Hoops Tonight - PISTONS-CAVS GAME 5 REACTION: James Harden & Donovan Mitchell CLUTCH to beat Cade Cunningham

Summary

Podcast Summary: The Herd with Colin Cowherd – "Hoops Tonight - PISTONS-CAVS GAME 5 REACTION"

Date: May 15, 2026
Host: Jason Timpf (with co-host Jackson)
Podcast Network: iHeartPodcasts and The Volume

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Episode Overview

This episode of "Hoops Tonight" takes a deep dive into the dramatic Game 5 of the Eastern Conference Semifinals between the Cleveland Cavaliers and Detroit Pistons. Jason and Jackson break down the tactical elements and pivotal moments of the game, focusing on the performances of stars like James Harden, Donovan Mitchell, and Cade Cunningham. The episode also features thoughtful Q&A segments addressing team-building, player development, and broader NBA issues like draft reform.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Game 5 Tactical Breakdown (02:27 - 17:45)

• Cavs leveraging ball screens for shot quality:
  Jason discusses how Cleveland's ability to generate high-quality catch-and-shoot threes via ball screens was a decisive factor. The Cavs’ shooters thrived off “four on three” opportunities created when the Pistons’ bigs came up to the level of the ball screen.
• Cleveland’s offensive adjustments:
  “If we get the ball into the ball screen and we generate that four on three, we’re getting good clean catch and shoot threes for good shooters.” (03:36 – Jason)
• Pistons’ defensive ceiling:
  The Pistons’ advantage is a “downright frightening” defensive ceiling, fueled by the versatile play of Asar Thompson. Notable sequences included defensive highlight reels and the ability to force turnovers and manufacture runs.
• Decisive moments:
  • Cavs’ composure late gives them the edge.
  • Pistons had a five-minute scoreless stretch from end of regulation to overtime, largely because Cleveland’s defensive adjustments forced non-shooters into big shots.
• Coaching adjustments:
  Jason credits Kenny Atkinson for moving to a two-big lineup late, restricting Detroit drives and offensive boards (13:25).
• On Asar Thompson’s defense:
  “He is quite literally one of the most impressive defensive playmakers in the league… the dude just can make every single defensive play in the books.” (07:35 – Jason)

2. Individual Performances & Player Evaluations

• Donovan Mitchell:
  Struggled against top defender (Asar Thompson), but still hit clutch shots in overtime (11:45).
• James Harden:
  Praised for creating advantages through pick-and-roll and getting key buckets late.
  “Since the fourth quarter of game three, I think his advantage creation, just getting the ball into pick and roll and creating advantage, has been awesome.” (27:53 – Jason)
• Cade Cunningham:
  Strong bounce-back game; when his jumper is falling, “he’s by far the best player in the series.” However, Pistons’ lack of shooting around him limits his impact (23:17).
  “There was a lot of [tight space scoring for Cade] tonight where he’s having to take a lot of tough pull up jump shots because that’s the best shot his team can get.” (24:15 – Jason)
• Max Strus:
  Underrated “winning traits” beyond just being a catch-and-shoot guy—also gritty defensively and good attacking closeouts (20:00–22:45).
• Paul Reed:
  Provided “extra pop” offensively and keyed defensive stops, often preferred over Jalen Duren situationally (30:52–32:54).

3. Crucial Game Swings & Late-Game Situations

• Momentum shifts:
  The episode highlights numerous momentum shifts, such as a late-game offensive rebound by Harden after a missed free throw, poor box-outs, and decisions not to close with the best shooters due to injury or spacing needs.
• On the series' volatility:
  “This series still is going all over the place… It looked like the Pistons were going to win for a long time… then the Cavs… then the Pistons… it’s just very clear what the dynamic is.” (15:58)

4. Q&A & Extra Topics (19:43 – 45:02)

a. Role Player Recognition

• Favorites include Max Strus, Tobias Harris (“role player through and through and he’s scooping his ass off”), Alex Caruso, Isaiah Hartenstein, Jaden McDaniels, and others (37:13–38:39).

b. Building Around Cade Cunningham

• The Pistons must find a true secondary ball handler/scorer.
  “I think it’s a waste to have [Cade] play in a situation where he has to be a tight space scorer… I’d prefer to put him in an environment where he’s surrounded by more shooting.” (24:15)

c. Jalen Duren’s Playoff Struggles & Contract Implications

• Duren’s limited offensive skill in four-on-three situations has reduced his impact and playing time, possibly costing him tens of millions on his next contract.
  “So like, he cost himself somewhere between what, 50 and 90 million? That’s a pretty insane bag fumble.” (34:15 – Jason)

d. Matchups Moving Forward

• Neither Detroit nor Cleveland would be favored over the Knicks, who are described as a “better version of the Cavs” with more firepower and Jalen Brunson as the top player among either roster (39:33–40:22).

e. NBA Draft Odds Reform

• Jason supports flattening the lottery odds but opposes boosting the odds for play-in range teams, due to potential tanking incentives.
  “I’m pro flattening the odds because… if you have 8, 9, 10 cycles in a row… where you can’t dig out of the bottom… you’re a bad general manager or you’re a poorly run organization.” (41:30–44:18)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Asar Thompson:
  “He’s just so under control, patient. Waits for [Mitchell] to expose the basketball. Boom. Goes and taps it out.” (09:25 – Jason)
• On Harden’s value:
  “This is the scariest this Cavs team has ever been because they have a reliable number two next to Donovan.” (28:41 – Jason)
• On Jalen Duren’s contract situation:
  “If he would average 20 and 10 in this series, he’s making well over $200 million on his next deal… he cost himself somewhere between 50 and 90 million.” (34:15 – Jason)
• On Cade’s development:
  “His foundational trait is he’s huge. He has a ton of functional athleticism… he’s such a good ball handler, such good size, and such good ability to control his athleticism. You’re forcing him to play in a box right now and I just don’t think that’s a good idea.” (25:55 – Jason)
• On the unpredictability of the series:
  “This is about as close as a series can get… both teams have their one-on-ones… it’s just time to play the games and see what happens.” (17:17 – Jason)
• On the Knicks:
  “The Knicks are just like a better version of the Cavs…a bigger, more athletic, just better version of the Cavs. And Jalen Brunson’s the better player out of any player in that group.” (39:35 – Jason)

