← The Herd with Colin Cowherd
The Herd with Colin Cowherd
Hoops Tonight - LIVE: Thunder Dominate Nuggets In Game 7 To Advance To WCF
00:35:33
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Michael Kassin
You're listening to an iHeart podcast.
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Dan Flores
AI is redefining what's possible for your business with more unique challenges to solve and higher stakes than ever, Microsoft helps you stay ahead. Our trustworthy AI tools and guidance can empower leaders like you to drive greater impact. And with Azure's simplified platform management, we're helping businesses go further and faster by unlocking up to 150% improved output. Whatever challenges come next, let Microsoft help you keep pushing forward. For more details, visit Microsoft.com challengers why.
- [01:04]
Greg Lodd
Is a soap opera Western like Yellowstone so wildly successful? The American west with Dan Flores is the latest show from the Meat Eater Podcast Network. So join me starting Tuesday, May 6th where we'll delve into stories of the west and come to understand how it helps inform the ways in which we experience the region today.
- [01:26]
Dan Flores
Listen to the American west with Dan Flores on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.
- [01:33]
Clayton English
I'm Clayton English. I'm Greg Lodd and this is season two of the War on Drugs podcast.
- [01:38]
Dan Flores
Last year a lot of the problems of the drug war. This year, a lot of the biggest names in music and sports.
- [01:45]
Clayton English
This kind of star studded a little bit, man.
- [01:47]
Dan Flores
We met them at their homes, we met them at their recording studios. Stories matter and it brings a face to them.
- [01:53]
Clayton English
It makes it real.
- [01:53]
Dan Flores
It really does. It makes it real.
- [01:56]
Clayton English
Listen to new episodes of the War On Podcast Season 2 on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcast.
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T-Mobile Representative
The volume.
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Dan Flores
The NBA 82 game grind is done and now the real fun begins. The NBA Playoffs are here and it's time for all the high stakes drama, clutch moments and jaw dropping plays. I can't wait if you're looking to make the playoffs Even more exciting, DraftKings sportsbook has you covered as an official sports betting partner of the NBA. From the playing games all the way through to the Finals. Now's the time to back your favorite players and teams as they chase glory. All season long, DraftKings has been the go to spot for NBA player props. And that does not stop now. Want to make your playoff experience even more intense? Try placing a bet on your favorite player's performance. Will they drop 30 points? 40 or more? It's your call. Ready to place your first bet? Download the DraftKings sportsbook app. Now. Lock in your bets. Let's make this playoff run unforgettable. Here's something special for first timers. New DraftKings customers bet $5 to get $200 in bonus bets. Instantly make it a playoff run to remember with DraftKings. Download the DraftKings sportsbook app and use code HOOPS. That's H O O P S. That's code hoops for new customers to get $200 in bonus bets. When you bet just five bucks only on DraftKings, the crown is yours. Gambling problem. Call 1-800-GAMBLER in New York, call 877-8-HOPENY or text HOPENY to 467-369 in Connecticut. Help is available for problem gambling. Call 888-789-7777 or visit ccpg.org Please play responsibly on behalf of Boot Hill Casino and Resort in Kansas. 21 plus. Age and eligibility varies by jurisdiction. Void. In Ontario, new customers only. Bonus bets expire 168 hours after issuance. For additional terms and responsible gaming resources, see DKNG C co Audio. All right, welcome to Hoops Tonight here at the Volume. Happy Sunday, everybody. Hope all of you guys are having a great weekend. Kind of a bummer that our game seven ended up being a dud. I kind of had a suspicion that it would be just simply because as soon as Aaron Gordon was hurt, even if they got out of this series, it just there's very little chance for them to survive two more playoff rounds. And as I always say, like, you gotta have belief if you're a basketball team to overcome great adversity. And it was always gonna be difficult to beat Oklahoma City on the road. And Denver gave it a good, you know, punch there to start, but when they started to lose control of the rope, they just let go. And Oklahoma City ends up blowing em out. One of their interesting defensive adjustments in this game, going to a lot of Alex Crusoe on Nicola Jokic and just fronting the post, that really turned the game around. We're going to break that game down briefly from the perspective of both teams and then we'll talk about Oklahoma City looking forward, and then we'll talk about Denver looking forward. Then we'll take about 10, 15 minutes of mailbag questions before we call it a day. No playback today just because it's a Sunday afternoon, but we'll be back with our usual playback after show starting with Game one of the Western Conference Finals on Tuesday night. So you guys are going to want to go over to Playback TV Slash Hoops tonight to get set up there for our usual after shows that'll be starting back up on Tuesday. You guys know the drill before we get started. Subscribe to the Hoops Tonight YouTube channel so you don't miss any more of our videos. Follow me on twitter@_jasonlt so you guys don't miss show announcements. Don't forget about our podcast feed wherever you get your podcasts under Hoops Tonight. It's also super helpful if you leave a rating and review on that front. Jackson's doing great work on our social media feeds on Twitter, Instagram and Facebook. Make sure you guys follow us there. And last but not least, keep dropping mailbag questions in the chat so that we can get to the mailbag at the tail end of this show. All right, let's talk some basketball. So the start of this game looked very much like the classic