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The Herd with Colin Cowherd
Hoops Tonight - Kevin O'Connor on how SGA broke Pacers defense + how Haliburton can succeed vs. Thunder | NBA Finals
00:49:24
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- [00:00]
Ryan Seacrest
This is an iHeart podcast.
- [00:04]
Jason
AI is redefining what's possible for your business. With more unique challenges to solve and higher stakes than ever, Microsoft helps you stay ahead. Our trustworthy AI tools and guidance can empower leaders like you to drive greater impact. And with Azure's simplified platform management, we're helping businesses go further and faster by unlocking up to 150% improved output. Whatever challenges come next, let Microsoft help you keep pushing forward. For more details, visit Microsoft.com challengers@&t has a new guarantee because most things in life are not guaranteed. Like getting through self checkout by yourself. Not guaranteed. But when it comes to your wireless connectivity, now that should be guaranteed. And with AT&T guarantee it actually is. AT&T is introducing a guarantee with connectivity that you can depend on, deals you want and service you deserve or they make it right. Learn more@att.com guarantee ATT Connecting changes everything. Terms and conditions apply. Visit att.com guarantee for details.
- [01:07]
Tom Brokaw
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- [01:35]
Lester Holt
NBC Nightly News Legacy isn't handed down or NBC News.
- [01:39]
Tom Yamas
I'm Tom Brokaw. We hope to see you back here.
- [01:41]
Lester Holt
I'm Lester Holt. It's carried forward. Tom Yamaz is there for us.
- [01:45]
Jason
Firefighters are still working around the clock.
- [01:47]
Lester Holt
As the world changes, we look for what endures.
- [01:49]
Jason
We are coming on the air with breaking news right now we look for.
- [01:52]
Lester Holt
A constant and from one era to the next.
- [01:56]
Jason
Trust is the anchor for NBC Nightly News.
- [01:58]
Kevin O'Connor
I'm Tom Yamas. A new chapter begins.
- [02:01]
Lester Holt
NBC Nightly News with Tom Yamas. Evenings on NBC.
- [02:06]
Jason
The volume.
- [02:10]
The NBA Finals are here. This is your last chance to bet on the NBA until next season. And DraftKings Sportsbook, an official sports betting partner of the NBA is pulling out all the stops to make this a finals to remember. One team will be crowned champ and the other will be lost to history. Who you got winning it all? Put your hoops expertise to the test. All season long DraftKings has been the go to spot for NBA player props and that doesn't stop now. Who's going to carry their team to the chip? Try placing a Bet on your personal MVP to drop 30, 40, or maybe even over 50. Ready to place your own bet? Download the DraftKings sportsbook app, lock in your bets and finish the season as a winner. Here's something special for first timers. New DraftKings customers bet $5 to get $300 in bonus bets. If your bet wins, don't miss your last chance to bet on the NBA this season. Download the DraftKings sportsbook app and use code hoops. That's H O O P S. That's code hoops for new customers to get $300 in bonus bets. If your bet wins when you bet five bucks only on DraftKings, the crown is yours. Gambling problem. Call 1-800-GAMBLER in New York. Call 877-8-HOPENY or text HOPENY to 467-369 in Connecticut. Help is available for problem gambling. Call 888-789-7777 or visit ccpg.org Please play responsibly on behalf of Boothill Casino and Resort in Kansas. 21 plus. Age and eligibility varies by jurisdiction. Void in Ontario. Bet must win to receive reward. Minimum minus 500 odds required bonus bets expire 168 hours after issuance. For additional terms and responsible gaming resources, see DKNG co audio. All right, welcome to Hoops Tonight here at the Volume. Happy Monday, everybody. Hope all you guys had a great, great weekend. Well, I texted Kevin o' Connor last week to see if he could get him on to talk some NBA finals. And in the text message I said, fingers crossed for 1:1. And here we are, 1:1 as the Pacers did some Pacer things on Thursday last week to get us into a 11 matchup. Lots of interesting stuff to get into. What I want to do today is just kind of zoom out from the first two games and talk about some of the biggest dynamics that are swinging the series one way or another. Kevin's been someone that I've admired from afar. I've been lucky to come on his show a couple of times. First appearance here on Hoops tonight, one of my favorite people covering the game, Kevin. How are you, man?
- [04:49]
Lester Holt
I'm doing excellent, Jason. It's an honor to be on your show. What you've built is so awesome. You get that YouTube plaque rewarded with that, with all the hard work you guys and your team have done. Yeah. So it's cool to be on your show. Thanks for having me.
- [05:02]
Jason
Yeah, it's weird. I'm, like, irrationally excited about the plaque, but I wonder if that's just like our generation and just like the different types of things that we get excited about. Like, it's so funny. It's just like, you know, a little foam plaque. But it's something that I.
- [05:14]
Lester Holt
It's a physical reward. It's better than just like an email. It's like something physical that you can feel and touch. It's awesome that they still do that.
- [05:21]
Jason
Yeah, exactly. We were talking before the show. I wanted to quickly ask you. So obviously you do a lot of draft work in addition to covering the league at large. And this year's draft is just so much more talent heavy at the top. And so do you actually enjoy drafts like, this year more in terms of like, the workflow, or do you enjoy drafts like last year where you don't have the obvious stuff at the top, but, like, there's so much to get into with, like the high variance guys down the list. What has that been like for you?
- [05:54]
Lester Holt
I mean, I think for me, like, I enjoy it all equally in terms of, like, my side of things because it's. There's stars in every draft. Like, it's just like there's always going to be guys that end up being stars. So how do you find those guys? Who are the. It's always fun debating who are the guys you like more than other people, who are the people that you like less than others and why. It's like last night I watched like every single Dylan Harper miss and I tracked where he missed. I tracked like that he missed long, short, left, right, backboard. Like, I like doing that stuff. That's fun to do for me regardless of the quality of the draft. But it is more fun when more people care about the draft and more people care about the draft when there's prizes in the draft and Cooper Flag being a prize at the top. Dylan Harper, a lot of people do consider a prize. I'm not quite there with him being some generational guard. I think he's really good. But I think next year, in 2026 is really going to be probably the most fun draft class that I've ever covered. I've been doing draft coverage since 2013. My first draft guide was in 2014. But like, next year, man, like, there's like three or four number one pick quality guys. Cam Boozer at Duke, Darren Peterson at Kansas, and then AJ DeBonsa, a native of Brockton, Massachusetts, where I'm from, going to BYU, at least those three. And so like, next year, I think is going to be insane with all three of those guys in College basketball, all playing for big schools as well. Byu, big time on the rise. So I think next year could be like the peak of my draft coverage and all the years I've been doing it. But it's fun for me personally, every single year.
