← The Herd with Colin Cowherd
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- [00:00]
Host
You're listening to an iHeart podcast.
- [00:07]
Jackson
The.
- [00:07]
Jason
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- [02:03]
Jackson
All right.
- [02:03]
Jason
Welcome to Hoops Tonight here at the Volume. Happy Thursday everybody. Hope all of you guys are having a great week. Well, this excellent second round series between the Denver Nuggets and Oklahoma City Thunder, which has been rife with highly entertaining games, gave us another great one tonight, the Julian Strother game. Julian Strother comes into this one and scores 15 points for a Nuggets team that desperately needed someone to come in and start hitting shots as a team. The Nuggets finally started to hit their catch and shoot threes in this game as they go 12 for 32 from 3, 38% a high step up from where they've been in their losses in the series. Jamal Murray also excellent in a game when he woke up very sick and was questionable to start the game. Another nightmare shooting performance for the Oklahoma City Thunder, another example of their youth showing in terms of J Dubs inconsistency. Lots of interesting stuff to get into in this game from the perspective of both teams. We'll be breaking this game down. Then at the tail end of the show we'll take 10, 15 minutes of mailbag questions with Jackson and then when we finish here tonight, we're going to move over to playback again. That's Playback TV Slash Hoops Tonight where we'll hang out for our after show. That's where we take callers, we watch film, we have a more informal, just kind of fun. We talk hoops for an extra, you know, 45 minutes to an hour at the tail end of the show. You guys know the drill before we get started, subscribe to the Hoops Tonight YouTube channel so you don't miss any more of our videos. Follow me on Twitter at_jason lt so you guys don't miss show announcements. Don't forget about our podcast feed wherever you get your podcast under Hoops Tonight. It's also super helpful if you leave a rating and a review on that front. Jackson's doing great work on our social media feeds, Twitter, Instagram, Facebook. Make sure you guys follow us there. And last but not least, keep dropping those mailbag questions in the YouTube chat there and we will get to them at the tail end of the show for a solid 10:15 minutes. And like we mentioned earlier, over to Playback TV slash hoops tonight when we finish up here. All right, let's talk some basketball. So I thought that was really the theme for tonight's game for Denver, the need to hit shots. If you go back to the last two games in particular, it was their offense that let them down down the stretch. Eight point lead in Game four, nine point lead in Game five in the fourth quarter and just an inability to close the deal from there. And specifically in Game five, not a single nugget was able to really contribute offensively in that fourth quarter run when Jokic was setting him up. I mean I saw a stat this morning and I double checked it to make sure it was fair but or accurate. But he had 20 potential assists in Game 5 and ended that game with five assists because of the types of shots they were missing. Even if you really zoom in on that fourth Quarter running. There's a couple of wide open threes for Christian Brown. There's a wide open three for Jamal Murray in the right corner. And this is a team that typically shoots really well. They shot 39% on UN on wide open threes. This is per NBA.com's tracking data. This is with the defender a minimum of six feet away. So these are like really open threes. They shot 39% on them in the regular season, 40% in the first round series against the Clippers in the first five games of this series. Excuse me. In the three losses. In the three losses in this series so far, the Nuggets were a combined 15 for 66 on wide open threes. That's just 23%. I thought there was an interesting, you know, interview brought to light by the broadcast about Christian Brown and how he was just kind of like evaluating the way he's performed so far in this postseason or really in this entire season. And he said, like, you know, I had a great regular season, can't really play any better than I did. And he's right about that. He did a. A great job stepping in for contavious Caldwell Pope into that starting two guard role and turned into this devastating transition scorer who also was a solid catch and shoot player, good defensive player, all of that stuff. And then he said in the postseason he's happy with the way he's defended. It's been a little bit of a mixed bag in this OKC series, but specifically at the end of games, I feel like he's been pretty good outside of maybe a couple plays at the tail end of Game 5. But he has been pretty good defensively in this series. But what he said was, I have to find a way to knock down these open threes that I'm getting big. Part of it is just that's the way the defense is attending to Nikola Jokic in the middle of the floor. They're conceding these open threes, especially out of the corner. And what I appreciated about what Christian Brown was saying is, like, he understands that there. Yeah, you're playing fine. Yeah, it's physical. Yeah. No one's really shooting well. I'm sure there's a lot of Thunder guys sitting in the locker room wishing they should shoot or could shoot better. But the bottom line is Christian knows they can have, they have a really good chance to win this series if guys make shots. And the thing that I thought stood out the most in that, that little tidbit provided by the broadcast was when Christian said I got two games to figure it out. One, just the confidence, knowing that he believed in his team to win Game 6, but also just understanding that he can flip the script by making shots. And I'm highlighting Christian Brown just because of the comments from the broadcast. But it was down the line, guys. For Denver finally just made shots. They shot 38% as a team. Christian Brown was 3 for 6 from 3. Jamal Murray was 2 for 6 from 3. He was fantastic tonight. We'll talk about him here in a minute. Playing, dealing with an ill illness, Michael Porter Jr. Finally got a couple shots to go down. And then Julian Strother, he also made some other plays. He had this baseline cut, a really impressive finish. That 360, kind of like lob finish he had from Jamal Murray. Way tougher shot than that looks on TV because he's right at the front of the rim. But to coordinate yourself in traffic like that, well, I guess he wasn't in traffic, but again, to