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Key Timestamps

• 01:20: Show intro, series context, and playoff dynamics
• 02:27–17:45: Intensive tactical game breakdown (shot quality, defense, coaching, late-game possessions)
• 19:43–23:17: Q&A – Max Strus' impact and value
• 23:17–27:41: Q&A – Cade Cunningham’s development and Pistons’ roster needs
• 27:41–30:52: Q&A – James Harden’s role; Duren’s struggles and contract impacts
• 37:13–38:39: Best non-stars/role players in the playoffs
• 39:33: Matchup outlook for Cavs/Pistons vs. Knicks
• 40:22–45:02: Discussion on potential NBA lottery reform, tanking, and rebuilding strategies

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Episode Tone & Language

The episode maintains Jason’s signature mix of in-depth basketball analysis, data-driven argumentation, and a conversational, candid tone. The exchange is both analytical and accessible, peppered with blunt honesty (“James just brings the thing that Donovan sucks at”) and humor (“cost himself 100 million… that’s a pretty insane bag fumble”). The Q&A section builds on fan engagement, adding dimension to team-building and strategic topics.

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For Listeners Who Missed the Episode

This episode is a comprehensive postgame analysis and state-of-the-series check-in for the Cavs-Pistons matchup. Expect detailed breakdowns of on-court tactics, pivotal plays, and how each team is positioned for the rest of the series. The discussion offers sharp perspectives on player value, coaching decisions, and future roster needs while also providing lively engagement with NBA fan questions. If you’re invested in the Eastern Conference playoffs, emerging player storylines, or the business side of the NBA, this episode delivers both the play-by-play nuance and the big-picture context.

