← The Herd with Colin Cowherd
The Herd with Colin Cowherd
Hoops Tonight - LIVE: PACERS TO FINALS REACTION: Tyrese Haliburton & Pascal Siakam ELITE in Game 6 win vs Brunson & Knicks
00:42:57
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- [00:00]
Jason
This is an iHeart podcast.
- [00:05]
Colin Cowherd
T Mobile's stats are as impressive as your favorite athlete's highlight reel, because T Mobile helps keep you connected from the heart of Portland to right where you are on America's largest 5G network switch. Now keep your phone and T Mobile will pay it off up to $800 per line via prepaid card. Visit your local T Mobile location or learn more@t mobile.com KeepAndSwitch up to four lines via virtual prepaid card. Allow 15 days qualify and unlock device credit service port in 90 plus days device and eligible carrier and timely redemption. Required card has no cash access and expires in six months.
- [00:35]
Jason
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Colin Cowherd
You still quoting 30 year old movies?
- [01:05]
Jason
Have you said cool beans in the past 90 days?
- [01:08]
Colin Cowherd
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Jason
Discover is accepted at 99% of places that take credit cards nationwide, and every time you make a purchase with your.
- [01:19]
Colin Cowherd
Card, you automatically earn cash back.
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Jason
Welcome to the now it pays to Discover.
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Colin Cowherd
Learn more@discover.com credit card based on the February 2024 Nilsen report okay, have you heard about this?
- [01:33]
Unknown
Last year, Degree changed the formula for their Cool Rush deodorant. The fans rebelled and wanted the old scent back, and degree listened. And that doesn't happen often. They admitted they effed up and are bringing the original Cool Rush scent back. And it's exactly how you remember it. Cool, crisp and fresh. A reason why it's the number one man's antiperspirant. And it's back in Walmart, Target and other stores now for under $4. So try it and see what the fuss is about. Head to your local Walmart Target and try to OG Cool Rush for yourself.
- [02:01]
Colin Cowherd
The volume.
- [02:05]
Jason
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Download the DraftKings Sportsbook App and use code HOOPS. That's code HOOPS H O O P S for new customers to get $300 in bonus bets if your bet wins and when you bet just five bucks only on DraftKings, the crown is yours. Gambling problem call 1-800- gambler in New York, call 8778 hopeny or text hopeny to 467-369 in Connecticut. Help is available for problem gambling. Call 888-789-7777 or visit ccpg.org Please play responsibly on behalf of Boothill Casino and Resort in Kansas. 21 plus. Age and eligibility varies by jurisdiction. Void in Ontario. Bet must win to receive reward. Bonus bets expire 168 hours after issuance. For additional terms and responsible gaming resources, see DKNG Co Audio. All right, welcome to Hoops Tonight here at the Volume. Happy Saturday everybody. Hope all of you guys are having a great start to your weekend. Well, we have our 2025 NBA Finals between the Oklahoma City Thunder in the Indiana Pacers. As the tail end of the series went more or less as I kind of expected it would at the beginning of the series, I thought that the Pacers would win in six. The only thing that got kind of flipped around is the Pacers stole an extra game in New York and the Knicks stole an extra game in Indiana. But the Knicks actually came out and brought a decent amount of fight through the first two quarters. Dominated the offensive glass, but way too many mistakes throughout, especially in their transition defense, especially with like missed free throws and just turnovers. Things along those lines and ultimately the team that was more disciplined and that had a kind of a more attention to detail throughout the season and a team that practiced playing a sharper brand of basketball and got the job done and we're going to be talking about that off the top, we'll talk a little bit about the game itself. We'll look ahead to the NBA Finals for a little bit. We'll talk about the Knicks and just some of my frustrations with them and what the future looks like. And then at the tail end of the show, we'll take 10, 15 minutes of questions from our chat. So make sure you guys get some questions in the chat. You guys know the drill before we get started. Subscribe to the Hoops Tonight YouTube channel so you don't miss any more of our videos. Follow me on Twitter at_jason lt so you guys don't miss show announcements. Forget about our podcast feed. Wherever you get your podcasts under Hoops Tonight, it's also super helpful if you leave a lady a rating and a review on that front. Jackson's doing great work on our social media feeds on Twitter, Instagram, Facebook and TikTok. Make sure you guys follow us there. And last but not least, keep dropping those questions in the chat so that we can get to them at the tail end of the show. When we finish here tonight, we're going to be moving over to Playback. That's Playback TV Hoops Tonight there, we're going to be taking callers watching some film talk, just hanging out, kind of like a informal basketball hour that we have as the Hoops Tonight community. Just kind of having fun. We bring fans up from the teams there, there. We got some Pacers fans that I'm looking forward to having their moment tonight. If you guys want to join us over there, just go to Playback TV Slash Hoops Tonight as soon as we Finish here on YouTube. All right, let's talk some basketball. So I want to start by just saying congratulations to the Pacers and to to Pacers fans, this is a huge deal making it to the Finals. If you don't think so, all you have to do is look around in recent NBA history and look at how inconsistent anybody's been in terms of getting to the Finals since KD left the Warriors. And one of the things that I think has stood out to me in a big way in this particular playoff run is these two teams that have made it. There are obviously talent. There's talent involved, right? Even with Indiana, like Pascal Siakam's a hell of a player. Tyrese Halliburton's a hell of a player. Nemhard