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The Herd with Colin Cowherd
Hoops Tonight - SPURS-WOLVES GAME 5 REACTION: Wemby DOMINATES in return vs. Anthony Edwards & Rudy Gobert
00:48:27
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Jason
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Where does your group perform?
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We do some retirement homes.
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Clifford Taylor IV
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Jason
What?
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Time out. Quarterback on off is blue 42. Hey, rep, mama wants you to weigh better.
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Jason
What?
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Jason
The Volume.
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Hoops Tonight Host
All right, welcome to Hoops tonight here at the Volume.
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Jason
Happy Tuesday, everybody. Hope all of you guys are having a great start to your week. Got a fun show for you guys tonight. We're in single game territory. There's a couple more double game nights. We have two games on Friday night and then if we have both series go to seven, we'll have two games on Sunday night. But we're starting to get into that territory where the schedule gets a little lighter. Fewer teams around to play basketball. Just one game tonight. Minnesota versus San Antonio. Game five. We're going to be breaking that game down from the perspective of both teams. And then if any of you guys have any questions about this series or really anything, drop them in the chat. Jackson's going to come hang out at the tail end of the show and we'll go back and forth with the mailbag for a little bit. You guys know the joke before we get started. Subscribe to the Hoops Tonight YouTube channel so you don't miss any more of our videos. We're on the pathway to 150,000 subs, so it mean a lot to me if you guys would take a second to scroll down and hit that subscribe button if you're already subscribed like this video. Sign up for post notifications. That helps us a lot. All right, let's talk some basketball.
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Hoops Tonight Host
So we of the things we talked
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Jason
about after game four was that this series kind of has two very unique feels. When WEMBY's on the floor versus off, and that continued to be the case in this game. There were a couple of pretty solid shifts with Luke Cornett on the floor where the spurs were able to maintain the lead in this game. But you saw some of that similar kind of fracturing in that first quarter when Wemby stepped off the floor. As a matter of fact, after tonight, if you remove the blowout that happened in Game 2, which obviously had a lot of noise, Minnesota really mailed that one in. They weren't even running back on defense and transition in that game. If you remove that game. So far in this series The spurs are plus 44 when Victor Wembanyama is on the floor in minus 15 when he's off. Very simple dynamic when he is on the floor, it makes everything so much harder for Minnesota because he quite frankly shuts the rim off. They can occasionally get a C circumstance where they, you know, get out and transition or Julius Randall ties Wemby up underneath the basket or someone just has a really nice finish, right? Like you know, Nas had one Tonight or Jaden McDaniels had a big scooping right handed finish. There's little examples like oh, Wemby was just a tiny bit late on Help and IO Dasunu dunked the ball. But you like watch the slowdown in Wemby's hand is like still there on the ball. So like they keep finding just the occasional tiny, tiny opening at the Rim. But other than that, it's a lot of really contested shots. It's ant shooting over double teams, it's tough, contested mid range jump shots for Julius Randall. And it's maybe every once in a while we can engage Wimby at the rim in a way that creates a kick out opportunity to that corner. And I actually thought the Wolves shot
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Hoops Tonight Host
pretty well on some of those kickouts that they got.
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Jason
And so they lingered around at various points in this game. But just life is so much harder for them to on offense when Victor's on the floor. Soon as Victor steps off, you just see them. It's an open lane to the rim over and over again. And then on the offensive end for San Antonio, it's a similar kind of dynamic where, you know, there's a lot of young talent for San Antonio and they're capable of making plays for sure. But you know, their perimeter guys are not as talented as Minnesota's perimeter guys. They're older, they're more experienced. Ant's the best player in that group, right? And when Victor's out there, he just creates a certain amount of advantage creation. Just sheer, through a sheer presence in what he does, whether it's just screening. Like, okay, you have him setting a back screen at the elbow coming out of a timeout for Devin Vassell and you know, Julius Randall's just not going to want to help off of him. And so Vassell gets wide open for a dunk on a backdoor lob or in ball screens, if he sets a screen, it just creates this, you know, big opening for Dear and Fox or whoever the ball handler is to kind of work downhill into the lane. Or if it's like just his roles, just his sheer presence on roles creates all these openings for skip passes and for the ball handler and pick and roll to look to score. And then even like when they do switch, it creates all these advantages, right? Like you saw a perfect example of that today that we saw a ton of the Fox Victor Wembanyama pick and roll tonight. And when we saw like them switch it, it'd be like, okay, well now Ju Julius Randall's on Fox and he's just too slow for Fox and all he has to do is beat Julius Randall off the dribble. That's going to force Anthony Edwards to step up and help. And now it's just the easiest lob in the world to victim to Victor at the rim. And so it just makes so life so much easier for all of San Antonio's guards in the half court, right? And like every game like we always talk about, has its unique flow. Tonight we saw Victor come out just with his hair on fire, like he was trying to