experience gap, right? Like the ESPN graphic that's on the screen shows just the number of game sevens both teams have played in and Denver's just been in so many of them. And I think the total number of combined Game seven appearances for OKC was three. And that was Lou Dort Shea and Isaiah Hartenstein if I remember correctly. And like Isaiah Hardenstein, I think that was last year. And then if I'm not mistaken, I think the Dor Shea one, I think that might be the James Harden blocked three in Game seven in the bubble if I remember correctly. But that that's the only Game 7 experience that that group has had, right? And that abundantly was clear. At the start of the game. The Nuggets looked like the far more comfortable and confident team. The Thunder offense looked super tight. Guys were missing layups, guys were missing jumpers. Denver's in control right from there I thought three distinct stretches flipped the game. Stretch number one in the later third of the first quarter, Alex Caruso and Russell Westbrook check into the game. Alex starts denying Nicola Jokic the catch at the high post and just in general using a really good three quarter front slash full front to basically shut off passing angles into Jokic in the post in the high post. From there, none of the Nuggets role players looked like they knew how to make a high post entry. Russell Westbrook had a couple of turnovers. He had a possession where he just said, screw it, I'm going to go to the rim. And he got blocked. Christian Brown ended up finally missing a three. And suddenly that 21 to 10 lead was 26 to 21. Going into the start of the second quarter, just kind of felt like a different game. OKC kind of had some momentum coming out of the end of that first quarter. Then the second pivotal stretch, David Adelman makes the critical mistake of leaving Nikola Jokic and Jamal Murray both off the floor at the same time in Game 7. At the start of the second quarter, the Thunder went on a 6, 0 run, literally in 62 seconds, a minute and two seconds. All of a sudden it's 27 to 26. All of a sudden the Thunder have a lead in a game that the Nuggets controlled for, you know, seven minutes, eight minutes. I think it was actually nine minutes. It was less than the. The total run from 21 to 10 to 27 to 26 took less than five minutes of game clock just completely flipped the game from there. The Nuggets stabilize. Jamal Murray hits a little jumper, puts the Nuggets back within one Mark Dagonal calls a timeout, puts Chet Holmgren back in. And over the final three minutes of the first half, the Thunder close it out on an 18 to 5 run. Kind of an extension of what we saw at the end of the first quarter. Alex Crusoe, but also J Dub during the stretch, doing some great work, battling for position against Nicola Jokic. Denials, poor post entries, forcing turnovers, run out dunks, and it basically ended the game in a three minute stretch there. So if you look at the first half in general, for out of the 24 minutes, two thirds of it, Denver looked completely in control. Methodic half court basket, methodical half court basketball, getting and making better shots. But in these short bursts spanning just eight minutes of game clock, the Thunder just completely dominate the game. And Denver's never able to regain control from there. There's some reality to the difficulty of dealing with ball pressure guards. Any of you guys who have played basketball in our kind of a bigger player, you'll have some experience with this over the years where like a ball pressure guard will just get up in your business and he's swiping at the ball and grabbing and clawing and doing all that stuff. And what you have to do is You've got to create space. And the only way to create space is to use to protect the ball. Clear with your elbow, clear with your shoulder, use your hips, use pivot moves trying to clear out space against a smaller player. And it becomes a very delicate balance because most guards or most guards just naturally get a form of bias from officials because they're smaller. And so they just get to get away with more contact. And if you swing that elbow just right, even though his face is like right here in your personal space, the ref's going to call that an offensive foul. And so I was talking about it on Twitter earlier today. It's like a form of gamesmanship in the same way that foul drawing guards like what Shea does or Jalen Brunson does or Austin Reeves does, in the same way that those guys grift their way to the foul line. On offense, there are defensive players who grift extra possessions by doing that sort of thing. Ball pressure, ball pressure, ball pressure. And what they do is they train themselves. As soon as they get any sort of contact above the shoulders, they just flop back and they're going to get a call. And it, it's just, it's just complicated dealing with ball pressure. And it is. What makes this slender defense so incredibly difficult to deal with is you survive the Dort J Dub phase. And here comes K's on Wallace and Alex Crusoe. They're probably even better at it than the first two guys are. And so it's just wave after wave. Aaron Wiggins gets in on the action too. It's just wave after wave after wave of big, physical guard that's going to get in your business and be aggressive and physical. And the refs aren't going to be able to call every foul. And they do some gamesmanship of their own. And it just a overwhelming wave after wave of force on the defensive end that wears you down. And that's how Oklahoma City won the series. Ultimately, they won this series with their defense. Looking forward for okc, I thought they showed a lot of growth throughout the series. Denver had them on the ropes three different times in games that they ended up winning just because they stuck to their identity and trusted that it would eventually carry them across the finish line. And it literally did. It took longer in game four. It took longer in game five. But eventually they did wear down Denver's offense. Eventually, they couldn't score the ball. Eventually their