coordinate himself on a spin where you can't even see the rim to then find the rim and lay it in, that was a really impressive finish. He had a play where he kind of ended up with the ball. Kind of a classic grenade situation where he ended up with the ball at the top of the key against J Dub in a late shot clock situation. And all the other guys in the floor kind of just looked at him like you do it. He put the ball on the floor and made a play and drew a foul. And I think, I think specifically those things are, you know, kind of found money in a certain way. But the shot making is the important part. Him stepping confidently into semi contested, intense, high stakes threes in that second half run and hitting three of them, two big ones in the late third quarter, added another one when things were kind of already in hand in the fourth quarter. All those shots were super important. And the reason why this is specifically important for this matchup is we spent a lot of time talking on playback and in the broadcast after game five about how the Nuggets kind of seem to be dealing with the fifth, a fifth closer problem. We talked about Russell Westbrook, I mean he, he made a big play tonight in the, in the late third quarter that we'll touch on in a minute. But he had a nightmare first quarter and in general just has been just uneven over the tail end of the series. So he's not a great option. Michael Porter Jr. As we discussed two nights ago, has just been incapable of knocking down open threes while also bringing some defense and rebounding issues to the table. So, like, there wasn't, like, a legitimate option to go for. We actually were talking on the broadcast about Peyton Watson, because at the very least, Peyton Watson would be able to defend and grab rebounds and at least just be an athletic presence on the floor if you're not going to get any sort of shooting from anywhere down the roster. But, like, he just, you know, that shooting stretch from Julian Strother just gives Adelman another option that he can consider. Should Michael Porter Jr. Struggle in Game 7? Should Russell Westbrook struggle in Game 7? You know, should Peyton Watson struggle in Game 7? If he needs, like, a guy that can just be out there that can hit a shot. He has his struggles defensively from time to time, but it's not like there's anybody who's doing an amazing job defensively in this series containing the ball. That was kind of the story of the game for okc. I thought Tim Legler did an amazing job in the broadcast breaking down the way that Oklahoma City was penetrating the shell of Denver zone, which was putting Jokic in all these, like, simple, like, do I have to step up to this guy who's driving and just give up a baseline cut for an easy dunk, or am I going to stay back on my heels and let this dude just drive right into my face and make a layup like he. Jokic was putting a lot of complimenting, compromising positions just simply because the shell of the Denver defense wasn't holding. And so having another option as a guy that, like, at least you're getting some shot making out of him, I think that's an interesting thing to keep an eye on heading into Game seven. But again, like, these are. These are the shots that are going to be there with the way that Oklahoma City is just swarming Jokic in the middle of the floor. And I thought that was really the story of the game tonight. Denver's young guys, Denver's veterans, Denver's role players, confidently stepping into shots and knocking them down when their team desperately needed them to hit shots. Let's talk about Jamal Murray for a minute. I. I was venting in a unserious manner with Jackson during the game because I watched a certain player for my favorite team play with an illness in Game 3 of the Minnesota Timberwolves series. And there was just, like, no competitive fire at all. It was almost like Luca just kind of wanted us all to know he was sick. And I don't. I don't want to be, you know, too. I don't want to Jump to conclusions, so to speak. Because you never know how sick Luca was or how sick Jamal was. But both players were questionable. Both players attempted to play. And I thought there was an obvious competitive fire with Jamal right away when he came into the game. And there were some stretches where he lost steam. There's a stretch there in that second quarter where you can tell he was getting to him a little bit. Kayson Wallace had some success. He had a couple turnovers, but like he came right out the gates and was aggressive both in his pull up shooting situations and going to the basket. And you could see like Jamal. If you didn't know Jamal Murray was sick, you would have no idea. Watching that game. There was no, you know, kind of pouty body language or like exaggerating the symptoms that he was dealing with. He was like, fuck all that. I, I have. My team needs me to win this game. And he went out there and just immediately brought that competitive fire and made play after play after play. I thought he was fantastic in the late third quarter run, really setting things up on offense. He was the guy that kind of set up those couple Julian Strother buckets. Got a big transition finish finish. Jackson was texting me during the game talking about his unbelievable finishing ability. Kind of has this remarkable talent to get into your body and then find these like below the rim finishing angles where he can, you know, put it softly up off the glass from way off to the side. He can finish on either side of the rim in a way that like, can even surprise you on the broadcast where you're like, is he going up on the strong side? Nope, he's going reverse. And you're like surprised as it's happening. And he, his supreme talent is. He's just one of the great shot makers to ever play this game. Like, if you really get down to it and you think about the guys who, again, that specific trait. I'm not talking about super high level point guard play, although I thought Jamal passed the ball really well tonight. I'm not talking about elite two way play in the form of defense at the guard position. I'm not talking about, you know, some sort of indomitable downhill attack. But if you strictly just taking. Synthesizing the a player's game down to the ability to hit tough shots, the ability to hit jumpers off the move and off the dribble from every single possible footwork and dribble combination. There's. There aren't many players that I've watched that are more gifted with that specific trait. And every one of those buckets he got tonight, they needed. I was