Nith Turner going to the bench, getting contributions from guys like Thomas Bryant, Nobi Toppin. We're gonna be talking about all these guys today, but I would Say the Pacers are not, are not necessarily the most talented roster in the league in terms of just overwhelming talent. The Thunder definitely have a lot of talent, but they're not, you know, like what the Celtics were last year in terms of like just a bunch of like certified, like six like certified high level veteran starters that have been in wars and that have been super experienced through previous playoff runs. And like the, specifically looking at the, the compared to other like super talented teams in recent NBA history like the Kevin Durant warriors or like LeBron, Dwyane Wade, Chris Bosh, he, they're not on that level, but they just put together one of the most dominant seasons through to the end of the conference finals that we've seen in recent NBA history. And it's a casual reminder for all of us that when you play great basketball it makes it a lot easier to win. Like make no mistake guys, this series was one. This series, Pacers, Knicks was one on the margins. The Pacers scored more than twice as many points off of turnovers in this series than the Knicks did before tonight. And then they put the nail in the Coffin with a 34 point in transition night point off of turnover night. 34 points off of turnovers for the Pacers, 13 points off of turnovers for the Knicks. Gigantic margin. And as far as like any sort of, you know, oh, we're, we're selling out to the offensive glass. That's why we're not getting, we're not getting back in transition and we're going to talk a little bit about that with the Knicks in a little bit as they put together quite possibly the most embarrassing night of transition defense I've ever watched as the Pacers in a must win elimination game just got leak out after leak out after leak out. But like whatever offensive rebound advantage there was coming into tonight, the Knicks got just two and a half points more on second chance points than the Pacers did. The, the Pacers dominated this series on the margins. Talent goes a long way. I would argue on paper this Knicks team is flat out more talented than the Pacers. Which is why we talked about when the Knicks were at their best. They actually had moments in the series where they looked like a better team. Brief moments, but moments. But that's not all that goes into making a good basketball team. You have to win by playing great basketball. It doesn't matter who's on the floor. If you're not playing great basketball, you're not going to win. And talent can bring a certain amount of great basketball to the table by sheer force of competitive will and that talent. But it can't cross all the boxes. It can't do all the things that you need to do to win games. I talked about coming into tonight, if you guys remember, I said, I know what to expect from the Pacers. I know they're going to pick up full court and bring just a hellacious defensive effort. Andrew Nemhard tonight just like single handedly chopped the head off the Knicks offense all night by just making Jalen Brunson's life a living hell. All of those turnovers are forced by that ball pressure, by playing passing lanes, by maintaining a simple defensive identity that this team has had for damn near six months now. This is who they are. This is what they do every single game. Oh, you scored. We don't care. We're already running. You see, like when you watch the Pacers, you could see it when a dude gets an advantage and goes all the way in for a layup. Dudes are already starting running the other way because they know they have an opportunity to erase that quickly with a kick ahead pass. There is even just down the stretch of the game, just the quick whirling actions at the top of the key. Two man action, three man action, Steady diet of Tyrese Halliburton on ball. Like picking cat apart with floaters. Making simple reads to guys slipping out of screens like OB Topping out to the top of the key. Or I'll be topping slipping down the lane for a dunk. Just easy read. Oh, Cats too far. Or Cats coming up to the level and putting two on the ball. We're just going to drop it back to Obi toppin at the top of the key for a three. Oh, Cats up at the level and they're not tagging the the low man. And we're running a stack action and someone's slipping to the top of the key toppins rolling. Hit him with the bounce pass. He's dunking it with one hand. There is a steady basketball identity that has been built out from the top down with the Pacers that carries them into a situation where then their talent can put them over the top. And yes, there have been moments. Aaron Neesmith shooting in game one, right. Tyrese Halliburton throughout the series. Pascal Siakam tonight just getting bucket after bucket. There's a lot of talent there, but the talent is put in position to succeed because the Pacers have put in the work to make themselves an extremely sharp and disciplined basketball team. Let me just put it to you in a Very basic way. Teams that don't get back in transition and give up layup lines off of made baskets are not champion basketball teams. They are not champions. Champions don't do that. Champions don't make silly, sloppy mistakes over over and over again. They don't make fixable mistakes over and over again. They identify their mistakes. They rectify them. I'd argue this was in game six, the worst transition defense night that the Knicks had several possessions where all five dudes are south of the free throw line, meaning there's nobody up at the top of the key, ready in back court balance. I saw multiple examples. A couple of guys that I caught, Landry Shama and Mitchell Robinson, in situations where they're back but they're not paying attention and someone's behind them. Like, that's basic stuff. Ball, rim, spread out to shooters. That's literally the process of transition defense. If you have your balance set, meaning as if you've got a driver and a roller coming off the top of the key, you have your guys relocate off the corner so that there's somebody north of the foul line that can get back in transition. This is basic stuff, guys. We teach this in high