downhill force did break through the barrier. That was Denver's defense. Alex Crusoe, one year playoff series I don't think you win this series without Alex Crusoe. I thought that was a really interesting thing in retrospect. Looking back at that trade, I hope Chicago's enjoying Josh Giddey, but Alex Crusoe is a veteran role player who came in the only rotation player on this team over the age of 26 and his ability to consistently knock down spot up threes in this series while also being a guy that not only was defending Jamal Murray extremely well at stretches, but was also doing a great job on Nicole Jokic for stretches. You could argue he was the best defender that Denver used on Nicole Jokic in the series. Just unbelievable output from a player that they brought in during the summer. Isaiah Hartenstein by the way too, the job that he did on Jokic, guarding his strong hand. Like the trades made this summer by Sam Presti to bring in Alex Crusoe, the decision to sign Isaiah Hartenstein. They literally gave this team a championship ceiling that would have been cut off at the knees right here in the second round. They would not have beat the Denver Nuggets had they brought last year's team back. So shout out to Sam Presti for those moves. I thought that was a nice bounce back game from J Dub. I thought he just showed him more of a propensity to just attack the rim instead of settle for jump shots early in the clock. He did take a couple jumpers in the first half that he missed, but they were after he was aggressive downhill towards the basket. Just attack the rim and play defense and good things will happen. That's a great way to get yourself out of a slump is just play really hard and focus on the things that don't depend on variance. Looking at the Minnesota series again, I'm not going to have a prediction until tomorrow. I'm working on it first thing in the morning and watch a ton of film. We'll have a a full series preview at some time, probably during the early afternoon tomorrow. But it's a very interesting series. Two elite defenses with elite rim protection and both teams have a legit two big look. Two elite on ball guards against two teams that have a ton of good on ball defense options which should make for a very interesting series in the sense that both Shay and J Dub and Ant and Julius. Everyone should be uncomfortable in this particular matchup, but there are three major differences between the two teams. The Wolves are bigger while the Thunder are faster. I think that's like a kind of they're both very athletic but in different ways. The Wolves I think are substantially more Experienced and ant secondary shot creator is a veteran forward and Julius Randall while Shay's backup shot creator is a younger guard in J Dub. And Julius has been a substantially more reliable offensive player. My initial gut feeling and this might completely change tomorrow after I watch a bunch of tapes. So I'm not saying this is my pick, but my initial like just gut reaction looking at the series is I trust Minnesota's offense to be able to score more over the top in these ugly ass games. These games are all going to be really low scoring and I expect it to be the kind of series where it turns into can Ant make tough shots? Can Julius make tough shots? Can Nas Reed make tough shots? Can Chet Holmgren, J Dub, Shay, Shay, Gil Alexander and I just trust Julius Randall and Chet Holmgren, excuse me, Chet, Julius Randall and Nas Reed just a little bit more than I trust Chet Holmgren and J Dub right now. And so my initial gut reaction is to lean slightly towards Minnesota. But again that might change after I watch the film more intently tomorrow and start putting together that series preview. But again we'll have, I think both series are more or less coin flips. Again I picked Indy and I'm leaning Minnesota, but I think we've got an excellent conference final awaiting us between four pretty evenly matched teams at least respectively in their matchups. And, and I, I'm hopeful that for the first time since 2022 we get a good conference final because we've had a couple of brutal ones in a row. Denver, they had their chances, man. Up eight in game four in the fourth quarter, up nine in game five in the fourth quarter. They'll be kicking themselves for a little while for this one. I think Yokich will be kicking himself for game four cause that was the last game out of a three game stretch where he couldn't make a shot and if he would have been able to make more shots, his team would have won that game. I think Jamal Murray will be kicking himself for game five because he was so good for the first three quarters and he just went cold in that fourth quarter. But overall I was impressed by Denver's championship pedigree and their overall ability to make this into a very competitive series. I want to shout out Aaron Gordon. I couldn't believe he was going to play and as he was running around I couldn't believe he was playing. And there was a certain amount of like, like they, they tried to keep him on heart and sign a little bit more so he's less defending in action. He's doing a lot of switching off of every little screen, not really throwing a lot of effort in transition or in closeouts, but obviously he couldn't move. But he, I thought he was like positive impact on a, on a grade 2 hamstring strain and it just is insane. And like I, you know, when I think about Aaron Gordon, obviously I'm a little biased because I'm a University of Arizona fan, but this last three years for him in the postseason, I think he's been one of the better, more reliable, more versatile role players that I've seen. And to me he's just a champion and a legend and someone that I've got a great deal of respect for. And he's got a long career ahead of him. And I think that's a perfect springboard to this next conversation, which is I want to start this point of view from a very basic kind of like position that I hold, which is I do think like without a doubt that Jamal Murray, Christian Brown, Aaron Gordon and Nicole Jokic is a championship core. I