just. I just, I just. I just think Jamal's a legend. I. It's hard to explain because I hated his guts when I was rooting against him as a Lakers fan, obviously, but, like, when I think about the players in the game that have the true competitive spirit, I always refer to this as like a hatred of losing, not a love of basketball. Obviously you need both in order to have success at the highest levels, but there is like a, A, There is like a competitive spirit you can see from a basketball player that manifests from a singular emotion, which is like a hatred and a fear of losing. I actually think that matters more than any other trait when it comes to basketball because it manifests in a willingness to do whatever it takes. And even when I think back to Jamal in his previous playoff highs, like in 2023, in 2022, he. He has. Or I should say in 2023, he has like a defensive playmaking side to his game too, where he'll get into a spot, in a big spot and, and put his body on the line for a charge or make a help side rotation where he'll get a big block. Or there was a big one he had in the Lakers series three years ago where he stripped LeBron on a key clutch possession. On a help side off of the weak side corner, he'll fight for a contested rebound. There was one late tonight. It was. It was in that crazy run when the Thunder were just ball pressuring like crazy and they forced all those turnovers in a row and somebody missed a three off the right wing. I can't remember who it was. I think it was J Dub. But a Thunder player missed a three and like, like Alex Crusoe comes flying in and Hardenstein's flying in and like, the Thunder are still playing with that, like, chaotic energy. And who came up with the ball in the mix of all those players? With Jamal Murray, Jokic was in there battling and somehow the ball just ended up in Jamal Murray's hands because, like, we can be critical of Jamal in other ways. He's. He takes the regular season less serious than a lot of his peers do in the league and comes into camp out of shape and could probably stand to take care of his body a little bit better. But when it comes to the principal concept of winning basketball games in the playoffs, he's just one of the better guards that I've seen in this era because of his ability to shot make and because of his willingness to do the things that you need to do to win basketball games. And I thought tonight, you know, should they win this series if they go on the road and they win game seven? I will think back to this. Jamal Murray, Game six against the Thunder, very fondly as one of the better games in his career. So shout out to Jamal. The late third quarter run. This was really when the game started to flip in Denver's favor. Elite defense in this stretch, they were giving up these, like, kind of easy baskets right along the baseline off of drop offs. And there were just a few sequences, like a Aaron Gordon threw a better contest at a Alex Caruso reverse layup where he forced a miss. Jamal Murray got in the way on one force to miss Peyton Watson, that huge block that he had in transition. Just there were a few efforts around the rim during that stretch that turned fit what would have been easy points into opportunities for Denver going the other way. And then that was the stretch when Jamal Murray really attacked offensively as a shot maker and as a playmaker. That. That was when Julian Strother had all those buckets in the late third quarter stretch. And then there was a huge sequence at the tail end of that. There was a huge sequence in that run, if you guys remember, where they kind of started to lose control and Denver turns it over. OKCs run in the length of the floor. Strother gets the huge block at the rim, and then they go down the other end and Russell Westbrook, who had had a turnover in this sequence, and it had a really rough game, gave an extra effort and got an offensive rebound put back that bumped it. Instead of going down to five, it pushed it back up to nine and just kind of changed the psychology of the game. And I just thought that was a very important run. And then Nicola Jokic wasn't super aggressive as a scorer in this game, but there was a. There was a stretch where when he first came in the mid fourth quarter, I think they were up by 8 or 9 at this point. And as we know, that's that same kind of margin that Oklahoma City was able to overcome in the previous two games, right? And Nicole Jokic came in and I was literally thinking, like, they need him to score the basketball. Tim Legler was doing a great job calling that out on the broadcast as well. And he came in and he hit a contested three and a contested floater in the middle of the lane, two quick buckets that bumped the lead all the way out to like 13 or 14 points. And that was when everyone kind of could at least feel less pressure in terms of how difficult it was going to be to close out the game, and the Nuggets ended up getting a much needed win tonight to extend the series.
- [18:22]
Jackson
Blending Vice's signature dynamic storytelling with the high octane world of sports, Vice Sports brings an exciting and diverse range of programming that goes beyond the game. From action packed live events to gripping behind the scenes documentaries to hard hitting investigative pieces and in depth program profiles of athletes, coaches, teams, Vice Sports captures the raw energy, drama and passion that makes sports truly unforgettable. Catch live events and other exclusive sports programs Only on Vice TV. Go to Vicetv.com to find your cable channel.
- [18:56]
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- [20:04]
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- [20:35]
Jackson
I'll correct my kids now and then where they'll say when cave people were here.
- [20:38]
Jason
And I'll say it seems like the.
- [20:40]
Jackson
Ice Age people that were here didn't.
- [20:42]
Jason
Have a real affinity for caves.
- [20:44]
Dan Flores
So join me starting Tuesday, May 6th where we'll delve into stories of the west and come to understand how it helps inform the ways in which we experience the region today.
- [20:56]
Jason
Listen to the American west with Dan Flores on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.
- [21:05]
Jackson
On November 5, 2018 at 6:33am, a red Volkswagen Golf was found abandoned in a ditch out in sleep Hole Valley. The driver's seat door was open. Open. No traces of footsteps leaving the vehicle. No belongings were found, except for a cassette tape lodged in the player. On that tape were ten vile, grotesque.