make up for letting his team down in game four. And he did. He just came. Jackson had sent me the, the stats, let me read them out to you guys. And he kind of did a little accounting of first shift that he had. And in Victor's first shift, before he stepped off the floor, he went for 16 points, five rebounds and one assist in the first six minutes. That's like absolutely insane stuff from Victor in his first shift. And you know, obviously the scoring kind of tailed off a little bit from there, but they were throwing the kitchen sink at him. And I actually thought for the most part in this game, the spurs got really good shots. When we are taking questions later, I'll check synergy to see if they upload the shooting numbers yet, because I would venture to guess the spurs shot very poorly on wide open threes in this game. It felt like Devin Vassell and Julian Champagne in particular got a lot of really good looks that they just missed in this game. And so, you know, the truth of the matter is, is Victor's two way impact when you factor in just overall how much he helps a team on offense and how much he helps the team on defense. He's already the best player in the world. Now, basketball games aren't dense, aren't that aren't that simple. And there's a lot to get into in terms of like, well, okay, what if the game slows down late? What if there's a specific matchup that puts you in a different spot and it highlights a different part of your game. And that's the case for a guy like Shay, right? Is that he is quite literally indomitable as a half court offensive engine now. And there's no way you could take him out of it. Oh, if you double team him, the he's able to get rid of the basketball and just create these four on threes that his team can consistently capitalize on. Right. Like you can't. There's really no individual defender that can make life difficult on him. He's not vulnerable to zones or any sort of specific defensive scheme. And so even though he may not have the overall two way impact that Victor has, he has this singular trait that elevates him in a way that doesn't matter what type of game you're playing, it doesn't matter what the situation is. This thing is always a factor. And that's going to be the, the fun part. If we get to see San Antonio vs. OKC in the next round, it's going to be this. The best two way impact player in the league versus the best half court offensive engine in the league. And even if you just simplify, take Wemby's offense out of the picture, seeing the best defensive player maybe ever versus the best offensive player in the league right now is going to be such an interesting matchup and I just can't wait to potentially see those guys play each other if San Antonio can close this thing out. But to be very clear, if you're just simply saying which player in the NBA impacts winning on the offensive end and the defensive end as like an aggregate, you know, score if you want to. Just like, if you think of it like 2K and you're just giving like a rating out of a scale of 1 to 100 and offensive impact and defensive impact and you just totaled those two into one number. Nobody's touching that guy. He is. The way that the spurs change as a basketball team when he's off the floor, on both ends of the floor is. It's appalling to see and it just is an emphasis on just how incredible he is as a basketball player. And I just thought tonight was it like between, like if you watch game three and then you watch game two when he's out and then you watch game fi. Or excuse me, you watch game three and then you watch game four when he's out and then you watch game five. It's just this perfect juxtaposition of what he does on both ends of the floor and how, how, how easy he makes life for this basketball team. The, this, the guards were really the, the second story tonight for the Spurs. I thought, I thought Darren Fox in the two man game with, with Wemby generated great shots all night. You know, Steph Castle and Dylan Harper each kind of had their own minutes. Dylan Harper was like these kind of interesting big plays, like offensive rebound, put backs underneath the basket. 10 rebounds in this game, five offensive rebounds. He had a run there in the third quarter where he was just elevating underneath the rim and getting offensive rebounds in traffic. And the, for Steph Castle, you know, he goes on that run. He kind of got off to an ugly start in this game. He had some sloppy turnovers, he was missing some shots. But he had a run there in the third quarter where he got going in ball screens with Victor. And it just was this thing where as soon as he started to turn the corner. No one can knock him off balance. And then he just gets up off of two feet and dunks everything. And like, we talked about this concept a lot with Jalen Duran. When you have strength and you have, like, a low center of gravity for your position, which Steph does compared to most, like guard forward hybrids in terms of their size and build, he has a very low center of gravity. It's very difficult if he's, like, just standing in a defensive stance. It'd be hard to, like, push him over if you were, like, pushing on his shoulder or pushing on his chest. Right. You know, there. The. The. A counter example to that would be, like, a guy like Dear and Fox, for instance, right? Like, he's a little skinny. He doesn't have, like, a. A very strong base. Right. You look at, like, a Julius Randall. He's got, like, a very strong base, a very low center of gravity. You look at a guy like Jaden McDaniels, he's a little bit high, upright, higher center of gravity, right? Well, Jaylen Duran with the Pistons is a textbook example of one of those low center of gravity kind of strong players. But he never has his base under control. He's always playing in this, like, rumbling, stumbling, one foot after the other type of style that, like, it just takes a little bit of a push here, a little bit of a bump there to knock him off balance. And now he's throwing up some bullshit at the rim that has no chance of going in. Whereas with Steph Castle, and I think Julius Randle's an example of player who plays off of two feet really well. But, you know, Steph Castle, he's constantly in control of his base. He has nice wide feet. He's jumping off of two feet. He's coming to jump stops. Everything's off of pivots rather than running motions. So as a result, it's very difficult once he gets the angle on you.
