like game two was competitive, Cleveland just pulled away late, right? Like game five, they led throughout. They just. Cleveland ended up making a big run late in the game. Like they were in all of these games and had good chances. And they just, I just thought they put forth a very competitive showing. The top five defense that they were in the regular season clearly manifested the depth of athletes that they can put on ball. Just simple things like, oh, the best guy you can target in our best lineup is like RJ Barrett. Like, good luck, you know, like an RJ over the course of the series held up better and better in isolation. And the way that they flew around in rotation, like how many times did you see James Harden or Donovan Mitchell make a nice kind of drive into the middle through that started a passing sequence that got the ball to the corner. But here comes the Toronto Raptors player flying out in a closeout that just made that dude second guess the shot or end up putting the ball on the floor. And the job that they did just in those rotations to con, to avoid conceding too many open looks like I just thought they were really impressive defensively. And then Scotty Barnes, this was his coming out party in this series. This series was the sign that you have a real foundational star. When we talk about team building and this is something we've talked about with all the teams that we've discussed over the course of the last few, over the last few years, when we get out of the season, it's like the, the, the progress line is like, who's your number one? Who's the guy that's like, I know this guy can be the best player on a championship team. Then you have like, who's the number two? Who's the complimentary star? A really, really high level player whose game meshes well with my top tier player, right? And then the third piece of it is now that I have those top two Guys and I understand what their skill sets are and how they mesh together. How does, how do we build out the rest of the roster to accentuate their strengths and what they are good at, Right? And so it's abundantly clear to me now that Toronto has found their number one. Now, the, the, the, the next challenge here is finding the complimentary star. I do think that they were looking in the right territory with Brandon Ingram in terms of like a perimeter ball handling score, but I just don't think Brandon Ingram's good enough. That has been abundantly clear over the course of the season and over this postseason. So the next step for them is trying to find a perimeter score that can bring that level of burst to them on the alongside Scotty Barnes. So, like, we'll see what ends up happening in terms of the, the offseason this year and what players become available. Like, it's very possible that we see a Kevin Durant become available this offseason. It's very possible that we see, you know, an opportunity for, you know, CJ McCollum to become a free agent this year. Like, there's, there's a lot of different guys that could potentially come available this summer, and Toronto's just got to be looking for who that secondary scorer will be alongside Scotty Barnes. And then from there, once you identify who that player is, you can start making some big picture decisions. Scotty's such a gifted passer that I think pairing him with shooting is something that they're going to have to consider. I actually really like Jamal Shed. I know, I know it was an up and down series for him, but the consistent ability to get dribble penetration, which I think is super valuable in the NBA, the ability just to beat someone off the dribble. All season long, we talked about him and Emmanuel Quickley as two guys that just like could initiate possessions for Toronto by beating guys off the dribble. And then he can knock down, catch and shoot threes and he can guard the ball right? Like, I like that fit. But like the look at how good Jameson Battle looked along when he was able to run like inverted action with Scotty and how many Toronto runs were sparked by his ability to shoot like a better version of that type of player, a knockdown shooter, those kinds of. We'll see if Grady Dick kind of evolves into that type of guy. But ultimately that going to be the archetype that I think is going to thrive next to such a gifted passer like Scotty Barnes. You got to be thinking like in that 2018 LeBron range of like, you know, surround this guy with shooting and he's going to be this dominant two way playmaking athlete that's going to be able to kind of pull everything together. But again, successful season for the Raptors. You were a you were above the playing line. You were competitive in the first round series against a team that many, many people thought would be the best team in the east to start the season. You have a player that has arisen as a clear top tier superstar type of talent upside in the four top tiers, maybe pushing it a little bit, but a guy that can easily become a top 10 player in this league if he continues to develop with his skill set. A lot to be excited about if you're a Raptors fan. Today's show is brought to you by presenting sponsor Hard Rock bet, the official sportsbook partner of the Orlando Magic. 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Liberty Mutual Announcer
Mutual customizes your car and home insurance. And now we're customizing this rush hour ad to keep you calm, which could help your driving. And science says therapy is great for a healthy mindset. So enjoy this 14 second session on us. I think you've done everything right and absolutely nothing wrong. In fact, anything that hasn't gone your way could probably be blamed on your father not being emotionally available because his father wasn't emotionally available, and so on. And now that you're calm and healing, you're probably driving better, too.
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Michael Easter
That is the number of people who take the stairs when there is also an escalator available. I'm Michael Easter, and On my podcast 2%, I break down the science of mental toughness, fitness and building resilience in our strange modern world. I'll be speaking with writers, researchers, and other health and fitness experts and more to look past the impractical and way too complex pseudoscience that dominates the wellness industry.
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Jackson
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freaked out about in the world are
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Michael Easter
Listen to 2%. That's 2% on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
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Superhuman Podcast Narrator
Imagine an Olympics where doping is not only legal, but encouraged. It's the enhanced games. Some call it grotesque, others say it's unleashing human potential. Either way, the podcast Superhuman documented it all embedded in the games and with the athletes for a full year.