- [21:38]
Host
Oh, my God.
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Jason
Oh, my God.
- [21:42]
Jackson
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- [22:04]
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Jason
Someone was posting photos. It was just me naked. Well, not me, but me with someone else's body parts on my body parts that looked exactly like my own.
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Advertiser 2
I wanted to throw up.
- [22:25]
Jason
I wanted to scream.
- [22:26]
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- [22:38]
Host
This should be illegal, but what is this?
- [22:41]
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- [23:06]
Jason
On the OKC front, I did think that Oklahoma City found some stuff with Denver Zone in terms of just dribble penetration and then cutting along the baseline. There were some real opportunities there that they capitalized on. I thought this was Shay's best game in terms of his overall shot making and rhythm. The game, you know, they lost control of it through a couple of key stretches, but overall they played well when. When Shay was on the floor. And I thought that this was the game where he was most efficient and surgical offensively. Again, 32 points on just 16 shots. J Dub, again, this was something that I called out before the postseason, and it's just the reality of young basketball players. Like, J Dub's a really good player and I'm a big believer in him. I think he has the potential to be like a Jaylen Brown mixed with a little bit of Jimmy Butler within the next, you know, five to 10 years of his career. But, like, he's young and doesn't have a ton of experience on this stage, and he's really struggled to be consistently impactful in this setting. Again, 3 for 16 in a long line of some brutal shooting. Performances in this series. They're going to need him to be better in Game seven. And then I just wanted to shout out Kayson Wallace. I don't know what he's going to be in the long run. I feel like there's some real potential there because of his athleticism, just his ability to get up in traffic both in transition and underneath the basket, almost finishing like a big man as a guard around the rim. His ball pressure bother. He bothers Jamal Murray more than Lou Dort does. He's doing some real damage to him, attacking the basketball. Ksan's a great player and I'm just really excited to see what he becomes in the long run. Now as far as game seven goes, this is going to be super interesting game. It's on the road, right, for Denver. The Oklahoma City Thunder will be substantially favored. Right. They are the young team though. And I was really, I was looking back at just the previous examples in recent NBA history in like the last decade or so of teams who have won Game seven on the road. And every single time there's a consistent theme, it's the star, the superstar, a apex superstar. Every time it's been a top tier guy. The only example you'll find of one that's not really is the Trey Young Game 7 against Philly back in 2021, if you remember correctly. But even then I have to go back and watch that game to remember exactly what happened. But I remember Trey making a bunch of big plays late in that game, like right in the final minutes as they pulled away from Philly. But if you look at the other examples of recent games where a team won a road game seven, you go back to like 2018 and it's LeBron James and Boston won game one at home, they won game two at home, they won game five at home. And then suddenly in game seven when all of the pressure was on all of their young players. Now mind you, they, they were younger players than Oklahoma City, even in terms of Jalen Brown and Jason Tatum at that point in time. But LeBron just kind of alpha dogged them and was like far and away the best player in the game, far and away the most comfortable player in the game. Made all the big plays late and they ended up winning. Fast forward to 2023. Steph Curry game seven on the road in Sacramento. Steph drops a 50 piece on those dudes and they just have no idea what to do. They just immediately crumble in their confidence and drop a Game 7 at home, go to 2022, Luka Doncic on the road in Phoenix, just right out the gates in the first quarter, just alpha dogs, those dudes, they all get super nervous and they end up falling apart. And specifically with the, the, the, the Celtics in 2018, but especially the Suns in 2022, those were highly ranked teams in the regular season. They were teams that won a ton of games. They were teams that were viewed as favorites in the series. Like this was a, this was, you know, this series will follow a somewhat similar trend, except for Shea is also an apex star in my opinion, and this is a more talented, better Oklahoma City Thunder team. But that dynamic is the dynamic that the Thunder have to avoid. If Jokic rolls up into Oklahoma City in Game seven and right away just looks like by far the most confident and comfortable player on the floor and he just strangles the pace and the flow and a bunch of these young Oklahoma City Thunder players get nervous, that's where it could get dangerous. And as Denver just showed in game five, they can go into Oklahoma City and control a game for a large portion. They, again, they blew that one in the late fourth quarter, but they were right there with the chance to win that, with that game, to win that game. So game seven, all eyes are on Jokic and Shay. You know, I expect a lot of inconsistency from the role players in that game, but like, you know, like as, as, as likely as Jamal and J Dub are to go off, they're just as likely to have nightmare games. It's going to be Jokic and Shea. One of those two dominates that matchup. You're going to see that team win that game. And I can't wait. After what's been a pretty boring tail end of the second round, I feel fortunate that we're going to get an epic game 7 on. Is it on Saturday or Sunday? I think it's on Sunday, actually. So we get a couple days off. Wow, that's a big deal. That's a huge deal. So Denver doesn't play till Sunday. That's, that's a big deal that Denver is going to get a little bit of time off before they have to roll up into that arena. That's advantage to Denver for sure as well. If I had to pick right now, I picked Oklahoma City in seven before the series. I still feel like they probably deserve to be about a 60 to 40 favorite in game seven. So I'm going to stick with OKC in seven at this point. But I would not be even the slightest bit surprised if Denver rolled up in there and got the job done. And either way, Minnesota Denver and Minnesota Minnesota OKC are both excellent Western Conference Finals matchups. So us as basketball fans, we will be fine either way. But I can't wait to break that game down when the time comes.