- [07:31]
Jason
No, I totally agree. Like, there's, I find joy in doing projects that don't perform super well too, just because we love our jobs and there's, and there's, you know, joy.
- [07:40]
Lester Holt
You're telling me Dylan Harper, Ms. This is being tracked, isn't going to perform well.
- [07:46]
Jason
The, the funny thing though is like, like, it's, I was so pleased. Like we, we ended up hitting a pretty big number after game one of the, of this series. And like, that just made me so happy because I was like, first of all, it's like Thunder Pacers, you know, it's this like relatively small market matchup and it's ultimately our job is fun when people care. And so I totally get that. Like, it's like you can find joy in the minutia and we're never going to stop doing that stuff. But there's no doubt that when the people it, it gets to be a ton of fun. Kevin does great work covering the draft. Make sure you guys follow him on Twitter. And is your draft guide out yet? Officially?
- [08:21]
Lester Holt
Yeah, Draft guide is on Yahoo. Sports, so you can find it. Just, you know, it should be pinned on my profile on social media. But just search Kevin O' Connor, NBA Draft Guide 2025, whoever your favorite search engine is, and it'll pop up.
- [08:35]
Jason
So moving to the series, the, the number one dynamic that I have found to be most fascinating between the first two games is Shay Gilders Alexander in his overall approach. Was there anything that stood out to you in particular from the first two games in just the way that Shea approached generating shots for his team?
- [08:57]
Lester Holt
You know, I, I felt like he was playing a bit more to his speed in game too, but I, I, I kind of disagreed with, you know, Doris Burke on the broadcast said Shay was being over aggressive during game one. I disagreed with that. I felt like the game required it from him. His teammates shot 25 of 68 in game one, 37%. Like, pretty horrible. I felt like they needed 30 shots from Shea in game one, whereas in game two, obviously he got to the line a little bit more. He took only 21 shots, not 30 shots. But his teammates also shot significantly better. So I, I, I felt like he gave OKC what they needed in Game 1, but I do feel like he came out in game two. With a bit more pace on his end of things, on top of some of the tactical changes, you know, logo, logo, pick and rolls further out, you know, more post ups and all that. Like I, I, I, I was okay with his game one performance though. So I, I, I didn't really subscribe to some of the criticism of him in game one.
- [10:00]
Jason
This is awesome because we disagree. So that will make for a fun little debate here off the top. So like I, I agree in general with the idea that there are times especially for a scoring archetype and I would argue that the playmaking archetypes over the years, the yokich is the LeBron's, the, the Halliburton types. There are situations where they kind of need to be more aggressive than they are because their teammates aren't super comfortable. I did think that Shea played a little bit of a role in his team going out of rhythm in the first game just simply with like, I'll give you an example. There was a play where in the, it was in like the, I think it was in the late first quarter last night where he's in a ball screen and he's attacking Thomas Bryant and Hartenstein just wipes out Aaron Neesmith on the screen and he comes downhill and he has Thomas Bryant and kind of like a drop coverage and he's got a pretty good look at like a little pull up 17 footer around the right elbow area. But TJ McConnell's kind of sagging in off of Chet off of the left wing and he's sitting behind Thomas Bryant just right off of that like left handed drive. So it's like he's not there bothering the pull up shot, but he's making it so that the drive, he couldn't like, couldn't like snake to pick and roll to try to get back over to his left hand or anything like that. And instead he just throws a little pitch out to Chet Holmgren on the left wing and TJ McConnell closes out, he pump fakes, he runs past him and he ends up hitting a three. And it felt to me like that was a little, that was a pull up jump shot that both him and J Dub were just taking in game one, that like kind of 15 to 17 on the shot clock type of, of like decent shot that we know he can make. And I remember in the moment, you know what's so interesting, Kevin? I remember in the moment watching game one being like, like, oh, like Shay's attacking the finals. Like he is, he is not letting himself, you know, shrink or Feel uncomfortable. He's like, I'm going to find a way to get comfortable out here by taking these shots that I know that I can make. And I thought that just in general, his approach was a little bit more geared towards hunting advantages in game two versus hunting his shot. There were some pretty significant differences in the Numbers. They had a 96 offensive rating in the half court in game one. They had a 116 half court offensive rating in game two. Now obviously, as we know, part of that is just guys knocking down shots, but they also generated more. They generated 23 unguarded catch and shoot jump shots in game two. Just 15 in game one. As a team, they threw 232 passes in game two compared to 207 passes in game one. I did think he in general just kind of like let the game come to him a little bit more, which allowed him to. Again, this stuff is a lot, in a lot of cases, like, like super supernatural in terms of discussing when we're talking about rhythm and flow and it's like, it's very difficult to quantify these things and, and it's always going to be a certain amount of like, subjectivity and it's up for debate. But I did think that Shay just in general made a bit, a little bit more of an effort to kind of keep the ball popping around some quicker decisions, some of those reads earlier in the clock, taking some of those tougher mid range jump shots in later clock situations or as a counter sprinkling in aggression just to keep the defense honest. But like, at the same time, I did think his floor game was a little bit better. That said, I do agree with you that there, the, the young guys were more comfortable in this game and that certainly helps. And a lot of the times, you know, these guys will react based on what their personality traits are. Like when Shay sees his teammate struggling, he's going to think pat, he's going to think shoot the ball, right? Just like when Tyrese sees his teammate struggling, he's going to confront the issue by trying to pass the ball more. So like I, I guess my take is just that I thought that he kind of was more of an active participant in the team's rhythm in game two.
