← The Herd with Colin Cowherd
The Herd with Colin Cowherd
Hoops Tonight - LIVE: Thunder Take 3-2 Lead on Nuggets + Pacers Eliminate Cavs
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Podcast Host
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Basketball Analyst
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Another fantastic game from this OKC Denver series that has given us plenty of great basketball here in the second round and the Pacers close out the Cleveland Cleveland Cavaliers earlier today. We're going to be breaking down both of those games from the perspective of both teams and then we'll take about 10 to 15 minutes of questions at the tail end of the show. When we are done here tonight, we'll be heading over to Playback again. That's Playback TV Slash Hoops Tonight where we'll be taking questions, taking callers, hanging out, watching some film, just having some fun, talking hoops for an extra 45 minutes to an hour or so after we finish here live on YouTube. You guys know the drill before we get started. Subscribe to the Hoops Tonight YouTube channel so you don't miss any more of our videos. Follow me on twitter@_jasonlt so you guys don't miss show announcements. Don't forget about our podcast feed wherever you get your podcasts in our Hoops Tonight. It's also super helpful if you leave a rating in a review. On that front, Jackson's Doing great work on our social media feeds, Twitter, Instagram, Facebook. Make sure you guys follow us there. And last but not least, keep dropping mailbag questions in the chat so we can get to them in our questions at the tail end of the show. All right, let's talk some basketball. So you know, there's been a pretty consistent theme over the last couple of games. The Thunder stars have actually struggled to create quality shots for the most part over the course of the last two games. But in both games they've been able to make plays late. Those of you guys who hung out with us on playback on Sunday night or Sunday afternoon, we went over some of that footage and you'll see that a couple of big driving buckets from Shea and from J Dub. A big right shoulder fade from Shea out of a that 5 second call they forced on the baseline. And so even though those guys struggled in large part, they were able to make big plays late to put the game away. Similarly tonight, same sort of thing, J Dub and Shay both struggling throughout the game. J Dub hits a huge three on a kickout off of a double team, kind of like swing, swing sequence where he gets a wide open three on the left wing. He had just air mailed one from the, from the right wing a few possessions earlier and just confidently steps in and knocks down the big one late. Shea, that huge driving spin move bucket the and one on Jamal Murray around the left elbow. The step back three over Christian Brown in the left wing, the driving lobbed Isaiah Hartenstein. The plays were made late to put the game away. But the question is how is it that they were in a position with their stars not playing very well to win a game like that down the stretch against a Denver Nuggets offense that is one of the greatest offenses that we've seen in recent NBA history. I was going over with Jackson the, the, the numbers from the series. The Nuggets only get 105 points tonight despite the fact that Jokic goes for 44, that they get 62 out of Yic and Murray in the game, the Nuggets only got 87 in game four. They only got 8, 104 in game three. They only got 106 in game two. Since that game one explosion where they went for one hundred and twenty one points, they haven't been able to have any sort of sustained offensive success. And that's because the real star of the Oklahoma City Thunder is their defense. Their defense keeps them in these games long enough for their younger stars to work through their lumps and to find the ability to make a few plays late. It buys them all of this margin for error. And even though they lost control of Jokic tonight, they've had a great deal of success with him in this series by overplaying his right hand with Isaiah Hartenstein, which is forcing Jokic into some really difficult finishing positions where he's missing shots that he usually makes. You know, they're posting Chet on the backside to help anytime Jokic goes towards the rim. They're doubling him on the baseline side. Every single time he tries to post up. He's. They've had extended success against Denver's defense and in. Against Denver's offense and in tonight's game, even though Jokic had it going, they got control of Jamal Murray late, and no one else on the roster was able to do any sort of substantial damage to them in this game. Their defense, through the incessant pressure and wearing you down and getting you to miss shots like Michael Porter Jr. Is over 14 from 3 in the last three games. You want to know why he's over 14 from 3 in the last 3 games? It's because his legs are cooked. His legs are cooked from contending with this team. Yes, the shoulder injury plays a role, but his right hand, he can follow through and shoot this shot. He can't even get it over the front of the rim, as his last two threes were pitifully short. Most of them have been pitifully short. They're wearing them down. Jamal Murray misses another wide open three out of the right corner late in the game. There is a cumulative physical wear and tear factor, and they've been able to walk Denver down at the tail end of these games. Denver was up 2:1 in the series, led by eight in the fourth quarter of gain four, led by nine in the fourth quarter of game five. And Oklahoma City is up 3:2 in this series. And it's because their defense has managed to keep things close and because their stars have been able to