- [29:05]
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- [30:14]
Dan Flores
The American west with Dan Flores is the latest show from the Meat Eater Podcast Network. Hosted by me, writer and historian Dan Flores and brought to you by Velvet Buck, this podcast looks at a West available nowhere else. Each episode I'll be diving into some of the lesser known histories of the West. I'll then be joined in conversation by guests such as Western historian Dr. Randall Williams and best selling author and Meat Eater founder Stephen Rinella.
- [30:44]
Jackson
I'll correct my kids now and then where they'll start say when cave people were here. And I'll say it seems like the Ice Age people that were here didn't.
- [30:51]
Jason
Have a real affinity for caves.
- [30:54]
Dan Flores
So join me starting Tuesday, May 6th where we'll delve into stories of the west and come to understand how it helps inform the ways in which we experience the region today.
- [31:06]
Jason
Listen to the American west with Dan Flores on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.
- [31:14]
Jackson
On November 5, 2018 at 6:33am, a red Volkswagen Golf was found abandoned in a ditch out in Sleep Hole Valley. The driver's seat door was open. No traces of footsteps leaving the vehicle. No belongings were found except for a cassette tape lodged in the player. On that tape were ten vile no.
- [31:43]
Jason
No no no no no no no, no no.
- [31:47]
Jackson
Grotesque.
- [31:48]
Host
Oh my God.
- [31:50]
Advertiser 2
Oh my God.
- [31:51]
Jackson
Horrific stories that to this day have been kept restricted from feeling this too. A Horror Anthology podcast. Listen on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.
- [32:13]
Advertiser 2
In 2020, a group of young women in a tidy suburb of New York City found themselves in an AI fueled nightmare.
- [32:22]
Jason
Someone was posting photos. It was just me naked. Well, not me, but me with someone else's body parts on my body. Parts that looked exactly like my own.
- [32:33]
Advertiser 2
I wanted to throw up. I wanted to scream. It happened in Levittown, New York. But reporting the series took us through the darkest corners of the Internet and to the front lines of a global battle against deepfake pornography.
- [32:48]
Host
This should be illegal, but what is this?
- [32:50]
Advertiser 2
This is a story about a technology that's moving faster than the law and about vigilantes trying to see stem the tide. I'm Margie Murphy. And I'm Olivia Carville. This is Levittown, a new podcast from iHeart podcasts Bloomberg and Kaleidoscope. Listen to Levittown on Bloomberg's Big Take podcast. Find it on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
- [33:16]
Jason
All right, let's bring Jackson on and let's take a solid 10, 15 minutes of questions.
- [33:20]
Host
Let's do it. Let's do it. First question, aside from the superstars who are obviously the driving force for each team, what is an X factor for each team going into game seven? It could be a player, a concept, whatever.
- [33:33]
Jason
So the. The obvious one is shooting, right? There's a certain amount of, like, whether or not we get a. A confident role player night for either team. You know, that could be Dort. That could be Michael Porter Jr. That could be Christian Brown. That could be, you know, Kayson Wallace and Alex Caruso. Like, there's definitely a role player swing. Either way, I'm going to go with Jamal vs J Dub as just shot makers. One of the things that I think we've seen a pretty good example of is, like, Jamal has a couple of crafty finishes in this series, especially in transition. But both teams are doing a good job of keeping specifically J Dub and Jamal from getting all the way to the rim. J Dub's having to settle for a lot of, like, tough stuff in the short to mid range, and so is Jamal. And so I think there's a certain amount of, like, shot making comfortability between those two guys that I think would be a big swing in this. In this game seven. I also think the whistle could play a role. Is Oklahoma City allowed to just beat the shit out of Yokich or are they going to get a little more ticky tack? Shay's whistle? That could be a big factor. Oklahoma City in general, just processing against the zone and knocking down shots. I think that's a big one too. There are a lot of examples. But you know how it is, Jackson, like this point in the series, everyone knows what everyone's doing and it's really, it's really just about guys, you know, executing the game plan and knocking down shots.
- [34:58]
Host
For sure. Let's steal a game from Bill Simmons. Guess the line for game seven.
- [35:05]
Jason
I'm going to guess OKC minus eight and a half.
- [35:14]
Host
Seven open at eight though. So you, you almost.
- [35:16]
Jason
I was thinking, I was like, no, I'm gonna be more aggressive.
- [35:18]
Host
I was gonna say more like five or six. I'm kind of surprised. I'm kind of surprised.
- [35:21]
Jason
Well, after OKC was a minus four and a half favorite on the road tonight, I was like, I was like, man, like they gotta be up there in that like 7 or 8 range. But yeah, I think that's the right line. Cause the, the dynamic at play is it's either gonna be a close game or OKC will pull away and kind of blow em out, you know, 10, 15. Cause you know, veteran team, once they lose sight of their opportunity to win, they'll probably, you know, let go of the rope a little bit. I do think it's going to be very low scoring though. That would be a game that I would take the under for sure.
