← The Herd with Colin Cowherd
The Herd with Colin Cowherd
Hoops Tonight - Where Tyrese Haliburton, Jayson Tatum, Damian Lillard would rank in NBA if healthy
00:36:30
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Freddy Prinze Jr.
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We're breaking down SummerSlam, the biggest party of the summer on Wrestling with Freddy. From our bold picks to storyline breakdowns, we will discuss who walks out with gold, who shocks the night, and which matches steal the show we call the winners, the upsets and the chaos to expect. Plus whatever swerves nobody saw coming. Listen to Wrestling with Freddie as part of the Michael Tura Podcast Network, available on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.
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Unknown Host
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Freddy Prinze Jr.
Summer's here and with the kids home and off to camp, it's easy for moms to get lost in the shuffle. On Good Moms Bad Choices. We're making space to center ourselves with joy, rest and pleasure. Take the kids to camp. You know what? It was expensive, but I was also thinking, you have my kid. This is kind of priceless. Take her, feed her. Make core memories. I don't have to do anything. Main thing, I don't have to do any. To hear this and more. Listen to Good Mom's Bad Choices from Black Effect Podcast Network on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast.
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Maria Hinojosa
When I became a journalist, I was the first Latina in the newsrooms where I worked. I'm Maria Hinojosa. I spent my career creating journalism that centers voices who have been historically sidelined. From the most pressing news stories to deep cultural explorations, Latino USA is journalism with heart. Listen to Latino usa, the longest running Latino news and culture show in the United States. Hear it on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
- [02:08]
Jason Timpf
The Volume. All right, welcome to Hoops Tonight here at the Volume. Happy Friday, everybody. Hope all of you guys are having a great end to your week. It's our first mailbag that will be debating our player rankings. Lots of similar complaints down the list. Obviously, as you guys know, I'm leaving. I'm leaving. Effectively, I'm recording this on Tuesday the 29th. I'm leaving on the 30th to go to Alaska. So our first mailbag is going to be primarily focused on that first video. So like Final Cuts, questions about Cat and James Harden, complaints about Jamal Murray, some talks along those lines. And then a lot of people are wondering where the injured guys would have ranked guys like Tyrese Halliburton, Jason Tatum and Damian Lillard. So we'll talk a little bit about that for our mailbags that are going to cover the rest of our player rankings list. It won't be until two Fridays from now because obviously I'll still be in Alaska, but you'll have plenty of time to if you guys disagree with any of our player rankings at all, drop them in the mailbag questions and we'll get to them in our Friday debate mailbags over the course of the rest of the summer. You guys know the drill before we get started. Subscribe to the Hoops Tonight YouTube channel so you don't miss any more of our videos. Follow me on twitter_jason lt so you guys don't miss show announcements. Don't forget about our podcast feed. Wherever you get your podcasts under Hoops Tonight. It's also super helpful if you leave a rating and a review on that front. Jackson's doing great work on our social media feeds, Twitter, Instagram, Facebook and TikTok. Make sure you guys follow us there. And last but not least, keep dropping those mailbag questions like we saw, like we talked about earlier in the YouTube comments so we can get to them in our Friday mailbags over the course of the rest of the summer. All right, let's talk some basketball. So a couple of similar questions like this. Here's one. I totally understand why you would leave someone like Tyrese Halliburton off this list, but I also have to say I'm a little bit frustrated with it because I think he made some real strides this season, particularly in the playoffs. Can we just get a general sense of where he would rank if he went into the season healthy? Because I'm really curious if you would rank him top 15 or top 10. Similarly, I had someone ask about Tatum in Damian Lillard as well. So obviously I'm not going to reveal the top part of my list and talk about like where they rank in respect to other players because that would kind of spoil the whole version, the whole reason why we're doing this list. But what I will do is I will tell you guys where I would place all of these three guys strictly by number going into next season. If there was no Achilles tear and they were going into next season at 100%, Jason Tatum to me would be the easiest one. I had a really hard time with the number five Spot, I view there to be four players that are the clear top tier guys in the league. You can all probably guess who those guys are. We'll get to the order when we get there. And then after that you fall into that second tier superstars. And kind of what I've viewed as the. The differentiator is like the top tier guys are just like consistently night to night at that top tier level. Whereas the next tier, for whether whatever reason, if it's because they're just old or they've had really bad injury luck over the years, or maybe they're too young and so they're kind of sporadic in their quality of play just simply because they're inconsistent young basketball players. All those players can reach the top tier of superstar play, but they're inconsistent in one reason or another. And I think Tyree, I think Jason Tatum very clearly to me is in between those two groups. He still has these frustrating moments like he fell apart in the playoffs in fell apart as a jump shooter in the playoffs, in the title run or last year he was like so good. And then in the first couple games of the Knick series, he's like abysmally bad. He's just not quite as consistent as the four guys above him. But there's also no way you can argue any of the guys below him ahead of him anywhere at this point. So like, Jason Tatum to me is like