← The Herd with Colin Cowherd
The Herd with Colin Cowherd
Hoops Tonight - NBA Mailbag: Bam Adebayo & Heat trades, Steph Curry's Warriors career, Jalen Williams underrated?
00:30:00
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- [00:00]
Devin
This is an iHeart podcast.
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Manny
Why are TSA rules so confusing?
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Devin
You got a hoodie on. Take it all.
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Manny
I'm Manny. I'm Noah.
- [00:11]
Devin
This is Devin.
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Manny
And we're best friends and journalists with a new podcast called no Such Thing, where we get to the bottom of questions like that. Why are you screaming? Well, I can't expect what to do now if the rule was the same, go off on me. I deserve it, you know?
- [00:25]
Devin
Lock him up.
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Manny
Listen to no Such thing on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
- [00:32]
Devin
No Such Thing.
- [00:34]
Jake Hofer
I'm Jake Hofer and this is back 40, a limited series show on Wire to Hunt, part of Meat Eaters Podcast Network. Each episode I'll be asking eight widetail hunting pros a focused, thought provoking question about hunting and land management. How do I hunt the best part of the farm with less than ideal access?
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Manny
Should you?
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Devin
That's what the real question is.
- [00:55]
Manny
Stand without good access is not a good stand.
- [00:58]
Jake Hofer
Listen to Back 40 on iHeartRadio app, Apple podcast, or wherever you get your podcast.
- [01:05]
Dani Shapiro
Your entire identity has been fabricated. Your beloved brother goes missing without a trace. You discover the depths of your mother's illness. I'm Dani Shapiro, and these are just a few of the powerful stories I'll be mining on our upcoming 12th season of Family Secrets. We continue to be moved and inspired by our guests and their courageously told stories. Listen to Family Secrets, Season 12 on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
- [01:35]
WebMD Host
From tips for healthy living to the latest medical breakthroughs, WebMD's Health Discovered podcast keeps you up to date on today's most important health issues. Through in depth conversations with experts from across the healthcare community, WebMD reveals how today's health news will impact your life tomorrow.
- [01:53]
Devin
It's not that people don't know that exercise is healthy, it's just that people don't know why it's healthy. And we're struggling to try to help people help themselves and each other.
- [02:01]
WebMD Host
Listen to WebMD Health discovered on the iHeartRadio app or wherever you get your podcasts.
- [02:07]
Dani Shapiro
The Volume.
- [02:22]
Devin
All right, welcome to Hoops Tonight here at the Volume. Happy Friday, everybody. Hope all of you guys are having a great week. Today is our next mailbag, geared around player rankings. Again. Remember, if you guys want to disagree or argue, anything in the player rankings, a player too high, player too low. Players should be on the list. Players shouldn't be on the list. Anything you want to get into surrounding the player rankings. Make sure you drop the mailbag questions in our full episodes. Put mailbag colon, write what you disagree with, write an elevator pitch a quick concise version of why you disagree, and we will get to them in our mailbags throughout the rest of this player ranking series. You guys know the drill before we get started, subscribe to the Hoops Tonight YouTube channel so you don't miss any more of our videos. Follow me on twitter_jason lt so you guys don't miss show announcements. Don't forget about our podcast fee wherever you get your podcast under Hoops Tonight. It's also super helpful if you leave a rating and a review on that front. Jackson's doing great work on our social media feeds, Twitter, Instagram, Facebook, and TikTok. Make sure you guys follow us there. Last but not least, like I mentioned earlier, just keep dropping those mailbag questions in the YouTube comments. All right, let's talk some basketball. First question hi Jason, Love your analysis. It's helped me understand the game on a deeper level. I would like to ask what is the thought process behind ranking a player like Mobley higher than Harden? I get the low results of Harden during the playoffs, but isn't he fundamentally a much more impactful player than Mobley? Imagine a scenario where you were GM and you should begin a franchise around either of those two with the upcoming year. Isn't Harden's floor raising elite advantage creation a more significant asset that could help build a team around him with smaller and more achievable roles? Or would you compare them strictly as number twos? So this is where it gets tricky. I do view advantage creation as a more valuable trait, the probably the most valuable individual trait that a basketball player can have. The problem is is there's tiers to it. So for instance, I think there are guys that