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John Hollinger
Within probably 10 days, I'd put on £10. I was having trouble stopping the muscle growth.
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Superhuman Podcast Narrator
Listen to Superhuman on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
- [17:58]
John Hollinger
All right, we're going to move to Pistons Magic first, and then we'll talk a little bit about the second round series. So this game went exactly how I expected it to go. I talked to you guys after Game 6, and one of the things that I that stood out to me immediately was like, there's no coming back from that like this is an Orlando team that had been resilient at various points in the, in the first round where like they'd find themselves down big but then have some sort of response to keep things close. I thought, like game five, for example, like they took some punches from Detroit and were able to kind of linger around in game five. But what happened in game six, you had the series in your hands and not only did you decompose, it was one of the most epic collapses in the history of the playoffs. And I just thought that that would be too much for them to overcome. If it wasn't for Paolo coming out and shooting the ball the way that he did today with his jump shot, this thing would have been over sooner than it was. But what I was expecting was at some point during the game, Detroit was going to land a punch. And as soon as they landed a punch, I expected Orlando to fold. And that's pretty much what happened. Ended up being Tobias Harris in the second quarter. Tobias Harris, by the way, five consecutive 20 point games to end this series 30 today ends up finally getting going with his three point shot, which was really the one thing that wasn't going for him throughout the rest of the series. And if you dig into Tobias's playoff history, in his previous 25 playoff games, he had scored 20 points just four times. He did so five times in the last five games. That's how big of a difference that consistent scoring output was from Tobias Harris compared to his previous playoff history. When we were talking about the, the trade deadline and the idea that Cade needed a secondary score, you know, that was exactly what we were talking about. Like he needs a guy that he can count on to give him 20, 20 points to get buckets. Whether it's a little post up, turnaround, fade away, whether it's complex closeout attacking, which he did a lot of in this series, like driving into pull ups, driving into floaters, driving to get all the way to the rim. Transition scoring. Finally got the spot up three going today. But like the, they just needed somebody to be that secondary scorer. And if you looked at Tobias's playoff history, it was like, this guy can't be that guy. Which is why we discussed at length different options for the Pistons to try to find that type of player and look at how much harder they are to beat when he's got a guy who's going bar for bar with Cade. By the way, in that second half of Game 6 during the comeback, Kate was obviously amazing, but Tobias was right there with him, making plays Tobias has been the facsimile of a running mate for Cade and if he can sustain that, the sky's the limit for this team because that's literally the weakness. Cade was absolutely unbelievable. Again to score with the volume and efficiency that he scored within this series. What the types of defensive looks that he was seeing with the quality of athletes that were on him. Like I was already a big fan of Cade, but in many ways this series was a coming out party for him to be. When you talk about the stakes and the pressure and like I already had seen some people coming down hard on Cade when you look at the way that this team was being discussed as an abject failure and by the way, I was one of those people as they were down 3:1. And we'll see if those roster issues rise to the surface in later rounds. I want to discuss that at length here because I think it's going to matter less in some of these later rounds. But just Cade against all odds was just absolutely amazing to end this series. And one of the big things is like their defense was able to drag things into the mud. And when things were into the mud, Cade was able to find actions that worked consistently for him to be able to generate a good shot for himself or for his teammates. Him having a reliable pull up three point shot was super important in this series because it was something that allowed him to score while saving energy. When he absolutely needed to get a bucket for himself, he was able to go to guard, guard switches and to work against Orlando Smalls in the mid range and get to a little 15 foot pull up that he could hit consistently with ball screens. Really those cleared side actions in particular were the ones where he was able to force the drop coverage big to make more complex decisions, whether it was Pal or whether it was Wendell Carter Jr. And he was able to set up a lot of pocket pass situations for advantages even with like two man game with Tobias, which I thought became super reliable for them over the course of the series. So like I just thought Cade had a masterful showing against a team that was physically constructed to beat them. And here's the thing, they were this close to losing and as I talked about at length in the show two days ago, them surviving this means everything. Because you lose game six, you don't come back. The story of the season is you're this dramatic disappointment who is a victim of a 18 upset. But if you really dug into the basketball, it was clear what was happening. There was a unique, unique dynamic taking place. Not just in the half court, but in transition on the glass, where Detroit's ability to bully teams was non, was a non factor against this particular Orlando Magic team. And it came back this close to getting you beat, but it didn't get you beat. And so as you move forward, as we go to other rounds, that can now return into the equation as something that works heavily in their favor. We will go back to the Pistons in just a minute to talk about the second round, but I want to really quickly talk about the Orlando Magic. Would you have potentially won the series if Frog stays healthy? I think you probably do. I think Franz was the steadying