the most obvious guy on the entire list aside from the number one spot. It's like you cannot argue anybody below him above him, and you can't argue anybody above him below him. He's like the most clear cut, obvious number five on this list if he's healthy. You guys will find out who I have at number five when we get there. Tyrese Halliburton would come in at number nine for me. Now, again, this is firmly on that next tier. These are all guys that you could argue him as high as number five or you could argue him as low as number 14. In my opinion. I'm extremely high on these, like, advantage creator offensive engine types like Tyrese Halliburton. Like, it's hard to explain, but above and beyond anything that would show up in Tyrese Halliburton's box scores. He is the engine that drives the Indiana Pacers. They play the way they play because of him. And so even though his scoring volume isn't anything exceptional, and obviously he puts up big assist totals, but the box score doesn't look like a guy who's like driving a ton of offense but he is flat out obviously driving a ton of offense for the Pacers, and I thought it was evident by the fact that they just really struggled to score when he was off the floor last year in the postseason. I just view him as one of the top tier offensive engines in the NBA. Even though the scoring volume isn't anything like exceptional, he somehow just finds a way to score enough to give his team what they need, including the craziest stretch of clutch shooting I've ever seen in my life. Hitting game winners in every single round of the playoffs. He's. He hit the first NBA Finals game winner since Michael Jordan did almost 30 years ago. So like it's, it's a total package of offense that is more than enough to be one of the great offensive engines in the league, which is going to put you very high on my list no matter what. I also think he's an underrated defender. He's fast, he does his job within the defensive scheme. He's got good length and active hands, so he gets lots of deflections and lots of steals. So if you give me like a bonafide top tier offensive engine with decent scoring chops and you can realistically build a good playoff defense around him, that's a top 10 player in the modern NBA. So I had Tyrese Halliburton at number nine. Dame. For me, this one's a little tougher. I. I think I'd put him right around number 20. He scored 30 points in just one of his last 17 games last season, including the playoffs. He was clearly losing some of that juice before the injury. He was already a bad defender, but he became a truly awful defender when he was in Milwaukee. I was just much lower on him than most people before the injury. And I love Dame. I'm a big believer in what he was when he was at his peak, but he just clearly is on the other side of the hill at this point. I would have had him down at number 20. A couple of questions along these lines like Cat, it was all NBA, so how did he not make your top 25 based on him making an Eastern Conference finals run? Here's another one I got. Cat not making the list is wild to me. There's no big in the east better than Cat, especially when you add the durability factor. Unless you just have Jokic as the only big in the top 25. You talk about not being able to scale up with him defensively in the playoffs, but Katt has been a major contributor in the best defense in the NBA. And locked up the MVP in a game seven. You also talk about his game six in Indiana. But before game six, there was a game three. The Knicks were on the brink of going down three. Oh, and Cat carried all by himself. That isn't scaling up in the biggest moment. I don't know what is. Murray ahead of Cat is ridiculous. So I want to get. I want to start with. I have a lot of people complaining about Jamal Murray and including Nuggets fans, which is the funny part. I think some of that stems from. There is a good amount of just, like, natural frustration with Jamal for not reaching his individual ceiling as a player the way that he should have. But I think it extends beyond to, like. I think there's a lot of, like, Yokich Stan behavior. And I've seen this with LeBron fans over the years. I've seen this with Steph fans over the years. They always, like, get super hypercritical of teammates and then never criticize their guy. That's like. And that's. That's the thing that gets kind of frustrating. You guys know I'm a big LeBron fan. I have ripped him many new ones on this show before, right? Like, there's a certain amount of, like, stand behavior where it's like, we're going to elevate our star by, like, being hypercritical of the other guy. And that's not to say that Jamal has some sort of, you know, perfect criticism proof resume. Of course he doesn't. He deserves some of the criticism that he gets. But I think that's why we see so much negativity from Nuggets fans regarding Jamal Murray. For me, like, I was start with, like, Murray and Cat, and then I'll talk a little bit about Cat individually. So putting Jamal Murray over Cat was a relatively easy decision for me. I think he's. I think he's a better playoff scorer. I just think he is. Even just last year, Jamal Murray had a higher point per game average and was roughly in the same neighborhood of efficiency in the high 50s. I think over the years, from playoff run to playoff run, he's been a more dependable playoff scorer. He's been, like, arguably the best clutch shot maker in the NBA over the last three playoff runs. Like, I think he's a better passer. I literally just think Jamal Murray is a better player than Carl Anthony Towns on offense and on defense. I don't think Jamal Murray is a good defender by any stretch of the imagination. But you can build a defensive scheme around Jamal. He's going to do his job. He's not a downright damaging defender. So like, honestly, putting Jamal Murray ahead of Carl Anthony Towns was kind of an easy decision for me. The discussion between him and James Harden gets a little bit more complicated, which we'll get to in a later question. But as I zoom in on Cat before we move on again, like, when you look at the Knicks in the big picture, there were some big moments, right? Like you're right, Kat had a massive comeback at the tail end of game three, right? That was an