can provide a rough facsimile of of advantage creation. Think like you know d' Angelo Russell or like this version of Chris Paul at his age. But like, I don't think either of those guys can do it at the volume necessary to do what a regular season team needs for 82 games to be like a good offense, right? Then there's like the tier above that which James Harden is in which is like this is the group of guys that are capable of creating advantages at a high level in a regular season context and give you a certain floor in the regular season. But it just doesn't translate the way it needs to in big moments and big games the way that it needs to to be reliable in that setting. And that kind of cuts it off at a certain point. Then there's like this next tier and this is where you're looking at the Tyrese Halliburton on the low end and like the Luka Doncic, I should say Tyrese Halliburton, LeBron type guys on the low end and then on the high end, guys like Luca, Nicola, Jokic, so on and so forth, where it's like they can give you this super high regular season offensive floor and they give you this certain amount of reliability when they get into the postseason. And so again like James Harden's advantage creation is going to give him an edge over a lot of the guys that I had below him among that tier. But once we enter into additional tiers of, of like what I'm trying to accomplish, like if I'm trying to accomplish a championship this year, if I have Harden as my best player on one hand and I have Mobley as my best player on the other hand, I'm not winning a championship with either of them. Yeah, Harden is going to give me a better offense. I'm probably going to win more regular season games. I'm almost certainly going to win more regular season games, but like neither of them are getting me a championship. We're looking at it in the context of like when I'm trying to reach that ultimate goal. Evan Mobley as my second best player, I feel like I have a better chance to win the title than James Harden as my second best player. James Harden skill set is incredibly valuable. It's why he deserves the paycheck that he gets. For the record, as I said in the beginning of our list, each of the top 40 players in the NBA I think are worthy of the salaries that they're on. A lot of people are freaking out that dear and Fox makes as much money as he makes. When you really think about a guy who reliably gets to the rim, that can knock down a lot of high level shots in the mid range, who's like a very good clutch player and is a good forward aggressive turnover forcing defensive playmaker, like to me, dearon Fox kind of fits the criteria of a max level player. Now we can argue about whether or not the those $50 million contracts can hamstring teams, but the truth is, is that as the cap goes higher and higher with the new TV deal, the a guy like Darren Fox brings a lot to the table and he's worthy of the money that he makes. To me, James Harden, who ranked 26th on this list by the way, is an incredibly valuable regular season offensive engine. But he runs into such a clear and defined ceiling, I should say a very low floor when he gets into these big big playoff moments that it's almost like a disqualifier for me. Whereas Evan Mobley has so much reliable night to night playoff impact that I feel like with him I have a better chance as my number two. But again, as we talked about, I'm not seeing a massive gap there between where I have Mobley and where I have Harden. It's all relative to where the guys are in that tier. Realistically, Bam seems seems to have shown us his ceiling. An elite defender who can be a key fulcrum in a ball movement offense through dribble handoffs and playmaking and can maybe provide further spacing if three point shooting trends up. We should stop expecting him to be a 20 plus point per game score. That being said, Miami is in is not in a spot roster wise to showcase all the elite tools that Bam does have on a big playoff stage. If Bam does become available, where would you like to see him go? Slash who has the necessary assets? Where would he best fit and contribute most to championship level basketball? That is a very good question and it's very well laid out in the sense that I fundamentally agree with you that like Bam's specific trait, his set of traits is so valuable, but not valuable enough in the Miami scheme to be worth kind of like tying your future around him. Right. So I was trying to think through what kind of teams would make sense for a guy like Bam out of bio to where he would come in and immediately be weaponized for what he's great at and covered for what he's bad at and be able to lift a team to the next level. And what I thought about was it's gotta be a five out context. I don't think he has as much value in a four out one in context. Mainly just because he's not the same vertical spacer as even a guy like Evan Mobley, let alone some of the guys that are above him on this list. Right. And so I think he's in his lack of finishing ability in that short range layup range. I think also limit him as a 4 out 1 in player. So like to me it needs to be in a five out offense where he's