- [14:05]
Lester Holt
I mean, I think, I think like what you're hitting on, like the supernatural aspect, you know, the feel and like it's these things like you can't understand by just looking at the numbers, right? Cause if you look at the numbers, which I have, game one, he made 38 passes. His teammates shot 2 of 11 on the assist opportunities in game two, he made 39 passes. His teammates shot 8 of 15 on assist opportunities. So like his teammates shot better off of his passes in Game 2. They shot horribly in Game 1, whether he was passing the ball or somebody else was passing them the ball or they were self created shots. But to your point, like that's where I think you and I agree is that I did feel he was just more comfortable in game two. He was just more comfortable, whether that was due to his approach in the game, to your point, coming out early, looking for his teammates, most of his passes in game one came in the second, third and fourth quarters. Not as much the first quarter setting a tone for his team looking to pass or whether it was due to game planning as well because OKC was sitting screens further out. More logo, logo, pick and rolls where, you know, you have Indiana going over screens in those situations where I feel like maybe you want to go under when it's that far out and you have him posting up a handful of times as well. Like I feel that's where I feel the biggest difference is that I thought in game one there, there wasn't as much variety as there was in game two from Shea because like I mentioned this on my podcast last night, I had Adam out as from all NBA on and like him and I were talking about, yeah, Adam's the best. And like him and I were talking about SGA as well. And like I mentioned to him, you know, there's this one play in the late mid or late third quarter where SGA split a pick and roll. Hartenstein was on the short roll. He found him immediately because he was, you know, SGA got pressured, he split the pick and roll. Then Hartenstein found Caruso on a cup. But then the next play, SGA got posted up on the left block and OKC cleared out everything for him. He drew attention, kicked it out, OKC swung it around the horn and found Caruso in the right corner for three. So it's like I feel OKC put him in different spots on the floor more often and. And maybe these things are all connected where like him looking for the pass more is in part due to some game planning here with putting him in different areas of the floor versus Indiana, kind of knowing what Indiana was doing in Game 1, as Dagnall called it after Game 1. It was a feel out game and maybe that's where SGA felt it out and he just felt overall more comfortable and the game planning was better and the teammates just made more shots.
- [16:46]
Jason
Yeah, you know, it's interesting because I, I did the same thing. I was like, I was like, I'm, I'm feeling this strong kind of vibe that Shea's hunting his opportunities more as a passer in game two. So I wanted to check the numbers and I saw the same stuff you did in terms of like the passing numbers being the same. And my rationalization was that with. That was exactly what you said, which is if in game one, I think he took 11 shots in the first quarter. I actually thought Shea made all of the kickout reads in the fourth quarter of that game. Like, Shay was fantastic in the fourth quarter of that game, getting dribble penetration through those guard, guard action or hitting the guy slipping out of the action and like the Pacers were throwing sometimes two, three dudes helping at the basket and he was making the kick out passes. He did make those passes. The difference to me was in game two, he started the game that way. And I've just always been a believer that if you invest in rhythm basically early in the game, if you target these opportunities so guys feel comfortable, there's just more of an opportunity for them to be comfortable throughout the game. That said, love a good disagreement, love a good argument. I, I love the other stuff you hit on. Like, I thought the left block post ups were like a huge development in game two. It just, it puts the ball in Shay's dominant hand, so it's really easy for him to pass out of that. And like when he gets into single coverage, he was able to draw fouls or score against Nemhard and, and, and Matheran, but at the same time he was able to use it as just a easy vehicle with which to get the defense in rotation. I. The part I want to zoom in on. And I also just thought, I, I thought you mentioned this too in your bit. The, like, just in general, like, it felt like they were more willing to have Shea sit off ball and let other people run action, which was another part, like there was a. Of play in the late second quarter or late first quarter where like, it's like Shay's just literally standing off ball while Isaiah Joe's running action with Hartenstein. You know what I mean? Like, they were just a little bit more willing to let other people get involved in the offense. And I thought that that was contagious and that it just kind of flowed down the roster. As far as the, the pick and roll coverages go, this is where I think it gets fascinating. So whenever we're having these discussions, we have to Lead with saying there is no good way to guard Shay. He's just incredible because like any alternative that we're going to throw out here is going to come with its own set of issues. But one of the things that stood out to me in game one, I thought in the second half they were a little bit softer in their pick and roll coverages, which is why Shea started to get some of his stuff in drop coverage. But everything at the level in this series I think has been brutal for Indiana in the two problems, I should say the three problems that they keep having is one, Shea rejecting screens. So when they bring up whoever it is, whether it's Toppin or Turner or Thomas Bryant, that guy's setting up to get on the side of the screen that they're expecting Shay to go and then when he rejects the screen, there's nobody there. Four on three or they'll throw that hard hedge or switch with that guy and he'll quickly split that. Now they're gone. Four on three or the dude will slip out of it and he throws the pass over the top and it's four on three. So to Shay's credit, he has butchered this coverage with his ability to generate the four on threes. Do you think Indiana needs to consider pivoting to a different coverage to try to have a better chance to contain Sha?
- [20:01]
Lester Holt
Is this why we started to see a little bit of zone, you think? Is that possible? Indiana sprinkling that in a little bit in the middle of the third quarter? Because Indiana, they don't really run zone at all. But then again neither did Minnesota, neither did Denver, and then Denver, like a third of their possessions in the half court were zone defense. I think for Minnesota it was like like 10% of their possessions in the half court were zone defense. Against Oklahoma City, with Indiana entering this series, I believe the number was they had three total possessions of playing zone. Those are like sideline out of bounds plays. Occasion when they would do that. So like, but after makes in the third quarter for a short stretch, they're a playing zone. Is that why you think? Possibly because of the issues with regardless of whatever the type of coverage they're using against shape, pick and rolls, that that could be the answer.
- [20:55]
Tom Yamas
Blending Vice's signature dynamic storytelling with the high octane world of sports, Vice Sports brings an exciting and diverse range of programming that goes beyond the game. From action packed live events to gripping behind the scenes documentaries, to hard hitting investigative pieces and in depth profiles of athletes, coaches, teams, Vice Sports captures the raw energy, drama and passion that makes sports truly unforgettable. Catch live events and other exclusive sports programs Only on Vice TV. Go to Vicetv.com to find your cable channel.
- [21:28]
Jason
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- [22:21]
Zoe Saldana
Welcome to T Mobile. Here's your new iPhone 16 Pro on us.
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Jason
Thanks. And here's my old phone to trade in.
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Zoe Saldana
You don't need to trade in. When you switch to T Mobile, we'll give you a new iPhone 16 Pro plus we'll help you pay off your old Phone up to 800 bucks and you still get to keep it.
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Jason
There's always a trade in.
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Zoe Saldana
Not right now. AT T Mobile I feel like I.
- [22:38]
Jason
Have to give you something in return for karma.
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Zoe Saldana
That's okay.