school. This is not advanced basketball schematics. Floor, balance, get back, stop ball, protect the rim. At the very least, make them make a three. But, I mean, there were. There was a missed free throw, a missed free throw for the Knicks. I think it was Cat, where the Pacers just swung the ball off the floor and got a wide open three for Aaron Neesmith on a free throw. That. That is just straight up not a championship basketball team. You don't see the Pacers making those kinds of mistakes. You don't see the Thunder making those kinds of mistakes. And it's just a casual reminder, like, we can talk about player movement this summer. We can talk about theoretic theory, theoretical basketball fit for Giannis with Victor. We, the spurs and the Knicks. We could talk about with the Knicks, like, what if they trade Cat for KD or. Or something like that. None of it matters if you don't use the regular season to practice playing great basketball, because ultimately it's going to be what decides your fate. The Knicks had so many chances to win this game. 34 points off of turnovers, you're dead on arrival. I just thought it was such an interesting juxtaposition in this series. Two teams, very talented Knicks, probably more talented Knicks, when they're at their best, look a little bit better. Didn't matter because the Pacers were steady. The pacers were steady and played Pacers basketball and just waited for the Knicks to soil themselves and inevitably they did. Yeah, it doesn't, it doesn't matter who you are. You can run the floor. It doesn't matter who you are. You can do these basic things that Rick Carlisle has these guys doing on every single possession and you will grab a ton of low hanging fruit and you're going to give yourself a great chance to win games. Pascal Siakam was absolutely amazing tonight. He's a classic example of what I'm talking about with those run outs. Sorry, the ESPN website isn't pulling up the box score is going to just play an ad. There's a, there's this thing that Pascal Siakam has been doing this entire postseason, just pushing the ball up the floor. Like every time that there's any sort of opportunity, he's leaking out and it's just, they're throwing it to him like he's a wide receiver running his streak and he's just catching it and making a quick move against a one on one or maybe getting a dunk. He gets all sorts of opportunities like that. The pick and pop action, just hitting important threes at the top of the key. The quick isos, the quick turnarounds over both shoulders, the getting to the foul line. Like Siakam was an absolute monster tonight. Andrew Nemhard was doing such a good job on Jalen Brunson. You could literally see the frustration building to like a fever pitch. I was texting Jackson during the game. I was like, we're like one more hard bump in like a 15 point game from this turning into some sort of physical altercation between Brunson and Nemhard because they were like jawing at each other. But that's the thing. Nemhard, like, I admire the hell out of this from basketball players. Nemhard had a rough series offensively, couldn't make a shot to save his life. A lot of like uncharacteristic decisions on drives and in the decision zone kind of there in the middle of the floor. But like what do I always say? What do I always say? Just make a play. Find a way to do something that helps your team win the game. And Aaron Neesmith's having an ankle issue. I don't know if that was the reason why they did the switch today or if Nemhar just straight up went to Rick Carlisle and said, hey, I'm sucking on offense right now. Give me something where I can like pour my heart and soul into it and try to make something happen. But he just did as good a job guarding one of the best point guards in the league as you'll see. And then you could tell he was leaving his jump shot short. Then he hits two massive threes in the second half. And on those threes, you could literally see Nemhard, like, dip super low even though he's wide open. You could see him dip super low to get his legs into the shot. And it's like, just make one. Just make one. And then it doesn't matter that you had a rough series. No one cares about Nemhard having a rough series now because in game six, he locked Jalen Brunson up and hit a couple of huge baskets down the stretch. A couple of big drop coverage shots too. Like, he stayed in it mentally, never let go of the rope, and found a way to leave a lasting imprint on the series. But before it was done, Obi Toppin. I thought there were several key sequences tonight where he made plays that kind of were like, like what I would consider, like ceiling raising type of plays where not necessarily in the flow of the game, but like shots that are being conceded and you have no choice but to beat the coverage by knocking down those shots. Big pick and pop three at the top of the key. Late that roll late in the game, there was a three that he hit kind of off of movement in the. I think it was in the early second quarter where there's a, a really good defensive possession from the Knicks where everybody's doing all the right stuff. And then I think Katt was lazy on one little DHO at the top of the key. And he just rises and fires from like 26ft off the move, rises up and knocks it down. His run his lane running in transition all series long. He was awesome. Thomas Bryant, three massive threes out of the corners in this game tonight. Every single one of them felt like a huge shotgun blast to the chest for the Knicks. Just massive, massive shots. And then I thought, Tyrese Halliburton, you know, he's been facing the brunt of the aggressive aggression in the Knicks coverages in the series in, like taking simple reads like there in that second half, he really started to assert himself in control of the offense and like, oh, you're leaving topping on the pop. I'm going to hit this. Oh, you're leaving topping on the roll? I'm going to hit this. Okay, you're going to let me operate in this soft ass February drop coverage. I'm just going to hit floater after floater after floater. I thought Halliburton was fantastic. Just, just a just a wire to wire super super impressive playoff run from the Pacers. And now they're in the final Blending.