amazing performance from him beating the Celtics. That was a big moment for the Knicks in this postseason run. You know, obviously upsetting the team that I picked to win the title last year. But if you zoom out from that, it has been an incredibly disappointing season for the Knicks. They made all those moves and they wanted to be like one of the bonafide top tier contenders in the league. And they came right out the gates and got the living shit kicked out of them by Boston. All season long they underachieved on defense and pretty consistently were farther below in the standings than where they should have been. For a team as talented as they were, they were downright abysmal every single time they played one of the top teams in the league. What did they go like 08 or something like that against the the top three records in the NBA? Like they just got their butts kicked every time they played the good teams. I thought they were disappointing against Detroit. That's a team they should have disposed of in four or five games. They got dragged to six and every game was close. And go to the Pacer series, yeah, sure, you won game five, but you got ran out of the building basically the rest of the series. In large part because Carl Anthony Towns was downright damaging to your defensive scheme. That was not just a playoff series problem. That was not just an Indiana Pacers problem. That was not just a Detroit Pistons problem. That was an entire season from October all the way to late May when you got eliminated. Carl Anthony Towns was a problem for your ability to run that like coherent defensive scheme. There are certain things that are like out of your control, right? Like Jamal Murray's had some rough shooting performances over the years in the playoffs. There's a certain amount of that that is just basketball. Like, like guys like Carl Anthony Towns. You remember last year, two years ago in the Dallas Mavericks series in the conference finals where he just couldn't make a three point shot to save his life. That's just basketball, brother. That's basketball. Sometimes the jump shots don't go in. Sometimes they don't go in for Cat. Sometimes they don't go in for Jamal. That is literally just basketball. The floor, the basement of who you are as a basketball player is what happens when those shots aren't going in. And I can trust Jamal. Let's just say take a replacement level player. So if you could take Jamal in a replacement level center or Carl Anthony Towns in a replacement level guard, which, which player or which combination there do you have a better chance to build a functional playoff defense? A functional playoff, like, foundation floor. I like my chances with Jamal. Carl Anthony Towns is a. Is the type of player that kind of prevents you from ever winning the championship. If he is your, like, foundational center, you have to surround him with such an insane amount of talent to cover for his weaknesses on the back line. Defensively, the reckless hedges, the bad floor balance, the bad transition defense, getting just outrun up and down the floor by opposing bigs. Every single time. I was watching the Knicks tape last year, Carl Anthony Towns was front and center on their defensive issues. Even Jalen Brunson for the issues that he had. I never felt like Brunson was the breaking point of their defense the way that Carl Anthony Towns was. It's just. It's just too low of a floor. And again, I want to be clear about where we're arguing here. I had cat at 27, so it's not like I had him demonstrably lower than where you guys are arguing for him to be. I just think a guy like Jamal is a better basketball player for me to build around and to thrive in the sim. Like, in that. Like they're both players that we're going to consider to be number twos, right? Like, no one's winning a championship with Cat is your best player. No one's winning a championship with Jamal Murray as your best player. But in that secondary supporting star role, I like my chances with Jamal Murray more than I like him with Cat. It was pretty. It was actually kind of an easy decision for me. Okay, I'm going to give you guys one of the. The James Harden comments. And I have like, literally like six that I marked down here. Various people just saying that they viewed James Harden as a. As a better player than Jamal Murray. Nothing says summer like long days, clutch plays, and firing off a few bets on the game. All with DraftKings sportsbook. As the season heats up, so do the bats. And DraftKings sportsbook has you covered with live betting, home run props, odds boosts, and more. Whether you're chasing dingers or jumping in mid game, there's always action to be had. Never bet on baseball before. It's easy. Pick a guy to go yard, hammer some live odds mid game or just ride your squad and hope for the best. No spreadsheets, just vibes and dingers. My favorite guys to watch are always Aaron Judge and Shohei oh Time, especially if you're betting on home run props. Here's something special for first timers. New DraftKings customers bet $5 and get $150 in bonus bets instantly. Download the DraftKings sportsbook app and use code HOHOPS. That's H O O P S. That's code HOOPS for new customers to get $150 in bonus bets Instantly. When you bet just five bucks only on DraftKings, the crown is yours. GAMBLING PROBLEM Call 1-800- Gambler in York, New Call 877-8-Hopeny or text Hopeny to 467-369 in Connecticut. Help is available for problem gambling. Call 888-789-7777 or visit ccpg.org Please play responsibly on behalf of Boot Hill Casino and Resort in Kansas. 21 + age and eligibility varies by jurisdiction. Void In Ontario, new customers only. Bonus bets expire 168 hours after issuance. For additional terms and responsible gaming resources, see dkng co/audio. I'm Jake Hofer and this is Back 40, a limited series show on Wire to Hunt, part of Meat Eaters Podcast Network. Each episode I'll be asking eight whitetail hunting pros a focused, thought provoking question about hunting and land management. How do I hunt the best part of the farm with less than ideal aggregate access? Should you? That's what the real question is. Stand without good access is not a good stand. Listen to Back 40 on iHeartRadio app, Apple podcast or wherever you get your podcast.