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Hoops Tonight Host
And again, in pick and roll, you're
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Jason
going to get the angle. Wemby is such a difficult player to switch against because if you switch, all of a sudden he's got deep seal opportunities, he's got offensive rebound opportunities. Now you're giving a speed guard an opportunity to go to slow player. All he has to do is really get a shot up on the basket, and then Victor's going to probably get the offensive rebound. He's a very difficult player to switch. And so if you play him straight up and he's such a gifted screen and roll threat, that whoever's got the ball is Going to turn the corner, right? And so as soon as Steph turns the corner now he's in control of like that downward lane. And he just kind of takes his time methodically with his wide base and no one can dislodge him. And he just kind of works to his spot. And he's either going to dunk it or you're going to step up and he's going to have an opportunity to either throw the lob and throw the skip pass. And Victor's so good at the lob finishing that really the. The. The only thing you can do. And this is. This is the earliest phase of this. They're going to get better at this as time goes on. The only thing you can really do is throw the. The. The. The low man or the. The ball screen defender at Stephen to get him to not shoot. And you have to tag Wemby. And so you're defending the screen action 3 on 2. It's the best thing you can do because then at least you force him to throw a skip pass. And maybe you have a game like tonight where the spurs don't shoot super well from three. That's really your best option. And that's why the spurs attempted the most corner threes in the history of the NBA this year. That's why Victor's role gravity has become such an underrated trait in the league right now. It just. He. You can't. There's no real answer. When you have that big and strong of a ball handler working downhill, who's going to dunk if you don't get. If you don't show on him with the screen defender and if you don't tag the roller, Wemby's going to dunk or get the offensive rebound. So it's. It's. It's a. Just an extremely difficult action to guard. And the spurs went to variations of that with Fox and Castle over and over again tonight and just got great looks. I thought whenever Wemby was on the floor against a very good Minnesota Timberwolves defense, the spurs just got really good looks. And that really is the dynamic that's going to be difficult for Minnesota to flip. Like I always talk about this when we're. When we finish a game, I leave the game and I go, is this sustainable through shot quality? You know, variance to me is lower on the list, but how high is it on the list in each unique situation? Like, okay, they had all really good process and the shots just didn't fall. Then Cavs game two against the Pistons or was it, you know, the shots didn't fall, but these process things weren't great leading up to it. That's more difficult to sustain over a larger sample. You know, I, I, I've usually find it's very rare. That variance is just the number one thing for me. It's usually lower, but it kind of moves up and down that list based on the, the type of process that leads into the shot. And I just thought this was a game where the spurs got really great shots, didn't even shoot particularly well on him. Victor shut him down when he was on the floor with his rim protection and versatility on defense, and they won by 30. And that's really been the dynamic the entire time that Victor's been on the floor in this series. And it's going to be really hard for Minnesota to win in Game 6 unless Victor takes himself out of the game again. And that's why I think San Antonio is going to end up closing this thing out in six. Last guy I wanted to shout out was Keldon Johnson. You know, he kind of had a little bit of a rough series, but he just, just again, he's such a motor guy that he's just going to keep going at you. And he just found a way to get a little bit of a rhythm through some big plays that he made. He had that huge blocked shot, if you remember, in that like early part of the third quarter run. And then he like drove down and got a foul on Nas Reed to get to the line. And it just, you could just see him just screaming at the crowd or he had an and one, a little transition, little finish in and one. And like that really, to me is the thing where Kelden's at his best is like when he's kind of forcing the issue against players that have size on him. You're like, you know, like, I get it. You got a decent look at a lefty hook there on Julius Randall in the first half. But it's like not a great shot and like, Julius is bigger than you. Why are you trying to bully Julius? You know what I mean? Like, that's where he can get a little bit over his skis. He'll occasionally take a bad three point shot that I don't like. But when the dude is like defending, rebounding and attacking in transition and like, okay, slashing against a small player who's not athletic, athletic enough to handle him, that's when I think Kelden's at his best, right? So like, I just thought this was a game where he played really well within himself. Found his rhythm and confidence through making defensive plays and just kind of rode that to confidence on the offensive end of the floor. He had two steals and a block in this game, was plus 17 in 22 minutes. Big win for the spurs on the Timberwolf side. Again, like when you see, you could see like little pockets of where it works, right? Like when they get Julius tied up with Rudy with Victor underneath the basket, there are opportunities to get shots up on the basket. When they drive and kick to the weak side corner, there's a lot of plays where like Victor's at the rim, but he's leaving Rudy and you know, Julian Champagne will like come in and tag Rudy and the corner skip is there and like when they execute that driving kick perfectly well, they can get usually a decent shot, right? But the spurs have been pretty good at like keeping Wemby around the basket, rotating out of their double teams from Anthony Edwards. The Anthony Edwards double teams continue to generate basically nothing for, for this Timberwolves team. And like part of that is the Wemby at the rim behind it of it all, which allows him to kind of like compensate for any sort of like middle flash plus the, the, the basket. That's the scary thing if you're okay. See, right, because the thing that OKC was able to do, just think those last two plays against the Lakers last night, it's Hartenstein slips, he catches in the middle and it creates this two on one dynamic with Chet in the dunker spot that the Lakers didn't have the athletes to compensate for. Victor is the one guy who can like quite literally shut down the entire. Like just imagine there was like a point underneath the rim and there was like a solid 15 foot radius in every direction going around. Wemby's just got that area on lockdown. And so when the pass comes out of those double teams, there's a pretty long opportunity for a Spurs guard who's usually fast to rotate and then the advantage is gone. And that's what's going to be so fascinating about seeing that dynamic against the Thunder. Like if, if the spurs and we, we talked about this a little bit last night, I'm not even sure if they're going to trap. Certainly not to start. But like if Shea does get going and they decide to decide to start trapping, that's going to be the really interesting kind of like next phase of that chess match is like this team can just successfully trap without giving up a high quality shot on the weak side out of it. Because of how Wemby kind of trolls the entire paint. But like the Ant double teams aren't resulting in anything. The every once in a while they can get some sort of play where they tie Wimby up underneath the basket, but it's not something they can sustain. Yes, there are these defense to transition sequences, but they're really struggling to guard any ball screen with Victor Weyama right now. Like, this is one of those ones where like, I'm not seeing a lot of solutions here. I'm not seeing a lot of like, oh, they just got to do more of this and they'll be fine. Or like, oh, this guy just has to play better. It's like you're asking Ant to shoot over double teams or for them to score out of that rotation dynamic that I just really went over. You're asking for Julius and Nas and Jaden to attack the basket against a guy that has that area completely under control. Like there's there. Other than that burst against the the spurs bench in the late first quarter, there was no sustained offensive success from the Timberwolves in this game. Not even like a, oh, here's a five minute span where they looked like they couldn't guard us. I'm not seeing a lot of solutions here. And again, like their best Hope in Game 6 is that they just have the defensive effort of a lifetime that sparks a lot of defense to transition opportunities. Because as long as Wemby's down there, they're having a hard time to score. And when Wemby's on offense, they still haven't really figured out a way to stop him from getting great shots. All right, let's bring Jackson up here and let's take some questions from the chat.