Transcript

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You can go anywhere around any of the series. Would love to dig into some stuff around the NBA playoffs with you guys at the tail end of the show. You guys know the joke before we get started. Subscribe to the Hoops Tonight YouTube channel so you don't miss any more of our videos. We're on the pathway to150,000 subs, so it mean a lot to me if you guys would take a second to scroll down and hit that subscribe button. If you're already subscribed, subscribe. Like this video. Sign up for post notifications. That would mean a lot to me. All right, let's talk some basketball. So one of the things we talked about after game four was that the shot quality dynamic, it kind of tilted towards the Cavs for a couple of reasons. And it started to dawn on me at the tail end of game two. If you guys remember, one of the things I talked about was, you know, obviously Cade was Antibias were both showing impressive shot making over the smaller Cavs perimeter players, namely Mitchell and Harden and also Max Stru as well. But The Cavs went 0 for 7 on catch and shoot threes in that fourth quarter. And I thought they were able to get a lot of good threes by playing through the pocket. And essentially it's has a. It's a product of the way that the Pistons are guarding in those coverages. So regardless of whether it's Duran, Isaiah Stewart or Paul Reed, if there's a ball screen involving those guys, they're coming up to the level, which is creating an opening to hit the roll man as he slips out either into the short roll or you saw a little bit of picket popping tonight with Evan Mobley where he popped above the break line. But when that guy gets out of the ball screen, then they're able to get clean looks as they move the ball to the weak side because it creates a four on three, right? And that four on three, if you know it's a too big look with Jared Allen, if they don't. If they don't tag Evan, Evan can look to score. If they do kind of tag Evan with that, that third, third defender, the lob pass to Jared Allen is open. If they tag Jarrett, then the skip over to the weak side is open for a three. And so one of the things that I talked about after game two, if you guys remember, is like, well, the Cavs aren't making these catch and shoot threes, but I mean, if you dig through their NBA playoff history, it's recent playoff history, they've been a very good catch and shoot team in the regular season that struggles to make catch and shoot threes in the postseason, right? Then we go on the road to Cleveland and in Cleveland, that dynamic finally really starts to take shape. Obviously, there's one on ones for both sides, right? You know, James Harden and Donovan Mitchell both had a lot of success attacking Duncan Robinson. There's a lot of James Harden on Tobias Harris that we're starting to see as of late, although I thought Tobias did a little bit better in that matchup. Over the course of the last couple of games, there are some one on ones, but for the most part, if they can get the in into a ball screen and they can get the ball into the pocket, they can get a clean look. And they shot over 40% on catch and shoot threes in both game three and game four. And that dynamic continued tonight into game five as Cleveland continued to get great shots in those ball screens. And so it's interesting as the series has settled down, both teams have their one on ones, right? You know, their size for Tobias and Cade. There's, you know, one on one ISO matchups mainly based on speed and shot making for Tobias, for James Harden and Donovan Mitchell. But each team kind of has their extra punch. For the Cavs, it's very much that get the ball into the ball screen. We have better catch and shoot players. So if we get the ball into the ball screen and we generate that four on three, we're getting good clean catch and shoot threes for good shooters. Like it's like that third quarter run. It's like ball into the, you know, Dennis Schroeder runs a ball screen, swings it over to the weak side. You know, it's max true. That's wide open. It's Sam Merrill that's wide open. These are better shooters than like that last one that the Pistons ran in the in overtime where they get a Sar Thompson off the floor and then they run that same action and it goes to Kara Slivert who's like, yeah, he can make it, but he's not the same level of shooter as Cleveland. Spot up guys are right. Like that's the Cavs advantage. The Pistons advantage is they have a defensive ceiling that they can reach where they're like downright frightening and cause a team can cause a team to, you know, decompose for long stretches with that defense right in the first half, they force all those turnovers for the Cavs and they're getting out in transition off of those turnovers. That crazy defensive run we saw from Assar Thompson down the stretch in regulation where like he's, you know, chasing Donovan Mitchell out of the left corner in a closeout situation and then Peeling off of him to block Jared Allen at the basket. Just an insane play. Asar Thompson had a defensive highlight reel from this game that was outrageous. And he is quite literally one of the most impressive defensive playmakers in the league in terms of just regardless of where he's at, whether he's on the ball, whether he's helping off the ball in like a dig down situation or jumping a passing lane, or is helping at the rim as a secondary layer of rim protection, the dude just can make every single defensive play in the books. And this was an outrageous defensive game for me. But those are like the extra bits of juice that each team gets in this matchup. They got their one on ones, but the Cavs can get clean looks at three in ball screens and the Pistons can go on defensive runs. But when each team kind of has like when, when the Cavs take care of the basketball and they don't decompose against that Detroit defense, they do have a substantial advantage right now in the half court. They have more guys that can create shot, create a shot off the bounce they have. You know, whether it's Evan Mobley being able to run an inverted ball screen and dunk on your head with his left hand like he did in the second half, or it's James Harden getting into the ball screen. Mitchell obviously had a rougher night, but he's dealing with, you know, like we mentioned, one of the best defensive players in the league guarding him right now. And it's just not a great matchup for him. And by the way, like I thought, the Cavs made a pretty bad mistake on that final play of regulation. Playing through Donovan there when they were just getting much cleaner looks out of the James pick and rolls. And like most importantly, just why attack the other team's best defender? It's just a nightmare scenario. By the way, another insane play from Massar Thompson. One of the craziest things about that play when he's pursuing over the top, as Donovan starts to work towards the right elbow, watch how he holds his hand back. Kassar does. He holds his hand back. And he waits for Donovan to expose the basketball. He's just very under control, patient. Waits for him to expose the basketball. Boom. Goes and taps it out. And by the way, one other thing, I know that some Pistons fans were pissed about the non call there on that play. I was completely okay with that being a non call frankly. Like there have been bodies on the floor so many times in this postseason on loose balls where like it's a. Whether it's A tipped away steal or it's a rebound or whatever it might be when the ball is just bouncing around and everyone's going for it. Dudes have been fouling each other all postseason without that being a foul. As a matter of fact, it would have been very unusual to, to call that and to allow the Pistons to win the game at the free throw line over just two guys going for a loose ball. So I was perfectly okay with that no call. But bottom line is, even though Donovan has a rough matchup in the half court, the Cavs have more ways to get a good shot, right? Oh, James Harden has Danish Jenkins one on one. He can get to his right hand and draw a foul like he did on the key possession in overtime. They have the one on ones that they can work. Donovan Mitchell got Dennis Jenkins on a one on one in overtime, was able to get to his right hand, hit a little bank shot. But they also have other avenues to go. Evan Mobley can run a one on one or run a inverted ball screen and get to his left hand through the, the the ball screens. They were able to get better shots. So like the thing with the Pistons defense is that no matter how high of a ceiling they can reach on that end, as long as the Cavs play composed basketball, they could get better shots than the Pistons could as this series has kind of progressed and as things have really settled in. And so obviously the Pistons went ice cold down the stretch. They Jackson pulled the stat for me from the end of regulations going into the beginning of overtime. There was a five minute stretch there where the Pistons didn't score a basket. And what they did is they just started double teaming. And this is where I think Kenny Atkinson deserves some credit. You know what? Come a long way from game one where we're closing with Evan Mobley by himself at the center spot and it's like a very small, not very physically imposing Cavs defensive front line. We're getting the too big look and what that allows for Cleveland to do is essentially be like, okay Tobias, you can take that catch and shoot three. Okay, Caris Levert, you can take that catch and shoot three. We're getting the ball out of Cade's hands and you're not going to get anything underneath the basket either on the offensive glass or on cuts or even for Cade looking to drive as he's getting into those situations. And so they were able to play. You know, Paul Reed, who again was awesome down the stretch of this game and made a lot of really big plays, had a big Offensive rebound, a couple of big offensive rebounds. One that led to a three. One that was a dunk, you know, had a nasty lefty hook that he hit over Evan Mobley. He made a lot of plays, but he tried to go at Evan Mobley off of one of those double teams down the stretch and got blocked. Right? You know, they were able to get the ball out of Kate's hands and into mediocre shooters and it was something they were willing to live with. And the Pistons went cold. And that's really the key, right? Like, why are the Pistons coming up to the level in ball screens? They're doing it to get the ball out of Donovan Mitchell's hands, to get the ball out of James Harden's hands. The difference is it's being worked around to better players. Like the only real shot that they took down the stretch where you're like, oh, you'll live with that, is that pick and pop three that Evan Mobley took at the top of the key and he did stick that one. But like Evan Mobley, you know, if he doesn't want to pop, if that does isn't working, he can short roll. And they are, they're able to get into their high, low spacing like we talked about with Isaiah Hartenstein and Chet Holmgren, where one of them catches in the middle. You have your high, low spacing there. There was one that they missed on that play in overtime and then Jared Allen ended up getting a put back dunk because it's just layered. It's layered attacks of the rim because they have a too big look that they're going there. So like I think Kenny Atkinson made the right call going to that too big look. Now one of the important details down the stretch, JB Bickerstaff goes away from a Sar Thompson and puts in Caris Levert. That's where like not having Duncan Robinson obviously hurts because if that's Duncan Robinson in the right corner on that beautiful lefty swing pass out to the right corner, then that's a different result in all likelihood, right? Duncan's probably going to hit that Corner Close to 60% of the time when he's wide open, right? So like obviously Duncan Robinson being out hurts, but overall the Pistons don't have the type of catch and shoot talent that Cleveland does. They don't have the ball handling talent that Cleveland does. So it was just important for Cleveland to find a way to hold up physically and they've been able to find a way to do that with their too big lineup. And it Just requires a certain amount of execution on offense to not soil yourself against that Detroit pressure, right? Like they did have a couple of ugly turnovers down the stretch, including James had a pretty bad one in overtime. There was a short role play where Evan Mobley rifled a pass that was to a wide open Donovan Mitchell and he just threw it out of bounds because he was rushed, he was stressed, he didn't take his time. He did decompose. He turned it over because like, here's the thing, guys, the series isn't over. All the things I'm talking about. It looked multiple times like the Cavs were going to. It looked like the Pistons were going to win for the long time in this game. Then the Cavs take over and they have all that momentum. They go up four, you're like, oh, the Cavs are going to win this game. Then the Pistons come in and go on a 120 run or 100 run or whatever it was in the fourth quarter. You're like, oh, the Pistons are going to win this game. And then all of a sudden the Pistons don't score for five minutes and it's like all the Cavs are going to win this game. And then all of a sudden in overtime, they cut it down to two, James Harden misses a free throw and you're like, oh, here come the Pistons. They're going to go, they're going to have a chance. And Cade, for whatever reason doesn't box out the shooter and K James Harden gets his own rebound and then the Cavs end up winning. So the point is, is like this series still is going all over the place and can very like the Pistons very easily can go into Cleveland and win. It's just very clear what the dynamic is. Both teams have their one on ones, right? Each of their ball handlers have to play to their own individual ceilings, right? Cade was pretty bad in game games 3 and 4. Cade was amazing tonight for the most part. And when he has his jump shot going, he's by far the best player in the series, right? Donovan Mitchell was amazing in games three and four. He was pretty rough tonight, right? I think James Harden to his credit, has been pretty awesome since the fourth quarter of game three, since that run that he went on that ended game three. I think his advantage creation, just getting the ball into pick and roll and creating advantage has been awesome. But it's very clear that the the ball handlers have their one on ones. The Cavs have the ability to run ball screens, get clean looks at threes, and Detroit has The ability to really decompose Cleveland with their defense for long stretches and go on defensive fueled runs. And what happens in game six? What combination of those variables favors Detroit or Cleveland more if Cleveland wins and closes out the series? Mitchell's going to play well. James is going to get the ball into the pocket. The they're not going to turn the ball over a ton against Detroit's defense. Cleveland's bigs are going to make plays with high, low spacing or Evan Mobley hitting the occasional pick and pop three. You know they're going to knock down their catch and shoot threes. This is three straight games where the Cavs knock down their catch and shoot threes. Like that's what it's going to look like if Cleveland wins. If Detroit wins, it's going to be defensive fueled runs. It's going to be Cade Cunningham being an efficient scorer in the mid-30s in knocking down jump shots. One of Danis or Tobias is going to pour in, you know, 20 points per game. JB is going to play that game between playing a SAR versus not playing a SAR based on how much defensive playmaking there is versus how much spacing there is needed. You know, it's. It's very clear what each team's ceiling looks like in this matchup. And now it's just time to play the games and see what happens. But that was an incredibly entertaining game. This is about as close as a series can get. Guys like I leaned very slightly towards Detroit before the series. If you guys remember, I said I'd put him at like -150, -200 if I was setting the line. And Cleveland now clearly has an advantage and they have an opportunity to close it out in game six. And I think anybody would view them as a slight favorite at this point with them being a favorite at home in only needing one game. But Detroit very much can come back and win this series. We saw them do it in the last round. We know they're capable. Kate Cunningham, when he's at his best, is the best player in the series. So this thing isn't over, but advantage to Cleveland for now. All right, let's bring Jackson up. Let's take some questions from the chat. Today's show is brought to you by presenting sponsor Hard Rock bet, Florida's sportsbook. The second round of the NBA playoffs is here, where the lights are brighter, the pressure is higher, and every possession can change a series. And a Hard Rock Bet every night is your shot to score a major bucket with win or go home energy on the hardwood. 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We do some retirement Homes.

