← The Herd with Colin Cowherd
The Herd with Colin Cowherd
Hoops Tonight - Nuggets Deep Dive: Nikola Jokic can WIN TITLE after Cam Johnson, Valanciunas, Bruce Brown additions
00:54:20
Loading summary
Transcript85 lines
- [00:00]
Host
This is an iHeart podcast.
- [00:05]
Advertiser
Okay? Have you heard about this? Last year, Degree changed the formula for their Cool Rush deodorant. Their fans rebelled and wanted the old scent back and Degree listened. That doesn't happen often. They admitted that they effed up and are bringing the original Cool Rush scent back. And it's exactly how you remember it. Cool, crisp and fresh. There's a reason it's the number one men's antiperspirant and it's back in Walmart, Target and and other stores for under $4. So try it and see what the fuss is about. Head to your local stores to try the OG Cool Rush for yourself.
- [00:37]
Ryan Seacrest
Hey, it's Ryan Seacrest for Albertsons and Safeway. It's Oral Care Month, which means you can earn four times points on all your favorite oral care brands. Now through July 15, shop in store or online for items like Colgate Toothpaste, Listerine Mouthwash, Crest Mouthwash or Toothpaste Sensodyne Toothpaste, hello Toothpaste or Gum Flossers and earn four times points. Points can be redeemed for future discounts on gas or groceries. Offer ends July 15. Restrictions apply. Offers may vary. Visit albertsons or safeway.com for more details.
- [01:07]
Adam
The best kind of help is the kind you don't even have to ask for. Like your friend pulling up on moving day with a truck, a speaker and snacks ready to go. Well, that's the energy you get with AT&T's new guarantee. If there's ever a network interruption, they make it right by giving you credit for a full day of service. Proactively credit for Fiber downtime lasting 20 minutes or more or wireless downtime lasting 60 minutes or more to caused by a single incident impacting 10 or more towers. Restrictions and exclusions apply. See att.com guarantee for full details. AT&T connecting changes everything.
- [01:43]
Narrator
Welcome to the W where elite athletes are redefining the game of basketball. From buzzer beating shots, jaw dropping defense and logo threes, the WNBA delivers nonstop action and world class talent every game. The these athletes don't just play the game, they elevate it. The biggest stars, the brightest age. AT&T WNBA All Star 2025 comes to Indianapolis July 18th 19th. Tune into the game July 19th at 8:30pm Eastern Time on ABC.
- [02:14]
Advertiser
The volume.
- [02:18]
Adam
All right folks, this is insane. For the first time ever we've got a full blown all women's box boxing mega event going down in New York City. Two title fights on the same night. Let's go. And if you're like me and you love the action. DraftKings sportsbook is where it's at. We're talking Katie Taylor versus Amanda Serrano three the trilogy fight. Absolute legends. Katie's putting her super lightweight belt on the line and you know Serrano's bringing the heat. But don't sleep on the co main. Alicia the Bomb Baumgartner explosive power is taking on the undefeated WBA interim championship, Jennifer Miranda. That one's going to be fireworks. If you've Never bet with DraftKings, it's super simple. Just pick who you think is going to win. That's it. Easy. And check this out. If you're new to DraftKings, throw down five bucks and boom, you get 150 in bonus bets instantly. It's wild. Download the DraftKings sportsbook app right now and use promo code HOOPS. That's H O O P S. That's code hoops for new customers to get $150 in bonus bets instantly. When you bet just five bucks only on DraftKings, the crown is yours. GAMBLING PROBLEM. Call 1-800-GAMBLER in New York. Call 877-8-HOPENY or text HOPENY to 467-369 in Connecticut. Help is available for problem gambling. Call 888-789-7777 or visit ccpg.org Please play responsibly on behalf of Boothill Casino and Resort in Kansas. 21 plus. Age and eligibility varies by jurisdiction. Void. In Ontario, bonus bets expire seven days after issuance. For additional terms and responsible gaming resources, see DKNG Co Audio. All right, welcome to Hoops tonight here at the Volume. Happy Saturday, everybody. Hope all of you guys are having a great weekend. We are here at the Sirius XM studios at the Wynn in Las Vegas. Shout out to the guys from Sirius xm. They're taking great care of us. My good friend Adam, who I got to meet in person in Denver a couple weeks ago, who I was stunned as I came over to your house for dinner and he opens the door and he's like every bit as tall as me, if not taller. And I'm like, oh my God. Like, because we've just seen each other on Zoom Calls all these times. But I appreciate you taking the time to come hang out. Adam Mars does dmvr. Big Nuggets guy also does a bunch of stuff for that company and they're building a really cool product that covers the league on a team specific level. And before we talk any nuggets, Adam, there was a story this morning that came out on espn. There's some frustrations, some drama brewing in Los Angeles. What's your take on this whole situation with LeBron and the Lakers?
- [04:55]
Host
What a predictable mess we're in. Honestly, like this Lakers, LeBron era has, it's been longer than expected in, in many ways, just because LeBron keeps playing. He's played there, I think, more consistently. Right. More years in a row than anywhere else in his career. It was almost always going to end bad. And when the Luca trade happened, clearly the team's moving on. So there's this weirdness between what do they owe LeBron? And because he hasn't been there his whole career, it feels inevitable that they get to this place where it's, hey, man, our future doesn't involve you. And so for us to sort of mold ourselves to fit you, you know, would slow us down for after you're gone. So it's from part of me looks at this and says, I get what the Lakers are doing. It sucks. You'd like to be able to send a guy off after all he did, but in my opinion, this is not at all surprising. It's unfortunate for LeBron. And here he is on the other side of some of what he's been on his whole career, putting pressure on an order to do his bidding. The Lakers are saying, hey, we're not considering you. I don't know, it's kind of funny to me.
- [05:52]
Adam
Yeah, you know, I, I see multiple angles here because I, I totally think it's reasonable to look at LeBron and be like, yo, dude, we can't go all in on this particular season. That's too much to ask. With the big picture potential this group has. We're trying to lock Luka up long term. If we go after, let's say an Andrew Wiggins, for instance, and they tried to include a first round pick there, all of a sudden you're handicapping your ability to make a move down the line. Andrew's 30. There's some downsides there in terms of him being a depreciating asset. I think where I see a little bit more of a LeBron, like I get defensive of LeBron is the contract side of it. Because, like, I don't think LeBron is expecting the Lakers to like trade dalton in a first for a, like a 33 year old win. Now vet, I don't, I don't think LeBron's that unreasonable. I think where he is frustrated is like he was sixth in MVP voting. He was second team all NBA. Even after he Got hurt when he came back, he was still playing in that like, you know, 11th to 15th best player in the league type of level at that point in time. And I think he looks at it and he goes like, James Harden just signed a new two year deal. Like, why is it that I am being like hand strung on just wanting a one plus one like he always wants. And he feels like he deserves. I think he feels like as a basketball player he deserves a one plus one and I kind of side with him on that.