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Hoops Tonight Host
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- [25:37]
Chad
let's do it. What is going on? Chad? We're going to start with a couple super chat questions as always. First, one super chat from Jaden. He says there's, there's limitations with an Ant LED team. You will never be as good as Shay or Wemby because of his unwillingness to be a consistent defensive weapon. Plus he's just not a reliable offensive engine. Jason, your thoughts?
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Jason
I am going to say the same thing with Ant that I said about Austin in the sense that like I just don't think this playoff run is the one to have the sweeping declarations about his career, like basketball process in general is, is nonlinear. I was talking about this with Jackson cause I've been, I've been working on some stuff with my shot and Jackson has just become one of my best friends and I'm always like texting him about like different things that I'm working on and like you know how one day, you know, my shooting numbers will look like this and then the next day it goes like this and then sometimes it's in the middle, and then sometimes it goes back down and it's like, it's. It's a very non. It's a non linear process. And, and that's just the way basketball development has always been. There is no, like, oh, you work on stuff and you just ascend into greatness without ever dipping down. And sometimes those variables actually are things like, oh, I'm a little banged up or I'm not feeling while I'm sick. Sometimes those variables are, I, you know, I suffer an injury. Sometimes those variables are, you know, something with your, like, your, your schedule. Right. Like, I think with Ant, like, there's just this huge variable that he was dealing with, this huge jumper's knee, runner's knee, whatever it was situation that flowed directly into him taking a bunch of time off right before the postseason to him coming back and looking like a shell of himself against Denver before suffering like an injury that was pretty gnarly looking on television into forcing his way back early and kind of playing his way into rhythm with a bulky knee. Like, one of the most. What if I had to ask you guys what the most dynamic part of Anthony Edwards's game is? What would you guys say? It's his explosion to the rip. And I thought, do you remember that play in the. It was in the second half. It was one of those plays where they kind of managed to seal Wemby where it looked like he had a lane to go up and dunk and he laid it up. I don't know if you saw that one, but like, I remember when I saw that, I was like, you're like, last season, this time would be still. He'd still be hanging on the rim. Like, like, it's just, it's just, it's very clear to me that he's a shell of himself in terms of his athleticism right now. So I just, I don't think now is the time to be like, oh, well, Ant just can't do it. It's like the dude literally is being like, heroically battling through a knee injury that would keep most players out for two months to be out there with his team and try to help them win. Like, I, I just, I just don't think now is the time. And a lot of this is like, like, we broke down with Victor Wembanyama. Like, shake your Alexander is getting all these praises sung about him for getting double teamed all the time. Ants getting double teamed all the time. The difference is he's got a center that literally can't finish in Traffic like it can't catch and fit like that. Rudy's catching and finishing was a huge problem tonight. Yeah. You know, whereas the Hardenstein and Chet are paying those off with high low sequences over and over again. And you have Victor women Yama basket. Like I, I just don't think, I don't think it's quite that simple. Like Shay is a way better passer than Ant. I want to be clear. That's not what I'm trying to say. But I just, I, I'm not leaving this series going like, oh well aunt just never going to get it done.
- [29:01]
Chad
Yeah. I also think that because NBA players are getting to be so much better at such a, at so much of a younger age, we have a bit of a rush to make declarations or just say a guy can or can't do it. Like Anthony Edwards is 24 years old. When Shay Goedich Alexander was 24 years old, he, it was his first all star appearance and he was a top. He got 50 MVP voting. Like he had probably had a better season that season than Ant has had so far. But Ant is 24 right now. Like we, it's. We. We shouldn't be able to. When Jake lich Alexander was 24, he was struggling with double teams period point blank. He was struggling with double team 24. So it's, it's a little bit. And Anthony Edwards has been to multiple conference finals at this point already at 24. When Jason Tatum was 24, people were asking the same type of question, right? Can he get it done? Is he's made it to the conference finals a couple times, never gotten over the hump. Or maybe by that point they had made it to the first finals and, and not one in the finals. But the point is it's easy to make sweeping statements about guys before they get it done because not it's hard to get it done. But he's only 24 years old, guys.