- [17:56]
Danny Shapiro
Your entire identity has been fabricated. Your beloved brother goes missing without a trace. You discover the depths of your mother's illness, the way it has echoed and reverberated throughout your life, impacting your very legacy. Hi, I'm Danny Shapiro and these are just a few of the profound and powerful stories I'll be mining on our 12th season of Family Secrets. With over 37 million downloads, we continue to be moved and inspired by our guests and their courageously told stories. I can't wait to share 10 powerful new episodes with you. Stories of tangled up identities, concealed truths, and the way in which family secrets almost always need to be told. I hope you'll join me and my extraordinary guests for this new season of Family Secrets. Listen to Family Secrets Season 12 on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.
- [18:57]
Jason Timpf
We all know right genius is evenly distributed. Opportunity is not.
- [19:02]
Unknown Host
It's Black Business Month and Black tech green money is tapping in. I'm Will Lucas, spotlighting black founders, investors and innovators building the future one idea at a time. Let's talk legacy tech and generational wealth. I don't think any person of any gender, race, ethnicity should alter who they are, especially on an intellectual level or a talent level, to make someone else feel comfortable just because they are the majority in this situation and they need employment. So for me, I'm always going to be honest in saying that we need to be unapologetically ourselves. If that makes me a vocal CEO and people consider that rocking the boat, so be it. To hear this and more on the power of black innovation and ownership, listen to Black Tech green money from the Black Effect Podcast Network on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
- [19:50]
Hello puzzlers. Let's start with a quick puzzle. The answer is Ken Jennings appearance on the puzzler with A.J. jacobs. The question is what is the most entertaining listening experience in podcast land?
- [20:07]
Jason Timpf
Jeopardy.
- [20:08]
Unknown Host
Truthers who say that you were given all the answers believe in.
- [20:12]
Jason Timpf
I guess they would be conspiracy theorists.
- [20:15]
Unknown Host
That's right. Are there Jeopardy Truthers? Are there people who say that it it was rigged?
- [20:20]
Jason Timpf
Yeah, ever since I was first on, people are like they gave you the answers.
- [20:23]
Unknown Host
Right.
- [20:23]
Jason Timpf
And then there's the other ones which are like they gave you the answers and you still blew it.
- [20:29]
Unknown Host
Don't miss Jeopardy. Legend Ken Jennings on our special game show week of the Puzzler podcast. The Puzzler is the best place to get your daily word puzzle fix. Listen on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.