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Ryan Seacrest
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- [19:42]
Colin Cowherd
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- [20:12]
Ryan Seacrest
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- [21:15]
Unknown
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- [22:05]
Colin Cowherd
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- [22:12]
Jason
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Colin Cowherd
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- [22:36]
Jason
The finals, I think the first key is going to be managing ball pressure. As you guys as you guys have seen in this series, there have been several stretches where the Knicks did some damage to the Pacers with their ball pressure. The Thunder are just way better at it. They've got better defenders, more of them, better matchups too. They're not like big lanky dudes that are not necessarily as quick footed as Tyrese Halliburton. They've got guys that are quicker than Tyrese Halliburton that'll be on him the entire series. And so everything's going to be about managing that ball pressure. I think it's going to be vitally important for the Pacers to have success attacking in the post through Pascal Siakam and Miles Turner. One of the reasons why is if if Alberton does his job, which is handle the ball pressure, doesn't turn the ball over and OKC is super aggressive with their coverages two on the ball, packing the paint, playing passing lanes and Halliburton makes the passes and the Pacers shoot them out of it, Mark Dagonaut will default to more switching and to staying home off ball. And in that, in that setting, it is no longer a Halliburton series in terms of ISO scoring. The advantage against the Thunder is they're small on the perimeter and so it's got to be Siakam. And as we saw in the Minnesota series and in the Denver series, it's extremely difficult to make post entries against the Thunder. They three quarter front, they full front, they bracket from behind, they do all sorts of stuff to make that passing angle difficult. And if OKC goes to switching and goes to staying home, the key to the series will be getting the ball to Siakam, to Turner, deep Seals and then that being the entry point. Either high quality twos right at the front of the rim or drawing multiple defenders to get the defense in rotation. Ultimately, if you want the Pacers to play Pacers basketball, they're going to have to manage ball pressure and they're going to have to move the ball efficiently through Oklahoma City's aggressive defense. And it's going to be a very, very different challenge. I look at this series as a particularly tough one for the Pacers early on because they are just not excited exposed to this level of defense yet. The Bucks obviously were horrendous all year. The Knicks were horrendous all year. The Cavs, sneaky, were mediocre on defense for basically the second half of the year. This is arguably the greatest defense that we've seen in recent NBA history. So it's going to be a very, very different sort of challenge for them. But they do in theory. What do I always say? What do you need to beat Oklahoma City's defense? You need size, you need playmaking and you need shooting. And they do have the size. It just comes in the form of Siakam. Right. They have tons of playmaking talent and everyone can shoot. But it's in a matchup where the Pacers typically have a lot of success with their guard play. TJ McConnell, Tyrese Halliburton, Andrew Nemhard, even Neesmith to a certain extent. Ben, Ben Matherin. In a series like this, those guys don't have the advantage all of a sudden. It's going to be a lot of pressure on Siakam to be that guy who's initiating the offense with size and then as a team playmaking out of it in finishing plays by knocking down shots, handling game plan tweaks. As I said, I think Dagmilt will come out with their base pressure scheme and load up scheme, but I think it's very possible that they pivot out of that and the Pacers are going to have to have some different punches in their bag. Guarding Shea on the other end of the four we saw the Timberwolves have more success in their series with quicker defenders on Shay. Kind of like more of a beating him to spot style approach and forcing him to shoot over the top. The Pacers have lots of guys that can do that. The Pacers in theory have personnel that matches up reasonably well with Oklahoma City. I'm not I'm actually a lot more bullish on the Pacers ability to get stops against Oklahoma City than I am on their ability to score, which is hilarious considering the strength of this Pacers team is their offense. But guarding Shay again, it's going to be a steady diet of Niece Smith and Nemhard and T.J. mcConnell beating him to spots, not getting handsy to where you can get in trouble with the with the whistle and then forcing him into a bunch of mid range jump shots and then forcing kickouts. Again, the finals are stressful. Totally different setting, totally different level of intensity, totally different media presence, totally different production quality. It is a foreign entity compared to the rest of the NBA playoffs. There's a lot of young dudes in that Thunder locker room and so I you have to foreshade a pass and force these young inexperienced players to knock down, catch and shoot jump shots. We are going to start I'm going to start watching film for Pacers Thunder tomorrow morning. We will have a bunch of preview content coming out on Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, next week. I will keep you guys posted as soon as we have a more firm schedule. But keep an eye on my Twitter feed tomorrow morning cause I'll probably