- [30:00]
Jason
Yeah. And I think like, I do think that there are obvious differences between Shay and, and like I do think that Shea has like a little bit more refined touch. I do think that Shea has like a better basketball brain, but also he doesn't have ants tools. And so the, the thing is is like if aunt figures some of this stuff out, like he has the potential to be amazing. And like I just, I just again like I, I look at this year as like Ant is. Have. Is battling through something that has been unusual and unorthodox and it, I, I just think rhythm is so important under normal circumstances and it's just very hard to build a rhythm when you're dealing with what he's been dealing with for sure.
- [30:47]
Chad
Next Super Chat question from real since day one, he said, since when are fouls on lobs not considered shooting fouls? When we got fouled on like five alley oops and he never got any free throws. It was inbounded after. Confused me a bit.
- [31:00]
Jason
That's a really good question. I actually don't. And the reason why I say that is, like, I actually don't know what the rule book says or how refs delineate between a catch versus a catch and finish. Yeah, but also, there's never been a player who has a catch and finish radius the way that Victor Womenyama does. So it's just a highly unusual circumstance. My guess is that it has something to do with like the tuck rule in the NFL where it, like, it probably has to do with the forward motion where, like, if you foul him in the process of him going to catch the ball versus if you follow him after he's caught it and he's in the process of putting it towards the basket. It's probably something like that, but I honestly don't know.
- [31:39]
Chad
Yeah. And I mean, I think the, the most basic version of it is if they're following him before he has the ball, I don't think it could be a shooting foul. Like, if they're following him before he actually has full possession of the ball, there's just no way it could be a shooting foul. Now he probably does. He probably is owed a few, but
- [31:53]
Jason
I feel like he drew a million fouls and I. The. The synergy stuff has not updated yet. So if it does before the end of the night, I'll show you guys. But they. They actually track how many fouls a player draws, too. It felt like Wemby drew 12 valves 13 files tonight.
- [32:06]
Chad
I mean, it's a different. It's a very different type of player stylistically. But after the discourse around how he was being officiated and all the contact before the. In the games leading up to the elbow after. Over the last couple days, I've been thinking about it and it feels a little bit just, you know, I'm not trying to say it's quite this far, but it feels like a discount version of Shaq a little bit to me.
- [32:25]
Jason
You're right.
- [32:25]
Chad
It's like he's getting absolutely mauled on all of these plays, and if you really called a foul on every single one, the other team would just foul
- [32:31]
Jason
out, out one of my favorite plays of the game was. I think it was in the first half, but he was. He got a pick and roll switch again, which was one of the things that we saw quite a bit tonight. And he deep sealed Jaden McDaniels and they throw the post entry to him. He's getting fouled. But, like, when they. When he does a good job, ceiling, they throw the high point kind of to. To Wemby's left shoulder, and he goes to grab it, and as he's going to grab it, like, Jaden, like, gets up underneath him and just shoves him as hard as he can, grabs a handful of jersey and like, untucks his jersey in the process and, like, knocks Wemby down. And when Wemby goes down, they call the foul, and he just starts clapping. And I thought that was a cool play because it was like. I thought what it would have felt like to me, and obviously I didn't hear what Wendy said or obviously I can't read his mind, but it felt like Wemby was sitting there clapping, going like, yeah, I'm about to foul every last one of you dudes out. Like that. That's literally, like. It's like you guys have no choice but the hack because you cannot guard me. That's literally. That's. That's what it felt like watching that specific play.
- [33:35]
Chad
We got a super chat from Canton guard Mike. He said wanted to get your opinion on team building using the Clippers. Do you think that with the Clippers pick, they should go best player available, which seems like a cuff who overlaps with Garland, or pick a player that's got a better fit or just trade back and try to add more draft capital.
- [33:53]
Jason
So much of that depends. It's a complicated conversation because so much of that depends on, like, what you think you're gonna get with the player that. That you're. You're planning with the pick that you trade back for. So let's say, for example, they're like, okay, well, we really. What we really need is a center. And so we really like. You know, let's say that they think that they really like, who's the kid from. From Houston?
- [34:23]
Chad
Kingston Flemings.
- [34:25]
Jason
Chris and act.
- [34:26]
Chad
Oh.
- [34:26]
Jason
So like, let's say that they're like, we really like Kristen act out of. Out of Houston. The big dude. The. I think he was a lefty, if I remember correctly, but I'm not big on the draft, so you guys can all make fun of me if I'm wrong. But they. Let's say that they're into Kristenak and that's the guy that's projected to go kind of like late lottery. Like if you're sitting there and you're like, we have the center we want, this is the dude. Then yeah, you trade back because you can get value for that. You can get, you know, whatever that a team that's trading up to number five is probably going to give you at least one future first in addition to the later lottery pick that you plan on using to get the center that you think you're is of the future. Right. But like, let's say you're like, I don't really like any of these centers and none of these dudes really fit me as like a. This is the guy who's going to start for us. Like, you know, let's say like I'll, let's use. Yoxalindenberg is actually a different example. Like, whatever. Like this is the guy that we think is going to be our power forward for the future. Then yeah, you trade back and you see if you can get an additional asset for Acuff. Because like a lot of it just has to do with what you specifically value in your scouting. Like if you think Darius Acuff is the franchise altering talent, then you try to trade Darius Garland for like, I don't know, Wendell Carter Jr. Or something like that. Like you, you make some sort of move for the position that you actually view as your long term solution. And so, so much of that is like up in the air because it depends on their scouting, which guys they value, which guys they value league wide, so on and so forth. To me, do I think Darius Garland and Ben Matheran is the backcourt that's going to win in the Western Conference? No, I don't. So I would personally draft Acuff and I would trade Garland because I, I like, I, I like. Do you think Garland and Matherin matches up well with Shea and A.J. mitchell? Wow. Do you think they match up well with Dylan Harper and Steph Castle? No. Like, do you think they match up well with Darren Peterson and Keonte George?