make plays late in the game, even though they've struggled in the meat and potatoes of the game. Obviously, a huge part in this was Lou Dart. Lou Dort. Excuse me, kind of getting out of his shooting slump in a big way in that fourth quarter. Nicole Jokic has basically been conceding shots to him whenever he can. And to Dort's credit, he just kept taking them to the point where I'm sure there were some Oklahoma City fans while he was taking them that weren't necessarily thrilled with the shots, but they went in. He had his moment ran back to the, to the bench screaming that I'm back and he is. Cause he needed, they needed every single one of those buckets. That's what he raced, that lead. That forced it into a crunch time shot making contest. And Yich was there. Jokic went blow for blow with them, hit one of those absurd somber shuffle shots at the top of the key. That was one of the crazier shots I've seen Yic hit in his career. Especially when you factor in time in place. I've seen him or time and score, I should say I've seen him hit that shot before. But like usually like just at the end of the quarter, at the end of the shot clock for him to tie the game with less than two minutes left with one of those against a great contest at the top of the key. You overcame a incredible Jokic performance that was every bit as good as the one that we saw in game one of this series. And now the Thunder up three, two and you know what happens next is going to be interesting because I talked after game four that like I thought Denver blew their chance to win the series. Their offense was in such a, they were so down in the mud that I didn't see anything that they had going for them that would manifest in the ability to win on the road in Oklahoma City, which would make it very difficult for them to win this series. Right. Well, there's some encouraging stuff out of that. So in a weird way, I came out of game four thinking this series is over. Oklahoma City's going to get it. Now. I still feel like Denver's got a legitimate chance. Jokic has regained his mojo after three straight awful games by his standards and has gotten back to having the touch on the three point shot, having the touch on the short range shot making, having the kind of just like aura and presence that he brings down the stretch of these games. That is bad. Jamal Murray had his highest volume scoring game of the series, although not necessarily the most efficient one he had. He took 27 shots tonight. But Jamal Murray started to get some things going. There are some things that Denver has going in terms of their two man game now that gives them a puncher's chance. I think they have a legitimate chance to go home and win game six. And then after what we've seen tonight, we would all be foolish to count out Nicole Yokich in a game seven on the road in Oklahoma City. That said, I picked Oklahoma City in seven before the series. This series is kind of manifested with some of those things in terms of the way Denver has been able to bog down Oklahoma City's defense or offense, excuse me, and Jokic has been able to make plays late in games to steal games, but I still think Oklahoma City is going to end up closing this thing out in seven is my best guess at this point in time.
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Basketball Analyst
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All right, we're going to talk a little Pacers caps and then we'll get into our mailbag for a little bit before we get out of here and head over to playback. So Pacers caps the Cavs jumped up to a 19 point lead early in the second quarter. Donovan Mitchell and Evan Mobley combined for 23 points in the first quarter. They defended well. It looked kind of similar to what happened in Game four where the home team is just kind of taking control immediately out the gates. I was complaining to Jackson because I I hate playoff series where the teams just trade off blowouts. It's like somebody just take a stand and try to win a game after taking a little bit of a run early. And that was what the Pacers did. Because if you guys remember in game four, the Pacers slammed the door shut with a 17.0run right before the half that put the game completely out of reach. And all of a sudden the Cavs were in no position to even amount even the semblance of a comeback. I mean they outscored The Pacers by 21 in the second half and still lost by 20, right? But the Cavs were unable to make a similar type of run tonight. In fact, the Pacers made a big second quarter run that regained a presence in the game that they then rode to a big lead in the second half. Every time the Cavs made a run, Tyrese Halliburton had a response. He's the guy who ignited the run right before the half that brought the game back within reach. He hit an assortment of pull up threes versus different pick and roll coverages. He hit one over Jared Allen in a switch. He hit one over Jared Allen and a drop coverage from way out. Damn Nearby. The logo just caught a Heater there shooting the ball that brought them back into the game. And then the Cavs did end up making another run in the fourth quarter that cut the lead down to one off of a couple of back to back threes from Donovan Mitchell. And Tyrese Halberton slammed the door shut on that, too. He ran a simple pick and pop off of a big offensive rebound for Miles Turner and hit Andrew Nemhardt on the left wing, who hit a three. Ty Jerome goes down and decides it's his time, even though it hasn't been his time in that entire series. So I'm not sure what he was thinking, but ran in there and tried to take some floater and Tyrese Halliburton just beautiful rear view contest, swatted it from behind, got the rebound, went