- [07:14]
Host
They clearly spiritually are trying to move on, I think is what it looks like. And I think the big question is just how close are they? Because you're right, LeBron is still great. I don't know if he can be great for 82 plus four rounds. That's the big question. Luka's obviously great. You're 80, 90% the way there's. They do need to add a lot of depth. Could they have done that this off season? I would say no. But I know a team that did add a lot of depth with no assets or resources this summer. So maybe it is possible. That's of course I'm referencing the Denver Nuggets. So maybe it was possible. Because in today's NBA, I think everybody is trying to make these like four or five year plans, or at least that's been the status quo for the last several years. I think four or five year plans are out the window. And so the Lakers with their decision making with LeBron almost feels like, yeah, but we got to set ourselves up for years down the line. Maybe they'll be right about that. And maybe LeBron is just too much for you to overcome in your planning? But I look at it, I mean, I do understand what you're saying. Is it realistic that they could have built a contender, given him a one plus one and said, yes, but we're going to do this for two years and try to happen. Maybe, probably not. Maybe you owed it to him. It's a tough one, man. They just clearly, I think are spiritually moved on from him.
- [08:16]
Adam
Well, and that's my thing is like, I feel like if you give him a one plus one, you know, he's certainly going to be worth the money the first year as a player. Like just ensure in terms of sheer production, like 60 games of LeBron plus the playoffs is still better than a lot of dudes who are making 50 million, 100. Okay, like Jalen Brown made 50 million for a team that won the championship last year. Like Carl Anthony Towns is going to make $50 million. Like is there, there are a lot of players around the league that LeBron is just a better basketball player then that are, that, that provide more winning impact at a, at that salary number. So I, I sympathize with him in that specific regard. However, I do think you're onto something. I think this is a bigger picture, like philosophical. We want to clean slate not just from LeBron, but from the entire era right from when Jeanie Buss owned the team. We're going to, we're going to behave like one of the higher spending, more sophisticated teams in the NBA. We're going to invest more in all of these specific areas where the Lakers organization was not investing the right amount of money. And I think, I think they're just viewing LeBron as like getting him out the door is almost just like a, a complete culture shift for the team moving forward. And I think, I think he's just a little offended by that.
- [09:21]
Host
Well, it's also power though. It's power and it's leverage. And LeBron has always had power and leverage. Impressed it. One plus one is yes, we'll continue to allow you to have that saying, hey, this is the last year that's like you had no longer have this. You want to be part of the team here, you're part of the team this year, but going beyond this, you have no leverage or power. And whether that's the right move or not, again I just. The Lakers are spiritually moving on from it and that's what that signals to me.
- [09:44]
Adam
Okay, so before, before we move on to some Nuggets, I'm going to put you on the spot about the Lakers in the West. So we have this top tier, the three teams, and we're not going to put them in any particular order, right. But Oklahoma City, Houston and Denver and then I think there's a little drop off. But we have like Golden State in this mix. We have the Lakers in this mix. We have Minnesota in this mix. There's the Clippers in this mix. San Antonio could theoretically be in this mix, but there's that group of teams. Is there a particular team in that mix? As a Nuggets, as a person who covers the Nuggets that you view as more dangerous to be a threat out of that tier.
- [10:16]
Host
What's interesting about that group to me is you have two teams. Minnesota, who's had Denver's number, you know, for the last handful of years with multiple bigs. And then look what the Clippers just did. Norman Powell had an Incredible year for them. They lose him, willing to lose him, but they bolster their front court with Collins and Lopez and I, and I just look at those moves and I go, that's a Denver Nuggets move. I don't know who that's for. I mean, there are the Houstons, Minnesota's, perhaps, that you're going to need that depth or even just getting through the regular season. You want to guys come in and out of the lineup. You want to have somebody there. But I look at that and I go in the playoffs and I say, okay, Zubots guarded Jokic really well, but Yolk still overcame it, still got him through that series. But now they have 48 minutes of at least one big, if not two. And so to me, I think the Clippers now move into that category. The only difference is the Clippers nailed this season. They were healthy, everything. They were healthy going into the playoffs. Can they do that again? I doubt it. But if they are healthy, I would say Clippers and Minnesota, those are the two.
- [11:13]
Adam
It was also the first year Kawhi didn't look like a world beater in the postseason. Because if we remember in those other years when he, when he would get hurt, like for the few games that he'd be playing, he looked like, it's like, oh my God, he might be be better than KD in this series. Like, oh my God, he might be better than this guy or that guy.
- [11:26]
Host
Like he had that one game. Do you remember? What was it, like 17 and 19 or something? He had the one game he didn't miss any shot.
- [11:31]
Adam
Yeah, he had the one, he had the one really good game in the first round. But other than that, he was, he just didn't look as indomitable. And some of that too is a credit to Aaron Gordon and just the job that he does. But yeah, the Clippers are an interesting one for me. It's the ball handling shortcoming there. Like, I, I, I like that team a lot if they do get Bradley Beal. But without Bradley Beal, I look at it as like, okay, what if Kawhi does play 35 games again? It's a lot of James Harden at that point. Okay, let's talk some Denver Nuggets. So as we zoom out from the off season, they trade Michael Porter Jr. And an unprotected first round pick for Cam Johnson, a move that I absolutely loved. We're going to get into that a lot. They signed Bruce Brown to one year deal. They signed Tim Hardaway Jr. And they trade Darius Arch for Jonas Valanchunas, a backup center. You also have the potential for Darren Holmans to come back from his Achilles injury and potentially be an alternative big slash, a too big kind of option that they can look at. So a significant influx in talent. And the first thing that I thought about when I saw this was just the ability of Jokic to elevate and maximize offensive talent. And I think Cam Johnson is just a better player than Michael Porter Jr. Tim Hardaway Jr. To me as a movement off screen scorer is such a perfect fit alongside Nikola Jokic. Bruce Brown has demonstrated a fit in this matchup. I was you shared this clip and I when I saw made me think of just like what a testament it is to Nicole Jokic and just what an all time great offensive player. I've said this before on my show. I believe he's the greatest offensive player I've ever seen Tate with, I think it was old man of the three, asks Cam Johnson and Tim Hardaway Jr. Like, what do you guys think about the prospect of playing with Nicole Jokic? And both dudes just started cheesing like, like right away simultaneously, like not influenced by each other. They both just get actively excited. Is that literally what you were feeling this entire summer as all this was taking shape?
- [13:37]
Host
I mean, it happened so quickly. To be honest with you. I thought we were joking over on the DNVR show where we said what would par be for the offse? I was like, all right, maybe they add canard, Luke canard, Bruce Brown. That's par. Anything better than that. This is way better than that. And it all happened in 48 hours. And here's how I would put it with Cam Johnson. And actually Tim Hardaway Jr. Is one of the guys I was trying to think of who's going to be the biggest winner from this. And it might be Tim Hardaway Jr. But here's what I'll say about Jokic. Forget talent. He's never played with an all star, all defensive player, all NBA guy. Some of that is by design, not all of it, but some of that is when you play Jokic, his style, everything goes through him. Some guys are so much better at it because the skill you need there, in addition to ball handling and shooting and whatever you specialize in, it's the ability to read the court.
- [14:20]
Adam
Yep.