- [20:52]
Jason Timpf
I can't get with Jamal over Harden. Jamal has such an advantage playing with Jokic that other guards don't. I don't think it's fair to bring up his points per possession in pick and roll when comparing him to other guards. As for the playoffs, like you said, Jamal himself has a lot of lows. I think if Harden had Jokic taking up the defensive attention in pick and roll, he would do much better than Murray and his playoff lows wouldn't be as frequent or bad. He doesn't have the same mid range that Jamal has coming off of a Jokic screen, but in These recent years, Harden has been more willing to take Midis. Plus, Harden's floater is in a different tier than Jamal's. Not to mention he'll also do a better job of running the offense in the non Jokic minutes. And even if Jamal does fit better than Jokic, with Jokic than Harden does, what about every other team, given the criteria isn't about their current team? If Jamal Murray had to play in a physical playoff series with Jokic, I think his production would pale in comparison to Harden's. Jamal's struggles getting past good defenders, struggles generating advantages for his teammates, and isn't in the same tier as a passer as Harden. He also isn't as good defensive at beating bigs in switches. Plus, Harden is the more valuable regular season player. Okay, so when we're talking about this ranking and so let's, let's kind of zoom out a little bit. Remember I'm having Cat at 27 and Harden at 26 and Murray at 25. So if I have Murray and Harden at 26 and 25, I have them very close. Okay. I, that what that means is I leaned very slightly towards Jamal over James Harden. So obviously James Harden has some advantages. I agree. I think James Harden is the better regular season player because he is the better offensive engine. I agree too that if we plucked James Harden and just put him on his own team, where the only goal is to just get through the regular season and get beat in the first round, which is exactly what would happen if Jamal was the best player on a team and exactly what would happen if James Harden is on the best team. Yeah, James Harden's probably going to give you a little bit better regular season offense. But when you get into the postseason, you consistently run into the same issue with Jamal or with, with James Harden, which is Jamal's gonna shoot. Jamal is going to be mentally engaged. Jamal is a less damaging defender than James Harden. Jamal is going to bring me a certain, a certain floor as a basketball player. Once we get into those high intensity playoff environments, James Harden, time and time and time and time and time again, literally loses what makes him James Harden. Like he won't even look at the basket anymore. And you know, I kind of push back on this idea that, oh well, Jamal has an advantage playing with Jokic. I literally watched James Harden play with Joel Embiid. Joel Embiid at the peak of his powers with a very similar level of role gravity when he would work his way into the mid range of the floor. What happened when they got to the Postseason, outside of two games where James Harden was great and hit a couple of game winners, he was fucking terrible. He was fucking terrible again alongside Joel Embiid. So like, for all of the talk about, like, well, what if you gave Jamal, you know, a different roster and you gave James Harden some apex superstar to play with? We've literally seen that. We've literally seen it and it was the same. There are so many examples of James Harden running into that exact same issue when they get to the postseason that it similar to cat. It almost like disqualifies you from competing for a championship. The amount of support you would have to have for James Harden. Like, you'd have to have so much support around James Harden that you could weather him having a single digit scoring game in the must win playoff game. Like not just single digits, but single digit shot attempts. Like, you have to have so much support that you can bank, like literally bank on James Harden completely shitting the bed in a big moment and you still winning like that. That's a lot to overcome because it happens literally year after year after year after year after year after year after year. It's. It just is, it has happened too many times. So if we're talking about the ultimate goal of this, and again, I agree, James Harden has some specific things he's better at. Like, he's better at getting to the foul line. He's better. I, I haven't looked at the floater stats, but I think you're probably right. If I remember correctly, I think Harden's a better floater shooter. I think Harden generally is a better regular season offensive engine. But if our goal is to get from the first day of the regular season to hoisting the trophy, I flat out think that I have a better chance with Jamal Murray because when we get to the postseason, I can count on him to be roughly Jamal Murray at that point. And in that environment, I can then at least count on. And again, we're talking about them in secondary roles here because neither of them are winning a championship in a starting role. I can count on him at least pulling his weight as that secondary player alongside Nikola Jokic in a way that I could never count on James Harden doing that alongside Joel Embiid. And that, that really is the, is the separator. And like, I've had a lot of. I, I. Because I had another question here talking about Jamal. I'll read this one for you guys so you guys can kind of get a feel for how Nuggets fans feel. Not really a debate, but I thought I'd throw this out anyways. I'm a Nuggets fan and I love Jamal and everything he's done for us, but he's a really. He's is really frustrating as a fan because we've seen how high his ceiling can be. And from the outside in looking in, it seems like he's just satisfied with winning only one ring. He comes into seasons out of shape, doesn't seem to take good care of his body. He's flying to MMA fights during the playoffs or out at casinos. The narrative around Jamal before 2023 was he was a gym rat and he worked incredibly hard. There was that famous story that got mentioned during the title run a million times by the announcers where his dad had him doing push ups on ice and taught him to meditate for difficult moments. Also almost as if he was TR training him to be a fucking samurai. Where is that Jamal Murray? Like, seriously, what