- [35:56]
Host
This is a question about sort of something that you mentioned, which is the Thunder finding success with some of those middle drives and the baseline cutter, specifically against the zone. Can you sort of break down why that works? And also do you think that that that set of sort of success will result in less zone from Denver in game seven?
- [36:16]
Jason
There's a way to run the zone better than they've been running it in terms of just, I mean, to put it very simply, just guys containing the ball better. But think of it like this. So if you guys think about the zone in the, in the context of each guy kind of has a job. You have your top guys and you have your guys that are in the corners, right? And then you have Jokic in the middle of the floor and Jokic's responsibility, the middleman responsibility for basically every 2, 3 zone. Although I've seen some variations like Houston was not using Steven Adams to cover the middle, they'd use a top guy to cover the middle. You'll see a couple of weird variations around the league. But Jokic, his responsibility basically is the basket and up to the elbows. You know, he'll, if a guy catches in the middle of the floor. In many cases, he's the guy who will come up and then the two baseline guys will pinch down. But what was happening is all of those four guys on the outside were doing a poor job of one, containing the ball and two, filling in for Jokic when he would step up. So imagine a scenario where a. And guys, when we go to playback later, we. I'll pull up some video clips of this so you guys can see some specific examples of that. But essentially, if you give up dribble penetration in the middle, Jokic has no choice but to step up. Because if he doesn't step up, he's on his heels for an athlete who's going to elevate right at the front of the rim. So he needs to step up to stop the driver before he can get into basically the zone where he can take off and make a play. And then at that point, the two bottom guys have to pinch in to rotate to the basket. And they were missing that rotation constantly. And so when that guy would just cut along the baseline, when Jokic would step up, it'd be just an easy drop off pass and there'd be an easy, you know, dunk or a layup right underneath the basket. But theoretically, if you're in the zone, that dribble penetration is something you should be able to contain. The whole point of the zone is to force them to swing the ball around the perimeter and take threes. So, like your job like a three two zone, or, you know, these other variations of three, two in particular, you're trying to take away threes and there's opportunities around the basket. But in a 2, 3 zone, the entire premise of the zone is these guys are young and they don't know how to make shots under pressure in kind of a funky zone situation. So your job there is essentially to contain the ball and force them to take threes off of swing passes instead of paint touches. And they just didn't do a good job. But again, we'll get into more examples of that when we get over to playback later so you guys can see some video.
- [38:43]
Host
Next question. With MPJ hurt and missing most of his shots, do you think it's better for Russ, Peyton, Watson, or even Strother to eat up those minutes and sort of to. To focus the question a little bit? It's obviously depending on the flow of the game who's playing better, but in a vacuum, if you had to pick someone else to be the fifth closer along with their four main guys, who would you.
- [39:02]
Jason
Who would you go with, first of all, just so that you guys know, because I pulled up the numbers. Oklahoma City, 23 possessions of zone offense, a 109 offensive rating. That's very good. 63 possessions of half court, man to man, a 78 offensive rating. So obviously I don't think we'll see zero zone in game seven. But I wouldn't be surprised if Denver ended up running more man just because of the fact that Oklahoma City had so much success against it. Now to the question. We had a similar kind of like topic during the meat and potatoes of the start of this show, but I think you got this is, this is literally the job for, for Adelman in game seven. You gotta have a, you gotta be willing to make a change, but willing to throw a quick hook. This is a zero margin for error game. You cannot afford to lose this particular game. So with that being the case, you give Strother a chance. Well, you start with Michael Porter Jr. Right? And if MPJ has it going and he's getting rebounds, he's in the right spots defensively and he's, you know, four for his first seven from the field, you push his minutes all the way up because he's been in a lot of big games in his career. He's not going to be as uncomfortable as a Julian Strother or something along those lines. But if Mike, If Michael Porter Jr. Starts, you know, one for five and has a couple sloppy turnovers and it just looks like he's not in it and Russ is out of it, but Julian Strother is at the least in the right spots and stepping confidently into shots. You give him a shot and you ride him out in that sort of situation. But these are, these are the kinds of games like you, you've gotta be willing to try something, but you've gotta have a quick hook for anybody who's out of it. Like if Russ comes in in a late first quarter shift and starts shitting the bed, you get him the hell out of there and you get him out of there quick. Because like, I mean this game flipped in that first quarter from being like a 10 point Denver lead to suddenly it was a neck and neck again. Again because Russ just lost control of his decision making for like a 90 second stretch in the late first quarter. And that could be the difference between going home and advancing to the next round. So to answer the question, I don't think it's about picking a guy right now. All of those guys are inconsistent. Julian Strothers, a kid relative to NBA talent, Like he had a great game tonight, but he could just as easily go over six with a bunch of mistakes in game seven. Russell Westbrook, same sort of range of outcomes. Michael Porter Jr. Same sort of range of outcomes. I think Peyton Watson's a, a much higher floor but a lower ceiling option in the sense that he's not going to do a ton for you offensively. But there's a higher floor there. And I think to I'll give you a more concrete answer like this. If the shit hits the fan and everyone's playing poorly, I'd close with Watson. What do you think Jackson? Would you close with Watson if everyone else is struggling?