force for them in a lot of their tougher circumstances throughout the series. If you look at game one, when Detroit was making their fourth quarter run, it was Franz who closed the deal with this high level pick and roll ball handling. When you look at Game 3, when Detroit was making their run, it was Franz and his scoring that was able to stabilize things. Franz doesn't have the ceiling that Paolo does, but he has a much higher floor. And so when things really went south for Orlando in the series, there was no Franz to rescue Paolo from his floor. And when you saw Paolo's floor, it's just, it is lower than just about any star in the league. Can't make jump shots, can't process, can't defend, can't really do anything. And so, you know, that ended up being something that, that when Franz was out of the equation, really hurt Orlando. But you have to be realistic. We've talked about this at every phase of the last couple months in our prep for the postseason. The playoffs are a war of attrition. They always have been, more so than ever, and they probably always will be. It's what team gets the fewest calf strains, hamstring strains, ankle sprains, whatever it might be. Those things do end up, unfortunately, determining a lot of this stuff. And there is some reality to the fact that Franz Wagner has just been. Whether it's cursed or just bad luck or whatever it might be, he's really struggled to stay on the floor in these situations. And so like, one of the things I was, I was texting with my buddy Sam Vicini when we were watching the Cavs game. And one of the things we were talking about with Orlando is like the specific thing that they so desperately need is like a game managing ball handler. Just like a grownup that can handle the ball and be like, the shit's hitting the fan. You go there, you go there. We're running this set. We're going to get this shot for this guy because this is what we need in this spot to settle things down. And the closest thing to that for Orlando is Franz. And after Franz, they don't have anybody like that. And I would argue even Franz isn't exactly the best at it. He's just better at it than the other Magic players. And so one of the things that I would look at, like, I think the Desmond Bain move was a real push forward in terms of actually bringing in like a guard that can shoot. Like Jalen Suggs. Love the dude. Super fascinating player. Does so many good things. He just can't shoot. He just can't shoot. And that limits his impact dramatically. Like his complete inability to knock down a catch and shoot jump shot was one of the biggest reasons why the Orlando Magic lost the series. And that has been a consistent trend throughout his career. With Jalen Suggs, you catch him on the right night, he's hitting everything. He looks like one of the best players on the floor, but then you zoom out and you look at the percentages and they're always low 30s, right? You know, at best. And so it's one of those things with, with, with Desmond Bain where he came in and addressed a very specific need, which was the, the ability of a guy to knock down shots. But what Desmond Bain is not is that type of slow it down, really high level on ball, kind of like grown up, so to speak. And so I think that's the next step for Orlando. You have to make an internal decision, like, do we think Franz is going to be that guy or do we need to go find that guy and we'll see. Again, just like we were talking about in the last segment for Toronto. You know, Toronto's looking for a perimeter score. Orlando's looking for more of like a game manager. So much depends on like, who becomes available when they get into this summer. Like there's a version of the, of this summer where, you know, what if Houston gets into business with Denver and they do some sort of deal for like Jamal Murray or something like that, then I'd be like calling on Fred Van Vliet. I'd be calling, I'd be trying to see if you can't poach CJ McCollum some sort of grown up that can handle the ball, that can help them get into their stuff, I think would be really, really important to help them stabilize a little bit more with the super low lows that they've dealt with over the course of the last few seasons. Again, for Both Toronto and Orlando. We'll spend some time digging into this when we get to the off season. I'm not really in that frame of mind yet. We'll, we'll, we'll dive deeper into their off season potential when we actually get out of the playoffs. Last thing with Orlando though, internal development on jump shooting. Like I should say, second to last thing, because I want to talk about Jamal Mosley for a second. But in turn, the best pathway to improve your team is internal development. Because trades are really hard to make. Draft picks come with a certain amount of variance. No matter how good your scouting department is. It's just really hard to evaluate an 18 year old or a 19 year old or a 20 year old. Guys need to get in the gym and they need to become better jump shooters. That goes for Paolo. That goes for Franz. That goes for Wendell. Jamal Kane was a standout in this playoff run. Huge step forward in the rotation to find another guy like that that can guard the other team's best player and make some plays off the bounce. But he could spend some time in the gym working on a shot. Jalen Suggs has to work on his shot. Anthony Black has to work on his shot that every one of these dudes needs to spend the reps in the off season working on their jump shot so they can help make this a little bit easier for them this summer. And then lastly, Jamal Mosley. I've been critical of him throughout this all, including during the season when things were going well for Orlando. And I, like, I had an Orlando Magic fan in my mentions when they were up three one that's like, still want Mosley fired. And in my head I'm like, yeah, like, I just like Jamal Mosley. The problem is this team desperately needs organization on offense and they just could not be further from that. It's way too much. Just Paolo standing at the top of the key, calling for guard, guard, screens. And he's never been a good enough passer to hit the hedge, the slip out of the hedge. So like when what I, what I think about with Orlando is like, what if you got a guy who really got them into organized offense to where every single possession, Paulo