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Jason
I don't really have much in my purse. Oh, let's see. Hand sanitizer. It's lavender.
- [22:46]
Zoe Saldana
I'm good. Seriously.
- [22:47]
Jason
Let me check this pocket. Oh, mints.
- [22:50]
Zoe Saldana
Really, I'm fine.
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Jason
Oh, I have raisins. I'm a mom. Wait, wait one sec. I've got cupcakes in the car.
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Tom Brokaw
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Jason
We'll even pay off your phone up.
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Kevin O'Connor
To 800 bucks with 24 monthly bill credits. New line 100 plus a month on experience beyond Finance Agreement 999.99 and qualifying ported for well qualified plus tax and $10 connection charge. Pay off the virtual prepaid card. Allow 15 days credits end and balance due if you pay off earlier.
- [23:18]
Jason
Cancel CT mobile.com@&t has a new guarantee because most things in life are not guaranteed. Like actually getting the rental car you requested or your wedding turning out just like you dreamed it would and someone making another pot of Coffee in the break room after drinking the last drop of the last one. Yeah, don't get me started. Not guaranteed. In a world where Nothing is guaranteed, AT&T is bringing something new to the table, AT&T is introducing a guarantee with connectivity. You can depend on deals you want and service you deserv or they make it right. So if you want to know more about the AT&T guarantee, head to att.com/guarantee. AT&T connecting changes everything. Terms and conditions apply. Visit att.com/guarantee for details.
- [24:02]
Ryan Seacrest
Hey, it's Ryan Seacrest for Albertsons and Safeway, now through June 24. Score hot summer savings and earn four times the points. Look for in store tags on items like Starbucks ground coffee, Red Bull energy drinks, Spam Classic Planet oat milk, Shar Garmin bath tissue, Totino's pizza rolls, and Frito Lay chips. Then clip the offer in the app for automatic event long savings. Shop in store or online for easy drive up and go pickup or delivery subject to availability restrictions apply. Visit Albertsons or Safeway.com for more details.
- [24:32]
Jason
So I think that in general, having a plan for penetrate penetration is the move. Now, that could be Zone because, like, if we look at it so, like, what are the alternatives? So if they're showing high, whether that's a hedge or it's a ball screen coverage with their, with their bigs, you're giving up these four on threes because you have two guys that are out way out by the perimeter, right? So, like, in theory, you could try, like, more of a softer switch. You could try a deeper drop. There's all these, like, different things you can try. To me, the softer switch, the deeper drop in particular, at the very least, you're going five on four instead of four on three. Meaning, like, as he comes off the screen, you have one of those two guys who was originally assigned to Shay at least back, trying to help facilitate your plan for dealing with him. Zone is another way to do that. The thing that scares me with Zone and we, we did see last night both teams score against the Zone in the brief situations where we saw it. But I like, I think OKC has been really good against Zone in this postseason, too. And like, that's the thing is, like, we're talking about a really good basketball team that quite frankly, like, for all the stuff that we've talked about Oklahoma City being young and inexperienced over the years, every puzzle that's been placed in front of them in this postseason run, they've eventually solved. They've had their issues for briefs, brief stretches, but they've eventually solved. It's even like game one. Like game one, it's the super aggressive help on drives and they have a rough offensive night and they solve it one night later, you know, so it's like at this certain point, I don't know that there is a, an an easy answer, but at this point, this is what I keep coming back to. If you're gonna get beat up there anyway, like if you're gonna get dribble penetration, might as well have it function as a one on one rather than a one on two. Meaning like have that fourth defender back instead of having these like two man down situations where Shay just toasted someone off the dribble and now niece Smith and Turner are standing up at the top of the key trying to rotate out of it. So like I guess, I guess it comes down to just whether it's zone, whether it's a deeper drop functioning in a way where you keep that fourth defender in a position to help and rotate.
- [26:48]
Lester Holt
Yeah, and I think that's going to be the puzzle for Indiana really in the series. And as you said, OKC is a good team. Maybe they're an all time team. Like they're 68 win regular season team. They've had an unbelievable postseason. They very well, this might be the start of something special. We'll see how the series continues. But that's the issue for Indiana in this entire series. As it was for Minnesota, as it was for Denver. And don't forget they destroyed Memphis as well in the first round. But like there just may not be real answers for Oklahoma City with their amount of guys who can generate offense off the dribble. Because it doesn't need to just be sga. You said it earlier. Other guys are getting opportunities to create in Game 2 for the Thunder, but every guy on that floor can do something with the ball in their hands or they can do something in motion. Like even Caruso, he wasn't just hitting like standstill threes in game two. Like some of them were off of movement and that's Alex Caruso. And then you have Jalen Williams and Chet Holmgren who had terrible game ones. J dub a bit better I thought in game two. Chad Holmgren was awesome after a really rough start for him in game two. He was great the rest of the game. But like every guy on that roster, even Aaron Wiggins can do something off the dribble. So it's like even if you do, even if you contain sga, there's somebody else on this OKC team, regardless of the lineup Dagnault has out there that can do something with the ball in their hands. Even Isaiah Hartenstein on the short roll can dribble once or twice to get to the cup or make the smart pass. That that's what makes them really, I think, an impossible puzzle to solve. And sometimes like, I know it's like very like simple to say that that's where the zone, I think you force them to become a three point shooting team, that their frequency of threes goes over 50% when you're, when you play zone defense against them, you're just gambling that they have an off shooting night when you do that because you're, you're giving up open threes. You're just hoping and praying that they have a poor shooting night. So that's what I think Minnesota and Denver, especially the Nuggets kind of gambled on doing because OKC is going to shred you either, either way. But I do wonder if that's what we'll see from Indiana because everything you said, Jason, about you know, man coverages or pick and roll coverages, like there's no, there's no real, there's no real answer against the Thunder.
