Hour 1 - Celtics blow another lead

Summary

Podcast Summary: The Herd with Colin Cowherd – Hour 1: "Celtics Blow Another Lead"

Release Date: May 8, 2025

Introduction

In this episode of The Herd with Colin Cowherd, the hosts delve into the shocking collapse of the Boston Celtics, analyzing their recent playoff performances and the broader implications for the NBA. The discussion is rich with insights on team dynamics, player performances, and the evolving nature of basketball strategies.

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1. The Boston Celtics' Shocking Collapse

The episode kicks off with a heated discussion about the Boston Celtics' unprecedented collapse in the playoffs. Jason McIntyre expresses his disbelief:

"30 plus years watching covering the NBA I have never seen what just happened in Boston. And I thought about it, I thought about it this morning. I've never seen this." ([03:13])

McIntyre highlights the Celtics' dramatic loss of leads, emphasizing their reliance on analytics over traditional playmaking:

"Boston missed 75 threes in the last two games, by the way. 11 for 11 on dunks. How about a few more of those?" ([06:00])

He critiques the team's dependence on three-point shooting, suggesting that stepping away from their analytical approach could have benefited them.

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2. The Rise of the New York Knicks

Transitioning to the New York Knicks, McIntyre praises their resilience and contrasts their gritty playstyle with the Celtics':

"This isn't just about the Celtics. Mikhail Bridges and OG on the wing are dudes Brunson and Josh Hart. Classic Villanova overachievers who again are never rattled in the moment they're playing." ([04:30])

He lauds Jalen Brunson's leadership, describing him as the "anti Tatum" and a cornerstone for the Knicks' tenacity:

"Jalen Brunson's the best quarterback in the City regardless of what sporty plays easy to root for villain of guys." ([03:06])

McIntyre underscores the Knicks' culture of resilience, attributing their success to their Villanova-inspired toughness and teamwork.

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3. Jason Tatum vs. Jalen Brunson: A Tale of Two Players

A significant portion of the episode focuses on contrasting Jason Tatum and Jalen Brunson. McIntyre critiques Tatum's recent performances, suggesting a lack of aggression:

"At the end of the game when Tatum drove in 18 seconds left, gave Boston lead, dunked it, and my reaction was, whoa, that was aggressive. Because he never does that." ([07:25])

He juxtaposes Tatum's style with Brunson's, highlighting Brunson's work ethic and grit:

"Brunson's pretty talented. Tough as nails, all grit. Villanova tough." ([09:00])

The hosts delve into Tatum's inconsistency in clutch moments, questioning his reliability as the Celtics' cornerstone.

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4. The Role of Analytics in Modern Basketball

McIntyre critiques the over-reliance on analytics in the NBA, arguing that it has diminished the human aspect of the game:

"The math nerds will not take over our sport. The basketball gods are pushing back Wall Street, AI tech." ([05:00])

He emphasizes the importance of resilience and human grit over purely data-driven strategies, using the Celtics' downfall as a cautionary tale.

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5. Physicality in the NBA Playoffs

The conversation shifts to the increasing physicality in the NBA playoffs. McIntyre and Steve Covino discuss how teams like the Knicks and Warriors capitalize on this aspect:

"New York and Golden State, they are built for what Adam Silver, whatever memo it is. I like watching physical basketball." ([31:08])

They debate the balance between physical play and skill, noting that excessive aggression can lead to detrimental outcomes for star players like Tatum.

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6. Other NBA Playoff Highlights

Brief mentions are made of other playoff games, including Denver vs. Oklahoma City, with a standout performance by Shaquille Giddens:

"Denver against OKC… Shay Gilders Alexander had 34 and 8. But this is mind blowing. He was plus 51." ([25:38])

The hosts analyze the significance of such performances and their impact on the series' momentum.

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7. NFL Segment: Steelers and Aaron Rodgers

Transitioning to the NFL, the discussion centers on the Pittsburgh Steelers' handling of quarterback Aaron Rodgers and the acquisition of George Pickens:

"Mike Tomlin ordered a code red. Mike Tomlin said, I can't handle it. You think Aaron, at this age, wants to babysit players?" ([34:23])

McIntyre explores the dynamics between Rodgers and the Steelers' management, highlighting potential future implications for the team.