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[Jackson]

Let's do it first. One super chat from Bryce. He said Max STR gets labeled as a catch and shoot guy, but he's, he has so many winning traits. He kept so many plays alive tonight and has has been a pretty good defender.

[Jason]

Yeah, K Kate has had his hands full with Max. Just like Max is like a textbook like pest defender. There's so many different ways to kind of look at this in terms of, you know, what your defensive upside is in any sort of matchup. And like Max knows that if he plays Cade straight up, he's gonna get beat. So for example, take like some of those reps you saw with the star Thompson on Donovan. Azar's approach on Donovan is very like container. It's very like beat you to spots and take contact. Because Asar knows that as long as he plays straight up disciplined basketball defensively against Donovan, he can't actually shoot over him. He doesn't have size, he doesn't have speed, he doesn't have length, he doesn't have any physical advantage versus sar. So for a star it's like keep your hands out of the cookie jar. Wait for him to expose it before you make any sort of move. Slide your feet, take that shoulder in the middle of the chest. Like the SAR is playing a very like fun, fundamental brand of defense because he has the physical advantage. Nax knows he's not bigger, faster or stronger than, than Cade and so like he's really leaning on like the, the like kind of gamesmanship side. Like a lot of reaching a lot of gambling. He is giving up dribble penetration on a lot of these and like it's actually working in his favor in the large sample because he's played Cade into a lot of sloppy mistakes and I think there's a lot of value in that individual trait on the shooting part. There's two things with Max that I think go highly underrated and I've seen this with a lot of really good shooters in the league that people just think of it about think of it as like catch and shoot play when, when it's so much more than that because there are really good catch and shoot players that struggle with this idea. Max is both a good catch and shoot player, but also a good aggressive catch and shoot player. What I mean by that is like he will take slightly open threes and step into that them confidently, get tons of lift and he'll knock them down. That's key. We've talked about a lot with the spurs this year. With guys like Julian Champagne, for example, you are more valuable as a spacer. When a defender knows that you don't need much space to shoot. The second piece of it is the closeout attacking. Like Max is just really good at like using the threat of his shooting to either like relocate, you know, Duncan's really good at this too. Or he'll pump, fake and like take a big relocation step and cover a lot of ground. But Max will pump Baker and cover a lot of ground either into the paint to make that next read or to get himself a better three through a relocation. He's just very good at playing against closeouts and so all of that kind of ties together into more than just a typical 3 on 3 and D player. He's like a real defensive playmaker, a very valuable shooter and a guy that can generate a lot of advantage attacking closeouts. Kind of like Luke Kennard with the Lakers as well. I just think there's a lot of value in that playing off advantage.

[Jackson]

Yeah, he has been this guy for a while. I mean he's definitely was a big part of the reason the Miami Heat went to multiple NBA Finals. There's.

[Jason]

I just think he's really good.