down the other way and got an and one and basically ended the series and ended the Cleveland Cavaliers. Now here's the thing, Tyrese, he may not have had the statistical impact in this series that Donovan Mitchell had, but I thought he dominated every pivotal stretch of the series. He goes for 22 points and 13 assists and a wire to wire. Pacers just kind of like just demonstrate to everybody what makes them so good in game one. Then he hits the game winner and two driving layups in crunch time of game two. Then he goes for 31, 6 and 8 tonight. Dominates every p pivotal stretch of this closeout game five. Hal's just having a very special playoff run and I'm really, really excited to see what it looks like in that next round. I want to shout out a couple other Pacers before we look forward. Miles Turner. I thought he whooped Jared Allen's ass in this series on both ends of the floor. Scored in double figures every game. Caused all sorts of problems for him on the roll where he was missing some shots that he usually makes. Killed him on the glass. Had that critical offensive rebound again tonight. After that miss, Jared Allen boxes him out. It's a one point game. Cavs get a rebound and go down and score. We might be heading to Indiana for Game 6, but he just throws Jared Allen out of the way like a rag doll. Gets the offensive rebound. Swing, swing. Next thing you know, it's that Tyrese Halliburton, Andrew Nemhardt two band game that ends in the three that puts him back up by four. He their play, his play. Finishing the pick and pop threes, the short roll, jump shots around the elbow, beating switches. In this postseason run, he's shot out of the post on 17 different possessions and he scored 19 points. As a shooter. So he's routinely been a high value option for them every single time he catches a guard in a switch and ball screens and he's been excellent. Siakam was consistently good in the series, but put up his two biggest scoring games to close the deal. Andrew or Aaron Neesmith couldn't make a three tonight, but he had a lot of really high level scoring moves in the mid range. Andrew Nemhard again doing the job on both ends of the floor, hitting that huge shot late. They're just, the Pacers are just hitting their peak on both ends of the floor at the perfect time. I thought their defense was excellent again tonight. They held the Cavs to 74 points over the final three quarters of this game. Even Halliburton, I thought was good on defense, getting deflections in his hedge and recovers with high hands. The rear view contest on Ty Jerome was a huge play late. Like he's active, he's competing, he's got his shortcomings and get out of position. Obviously he's a smaller, slender player on ball, but like he just competes and does his job on defense. And so as I look forward to the Knicks series, like I think this is a very different matchup for the Knicks than the Celtics. And I want to, I want to make a similar example to what I use. If you guys remember after the Lakers Timberwolf series, one of the things that the Lakers did in the Timberwolf series is because of their play style with, with Luka Doncic, they're basically just picking on switches and running a lot of high ISO, right? And so as a result, it challenges your individual defenders, particularly your weaker individual defenders. But it is not so much a mental challenge. It's not a lot of ball and player movement. There's not a lot of like pace and blender to what they're doing. And then you go into the Minnesota matchup or you go into the Golden State matchup with Minnesota and all of a sudden it's like in game one you could just see it's like Steph's getting clean looks right away, they're losing Buddy healed in screening action. It's just all of a sudden there's just this blender of ball and player movement. And like without Steph Curry, they were holding second half leads in the games in Golden State, although the talent differential ended up being too much for them to overcome. But there's a similar dynamic at play as we head into this next matchup for the Knicks in the sense that as the Knicks Deployed a game plan centered around switching with their five and switching with Jalen Brunson, which I agreed with was their best game plan for the Celtics in particular, the Celtics fell into the trap. The purpose of that game plan is not just a gift Boston favorable matchups. The purpose of that game plan was to stagnate Boston, to force them into a bunch of isolation attack while you on the other end have everybody involved. And it can just lead to kind of a rhythm differential between the two offenses. And we saw that manifest as the Knicks pulled away last night. Here's the thing with the Pacers. You can try switching if you want. They're not going to stagnate. They attack switching with speed in ball and player movement. They will still throw the ball to Siakam on the block, they still will throw the ball to Turner on the block, but they will get the ball moving quickly throughout the possession and force you to make mistakes early in the clock. And then they'll go down to a deep post up and they'll attack it at the front of the rim. That's the big difference between what Siakam and Turner do to your guards and what Boston does. Boston isolates and faces up from 23ft and might work you down to the elbow, but they're not trying to back you down into these like right at the front of the rim type of post ups. Very often the Pacers, they'll move the ball around and when they get the favorable switch, they don't pitch the ball to Siakam at the top of the key. Siakam seals that dude on the block and they throw it down and he's just turning over his left shoulder for easy shit right off the