- [14:20]
Host
And even if you go back and watch when the Nuggets made their title run, Michael Porter was a huge part of that. But there were games, including in the finals where Bruce Brown closed. And the reason he closed it was we have to collectively solve whatever the defense is throwing at us right now. And KCP could do it, Jamal Murray could do it, Aaron Gordon could do it. Michael Porter can make shots, but he can't always think on the fly. I think Cam Johnson, among your elite role playing shooters is as good as anyone at. Okay, what are they trying to do? What are we trying to do? Read it on the fly. So I think it is a perfect fit for Denver. I think Cam Johnson is a perfect. Everything you got with Michael Porter, plus everything you wished you got from him but didn't. And then even the ball handling like he was even been in Brooklyn these last couple years and you know, we're old player, low usage. Guy gets to Brooklyn this last year and a half and they say, hey, expand a little bit, attack. He's so good at it. Off the dribble, handoff, off the pick and roll and good at it in the exact way that I think is important for playing with Jokic. Not eight dribbles, not nine dribbles. It's I'm coming off the handoff and I'm not open. So how do I extend this quarter advantage into the next thing? He's so good at it. I think it's going to be a seamless fit and it's why I'm so high on the Nuggets and so excited. I think Jokic looks at this and says, this is like if you put in a lab, you put together a bunch of guys that I want to play with. This is the group.
- [15:38]
Adam
Is this the best team that Nikola Jokic has ever played with?
- [15:41]
Host
I actually asked somebody on the Nuggets staff this question and they said, I think so. But I also know that the west is better than it was when we won the title. And so I think yes. I mean, we'll have to see it on paper. Bruce Brown knows how to play this style. That's six. I think Denver has had six guys who could play this style before. I think Tim Hardaway Jr. You mentioned him earlier. Great off the ball, off ball, coming off screens, gets his feet set, he can knock down the shots. He's not a great like ISO scorer. One or two dribbles though.
- [16:10]
Adam
Yeah.
- [16:11]
Host
It's almost like his limitations feed into what you want because you don't want a guy taking three, four dribbles come off. If you need to take one or two to get it to extend the advantage, do it. So I think he's going to have a great year because he fits as well. And then you got the valentunas piece of this, which is, you know, a little bit of a wild card, but they've never had a backup center of his caliber. So I would say that gives me eight guys that I really feel confidence in. I've only ever had confidence in six. So, yes, I think this is the best team.
- [16:35]
Adam
Yeah, you know, I, I, the, the part, the point you're making about, like, interchangeability is, is really important. And I think like, a lot of it with Bruce Brown was just as much about Michael Porter Jr. And his shortcomings as it was about Bruce Brown and his strengths. And like, you know, Michael Porter Jr. Had some utility, his ability to be like a secondary rim protector, slash defensive rebounder, gave some flexibility for Denver to use Aaron Gordon as a perimeter defender. And that was the one. Like, if someone asked me, like, what's. What is Michael Porter Jr. Better at than Cam Johnson? That's what I would say I'd be like, secondary rim protection, defensive rebounding. Like, those are the two things that I think that if you wanted to say, like, straight up standstill, wide open, three point shooting, he's probably at the same level, if not maybe a little higher because he's had some, I think.
- [17:18]
Host
A little higher, but that's such a low part of shooting and.
- [17:21]
Adam
Yeah, and how many of those are you really getting? How many of these, like, wide open catch and shoot threes are you really getting? Right. And so Cam Johnson, to me, like, Cam is not a guy that I would feel comfortable with guarding the other team's best player in four rounds, but I do think he's a guy you can deploy on the second best perimeter defender or perimeter initiator on the other team. And so I think that kind of puts Aaron Gordon in a situation. And you and I were actually texting about this shortly after the deal. Like, it's, it allows Aaron Gordon to remain in the backline, which I actually think is better for him with the mileage that he has on his body now too. Like, I, I want him by the rim rather than out chasing guys around on the perimeter. But it also opens up this door to where, like, I think, I think Adelman will be able to choose between Cam and Bruce based solely on their strengths and not be hamstrung where it's like, MPJ is not in this matchup. MPJ is struggling with the physicality in Minnesota. MPJ is struggling with this instead. I think he's going to have, like, legitimate options that he can go to.
- [18:18]
Host
I love the way you frame this because first of all, Your point about the defensive end was, I think you were the first one on that, and I think it's very accurate that it allows Aaron Gordon to be in the right spot. But what you just said is interesting. Denver would go with, oh, this is the better option, but I think now they can go to, this is the right option. It's not. Yeah, like, it's the better of two evils. It's. No, this is the tool we need for this moment. And so we'll go with Bruce or we'll go with Tim Hardaway, or we'll go with Cam Johnson or whatever it is. And the nice thing about Bruce Brown, you know, because a lot of people ask me, why has he been so bad, you know, over these last couple years? He is really good at versatility, which is a weird thing to say, but if you don't need that and you're like, no, we need a shooting guard, it's like, well, he's an okay shooting guard. He can do some stuff, but he can play the one, he could play the two, he can play the three, and he could even play the four. I mean, he's one of the rare examples of a guy his size that plays the four at a pretty good level. And Denver needs that. Because to your point, you might need Christian Brown, Cam and Bruce. You might need Bruce, Cam and Aaron Gordon. Any combination of those guys, you can throw them in and it was proven that's what they did in that title run. And he could just plug whatever hole it is. So I. I agree. I don't think any longer. You have to pick the best of bad options. You actually have, in theory, good options for just about everything.
- [19:31]
Adam
So specifically with Cam, I think one of the other elements to this is I think he is, like, legitimately a full tier, if not two tiers ahead of Michael Porter Jr. As, like an off the dribble shot creator. He's got a. A much higher capability of generating separation off the dribble in, like, rescue possession situations. He's got a good sidestep three going both directions or step back, three going to his left. He's got, like, just a little bit more of like a bag, for lack of a better term, in terms of being able to create his own shot. There was this idea that Michael Porter Jr. Could scale up his offense alongside Jokic in certain matchups, like if Jamal Murray was out or anything along those lines. And I think that that was true to an extent, but it felt very matchup or like matchup dependent. It depended on, like, the type of coverage he was facing, the type of perimeter defender he was on. I think that Cam is going to give them a substantially higher floor offensively because of the different options that they can go to. Like Aaron Gordon has developed into a nice little low post, low post option. As a shot creator. I, I like obviously Jamal, Jamal Murray with bench units has been a switch attacker. Actually we're going to talk about it in a minute, but Yonas Valentunas I think is going to unlock a little bit of some of the, the first team offense with the second team, which I think is going to be some, you know, schemes, scheme consistency there. But Cam Johnson just gives you guys an entirely different entry point on offense that didn't exist in the past. And I think that that's just going to add an entirely different element. Like. So let me just ask you this. Do you think Cam changes the way Denver plays at all on either ends, on either end of the floor?