running dribble handoffs and being more relied on as a screener decision maker at the top of the key than a guy that's just being a play finisher in the dunker spot. So that's the first thing I'm looking at. Secondly, I think he needs to be surrounded by a lot of offensive talent. I think he needs to be surrounded by guys that can do the majority of the shot creation on the ball so that he's not dependent on in that regard at all and so that he can average 15 points per game and it not be something that is damaging to his team. So that's kind of the set of situations that I think makes the most sense. I put down five teams that I think make sense for Bam. 1. The New York Knicks. I think if he kind of filled into that Isaiah Hartenstein role that he was in two years ago, I think he'd do a wonderful job of that. Running those actions with Mikhail Bridges and Jalen Brunson out top the backdoor cutting that's available in that offense with just those really smart offensive players that he's surrounded by having all that offensive firepower around him to kind of bolster him in that way. So that's not needed. But also giving them a legitimate defensive anchor to make them a viable playoff defense. I think Bam would be a fantastic fit with the Knicks. To the Pacers. It just lost Miles Turner. They have a gaping hole at that center spot and I can't think of a better five out big to fit with the Tyrese Halliburton led offense and Andrew Nemhard led offense than a guy like Bam Adebayo. I think he'd be awesome with the Indiana Pacers. 3. The Detroit Pistons this is a team that they're kind of on the fence about how they feel about their centers. They're in this situation where they're about to have to extend guys like Jaylen Duran or decide whether or not they want to invest in an Isaiah Stewart and they have the assets to be able to pull off a move like bringing a guy like Bam at Aayo in. It'd be an interesting kind of veteran bet on a guy like Kate Cunningham. I think that they're a little bit more in that four out one in context, but I think that they have the shooting talent with a guy like Duncan Robinson and with Caris Lavert and his ball handling I think they could try to add more five out concepts and I think Bam could be a guy that fits there reasonably well. 4th the Golden State warriors this is pipe dream, but I can't think of a guy who would fit better in a Steph Curry led five out offense than a guy like Bam at a bio obviously in a very high IQ defensive playmaking type of group. I think he could be really useful. Steve Kerr also loves to do a lot of switching, which is something that Bam is particularly great at. Then lastly, the San Antonio Spurs. I think that he would complement a guy like Victor Wembanyama extremely well as a more big physical player that has the ability to put Victor into some different defensive roles so that he doesn't always have to be guarding ball screens or he doesn't always have to be guarding the Nicola Jo Kitches of the world. I think that San Antonio would be a really interesting fit for a guy like Bam, and I also think that Victor's kind of tendency to want to play more like a wing on offense allows Bam to function more as that dribble handoff fulcrum near the top of the key. Next question. Jason Big fan of the show, Top two Hope show period. Thank you so much for the kind words, but I have to say not having cat top 25 is insanity. He was amazing offensively at times and the best player on the floor at moments. Throughout the playoffs he's taken over multiple fourth quarters where the defense literally can't stop him. How did Trey Young make it over him? He's super inefficient and worse on defense than Cat just by size alone. Side note, Cat was a significantly better. It was significantly better than Bam this season. Would love to hear a response. Have a good one my man. Keep, keep doing your thing. This has been the biggest thing that I struggle with that a lot of people disagree with me. But like I view there to be two different kinds of bad defenders. We talked about this concept a lot before I went to Alaska. There's bad defenders that are physically incapable of being great defenders and then there are defenders that are so sloppy in the details and so prone to mistakes that they literally become a death sentence for a defense. And to me Cat falls into that category. Cat is so incredibly mistake prone he almost single handedly lost them game six with his reckless crashing, poor floor balance and just getting outrun up and down the floor because he just wasn't paying attention to what he was needing to do at several other points throughout the season and throughout the postseason. His really inconsistent hedges and shows and his inability like committing to one side of the ball screen before the ball handler even has and just giving up easy dribble penetration. He is so mistake prone on defense that he's literally impossible to build a good defense around. The only way you can is by putting an excellent defensive center next to him like Minnesota did. That came with its own limitations in terms of roster construction and the allocation of resources when you need to