think those four guys can absolutely start at those respective four positions and win the championship. They just badly need to upgrade that Michael Porter Jr. Slot that was a problem throughout this postseason. Whether it was them not being able to trust mpj, not being able to trust Russ, not being able to trust Peyton Watson, they just didn't have a reliable fifth guy. Michael Porter Jr. Is going to be a difficult player to trade, but he is the kind of player that I'd be looking to move this off season for a defensive minded wing. You because of Aaron Gordon's development as a shooter. Christian Brown again over the tail end of the series, got his jump shot figured out. I and also Aaron Gordon and Christian Brown are two examples of defensive minded players that have become better shooters. I think those dudes will probably get with whatever defensive minded wing you get and friendly bully him into becoming a better shooter. Like I would just be looking for someone in that mold of the Herb Jones, Jaden McDaniels type of player. Obviously you're not going to be able to get Jaden, but I would be looking for that type of big, rangy wing athlete that can basically fill in the baseline spacer role off of Jokic as a cutter now that Gordon and Brown can shoot the ball as well as they do and that raises your defensive ceiling and your overall athleticism substantially, which I think would be an upgrade. And then the last thing I'll say about it, just Jamal's conditioning, I think, I think he needs to come into camp ready to go and maximize himself to the point where he's a more reliably good player in these situations. Jamal was bad tonight, but he was fantastic in game six and he was really good in game five until he wasn't. And so I think there's a clear shot making ceiling there with him that he will reach more consistently if he just becomes the kind of player that maximizes what he can get out of his body over the course of a season. And so I, I think there's just, I think it's about maximizing what you have on board, making an upgrade to that fifth starter spot at the small forward position. I think there's a real opportunity there for Denver to pivot and not have to ditch their continuity. Like I was talking to Colin today and Colin's like, well, do you think they should trade Jamal Murray? No, I don't. I to me, Jamal Murray's continuity with Jokic in the two man game is of substantial value and you could get a player who on paper is better than Jamal, but it's not as good within this particular team in this fit. And so I think, I think it's, I think you bet on continuity and you just upgrade that fifth starter spot. Go from there. You've got enough young talent with, you know, Jalen Pickett and, and Peyton Watson off the bench. Julian Strother had his moments in this series. They've got, they've got their opportunity to, to get more talent out of their, out of their young players in the big picture. I think they just got to upgrade that fifth starter spot.
- [20:36]
Michael Kassin
Blending Vice's signature dynamic storytelling with the.
- [20:40]
Greg Lodd
High octane world of sports, Vice Sports brings an exciting and diverse range of programming that goes beyond the game. From action packed live events to gripping.
- [20:48]
Michael Kassin
Behind the scenes documentaries to hard hitting.
- [20:50]
Greg Lodd
Investigative pieces and in depth profiles of.
- [20:53]
Michael Kassin
Athletes, coaches, teams, Vice Sports captures the.
- [20:57]
Dan Flores
Raw energy, drama and passion that makes sports truly unforgettable. Catch live events and other exclusive sports.
- [21:03]
Greg Lodd
Programs Only on Vice TV.
- [21:05]
Michael Kassin
Go to Vicetv.com to find your cable channel.
- [21:10]
T-Mobile Representative
T Mobile's stats are as impressive as your favorite athlete's highlight reel because T Mobile helps keep you connected from the heart of Portland to right where you are on America's largest 5G network. Switch now keep your phone and T Mobile will pay it off up to $800 per line via prepaid card. Visit your local T Mobile location or learn more@t mobile.com KeepAndSwitch up to 4 lines via virtual prepaid card. Allow 15 days qualified unlock device credit service report in 90 days device, knowledgeable carrier and timely redemption required card is no cash access and expires in six.
- [21:41]
Greg Lodd
The American west with Dan Flores is the latest show from the Meat Eater Podcast Network. Hosted by me, writer and historian Dan Flores and brought to you by Velvet Buck, this podcast looks at a West available nowhere else. Each episode I'll be diving into some of the lesser known histories of the West. I'll then be joined in conversation by guests such as Western historian Dr. Randall Williams and best selling author and Meat Eater founder Stephen Rinella.
- [22:11]
Clayton English
I'll correct my kids now and then they'll say when cave people were here.
- [22:15]
Dan Flores
And I'll say it seems like the.
- [22:16]
Greg Lodd
Ice Age people that were here didn't.
- [22:18]
Dan Flores
Have a real affinity for caves.
- [22:21]
Greg Lodd
So join me starting Tuesday, May 6th where we'll delve into stories of the west and come to understand how it helps inform the ways in which we experience the region today.
- [22:32]
Dan Flores
Listen to the American west with Dan Flores on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. In 1978, Roger Caron's first book was.
- [22:44]
Michael Kassin
Published and he was unlike any first.
- [22:46]
Dan Flores
Time author Canada had ever seen. Roger Caron was 16 when first convicted.
- [22:51]
Michael Kassin
Has spent 24 of those years in.
- [22:54]
Dan Flores
Jail, 12 years in solitary. He went from an ex con to a literary darling almost overnight.
- [23:00]
Greg Lodd
He was instantly a celebrity, he was an adrenaline junkie and he was the.
- [23:06]
Michael Kassin
Star of the show.
- [23:08]
Dan Flores
Go Boy is the gritty true story of how one man fought his way out of some of the darkest places imaginable.
- [23:14]
Greg Lodd
I had a knife go in my.