- [21:00]
Host
100%. I'll go further. I think it's actually significant and I'll even disagree with you with what you said about Michael Porter and this is no knock on him. I think he's a great player and he had the quote about. I feel like my game plateaued and I'm excited. I hope he's right about that, honestly. And I'm not trying to, I'm not trying to like cloud on the guy. I hope he's right about that because I like Michael Porter. But, but he actually has been a pretty robust creator, like individual creator. And you were saying there's matchups. I don't know if I agree with that because I don't know if there were guys where you're like, oh, he has a size advantage. Throw him into the post. He wasn't very efficient at that. Oh, you have a slow footed guy. Let's clear out and give him space. I don't know that he was great at that. What's great about Cam Johnson is yes, it changes the way they play because they have Christian Brown who actually got a lot better as the season went on and over the years, over his three years in the NBA at just being able to take these 1 and 2 dribble. We run a handoff, nothing's there. Turn a half step advantage into a full step advantage and then move the ball to get everybody into rotation, he can do that. Aaron Gordon's phenomenal at it. And Cam Johnson I think is. This is the thing from going through the tape and watching, you know, over the last week I've been watching A lot of him in this last year. He's actually really good at it. And in Brooklyn they gave him a lot of freedom to say, we're running pick and roll. It's probably, if it gets you wide open, great. But it's probably not, do something with it. Get the guy on your hip and do something with it. And he was remarkable at not flashy, not doing crazy things, but he was remarkably good at just reading the court and figuring out which way to go to get shots off. So now I look at it and I say your bread and butter is Murray and Jokic. Aaron Gordon knows what to do to keep the ball moving and turn these advantages into big advantages. Christian Brown's getting better. Cam Johnson's probably the best third option of that that Denver's ever had and probably even the second option behind Jamal Murray. So I think, yes, Denver, I think the ball is going to be popping this year. I think their offense, when it finds its flow, is going to be incredible. And so I'm really high on that starting five. I just think it's the most. We call it Jokic ball. Keep the ball moving, nobody slow it down. Reset, no resets. Just keep going into the next action. They have five guys that can do that.
- [22:55]
Adam
It's going to be so beautiful. I'm particularly excited. Cam, I think too, is a guy that we has developed a lot since he left Phoenix and I think his reputation is something that is a little bit misunderstood around the league. This is a guy who showed real on ball chops both offensively and defensively over the course of the last year and a half. A couple of like kind of like smaller questions on the fringe of the roster and then I want to kind of zoom out and look bigger picture with the league. What are you hearing about the Jonas Valentuna situation? Is he going to be a Denver Nugget?
- [23:24]
Host
I think he will be on the Denver Nuggets roster. I actually think that it'll be resolved relatively shortly. And a lot of this has to do with Denver holds the cards here. I mean, Denver can force him to do what they want. You know, how much of a fight is he going to put up? I think he wants to be in Denver for basketball reasons. You know, I think he. I've heard some people say he doesn't want to be a backup or backing up. Jokic is so tough. I don't think it has anything to do with those things. I think being part of a winning culture is great. He's bounced around the league a lot and I Think it's been tough on him, and I think he sees stability over there. Denver can't offer him that, but they do hold the cards, and I do think they'll be able to talk him into, hey, look, this is going to be a fun year. This isn't Memphis, this isn't Washington, this isn't New Orleans.
- [24:03]
Adam
We like each other.
- [24:03]
Host
We like each other. You know, Justin Holiday had this great quote the year he was here, which was 2024, and he said this being here this year made me believe in basketball again because he was a journeyman and there was a lot of teams. And I hear this from a lot of people. There's a lot of unserious teams and organizations, and you go there and if you're not part of the toxic culture or whatever that's going on here, you're just like, I'm in a loony bin. People that go to Denver, not all of them, but the people that go to the Denver that just want a good, stable culture, they find it there. And I think Valentunas will find it there as well. They'll talk them into it. But at the end of the day, with Valanchunas on the roster, I put Denver in tier one. And I put them not like one B or, you know, number two or number three. I put them right there with whoever you think is best in the NBA. I put them there without Valentunas. They have the same problem they always have, which is every second Jokic is on the court, we're going to be hemorrhaging points. So he's essential to their title odds. And I think that's the reason that they're going to say, sorry, man, we can't budge on this.
- [25:01]
Adam
So before we look at where they rank at the top of the league, because I am fascinated by that concept, I have a couple more small ones centering around Jonas Valentunas with Day Ron Holmes. Do you view him as a guy that will potentially threaten Jonas and his backup spot, or do you view him as more of like a guy who's going to be in two big looks as essentially an oversized four?
- [25:23]
Host
I cannot imagine him overtaking Valentunas. I mean, for one, just the size. He's not that big of a guy. I mean, he's a young guy, so he's still filling out. He actually, I think it did really good work over the last four months or so, getting his body bigger than what it was. But Valis is a seven footer with, you know, broad shoulders, big, big thick guy. So number one? No, absolutely not. But the second part is I'm not sure he'll be in the rotation. You know, he'll compete with Zeke Naji for backup power forward. But Denver also can play Cam Johnson at power forward. They can play Bruce Brown at that spot, they can play Peyton Watson at that spot and move other people into the guard. So to me, Daron Holmes doesn't only have to beat out Zeke Najee but or Aaron Gordon stagger, whoever it is. But then you have to beat out all the other guys that you can just play small. So I like him. I think it'd be putting too much pressure on him to expect him to be a part of the rotation. I think he'll get minutes just by 82 game season. But my expectation is that this will be a true like training wheels year for him and he won't be a meaningful part of their season.
- [26:19]
Adam
Yeah, it's an important thing to remember. He's literally not played NBA basketball before so there could be an adjustment there. One of the things I'm specifically excited about with Jonas Valentina is we talked about this a little bit earlier, we hinted at it but like is the scheme consistency. So one of the things I've noticed consistently with Denver over the years is that when they go to their bench because they haven't had a good backup center option, the majority of the time they've gone smaller and it's, you know, maybe it's Ignazi, maybe it's Aaron Gordon at the 5, but they just go to a switching defense and then on the offensive end of the floor the opponent, because they're going against a bunch of perimeter players also ends up switching everything and then it kind of just devolves into this like yoke or excuse me, Murray and Gordon like picking on matchups. It might be Gordon attacking out of the post, it might be Jamal taking a big out on the perimeter or a smaller guard to the post and just working a lot of ISO against switches. I think Jonas will give them the ability to essentially have scheme consistency from the starting group to the bench. Essentially meaning Jonas can run the same version of the drop coverage that Nicole Jokic does up at the level or deeper drop depending on the matchup. And then I think he's going to allow them to continue to run their a lot of their like 5 out type of attack with a dribble handoff fulcrum at the top of the key in the form of Jonas. And Jonas is capable of popping the way that Jokic is in ball screens. Jonas is Capable of like. Like he's got a. A big, A backup big who can't handle him on the block. We're going to toss him the ball and he's going to be able to go to work there. And so in terms of all the versatility we were discussing earlier, now the Nuggets will have small ball looks.
- [27:47]
Host
Yeah.
- [27:47]
Adam
And the ability to maintain some schemes consistency when they go to the bench.
- [27:53]
Host
You might be right about that. I think Valanchunas is good at those things. Maybe he's better than we've seen. And when you have a team that's, you know, you're not. If a guy is a good at a thing, do you alter your offense to run that style? Whereas Denver already runs that style. So if he can do it, then of course we'll allow him to expand on that. So it's interesting David Adelman said this yesterday on the broadcast. So I think you're onto it. Even though to me it seems a little bit foreign. David Adelman said that exact thing. He reminds me of Jokic. He'll be able to play like Jokic with the second unit. And it will be interesting if you knew that. You know what's interesting? I'm taking this a little bit of a different direction, but just for a little funnier. I don't know if people know this, but Serbia, well, really Yugoslavia and then Serbia and then Lithuania have a nice history. I mean it's a 30 year history. You're really going back because the breakup of Yugoslavia and this breakup of the Soviet Union happened at similar times. And so you get this like golden era of Serbian basketball at the exact same time as the golden era of the Soviet Union, the Lithuanian basketball. And they had a nice rivalry. And who did they have? Vladi Divat, Arvidus Sabonis, two all time great European centers who just happened to be hitting their peak at the same time and played similar styles more or less. And so there's always been a nice rivalry between these two countries. I say nice. I don't know if they would say it's nice. I think it's been actually contentious. But what's cool about it is those are two basketball nations in Europe. Those are the two in my opinion. I mean Italy, if you go back even further, but. And then France, Spain, they've had their different eras, but if you go back a hundred years and just say, okay, those countries really adapted basketball and now you got two of the best of their, you know, own countries now on the same team. And I'm just Curious if it brings out the best of them in that way. So your point about Valentunas can play like Jokic. I almost wonder if it's like, hey, Lithuania and Serbia, here we are. Let's both, you know, kind of play this style and get things going.