[Jackson]

He's just really, really good.

[Jason]

Yeah.

[Jackson]

Another super chat question, this one from over east two. He said Cade is doing his best 2009 LBJ impression. Detroit got to get him a running mate, a real professional score. We've had a couple questions in the chat about obviously the Piston season isn't over, but it's also obvious that they need more offensive skill around Cade. And so some questions about how can they bring in a second option over the summer.

[Jason]

What.

[Jackson]

What should they do to look for a running a better running mate alongside Kate Cunningham?

[Jason]

Yeah, I was talking with those of you guys who listen to Locked on Pistons know Kukulilu. He does a really good job and I've gone on his show a couple times and I went on with him last week and we talked a lot about, you know, this idea that Kate is becoming a better tight space score and there's real truth to that. And by the way we saw again tonight in the fourth quarter cage just hit a bunch of really tough jump shots and he deserves credit for that. And like, I would absolutely argue that that is the best ceiling raiser for him. It's one of the big reasons why, like, speaking of the LBJ comps, why I think 2018 LeBron is the best basketball player that I've ever seen. Because it was the combination of this, like, you know, freaky athlete, two way player who could pressure the rim like crazy and did all the LeBron stuff. But he also was a dude who just was really confident stepping into pull up jump shots from all three levels and that, or, you know, I should say from the two levels that you would take the pull up jump shot from. And that is a ceiling razor. That said, when was LeBron at his best? When he was surrounded by shooting and preferably shooting that can defend like there's a fine line. But I do, when I envision Cade, I view the tight space scoring as more of a ceiling razor than a foundational trait. His foundational trait is he's huge. He has a ton of functional athleticism. Functional athleticism, which put a pin in that, because I want to come back to that in a second because I think that's a really interesting thing I was coming away from tonight with. But the second piece of it is he's just an incredible passer. He's an incredible passer. So I think it's a waste to have him play in a situation where he has to be a tight space scorer. And there was a lot of that tonight where it's like he's having to take a lot of these tough pull up jump shots because that's the best shot his team can get. When I'd prefer to put him in an environment where he's surrounded by more shooting. This, the secondary ball handling piece, I don't think that's unique to Cade. I think that's just life in the NBA. Like, who the hell is trying to win at a serious level with one dude who's a reliable ball handler? Like, what are we even doing here? You know what I mean? Like, there's not a single other team in the playoff field that was playing under that dynamic, right? Like, LeBron had Austin, Kevin Durant at Alburn, Shangun, like, you go down the list, even though bad teams at the bottom of the playoff field had like a legitimate number two. And you know, I really like Tobias Harris and he's played really well, but like, there's a lot of pressure on him to be great under his current circumstance. Right. So they do eventually have to get him a secondary ball handler. I just think when I envision the future of this team, I just imagine him surrounded by more spacing because, like, the functional athleticism piece is key. To me, the difference between, like, Caleb Wilson and like, Cam Boozer is a fascinating example of this where, like, you watch Caleb Wilson tape and you're like, that dude is a disgusting athlete. But then, like, he runs the shuttle drill or the lane agility drill at a slower speed than Cam. Right. And a big part of that is like, there's. There's. I can move my body and there's. I really know how to move my body are like, two very different things. And Cade, to me, is not a guy who's gonna have dramatic, measurable athleticism, but he's just so good at moving his body. He's so good at getting the peak out of his athleticism. He actually kind of. This is an interesting comp Jackson, that that'll kind of come out of left field. He reminds me a little bit of like, Jabari Parker before the injuries. Whoa. And what I mean by that is, like, not the quickest first step, not the best vertical athlete, but somehow he's like, dunking everything and, like, getting around dudes at will because he just was very, very good at using his body. Cade's obviously a way better player than Jabari, by the way. I think Jabari would have been a better player if he didn't get hurt a bunch. That dude's needs. His knees just couldn't hold up, man. It is what it is. How many times are you terrorist acl? Like six. Like, it was legitimately insane. But anyway, like, I. I think Cade's best ability is that he's really difficult to keep from getting downhill to his spots because he's such a good ball handler, such good size, and such good ability to control his athleticism, and you're forcing him to play in a box right now. And I just don't think that's a good idea.

[Jackson]

Another super chat question. He said, Harden did his job, he got you two games, and now it's up to Donovan to close it out. And I also noticed what you were saying about Drew Jalen Dern going off one foot. We can put a pin in the Jalen Duran stuff. We got a couple. Couple questions about that as well.

[Jason]

Yeah. You know, James has arguably been the best cav, like depending on who you ask, over the entire series. Like, again, Donovan put a massive scoring numbers in Game three and in game four. But I really do think James's work and pick and roll, getting the initial advantage has been highly underrated in this series. And in a lot of ways, like this is kind of the ideal pairing in the modern NBA is like a score first type of player and then an advantage creating type of player. Now these are two lower level versions of both of those examples. But like James just brings the thing that Donovan sucks at. You know, like, to put it simply, let's say that this series was Donovan Mitchell, no Darius Garland because Darius was hurt again and no James obviously do I trust Donovan to have been the player to be like to figure out like, oh, if I get the ball in the pocket against this team, we get good threes. So let me put the ball into the pocket against this team 25 times and see if we can't get a bunch of really good shots. Like, no, I think he would have tried to solve more of his problems by scoring into taking a lot of bad shots. James has like identified that that's a real way to get this thing moving. And in a lot of ways, like I would argue it hasn't been perfect. There's been really ugly moments. They were pushed to the brink by Toronto. They were down 02 in this series. But this is the scariest this Cavs team has ever been because they have a reliable number two next to Donovan. And Jared and Nevin are both a little better than they've been in previous years. And I just think, you know, we gotta, we gotta keep it fair here. Like, James got a lot of criticism. James has been pretty awesome over the course of the last few games. I know it hasn't been perfect. There's been ugly plays and his plays are so ugly. The ugly turnovers and the, the flops on the threes, they're really tough. But like I, I think he's, I think he deserves a lot of credit for how well he's played. The Jalen Duran piece of it we did. Jackson and I exchanged a couple texts in the second half when Jalen finally made a two foot move. Do you guys see that? That's what it looks like when you do a drop step off two feet. You pivot off of two feet. Evan can't knock him off his base. He goes up and dunks it in his face. Like, that's the thing that I want to see Jalen continue to get better at. But it doesn't bode well that the third string center is the guy that J.B. bickerstaff uses his most views as his most reliable option right now.