glass. That's what Miles Turner is doing too. They beat switches right at the front of the rim and they can beat switching with their ball and player movement. That doesn't matter what your half court scheme is. If they're going to push the ball up the floor with pace and get into action early and get you into rotation before you're ever set to begin the possession. This Pacers team is a fundamentally different offensive challenge than what the Boston Celtics do. We all know what the Celtics can do when they get going with their drive and kick. There's a certain level of talent that they have in their three point shooting all over the floor. The Pacers bring that too, but they never stagnate. That's the big difference. And all I could think about last night after the Knicks won and everyone's celebrating. The Knicks is I'm just worried about a guy like Carl Anthony Towns just being put into a million actions at the top of the key and not like being asked to just guard Tyrese Halliburton in switches in space, but rather Tyrese Halliburton getting there and then just driving right by Carl Anthony Towns and swing and pass, pass pass and driving kick and another wide open three. Like there's a pace and a flow to what the Pacers do that never runs out of steam. You want to know why they come back again tonight after going down by 19 in the early second quarter? Because it never stops. The ball pressure never stops. The pace never stops. The relentless hunting of advantages never stops. The relentless hunting of mismatches never stops. They just keep coming at you. And so I don't think there's like a game plan trick to slowing down the Pacers other than you just have to be super attentive and you've got to try to keep the ball in front of you and you've got to close out the shooters. They're like so many of these Cavs players are not as slow as you'd think. There's a couple guys like I thought DeAndre Hunter in particular looked stuck in the mud often throughout the series, but most of it is just simple decision making from Cleveland. Like your natural tendency to sink into the elbow in an off ball situation while not being attentive. And it's just a quick swing pass and there's Aaron Neesmith going right past you to the front of the rim or running right past you for an offensive rebound or obi toppin. You watch, you turn your head for a second, he's cutting along that baseline. And so it's like I, like I said for the this like the Timberwolves matchup, I thought that the Celtics series was a test of Jalen Brunson in Karl Anthony Town's individual defensive talent on an island. And Cat was able to get some stops against Tatum late in Game 4. Brunson was able to get stops late in Game 1 against Tatum, late in Game 2 against Jaylen Brown, in the post against Horford at various points in time. This is going to be more of a mental challenge. The idea of contending with the Pacers and their flow is going to be a test up here for your ability to pay attention. And I think that's going to be a super fascinating series. Obviously the Celtics series isn't, isn't even over yet, but with the news with Jason Tatum's Achilles tear, I would just be stunned if Boston won three in a row against the Knicks. So I do think we're going to end up getting Knicks Pacers in that third round series. On the Cavs front, you know, it feels like it's very difficult for me to get a good feel for just how big their issues are. There are obvious issues that you can't just explain away with injuries. Jared Allen got his ass kicked and that's unfortunate because he got his ass kicked by Mitchell Robinson and Isaiah Hardenstein a couple years ago. Like, there is a. There is a couple of examples of Jared Allen being a very good regular season center who runs into these settings and suddenly is not as impactful, not as physical as he needs to be. His advantage is running the floor and transition go away because everyone's running. DeAndre Hunter, I thought, had a brutal series on both ends of the floor. He was one of their biggest defensive problems. Ty Jerome struggles. Those aren't associated with injury. He just got his ass handed to him in the series on both ends of the floor. Next, Drew goes for zero points in an elimination game. Too many Cavs didn't play well. So there's a certain amount of this that is not explainable by injuries. But Darius Garland, I want to kind of like remind you guys of what I said when we were talking about Julius Randle. Rhythm is a fickle thing, especially for certain players. Yeah, Kevin Durant can have another ankle injury that keeps him out for five weeks and he can just walk onto an NBA court and score 27 points on 13 shots. He's Kevin Durant. He's the exception. Take him and remove him from the discussion. It's, it's just, it's entirely irrelevant to the majority of basketball players in the world for the most, for most basketball players, if you spend any sort of extended time away from the game, it takes a long time to get that rhythm back. There's a conditioning element, there's a leg strength element. There's kind of like a flow element. Like those of you guys who play will understand. You go on vacation and you come back and play pickup or you play in your men's league. Like the handle, it goes away. The jump shot goes away. Like there are a lot of different things that take, that take steps to recover to your full rhythm. Like there's making shots in practice, making shots against a defender in like a one on one situation. Making shots in a real game, like a very different type of, of, especially in an NBA playoff game with the level of intensity that there is there. And so I thought Darius Garland. It kind of reminded me of some of Julius Randle's