is essentially starting from a position of advantage and in a situation where instead of just one guard coming to screen for him, everything is part of a three man action and there's more opportunity for mistake, more opportunity to get him downhill without having to like, you know, overpower a smaller player. And I just think that offensive organization piece has been dreadfully lacking for Orlando. For years now and it's one of the easiest things to do to help make life a little bit easier for this team. But as we've talked about so many times, that's only part of it. You need the guys on the floor to be able to process on the fly and that's a weakness with this team. And so again, I will dig into it more this summer and try to come up with a list of guys and we'll see who becomes available when we get to the offseason. But the the Magic need a grown up ball handler that can put Paulo into more of a play finishing role rather than the guy who's determining every possession 35ft from the basket with a live dribble moving on to the next round. I like this matchup for the Pistons in every single way except for Jalen Duran's ability to guard ball screens. What made Cleveland struggle? Physical ball pressure, playing in the gaps, incredible defensive rotations, the difficulty finding favorable matchups to attack on the floor. Just the overwhelming physicality that Toronto brought to bear even on offense. Just like look at how much of a pain in the ass Scotty Barnes was for them to guard. Look at how much of a pain in the ass Colin Murray Boyles was for them on the offensive glass in finishing around the basket. Detroit Similar to what we were talking about with the OKC Houston dynamic and how different OKC is than Houston for the Lakers, Detroit is quite simply just a way better version of Toronto. Better on ball defenders, more depth of on ball defenders, more rim protection. Although the Duran thing gets a little complicated. We'll talk about that in a minute. Cade's just a better, more polished version of Scotty Barnes right now. Not defensively, but offensively. He's a powerball handler that can score from all three levels at a super high level and can play make at a really high level. You don't really have the big wing that can match up with Cade. That's an issue. Jared Allen Jared Allen and Evan Mobley are both a little bit thin and upright and can get shoved around by Isaiah Stewart and can get shoved around by Jalen Durant. And look, I know Cleveland had some success versus Detroit in the regular season and I'm not making my pick tonight. I'm going to dig into the film and we'll have an answer for you guys tomorrow morning on that front. But my initial gut feeling is Detroit can ratchet it up defensively in a way that Minnesota can, that Oklahoma City can, and you would be fooling yourself if you Think it's going to look like a regular season game when you're playing against the Detroit Pistons in the next round. Orlando was physically built to hold up under that onslaught. Cleveland is giving up muscle mass in large quantities at every single position in this matchup. I worry about Donovan Mitchell and James Harden being able to just get the ball up the floor and get into their stuff. I worry about Mobley and Allen finishing in traffic. I worry about guys knocking down shots they struggled to knock down shots against Toronto's closeouts. Detroit's closeouts are even tougher. The one thing that I think I'm that that complicates matters for me and why I really want to watch the film before I watch the regular season games again, before I dig into coming up with the final answer is Jalen Duran has been truly terrible on defense for the most part in each of his two playoff series that he's played in at this point. And especially bad against the Knicks team that could really space him out that had high quality ball handling and roll and basket rollers, right. I worry about if James Harden and Donovan Mitchell can get the ball at the floor and can get into ball screens, that Duran's gonna have a nightmare time trying to guard these guys. That is one thing that I think favors Cleveland, but my initial gut feeling is to pick Detroit and to pick them relatively quick in, like, six games. That's my initial gut feeling. Like, I have a feeling that they would go up 2 oh in the series, shake Cleveland's confidence, and Cleveland would have a hard time tying that series at home and sending it back to Detroit. This is where I want, like, all these Detroit fans that were thinking I didn't like the team. It's not about that. It was all about the matchups. Orlando's a very unique team. Cleveland is a very different team. And I worry about Cleveland handling a bloodbath fist fight. And Toronto did a lot of damage to them with lesser versions of this type of personnel. The only difference is they played a lot more small ball and they had a little bit more switchability to them than this Detroit team has. But that's just the one difference. I think Detroit. And by the way, when it comes to Duran, what. What would I do? Sit him back in a deep drop coverage and have a Sar Thompson hound the living shit out of Donovan and have, you know, Javante Green hound the living shit out of the ball and, like, really just get into ball pressure and. And force the Cavs to play a very uncomfortable brand of basketball with Durin sitting back at the basket rather than showing out at the perimeter. So again, I'm watching a bunch of film tomorrow morning and I'll have a series preview for you guys and I'll have a pick. But my initial gut impression is like, I think Detroit has a a lot of physical advantages in this series that they did not have in the last round. And we have just seen so many examples between Minnesota in Oklahoma City and even Indiana to a lesser extent. More speed, ball pressure wise. But like what Toronto just did, like what Houston almost did to a Lakers team, like being big, strong, fast and playing really hard on defense is a great way to win playoff games in the modern NBA. And Detroit is like one of the very best at it. And the reason why they were able to come back against Orlando is they held them to like 19 points and a half and like that. That's the dynamic that would scare me if I was a Cavs fan. All right, let's bring Jackson up here. Let's get into some questions.