cover for him by having an excellent defensive center, which is going to cost you 30 plus million dollars in the modern NBA. So I kind of view him as like a fundamentally flawed player to try to build a championship team around. If he's a big that can't play center in a real on a real defense but makes over 50 million, it's just kind of like a death sentence for me in that regard. I also just think Trey's a much better offensive player than him and this really comes down to my biggest opinion, which is that I value advantage creation in that offensive engine piece more than I value like tip of the spear scoring. And that's just more of a basketball philosophy thing of mine. A lot of J Dub stuff Next question. I have trouble accepting your J Dub evaluation in general, but here I will address the comparison to Butler. Let me first say Jimmy Butler is my favorite active player. Even so, he is well past his prime while Williams is ascending. Butler misses games every season due to injury and that's likely to continue or even worsen this season. As you explained, Williams should perform better this season because of maturation and health. Butler has shown that he's no longer a consistent postseason performer, which age does, whereas Williams just showed the opposite despite injury. I get the whole young versus Vet thing, but Williams is so good and Butler is old. I just can't see how one can reasonably expect Butler to be a better asset to a team across this upcoming season. And let's not even talk about contracts. So first of all, Jimmy just averaged 197 and 5 in the postseason. It's not like he wasn't producing at a high level. And I think he was at 57% true shooting, which is respectable. It's not like Jimmy wasn't producing. And this is where it's important to acknowledge the surrounding circumstances. That Golden State offense, that Golden State roster is devoid of offensive talent after Steph Curry and Jimmy. That's why like guys, even Steph Curry himself, mega struggled relative to his standards before Jimmy Butler entered the equation and made things easier. In other words, if I swapped cause again, look at Oklahoma City. I talked about it extensively. The star of that team was their defense. Shea and J Dub were both pretty inconsistent on offense in that playoff run. Their defensive play, they deserve credit for how they contributed to the defense, but both of them had offensive limitations that led to them getting taken to 77 games by two teams that were inferior to them. In short, if I if I swapped them. If I put J Dub on that warriors roster that is devoid of offensive talent and asked him, especially after Steph was out of the lineup, to go carry that warriors offense, he's also going to look really bad against the Minnesota Timberwolves. And I believe if I took Jimmy Butler and put him on that same super deep Oklahoma City roster and allowed him to play off of Shea as a secondary shot creator and leading bench units, I think Jimmy Butler would be slightly better than Jada. I think he's just a little bit more experienced, a little bit more reliable night tonight. I think he's actually a little bit better of a defensive playmaker off the ball and he's got this unique ability to get to the foul line, something that gives him the ability to strangle the pace of postseason games, which gives him a tough a bunch of value. I want to get a little bit more into Jimmy here in a minute, but the point is I don't expect that to last. I think J Dub is the heir apparent to that archetype of player. I just will always favor that older, more experienced player. It's kind of just a basketball worldview of mine. Would love to hear your reasoning as to why you prefer Jimmy over Siakam for next year's playoffs, not to mention the regular season effort. I feel like I would much rather have Siakam for a playoff run than Jimmy. Siakam is a better three point shooter than Jimmy and was more consistent with looking to score throughout the playoffs. Watching Jimmy against the T Wolves, it seemed like he didn't even want to look at the rim for big chunks of the game. I also think Siakam is a more versatile defender. UFC 319 is blowing back to the Windy City for the first time in six years. Check out the fight card and get in in all the action at DraftKings Sportsbook, the official sports betting partner of the UFC, Dricus du Plessis, puts his middleweight title up against Kazmat Chimaev, who's a perfect 14 0. Who are you taking? First time betting on the UFC at DraftKings? Just pick something simple like a fighter to win and make your pick. It's that easy. 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- [18:48]
Manny
Imagine that you're on an airplane and all of a sudden you hear this.
- [18:52]
Devin
Attention, passengers. The pilot is having an emergency and we need someone, anyone, to land this plane.
- [19:00]
Manny
Think you could do it? It turns out that nearly 50% of men think that they. They could land the plane with the help of air traffic control. And they're saying, like, okay, pull this until this, pull that, Turn this. It's just I can do my eyes closed. I'm Manny. I'm Noah.
- [19:15]
Devin
This is Devin.