early playoff runs, where he's just clearly out of rhythm. His jumper was off. He didn't look as explosive as he usually looks. Some of the reads he was missing, like Darius, the offense functioned well when he was on the floor. The CAVS logged about a 1:27 offensive rating when he was on the floor. But overall, just the not having Garland be the type of player that we know he's capable of being is like kind of having the head cut off. The SN Snake in a lot of ways. I thought Cleveland, in a lot of ways, kind of defaulted to a lot more heavy dose. Donovan Mitchell, they got away from going to the rim tonight. Cause I think Indiana wore them down a little bit. I think it's a combination of things. I think there are obvious limitations for this Cavs team that got exposed in this playoff run. But losing basically the heart and soul of your offense and then putting him out there as a shell of himself, I think that that also kind of exacerbated the issues. There was never really any sustained stretch in the series where I thought they looked like the Cavs, the Cavs that I watched in the regular season. And so I think it's important as you head into this off season to acknowledge that some of this is not explainable by injuries. And you need to look at some specific ways to. To kind of reconfigure the roster. Like, if you're going to end up playing small with Evan Mobley at center for large portions of the game, or if you're going to close with Jared Allen, and Jared Allen's going to get just stuffed in a bag by. By Miles Turner. Like, there's a certain amount of, like, you got to start looking at that wing position and trying to get a better version of, like, what DeAndre Hunter is, you know, what Dean Wade is. They need something that provides more juice for them in these playoff lineups because too many of the guys that worked for them in the regular season did not work for them in this series. We'll do a lot more digging into that as we get into the offseason. My whole frame of mind is very much focused on the postseason right now, and we'll take a lot more look at that when we get into June and July. But obviously, disappointing end of the season for the Cavs and a lot of introspection that they've got ahead of them as we head into this summer. All right, we're gonna have Jackson come on we're going to take a solid 10, 10 minutes or so questions before we head over to playback.
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Podcast Host
Let's do it. Let's do it. We're going to start with go back to the Denver OKC series first and then take some, some Caps questions. Why does Denver keep loading up on SGA at the top of the key and leaving that corner swing three wide open?
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Advertiser
There are certain realities with Denver's defense from the standpoint of personnel. I mean, like, guys, look at the late game lineup. Like, you have Michael Porter Jr. Out there, you have Nicole Jokic out there, you have Jamal Murray out there. And these have been the same realities for, for Denver's defense forever. But their defense is very much based on we can't stop these guys by playing straight up basketball. So we need to find a way to tilt things towards their higher variance options. And those are just their higher variance options. J Dub air mailed a 3 on the right wing late in the game before he made the big one in the left corner. Lou Dort missed a boatload of threes in this series. Like, a lot of guys miss threes at various points in this series. And so Denver's just taking a calculated risk. They're like, we, if we can play Shay into a rough night, then we have the opportunity to cause the entire Thunder offense to basically look at each other. Like, what are we going to do? Like, who's going to take the shot, who's going to have the flow, who's going to have the confidence to go here and, and like, like, I don't really see an option. Like, if you guys think of it like this, you start covering those shooters, that's where you're just going to get driven to pieces by Shay and J Dub, and those dudes will just be living at the front of the rim the entire series. And so I think, I think it honestly was probably the, the best way to do it. I mean, if we talked about Oklahoma City during the regular season, we always talked about loading up the strong side, conceding those, you know, kind of like lesser role player, moderately contested, high pressure threes, and it didn't work. And you, you know, it's, it's playing the results at that point. I think if you, I think if you guard Lou Dort close, if you guard Caruso close, if you guard all these guys close off ball, I think you just get cut to pieces in the lane.
- [30:05]
Podcast Host
Yeah, I mean, you can play the results both ways. In tonight's game, they had some open swing threes and Shea Also had a nasty ISO step back mid range and one and he had a nasty spin move where he got to the rim. If you guarded him, if you're just letting him ISO straight up with no help every time, not going to score every time. But he's, he's very, very, he's plenty capable. It's his best skill.
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Advertiser
Isoing for the record too. Denver actually generated 23 unguarded jump shots tonight. Catch and shoot jump shots. And Oklahoma city only generated 15. So Denver was actually getting better looks. But to the point that we were just discussing den Denver got 0.91 points per unguarded catch and shoot. OkC got 1.2. Like this has been a kind of a recurring theme for all the discussion about shooting result. OKC's outshot Denver in this series. Like, Denver's offense has bogged down because none of their dudes are making shots.