- [29:13]
Jason
And Shay, like Shay is not the most vertical, poppy athlete that you'll ever watch, but his ability to change direction and like go from stopped to full speed is truly remarkable. And like, because that's the thing, like people don't realize, like they're not sending these dudes up to the level because they're worried about the pull up three. That's not what they're doing. Like Shay's not a good enough pull up three point shooter to justify that. They're doing that to try to stop him from getting ahead of steam and it's just not working. And like the other problem is is you could sit back all you want, but he's just going to go at that dude full speed and probably draw fouls or end up getting around him anyway. Like, he's just a huge pain and like the same sort of at the level coverages. J Dub was torching too. Like Chet attacking off the bounce and this game did a lot of, a lot more work off the bounce. I, I thought he was unbelievable defensively last night too. I was watching the film like his switching and like he was getting stops on Halliburton, he was getting stops on McConnell, he was getting stops on Mather and he was getting like it was, he is so, so, so good. It's crazy to me. My Guess is that what Rick Carlisle will do is go into game three maybe with something involving a little bit softer at the level stuff. But I don't think he'll go to zone right away. Where I think he would go to zone is when the shit hits the fan in Indy. So like yes, like when they fight, whether it's in game three or game four, they find 1012 points. I think that's when he'll do it. And to your point, it changes the game. It takes them away from being a dribble drive and make read type of team to more of like a processing and shooting team, which again is, even though they're awesome, is not the thing that they're like most renowned for. So really, really fascinating stuff on that end of the floor.
- [30:59]
Lester Holt
The number. Jason, I just looked it up. 54% of their shot attempts are threes against zone coverage in the, in the playoffs. And then it's 39 of their shots are threes against man defense. So they're taking a ton of threes either way. But like going over half of your shot attempts from three, that, that, that it's really like that's you don't have a lot of choice against the Thunder, right? Like the Thunder are going to do what they want to do. But if you do play zone, that's where you can influence the types of shots that they're taking. So I think you're right though. Like when shit hits the fan, if it happens in game three or four, Indiana like Carlisle, like they once won a finals. The Dallas Mavericks against the Miami Heat. The difference is Dallas played a ton of zone all year long and then really, you know, puzzled LeBron and Wade and Bosch in the finals against that Heatles team. But he did use it in a finals before. And like this is a guy who's used zone throughout his years as an NBA head coach, but not here in Indiana. So, so I wonder if that's a card he's, he's, he's holding on to for the right, for the right specific moment when that time comes in the series. Because I'd be surprised if we don't see, see it in a continuous amount of time in a game at some point.
- [32:12]
Jason
That's a really good stat. Like an easy way to, to basically force Oklahoma City to settling for the majority of their shots from behind the three three point line is to go zone. And the stuff about not practicing zone in the regular season is a really interesting point too. The one thing that could work to Carlisle's advantage just the Long schedule and just the extra off days to try to implement stuff. But yeah, no game till Wednesday, right?
- [32:39]
Lester Holt
What are we going to do? Just draft stuff. That's all I'm going to be doing for two days.
- [32:43]
Jason
So Richard Jefferson and many others were upset last night with this was me. In the same way that you were disagreeing with the criticism of Shay, I was disagreeing with some of the criticism of Tyrese. Not, not so much to me. It's just less criticism. It's more just reality in terms of who he is as a basketball player. But what do you make of the.
- [33:01]
Lester Holt
Torn eight from Richard Jefferson?
- [33:03]
Jason
Yeah, exactly. The tournaments. Which by the way he said in game one too.
- [33:06]
Lester Holt
For the record, he did so minutes before she hit the Amazing Game Winner. I'm sorry, I hella burned in the Amazing Game Winner.
- [33:17]
Jason
How did, how did you like, what was your overall like response slash take to the stuff surrounding Tyrese and his aggression and all of that storyline?
- [33:27]
Lester Holt
I mean I feel like I'm team Richard Jefferson here and I have been all playoffs long that I think with Halliburton I know he has some of his limitations as a, as a creator generating space against especially against like the elite defense of the Thunder. But like dude, sometimes I think he's just too passive earlier early in these games when we see what he can do when he's aggressive. Layton games like he 12 points on five of six in the fourth quarter alone. Five points on two of seven through the first three quarters. I just don't think Indiana has any chance of winning this series if Halliburton is taking only seven shots through the first three quarters of games. It's just they're not going to win the series. Halliburton needs to be looking for a shot more early or the Pacers need to design more actions to get him looks early in game speeds. He's too elite of a shooter off the catch, too elite of a shooter off the dribble. Whether it's from three or four mid range. And in this series I looked up the shot distribution numbers this morning because like he hasn't gotten to the rim at all. 7% of his shots in the series against Oklahoma City are in the restricted area. 22% in every other series in the playoffs. So almost a quarter of his shots were in the restricted area up until the finals and now it's only 7%. They're forcing him into more paint shots, more mid range shots and even from three he's not taking as many of those. So on self created chances this is the only self created chances. So with Halliburton, if he's not getting the basket, he's a near 50% guy on mid range jumpers. I feel like in the same way that you said SGA took too many of those at times in game one. Halliburton is not taking enough of those in my opinion. He is an elite mid range shooter, but he's all about rim in threes to me I think that's an area that he can exploit that he doesn't enough because he's sticking to what he does at an elite level. But sometimes I think you need to take the B minus shot and not just always look for the A plus play because sometimes the B minus player, the beep, the B play is the best thing you're going to get in a half court possession against the Thunder. So I do think he needs to be more aggressive early in games. I personally think he should be taking 20 shots a game, not 14, 15 shots a game. And that's rooted in my belief of who he can be as a scorer, who he can be as a creator. Despite some of the athletic limitations against, against these elite defenders he's facing every single possession.