be watching some of that film and just kind of tweeting out little things that I find interesting. But we will have our first bit of Finals coverage starting on Monday on the Knicks front before we get to our mailbag. To put it very simply, we can talk about what they want to do with the roster. I think Karl Anthony Towns has proven pretty resoundingly to this point that he is a guy that has a certain ceiling. That ceiling is he's inconsistent as an offensive player and downright bad as a defensive player as the leverage and intensity of the situation gets higher later in the playoffs. And this is back to back years in the conference finals where I could almost like specifically point to him as a big part of why they lost. And it's there are just certain guys that are not built for this style of basketball in this sort of setting. And to have a salary slot as large as Cats for a player that is as damaging as he was, as they were just picking him apart on defense in this game, Way too deep in his drop. Sometimes active up high, but giving up easy pocket passes at other times. He's a brutal part of their bad transition defense. It's all of the above. So we can talk about pivoting off of Cat. That's what I would do. I would pivot off of Cat and I would build around defense around Brunson. This has to be a sharper, better, deeper defensive team. All that's fine. None of it matters if you don't play a sharper brand of basketball. And some of this is on tips. Tom Thibodeau is the coach of this team and by the sixth game of the series his team looked like it had no idea how to handle the Pacers in transition. And it wasn't like, oh my God, they're pushing the ball at the floor and we're doing our job, but they're just putting us in a blender of quick transition action. No, these are wide open kick ahead leak out dunks and wide open kick out threes. There is a reality with Tom Thibodeau that he trusts the top end of his roster so much that he leans on them so heavily that it's kind of impossible for him to be as detail oriented as he needs to be. How could you be that detail oriented when a guy's playing 40 something minutes a night? There's too many opportunities for fatigue to enter into the equation they have. The Knicks have to regardless of what roster changes are made starting in early October next year, culturally, from the top down, Embrace a sharper and more detail oriented brand of basketball. You lost your opportunity to go to the finals this year because you were an undisciplined team, not because you didn't have the talent to hang with the Pacers. Easy way to do that. Be more willing to use your bench. From day one we're running a nine, ten man rotation. Here are our basic defensive principles. Does that mean you need to pick a full court all series or all season? No, but come up with some basic things. We are going to pressure the ball after half court at a bare minimum because that is a easy way to just make ball handlers uncomfortable, which can have all sorts of trickle, trickle down effects in the game in general. I think the Brunson Bridges, OG Anunoby, specifically Hart Bridges and Anobi are just so good in transition. You got to try to feed as many transition opportunities as possible and you're going to do that with ball pressure at a bare minimum. Ball pressure at half court at a bare minimum. A basic set of like three different coverages that you trust in man to man situations based with Brunson and with Cat or whoever it is that you bring back and then attention to detail throughout the season, making sure that these are sharp so you don't have breakdowns taking place in the playoffs where like dudes are pointing at each other like you're supposed to do this, you're supposed to do that. You looked like that all season. Not surprised that you looked like that when it came down, when it came time to get the job done in the playoffs. There is a, there is an order of operations to being a champion and it starts in October with attention to detail. It's mandatory. Tell me, tell me the time. Can, can anybody think of like a sloppy basketball team that won the title? The Celtics last year weren't sloppy. The Nuggets weren't sloppy in 2023. The warriors weren't sloppy. The Bucks weren't sloppy. The Lakers weren't sloppy. That's like a, that's literally a non negotiable. You cannot get to the promised land if you practice playing sloppy basketball. So regardless of what the Knicks do this summer, that is a non negotiable. They need a basketball culture reset. Either someone needs to sit down with Tibbs and be like, hey dude, we got to change our approach. Stop riding everybody super high minutes, extend your rotation and actually start holding these guys accountable to the details and night in and night out throughout the regular season. That way we can be the best version of ourselves when we get to June, when we get to May, or if he's not up for it and you need to change a voice in the locker room, make a move and bring in a coach that can be the guy that highlights that low hanging fruit. The Pacers aren't going anywhere. The Celtics are going to be in a pivot year, obviously. The Bucks are going to be in a pivot year, obviously. The east is going to be pretty open, but you're going to be right back here, maybe in round two, maybe around three, dealing with the Pacers. And what am I going to be saying? I know what I'm getting from the Pacers because the Pacers have a top down basketball identity from Kevin Pritchard to Rick Carlisle, all the way down that roster, starting with Tyrese Halliburton. This is the way they play. They don't cut corners and so they are always the very best version of themselves and that's why they're going to the finals.