- [36:10]
Liberty Mutual Announcer
Liberty Mutual customizes your car and home insurance. And now we're customizing this rush hour ad to keep you calm, which could help your driving. And science says therapy is great for a healthy mindset. So enjoy this 14 second session on us. I think you've done everything right and absolutely nothing wrong. In fact, anything that hasn't gone your way could probably be blamed on your father not being emotionally available because his father wasn't emotionally available and so on. And now that you're calm and healing, you're probably driving better too.
- [36:37]
iHeart Podcast Promos
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- [36:41]
Michael Easter
2% that is the number of people who take the stairs when there is also an escalator available. I'm Michael Easter, and On my podcast 2%, I break down the science of mental toughness, fitness and building resilience in our strange modern world. I'll be speaking with writers, researchers and other health and fitness experts and more to look past the impractical and way too complex pseudoscience that dominates the wellness industry.
- [37:09]
iHeart Podcast Promos
We really believe that seed oils were inherently inflammatory. We got it wrong.
- [37:15]
Jackson
Many of the problems that we are
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iHeart Podcast Promos
freaked out about in the world are
- [37:17]
John Hollinger
the result of stress. Put yourself through some hardships and you will come out on the other side a happier, more fulfilled, healthier person.
- [37:28]
Michael Easter
Listen to 2%. That's 2% on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast.
- [37:40]
Superhuman Podcast Narrator
Imagine an Olympics where doping is not only legal but encouraged. It's the enhanced games. Some call it grotesque, others say it's unleashing human Potential. Either way, the podcast Superhuman documented it all embedded in the games and with the athletes for a full year.
- [37:56]
John Hollinger
Within probably 10 days, I'd put on £10. I was having trouble stopping the muscle growth.
- [38:03]
Superhuman Podcast Narrator
Listen to Superhuman on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
- [38:13]
Jackson
Let's do it. First one is a super chat from Bryce. Not a question as much as his sort of take on the Cavs Pistons series. He said, I think the Cavs will have some success in the first half of the series offensively, but I think by games 5 through 7, the Pistons physicality will wear Mitchell and Harden down, need Allen and Mobley to play excellent to have a shot.
- [38:33]
John Hollinger
Yeah, that's the mobile and Allen are really the key because there's several specific areas where they have to hold up. They gotta set good screens in terms of like freeing up Mitchell and Al. Mitchell and Harden, like getting downhill into balls, into ball screen attacks. Because like when we talk about Durin, the specific dynamic I fear is him guarding and pick and roll when he has to defend two players, whether that's showing at the level, whether that's in a drop coverage, navigating the like roller and the driver coming right at him. And the only way to really engage during in those actions is to get a good screen so that during has to show, so that during has to come higher. And what that. That puts a level of physicality on Mobley and Allen in terms of their ability to set screens and, and navigate that dynamic. And then the second piece of it is this is a Pistons team that can do a lot of damage on the offensive glass between a Sar Thompson crashing like crazy, between Durin crashing like crazy, throwing bodies around. Isaiah Stewart does the same thing. So like, I would call it like a fail point. Like if Mitchell, if, if, if Mobley and Allen can't hold up physically under the Detroit onslaught, I think they're doomed. And so I agree with you that I think that that's a key kind of pivot point of the series.
- [39:57]
Jackson
One more super chat question we got from Chase. How much pressure is on Cade to be the best player in the series? And how do you weigh Detroit's physical advantages against Cleveland's skill advantages and better offensive spacing
- [40:12]
John Hollinger
as we've seen throughout this series? I'm gonna actually pull up the numbers now because I'm curious. Cleveland didn't shoot well really in that first round series. And a big part of that is like shooting is all fun and games in the regular season when things are loose and free. And then it just gets a lot tougher when you land into some of these, like, like super intense defenses that are throwing crazy closeouts. And so I just, I'm pulling up the numbers right now. Like Cleveland shot in that first round series against Toronto. They shot 34.5% from 3, 32% on catch and shoots, 32% on catch and shoot threes. That's like, that's really not going to cut it against Detroit. And, like, that's what would scare me is, like, that's the same real kind of dynamic that you're going to see now. As far as Cade goes, I'm really not worried about him. And there's a couple of specific reasons why. One, the pressure dynamic gets a little more complicated when there's multiple ball handlers and you're, like, able to defer a little bit. And you saw that a little bit with Mitchell and Harden in this series where Mitchell would have stretches where he's like, kind of leaning a lot on Harden because Mitchell's just really struggling and Cade really has no choice but to figure it out. And one of the things that I thought was fascinating in that first round series was, like, Kate had really bad stretches, but he just kept going and he just kept attacking because, again, he had no choice but to continue to be aggressive because he was the only guy. So, like, to me, like, Cade's gonna have easier perimeter defenders to go against and plenty of time over the course of the series, especially with home court advantage, to kind of figure out where he wants to attack. Like, I, I, I think Kate's easily the best player in this series, and I think he's going to be awesome.