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8. Quarterback Rankings and Performance Analysis

A detailed segment evaluates NFL quarterbacks, with McIntyre expressing skepticism about Minnesota's choice of J.J. McCarthy:

"He's got a modest arm. He's marginally athletic. He's going into a very good division." ([48:00])

The hosts compare McCarthy to other quarterbacks, questioning his readiness and fit within the competitive NFC North division.

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9. Conclusion: The Importance of Team Culture and Resilience

The episode wraps up by reaffirming the significance of team culture, resilience, and physicality in both the NBA and NFL. McIntyre and Covino emphasize that while analytics and star players are crucial, the foundational aspects of teamwork and toughness remain indispensable for success.

"Culture is very, very hard for you to define... The Knicks are five and oh. On the road in the playoffs, and they've trailed in all five of those games." ([42:45])

They conclude that teams with a strong, resilient culture are better equipped to handle the pressures of high-stakes games.

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Notable Quotes

• Jason McIntyre ([03:13]): "30 plus years watching covering the NBA I have never seen what just happened in Boston. And I thought about it, I thought about it this morning. I've never seen this."

• Jason McIntyre ([07:25]): "Brunson is sometimes exhausted, sometimes defensively gets, you know, abused a little because of his lack of size, but he is never a detriment."

• Jason McIntyre ([31:08]): "Jalen Brunson is beautiful to watch."

• Jason McIntyre ([48:00]): "He's got a modest arm. He's marginally athletic. He's going into a very good division."

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Final Thoughts

This episode of The Herd provides an in-depth analysis of the Boston Celtics' recent struggles, the New York Knicks' rise, and broader discussions on player performances and team strategies. The hosts offer a blend of statistical analysis and passionate opinions, making it a compelling listen for sports enthusiasts seeking deeper insights into contemporary sports narratives.

Transcript

[Steve Covino]

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[Rich Davis]

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[Jason McIntyre]

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[Colin Cowherd]

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[Jason McIntyre]

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[Colin Cowherd]

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[Rich Davis]

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[Rich Davis]

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[Jason McIntyre]

The iHeartRadio app by searching Fox Sports Radio or FSR.

[Steve Covino]

Now let's get this party started.

[Jason McIntyre]

You're listening to Fox Sports Radio. Oh, what a night, what a night. I know what I said. Occasionally, a little off the mark. Live, it's the Herd. Wherever you may be and however you may be listening. Thanks for making us part of your day. J. Mac, you are a Knicks fan. I love what they've become. I think they're patient. Jalen Brunson's the best quarterback in the City regardless of what sporty plays easy to root for villan of guys. I was in a place last night, a setting in Los angeles with about 60 people and there wasn't a single Celtic fan there. People could not believe the collapse. Wild is the only thing I can.

[Steve Covino]

Say really tough to repeat in this league. Colin and the Boston Celtics, they're in trouble now. It's official.

[Jason McIntyre]