- [23:16]
Dan Flores
Stomach, puncture my spleen, break my ribs. I had my guts all in my hands only to find himself back, back where he started. Roger's saying is I've never hurt anybody but myself. And I said, oh, you're so wrong. You're so wrong on that one. Rod from Campside Media and iHeart Podcasts. Listen to GoBoy on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.
- [23:43]
Clayton English
I'm Clayton English. I'm Greg Lodd and this is season two of the War on Drugs podcast. Sir, we are back in a big way.
- [23:50]
Dan Flores
In a very big way. Real people, real perspectives.
- [23:53]
Clayton English
This is kind of star studded a little bit, man. We got Ricky Williams, NFL player, Heisman Trophy winner.
- [23:59]
Dan Flores
It's just the compassionate choice to allow players all reasonable means to care for themselves. Music stars Marcus King, John Osborne from Brothers Osborne. We have this misunderstanding of what this quote unquote drug thing is. Benny the Butcher, Brent Smith from Shinedown.
- [24:16]
Clayton English
Got be real from Cypress Hill NHL enforcer Riley Cote, Marine Corvette MMA fighter Liz Karamouche.
- [24:24]
Dan Flores
What we're doing now isn't working and we need to change things. Stories matter and it brings a face to them.
- [24:29]
Clayton English
It makes it real.
- [24:30]
Dan Flores
It really does. It makes it real.
- [24:32]
Clayton English
Listen to new episodes of the War on Drugs Podcast Season 2 on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast and to hear episodes one week early and ad free with exclusive, exclusive content. Subscribe to Lava for Good plus on Apple Podcast.
- [24:54]
Dan Flores
All right, let's bring Jackson on and take some questions.
- [24:58]
Michael Kassin
Let's do it. Let's do it. Just sort of sticking on this Denver point for a second. Do you think Denver's issues have more to do with the small forward position or a lack of depth?
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Dan Flores
So I, I think, like, there's a certain amount of depth that will come naturally through the development of their young players. Like, I don't think the issue is having Peyton Watson and Julian Strother as your, you know, even Russell Westbrook, in this case as your 6, 7, 8. It's just not having a 5. They just didn't have a 5. Like, I feel like this, I feel like if the Nuggets got reliable play out of Michael Porter Jr. In this series, they win. I just think they do. So, like, I think, I think that is a more achievable goal. Looking at it through the lens of one piece and then understanding like there's going to be year over year improvement with your young talent. That's. Those guys are going to have their opportunities next year to get plenty of playtime. It's just, you got to have five guys that you trust in a big spot.
- [25:58]
Michael Kassin
Yeah, they, they didn't, they definitely didn't have five guys they trusted in this series. That's for sure. That is for sure.
- [26:04]
Dan Flores
Do you agree with me that the top four, though, are good?
- [26:07]
Michael Kassin
I do. I do. I feel like the, the relationship and the continuity you're describing with Jamal and Jokic feels very of the Steph and Draymond conversation to me, where it's like, yeah, there might be a better player than Draymond Green to pair with Steph Curry. Yeah, there might be a better player to pair with Jokers and Jamal Murray, but the chemistry they have on the court takes a long, long time to develop. And you're not. Most teams aren't winning a championship without some level of the sum is greater than the parts. Even when those parts are amazing, you need the sum to be greater and that's where that, that chemistry, I think, is really, really, really valuable.
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Dan Flores
That's a great point. Like, we talk about this literally all the time. Your value in a vacuum doesn't matter everything, Val. The only value that matters is your value on that basketball team. And the Draymond Steph partnership supersedes any potential partnership of Steph with another big that doesn't have that, like, seamless synergy that you get out of those two. Like, even with Anthony Davis, like, if you had to, like, because I remember we had that warriors fan, it was like, well, what if we can get ad? Like, if. Let's say you had to use Draymond as salary filler in the AD trade. There's obviously massive up upside with ad, but one of the downsides would be AD is not as good of a processor and short role player as Draymond is. And so even though AD's greatness would supersede and I've. I'm sure the warriors would be better with AD because he's the type of superstar player, but the point is, is it's more complicated. It's not just as simple as attaching an in a vacuum talent like Steph because he brings two to the ball 25ft from the basket. Processing is like one of the most valuable skills for a player playing alongside of him. And that's one of the things that draymond brings.
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Michael Kassin
Yeah, 100%. It's like. And there's obviously exceptions to that. Like, if you put Giannis with Steph Curry. Yes. That's just enough of a talent gap where it's worth it. And if you put Steph Curry with Nicola Jokic, it's enough of a talent gap to replace Jamal Murray. But you're not. It's. It's going to be challenging to have a enough of a talent gap to replace that chemistry that we're sort of describing, I think.
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Dan Flores
Exactly. Exactly.
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Michael Kassin
Next question. Jason, what kind of defense do you think Mini will play against okc? Will they throw a lot of zone out there? Okd? OKC did have some trouble with the zone earlier in the series before they sort of figured it out a little bit.