[Jackson]

Yeah. So let's stay on the Jalen during piece. We have a couple questions about Jalen Dern. Some people were saying, asking what is sort of what is the issue. Jaylen Duran last series it felt fair to say it was sort of not. He didn't have the physical mismatch that he's had against most centers. Now it sort of seems like he does have that and he's still struggling. So what, aside from the two foot versus one foot stuff offensively, what, what are the issues you're seeing with Jaylen Duran?

[Jason]

Yeah, so again I won't dig into the two foot, one foot stuff again because that's the big one that, that I think is worth mentioning here in terms of his long term development. But honestly, like I think Paul Reed's been in his bag. Like he's been providing real offensive value. He's been outward. Like the thing is, is like Paul Reed can work on the offensive class, but so can Jalen Duran. And Jalen Duran has had moments on the offensive glass in the series, so he deserves some credit for that. But Paul Reed can do that too. So it's like what else is, are you separating with. Well, we're defending up at the level in ball screen, so rim protection is less valuable in this individual case. Okay. So it doesn't really matter that he's smaller than Durant and Paul has provided just that little bit of extra pop when Cade is getting guarded at the level. As a player who can make more plays in a four on three as a player who can do more work in the middle of the floor, he's just more skilled. And so part of it is the coverage because I would argue if, if it was like game one where they're running drop and they're going with Evan Mobley at center. I want Jalen Duran on the floor because he's just going to manhandle mobile and get Duncan finish everything around the basket. But they're playing a too big look. They're playing up at the level of ball screens. They need more skill in that spot working from the middle of the floor and Paul Reed has just provided more skill. So I think there's a big picture conversation about during skill development, but there's also just the reality of we need to win this game, what matchup works best. And I agree with J.B. i, I think Paul Reed under the circumstances, with how they're guarding Cade, just gives them their best chance to score. He made a crazy block that Block on James Harden.

[Jackson]

The Paul reblock was one of the craziest blocks I've ever seen. To be like legitimately behind Harden, completely behind him, full extension on a finger roll and he just somehow reached out.

[Jason]

It was crazy. The slow mo was crazy because he was like, just gave it a little flip.

[Jackson]

Another Jalen during question. This guy said this is a, you know, a half joking question, but he said where would you rank the Jalen Duran bag fumble amongst recent bag fumbles? We can sort of answer that question seriously or not. But how much money is Jalen Duran losing himself? This playoff run does feel like a legitimate question at this point.

[Jason]

So nothing will ever be as bad I, I think as the, the Dennis Schroeder who straight up turned down the money.

[Jackson]

That's okay because the thing with Dennis

[Jason]

Schroeder is the money was there.

[Jackson]

What was it on the table, brother.

[Jason]

It was four years for 80.

[Jackson]

Yeah.

[Jason]

And then I think he ended up signing a mid level exception the next year.

[Jackson]

It was a one year deal or a mid level exception.

[Jason]

Yeah, it was something really bad. I think he might have signed a minimum and then did a middle level exception the next year. Someone, someone can correct us in the chat, but it was something, it was something like that. But that one was pretty bad because the money was like literally there. But this is top. Can you think of one off the top of your head? I mean he, he cost himself 100 million. It seems like it feels like it.

[Jackson]

I mean it's hard to say. It feels like everyone, it's, it's with the. Everyone just feels like they're getting paid. I can't remember the last guy who didn't really like. It just seems like even guys who don't necessarily quote unquote deserve to get paid are still getting paid. So it's hard to. For me, me to remember one in recent memory. It does feel like this is, it feels like it has to cost him money. I mean I don't know. I don't know if it end up will. If it will or not based on what kind of teams need centers, but it feels like it has to cost them some money.

[Jason]

So let's get into the specifics here because like first of all we kind of like I got into this when Jared Allen signed and when Isaiah Hartenstein signed and like the, the league average starting center makes 30 million a year. Like, like in that ballpark. So that is the starting point. Now you could argue he's a little bit below a league average starting center. You could argue He's a little bit above because he's younger and has more potential to grow. What. However you want to argue that, let's just view 30 million as the starting point. So if you were to sign with the Pistons at, you know, five for 150, but if he would average 20 and 10 in this series, he's averaging, he's making well over $200 million on his next deal. So like he cost himself somewhere between what, 50 and 90 million. Like, that's, that's a pretty, that's a pretty insane bag fumble.

[Jackson]

There's no doubt it feels that way. And it also will be, it'll be really interesting how Detroit approaches it in the off season, how much they're willing to pay if they want to try to sign and trade him because the number's too high. If they prioritize, they have Isaiah Stewart's on a team option, I believe for next year. Maybe they have one more season before his, his option. So like how they handle those two sort of like almost parallel contracts, it's a really interesting offseason for them.

[Jason]

I made a, you know, because there's a lot of Lakers fans that are like, oh, we want Durham. And one of the things that I was, you know, kind of pitching as an alternative is you have Isaiah Stewart under contract for several more years. You have Paul Reed under contract next season. There's a version of this where like you could call the Lakers and work out some sort of sign in trade where like the Pistons get Rui Hachimura on us on a deal and the Lakers get Jalen Duran on a deal. And it's like a, in that somewhere right around like 20 to 25 million per kind of thing. But both of those players to me feel overpaid at that number. Like, I know rui Hachimura shot 50 something percent from 3 this year to his credit. And I know Duran averaged 20 and 10. Like, like, but I feel like, I feel like for Rui that'd be selling high or like, I feel like that'd be buying a little bit high. Like buying at the very peak of his value. And then for Durin, I just still, I, I just think he's not a great defensive player outside of like deep drop. And he's not really bringing offensive value beyond screening and vertical spacing. That's a lot of money to pay for a pretty limited archetype of player.