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Podcast Host
Speaking of none of their dudes making shots, question about Michael Porter Jr. Michael Porter Jr. Was pretty bad tonight, but if you're going to sit him in crunch time, who would you play instead? Considering Westbrook's jumper has also gone cold.
- [31:08]
Advertiser
I would have gone with Peyton Watson because at the very least he's going to give you defense and rebounding and a guy that you can put on the ball against Shay and or against J Dub. Like, I, I just didn't see the point. I didn't really understand the upside. Like what? Like on my first initial reaction with Jokic was like, why'd you even pass the ball to him there on that one at the top of the key, the one right after J Dub hit his three to put him up three. My second take was like, why is he even out there? Like I was like in, in real time. I'm just like, I feel like that's not the right option because Michael Porter just had no confidence in his jump shot at all. And Peyton Watson wasn't hitting either, but at the very least you can count on him to do some other things.
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Podcast Host
And also, yeah, and Peyton Watson is less likely to take a dumb shot. He's probably less likely to make a hard one, but he's also less likely to take a dumb one.
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Advertiser
Very good point. In this postseason run on unguarded catch and shoot jump shots, Michael Porter Jr. Is shooting six for 20, 30%, just 0.9 points per.
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Podcast Host
That's tough. All right. Now, one more question about this series. The Thunder have won crunch time each of the last two games. Do you think that's more of a statement about their growth or The Nuggets running out of gas.
- [32:21]
Advertiser
It's both. Although not tonight. I mean Jokic made. Jokic made enough shots for his entire team in crunch time tonight. Like he, he was a single man, like a single handed, just crunch time wrecking ball tonight. But I, I mean we saw this on playback when we watched game four and we'll see it tonight when we watch down the stretch. But like credit to Oklahoma City, their, their two stars made plays in crunch time when they couldn't make them in the other parts of the game. So like they like those credit. Those guys, like those dudes just made plays like they got into the lane. I think, I think there's a wear and tear element with Denver's defense to where like a couple of those late layups, like specifically the spin movie out on Christian Brown, it was where he just went right back to the rim. Jokic was like just not even ready for it and he just kind of conceded the layup and Christian Brown was on his heels that entire possession. That's part of like that onslaught and then like kind of letting go of the rope because they just wear you down for sure.
- [33:20]
Podcast Host
Let's take a couple about the, the other series and maybe some general NBA questions. Would you run it back with the Cavs next year with Tatum out in the east if the honors is traded to the west again? I mean, not that the Bucks were a contender this year, but the, the east is theoretically getting even easier next year. So despite losing in the second round, would you run it back? Would you try to make some, some big structural changes?
- [33:41]
Advertiser
I would seriously start canvassing the market surrounding Jared Allen and Darius Garland and the case there is this. There are some realities to the Darius Garland entry point thing. He did get attacked quite a bit, including the Aaron, Andrew Nemhard and one in crunch times tonight that ended up being a big play where he just kind of backed him down along the baseline. I discussed the offensive rating. The Cavs logged like a 127 offensive rating with Darius Garland on the floor. What do you think their defensive rating was with Darius Garland on the floor? Like 1:40. It was 127. So like. So the, the point is, is they got lit on fire on the other end of the floor. Jared Allen. To me, I, I will have this image burned in my brain of him getting his ass kicked in the playoffs these last few years as, as like a real problem. I think that there's, I think they need to be hunting down more big strong forwards that can dribble, shoot pass and Defend. And so if you have the ability to like. Donovan Mitchell has clearly demonstrated that he's one of those guys. And Evan Mobley, I think, is continuing to progress on, like, a year by year basis in a way that I think is tangible and real and, And. And useful for their development in the future. But I, I think. I think you gotta look at that playoff rotation. I like Max Truce. I think Max, like, he had a rough game tonight, but I thought he was really good for the most part in this postseason run. And he's like a good defender and a guy that just kind of is in the right place at the right time all the time. Like, he's one of those guys that I would. I would stick with, but there I would. I would like to. I would start looking around for a team. What are some fun Garland teams? Just for good question, Orlando.
- [35:24]
Podcast Host
Orlando's a great one. Orlando's a great one.