happened between 2023 and now? I want to know, is the coaching staff and Nuggets organization just letting his lack of work ethic slide? Has nobody brought this up to him? I don't know if the ACL tear in 2021 affected him more than people know, but even though he's been in his late 20s, it seems to. He seems to have the wear and tear and bodily breakdowns of a late 30 year old. Jason, do you have any team insiders I know you speak with Adam Mares quite a bit that have given you any deeper insight into the Jamal Murray situation and how him and the organization have handled his lack of conditioning. So that, that's a really, really good comment that kind of gives you guys like an understanding of how Nuggets fans feel about it. And like, I want to like be really clear about this. In 2023, Jamal was in a different tier. Like he was one of those guys that on any given night could rise to the level literally of the top tier Superstars. He averaged 26, 6 and 7 on 60% true shooting. He had like a ton of like monster 30, 35 point playoff games, hit tons of huge shots, tough shots, and everyone's face like Jamal was at a different level. He is now a level below that where in my opinion he's worthy of the salary that he's on. But you probably can't be the best player on a championship team and he clearly isn't in that next tier the way that he was. Now if he can get back to that tier, I mean, if Jamal Murray can get back to what he was in 20, 23, you guys can just go ahead and cash the check that Denver's going to win the title next year because that's, that's just an insanely good team. If you have awesome Jamal Murray with Nicole Yokich, best player in the world with Aaron Gordon now able to shoot threes with Cam Johnson as a legitimate upgrade over Michael Porter Jr. And a depth of talent beyond that. Like if Jamal gets back to that level, cash the check, Denver's hoisting the trophy. But as we look in that other tier, a couple of things I want to answer some of your specific questions. When I've talked to Adam and other people around the Nuggets, it's pretty simple. They are frustrated. They're frustrated, but I think they all also are aware of the fact that they need Jamal and that's really the key. Like I talked about this in my bit on Jamal Murray the other day. But like Jamal is a very rare combination of like truly elite one on one scorer but also a high level pick and roll player. And like yes, I know that he plays alongside the best pick and roll big in the league and yes, that certainly makes things easier for him. I don't want to like, like discount that necessarily but like he shoots over 40% on pull up threes. You don't think he'd be able to do that in ball screen somewhere else. Like he is a good floater shooter, he's an awesome mid range shot maker. He is a legitimately great one on one player. Like those are all traits that do translate elsewhere now in his archetype as like a scoring guard who's a mediocre playmaker and he's a, he's a better playmaker than people think. He's over six assists per game since his knee injury. But like as a guy in that archetype, like he certainly, if you asked him to be the offensive engine for a team, he's not going to go win you the title. But neither is James Harden. Like we talked about. Like his archetype is immensely valuable in the NBA and quite frankly indispensable to what the Denver Nuggets are trying to do. I, I, I, like if you swapped him, I, I, I mean like literally if you swapped him for any other guard in the league that is like in the similar kind of tier or below him, like obviously Devin Booker would be awesome alongside Nicole Jokic, guys like that, Donovan Mitchell, these are all guys that I have above Jamal Murray. But there, there, there's not a guard like the guards that are below, like John Morant's not like a natural fit alongside Nicola Jokic. That's a weird, clunky fit. You know, like there's a read and react element with Jamal Murray with Nicola Jokic that is super important as you go further back on the list. Like I don't think James Harden would be an awesome fit alongside Nikola Jokic. Like first of all, Jamal is a really high IQ defender that's generally in the right spots and does the right things in a big moment. James Harden is the opposite of that. There's a certain amount of there's a certain amount of like straight up one on one shot making from the mid range that Jamal has that James Harden does not have. That's an important piece of what Denver does against switching defenses. Like I I just think Jamal is generally underrated and like again, I Nuggets fans disagree with me. Guys. This is just how I feel about him as a basketball player. Next question. Hi Jason, Great work as always. I really respect your basketball mind. Your analysis consistently challenges me to think more deeply about the game. You've helped ship my shift my perspective from just focusing on physical tools and high end upside to considering a player's full impact and growth. That said, this might be one of those cases where I'm still drawn to the upside, especially when it comes to John Morant, KARL Anthony Towns vs Trae Young and Jamal Murray. Particularly Jamal. I'll focus on Ja for this mailbag. While I agree with your point that he hasn't added much to his game recently and he's missed significant time, I still find his high end value as a number one option hard to ignore. Even without the notable development lately. His passing, rim pressure and ability to blow by defenders remain so freakishly elite that I think they outpace what Trey and Jamal bring. Especially considering Jamal is a number two option. To me, Josh still has the potential to be the best player on a championship team, even if that possibility is fading with time. I don't feel the same way about Trey or Jamal. So while I understand why JA might be left off a list like this, it's tough for me to give Murray the nod over someone like Ja who's already made an all NBA team and carried a franchise. Curious how much weight do you put on a player's role when making these kinds of comparisons? Where do you draw the line when deciding to rank a high level secondary option like Murray over a true number one like job? Thanks again for all the great work. Looking forward to the next piece. This is a great question And I think it's. There's two angles that I want to get into. First of all, once again, Ja only played in 50 