- [36:38]
Chad
Maybe. We don't know.
- [36:39]
Jason
Maybe. Do you think they match up well with Luka Doncic and Austin Reeves? You know, like this, these are, these are your, the, that's the state that you're going against. So like at a certain point for me, I, I would, I would take a shot on a guy like Acuff and instead of putting my eggs in the Darius Garland basket and I think I legitimately think Darius can fetch a little Bit of a haul this summer. Not like a Hall haul, but, like, I think you. I think he's a positive asset, like, a clear positive asset, and you got somebody to attach a pick to him for James Harden. So, like, to me, flipping Garland and keeping a cuff is the way that I would go.
- [37:15]
Chad
On the broadcast, the end of the game, Reggie Miller was saying that he thinks that maybe the Timberwolves should start Nas Reed instead of Rudy Gobert. What do you think about that sort of potential major adjustment?
- [37:29]
Jason
If you're desperate, it's more about staggering. Right. Like, you're just getting rolled when. When Wemby's on the floor. And so maybe it's as simple as, like, you start Nas Reed and then you play Gobert in the cornet minutes. You know, just kind of go that way. I think it's worth. I mean, at this point, like, it's. Like I said earlier, I don't see a solution. So, like, at this point, you just got to start trying. Yeah.
- [37:53]
Chad
I don't hate it, not in this game, but it does. I forget which game it was. Maybe it was game three that I felt like the small ball lineup was, like, definitely creating better looks offensively, and it did feel like it was sort of getting the blender going a little bit more.
- [38:10]
Jason
I agree. That was the close game.
- [38:11]
Chad
Yeah. Yeah. So I think. I mean, they're desperate, and I. And it's not like Rudy's been exactly a Wemby stopper outside of game one when I do think he did a really good job.
- [38:21]
Jason
Rudy was great in game one.
- [38:22]
Chad
He was awesome in game one and kind of on both ends of the floor. He was awesome on game one.
- [38:25]
Hoops Tonight Host
Yeah.
- [38:26]
Chad
But since then, it hasn't. And I thought the way that Reggie Miller kind of described it on the broadcast was a little silly. He was like, if Rudy's not going to be able to do anything in the post, it's like. Well, I'm not sure.
- [38:36]
Jason
It's not about the post.
- [38:37]
Chad
Not quite about. About the post, but, like, I get the point you're making. You're trying to make, but not really quite about the post. But if he's not going to be effective on defense, then it's like, kind of, what's the point at that point against Wemby.
- [38:53]
Jason
He had a bad shift against Cornette, too, in this game.
- [38:56]
Chad
Right.
- [38:56]
Jason
So, like, I. Yeah, I just. You know, Rudy. Rudy is such an interesting player because so much of the conversation centers around defense when that's just never been the problem. Right. It's like when the dude's catching and finishing. He's like literally one of the best players in the league, but he's always just struggled to catch and finish against the best interior defenses. And it's one thing when you're going against Jokic and it's just a whole other battle when you're going against a really good interior defense.
- [39:20]
Chad
For sure. We got a super chat from the homie Muvsy. He said, have you noticed how many Thunder players like J, Mac and AJ are using the bump to midi move more often? Do you think it's a Shea influence thing or just a more common move in the NBA that's sort of gaining traction?
- [39:40]
Jason
I think that in general that is like one of the best ways to get any mid range jump shot. I think I used to talk about this in the post as the difference between like some of the post fades that I liked with LeBron versus some of the post fades I disliked with LeBron or like why I think every post fade for Kawhi Leonard is a great shot. Like when you bump first and you dislodge, it also can like kind of help you establish your base when like, it almost like stops your forward momentum in a lot of ways. And if you get that sort of contact and separation, it just is a much higher percentage shot. And now yes, we're seeing guards do that. And like I have been consistent with this from the beginning. I have no problem with like the bump and like not the full extension, but the bump and like the little bit of like that, that like chicken wing push off. I've never had a problem with that. I just have had a problem with that being uncalled and then going by the book with the defender who's trying to like fight, fight off that sort of like little push off. But I think, you know, we talked earlier about like the low center of gravity piece. Like even a guy like Darren Fox, who doesn't really have a low center of gravity strength advantage, he's won some battles against Jaden because he's just lower than Jaden and he drives into his space and bumps him, gets that separation. And even though Jaden has the length and athleticism to recover, he's just too off balance because Fox bumps him like that. And so yeah, it's just kind of like the, you know, the copycat league. Everyone, you know, every young player, I talk about this all the time. Every young basketball player watches the best basketball players in the world and tries to pick little pieces from their game and, and try to add it to Theirs. And it's just been really fascinating to like, see like that because I think Dylan Harper kind of does this move sometimes too, where it. You just. You use your speed to get into the defender's chest, stop on a dime, give them just that little bit of a chicken wing elevated to an easy on balance jump. Sh.