- [19:16]
Manny
And on our new show, no such thing, we get to the bottom of questions like these. Join us as we talk to the leading expert on overconfidence.
- [19:25]
Devin
Those who lack expertise lack the expertise they need to recognize that they lack expertise. Teas.
- [19:32]
Manny
And then as we try the whole thing out for real. Wait, what? Oh, that's the Runway. I'm looking at this thing.
- [19:38]
Devin
See?
- [19:39]
Manny
Listen to no such thing on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. A foot washed up, a shoe with.
- [19:49]
Devin
Some bones in it.
- [19:50]
Manny
They had no idea who it was.
- [19:52]
Devin
Most everything was burned up pretty good.
- [19:53]
Jake Hofer
From the fire that not a whole lot was salvageable.
- [19:57]
John Hope Bryant
These are the coldest of cold cases. But everything is about to change. Every case that is a cold case that has DNA right now in a backlog will be identified in our lifetime. A small lab in Texas is cracking the code on DNA using new scientific tools. They're finding clues in evidence so tiny you might just miss it.
- [20:19]
Devin
He never thought he was going to get caught. And I just looked at my computer screen, I was just like, ah, gotcha.
- [20:26]
John Hope Bryant
On America's Crime Lab, we'll learn about victims and survivors. And you'll meet the team behind the scenes at othram, the Houston lab that takes on the most hopeless cases to finally solve the unsolvable. Listen to America's crime Lab on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
- [20:46]
Az Fudd
Hey guys, it's Az Fudd. You may know me as a gold medalist, you may know me as an NCAA national champion and recent most outstand. You may even know me as the people's princess. But now you're also going to know me as your favorite host every week on my new podcast, futaround and find out. I'll give you an inside look at everything happening in my crazy life as I try to balance it all from my travels across the globe to preparing for another run at the natty with my UConn Huskies, to just trying to make it to my midterms on time. You'll get the inside scoop on everything. I'll be talking to some special guests about pop culture, basketball and what it's like to be a professional athlete on and off the court. You'll even get to have some fun with the Fud family. So if you follow me on social media or watch me on tv, you may think you know me, but this show is the only place where you can really fut around and find out. Listen to FUT around and find out. A production of iHeart Women's Sports in partnership with Unanimous Media on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
- [21:47]
John Lithgow
Hello, I'm John Lithgow.
- [21:49]
Devin
We choose to go to the moon.
- [21:51]
John Lithgow
I want to tell you about my new fiction podcast that's One Small Step for Man. It's about Buzz Aldrin, one of the true pioneers of space.
- [22:00]
Devin
You're a great pilot, Buzz. As far as I'm concerned, the best I've seen.
- [22:05]
John Lithgow
That's the story you think you know. This is the story you don't predisposition.
- [22:10]
Dani Shapiro
To depression, alcohol abuse and suicide.
- [22:12]
John Lithgow
We'll see Buzz try to overcome demons.
- [22:16]
Dani Shapiro
What do you say, Buzz?
- [22:17]
John Lithgow
Another beer and triumph over addiction.
- [22:19]
Dani Shapiro
Here's to you, Buzz Aldrin.
- [22:22]
John Lithgow
Good luck to you and become a true hero.
- [22:25]
Devin
Buzz and I will proceed into the.
- [22:26]
John Lithgow
Lunar module not because he conquers space, but because he conquers himself.
- [22:33]
Devin
Buzz, we intercepted a Soviet radio transmission.
- [22:36]
John Lithgow
Starring me, John Lithgow.
- [22:38]
Devin
Can you put it through Translate on.
- [22:41]
John Lithgow
The iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.