games last year. Once again, Ja got hurt in the playoffs, couldn't finish the series. It's not even the first time that's happened. He managed to play in 60 games just once in the last four years. So there's a theoretical element just with him being able to stay on the floor. Then there's another theoretical element which is like anybody who's listened to the show over the course of the last year has seen, I, I've three or four different times come on the show and been like, John Morant has the potential to be the best player on a championship team. I genuinely agree with you. But he's not there yet. In order for him to get to that point, he needs to turn he's jaw like will have these really good defensive possessions. He needs to turn that into a higher floor where he's more consistent. Possession to possession, right on offense, there's a jump shooting piece and a playmaking piece that he needs to continue to refine over time. There's a decision making at the rim piece that he has to refine over time. He has the potential to be the best player on a championship team, but right now he is neither that nor available. So when I'm looking at this season, just this season, like if you're asking me who do I want for the next five years, John Morate or Jamal Murray, different question. But specifically for this list, when we're just talking about who's the best guy for me to have to lead this team this coming year from October to June, I feel like I can count on more from Jamal Murray than the super wide range of outcomes from Ja. Now for the record, I know that there's a chance that Jaw happens to come into camp in great shape and puts on a little bit more muscle, takes really good care of his body, plays 70 games, spends all summer in the gym working on his three point shot, shoots 38% from three, finishes fourth in MVP voting. Memphis gets the five or four seed and he just looks fucking awesome. They win a couple playoff rounds, losing the conference finals. That, that is an upside that Jaw has that I know Jamal is not going to do this year, obviously, right? But that's the high end of the potential John Moran outcomes. There's a very wide range of outcomes and there's one over here where they miss the playoffs. He plays in 43 games and they any is shoots 28% from three, that's still a potential outcome for John Ray and I'd argue that's every bit as likely, if not more likely than the top end of that spectrum. And so I'm a believer in Jaw's talent. We've talked about this, his supreme ability to beat people off the dribble. I actually think he has a really reliable shot making piece close to the basket in that like short range and it pops up off the ground and shoots those little floaters. I'm a believer in Jaw, but it's theoretical in terms of availability and it's theoretical in terms of upside right now. So yeah, Jaw's probably going to be in that 28, 29 range for me on this list, but he didn't crack the top 25 for me because of that theoretical element. Two more questions. These are both one related to the Lakers at large and another one is related to LeBron and his ranking on this list, which we haven't gotten to yet, but it's just more about theoretically where he would be. Hey Jason, I have a question. As a Lakers Austin Reeves fan, what do you think Austin needs to add to his game to breach this tier of top 25ish players? He's obviously nowhere near guys like Trey Jaw and playoff Jamal, but I wonder how long it'll take him to reach his ceiling considering he's already 27. It would be interesting to see some of Austin's stats as an offensive engine close out attacking next to Luka and LeBron, his defense, rebounding, which is obviously an issue. Thanks. Keep it up. So I think there's a couple pieces for Austin. I don't know that he'll ever breach the top 25 on this list, but to me it's more like can he get into that top 40? Like can he get into the list of guys that I'm considering for the top 25? And you could. I actually had him on an early version of the list when I had like 47 names and then I cut seven guys and Austin was one of those guys that I got cut before I like refined it down to 40. And it's a couple things. One, physicality, Austin pretty generally, especially against teams that can switch struggles to deal with big physical perimeter defenders. So like putting on a little bit more muscle and just getting a little bit better at shedding physical ball pressure, I think will go a long way towards helping him. Then the second piece is his inconsistent jump shooting. Like he is just very streaky, especially from the three point line and especially in catch and shoot situations. And that is a thing that limits his off ball utility, especially in the context of playing alongside a guy like Luka Doncic. I want to see Austin improve just generally as a jump shooter from the three point from the three point line and then again that strength and physicality so that he can deal with ball pressure better than he has been last one. This was just an opportunity for me to vent about something. How do you justify having LeBron in the top 10 when the Lakers were almost two points back per game better without him then with him on the floor and go to a from a positive to a negative plus minus team? It clearly isn't because the Lakers bench is that dominant nor because he makes the key plays in fourth quarter. And that wasn't the case for either AD or Luca or the other two comparable players. Don't get me wrong, LeBron is still good, but you simply aren't nowhere near a top 10 player if your team is better without you than with you on the floor. So let's talk about what this has been caused by. So per cleaning the glass, the Lakers this year were 6.9 points worse with LeBron on the floor versus off. So he had a bad plus minus year. Okay, there are some reasons for that which we'll get into for a minute, but I think it's fucking hilarious because every LeBron hater, every troll account, every sports media personality that doesn't like LeBron, that wants to have a moment at his expense, every single one of those guys has flocked to this damn plus minus number like it is the last TV on a sale rack on Black Friday. Like it is crazy to watch them piranha around this stat like it's the craziest LeBron truth, truth or moment in the history of his career in the league. Let me just read a couple stats for you. These are LeBron's plus minus stats is on off numbers in a Lakers jersey over the course of his entire tenure there. So 2025, yeah they were roughly 7 points worse with LeBron on the floor versus off. 2024 8.3 points better per 100 possessions. 