- [42:08]
Jackson
I agree. And what you just said reminds me, takes me back to this is bring a little PTSD for me. But Tyrese Maxey's press conference last night after the game, when he said that once, jt, I feel like I got a little bit misconstrued by some people as taking a shot. I don't think he was taking a shot at all. He said, once JT was out, we thought this series would be even harder because the Celtics would play way more free. Like you saw, Derek White took 16 threes. He was just letting shit go. He had no worries in the world. And it's the exact and reminded me exactly what you were doing. Just saying about Cade where he has no choice. He has just got to go and go and go. And a bad stretch does not mean he's just got to keep going. And I think he's Definitely the best player in the series, and I think that's probably why I personally am leading Detroit.
- [42:48]
John Hollinger
Yeah, like, if, if he's 1 for 11 in the first half and they're down by 13 points, he's got to come out and take 15 shots in the second half.
- [42:57]
Jackson
Absolutely.
- [42:58]
John Hollinger
He has no choice. So, like, yeah, like, I, I, I even think for Tobias, although Tobias is going to run into a lot of Evan Mobley, I'm sure in this series, and that'll be an of wrinkle. But, But Kade's gonna have some real size advantages. Like, whether it's like, kind of upright, skinny guys like Dean Wade, where I think Cade's gonna, like, really be able to get angles on him, or a lot of dudes that are in that, like Sam Merrill, Max Stru, Jalen Tyson range, where he's like 2, 3 inches taller than all of them. And whereas, like, when he would struggle in the Orlando series, it was like Franz Wagner on the ball, like, doing really, really good work, you know, like, it just, it's a physical mismatch in so many different position groups for Cleveland in this series.
- [43:40]
Jackson
Yeah, we got a question about how do you think the teams are going to match up and who's going to guard who? I also have, like, sort of a more specific question, which is Cleveland and James Harden and Donovan Mitchell are just dramatically better at attacking mismatches than anyone Orlando had. Right.
- [43:57]
John Hollinger
So that's true.
- [43:58]
Jackson
Because of that is what, what's the Duncan Robinson situation? Like, how playable is Duncan Robinson? Because he feels so crucial to them offensively right now? And I thought, he's been playing. He played really well in the first round overall, but you don't want that dude guarding James Harden.
- [44:12]
John Hollinger
Yeah, you know, I thought a lot about that, too, as soon as I started to talk about the matchups, and it's like, okay, who's a Sar Thompson guarding? And I think where it gets tricky is, like, I would play. Do you guys remember. Some of you guys might remember this when we talked about the game plan for Phoenix against Minnesota in the first round, like, three years ago, but they had this really interesting game plan for the Mike Conley Anthony Edwards dynamic, where with Ant they were playing at the level because they wanted to turn it into a passer. But then with Mike, they were playing deep drop because they wanted to turn Mike into a score. And it didn't matter because Minnesota just physically mauled Phoenix and played in transition and, and dunked all over Bradley Beal harder than anybody's ever dunked on Anybody, and that was the end of it. But I kind of imagine a similar kind of game plan where I think I would deploy a SAR on James and not switch anything with him and just be like, we're running deep drop with James. And I'm. And I'll be like, let's see how well you score against our drop coverage with the SAR Thompson all over you, right?
- [45:26]
Jackson
How many floaters are you gonna hit, dude?
- [45:28]
John Hollinger
Yeah. And then with Donovan, I throw the kitchen sink at him, and I'd be like, okay, if it ends up being Tobias as the initial arcade, let's say it's Cade. Like, I'd even just go to Cade and I'd be like, you guard Don. And then just any screen, I'm just that guy's trapping or that guy's coming up to the level. And I'm basically going to force Donovan to be a passer all series long and count on my ability to rotate. And then I'm gonna have James Harden have to deal with the SAR Thompson on the ball all series long. And I. I think that's the way that I would do it. I do want to dive into the film, though, again, because, like, there's some wrinkles there that could get tricky. So, for instance, like, a SAR Thompson was really, really good. Off ball in the first round is like a rim protector. And if you deploy him on James, that kind of mitigates that element of his defense. But I think there are other guys that could fill into that role. And to your point, I think, like, I wouldn't be surprised if over the course of the series, it went from. From Duncan to more of like a Caris Lavert in. Lavert's guarding Donovan in a similar kind of like, we're. We're hedging or showing hard on screens to try to get the ball out of Donovan's hands. But we're, like, faster and like, I. Duncan's spacing was a lot more important. Same goes for Dana. The spacing is more important when you can't bully people. But I really think Detroit's going to be able to manufacture points even in a packed paint in this series just by going through people's chests. And so I think they're going to need Duncan a little less in this series than they did in previous series. Next question.