- [35:27]
Advertiser
Houston would be a fun Garland team. I like him. Anchored by freaky athleticism. Would be fascinating, especially as a guy that could just kind of set him up with advantages. But the thing with Darius Garland, it's not even that I don't believe in him when he's healthy, because I want to be clear. Like I said this on the show a bunch of times, he was one of my favorite players to watch this year. He was so much fun when he was healthy. He was like cutting like a knife through butter when he would drive through the lane around it. Like, it felt like he could beat anybody he wanted off the dribble and get to any spot on the floor that he wanted to. But the whole thing that everyone was talking about all year is, like, the reason why Darius is doing this. It's not that he just got better. It's because he's healthy. And then he got. He broke down at the end of the year. And so, like, a small guard that can't stay healthy, that has his defensive limitations. Like, that's where I get to the point where I start to worry about him as a foundational piece. But I. The thing that concerns me is Cavs fans, like, love that dude and for good reason. But there are just some realities to playoff basketball. Like, if there hasn't been a. A giant, like, flashing red light to tell you guys that the playoffs are a different sport. Like, we came this close tonight to Denver taking a 32 lead and putting the third 60 win team because we had three 61 teams this year. One of them's already gone, the second one's about to be gone. And the third one was on the ropes tonight until they finally pulled out a game late. And it still could go either way here the rest of the series. And so whatever your net rate, like all the net rating talk in the regular season, all the focus on regular season dominance, it comes down to who can thrive in this sport, which is playoff NBA basketball, which is a different sport, and who has the versatility to make it through four rounds by adjusting to different opponents. Like, it has never been more like that in NBA history for sure.
- [37:22]
Podcast Host
The next question. The Pacers have now gotten to the conference finals in back to back years despite not having a top 10 player. Do you think that their team is an example of a different style of team building that's possible in the NBA? It's historically very much been. If you're going to advance deep into the playoffs, you need a high, high, high level top 10 player who's got that kind of scoring ability. And they seem to be bucking the trend a little bit.
- [37:45]
Advertiser
Jackson, is Tyres Halliburton A top 10 player? I think.
- [37:48]
Podcast Host
Oh man, that is a.
- [37:50]
Advertiser
Like we, this is. We're going to have fun.
- [37:51]
Podcast Host
This is tyrese Halliburton, top 10 player. Jesus Christ. I, to be honest, a question that hadn't even crossed my mind when I read the question, but now that you say it, I mean, maybe, I don't know.
- [38:01]
Advertiser
It's not a points per game.
- [38:03]
Podcast Host
Certainly not. I mean, obviously not for him.
- [38:05]
Advertiser
Like, I, I don't, I like. Tyrese to me is an offensive engine. He's closer to like the Steph Jokic ilk than he is to like the, like. Guys, here's a, here's some basic stats for you so that we can put away the idea of, of points per game with Tyrese Halliburton. He's run 152 ball screens in the postseason, including passes, and he's generating 1.07 points per possession. He's run 49 ISOs, most of them against switches. He's generated 59 points. That's 1.20 points per possession. He's been a super reliable shot creator in this postseason run. Like, like I. It's so much deeper than just putting shots, putting individual shot making on the table. Like he is, like, it is such a, it is such a half court surgery sport and he just keeps his offense in rhythm consistently. He's had the clutch shot making late. I'm not saying he's a top 10 player, but when we, when we discuss this summer, I wouldn't be surprised if he landed at like 9, 10, 11, 12 in that range. And we'll see, we'll, we'll talk about it more this summer. To the point of the question though, like, there's been all this debate about, you know, the stars versus the depth. And I've given my two cents in terms of, like me still feeling like stars are determining outcomes in many cases. But it is both, and it's always been both. Depth is probably a little more relevant now just because of pace. There's more possessions every game. The games are more intense, there's more ground coverage, there's more physical wear and tear. So all that's fair. But there's no doubt that it takes both. You need to have a great player at the head, a great number two, and you need to have a lot of talent down the roster. And as if we go back in NBA history, Boston wasn't just the top five guys. They had six starting caliber players. And then Sam Houser was legit and Peyton Pritchard was legit. You go back to the previous year with Denver, it was Bruce Brown. Like they had, they had like six starters that they could legitimately trust and they could, oh, this is not in a Michael Porter Jr. Game. We're going to lean into Bruce Brown more in this particular game. You go back to 22 with the Warriors. It was Jordan Pool having the success that he had off of the bench. And what's his name, the guy, the wing who always gets hurt, Otto Porter Jr. The Warriors. The warriors capturing a season of useful auto. Porter Jr play 2020, 21 with the Bucks. You look at, you know, P.J. tucker as a bench weapon. You go to the Lakers and it's Rajon Rondo and Kyle Kuzma coming off the bench. You go back to 2019, you, we can go down the line. Like every NBA champion has had like six or seven awesome players. There are no examples that I can think of where there was a superstar and a bunch of bums who won the title. That doesn't happen. That doesn't happen. Guys like you need superstars and you need depth. Like, like, or if you're the Celtics last year, you can have two near superstars and five $30 million players. But like, you win championships with talent. That has always been the case. The only thing we see at the highest levels is two really talented teams where sometimes there's a team that's a little bit more talented, but this team overcomes it because they play a better brand of basketball or they have a few role players that get hot or a star outplays the other star. But ultimately it's the super talented teams at the top that are competing every year. It's not bums like you need. You need both. And this Pacers team, everyone's gotten better. We've talked about it. Turner is better. He's beaten switches at a super high level now. Siakam had his is coming on at the right time. Nith and Nemhardt have both gotten better each of the last couple of years. Tyrese Halliburton is the best he's looked since the start of last year. Ben Matherin has become a really useful off the bench weapon for them. TJ McConnell is one of the top four or five backup guards in the league. They're talented, as is every great team that ever makes deep playoff runs in NBA history.