30 plus years watching covering the NBA I have never seen what just happened in Boston. And I thought about it, I thought about it this morning. I've never seen this. A world champion starts a series at home heavily favored both games. Has 20 point leads in both games and not only loses had no guts at the end. The champs supposed to have a champions confidence. I find the Celtics honestly after last night hard to root for. All they are now is a math formula three pointers regardless. And last night to me was not just a win for the Knicks, it was a win for manhlytics, which is my term. It's a little analytics, but it's about men and resilience and grit and toughness and not being nervous Nelly in the clutch. This isn't just about the Celtics. Mikhail Bridges and OG on the wing are dudes Brunson and Josh Hart. Classic Villanova overachievers who again are never rattled in the moment they're playing, you know, the double big lineup. This is not just about the Celtics, but they are the world champions. So that's the primary focus today. And I know what I said, the Knicks are not going to win another game. I know it. But watching the Celtics collapse, you know what I thought about? The math nerds will not take over our sport. The basketball gods are pushing back Wall Street, AI tech. It's all being taken over by analytics. Can we just have our basketball? Boston missed 75 threes in the last two games, by the way. 11 for 11 on dunks. How about a few more of those? I found myself at the end sort of enjoying the collapse. These scrappy, tough, resilient, stayed in college Villanova guys. And that's what the Knicks are. They're Villanova professionally and ironically the last, the only bucket the Celtics hit in the last eight minutes at home with a deeper, better roster was a dunk. Remember those? Used to have those. That was it. So when they went away from analytics, they actually scored. So Boston completely earned last night. And again, you got to give New York credit and I think it's a real thing. There's a term in the NBA Villanova guys, Bridges and Brunson and Hart, they just, they stay in school. They had to play defense. Mostly from the Northeast. Tough guys, been around big cities, recruited out of D.C. it could be New York, it could be Boston. They're never afraid of the moment. And so let's not just hammer on the Celtics. A lot of this is just the Knicks being a team that never quits. I mean the Villanova with Jay Wright, they didn't have five star guys, they had three star guys. Calipari had the five star guys, the one and done guys. So, you know, sometimes I'm sitting there watching it. I always said playoff basketball to me has always been one thing. Actually two things, but one thing really get a bucket, get a stop. That's really it. Sometime. We talked about this yesterday. The crowd's going crazy. New York, just go get a bucket. Maybe it's two free throws. Go get a bucket, go get a stop. And it's like sometimes watching the Celtics and all their analytics go down the drain, it's like sometimes it is funny to watch the math nerd get his pants pulled down. And that's what happened last night. That's what happened last night. And I'm going to say this, give the Knicks credit, and I don't use this term much, that is an all time choke. I'll give you one. I'll give you the first game because you dominated the Knicks all year. You got sloppy and the Knicks were a good team. I'll give you the first. That's not a choke. You lost a lead. It's a little embarrassing. Last night's a choke. That is a full on choke. This team, by the way, Boston, 11 for 11 on dunk attempts. You want to try those? The closer they get the basket, the more they make their shots. Here was Josh Hart after.

[Jalen Brunson]

I don't think we even know what we're capable of. I think we have to continue to build. I think we have to put together a full game and I think that's something that we haven't done during the course of this playoffs. Continuing to get better. No one else is worried about that. Yeah. And figuring out a way to put together a full 48 minute game.

[Jason McIntyre]

So let's now focus on Jason Tatum. Can we finally put this the bed? He's the face of the league. Thank God we can stop arguing about that. But remember this. Do you remember during the Olympics when Steve Kerr. I don't know, I think he knows a little more basketball than me and you. Steve Kerr wouldn't play. Tatum and Boston Southie was really upset. Chowder what is wrong with Kerr? He knows more basketball than you Sully. He does. And they wouldn't play him. And this is why. Ability without aggression. He wanted closers. If you can't play for Boston in clutch moments, you're not going to play for the country. This is what Steve Kerr saw two of his last three shots were. Because I think at his core, he has to be convinced to be aggressive. There was a moment at the end of the game when Tatum drove in 18 seconds left, gave Boston lead, dunked it, and my reaction was, whoa, that was aggressive. Because he never does that. I mean, it was like, oh, wow. It was off brand. I mean, he's six, eight long and athletic. Can beat guys off the dribble all night. Do it at last night was somebody swatting chalk out of goodwill hunting's hand. And Tatum is really what's ironic here. Juxtaposed with Brunson. He's the anti Brunson. Brunson is work boots and Tatum is leather loafers. And if it's a little drizzly outside, best not wear them. I'm serious. Everything about Tatum, Tatum gets anxious. He looks a little nervous. He's a bit passive. He's indecisive. He's unbelievably talented. Brunson's pretty talented. Tough as nails, all grit. Villanova tough. Like they're. They're like opposite players. One guy is just put on the work boots, head down, don't need marketing. Never forget Jalen Brunson. And you do not see this in the NBA much. Jalen Brunson's like, I'll take a little less money. I want to play with my guys. That is so Villanova. You know, Villanova. You go to Villanova. Class is hard. You play defense. It's not one and done. Even with nil, they're not going to pay you the most. Villanova is a culture. It's not just the name of a university. And that's what the Knicks play like. That's why they're so easy to root for. Like, not all New York teams are easy to root for. I get people that don't like the Yankees and the payroll. They. The Knicks are fun and. And. And Brunson is the anti Tatum and Celtic fans know it. You could hear them early in the game getting uncomfortable. And I'm not an anti Tatum guy, but for when I was saying this during the Olympics, I get it. A DNP coach's decision. When I've been saying this space of the league stuff, it's Like, I have defended the passive nature of Tatum, but, man, there's a reason everybody loves mj. I mean, there is a reason. Six for six, he punched Steve Kerr. There's a reason why Kerr loves Draymond Green, who's limited athletically, who's limited offensively, but gives you everything. Relentless. And so I thought it was fitting last night as they were collapsing. I'm like, it's the perfect team and guy to collapse to the Knicks, the less talented Villanova of pro basketball. Resilient, tough. They go into your place. I'm looking at this clutch time numbers between Brunson and Tatum. I won't, I won't waste your time on all of these. Forget the fact Brunson's got twice as many points. Brunson's plus 18, Tatum's minus 16. Tatum's hurting his team. Brunson is sometimes exhausted, sometimes defensively gets, you know, abused a little because of his lack of size, but he is never a detriment. Somewhere on the floor, Jalen Brunson's making your team better. Here's the Celtics coach after the collapse.