- [22:46]
Devin
Columbia. So again, Jimmy. Jimmy has two high level traits that make him, in my opinion, a better all around offensive player in the postseason than a lot of people give him credit for. One, he's kind of like a legitimate point forward playmaker. Siakam falls more in line with what I would consider to just be a straight up score. And again, there's a lot of value there. I'm not trying to undercut the success of a guy who could put the ball in the basket, but Siakam scored at volume a little bit better than Jimmy and Jimmy is a substantially better playmaker at the position. The second piece of it is the reliability of his ability to get to the foul line. We talked about this when we covered Jimmy, but because of his obscene foul rate, you gave the ball to Jimmy one on one and his ability to score, his score percentage was over 50%. It was an incredibly reliable play type because of Jimmy's ability to get to the foul line. So I looked at Jimmy as a more reliable possession to possession score and a better playmaker than a guy like Siakam, while also coming pretty close to Siakam's scoring volume overall. And that's in the context again, Siakam was playing in a high octane pace and space, surrounded by a shit ton of shooting. And Jimmy Butler is playing for a Golden State team that literally was playing like two, three, sometimes four non shooters at any given moment. That was a very, very limited offensive roster for Golden State. Well, Siakam, the secondary star, Jason, he won the Eastern Conference finals mvp. And if they won the NBA Finals, I would argue he would have won finals mvp, which if you do that, you're number one. Halle was clutch as hell, but I don't think he played as well as Siakam. Again, this comes down to that same concept that I've been talking so much about. I value the advantage creation. To me, the Pacers embodied what Tyrese Halliburton did. Look at the on off numbers. The Pacers offense was way better with Halliburton on the floor versus when Halliburton was off the floor. Because he is the guy who injects the life. He's the guy that throws the kick ahead, passes, that makes the quick decisions, that hunts early advantages in the first few seconds of the shock clock that greased the wheels for that entire Indiana Pacers offense. I value that trait more than a guy who can just simply put the ball in the basket. Siakam is incredible. I moved him way up the list this year. But no, I do not view Pascal Siakam as a better basketball player than Tyrese Halliburn. I think if you went to the Pacers front office, irrespective of age, even with Tyrese's Achilles injury and you were like, who would you rather have moving forward? Tyrese Halliburton or Pascal Siakam. I think they in a heartbeat would say that they'd prefer to have Tyrese Halliburton. This is a kind of a bigger picture question surrounding some of the concepts I've been talking about. How do you balance value or excuse me, how do you balance slash value? Experience and youth? Experience may help players in big games, but it's more detailed and hard to tell Youth can a youth can help have better sustainability, more minutes and more net contribution in a long season. Maybe a series or a game too. For example, would you rather have 2015 curry or 2020 curry? Thank you. So this is where I've always talked about this concept of like young players struggling to see what works and replicate it and struggling to see what doesn't work and trim that fat. Young players tend to have a higher ceiling. Their athletic traits give them the ability when their game is clicking to reach a level that the older versions of themselves don't reach. If I had to simplify or synthesize my opinion that I favor veterans over young talent down to one singular concept, here's what I would say. When you get into big basketball moments, it actually becomes more about not making mistakes. Then it comes down to your supreme gift guiding you to an individual possession of greatness. Championship basketball teams don't make mistakes relative to their peers, generally speaking, because everyone gets tired and everyone gets worn down by the physicality and everyone struggles from the game planning and the just overall intensity and stakes and pressure and in fear and everything that gets wrapped up into those moments, it really becomes about can you keep your floor high enough to survive? Can you hang on to the rope longer than your opponent? That's how you win big basketball games. They tend to end at super low low scores. Any like game sevens, big game sixes, clutch situations, the offensive ratings all tank and it tends tends to come down to who made fewer mistakes. Take 2015 Curry versus 2022 Curry. Do you think 2022 Curry is going to throw a behind the back pass to Klay Thompson in the corner like he did in the 2016 finals when he threw the ball out of bounds? No, that was a young version of Curry that was more mistake prone. 