- [42:19]
Podcast Host
100%. 100% even. That's true even of, even of some teams that we think of as top heavy like those, you know, championship era Cavs and Warriors teams like Sean Livingston is coming off the bench super, super useful like both of these teams have. Richard Jefferson was massive for the Cavs in that series. Both Channing Frye, both teams have even the best that most teams that we think of as particularly top heavy have a lot of depth as well. One more question, then we'll go over to playback. This is not about either of these two series today. Assuming the warriors lose to the T Wolves, should they try to build around their big three in the off season? Steph, Jimmy Draymond, or see if there's actually any way to pursue a major talent upgrade like Giannis? And just for fairness, for the hypothetical, I'm going to say building around their big three. The option A includes getting Cam Johnson and option B, you know, is Giannis because if it's just build around those three guys generally versus Giannis, the answer's like obviously Giannis.
- [43:14]
Advertiser
You call Giannis. This is what you do. You, Steph starts blowing up Giannis's phone and asking him to leverage things behind the scenes. It's not going to work because like the, the, the Bucks brass are going to look at Giannis in the face and be like, dude, I, I'm not going to turn down seven first round draft picks. Like, I, I don't know what to tell you, but you make the call. You, you do your deal D due diligence. You have Steph call Giannis, you have your front office call the Bucks front office. You, you explore everything there and you put together the best possible offer that you can But I mean, ultimately, like, even with the Giannis thing, if you get Giannis and it completely guts you of any depth, like, because, like, why would Milwaukee want, you know, Jimmy Butler, for instance? Like, you're going to have to, you're going to have to find a way to, to justify that deal with asset compensation. And so it's worth a call. It's just unlikely. And then I start to think of it from the perspective of the Cam Johnson piece and it's like, would you rather have Steph, Cam Johnson, Jimmy Butler and Draymond or Steph Giannis and Draymond? You obviously take Giannis, but, like, it's the, the Steph, Cam Johnson, Jimmy Butler, Draymond is still a really cool, like, upgrade that accentuates the specific areas that they need help in. And I think that team can compete for a championship. So it's not a bad fallback option, if that makes sense. You're not holding any delusions of grandeur that they're going to get you on, are you?
- [44:41]
Podcast Host
I don't think so. I think it, I think it's a very. It's one of the more fun two man pairings that we haven't seen before in the NBA, Stefan. I mean, stuff with a lot of players becomes the most fun two man team. But Stephanie on, it's particularly fun. But. No, I don't, I don't see.
- [44:56]
Advertiser
I don't see that. Yeah, it's just like the three buyers at the top of the league just have so much to offer that it's just, it's going to be extremely difficult to compete there. And I mean, especially now that the spurs have, they can dangle the number two overall pick, which is arguably a more valuable asset than anything that the Golden State warriors have access to. All right, guys, that's all we have for YouTube tonight. We're heading over to Playback. We'll see you guys there in just a couple minutes. Again, it's Playback TV Hoops tonight. We'll see you guys there in a couple minutes. What's up, guys? As always, I appreciate you for listening to and supporting Hoops tonight. It would actually be really helpful for us if you guys would take a second and leave a rating in and a review. As always, I appreciate you guys supporting us, but if you could take a minute to do that, I'd really appreciate it.
- [45:38]
Basketball Analyst
The Volume.
- [45:42]
Advertiser
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- [46:10]
Podcast Host
You're listening to an iHeart podcast.