[Jackson]

Yeah, yeah, it's tough. Okay, next question. Oh, the chat was saying that Nerland's Noel is another like big bag fumble he got. I think he had like at the time it was a big deal. 4 for like 40 something on the table and kind of. It turned it down.

[Jason]

That was the one that he like broke up with Clutch Sports after or something like that.

[Jackson]

Yeah, something like that.

[Jason]

Yeah.

[Jackson]

Yeah. Okay, next question. This is a fun one from Kaylin. He said who has been the best role player slash non star in the playoffs. I would say Max Struse in the east and Caruso. So in the West.

[Jason]

This is a great question.

[Jackson]

It's a great question.

[Jason]

There. Let me. I'm gonna pull up the standings because that'll help me kind of like. Yeah, this on the fly, but let's see. So on the Pistons front, I think Tobias Harris deserves a ton of credit.

[Jackson]

Oh yeah. It's by his hair's good one because

[Jason]

I mean I know that he's like functioning as a star, but like that dude is a role player through and through and he's scooping his ass off.

[Jackson]

AJ Mitchell.

[Jason]

AJ Mitchell is absolutely on that list. Max Drew is a great pick. On the Sixers front, I mean, is VJ Edgecomb count as a. Yeah, yeah.

[Jackson]

BJ has been really good.

[Jason]

Let's see. I'm going out west now. Yeah. A.J. mitchell. I think Isaiah Hartenstein deserves a ton of credit too. Like Isaiah Hartenstein, I thought was one of the main fail points for the Lakers in that series the first week of the playoffs.

[Jackson]

It was Luke Canard kind of. He cooled. Yeah. Is probably one of the answers. Honestly, he shot over

[Jason]

crazy. It feels like he's sort of a

[Jackson]

frustrating player at times and doesn't always feel like his IQ is like really locked in all the time, but he could not miss.

[Jason]

Rudy Gobert, I think obviously deserves a ton of credit for what happened in the first round. Jaden McDaniels too.

[Jackson]

Jada McDaniels. Yeah.

[Jason]

Jaden McDaniels has been legitimately awesome. Those are kind of the main ones to me. After that we're kind of digging into more of that like highly paid, like fringe star kind of arch.

[Jackson]

Yeah. Like the chat sort of saying OG Ananobi and it's like I guess he's a role player, but he's makes a lot of money and he is probably their second best player if we're being really honest about Towns.

[Jason]

If you dig into some bench guys, like I think, I think Danish Jenkins, I think like Landry Shammit has had a couple of really, really big games coming off the bench. Like you can dig into a lot of. A lot of different Guys there.

[Jackson]

I mean, a lot of good players in this league.

[Jason]

Yeah. Alex Caruso as a bench guy for the Thunder. Yeah.

[Jackson]

Okay, a couple more questions. Which of these two teams, Pistons or Cavaliers, do you think matches up better with New York? We may have answered this question before a previous live stream, but someone asked it again.

[Jason]

I think the.

[Hard Rock Bet Ad Voice]

You.

[Jason]

Actually, I'm not going to take any credit for this. Jackson said this in the chat and I agree with him. Or in my, in our text feed. I think the Knicks are just like a better version of the Cavs. So they're a bigger, more athletic, just better version of the Cavs. And Jalen Brunson's the better player out of any player in that group. So I, I think that I would take the Knicks over Cleveland pretty easy. The Pistons, it's so. They're just so physically imposing that they have given trouble to so many of these teams in the regular season and they were 30 versus the Knicks in the regular season. But my gut says even with that and I would need to go back and watch film. But my gut, my initial impression is that I'd pick the Knicks over both of them pretty comfortably. Like the Knicks have just been so much more impressive than every other Eastern Conference team in the playoffs so far.

[Jackson]

Definitely. Definitely. Okay, last question for the night. Jason, what do you think of Adam Silver's new draft odds proposal? The idea of worsening the odds for 1 through 4 and sort of increasing the odds or 5 through 10 or sort of like in that middle range, try to de. Incentivize teams from like really, really hardcore tanking.

[Jason]

I like, I like flattened odds because to me, like the whole point is if you're in that bottom grouping, I don't, I. Once you're in that bottom grouping, I want you working on player development, not unintentionally losing. Where I disagree with it is the chances to get the number one overall pick that are from teams in the playing. That makes no sense to me because now I think you'll have teams tank playing games. Yeah. Like that. That to me, when I saw that I was like, I literally don't understand the upside there. Like what? There's going to be a team that's going to be like we're sitting out our star for a playing game like that.

[Jackson]

Yeah.

[Jason]

I think that's something that we'll see next year. We'll see a team sit out a star in a play in game.

[Jackson]

Right. So you're telling me if the Clippers make the plan next year and they keep Kawhi Leonard and they, and the one seed is okc. Like, and they're in the second play in game like they don't want to win that game.

[Jason]

No. Why would they? There's no upside. There's literally no upside. So yeah, I, I, the idea of the relegation zone or whatever you want to call it, I was, I was cool with because like to me having teams trying to fight out of the bottom is actually like a very intriguing thing. But and I'm, I'm pro flattening because I just, I just, I think that because one of the things that people who are anti flattening would say is they'd go, well, teams need good players from the draft in order to dig out of their mess. So it's actually better just to have more traditional lottery odds where the worst team gets the better record because it gives them a better chance to get out of that group. And a lot of people will say like, oh, this draft is just so deep and that's why it's so bad. And while I acknowledge all of those things are true, I also just simply think that you can dig yourself out if you get the seventh pick a few years in a row. Like frankly, do your due diligence draft better find better dudes in free agency. Find better dudes on the margins. Run your damn basketball team better find good basketball players and you won't scream suck like I, I, I, I, I hate this like excuse making for these teams that we see that are perennially bad. Like I, I, yes, you're right. Victor Wembanyama can turn around the, the fortunes of your franchise and so can she G Alexander. But we have to stop pretending those guys come around all the time. They don't like for the most part it's more flat between those upper level picks and those picks behind. And it's really through just good decision making in each cycle. Like I, I'm sorry but like if you have 8, 9, 10 cycles in a row, like meaning trade deadlines and summers where you can't dig out of the bottom of the league, I'm not blaming the lottery odds. That's that you're a bad general manager or you're a poorly run organization. So I, yeah, I, I, I, I'm pro flattening the odds because what it does is it puts you in that like, okay, you drop in this big bin at the bottom of the league, this 10 team bin. If you're in that bin, you, this is your shot to, to get a draft pick. Bottom four teams, yeah, you bet your ass we want you crawling out of that spot. We're punishing you for sucking.