- [29:40]
Adam
Yeah. Can Yogic bring the best out of him? Correct. Exactly. No. And, and honestly, like, I, I'm not trying to sit here and say like, Jonas can do a Jokic impression. That's not at all what I mean. It's more just like there scheme consistency is, is good in terms of being able to run certain types of sets, but then also there's a lower bar with the bench groups. Like, Jonas will also be going against lesser talent. And that's really the thing is, like, can he run a reasonable facsimile of what Jokic does against lesser talent and still have some impact? And I do think that he has the potential to do that. And again, like, if there's a specific set that's getting Jamal good looks because of the matchup and the scheme that they're running, you can run that with Jonas in a bench group and still have some success there and some teams.
- [30:23]
Host
As backup center is Trey Lyles.
- [30:27]
Adam
You just handle the ball. Yeah.
- [30:28]
Host
You're like, hey, all right. Sorry, you're giving up £60. Good luck down there.
- [30:31]
Adam
Exactly. Exactly. A couple other small ones. Any chance the Nuggets bring Russell Westbrook back?
- [30:37]
Host
I don't think so. I don't see it.
- [30:39]
Adam
Is it more of like, we have too much guard depth now, or is it like, we had the Russ experience and we're done with it?
- [30:45]
Host
I, I. What I think it is is that Russ is a loud player. Denver had a shallow bench last year, so you have a guy who makes up the entire personality of your second unit. That's good because you didn't have anything else. They do have personality now. They do want continuity. Russ changes that. He changes the entire dynamic. And then on top of that, and I know Russ fans, I enjoyed Russ. I thought he was phenomenal this last year. People are going to get mad at me for saying that. I look at this year, every team has one guy who's sort of like the oddball. The odd character. Yeah, but he's the curveball to the character of the locker room. I don't think Denver has that this year. Maybe Peyton Watson, he gets an extension this year. We'll see. He's kind of still coming into his own, but I look at that, I go, russ isn't a curveball. Good good and bad. I think Denver looks at it and says there's 9, 10, 11 guys that can all play in any given night and they all want the same thing and are aiming for the same thing. You bring Russ in, it's like, okay, everybody changed because now we have a different personality, a different style. I think they enjoyed their Russ experience and I think they're done with it.
- [31:39]
Adam
They did get the most out of him, out of anybody post primary ball handler Russell Westbrook. The I think also like just in general last year you guys were in a different position. I remember you came on the show and we talked before the season and you like straight up said before the season you're like, I don't think we can win the title this year.
- [31:54]
Host
Yeah.
- [31:54]
Adam
And you guys actually ended up overachieving and getting closer to it than we thought. You know, but like last year, you guys were in a situation where high risk, high reward options were like something you had to consider. This year we just talked about earlier, this might be the best team Nikola Jokic has ever played with. So, like, there's no need to take a high risk, high reward option in this particular situation. Last question before we zoom out and start talking about the rest of the West. There has been a narrative surrounding the team, especially with the coaching change and the idea that the young players were not being given enough of a leash to show what they can do. We talked about how two playoff runs ago, Peyton Watson was like playing extensively down the stretch of the regular season and then was just like literally not used against a Minnesota Timberwolves team. That was huge and athletic and you might have seen some utility in your big athletic forward that could help the situation. So with the influx of guys like Bruce Brown, Tim Hardaway Jr. Even the at the forward spot with the Duron Holmes, are you worried at all about this potentially taking minutes away from guys like Jalen Pickett, Julian Strother, Peyton Watson and not affecting their development?
- [33:05]
Host
Well, let's put Pickett to the side because I just don't know how much I love the guy. I'm the biggest Jalen Pickett fan in the world, but I just don't know if he's in the cards for the Nuggets. Strother and Peyton Watson and Daron Holmes, I guess you can add him there. Those are the three guys, but I'm not worried about it because Denver had relied on those guys to hit in years past and they don't now. Tim Hardaway Jr. Is there, Bruce Brown's there. Valentunas is There, if those guys don't hit, you're fine. The problem for me, because it's like, did they play the young guys? Would they have won? I don't think so. But here's what happened. Calvin Booth was very, very specific about what the plan was. We have drafted these young guys because we have to and we might suffer. He even came out and said in the title defense year, it's going to be one of our worst years. I don't know if we're going to defend the title this year, but we have to use it as an investment. The Nuggets didn't invest in it. And then it was like, well, we don't have the flexibility now because. And then last year they signed Zeke Najee to that. That contract extension. Or actually at the same time they signed him and it was like, is he an 8 million a year player? No, but let's get him there so we could trade him. That's our only middle of the road contract. He never played. So I think what my problem was wasn't play the young guys. They're good. They're going to be good. It's. The plan requires those guys to at least be tradable.
- [34:14]
Adam
Yeah.
- [34:14]
Host
And they weren't even given a chance. They weren't tradable and you didn't win. So it was like to me, you lost on both fronts.
- [34:20]
Adam
So Jalen Pickett, obviously, as we talked about most likely going to be out of the rotation, we talk about Julian Strother and Peyton Watson. Do you think one of. Do you think Julian gets squeezed in this situation?
- [34:30]
Host
So Julian is competing with Tim Hardaway Jr. And they are kind of similar players. Yeah, Tim Hardaway Jr. I think obviously a veteran, more consistent, even though he's. That's funny for a veteran. He's not the most consistent player. I think he will be when he plays with Jokic. But Julian Strother is competing with him. I think the challenge David Adelman has and by the way, the biggest X factor to me, outside of Jamal Murray's just health and everything else, which is always an X factor. Will he be in shape? All that? David Adelman, we saw him in a playoff run. Awesome. That's different from managing an 82 game season. Especially when you talk about 10, 11 guys who could play rotation. How do you manage that? That's its own sort of challenge of leadership. But to me, Julian Strother is competing with Tim Hardaway Jr. And I think Tim Hardaway Jr. Will have a leg up in it. Adelman's challenge Will be. How do you win on both fronts? Tim Hardaway Jr. Plays, but where do you find minutes for Julian Strother so that he's not just sitting on the bench for months on end?
- [35:22]
Adam
And I wonder if it ends up being because of how deep they are at other position groups. And with Cam Johnson, I wonder if they can buy Jamal Murray more days off, which could be a thing that ends up, you know, allowing for more opportunity for guys like Julian to play. Like, you could argue that with Jamal every time there's three games in four nights. You just give him a night.