- [41:39]
Chad
Okay, next question. Speaking of Dylan Harper, question is, how do you see the spurs managing the minutes between Fox and Harper next season? Harper has been so good this postseason. I wonder where that leaves Fox.
- [41:52]
Jason
I just don't think this is an issue. I actually think it's more likely that they end up like, the way I look at it is this is going to be a team where next season you have four players splitting the minutes for three spots being the 1, 2, and the 3. Like, if you. If you look at it like, with how Devin. Like, this is the advantage of Victor Womenyama. Victor Womenyama allows you to play three guard lineups effectively on defense. And I think it extends deeper than that in the sense that to all of their credits to Dylan Hart. Like, Dylan Harper had 10 rebounds tonight, guys. Dylan's a great rebounder. Steph Castle's a great rebounder. Fox is a scrapper. Vsell is a scrapper. When you have these four key guards and they're all just like scrappers, you can get away with three guard looks. So like, I've just never watched one of these games and been like, oh, I. I don't think these guys will be able to coexist together. There is a little bit of like a, oh, we need champagne out there for catch and shoot. That you'll see. But even then, it's like, Harper's gonna improve as a catch and shoot player, and so will Steph Castle. And as the years go by, that just won't be part of the calculus anymore. And like, that's like, I think to. To kind of put a bow on it. Like, that's the. The next step for them to be able to make that formula work is just all those dudes have to improve is catch and shoot players. But I think they all play big enough and scrappy enough that in the context of playing with Wemby, they're not going to have a size issue. Playing three of those four dudes at a time and then just do a basic bit of math. That's what, 140, 144 minutes between the three positions. Right? So 144 positions split four ways. You're literally talking about over 35 minutes a game. So I just don't foresee it being an issue for those guys to all play together and coexist together. If anything, you know, as you manage workload for them during the season, it'll just be even easier. And that's where guys like Carter Bryant are still really valuable. Keldon Johnson, Julian Champagne, so on and so forth.
- [44:03]
Chad
One more question about the spurs and then move on to a couple of other big bigger picture questions. Right. We got a Nick's question as well, a question about Wemby and his two way impact. The question is Wemby's two way impact is why I believe he is the mvp. The box scorer does not tell the full story with him. Why do you think that SGA is the clear MVP this season?
- [44:24]
Jason
I think that the conversation surrounding Wemby's minutes load is a valuable point against him. I don't think it's enough of a valuable point to put him below Luca or to put him below Jokic. So that's why he was number two for me and I think that had the spurs past OKC in the standings. For me it matters to have the best record in the league. That's a big feather in your cap. It's not the end all be all, but it's the feather in your cap. If you would have been the best record in the league and the most valuable per minute player in the league, I think I would have leaned towards Wemby. But there's a certain amount of like shade just like literally carried that team through a bunch of injuries this year and was just available all the time, played big minutes every game and had the best team in the league. Like to me it's not so much that Wemby didn't have a case he did, it's just Shay's case was better.
- [45:15]
Chad
Yeah. And I also think that as we've talked about and as history sort of bears out, the best player in the world is not always exactly the same as the mvp. It's just. It's just not. And so I think that even and now I still think Shay is probably has the reins on the best player in the world thing right now. But even if the spurs win the title next year, we can all say that Wemby's the best player in the world. It doesn't automatically mean he's going to win MVP next year. Does not automatically mean he's going to deserve MVP next year. The mvp, like it or not, is just a is a measuring of an 82 game regular season.
- [45:48]
Jason
It's that simple. It's in even then it's like, it's always a combination of a bunch of factors. And so it's always frustrating for me in any MVP case when someone hones in on one thing because it's just never that way. It's like, well, this guy's the best player in the league. It's never worked that way. Well, this guy's been the most valuable player for his team. Well, it doesn't necessarily work that way. Well, this guy's played the most minutes. Well, it doesn't necessarily work that way. Well, you know, like you can dig into all these different things and like it's always been a combination of those things for me. I've always just. I, I have my formula which is that kind of three step method. Who's the best player, who's the best player on the best team, who's the most valuable player. And like that works for me. But that's not the same system that everybody uses. I don't use any catch all metrics. I know a lot of voters who use like literally like lean heavily on catch all metrics for this kind of thing. So like it is, it is very different across the board. And that's why they have so many voters, you know, and like there are a lot of voters who vote that are like legitimately biased towards certain markets like that have like legit MVP votes and that goes all around the league, not any individual fan base. So like, it's just, it just, it's you guys. I talk about MVP because it's my job, but like in the world of the NBA, it is so far down on the things I care about it. Have you guys noticed we haven't done an all NBA teams show? Like, I just don't care. I just don't care. Like to me it's so ethereal. It's so inconsistent in the criteria. It's so like I, I personally would make like if, if the NBA were to honor me with the vote, would I give it serious thought? Of course, because that now becomes a responsibility. But it is not my responsibility right now. And frankly I've just never been that interested in it because of the fact that it has so much noise and it's so inconsistent with the way like I thought it was like batshit. That con knipple got as many rookie of the year votes that he did this year. Like batshit. I just could not have disagreed more with that. But like, you know, that's, that's just kind of the nature of the business right now. We get so hung up on specific things and narratives each individual year. And it's just kind of tough. It becomes like a runaway freight train in a lot of ways.