- [47:04]
Jackson
We're going to move on from this series. We got a fun question. Do you think 2018 LeBron James on this current Lakers team would. Could beat the Thunder? Or is the gap just too big even for that?
- [47:15]
John Hollinger
It's Too big. It's too big. I like 2018 LeBron is the best basketball player that I've ever laid eyes on. But like, we are talking about a dramatic talent mismatch down the line. And like, I don't think Shea is as good as 2018 LeBron, but he's in the stratosphere. Like, it's not like the 2018 LeBron over Shea is such a dramatic advantage that it's impossible to overcome. And so, like, as much as I'd love to, to. To channel the. The inner bronze stand there, I. I just don't think that, that, that that would cut it.
- [47:54]
Jackson
That's funny. Next question, which series? Well, I guess we probably have an answer to the first part of this question, but which series do you expect to be the shortest next round and which series do you expect to be the longest?
- [48:03]
John Hollinger
Yes to the next round. I think Minnesota San Antonio is going to go long. I think Philly New York's going to go long. I think that Lakers Rockets or Lakers Thunder will be fast. And I think that. I think that Pistons Cavs might be the second fastest. Like, if you told me the Pistons beat the Cavs in five games, I would not be surprised. I'll probably, if I pick them, I'm probably going to pick them in six. But like, if you told me they won games one, two, four and five, I would not be surprised.
- [48:36]
Jackson
Last question for the night. A little bit of a step back from the playoffs because there's been a lot of conversation about Steve Kerr recently in the warriors recently. What do you think the warriors off season should look like? Do you want them to bring to or not? Do you want them to. Do you think they should bring back her and extend Draymond and sort of try to just retool around this sort of core or sort of move in a big, big new direction. Keep Steph theoretic, obviously, but like new coach sort of new direction.
- [49:00]
John Hollinger
So I don't think there's any. I mean, you can tell me if you disagree, but I don't think they have a young player that's a foundational young player. Like, Pods is a good player, but he's not a foundational young player. So the truth of the matter is, is like, when Steph is gone, you're going to be really bad. Like, really extraordinarily bad. So there is no like. So like let's say for instance, you kept coming. You could talk me into like, hey, let's sit down with Steve and be like, hey, dude, you get to Keep coaching the team. But Kaminga has a mandatory minimum of, you know, 32 minutes a game and all that. Right. And force him to try to develop something there. But as you and I both believe, like, I know we had a bunch of Kaminga stands on our case after those two good playoff games, but then he was really bad in the next two. And frankly, or the next three, I should say. And frankly, like, I didn't think Kamingo was a foundational level. A level player either.
- [49:55]
Jackson
Right.
- [49:55]
John Hollinger
So with that being the case, I do think that you need a foundational player, therefore you can't really start trading first round picks. But I would go talent hunting on the more aggressive side with older stars. So like, and I think I'd be willing to spend like one first. So like, for instance, if you could, if you could go get like kd, if you could go get Kawhi, if you could somehow convince LeBron to sign on a discount, like, those are the kinds of guys where like, I'd go star hunting with them, but I wouldn't move multiple picks for Giannis. I wouldn't sacrifice like a first round pick for a role player. I would go star hunting with like maybe one pick. I do. Did you see the report that Steve's most likely coming back? Like, I think the reporting has been
- [50:47]
Jackson
so all over the place with that, but yeah, I think you'll be back.
- [50:49]
John Hollinger
Yeah, yeah, yeah. And, and frankly, with Steve Kerr, like, it may. I think it would be weird to watch the Steph Curry team coached without Steve Kerr. And like, so, like, I think it's okay to sit down and be like, all right, dude, this, we run no ball screens and all we do is run pinch post and, and flex, flex cuts and, you know, like split cuts and all of this Chicago action and everything's off ball action thing that just can lead to a lot of turnovers and can struggle to allow the modern young on ball player to get comfortable kind of thing. I think there's some truth to the fact that Steve needs to be more amenable to kind of running more spread pick and roll, running more stack. Like, this is a team that should be running a lot of stack with Steph Curry on the ball or Steph Curry setting the back screen. Like, this is a team that probably needs to evolve a little bit offensively, but I think you can get Steve on board with that. And so like, I was, I was secretly this whole time hoping Steve would come back.
- [51:51]
Jackson
I agree. And on the, I think I'm in a similar place with the first round of picks. Like, I think if Steve Kerr is coming back, I just. By the way that we understand the organization, I assume that means Steph Curry is like, I want Steve Kerr back. We. Let's. We need to bring back Steve Kerr, right?
- [52:05]
John Hollinger
Yeah.