- [33:20]
Colin Cowherd
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Ryan Seacrest
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- [34:50]
Unknown
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- [35:42]
Ryan Seacrest
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- [36:44]
Jason
All right, Jackson's going to come on. We're going to take some questions.
- [36:48]
Unknown
Let's do it. First question, Pascal Siakam won Eastern Conference Finals mvp. Do you feel like Halliburton got snubbed?
- [36:56]
Jason
I'm going to say no just simply because there were stretches of this series where Tyrese Halliburton was somewhat, you know, disengaged as a product of the defensive scheme that he was facing. And I did think Siakam was more or less as good as Halliburton. It just manifests in different ways. Like with Tyrese Halliburton, he's always going to be better than what the box score will lead you to believe simply because of the. Simply because of the advantage creation aspect. But with Pascal Siakam, like, he's been the guy who they've leaned on for, like, oh, this isn't working. We need to create a shot. Like, he's the guy. He's the one guy who can go get a bucket and by the way, in the game two win, 39 points. In the game four win, 30 points. In the game six win, 31 points. So in three of their four wins he had over 30 points. I'm not going to call that a snub under any circumstances.
- [37:50]
Unknown
He's such a stabilizer for them and such a floor raiser. It's, it's hard to think about teams that have their second best player. I think it's even though he was, you know, the series mvp, Halliburton's their best player. It's, it's, it's not that many examples of teams, but their second best player is such a stabilizer for them. It's really interesting and impressive from his.
- [38:10]
Jason
From his standpoint, he's a pretty consistent player too with just the way that he runs. I will say he was rough in game five and that was definitely an unusual one. The entire team was kind of bad in game five, but yeah, that was definitely bad. The, I also thought that he did a great job on Cat defensively tonight. Kept stonewalling him on those like bully ball drives and was attacking the basketball and forcing him to lose control. Like Seattle was just awesome. And I think, I mean we can all admit this. I thought he'd like straight up flat out outplayed Cat head to head in the series.
- [38:41]
Unknown
Yeah, definitely. And the, I mean we, we on this show and you are not expecting the Pacers to win the Finals, but if the Pacers win the Finals, we're going to have to have some Pascal Siakam conversations as he will now be the second best player on multiple different championship teams with multiple franchises. Like that is not that many people can say that.
- [38:58]
Jason
I think it's just a classic example of like the, the simple dynamic that you and I have talked about so many times over the season in, in terms of just like the whole playoff riser thing is real and it all, it all comes down to some basic things to me. Like there's a certain like size and strength element to it. There's a certain versatility element to it. Those two things are vital because in the playoffs it just gets so physical and teams game plan you. So if you don't have, if you have too many weaknesses to expose rather than having a well rounded game, you'll run into issues. The third part of it is I, I'm, I'm a huge believer that like even amongst competitors there's levels to competitiveness. I always, I always joke about this but like I would much rather play in terms of Having a teammate, a foxhole guy. I would much rather play with a guy who hates losing than a guy who loves basketball. Now I want both. And the best players of all time are always both. But, like, I have a hard time relating to someone that doesn't, like, get fucking mad about losing. Like, angry, like viscerally upset about losing. Like, to me, that emotion, that hatred of losing is what drives a basketball player to be detail oriented and to not cut corners and to do all the things you've got to do and, like, say what you want about, you know, some of these dudes, like Andrew Nemhardt, for instance. But like, there is a. There is like a sheer competitive fire. Like he wanted to embarrass Jalen Brunson tonight down the stretch. Nemhardt did. And so, like, yeah, like, part of that playoff riser thing to me is always going to be that competitiveness. Like, do you have the will to fight more than the guy across from you?
- [40:37]
Unknown
Yeah. And the Pacers have. I mean, you could probably say that about a lot of their players, but specifically three in their starting lineup. I think Neesmith, Nemhardt, and Pascal are all very much that type of player.
- [40:47]
Jason
Classic playoff risers.
- [40:48]
Unknown
100%. Super chat from JM. Are Siakam and niece Smith the key to beating OKC? What would it take for Indy to beat OKC four times?