- [48:00]
Chad
Couple more questions. We got a question, a Knicks question from Kaylin. He said, with the Knicks not knowing who they're playing next and having a bit of a break, how would you use that break slash? What concepts and counters can they build out? They build on with the new Cat sort of point center offense,
- [48:18]
Jason
I think playing would be good. I think that it's always a little bit of a mistake to just stop playing. So like, maybe it's like an every other day scrimmage kind of thing. For the record, guys, they're not gonna have to wait that much longer. Like, I would imagine that. I would imagine that there's gonna be a Sunday start if the series end on Friday, and I would imagine we'll have a Tuesday start if the series end on Sunday. So like, a lot of this ends depends on just how quickly these series end cast. Pistons, I think, actually has a really good shot to go seven. I think that series has a much better chance to go seven than Wolves spurs, for example. But, and that's probably how this ends. It probably ends with okc, OKC San Antonio playing on like Sunday or Monday and then the, the Eastern Conference finals starting on Tuesday. But like, stay active, play five on five. That way Mike Brown. Because like, the worst thing that could happen for the the Knicks is them slipping into old habits in playing every once in a while and allowing Mike to kind of keep his thumb on the scale, so to speak matters. I'm gonna be honest with you, Kaylin. Like, they're playing nearly perfect basketball right now on offense. Like, there's not a whole lot like, of like, oh, I wish they would do this better. Like, I mean, Cat's playing the best I've ever seen him play. Jalen Brunson is literally becoming like this hybrid between like the modern scoring guard and like Steph Curry with how much he's working off the ball and screening for others. And Mikhail Bridges has found his best rhythm of the postseason. You know, obviously we'll see with og, but they're leaning on their bench more than ever. Like, I, I. It's kind of like one of those, it's very rare that I have like a 10 out of 10, no notes kind of perspective on things, but that's how I feel about the Knicks right now.
- [49:55]
Chad
Okay, last question for the night. This draft class is upcoming. Draft class is loaded. Last year's obviously has panned out really well to start so far with Cooper Flag Conquer, Dylan Harper and Vijay Edgecombe at the just at the top. The four at the top. Do you think just predicting right now, just sort of based on vibes that the 25 class or the 26 class will be the best draft class?
- [50:17]
Jason
You know, I. Did you see that screenshot of the top of the 2025 class? I just kind of like listed. It was going around the other day. No, it's like all good players. There's not, there's not a, like a lot of like bust potential in that top of that class. The difference is though is like VJs really good, Khan's really good. You know there are good players in that mix. There are like legitimately, at a minimum, I would consider like five potential franchise altering talents at the top of this draft. Like, I personally am not as high on Cam Boozer as everyone else is. That doesn't mean that I like have some sort of super passionate opinion there. You guys know I don't do as much work on the draft, but like I've watched him a lot and I don't see it like I, I, this is a Dude who had 17 turnovers and 10 assists in the tournament. This is a guy who barely made over half his layups in the tournament. This is a guy that like, I, I just, I just don't see that like franchise altering talent. I could be wrong. This is not something that I do anywhere near as much prep on as some of the other guys who cover the draft. I'm pretty high on Darren Peterson and AJ debonsta. I do think Darius Acuff has the potential to be one of the best cards in the league. You know, the Caleb Wilson thing is like all ethereal to me because it's all just like workout tape. And then you watch him and he's like really slow in his shuttle drill and really show slow in his lane agility drill and like can't shoot in his spot shooting drill and like, so there's a lot of like with him. It's, he's probably the highest ceiling, lowest floor type candidate that you see in the group. But like there's just of the, I would say that like all five of those dudes have higher ceilings than Con Knipple, you know. So like that's to me the difference between this draft and that draft.
- [52:12]
Chad
Yeah, this, this draft definitely has more higher upside guys and, but we do and we have the benefit of the seeing one rookie season obviously of the last year's class. But I gotta say, Cooper Flag has exceeded. I was very, very high on Cooper Flag and he has already dramatically, I would say, exceeded my expectations. I was just not expecting this dude to be getting 40 point games in his rookie season. Just. No, he's unbelievable. If you told me he was the best player out of either of these two draft classes career wise, even over to Bansa, who I think is a better, you know, prospect coming into the draft process, it would not surprise me at this point. He was so good this year.
- [52:50]
Jason
Totally agree. 10 out of 10 no notes rookie season. No, no Mr. Cooper flag. All right, guys, that is all we have for tonight. As always, we sincerely appreciate you guys for supporting us and supporting the show. We do have an episode coming out tomorrow. I was, I was just, I was trying to explore Chicago today, have a nice relaxing day with my wife. But I did see some of the like barstool guys coming after LeBron. So I wanted to talk a little bit about LeBron's Laker tenure, dig into some of the numbers, talk about like just my big picture thoughts on that era. And so I have a little video coming out tomorrow morning that will break that down. If you guys don't see that, then I will see you guys tomorrow night for game five of Pistons Cavs live on YouTube after the final buzz. Foreign.
- [53:37]
Podcast Announcer
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- [53:39]
Jason
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