- [52:05]
Jackson
And so if that's happening, then you know that Steph Curry is bought in for 1, 2, 3 years, however many years that is. Then I would go to Steph Curry and be like, how long do you want to play for this organization? Because as long as you're playing for this organization, where I'm comfortable, trading first round picks during that timeline will be my approach. If we have Steph Curry playing and he looks very good, I would. I say, you think you're going to be here through 27 and 28, then we are. Then I'm comfortable trading 27 and 28 first round picks. And I'm not Steph. Sorry, bro, but I'm not trading picks beyond when you're going to be here. Yeah, I think that seems like a pretty reasonable compromise to be like, let's try to. We don't have beyond Steph Curry after this. I like pods. I, they're going to be bad when Steph Curry retires. So I would try to bring back the, the guys that we know can play well together, tweak some stuff at the margins, try to upgrade with a first round pick or two, depending on how far down the road you feel comfortable going. I think I would be comfortable trading first round picks for seasons that Steph Curry is on the roster.
- [53:01]
John Hollinger
Personally. Yeah, I, I think that that's a good way to put it. Like that way, if they do decide to quote, unquote, tank under whatever the new version of tanking looks like, they own their draft picks after the fact. But you have some semblance of a competitive roster in the short term. I think, I think that makes sense to me. And like, actually, let me, let me put it to you this way. If Kevin Durant did become available this summer, would you consider going after him for sure?
- [53:30]
Jackson
Yeah, absolutely.
- [53:31]
John Hollinger
It'd be hard to find a player that would make sense for Houston under the circumstances. Yeah, but like, I, I think Houston's probably gonna go the other way and trade Shangoon for Giannis. That's what I like. I just have this feeling like that that's what they're gonna do. But, but yeah, like there's. I, I think if they ended up with one of the Kawhi LeBron KD trio, that would, that would make for a really fun next season. All right, guys, that's all we have for tonight. As always, we sincerely appreciate you guys for supporting us and supporting the show. We have a couple of episodes coming out tomorrow. I'm gonna do a new contender rankings that kind of reflects, like, hey, two of our top four contenders are eliminated, so we kind of need to talk about what that means and how all these other teams stack up. So I'm gonna do a contender rankings tomorrow morning and then I'm gonna do a series preview on Cavs Pistons. So we'll those two videos will both come out at some point during the day. I already recorded Lakers Thunder. That's coming out, I think at 6:00am Pacific Time tomorrow. So that'll be out relatively early tomorrow. And then I think that's it for series previews. We did Nick's Sixers earlier today. If you haven't seen that, that's a little bit further back on the feed. And then we're right back at it. Tonight was our, what, 15th consecutive night, and so tomorrow will be number 16. We'll be right back at it with a very bizarre overlap schedule tonight or tomorrow night and Tuesday, for whatever reason, the games kind of overlap. So bear with me. In terms of like, actually being able to cover both games in full detail, that's going to be something that gets a little tricky. But we will be live after the final buzzer of Wolves spurs Tomorrow Night on YouTube. I will see you guys then.
- [55:15]
Liberty Mutual Announcer
Liberty Mutual customizes your car and home insurance. And now we're customizing this rush hour ad to keep you calm, which could help your driving. And science says therapy is great for a healthy mindset. So enjoy this 14 second session on us. I think you've done everything right and absolutely nothing wrong. In fact, anything that hasn't gone your way could probably be blamed on your father not being emotionally available because his father wasn't emotionally available, and so on. And now that you're calm and healing, you're probably driving better, too.
- [55:42]
iHeart Podcast Promos
Liberty. Liberty. Liberty. Liberty.
- [55:46]
Superhuman Podcast Narrator
Imagine an Olympics where doping is not only legal, but encouraged. It's the enhanced Games. Some call it grotesque. Others say it's unleashing human potential. Either way, the podcast Superhuman documented it all, embedded in the games and with the athletes for a full year.
- [56:03]
John Hollinger
Within probably 10 days, I'd put on £10. I was having trouble stopping the muscle growth.
- [56:09]
Superhuman Podcast Narrator
Listen to Superhuman on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
- [56:16]
iHeart Podcast Promos
This is Saigon, the story of my family and of the country that shaped us.
- [56:21]
John Hollinger
From iheart Podcasts Saigon. You don't think I'm serious about a free Vietnam? One city, a divided country and the war that tore America apart.
- [56:30]
Michael Easter
This is for Vietnam.
- [56:31]
iHeart Podcast Promos
They're pouring petrol all over here.
- [56:33]
John Hollinger
Freedom for Vietnam. There's a fire coming to this country, and it's going to burn out everything. Listen to Saigon on the Island Radio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.
- [56:45]
iHeart Podcast Promos
Your husband is not who you think he is. Your body is not what you thought it was. Your identity is formed by a secret history. I'm Dani Shapiro, and these are just a few of the stunning stories I'll be exploring on the 14th season of Family Secrets. He kind of shoved me out of the way and said, move. And he went out the front door and he jumped in a car and drove off. And that was the last time I saw him. Listen to season 14 of Family Secrets, starting May 7 on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. This is an iHeart podcast.
- [57:18]
John Hollinger
Guaranteed Human.