[Jalen Brunson]

I think game one wasn't inefficient as I thought. He just missed some really good looks. I thought today he passed up some, some ones that he was able to take. And so, you know, their switchability, their ability to impact shifts definitely impact him tonight. So, yeah, I thought he missed some easy layups in the beginning of the game. I thought he missed a couple there in the third quarter. But yeah, I mean, they do a good job. OJ Nunoby is a good individual defender and they have good shifts and help behind Boston.

[Jason McIntyre]

Could have blown both these games to Indiana and it wouldn't feel the same. And it's not just a Boston, New York thing. That's not it. It's the culture of the Knicks, which is, man, get a stop, get a bucket. Brunson, less money against analytics. It's who you're losing to, how you're losing. And the star of New York is the anti Tatum to me, at least emotionally. So, J. Mac, I thought of you on multi as I was watching this game with friends, sitting around a table with friends, I kept thinking you were next door to place eating, you know, at high end sirloin.

[Rich Davis]

All right.

[Jason McIntyre]

And I kept thinking, he is having the time of his life. It was the place I was at. And again, it's la, so nobody likes Boston, but a lot of people in LA don't like New York either. It was just wild to watch people's reaction. It was like the Celtics are collapsing in front of us and they just kept hoisting up these awful shots.

[Steve Covino]

Yeah, I'm looking at the numbers here. I know you crushed Tatum and I get that. I will point out Celtics starters 2 for 18 in the fourth quarter shooting. This is not only on table.

[Jason McIntyre]

No, it's not.

[Steve Covino]

I'm surprised Joe Missoula escaped your opening right here because I don't know that he's going to survive the next three weeks.

[Jason McIntyre]

Remember, if you're talking about face of the league, I don't care about Peyton Pritchard or Al Horford. I don't care about Jalen Brown. This is somebody that's the face of the league and the team defends him. When a commentators are critical and everybody rushes to his defense. Okay, but then you gotta on fourth down make the easy throw and here's.

[Steve Covino]

The numbers on the screen. Tatum, fourth quarter and overtime. Not great. Obviously not, not outstanding.

[Jason McIntyre]

By the way. The critics, myself included have always said he's a top eight player.

[Steve Covino]

I, I go higher than that, but I would not. We have an 82 game sample size of Jason Tatum for four straight years being first team all NBA. Yeah, 82 games times four. And he's been bad in two games.

[Jason McIntyre]

Like I, I, that's not fair. He has been suspect throughout his career on a fairly regular basis in these moments.

[Steve Covino]

I mean last series against Orlando he averaged like 31.

[Jason McIntyre]

Okay. You know, nobody cares about Orlando.

[Steve Covino]

Fine. In the finals last year he had two games with 31 points in the finals against.