- [36:08]
Jason
Yeah. You know what's so interesting is last night I was more like aggressive on this and then the guy who kind of brought me back to earth was actually Jackson. And because my initial thought was like, I'm watching him like, because I'm watching him like trying to shake free of these guards and he's, he's really not for the most part. And so I was like, okay, like there's a reality to the fact that Tyrese is not the type of athletic scoring guard that can just consist like, like that can pull Kyrie Irving footwork out of his bag and like knock down these crazy shots. But what Jackson said to me at the start of the mailbag last night really got me thinking. He was like, he was like, why doesn't he just take a few more of the questionable like, like to what you're saying, the B minus shots, at the very least to try to maintain some more rhythm and it could free up some more of those opportunities where like the defense is reacting to him more because he's being more aggressive. And so then I, I kind of approached my rewatch this morning with that same kind of ideology in mind. And he's right. Jackson's right. There were, there were specifically some drop coverage looks. Cause what stood out to me last night is I was like, okay, yeah, the shots that he was Getting in the fourth quarter were drop coverage. Looks like they ran a stack, pick and roll that Oklahoma City didn't switch appropriately. And he got a dunk. He shot a floater against drop. He shot a little right elbow jumper against dropping. The toughest one he hit was that one coming off of the ball screen on the right wing that J Dub contested very well. And he hit like that three. But the point is, is he caught a rhythm. He caught a rhythm and then he made a tough shot, which is what happens when you take shots. You. You catch a rhythm and then you can start making some tough shots. And so I kind of have come back more towards the middle in the sense that, like, I don't think Tyrese can solve this series by just like putting up 35 points a game, but he absolutely does need to be somewhat more aggressive. And to me, the example is just taking more of those drop coverage looks when they're there. So for instance, there was one where he came. It actually really resulted in an illegal screen on Miles Turner, but there was a play where he came off of a ball screen at the top of the key in like the late second quarter where he came off and Hartenstein was six or seven feet back, but he was still over and Turner was rolling and he threw the pocket pass instead of just taking the pull up three that was there. And my thing is like, Indiana actually did quite a bit of damage on action like that in game one on offensive rebounds. So it's like at the. It just put it up and Turner's crashing with the Hartenstein up, not at the level, but containing you on the. And he's probably gonna step up and contest. Turner's got a good shot in an offensive rebound there. So like, I just think in general there's a few. There are definitely more opportunities for Tyrese to look to take some of those coverage beating shots. And at the end of the day, like, you have to be an active participant in your team survival. You can't be a passive participant. And so to me, I'm kind of occupying that middle ground where I think he absolutely can be more aggressive. I just also don't think he can be, you know, 35 point per game guy, if that makes sense.
- [39:13]
Lester Holt
It's understandable. I mean, like the stat I shared, 7% of his self created shots are in the restricted area. That is not the stat of a guy. To your point, that is like this elite ball handler breaking down to the fender, Kyrie Irving style, or this overpowering brute force athlete who just gets to the rim at will. He is not that. Tyrese Halliburton is one of one. He's himself. Like, there's really nobody else like Tyrese Halliburton currently in the. In the NBA. But I think, like you. Like you said it, like Jackson said it last night to you, sometimes I think he's going to take some of those shots and. And like, maybe there's certain nights he won't have to because his Siakam's on a heater or niece Smith is going crazy or. Or nem hard. It's his night. Like, it won't always have to be that. But I think there's certain games where Halliburton needs to feel a moment and say, okay, it has to be me tonight. And the example I always bring up to me, like, Halliburton is so much like a younger Jokic in the sense that there was a time where Jokic would have four shots in a game, two shots in a game. And because he thought, well, I'm being selfless. I'm passing the ball to my teammates. I'm not a selfish player who jacks up shots. I want to make my teammates better. And then he learned, oh, wait a minute. Me being selfless is actually doing the things that my team needs me to do because I'm this great as a player. And he learned how to be a dominant scorer to become a guy that's taking a ton of shots. And Halliburton is not Jokic. To be clear, Jokic is talk about a one of one dominant, huge, elite, footwork, different type of player who can do those things. But I don't think Halliburton's quite learned that lesson yet, that for him to truly reach his potential and truly be the most selfless he could be for his team, sometimes that requires him taking those tough shots. Sometimes that requires him being the guy who takes shots. Four or five possessions in a row. And I don't think he's learned that quite yet. And maybe he'll learn it in the middle of the series, because we have seen both Indiana and both Oklahoma City, both led by a ton of young guys on their team, get better throughout the postseason. Maybe games 3, 4. However long the series goes, we'll see Halliburton have a night like that. And things click for him like, hey, okay, I can do these things, and sometimes I have to do these things for the greater good of my team.
- [41:39]
Jason
Yeah, you know, it's. It's fascinating with Halliburton in particular. Cause I wonder if There's a big picture conversation to have about because you mentioned the difference between him and Jokic. Jokic can go get 40, 45 every night. Yeah, every single night.
- [41:54]
Lester Holt
Yes.
- [41:55]
Jason
And so part like I was actually talking about this last night on Playback, if I remember correctly. Like, I, I wonder if Halliburton could ever crack into the top tier of superstars. Like if he's even capable because of some of those limitations. But I do generally agree with, with the point, which is that, which is that each archetype has their demon they have got to confront. And the playmaking types, if you're not applying a certain amount of aggression, then they will play the pass and your passing opportunities will not be as. As rewarded as they could be. Similarly, as a scorer, you've got to show a willingness to beat double teams with the pass or you're going to be shooting over double teams your entire career. And so there's a certain am of like that. That is the. The demon that Tyrese has to confront as we zoom out from the series. I came into this series thinking that Indiana had very little chance. I still view Oklahoma City as a substantial favorite, but from what I've seen in the first two games, I actually do believe that Indy has a pathway. And it essentially just stems around the fact that I think that they're fast enough to rush Oklahoma City's ball handlers enough. Like for, for instance, in the first quarter, before things got ugly, I thought that Indy defended Oklahoma City well again. And it basically stems from the fact that. And I think it was. I think I heard Zach Lowe was the first guy to call this out. And God, it's been great having Zach back. Zach was talking about how some of these turnovers that Oklahoma City has comes from the fact that that indies defenders will stay attached. To me, I'm thinking it almost is like the ISO version of back pressure. Like in the same way in a ball screen, if you chase over the top and you. And you stay attached, it forces the guy to drive into the teeth of your defense. He can't take a pull up. Similarly, if you get beat in ISO but you stay attached and you're pressuring from behind, it kind of forces him to rush the drive into traffic. I think Nemhard and Nismith can do just enough of that as a team. They rotate and contest just well enough that they can play Oklahoma City into some offensive lulls. And then on the other end of the floor, I think they've proven that when they don't turn the ball over and when they get the ball popping around and they they kind of expand the advantage incrementally over possessions that they can score. So like I look at it as they they can win this series. AI is redefining what's possible for your business. Are you up to the challenge? Microsoft is helping leaders like you get AI ready faster with unified data and simplified platform management, unlocking up to 150% improved output across industries. Leaders are turning to Microsoft's AI tools and guidance to rise to the challenge. For the NBA, that means using AI powered insights to deliver more personalized fan experience. For BMW, it means innovating their development process safely and securely. And for Lego House, it means creating new interactive experiences for people to explore. With Microsoft's trustworthy AI tools and guidance, you can drive greater impact. Business leaders Microsoft surveyed saw an average of 3.7 times ROI per $1 invested in generative AI. Whatever challenge comes next, let Microsoft help keep pushing you forward. For more details, visit Microsoft.com challengers hi Zoe Saldana.