- [35:39]
Host
You know, you almost have to honestly with him. But with Peyton Watson, though, circling back to him, he's the one guy I look at. If there's one thing that concerns me about Denver, it's this. Peyton Watson is the only defensive player on the bench. Bruce Brown can defend, but I don't know if he's a stopper. Tim Hardaway Jr isn't. Julian Strother isn't. Valentunas isn't. And you have Christian Brown, who's very good against specific types of defenders. And you have Aaron Gordon, who's good. There's a gap in there that is for Peyton Watson. He has to become playoff playable for them so that they have all options. They're versatile enough to guard everybody. And then there's some teams that you need all three of them out there because you. You know that you have a lot of offense that you have to cover. So to me, he's going to start out as a guy. He's the one guy that I think has to play through good and bad games and play every single night because he has to get to the point where Denver can rely on him in the postseason.
- [36:30]
Adam
Yeah, he could be an interesting look if you. If you've. I mean, I actually. I think Christian Brown played really well. I thought he. At. In. In big spots in. In important moments in the series, he figured out how to at least be somewhat effective against Shea at times. I actually want to talk a little bit about Denver's defense in a second in the. In that playoff run because I thought it was fascinating. But Cam, I think, could play the two, and so you could see a universe, especially with how well Aaron Gordon shot the ball where, like, if you needed to go super big and athletic, you could theoretically play a couple of those forwards alongside Jokic with the defense. I thought it was really fascinating that up until. I can't remember which game it was of the finals, but there was a point in the finals before, I think it was before they beat the hell out of him in Game 6, before Indiana beat up OKC, where Denver had logged the best defensive rating out of any team against Oklahoma City. If you had to explain in 60 seconds what how Denver managed to get as many stops against Oklahoma City in that series, how would you break it down?
- [37:29]
Host
Well, here's the thing and well, it's funny that you mentioned Kawhi Leonard not having a great series because what Jokic specifically. I mean, Jokic is your anchor on defense and that he has limitations, but I always said he's actually a phenomenal defender at a lot of things. He's really bad at the most core thing, which is spread pick and roll, especially if you can put shooters out there. Kawhi Leonard doesn't like the spread pick and roll. James Harden did, and he had some really nice games. Jokic can guard guys that are trying to ISO on the. On the elbow. He's just smart. He knows how to cut off the angles and do what you do. Oklahoma City is similar in this way. They do have a good pick and roll. But what Denver really did was they threw zones out there.
- [38:02]
Adam
Yep.
- [38:03]
Host
And David Adelman, well, actually, I should say Andrew Munson, who's coaching the summer league team, one of the assistants within the lead up to summer league, said adelman wants us experimenting with a lot of things this summer league because we're working on some new identities next year. And I pride him on it. Hey, what is that? What is that? What is that? And he finally let go. Well, we're going to play a lot of zone in summer league. And I thought, man, they ran a lot of zone against Oklahoma City. They didn't do it a whole lot all year, although they did do it against Oklahoma City in the regular season a lot. And then they did it the playoffs.
- [38:31]
Adam
The 2:3 where they doubled Shay every time across half court. That was a fun game. Yeah.
- [38:35]
Host
They weren't the ones that invented. Who was it that invented that style and Denver copied it. But yes, it was. It was. It kind of threw them off. They didn't know what to do in the regular season.
- [38:43]
Adam
140 on them in that game, Something like that.
- [38:44]
Host
Yeah, it was pretty dominant. So Denver went to zone in the playoffs and it was very effective. And I think they looked at that and said, is this less of a gimmick and more of something we can build our identity on going forward? And I'm of two minds about that because one, I do believe in. I remember I used to do a show with George Carl and he was so big about. Teams aren't running zone enough. If I was coaching today, I would be running a lot of zone. A lot of zone. And George Carl, whatever you think of him, very good forward thinker about where things are going. He always was. So Denver's gonna. I think they use that, and I'm excited for them to experiment with it. But also, 82 Games is a long time to scout. And if they run it all year, I think it worked as a curveball in the playoffs. You run it all year. Is that just all right? Denver's his own team. Here's how we do attack it. I don't know. We'll find out.
- [39:28]
Adam
Yeah, I like if. I think defensive IQ is an underrated element of that part of the floor in the sense that you obviously had Christian Brown and Aaron Gordon, two players that I think are good defenders on the floor. But Jamal's smart and he's a little bit of a defensive playmaker and so is Jokic. And in general, they just were a smarter defense than the other teams that went up against Oklahoma City. And I want to credit Adelman for this, too, because Minnesota and Indiana, their dumb asses went out there and tried to pick up Shea full court, right, which compromised them at the point of attack almost immediately in every single situation. And there was some success that Indiana had with their ball pressure and wearing Shea down and exposing a little bit of a lack of ball handling depth for Oklahoma City. But for the most part, it was like, abundantly clear, especially with Jaden McDaniels, who was just literally looked lost against Shay and in that, in that third round. But I thought Denver went into the series with the appropriate pickup point. The mixing up of coverages, the sagging off and the short closeouts, the passing lane closeouts, they forced Oklahoma City to beat them with their brains. And they didn't lose that series because they didn't get enough stops. They lost that series because in the fourth quarter of game four and in the fourth quarter of game five, nobody showed up offensively other than Jokic. And that ended up being the, the. The. The nail in the coffin. But like, if they get a couple, like if Michael Porter Jr. Misses a couple wide open threes at the top of the key in game five, Jamal Murray misses a wide open three in the right corner in game four in a big spot. The, the. That's the thing that's exciting for me as we look forward. They just have so much more depth offensively in depth in general, to where I don't think they' at the end of games the way that they did. But I thought that they just showed a very intelligent approach defensively to getting stops against that Oklahoma City team. And I just want to give them credit for that because, like, I think it's a proof of concept, so to speak. Because Denver was not just bad defensively to end the season, but like kind of embarrassing for Denver Nuggets basketball to be as bad as they were.
- [41:26]
Host
This is why you're so good at this. I don't mean to compliment you on your own show. This is why you're so good at it, because you get to the heart of something for a tail. You're watching all these teams. You're not a Denver guy, but you're getting to the heart of like a core identity for Denver. And one of what I think it is is they are going to force you to play the game on their terms. And a lot of people think that of Jokic's pace, he's going to slow it down and you're going to have to be at his pace. But you said they were going to make this a mental game. They were going to say, okay, we're not. You're way more athletic, you're way quicker. So we're going to turn this into. How do we turn this into where we're on level footing and now you're going to have a skill advantage, but we're going to make this a slowdown, mental game. And the zone was a part of that, you know, playing low. Shay, Shay. I had this great staff from Mark Campbell who said on pick and rolls, I think he was one of the lowest point guards in terms of where he received screens because he's not a great pull up three point shooting threat. So teams would sink and say, hey, no, you have to pick a screen below the line. Denver did that as well and they mixed in some zone and to me that was their way of saying, take everything out. We're playing this style because it's slow and it's cerebral and we feel like we can beat you. There's so I think that's part of it. And now they have a smarter team than ever. And even in that series, I don't mean to pick on Michael Porter. You have six great possessions in a row and one where you completely screw up and give a layup. That was him all his whole career is that six good possessions, one where you just completely messed up and it's a wide open dunk. I think just take out those wide open dunks take the three or four, you give up a game, erase those and it makes a huge difference on how effective you are defensively.