- [40:59]
Jason
I'm going to say yes to both of those because I think Neesmith will be the primary matchup on Shea. And if. If Neesmith can prevent Shea from getting easy dribble penetration so that it's not like you're badly compromised right off the bat over and over again with the screen navigation that he did in this series, I think that would go a long way. Jaden McDaniels in the conference finals, I thought, did an awful job of containing the ball in, like, in kind of a way that was so weird. It had me like, rethinking, like, defensive player archetypes. And Nismith is the kind of archetype, theoretically that is, like, he is so laterally quick that he should be able to, at least as long as he doesn't get screened, keep Shay reasonably in front. If he does, then Shea is going to be throwing kickouts to advantages that are like advantages, but not like, you know, the. The. Oh, my God. He got super deep into the paint and drew four bodies in. And this is like a standstill, closeout opportunity kind of thing. So N. Smith is the key to the defensive matchup. And then Siakam, to me, is the key to the offensive matchup, because I think there's a chance that Halliburton, like, straight up folds right to start this series. Like, that's. That that's on the table. Like, he. He's kind of done it against Dort before, and it could be something that becomes a problem. But either way, if Halliburton's fantastic to start the series because of the coverages, I think Dagnaut will audible to switching and to staying home. And if he does, it's going to become a matchup attacking series. And it'll be. I'll take it a step further. It'll be. It'll be N. Smith on ball, on Shea, it'll be Siakam attacking matchups. And then I think another guy that I would put as a key there is actually Ben Matheran, because I think Ben Matheran is one of the few guys who has the athleticism to like, just. To just break down Oklahoma City's defense at the point of attack.
- [42:49]
Unknown
That's a good segue into our next question, which is who is the most important pacer on offense other than Halliburton and Seoko? Offense only.
- [42:57]
Jason
Okay, it'll be. I want to take it a step further because Mather is obviously going to be in somewhat of a limited role. I think Miles Turner hitting pick and pop threes is such a huge, like, foundational thing. Like, if he's not hitting pick and pop. The reason you can run, drop. If you can run, drop, or excuse me, not even drop, you can run at the level. If you. If you can bring your big up to the level and not have to worry about Turner slipping out of the screen and hitting threes. That's. That's a huge. That. That's a huge upside to your defense. So, like, Turner hitting pick and pop threes, I think is huge, I would say, down the roster, shooting in general, shooting against really good closeouts. I think Matheran would probably be fourth for me there. Like, I think Matheran is going to be huge. Like, Nem Hard. To me, like, it kind of is what he is. You know, I'm not counting on him to be, like, the dominant force. But actually, you know what? We should probably move Nemhard up because if Halliburton does kind of succumb to the Dort thing, Nem Hard will be their point guard. And we looked in the regular season and in the footage we watched, Nem Hard was getting the ball over and over again.
- [44:03]
Unknown
He. Yeah, I was going to say tonight, it felt like because of the ball pressure from game five, it felt like they ran a handful more of those stacks. Spain, pick and rolls. With Nemhard being the lead ball handler and Halliburton being the third guy to sort of hopefully do. And I, I expect a lot of that, A lot of that.
- [44:19]
Jason
I think that's gonna have to be their, one of their pet actions in terms of like keeping Halliburton involved when he's being denied. It did seem like Nemhard got a little bit of his mojo back tonight, which I think would be key. Key.
- [44:31]
Unknown
Yeah, I agree. Next question. We'll take a couple more before playback. When was the last time that you can remember, if you can remember at all, that two, both finals teams played a 10, 11 man rotation. It's kind of crazy that both teams are, are sort of following that same model a little bit.
- [44:51]
Jason
I know. I like. Well, the, the Celtics were like pretty much running an eight man rotation last year. The Nuggets ran a tight rotation. The warriors ran a little bit of a longer rotation. But I still think it was like, it was like eight or nine.
- [45:02]
Ryan Seacrest
Yeah.
- [45:03]
Jason
That year because it was like looney and, and Otto Porter Jr. Jordan Pool.
- [45:11]
Unknown
Right.