2023 9.7 points better per 100 possessions 2022 3.1 points better. That was the worst Laker team in that era. That was after the Russell Westbrook trade. Still 3 points better with LeBron on the on the floor versus offensive 202113 points better per 100 possessions with LeBron on versus off. 202011 points better. 20199 points better. So consistently literally every single year except for the 2022 year where AD was hurt the whole season and Russ was on the team, he was at least 8 points as a positive plus minus guy on the floor versus off. He is consistently throughout his entire career, for decades, the plus minus monster of the NBA. And he has one season where there's this obvious statistical outlier. And every LeBron hater flocked to it like it was the craziest fucking thing in the world. And it's just so transparent because every one of you who jump on that, you're just telling on yourself as someone that's unwilling to look more than 2 inches in front of your face like this is completely absurd. It is literally the definition of a statistical outlier. Because of the injuries to Anthony Davis and Luka Doncic last year and because J.J. redick made a decision to try to pair Austin with Anthony Davis as much as possible because they needed each other for offense and he trusted LeBron to try to lead those groups. LeBron had to play over 800 possessions last year with Austin, Luca and AD all off the floor at the same time. And those groups got absolutely rolled. They were minus 8.4 points per 100 possessions. That's awful. And it's not hard to see why. Their most used lineup in that data set had Christian Coloco at center. That's a two way contract. Dalton Connect, a rookie who you guys know I'm just not very high on, and Gabe Vincent and d' Angelo Russell, who probably shouldn't be in any starting lineup anywhere around the league. Of course those groups were getting rolled. The lo. That large chunk of data is the kind of thing that's one of the elements that can lead to a statistical outlier. Another way to look at it is like this. Austin Reeves was an awesome plus minus guy for the Lakers last year. Do you think Austin is a much better basketball player than LeBron James or do you think that it was just statistical noise? It was obviously statistical noise. We have decades worth of data, including as recently as last year in various points in last. Excuse me, as recently as the year before last. And even in last year, certain stretches like in the middle of the season where LeBron was a plus minus monster in between the Anthony Davis injury and Luka Doncic joining the Lakers. He was incredible during that strays during that phase. We have so much data where they're just clearly better when he's on the floor versus off. So all of you people who suddenly fixated on that metric, you're literally making a fool of yourselves. You sound stupid when you're talking about it. So like, I just, I just had to take a second to, to get that off my chest because it just is completely absurd that everyone's jumped on that. Like it's some sort of revealing metric that shows. Like it's some conspiracy theory that has finally been brought to light. Like, oh yeah, you're right, guys. LeBron actually hurts the team he's playing for. Good one. You did good stuff there. All right, guys, that's all I have for today. As always, I sincerely appreciate you guys for supporting us and supporting the show again. It's going to be two weeks before our next player rankings mailbag. I have a pre recorded one that we're running next Friday just because I'll be on the cruise ship and it's just impossible for me to, to work in that environment. But keep dropping your mailbag questions, any disagreements in the mail, the YouTube videos from now to two weeks from now and you guys will get an opportunity to get those questions in and I will see you guys. Foreign.
- [42:01]
Freddy Prinze Jr.
We'Re breaking down SummerSlam the biggest party of the summer on Wrestling With Freddy. From our bold picks to storyline breakdowns, we will discuss who walks out with gold, who shocks the night and which matches steal the show we call the winners, the upsets and the chaos to expect. Plus whatever swerves nobody saw coming. Listen to Wrestling with Freddy as part of the Michael Tura Podcast Network, available on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.
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Unknown Host
Check out behind the Flow, a podcast documentary series following the launch of San Diego Football Club.
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San Diego. Coming to MLS is going to be a game changer because this region has been hungry for a men's professional soccer team. We need to embrace this community.
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Listen to San Diego FC behind the Flow on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.
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Freddy Prinze Jr.
Summer's here and with the kids home and off to camp, it's easy for moms to get lost in the shuffle on Good Mom's Bad Choices. We're making space to center ourselves with joy, rest and pleasure. Take the kids to camp. You know what? It was expensive, but I was also thinking, you have my kid. This is kind of priceless. Take her, feed her her. Make core memories. I don't have to do anything. Main thing, I don't have to do anything. To hear this and more. Listen to Good Mom's Bad Choices from Black Effect Podcast Network on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcast or wherever you get your podcast.
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Maria Hinojosa
When I became a journalist, I was the first Latina in the newsrooms where I worked. I'm Maria Hinojosa. I spent my career creating journalism that centers voices have been historically sidelined. From the most pressing news stories to deep cultural explorations. Latino USA is journalism with Hart. Listen to Latino usa, the longest running Latino news and culture show in the United States. Hear it on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
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Freddy Prinze Jr.
This is an iHeart podcast.