- [41:49]
Host
I was going to say the same thing. I would close with Watson sort of. That's my initial reaction, but especially if no one has really has it going just because his defensive ability is, is he's kind of a game changing defensive player. That transition block on Jalen Williams was insane when OKC was trying to make sort of regain control of it for a second there. An insane play. And he's also less, you know, he's less likely to make a big shot but he's less likely to make a stupid mistake on that. And like Russ might is sort of, you know, Russ is very talented but he's prone to mistakes. Michael Porter Jr. Is prone to some bad shot selection at time times and Julian Strother even compared to Peyton Watson is a child. So I think Peyton Watson's floor is definitely, and his defensive capabilities is where I would lean.
- [42:33]
Jason
Yeah, I totally agree with you.
- [42:34]
Host
Especially, especially in a game seven that's likely to be very physical, likely to be very low scoring where you probably don't even want Michael Porter Jr. Taking a shot with a minute left anyways. I don't even care if it's a bad, if it's a hard shot. I want Yokicher Murray taking the shot anyways. So considering that's the case, it's like go with the defense.
- [42:50]
Jason
I'm glad you brought this up too because I think this is important for a mentality thing for Jokic. Like, like I, I, it bothered me in game five that he took that crazy fade away over Chad at the top of the key and I thought he, it was a decent look for Michael Porter Jr. At the top of the key. But I, he had a size advantage in the middle of the floor. He could have gone to another turnaround or a hook in the middle of the floor and he just sprayed it out instead. And I, I, I'm not trying to be too Critical, because over the years, I, I'd like. I've rooted for a player in LeBron James who did the exact same thing. Trusting Danielle Marshall, trusting Ky, whoever it was. But like, there is a certain amount of, like, when you're dealing with these star archetypes, the Jokic, LeBron types, they're the make the right play guys. And there'll be moments at the end of games where you're like, you gotta shoot the ball. But then with the Kobe, Kevin Durant, Michael Jordan types, there will be times where it's like, bro, you got three dudes on you. You got to trust your teammates. And that's kind of just like the give and take of those different archetypes of players.
- [43:49]
Host
Yeah, yeah. That's sort of the inherent challenge.
- [43:52]
Jason
Yeah, exactly.
- [43:53]
Host
A little bit. A couple more questions, then we'll go over the playback. If OKC loses in game seven, if okc, now that would be a second, second round exit. You know, back to a second round, back to back years with their only series wins coming against an injured Pelicans team. And then the Grizzlies this year. Does that say anything greater about the Thunder and their flaws? Or is it just they ran into two tough matchups in back to back seasons?
- [44:17]
Jason
I think it's just the simple fact that every single player in the rotation, other than Alex, Alex Caruso, is 26 or younger. Like, there is a real youth and inexperience problem with Oklahoma City. And frankly, we've never seen a team this young have championship level success in the NBA. It has literally never happened. Like, that's my thing. Like with the way that Oklahoma City was discussed during the regular season, I. I viewed them as a legitimate championship threat. I ranked him second. But NBA history tells us that teams like this don't win now. They win like two or three years from now when they have lost a bunch of times and as a result of that have made these like, seemingly minuscule improvements. But in a way that manifests specifically in the playoff setting. It's basically, they basically get better at getting their regular season success to translate to the postseason because they've just been there so many times. They're just so comfortable. And I just can't tell you how many times in my life I've seen playoff series where the older, more experienced team just looks more comfortable than the younger, inexperienced team. It is not a hard or fast rule. There are teams that buck that trend. But the whole thing is like, if Oklahoma City wins game seven and then they beat Minnesota and then they Beat whoever comes out of the East. They. They are breaking a trend. They are breaking a historical NBA trend, which is that super young teams don't win at this level. And frankly, Jackson, like, I, the reason the series is going 7 is the youth and inexperience of Oklahoma City. They are a better basketball team than Denver. They have controlled large portions of this series. But, yo, like, I'm watching these dudes and I'm watching Jamal, and I'm watching Aaron Gordon and I'm watching Jokic. These guys have been in wars over years. They have seen it all. And so there's just a level of comfortability that they have in these settings. And as far as the big picture goes for Oklahoma City, let's say they lose. There's a certain conversation to have about, like, okay, well, you have all this draft compensation. What are you going to do? Just keep drafting players and then letting them walk? Like, you got to do something with these picks. And, you know, maybe that ends up being them trading for a big, rangy wing, which is the kind of player they don't really have. They just don't have that, like, six, eight, you know, Jaden McDaniels type of player. Maybe it is a super aggressive star trade sort of thing, but ultimately, what's going to put them over the top is their experience. It's going to be Shea having more games like tonight and fewer games like he's had the rest of this playoff run. It's going to be Chet going from a guy that, like, can completely disappear for large portions of the game to a guy that leverages his gifts for the entirety of the 42, 43 minutes that he's on the floor. That's what's going to put these guys over the top. I remember watching the. One of my favorite examples of this was the 2012 NBA Finals between the Thunder and the Heat. And there was a rebound on a. On a missed free throw, a Heat free throw in game five that Shane Battier came away with. And this was, if you remember that Thunder team, they were so athletic. And Shane, the old slow guy, beat everyone to the ball. And it's because, like, he just has been in so many games that he understands that that singular moment was just as important as every other possession in the game. And that if you engage and fight for every inch, you might gain 3 or 4 inches over the course of that game. That could be the difference between winning and losing, which could be the difference in the series. And you go back to that series, every fucking game was right down to the final possessions to like the Katie Near Fallon. Game two to like Game three and Game four. Both came down to clutch situations. I even think back to LeBron and pulp Pierce going for a loose ball in the 2007. Game 7 between the Cavs and the Celtics, where LeBron had 45 or whatever and Paul Pierce had 42 or whatever. Paul Pierce's old fat ass beat LeBron to the ball because he's just an old dude who just understands that every inch of the game is worth fighting for. And there are just so many missed opportunities with the Thunder, so many bad shots early in the clock, so many silly mistakes just simply because they haven't understood through time and experience how valuable every possession is in a basketball game.