[Jason McIntyre]

Is it a two game series?

[Steve Covino]

Two out of the five he went.

[Jason McIntyre]

I watched them against Golden State Wilt.

[Steve Covino]

Yeah, that was, that was a tough one. His first.

[Jason McIntyre]

When you say Jayson Tatum, if you say what is your knock on Jayson Tatum? Everybody has the same knock. Don't trust him. Late. I'm sorry.

[Steve Covino]

I get it. There's some evidence of that. He's also had some big game sevens. I think he had 51 in a.

[Jason McIntyre]

Game six against plenty of Boston reporters to tell you how mean we are. But it is really when you put him against Brunson, they are opposite players.

[Steve Covino]

You remember when they got Bridges the Knicks? I was like they match up great with Boston. And then it didn't bear out in the regular season. It has opposed to.

[Jason McIntyre]

I'll throw this at you. Why is it working in the postseason and it didn't in the regular season? This is my theory is New York's a more physical team and the NBA decides. Look at how the physical Teams, by the way, the warriors defensively are physical. The T Wolves against the Lakers were more physical. New York, even at practice, they're a more physical team than Boston. Boston's pretty, Boston's outside. Boston doesn't get to the free throw line. New York is a, in, in football terms, one of them is a passing offense, one of us, one of them is a run game. So the Knicks, as the NBA allows you to play in the postseason and get physical. You know, I, I, I'm watching the first game and I'm like, oh, it's a blip. But last night you're like, oh, this, this, this team's got a fullback. This team has double tight ends. They're playing double bigs.

[Steve Covino]

I like how you referenced that. Tatum drove and you're like, oh, wow, that was spectacular. Watch Mitchell Robinson on that play. He, he was up way too far by the three point line. Tatum dusted him. So on the next play, the game ending, Mitchell Robinson drops back. He's like, I'm conceding the jumper. And Tatum, like, he just kind of wilted there at the end.

[Jason McIntyre]

It's one thing to miss a final shot, but two of his last three shots were fallaways on the baseline.

[Steve Covino]

How about Mikhail Bridges, game one, rips the ball out of Jaylen Brown's hands at the end.

[Jason McIntyre]

Game two, he blocks.

[Steve Covino]

He's great.

[Jason McIntyre]

No, we all loved McHale Bridges to the Knicks, we all said, okay. They finally have their wing defender who can give you 20 points on any night.

[Steve Covino]

Knicks in the finals would be really good for the league, huh? A lot of content for this show. New York Knicks in the final.

[Jason McIntyre]

Sure. The incorrigible Bruce Sard and company.

[Steve Covino]

They'll be going to the games, right?

[Jason McIntyre]

Oh, yeah. 40 minutes from now, Albert Brer stops by on the Cowboys Steelers trade from yesterday. And more thoughts on that. Plus, what's going on in Minnesota with our quarterback situation? It's the Herd. Be sure to catch live editions of the Herd, weekdays at noon Eastern, 9am Pacific on Fox Sports Radio, FS1 and the iHeartRadio app.

[Rich Davis]

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[Jason McIntyre]

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[Rich Davis]

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[Jason McIntyre]

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[Jason McIntyre]