2022 Curry may not quite have had the crazy high highs as a guy like 2015 Curry, but 2022 Curry was a rock solid player who did not make mistakes and allowed a team to hang onto the rope longer than his peers. And guess what? The Celtics, they decomposed and made mistakes. Their young players fell apart and made mistakes. Remember When Tatum and Brown like straight up couldn't get the ball across half court without turning the ball over. Numerous stretches during that playoff run that especially in years surrounding that with like the Miami Heat when they would pick him up full court. Like these young Celtics were mistake prone. They didn't reach their ceiling in that finals. It's not like the warriors reached some crazy high level. They hung onto the rope and played disciplined mistake free basketball. That is why I lean towards vets in big spots. They tend to be less prone to the mistakes that can cost you basketball games. And yes, I do believe that 2022 curry or really that whole phase from the end of the 2021 regular season to the 2022 finals to be the best version of Steph Curry that I ever watched. All right, we have three more. There's just no way that any of these guys should be ahead of Cade in whatever criteria you use last season stats looking ahead, Kate is the number one option on a playoff team at 23 years old, averaging 26 and 9. You always say you gravitate towards an offensive engine type of player and then put three people who are second options slash non offensive engines. Even if you want to say book is a first option which he he never did. What Cade did as a first option as an offensive engine, in my opinion, Book was not the offensive engine in 2021. Either way, you put too much into playoff performance slash experience or you're penalizing too much for being young. Essentially what I'm saying is Kate is being a number one option on a playoff team with stats at his age only seen since since seen only since Oscar Robertson seen only since Oscar Robertson. That should automatically disqualify most number two options from being ahead of him. Unrelated, these lists get way too cloudy when you do past season. Plus looking ahead, in my opinion, the lists only based on the previous season are better. Nevertheless. Love the show. Cade's just my guy. Lol. I get it. You're defending your players fan. I totally understand that. I am a big believer in my criteria. But look, there's a million ways to do this and I don't blame you for disagreeing. And it kind of just. You know, one of the things with looking backwards is it doesn't take into account surrounding circumstances and that can be tough. And like I really try to look at this more in a vacuum as best as I can. But again, I'm a big believer in Cade. But it kind of comes down to what I was just talking about. Cade was mistake prone. The Pistons lost A lot of games at the end. Cade in the clutch in this postseason run, 4 for 12 with three turnovers overall in fourth quarters. Cade 12 for 32 with 15 assists and 10 turnovers counteracting those 15 assists. He was mistake prone at the end of those games and it stopped the Pistons from winning a lot of games that they should have won against the Knicks team. That was pretty underwhelming all year outside of a small handful of those games. So again, for a guy like Kate, he just has to learn to cut out the mistakes. If he does, he'll benefit more from his upside Next question Can you give me a single reason why my friend might have any argument that Dame's full body of talent should be ranked higher than Steph's? Is there any semblance of an argument that Steph would have had largely the same career that Dame did if he were to be the one in Portland in place of Dame? This is one of the biggest things that I fundamentally disagree with is this, this take that Dame is kind of in the same group as a guy like Steph. I actually do think that Dame is in the same territory as Steph as an on ball player. Only as an on ball player. Dame was a ridiculous off the dribble, pull up three point shooter who brought real downhill burst and who was a very good passer out of those high ball screens. But there were two things that Steph did that completely separated him from Dame. Like just completely put him in an entirely different tier. Meaning like I have Steph as one of the 10 best basketball players ever and Dame's not even close to that. When you start to evaluate a guy and it's a reason why if you'd have switched him, I would actually have viewed the Portland Trailblazers probably as a team that would have accomplished more than the Golden State Warriors. The simple reason why those two things one, the commitment to defense. Steph was bigger and stronger than Dame, a few inches taller, lot more in terms of the the amount of muscle that he brought to the table and Steph committed to becoming a useful defender. Steph did the job. He was never great, he was always the target, but he always did the job within the scheme and competed well enough that he could still have an elite defense with him on the floor. That was something that Dame was never able to accomplish. Dame just didn't quite have the same physical tools and he never put in the requisite amount of work. Dame was literally one of the worst defensive guards I watched in this era. And then the second piece of it. And this is something that Dame just left meat on the bone because it has nothing to do with physical tools, so to speak. Steph embraced off Ball Movement Steph is one of the best offensive engines in the NBA. It's a big reason why he ranks so high on the list this year. And one of the main reasons why is because when he just runs