- [45:11]
Jason
Yeah, I don't, I can't think of one. Yeah. Dude, that's, that's, that's crazy. Like, you know what's been interesting though is like we all have our ideologies and like I even have like a, a list that I always give out when someone says like, oh, what's the, the best way to build a basketball team? And I'm like, okay, you want a sk. You want an athlete guard, you want a kind of a skinnier perimeter, perimeter wing, a bigger forward. All that sounds great, but like you kind of. Two things. One, you don't know what kind of roster you're going to end up getting. And you kind of have to build your team around what that roster is. And then two, like there are more. There is more than one way to win a basketball game. There just. There's flat out is. And so like what's super fascinating is like you can win a basketball game being the Indiana Pacers picking up full court, playing at absurd pace and blah blah, blah. You can also win a basketball game being like the Dallas Mavericks last year and like walking the ball up the court with Luca and just like methodically walking teams down with half court offense. Like there's, there's more than one way to skin a cat, so to speak like that. It just is. It's fascinating to me that we've Seen these two particular teams match up because it kind of felt very war of attritiony at times in this postseason. And these are the younger, deeper teams that, that play this like, kind of hellacious style. But they also don't tax any of their players that much because they keep minutes down. Like, it's kind of like a super fascinating concept. And I, I want to emphasize too, there are guys in these rotations that like, if they were playing for your team, you probably wouldn't think they're as good as they look on the Pacers. So like, don't, don't underestimate the organizational element of making depth useful. Like, like I, I, like. I watched Jordan Goodwin be okay in other, in other situations, but I watched him with the Lakers be fantast. He's on a team that just needed an athletic guard that can do basic stuff like you need. You need to like, with your roster, draft players and go after players that fit an identity that matches your team. So that in the regular season, whether you're using the 15th man or the eighth man, there's like this role that just like makes sense in your offense that like this guy's like, top. Obi Toppin comes in and plays the same role that Siakam plays lit, like literally. And, and he, It's a rough approximation of it, but he comes in and does the same thing. And because he has some useful skills that kind of fit into that role, it makes him a useful player. Like, I don't think it's a coincidence that Landry Shamit looked useful in this series. Like Landry. There are a lot of players like Landry Shamit out there in the league that can play playoff minutes for you as long as you set up the appropriate structure for them to thrive in.
- [47:52]
Unknown
We'll take two more questions. This one's a super chat from Matt. Thank you for the super chat. He says, he says not an NBA expert, but there seems to be some sort of intangible switch or crunch time magic to this Pacers team that I can't put my finger on. Is that crazy? What, what can you attribute that to?
- [48:08]
Jason
So I do. Okay, I want. I think I'm gonna. This is complicated. Cause I think on the one hand, I think it has as much to do with the other team letting go of the rope as it does with them. Them hitting a switch. I do think that they, they feel the magic a little bit. Like you could feel it in game one. Like, you could feel it in game one where it's like, oh, like they know they're like, we've done this before, we're going to do it again. Like, there's definitely a little bit of, like, they feel the magic, but at the same time, like, I would equate it to, they play the same way no matter what, regardless of the time in the game. And there is a natural human nature piece when a team goes up by 10, 15 points in the final four or five minutes where they just naturally relax. And that when you relax while the Pacers are still playing Pacers basketball, it just kind of naturally manifests in these, like, easy run outs and easy quick buckets. And that's more or less the genesis of it.
- [48:57]
Unknown
Yeah. Last question before we go over to Playback. The next question. If you had to pick one big change for the Knicks this summer between these two, would you, Jason, Tim, choose to trade Cat or Fire Tibbs?
- [49:10]
Jason
Have to choose one.
- [49:11]
Unknown
Have to choose one.
- [49:12]
Jason
Us. I think I trade Cat. So this is complicated, but like, do you remember when in. It was like game three or four when Stan Van Gundy dropped that line about how, like, teams run because of their point guard, not because of their coach? Again, I, I don't necessarily think that's true, but I do think there's some truth to it in the sense that, like, I watched, I've watched as a guy who's rooted for LeBron a lot over the years. Like, I've watched LeBron have success with mediocre coaches because of his ability as an on court presence to bring the accountability, to bring the intensity in the, in the experience and all that kind of stuff and even the decision making. I, I feel like trading Cat has a far greater potential to bring back useful players that fit within the identity of this team than getting rid of Tibs and just bringing in some new voice and seeing if that guy can fix all their problems. I think, I do think that. I do think that there needs to be like a sit down with Tibs, though, and emphasize like, like. And I, I would point out the obvious stuff with the lawn right. And in Lander Shammit and be like, hey, like, we have to kind of embrace the times and realize this is a faster, more transition oriented game. We need to go deeper into our bench. All right, guys, that's all we have for tonight on YouTube. We're headed over to playback. Again. That's playback TV slash hoops. Tonight we'll be taking callers and questions and stuff for at least 45 minutes or so. So make sure you guys head over there. We'll see you guys in just a few minutes. And for the YouTube crowd, we will be back on Monday morning with our first bit of NBA Finals preview content. We will see you guys then. What's up guys? As always, I appreciate you for listening to and supporting Hoops tonight. It would actually be really helpful for us if you guys would take a second and leave a like rating and a review. As always, I appreciate you guys supporting us, but if you could take a minute to do that, I'd really appreciate it.
- [51:10]
Colin Cowherd
The volume.
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Jason
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Unknown
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Jason
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Unknown
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Jason
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Colin Cowherd
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Unknown
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Jason
Connected here and there. Dad, the cousins in Mexico have a surprise for you and enjoy the gift of staying connected. Switch and start saving today. Get four Samsung Galaxy S25 phones with Galaxy AI on us and four lines for just 25 bucks per line plus non stop talk, text and data between us and Mexico. Visit a store t mobile.com or call 1-800-T-Mobile- 1-800-T MOBILE.
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Unknown
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Jason
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