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Zoe Saldana
Welcome to T Mobile. Here's your new iPhone 16 Pro on us.
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Jason
Thanks. And here's my old phone to trade in.
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Zoe Saldana
You don't need to trade in. When you switch to T Mobile, we'll give you a new iPhone 16 Pro plus we'll help you pay off your old Phone up to 800 bucks and you still get to keep it.
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Jason
There's always a trade in.
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Zoe Saldana
Not right now. @ T Mobile.
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Jason
I feel like I have to give you something in return for karma.
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Zoe Saldana
That's okay.
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Jason
I don't really have much in my purse. Oh, let's see. Hand sanitizer. It's lavender.
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Zoe Saldana
I'm good. Seriously.
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Jason
Let me check this pocket. Oh, mints.
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Zoe Saldana
Really, I'm fine.
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Jason
Oh, I have raisins. I'm a mom. Wait, wait one sec. I've got cupcakes in the car.
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It's our best iPhone offer ever. Switch to T Mobile. Get a new iPhone 16 Pro with Apple Intelligence on us.
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Tom Brokaw
No trade in needed.
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Jason
We'll even pay off your phone up.
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Kevin O'Connor
To 800 bucks with 24 monthly bill credits. New line 100 plus a month on experience beyond Finance Agreement 999.99 and qualifying ported for well qualified plus tax and 10 connection charge. Pay off the virtual prepaid card. Allow 15 days credits and balance due if you pay off earlier.
- [46:02]
Ryan Seacrest
Cancel CT mobile.com Hey it's Ryan Seacrest for Albertsons and safeway now through June 24th. Score hot summer savings and earn four times the points. Look for in store tags on item like Starbucks Ground Coffee, Red Bull Energy Drinks, Spam Classic Planet Oat Milk, Charmin Bath Tissue, Totino's Pizza rolls and Frito Lay chips. Then clip the offer in the app for automatic event Long savings Shop in store or online for easy drive up and go pick up or delivery subject to availability restrictions apply. Visit Albertsons or Safeway.com for more details.
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- [47:36]
Jason
Where are you at? Where where were you before the series and where are you at now with respect to each team's chance to win?
- [47:42]
Lester Holt
Oh, I, I picked OKC in five like everybody else on the planet seemed to do, and I didn't give Indiana much of a chance. I I, I have too much respect for them to have not picked a sweep for okc, and obviously OKC and five is still on the table. But one thing I did say before the series was that if Indiana splits the first two games in the row, this will be a deep series because I initially thought that Indiana would split the games at home and OKC would then win in Game five at home. So I think we're going to see a split this week. That means we're going to at least see a Game 6, and at that point in the series, who knows, who knows what could happen? Like Indiana will host Game six. Who knows? Anytime you reach a Game six or a Game seven, anything can happen. And the Pacers have proven me wrong. I thought they were just like a league pass darling during the season, like a really good regular season team Super Fun. And then they just be a playoff, you know, team that gets eliminated. Good story, Fun team to watch. I was wrong. I was wrong about them throughout the postseason. Here they are, the NBA Finals, and I very well could be wrong about them once again in the Finals. Like, it's just. It's possible I could be wrong about him. But I do think okc, I still. I still think this team is special. I. I still think this team, we're witnessing the beginning of a really long run for them. Whether that means dynasty, multiple championships or not, I don't know. You don't know how the. The complexion of the league will change, how other teams will evolve either. But I think we're at the beginning of like, a really long, sustained run of contention for the Thunder. And this team is like, this team is just. Just better straight up. And one of the reasons why Indiana is able to be here, you know, Kenny Atkinson, the Cavs head coach, said something after they got eliminated in the second round where he's like, you know, Indiana's, you know, speed, athleticism and their physicality. He talked about how there's, like a mental edge to that for them to. To have the endurance to sustain that from start to finish in game. And I don't feel like Cleveland ever matched that. New York never matched that from start to finish. OkC in game two, I felt like did match that. Like that speed, that relentlessness, that. That toughness, like the. Those intangible things that. That has set the Pacers apart basically the whole season since the middle of December, where things really started to click for them. OKC has those athletes, they. They have the depth as well. They have the stars who embrace playing that way as well. Like, SGA was awesome on defense in game to the amount of steals and deflections he had, like how active he was on switches against Siakam. I remember they tried to post him up once, and I think the second quarter, and he just reached his long arms around and just like snatched the ball out of the air. Like, OKC has that ability and in ways that New York and Cleveland don't have. And that's where I feel like the Thunder. Everything Kenny Atkinson said about the Pacers, I think you can also say about the Thunder, particularly their defense. So that's where I still. I still lean heavily for the Thunder, but I'm not. I've been so wrong about the Pacers. I'm not. I'm not going to say, oh, this time I'm right. I might be wrong again. I might.
- [51:13]
Jason
Yeah, I Don't blame you. I've made the same mistake with them multiple times in this postseason. I think I. I think the only series I picked them was the Knicks series because I, I could not. When I was picking the first round series, the image I could not get out of my head was Giannis against the Celtics in 2022.
- [51:27]
Lester Holt
Oh, yeah.
- [51:28]
Jason
I was like, in my head, I was like, we haven't watched Giannis play healthy in a playoff series since then, and it like, didn't matter that the Celtics were better. He just, he just backpacked his team to within, you know, a striking distance. Distance of winning that series. I. One of the things that I think is, I love the point you made about, like, matching Indiana's, like, mental fortitude, because, like, that is one of the most remarkable things to me about watching this Pacers team is their basketball character. It is like, the things they do all suck, like running that much. And like, like, in. One of the things that Indiana does that I think is really fascinating is like, even when they give up an open three, they will throw a token closeout. And what's fascinating about that to me is like, they. Those guys know, they know that NBA players, when they're that open, aren't seeing the late hand that comes, like, after the release, but it's just part of their character. It's like, no, this is what we do. We close out. We close out every single time, and we run the floor every single time and we pressure the ball every single time. It's like, it's part of their character as a team. And Oklahoma City, there's a reason why they won 68 games, because they also attacked every single possession during the entire season. And so they were able to match that. And so the last thing before we get you out of here, I thought that Oklahoma City was able to hit a level of, like, physical leverage in this game, just athletically that Indiana couldn't match. And so it got me thinking that Indiana's only pathway is to sweep the home games. Because in theory, if they won 2 and 3 or 3 and 4, that would be a must win for Oklahoma City in game five. So you're going to get that same athletic leverage and then in theory, a game seven, trophies on the line, same sort of thing. I'm not sure that Indiana can match it when they get to that point. Do you think that Indiana has the ability to match Oklahoma City athletically when they need to?