- [48:51]
Host
Yeah, I last year when the Celtics won it all, I looked this up because I was curious as a Celtics fan, how many teams in this century have won with their best player being 26 or younger? Not many. It's like Steph in their first title year, Dwyane Wade and then that's pretty much it because Kobe was not the best player on those early Lakers teams. Right. And that's just for the best player, never mind the rest of the roster. Both of those teams that had their best player 26 years old had legitimate had multiple contributing vets. Drew Holiday, Al Horford, Kristaps Porzingis in his last run, Andrew Bogan and Andre.
- [49:25]
Jason
Iguodala in Sean Livingston. Livingston. Yeah, right.
- [49:30]
Host
Like it's. It takes for. Even for your. If you're. Never mind the whole contract of your team. If your best player is young, you're probably not going to win. And if your best player is young, you're going to need more than one rotation impactful vet most of the time. Most of the time.
- [49:43]
Jason
Nope. I totally agree.
- [49:45]
Host
Do one more question and then we'll go over to playback. Sort of a more general question. What makes a player fun to watch for you.
- [49:56]
Jason
You know, this is fascinating. I saw some people debating this on on Twitter between Jason Tatum and Anthony Edwards and this concept of aura. And I do think that that plays a big role with casual fans. I think there. I think there's a aura like a confidence of bravado, a backing up of that confidence in bravado with your play. I think that there are certain players that fans see act a certain way and they kind of see through it. You'll see that sometimes too, in a negative way. I think that basketball players enjoy watching talented basketball players. Like, I don't think it's a coincidence that Everyone, every time I talk to a basketball player, like a person who's played extensively in their life, they love Steph and they love LeBron. But then you talk to a casual fan and they love one guy, hate the next guy because it's all about aura. It's all about who they're rooting for. It's all about like these different things. I think that it kind of just depends on the kind of person you are. For me, I gravitate to like specific basketball traits. Like, even with the guys that I don't necessarily like, like Joel Embiid, I'm impressed by his footwork. James Harden, I've literally stolen his footwork on step back threes. I use him all the time. A guy like, like with Embiid specifically too, he's got like really strong footwork on like his pivot moves, on his turnarounds over both shoulders. There's like a, there's a certain element of, of like imitation is the sincerest form of flattery that you'll see with basketball players too. Like Shay. Shay is a player that. One of the moves that he's been working on that I've been, that he's been using a lot in the last couple years that I've been working on a ton of is that hesitation dribble where you kind of turn sideways and then you just kind of probe with a jab step and you just cover ground going back towards your left for a step back three. That's like a, like a really fascinating basketball move that I think is really useful for a dribble drive guard just because it, he sells the left handed drive with that move and he'll drive out of that move a lot of times, but then he'll just pull back out of it with that step back. So for basketball players, I think they're attracted to like specific basketball skills and traits. I think for casual fans, it's a lot of aura, that kind of stuff. And then I do. I think there's something to be said about just like must see TV kinds of stuff. So for instance, like, you want to know why Steph and LeBron have crazy amounts of fans? Because there's nothing like a Steph heater. When you watch a Steph heater, it is one of the most incredible, incredible bits of television you'll ever see. Older LeBron has been a tougher watch, but younger LeBron was like the most incredible freight train athlete you've ever seen. It was like if Zion took care of his body, like it was, it was literally insane. And so there is a certain like must see TV element to to it as well. All right guys, that's all we have for tonight. As always, we sincerely appreciate you guys for supporting us and supporting the show. Head over to Playback TV Slash Hoops tonight. We'll be there in just a couple minutes for our after show. What's up guys? As always, I appreciate you for listening to and supporting Hoops tonight. It would actually be really helpful for us if you guys would take a second and leave a range rating and a review. As always, I appreciate you guys supporting us, but if you could take a minute to do that, I'd really appreciate it.
- [53:03]
Jackson
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Dan Flores
Why is a soap opera western like Yellowstone so wildly successful? The American west with Dan Flores is the latest show from the Meat Eater Podcast Network. So join me starting Tuesday, May 6, where we'll delve into stories of the west and come to understand how it helps inform the ways in which we experience the region today.
- [55:13]
Jason
Listen to the American west with Dan Flores on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
- [55:20]
Host
You're listening to an iHeart podcast.