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Dan Flores
I think we'll see some zone, but I think this is going to be a man to man series for both teams. I think it's going to be a ball pressure load up the strong side, force you to move the ball and shoot against a hard closeout type of game. Like, I think. I think we could see extended ugly stretches, like extended ugly stretches from both Shay and Ant in this series. Like both of these defenses are perfectly designed to deal with each other. Like it's like a it's a real problem for both teams and the like for for as fast as OKC is they're going to be dealing with Minnesota's length and there's a certain amount of like Shay's an over the top jump shooter who's going to be shooting against length but like at the same time Ant superpower is his quickness and his ability to beat people off the dribble with speed and and there's just a lot of athletes that are going to be standing right in his way throughout this entire series. And so I think it's going to be very much a tough shot making for the stars kind of series and a catch and shoot three for mediocre role players type of series out of main to man sequences. And I think I wouldn't be surprised if we had multiple games in this series where neither team gets to 100.
- [29:26]
Michael Kassin
Yeah it does feel like both teams have unique defensive options to throw against the other team's best player being able to have Dort, Caruso, Kayson, Wallace to throw at Anthony Edwards and to have Anthony Edwards and Jaden McDaniels to throw.
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Dan Flores
At Shay and Nikhil's a great one.
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Michael Kassin
Fit and Nikhil they got both teams have a lot of athletic defenders. Dante super quick. Yeah they can throw and they all have different sort of strengths and types of defenders. They could mix up the looks that I think is you know, valuable as well. How would Next question. How would you rank the last four teams in terms of championship odds?
- [30:01]
Dan Flores
This is a really good question. I think Oklahoma City should be a substantial favorite over both Indiana and New York. Minnesota, I would make a smaller favorite over Indiana and New York but I think I'd make them favored. But I think that Minnesota OKC could go either way if that makes sense. So like strictly speaking the matchups I view Minnesota OKC as a coin flip but going forward into the finals I view Minnesota as more susceptible to a loss to Indiana or New York than I view okc. I think OKC would dispatch of the Knicks and the Pacers pretty quickly. They're it's just a nightmare matchup for both of them to have to deal with all that guard speed on the ball. So with that being the case I'm going to go I would rank the Thunder small gap Timberwolves big gap Pacers small gap Knicks is how I'll put it.
- [31:03]
Michael Kassin
I think I agree and DraftKings does not DraftKings has. I mean, they agree with part of it. They have okc as the heavy favorite, minus 165. And then I think probably just because you can only get one of the two Western Conference teams in the Finals, that from an odds perspective, they have an Eastern Conference team next. The Knicks at plus.
- [31:19]
Dan Flores
Oh, that makes sense. Yeah.
- [31:21]
Michael Kassin
Yeah. And then The Timberwolves are plus 550 and the Pacers are plus 700.
- [31:26]
Dan Flores
So, you know what's interesting about that, though, is I think it's. I think it's substantially more likely that Minnesota sneaks through OKC and beats who comes out of the east than either of the east teams beating okc.
- [31:39]
Michael Kassin
Yeah, I do too.
- [31:41]
Dan Flores
Yeah. Like, it's just. Can you imagine Halliburton and Brunson and Nemhard, like, just dealing with the incessant wave of Kayson Wallace and Alex Caruso and Lou Dord and. Yeah, like, it just. I think it would just be too much for him. Like, I view the Western Conference finals as basically the NBA Finals.
- [32:00]
Michael Kassin
Yeah. I tend to agree. And this is not to take shots at Tyrese Halliburton or Jalen Brunson, because those guys deal with a lot of good, athletic defenders all the time. But you saw it for stretches in.
- [32:11]
Dan Flores
Game.
- [32:13]
Michael Kassin
5 of the Knicks Celtic series where when Jalen Brown is like, I'm going to turn into a defensive like, demon right now, that caused some problems for Jalen Brunson. And I mean, they obviously won the series. It's not anything like that. But if you got three different guys, you can. Are always going to be fresh. Ish. To throw at Jalen Brunson or Tyrese Halliburton. It's. It would be a challenge, I think, against.
- [32:33]
Dan Flores
Okay. A simple statistic to kind of break this down. Denver in the regular season with Nicole Jokic on the floor had a 126 offensive rating. Okay. For Denver versus OKC in this round, they had a 104 offensive rating with Yokich on the floor. So OKC was literally able to cut Denver's regular season offense production by 20, 22 points per 100 possessions. That's crazy. Like, they are.
- [33:10]
Michael Kassin
It's crazy.
- [33:11]
Dan Flores
They are. You know, like, I saw our friend and colleague Carson Breber talking about them as an all time great defense. And I'm always hesitant to throw that phrase out until we, like, get there. But, like, if. If they're gonna get there, this is what it would look like. Like, they're certainly in the process. It's kind of like it reminds Me of like, watching Jokic in 2020 and 2021, where you're like, this guy might be the best. You know this. Yeah, yeah, this might be this. This defense from OKC looks. Looks like one of those special defenses in NBA history that can really cause problems for teams. And the reason why Denver had extended stretches of success against OKC is they had this big mammoth human that could just run, like some of Yokich's drop step buckets through double teams today. Did you see some of those today where he's just like. He just spins into traffic and just goes through like three dudes and lays it, lays it up. The. The Knicks and the Pacers just don't have that option against this Thunder team. And I just think. I think they'd be in some real trouble.