[Jackson]

Right.

[Jason]

But then also, I think cutting it off at the playoffs makes the most sense because then at that point, at least the teams that are in like to your point, like, remember that Sunday where the spurs deliberately lost the game or didn't they sat out Wimby and then ended up losing. I want it to be like, final buzzer, boom, okay, we're in the playoffs. No more tanking. Everyone's playing for real now. That's what I want. Whereas you would be going into Tuesday night and they'd be like, well, should we try to go in this game? Like, that's the part that I just don't understand.

[Jackson]

Yeah, I agree. And I'm also just hopeful that next season won't be this egregious because some of these graph classroom aside, these teams that have been tanking for the last couple years, some of them feel like they maybe are finally making stringing together some good decisions, like the Jazz are not going to be hard.

[Jason]

The Wizards might not suck.

[Jackson]

The Wizards are gonna are at least trying to win basketball games next year. Like, without a doubt they're trying to win basketball games. The Pacers obviously aren't going to be tanking this year. So some of these, like, true bottom feeder teams of this season I don't think will be. I mean, someone's got to be the worst, but like, I don't think there's going to be as many teams just punting basketball games next season.

[Jason]

It's obviously Brooklyn, right?

[Jackson]

Yeah, Brooklyn's got to be the worst one, especially with how unlucky they they have gotten in the last couple of draft cycles. I don't know what the heck they do. I feel bad.

[Jason]

Yeah. But like, at the same time, I mean, they, by the end of this next draft cycle, like the amount of young players they've taken in the last few drafts, it's like, at a certain point, some of these dudes got to be good.

[Jackson]

Someone's got to be good. It feels like they missed on every single one. And it also feels like they have held on to some of their tradable assets and like, it feels like they could have tanked even harder. Like they could have tanked much harder. They could have traded Claxton and Michael Porter Jr. Easily at the deadline and just been had one of the worst rosters imaginable. And maybe they'll do that next season.

[Jason]

Maybe they'll do it this summer.

[Jackson]

Yeah, maybe they'll do it this summer. But they are. I mean, the, the Nets at this point got to be, if not the worst one of. They gotta have the worst outlook of a team.

[Jason]

Oh, my God. If you're a Nets fan right now and you said you have a buddy

[Jackson]

who's a Nets, my best friend Cameron, shout out to Cam is, yeah, it's

[Jason]

got to be a brutal spot to be in.

[Jackson]

They just haven't. I just don't. They don't have really much to hold on to. Like, it was going to be like, okay, if they had a top two pick this year. It's like, all right, whatever. It's been a nightmare a couple of years, but at least we got Debancer Peterson and now they're looking at Kingston Flemings. Like, I don't know if that dude's like changing the whole. The fan base or anything.

[Jason]

Yeah, I, I, like, I. There were times where I was watching this year. I'm like, oh, Drake Powell, kind of interesting guy, can handle the ball a little bit. Like long arms, good athlete, play some defense. But like, they don't have a single guy that you're watching. You're like, oh, that's the dude. That's the dude who's gonna guide us into the next era.

[Jackson]

We watched, we. We on our live stream were shocked when they took Jegor Demon as their first pick or whatever and he pretty much turned out to be what we expected, which is like, fine and had some bright moments. But it's not a franchise altering type of player by any means.

[Jason]

No, exactly. It's brutal times for the Brooklyn Nets fans. All right, guys, that is all we have for tonight. Guess What? Tonight, our 26th consecutive night, we are not having a show tomorrow night. There is no NBA game. We also have no show tomorrow morning. We are taking a day off. My. We are in Chicago. We did a couple of hits on the Herd. That was a really cool experience. Colin is incredible. It was so cool getting to go see the Big Ten studio. The way that they put the show together is really fascinating because they, you know, Colin obviously lives in Chicago now and they're splicing the show together with a whole team in Los Angeles. And so like J Max in Los Angeles, they have a whole other production team in Los Angeles and they like splice it together. It's honestly super impressive how they do it. But Colin was incredible. The staff there was incredible. That was just a fun experience for me as someone who obviously I've been on the Herd before virtually and I've been on Collins show before. But like to actually like be in a TV studio sitting across calling was just a, as you can imagine, just a really cool experience for me as someone who's such a big fan of his growing up and kind of was a big moment. So I, that, that was cool. And my wife got to be here and see the whole thing, which was awesome. And Chicago, I have been to some big cities in my life. I spent a lot of time in la, obviously, and then I have been to New York several times because my little brother played football at West Point. And so I traveled up there quite a bit and like Manhattan was a cool experience, don't get me wrong. But Chicago is such a cooler city like that when you're out downtown in Chicago, the, the scene, the food scene, the architecture, the like the big pieces of art they have all over in all the parks and all these spots. The, the, the museums are incredible. We went to go see the Chicago Art Institute today and that was legitimately one of the coolest experience of my coolest experiences of my life. The cool old stuff they have there. It just has been an awesome experience. And getting to do that in the middle of the playoff run has been a little chaotic, but we've made the most of it. We're getting out and exploring and tomorrow we have another day to get out. If you guys ever have a chance, come to come stay, stay right in the heart of downtown Chicago, like right by the river and spend some time enjoying the food and enjoying the music and enjoying, enjoying some of the other stuff they have to offer there. But headed after tomorrow we have the day off and then we're flying home on Friday and then we will be back live on YouTube after what will probably be our last two game night. That's my guess is on Friday we have a couple of game sixes. We'll be live on YouTube after the final buzzer of Spurs Wolves. I will see you guys then. This is an iHeart podcast. Guaranteed Human.