- [53:17]
Lester Holt
No, no, I don't. I don't. I. I don't. Like, I just. I Think I think like I'm not going to rule out Indiana winning the series, but OKC is just special man because they have those intangible qualities you're hitting on. They have the elite talent level and they have the athletic edge. OKC had an all time great regular season defense. They very well might prove to have all time great postseason defense as well. You know, Halliburton hits the game winner in game one. An epic moment, but he hasn't been great and neither was Anthony Edwards and neither, neither was Nikola Jokic. So like if this continues or even worsens for him, like if it gets harder for him because think about like OKC to get to this point. They saved their best coverage for Jokic in the closeout game, putting Caruso on him and swarming him. They had their best game against Edwards in the closeout game against Minnesota. They have cards that they're waiting to play that they have, we haven't seen hints of yet against Tyrese Halliburton or against Andrew Nemhardt or against Pascal Siako that they're waiting to use, that they haven't used it. And so I have that in the back of my mind as well. When I think about how we've seen the Thunder close out teams to get to this point that we may not have seen actual actually what their best game plan is to win some of these series. So I'll still pick the Thunder to win in six now, not five, because I think Indiana will at least take one game at home in Indiana. But you know what, Maybe this is a 01 Sixers, Lakers type of series as well, where Philly wins games game one and then Lakers win the next four and it's the beginning, beginning of a run for the Lakers. Maybe that's what this is. And the Thunder are going to sweep their way after a gentleman sweep their way to a NBA Finals championship. We'll see. I mean, do you agree there, Jason, that like that's what we could see here?
- [55:18]
Jason
Yeah, I think if I had to guess what would happen the rest of the series, Indy wins game three and then Oklahoma City wins three in a row. That's, that's going to be my guess. I think there's like, there's like a Indiana first Finals game in God knows how long. I couldn't even tell you the last time they were in the finals. And then it was what, early 2000s, right? And then you have the ball pressure element. Like I, I had a, I had an OKC fan ask like, or Indiana fan asked last night on playback. Like, how does Oklahoma City get away with all these fouls? And it's. To me, it's, like, so simple. It's like the team that comes out and plays with more physical force actually gets a better whistle. That's just always been the way it's been. Like, if you come out and you physically kick a team's ass, like, you don't get called for fouls. It's like the craziest thing. It's just how it works. And I feel like it's just. And I'm okay with it, too. I'm okay with the refs rewarding the more physically aggressive team, but Indiana is going to be that team in Game three. And. And we know that Oklahoma City's offense is not rock solid. It can. It can get knocked off its foundation from time to time. So I do think Indiana will get one. But every time Oklahoma City has been in a situation where they've had to win, where they've had to get the job done, even when they're in an ugly spot, like, down eight in Game four against Denver in the fourth quarter, down nine in Game five in the fourth quarter, they just keep coming through. And I'm. I'm more on your side of things. I think this is one of the special teams in NBA history, and I, at this point, would be really, really surprised, but I'm thankful for the Pacers because they have made this an entertaining series, and I was worried that it might not be. And it, like, I will remember this Pacers team very fondly regardless of what happens. But, Kevin, you've been very generous with your time today. I sincerely appreciate you coming on the show. Can you tell everybody where they can find your work? Work?
- [57:00]
Lester Holt
I appreciate it. Jason. Over at Yahoo. Sports, I have a ton of written articles, a ton of draft coverage with my NBA draft guide. It's, I think, a year 12 of doing draft guides. Draft coverage. So, yeah, draft is coming up in 16 days. Kind of crazy. So that. That's where a lot of my focus is right now, next to the Finals. So all that stuff over at Yahoo. Sports or wherever my social channels are, wherever you get your stuff.
- [57:25]
Jason
It was good to see you, man. Everyone follow Kevin's work. Work. That's all we have for today. As always, we sincerely appreciate you guys for supporting us and supporting the show. We'll have a mailbag coming out tomorrow, and then obviously we're gonna be live on YouTube after the final buzzer of Game 3 on Wednesday night. What's up, guys? As always, I appreciate you for listening to and supporting Hoops tonight. It would actually be really helpful for us if you guys would take a second and leave a rating and a review. As always, I appreciate you guys supporting us, but if you could take a minute to do that, I'd really appreciate it.
- [57:54]
The volume.
- [57:57]
AI is redefining what's possible for your business. With more unique challenges to solve and higher stakes than ever, Microsoft helps you stay ahead. Our trustworthy AI tools and guidance can empower leaders like you to drive greater impact. And with Azure's simplified platform management, we're helping businesses go further and faster by unlocking up to 150% improved output. Whatever challenges come next, next, let Microsoft help you keep pushing forward. For more details, visit Microsoft.com challengers Hey.
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Ryan Seacrest
It'S Ryan Seacrest for Albertsons and safeway now through June 24th. Score hot summer savings and earn four times the points. Look for in store tags on items like General Mills cereal, Chobani Greek Yogurt, Pillsbury Crescent rolls, cinnamon rolls and biscuits, Haagen Dazs ice cream, Lindor Chocolate Truffles, Tillamook ice cream and Cove Probiotic sodas. Then clip the offer in the app for automatic event long savings. Shop in store or online for easy drive up and go, pick up or delivery sub availability restrictions apply. Visit Albertsons or Safeway.com for more details.
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Jason
We finally switched to T Mobile because.
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Unknown
With them we can be connected here and there.
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Lester Holt
Dad, the cousins in Mexico have a surprise for you.
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Jason
And enjoy the gift of staying connected. Switch and start saving today.
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Ryan Seacrest
Get four Samsung Galaxy S25 phones with Galaxy AI on us and four lines.
- [59:49]
Jason
For just 25 bucks per line plus non stop talk, text and data between us and Mexico. Visit a store t mobile.com or call 1-800-T-Mobile 1-800-T-Mobile.
- [59:58]
Ryan Seacrest
See details@t mobile.com this is an iHeart podcast.