- [34:09]
Michael Kassin
Yeah, it's sort of like we talked a lot about Anthony Edwards sort of being this, like, king, King slayer. He's taken out all these, you know, all time greats on his way to. On this playoff run. If the Thunder end up winning the title, you know, the first round is whatever. But being able to say, we put the clamps on Jokic, we put the clamps on a Timberwolves team that just kind of shredded a great Golden. Not shredded, but, like, had a lot of success against a good, very, very good warriors defense.
- [34:33]
Dan Flores
Yep.
- [34:34]
Michael Kassin
And then we put the clamps on Jalen Brunson or Tyrese Halliburton's whirlwind Pacers. Like, that would be a pretty impressive defensive finals run, I think.
- [34:42]
Dan Flores
I agree. And I think you're hitting on another interesting thing, which is that I think Golden State was a really good tune up for Minnesota to prepare for okc. Can you imagine if Minnesota had gone straight from the Lakers to okc, that, like, I would have probably picked OKC in a heartbeat. But getting that Golden State matchup is like, here's a real fast, smart defense that. That'll throw you for a loop. The difference is, is you'll be facing real rim protection in this round.
- [35:08]
Michael Kassin
Yeah. All right, let's do one more sort of kind of abstract, crazy question, and then we can wrap up for the day.
- [35:13]
Dan Flores
Okay.
- [35:14]
Michael Kassin
Love the show. What do you think of this trade? This is a. This is a. This is a block.
- [35:18]
Dan Flores
A doozy.
- [35:19]
Michael Kassin
A doozy. A doozy. The LA Lakers get Jared Allen, DeAndre Hunter, Isaac Okoro, and Dean Wade. And Cleveland gets LeBron James.
- [35:30]
Dan Flores
Okay, read me the names one more time. Jared Allen.
- [35:32]
Michael Kassin
Jared Allen, DeAndre Hunter, DeAndre Decoro Hunter and Dean Wade. And apparently this does work from for the Money, according to the commenter.
- [35:40]
Dan Flores
Okay, let me, let me conceptualize this for just a second. So in this universe, the Cavs would then run out Garland and Mitchell, Mitchell with Streuss at the 3, with LeBron and Mobley, and they would lose the depth of DeAndre Hunter and Dean Wade and the Lakers would get. So it'd be Austin. A Cora would be there too, I suppose.
- [36:09]
Michael Kassin
Well, it's Luca Austin and DeAndre Hunter, I think.
- [36:12]
Dan Flores
Yeah, you're right. Luca Austin and Hunter would, so it'd be Hunter and Rui would be the three.
- [36:16]
Michael Kassin
Hunter and Rui and then Jared Allen.
- [36:18]
Dan Flores
Yeah. And then Allen at the center. And then, and then, I mean it's.
- [36:24]
Michael Kassin
It'S not the worst.
- [36:25]
Dan Flores
It's an interesting.
- [36:26]
Michael Kassin
Stay competitive, but not, but not punt on anything long term. You're like, Hunter Allen are still like in there rising into their prime, if not in their prime. They're not old by any means.
- [36:37]
Dan Flores
They're also, yeah, to your point, they're also players that like specifically struggled in the postseason and that Cleveland fans are probably like, I'll drive you to the airport anyway, right.
- [36:47]
Michael Kassin
And sort of like both teams being like, damn, I don't really want to trade these guys.
- [36:50]
Dan Flores
Don't.
- [36:51]
Michael Kassin
I never said I want to trade these guys, but if you're asking for them, I'll, I'll, I'll listen to a phone call.
- [36:56]
Dan Flores
So, so, so Cleveland basically gets to use LeBron as like a one year rental. Slash. They can drop his money off the books eventually.
- [37:06]
Michael Kassin
Right? They're, they're like, they're, they might have to do a total vibe shift if they, if they run it back and lose again in the second round, for example, next year.
- [37:15]
Dan Flores
And I think we came out of that series looking pretty clearly like, yeah, Mitchell and Mobley are their two guys. Garland's a big question still, man, that's a really interesting trade. I, that's, that's something that I would, I like if, if LeBron was dead serious about being willing to go back to Cleveland. It'd be an interesting trade to explore and look at some different machinations in the sense that like, yeah, I, I, the one, the one other thing though is I wonder if Cleveland's going to look to potentially trade Garland at some point. If, like, how many times are they going to, is Garland going to be basically useless in the postseason before that they, before they look to go a different direction there. But that could be an entirely separate deal. This is interesting. I'm not going to say that I would do it because I think the Lakers. Here's my issue. If I'm the Lakers. DeAndre Hunting, DeAndre Hunter and Rui are both redundant. They're big forwards that struggle to defend on the perimeter, that are good catch and shoot players, that can put the ball on the floor and attack closeout, that can attack a mismatch. They're. But they're both better at four than they are at the three, in my opinion. Jared Allen is not quite the vertical spacer that Luca typically likes to play with, but he is a very good, like short, like a short range spacer, meaning like floaters and push shots and stuff like that. He's a switchable big that I think, which I think obviously JJ Redick would like and Isaac Okoro is a real athleticism upgrade. But after all of them just struggled in the postseason, I think you'd have a hard time giving up LeBron for him. It's an interesting idea, though. I'm not going to say I would do it or not, but that is a. Is an interesting idea. And like, if LeBron, if LeBron decides that he wants to go back to Cleveland, there are certainly some avenues there to make that into, into an interesting trade. What, what? Do you have any big picture thought on it?