around in circles with his off ball movement, he attracts so much attention that it generates the advantages. The advantages that grease the wheels for any NBA offense. Steph running off a screen. Two guys run with him, they leave a guy open, it generates advantages. Steph comes off a high ball screen, passes it over top to the guy rolling in the four. On three it generates advantages. Steph has an offensive engine element to him that a guy like Damian Lillard never had. Those two things completely separated Steph from Dame, even though Dame was close in terms of an on ball talent to what Steph Curry did. And then last question. I'm surprised that you didn't even consider Chet Holmgren as a top 25 player for next season. He was arguably the Thunder's best player before he got injured last year. Yes, his offense is infuriating to watch sometimes, but he didn't get a lot of time to gel with the team once he came back. I think that'll improve dramatically next season when he plays a full season and has more reps playing with Shai and Jada. He's also a top two rim protector and one of the best defenders in the league in my opinion. It's hard to see how he doesn't have top 25 level impact. So the thing with Chet is I don't think he really brings other than vertical spacing. I don't think he brings really any reliable offensive trade at this point. I don't view him as a high level passer. He had more turnovers than assists in this postseason run. I think that he struggles as a post defender. He's a little too thin. He can get pushed around. I think on the offensive end of the floor, he can get pushed around a little bit on the glass, Excuse me. On the defensive end of the floor, he can get pushed around a little bit on the glass. On the offensive end of the floor, he can't knock down spot up jump shots. He's not a good decision maker. Driving closeouts, it's really just like can he catch and finish wide open dunks around the basket? Yes, he can. But everything else, he's a little bit inefficient, a little bit too prone to mistakes. When you look at the guys that are above him on this list, they bring like, real offensive utility. Bam, as frustrating as a player as he can be, he brings real offensive utility. And I just think Bam's a flat out better defensive player than Chad Holmgren. You look at a guy like Evan Mobley, I think Chet's a better defender than Evan Mobley. But Evan Mobley is a substantially better offensive player right now than Chet Holmgren is. He's a reliable catch and shoot guy and a guy who can run some action. To me, Chet will absolutely be very high on this list one day. I believe in him as an offensive talent. I think he'll figure all of this stuff out. But in this particular phase of his career, he's just way too limited offensively and has a couple of big weaknesses on defense that I think prevent him from getting higher on this list. All right, guys, that's all I have for today. As always, I sincerely appreciate you guys for supporting me and supporting the show. We will be back on Monday with our top 10. I will see you guys then.
- [36:06]
Manny
Why are TSA rules so confusing?
- [36:08]
Devin
You got a hoodie on. Take it all.
- [36:10]
Manny
I'm Manny. I'm Noah.
- [36:12]
Devin
This is Devin.
- [36:12]
Manny
And we're best friends and journalists with a new podcast called no Such Thing where we get to the bottom of questions like that. Why are you screaming at me? I can't expect what to do now if the rule was the same, go off on me. I deserve it, you know, Lock him up. Listen to no Such thing on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
- [36:32]
Devin
No Such Thing.
- [36:35]
Jake Hofer
I'm Jake Hofer and this is back 40, a limited series show on Wire to Hunt, part of Meat Eaters Podcast Network. Each episode, I'll be asking eight whitetail hunting pros a focused, thought provoking question about hunting and land management. How do I hunt the best part of the farm with less than ideal access?
- [36:53]
Manny
Should you?
- [36:54]
Devin
That's what the real question question is.
- [36:56]
Manny
Stand without good access is not a good stand.
- [36:59]
Jake Hofer
Listen to Back 40 on iHeartRadio app, Apple podcast, or wherever you get your podcast.
- [37:05]
Dani Shapiro
Your entire identity has been fabricated. Your beloved brother goes missing without a trace. You discover the depths of your mother's illness. I'm Dani Shapiro and these are just a few of the powerful stories I'll be mining on our upcoming 12th season of Family Secrets. We continue to be moved and inspired by our guests and their courageously told stories. Listen to Family Secrets Season 12 on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.
- [37:37]
Unknown
It's Black Business Month and Money and wealth podcast with John Hope Bryant is tapping in. I'm breaking down how to build wealth, create opportunities, and move from surviving to thriving. It's time to talk about ownership, equity, and everything in between. Black and brown communities have historically been lasting lives. Let me just say this AI is moving faster than civil rights legislation ever did. Listen to Money and Wealth from the Black Effect podcast network on iHeartRadio, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
- [38:06]
John Hope Bryant
This is an iHeart podcast.