- [42:57]
Adam
It's the attention to detail when it comes to especially big possessions in crunch time. It's actually the higher floor guys that coaches trust the most. Can I trust you to be in the right spot, not make a mistake so that my star can dictate the terms of what happens? Because like, ultimately it is going to be that guy who ends up determining everything. All right, let's zoom out. Top of the west right now. According to DraftKings, the Denver Nuggets have the third best odds to win the title. Houston is in first. In second place at plus 750. You guys are at plus 800. I think Oklahoma City is right around like plus 250 in that range. I am very tempted to pick Denver as my favorite to win the title. The biggest thing that I keep coming back to is I think separate from anything having to do with on paper talent, I just think they match up extremely well with Oklahoma City. So I'm on the fence. I don't know where I'm going to land. I'll probably decide when we get closer to October. Make the case to me for why Denver should be the team that is favored to win the title.
- [43:54]
Host
Well, first of all, I'm going to start by saying this. I've only once ever picked the Denver Nuggets to win an NBA championship, and that was in 2023. So I'm one for one on Pick it up. Now, I will say, because I heard you say this on a show the other day that you're like, this is a July prediction. We'll have an October. I might make a January, February, March prediction. And I think it's true. Like, we're making predictions. We don't even know if Valentina's is coming over. I think the Nuggets are going to win it this year. I think they have everything that it takes. I. I just have such faith in Jokic's ability. I, I happen to agree with you. I don't know. Ranking guys number one, number two, offense. I don't know. At a certain point you're just saying this is a short list of guys that are so good that you can't. They can solve every problem. Jokic is one of those guys and he's never had a team with this many guys that can contribute to his brain, that can be an extension of what it is that he's trying to do. So I look at that and I Agree with you. I mean, they gave Oklahoma City trouble, and they had the most flawed roster of the last four years, and they still gave him a hard time. I, I, I think they're going to do it again this year if they can be healthy and everything comes together for him. I do think Houston's going to be a great regular season team, and I think they'll be a good playoff team. I'm skeptical about Kevin Durant's ability to make it through four rounds, and I'm just skeptical of the like. Accumulation of talent does not always equal, you know, oh, this is a great team. It's going to have to come together. They might do that. I think he may. Adoke is a great coach defensively. They certainly did it last year. I don't know. I can't see the finish line for Houston the way I can for Denver and then Oklahoma City. We know they're great. I mean, they've already done it. I think that's going to be by far the biggest challenge. But to your point, there's something about their style that I think Denver kind of understands and can compete with, and there's just no solution for Jokic. Hartenstein's great Chad Holmgren, by the way, guarded him for one game before they said, no, we're never doing that again. Not even on switches. Are we putting you there? So I look at that and I just say, you know what, that's going to be a great series if we get to it, but I think Denver might have the pieces to get it done this time.
- [45:42]
Adam
Yeah, I, I keep coming back to a couple different things. Jokic's best player, and I think he's on a tier on it by himself, which I think is a unique advantage in this sort of situation. They are the most experienced team and have, like, the best continuity out of the contenders, like Oklahoma City. Yeah, strangely, like they, they. I also think in general that teams can scale up more on defense in the playoffs than they can scale up on offense. For example, like, a team like a team like Denver is able to approximate a good playoff defense despite no evidence of that during the regular season. But you're never going to see a team on offense be just like, ass all year long on offense and then suddenly just start picking teams apart when they get into the postseason. And so I think that's part of it for me. Like, a team for, like Houston, for instance. Like, I could see Houston, like, if you, if you ask me right now, like, how do, if Houston loses in the playoffs, how does Houston lose? In the playoffs, they can't score. That's what it is. Kevin Durant faces a super physical defender, struggles to get separation as a 37 year old. A player at that point in time and he's just not able to do quite enough. And the defense is still really good, but so did the great offense that they lost to, who scaled up their defense and they ended up having an issue. Oklahoma City to me, still has major offensive warts and experience warts. That's kind of the angle that I see them fitting into. But now you got me all interested. Before we get out of here, I have to just like make the case for you. Why? I think Jokic is the best offensive player that I've ever seen. I think Steph Curry is the best advantage creator I've ever seen in the sense that just his sheer presence on the court creates more openings than any player that I can remember in terms of just like, he just breaks the brain of every defense that he goes against. And guys start making mistakes and jumping out on switches and, and leaving dudes open and there's dunks and layups that they give up. The thing with Steph is Steph was never as reliable as the top guys, as like a key possession late in the game. He needs to get a bucket. The team does switch everything correctly. He just was never as good at that. And there was a little bit more variance being that he's a jump shooter, so he was prone to some cold shooting nights. LeBron to me, was not quite as good of an advantage creator as Steph, but he was still nearly as good of an offensive player because he had the big physicality, the ability to get to his spots. Jokic to me, bridges the gap between both of those guys. He is a top tier historical advantage creator in terms of the ability to break the defense and create all of these openings. He has a similar impact to Steph, where his ability to consistently bring the rim protector out to the perimeter inverts the defense to where now there's less size waiting at the rim for your cutters and your slashers and your closeout attackers and stuff like that. But then he adds to that this. If you let me go one on one and you switched everything properly, I have a shot that I can get to that I'm going to hit 60% of the time and there's no variance. And like, like, even in the games where he played poorly, like game four for instance, down the stretch, he was able to get to the bucket a few times and get, get a couple like make a bull shots for him. And so to me, like he brings the best combination of indomitable on an island scoring but like defense breaking, advantage creation. And that to me like puts him. I just can't ever remember watching a player that had that same impact on a defense.
- [49:01]
Host
You made a great case. I like it. I mean, look, here's how I feel about Jokic. He's the only to the not the only. More so than any other player, including LeBron. There is no defense for him like whatever you do because he has every skill. So every defense is a compromise to something else. And there's a lot of teams where even LeBron in his heyday, it was well, we're going to force him into some mid range, we're going to run him off the line, we're going to protect the paint, we're going to do this or that. Jokic is comfortable with literally everything. The question is he's a team player, he's a, as they called Steph, a collaborative superstar. And so you need the guys around him who can complete the plays because sometimes the right play is to drag things over and then find the open guy. I just don't think he has any weaknesses. I tell people I think he's the best, they say best passing big man of all time. He's an S tier passer. I mean he's the top five passer I think of all time. And then it's not his number one skill. His number one skill is probably his touch from floater zone. Yeah, I mean it's. He's 10 percentage points better than average from that spot and he can get to there anytime. And then the third skill he has that's also probably number one all time or at least on a short list is he has the best hands I've ever seen. Every loose ball, every, every pass, everybody you could throw. I mean this is why Russ was so good with. One of the reasons Russ was so good, he'd throw a 90 mile per hour pass for from me to you or where as close as we are, whip a pass like that and you just would grab it out of nowhere and finish it. So he has three skills to me that he might be number one all time in or at least has a case for it and he can do everything. So it's a strong case. Here's where I disagree or here's where I go different. The, the goat conversation at the greatest or any of those types of things. Basketball's such a diverse game. It's such a wide game that there's so many different ways to dominate. I think there were guys who were more individually, like the thing they did best. There were guys that were better at that than Jokic is at any one thing. So if you had to, if you could press that advantage, it was like, yeah, that's the most dominant thing I've ever seen. And so there, there's that way to win. There's, oh, I can do more different types of winning. And then the last thing is the game is just so different. I mean, this is what makes LeBron so incredible is he came in in 2003. He was on TRL. I saw this on Twitter the other day, which is great. I don't think anybody listening to the show even knows what TRL is. It was a Cable show from 30 years ago.
- [51:13]
Adam
I don't know what TRL is.