- [39:12]
Michael Kassin
I mean, it's just, it's kind of hard to, to wrap your head around, but I do feel, I do feel like it kind of. It. It's. Both teams are in a sort of. We don't feel like we have the roster. Clearly to be contenders, there has to be some kind of shakeup, it feels like, for both teams. But it's hard to part ways with any of the guys that you would need to. To make a trade. Like, if you're, if you're a Cavaliers fan, I think it's tough to be like, run it back. Just exact same roster, run it back. But also like, who do we really feel confident about trading?
- [39:42]
Dan Flores
The Jared Allen piece is the complicated one to me because you trade him, you instantly become a dramatically worse regular season team. But this is. He's been, he's gotten his ass kicked in the postseason multiple times in the last couple years. So like, like Mitchell Robinson ate him alive a couple years ago. He got demolished by Miles Turner in this round. Like, there's a. It's just really hard to sell your fan base on the idea. Like, hey, you guys, did you like that when we won 64 games? Well, without Jarrett, we're going to get 51, 52 wins. How does that sound to you guys? You know, but then the way you. Because like especially with LeBron, like LeBron's not going to be some super impactful regular season player, but I would argue that Garland, Mitchell, Stru, LeBron and Mobley have a much better chance to win in the postseason than, than that version does. And so it's, it's, it's, it's definitely worth exploring. All right, guys, that's all we have for today. As always, we sincerely appreciate you guys for supporting us and supporting the show. As I said, we will be going tomorrow early afternoon ish with our series preview on the Timberwolves and the Thunder. Very much looking forward to digging into that tomorrow. No playback today, but we'll get back to our normal playback after shows on Tuesday. Again, that's Playback TV slash Hoops tonight for you guys to get set up there. Again, we appreciate you guys for rocking with us and we'll see you tomorrow. What's up guys? As always, I appreciate you for listening to and supporting Hoops tonight. It would actually be really helpful for us if you guys would take a second and leave a really rating and a review. As always, I appreciate you guys supporting us, but if you could take a minute to do that, I'd really appreciate it.
- [41:17]
T-Mobile Representative
The volume.
- [41:21]
Dan Flores
AI is redefining what's possible for your business. With more unique challenges to solve and higher stakes than ever, Microsoft helps you stay ahead. Our trustworthy AI tools and guidance can empower leaders like you to drive greater impact. And with Azure's simplified platform management, we're helping businesses go further and faster by unlocking up to 150% improved output. Whatever challenges come next, let Microsoft help you keep pushing forward. For more details, visit Microsoft.com challengers why.
- [41:50]
Greg Lodd
Is a soap opera Western like Yellowstone so wildly successful? The American west with Dan Flores is the latest show from the Meat Eater Podcast Network. So join me starting Tuesday, May 6, where we'll delve into stories of the west and come to understand how how it helps inform the ways in which we experience the region today.
- [42:12]
Dan Flores
Listen to the American west with Dan Flores on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.
- [42:19]
Clayton English
I'm Clayton English. I'm Greg Lodd and this is season two of the War on Drugs podcast.
- [42:24]
Dan Flores
Last year, a lot of the problems of the drug war. This year, a lot of the biggest names in music and sports.
- [42:30]
Clayton English
This is kind of star studded a little bit, man.
- [42:33]
Dan Flores
We met them at their homes, we met them at their recording studios. Stories matter and it brings a face to them.
- [42:38]
Clayton English
It makes it real.
- [42:39]
Dan Flores
It really does. It makes it real.
- [42:41]
Clayton English
Listen to new episodes of the War on Drugs Podcast Season 2 on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast.
- [42:49]
Michael Kassin
I'm Michael Kassin, founder and CEO of.
- [42:51]
Dan Flores
3C Ventures and your guide on Good.
- [42:53]
Michael Kassin
Company, the podcast where I sit down with the boldest innovators shaping what's next.
- [42:58]
Dan Flores
In this episode, I'm joined by Angeli Sud, CEO of Tubi.
- [43:02]
Michael Kassin
We dive into the competitive world of Stream.
- [43:05]
Dan Flores
What others dismiss as niche, we embrace as core. There's so many stories out there, and.
- [43:10]
Michael Kassin
If you can find a way to curate and help the right person discover the right content. The term that we always hear from.
- [43:18]
Dan Flores
Our audience is that they feel seen.
- [43:20]
Michael Kassin
Listen to Good company on the iHeartRadio.
- [43:22]
Dan Flores
App, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast.
- [43:31]
Michael Kassin
You're listening to an iHeart podcast.