- [51:15]
Host
He was on TRL on MTV 25 years ago and he's still playing in the NBA. And he went from those Pistons, spurs era, grind it out. You know, he played with Varajao and at the same time and then he evolved at all these different evolutions and his skill set fits all of it. I think Jokic is standing on the shoulders of giants both from the NBA history, but also from European history. And it's just hard to compare and say what would have a lot of these guys done if they, they. Jokic learned the game from them and then built on top of it in a way that I think is underrated, how much he's added to the game. I mean, Jokic coming into the league and what he's added, even though you don't have another Jokic, the game has changed in how the coaches think about it because of his impact. And so it's so hard to compare guys that didn't have that advantage to stand on his shoulders.
- [52:06]
Adam
Yeah, you know, it's been fascinating. I had a mailbag question the other day where someone was like, why does nobody high volume post up anymore in the NBA? And there's like a chasm like you, if you look at Jokic's post, if you just like sorted all players in the NBA by the number of post ups they run. Joker just on a. It's. It doesn't even look right. He's like off the chart. And I've always, I, I kept, I obviously on the spot, had to come up with an answer. And what I immediately went to was like, NBA defenses are so sophisticated now with their ability to shrink the floor and to make things feel tight on a post up Like, I watched this with Anthony Davis for years. I, I watched Laker fans be like, why don't they force the ball to Anthony? I'll tell you exactly why they didn't force the ball to Anthony Davis. Because he'd get down there and they would load up the strong side and the open man would be in the weak side corner and he was just unable to get the ball there in a way to where he actually had an advantage. He could attack, attack there. And so as a result, like, there's just like I was watching deandre Ayton footage, you know, obviously scouting him for the Lakers. And like, if you watch Ayton's post ups, he just like doesn't know what's happening around elsewhere on the floor while he's down there. And like, Jokic just has that like court awareness level 100 to where like he didn't even have to look to know where help defenders are. And he just is always aware of what's happening around him. And so he can actually abuse size mismatches and take advantage of where the opening is in the defense. In a very sophisticated era of NBA defense. And it just, it to me has been the separator and this is like.
- [53:28]
Host
Some fun because we're both basketball players. So I think you, you might resonate with this. When you're playing not just pickup, but really more structured game and you get the ball in the post, what direction or what kind of move, at least for me, that I'm going to try to attack with has a lot to do with how I'm being guarded and where the help is. Because. And this is what Jokic does every single time. It's okay, I see this guy over here. So I'm going to make the move towards the center of the paint because I want him to be the help guy. And this is what he's doing all the time is like, I'm attacking here. Oh, he's not helping. All right, I got to my spot or I spun the other direction. And that's what he's doing every single time. So when people say they can't post up or these numbers, I always look at it go. This game was straight up. Nobody helped, nobody double. Hilkish would have a 1.9 points per possession on post up. But he's not just going to score, he's going to just read. And he's constantly manipulate. Everything he does is to manipulate somebody else on the court. And it's fun. When you watch it over and over again, you see it more and more. And you're like, this is fun to watch, man. It's just a cat and mouse game with all five guys. And all five guys are kind of sitting there a second behind him going, like, am I doing the right thing? Am I. Wait, Nope. Oh, he was attacking me. My bad.
- [54:29]
Adam
It's so funny because I, in general, over the years, different players resonate with me more or less than others. Like, I have grown to enjoy watching Steph Curry so much. But then, like Shay Gilgis Alexander, for instance, I. It's hard. I don't enjoy watching him play basketball as much. Even Luca is. And I. I'm a believer in Lucas talent. I don't think Luka would derive the same reaction from Tim Hardaway Jr. And Cam Johnson playing with now. They would be like, yeah, we're going to get some open looks, but they're not going to enjoy playing in that system as much because Jokic is very much a collaborative talent in the sense that his success comes in ball and player movement. Whereas for Luka, it comes in pounding the air out of the basketball and passing with four seconds left on the shot clock to an open shooter. And I just. I thought that that that clip that you shared of those guys reacting is just a. Is like the embodiment of the Jokic experience. You watch him and you just smile because it's beautiful basketball.
- [55:24]
Host
I get to participate in it. Not to be the recipient of it. I get to participate in it. And I think for a guy like Tim Hardaway Jr. That especially. I think that's what he's looking forward to. And it's one of the reasons I think he, of everyone is going to benefit, because it's not just stand in the corner. It's, hey, come run some pick and roll with me. I'll read what's going on. I'm going to flip the screen. I'm going to slip it, whatever it is, and it's like you're involved in it.
- [55:44]
Adam
Yeah. Adam, I sincerely appreciate you taking the time. Tell everybody where they can find your work.
- [55:48]
Host
All NBA show with me and Tim Legler. And then D if you're interested in more Nuggets coverage. Five times a week with DNVR Nuggets. We have fun over there and we have some. I think Bruce Brown's going to come on sometime in the next week or two, so we're going to have some cool. Some of the new guys hopping on.
- [56:02]
Adam
That's awesome. I really appreciate you coming on the show, everybody. Thank you so much for supporting us. Shout out to Sirius XM for taking care of us here at the studio at the win. We will be back tomorrow night with some more Summer League reaction. I will see you guys then. What's up guys? As always, I appreciate you for listening to and supporting HOOPS tonight. It would actually be really helpful for us if you guys would take a second and leave a rating and a review. As always, I appreciate you guys supporting us, but if you could take a minute to do that, I'd really appreciate it.
- [56:29]
Narrator
The volume.
- [56:33]
Advertiser
Okay? Have you heard about this? Last year, Degree changed the formula for their Cool Rush deodorant. Their fans rebelled and wanted the old sent back and Degree Listen, that doesn't happen often. They admitted that they effed up and are bringing the original Cool Rush scent back and it's exactly how you remember it. Cool, crisp and fresh. There's a reason it's the number one men's antiperspirant and it's back in Walmart, Target and other stores for under $4. So try it and see what the fuss is about. Head to your local stores to try the OG Cool Rush for yourself.
- [57:06]
Ryan Seacrest
Hey, it's Ryan Seacrest for Albertsons and safeway now through July 15th. Stock up on all your favorite personal care brands and earn four times points to use on later purchases for discounts on groceries or gas. Shop in store or online for items like Pantene Shampoo, Old Spice, Total Body Deodorant, Tampax Pearl, Venus Razors, Head and Shoulder Shampoo, Olay Body Wash and Pantene conditioner and earn four times points. Hurry before these deals are gone. Offer ends July 15th. Restrictions apply. Offers may vary. Visit albertsons or safeway.com for more details.
- [57:36]
Narrator
Every business has an ambition. PayPal Open is the platform designed to help you grow into yours with business loans so you can expand and access to hundreds of millions of PayPal customers worldwide. And your customers can pay all the ways they want with PayPal, Venmo pay later and all major cards so you can focus on scaling up when it's time to get growing. There's one platform for all business PayPal open grow today at paypalopen.com loans subject to a approval in available locations Every day has a to do list, but adding Enjoy Belvita to yours can help you knock out the rest of it. Belveda Breakfast Biscuits are a tasty and convenient breakfast option when paired with low fat yogurt and fruit that provide steady energy all morning while Belvita Energy Snack Bites give you the perfect mid morning refuel. Best part? They both taste great. So make the most out of your morning with a bite of Velveeta. Pick up a pack of Velveeta at your local store today. This is an I Heart podcast.