Golf it's called the yips. When we can suddenly not. You can't. You can't chip, you can't putt. Like does Boston have that? Boston looked completely out of sorts and it is amazing. You see this with pro athletes where it just, it just, it bleeds over the whole roster. Like Boston was like Looking for Tatum to take over. Like, that's. Everybody knows that's our most talented guy. So this idea that, well, you know, Peyton Pritchard missed some shots and, well, this guy was that. That's not what it's about. We all know who's getting the ball with Denver at the end of a game, if you need a basket. We all know who's getting the ball at OKC sga. Not Chad Holmgren. Chad Holmgren got nervous at the free throw line. We all know who's getting the ball with the Knicks. Jalen Brunson is going to have the ball in his hands and score, make something happen. Boston guys are looking to Jason Tatum. We all know. I mean, that was the Kobe Shaq issue. They both wanted it, but Shaq couldn't hit a free throw late, so Kobe needed it and Shaq wanted it. Tim Duncan couldn't hit free throws. He had Manu and Tony Parker. There are exceptions when a guy is a liability like Giannis at the end of the game at the free throw line, but Tatum's not. And everybody's looking around for Tatum and when he wilts, it affects the entire team. You're now entering the no Bull zone sponsored by credible Great Rates. None of the bull. So there's the story this morning reported by the Pittsburgh Post Gazette. Jerry Dulock. Mike Tomlin was the one. And this is a tolerant guy. He's dealt with drama day one. He's the one that wanted George Pickens out of there. And bless the Cowboy fans heart, they think they got just a steal here. But ask yourself, how'd Chase Claypool do when the Steelers bailed on him? Or what was the receiver? Bryant, Martavis Bryant? What happened? What happened to Levy and Bell and Deontay Johnson, Antonio Brown? What happened? So listen, Tomlin's patient and he's like, yeah, let's get him out of here. By the way, when Kyle Shanahan bails on a quarterback, you should listen. When Warren Buffett sells a stock, you should listen. When Mike Tomlin orders a code Red, you may want to pay attention because he's like the most patient pro player guy in the league. A lot of guys won't even. They won't even put guy like George Pickens was not on the board for certain teams. No interest. Like, not interested. The Atlanta Falcons took an edge rusher James Pierce. He was not on a dozen boards. Some teams just don't want the headache. Pittsburgh drafts him. Tomlin deals with him. He's patient. And he said nah. And, and, and Mike Tomlin is two things. Great motivator, and he knows when to bail on people. And Jerry Jones, well, this is perfect for him because he's a saver. This is what he did with Jason Garrett, and he didn't have to save Jimmy Johnson or Bill Parcell, so that relationship eroded very quickly. But Jason Garrett, Mike McCarthy, Brian Schottenheimer, Chan Gailey, they got jobs they wouldn't otherwise get. So it's almost like they're indebted to Jerry Jones. Finally. Mike McCarthy was the one that went to Jerry last year and said, like, I'm done. And Jerry was trapped. Nobody'd ever done that to Jerry. McCarthy's like, I got a Super Bowl. I got my 35, 45 million. I don't need this circus. So. And then, Then, then what Jerry will do, and I don't doubt that George Pickens is going to have big games, big moments, great moments, and. And he may have a really nice season, and everybody's going to fall for it, and then Jerry's going to do I told you so. I'm saved him, and then he'll overpay him. If you want to use this kid for a year, play him. Helps the offense, helps Dak Prescott. I'm not opposed to taking guys on short term that elevate your offense. I'm not opposed to that. But be very careful, because we know this to be true. I saw a story this morning. Trading for Pickens is a bold move the Cowboys have needed for years. No, it's another Jerry move that we're accustomed to, which he likes to save. He likes to. He likes to find something on the draft. He. Or that, you know, the scrap heap and go, hey, Dak Prescott, who found him in the fourth round? That's what Jerry. Hey, I gave Jason Garrett a shot. Tony Romo, undrafted. That was more Bill Parcells than Jerry. But that's Jerry's psychology. He likes that. To save, to prove he found something. He's a former wildcatter. He'd find the oil, he finds the jam. And, you know, we all know what the. That's fine, but you should probably keep really good coaches around, and you probably. If Pickens does have some great moments, and I'm sure he will, he's a tremendous talent. Fall in like with him. Don't fall in love Coordinates. When Mike Tomlin is like, yeah, let's get him out of the building. Mike did that. Not the gm, not the owner, not the quarterback. That's Mike. Mike's like, enough. Okay, Just pay attention. When Shanahan says no to a quarterback, Warren Buffett sells a stock or Tomlin moves off a guy. Go look at what they have produced post Mike Tomlin. And the answer is not much. Consistently. J. Mack with the news. No, no, no. Turn on the news. This is the Herdline news.

[Steve Covino]

So there was actually another game in the NBA last night. Nobody watched it. Denver against okc. And nobody watched it because it was.

[Jason McIntyre]

Over before it started.

[Steve Covino]

Oklahoma City wins 1:49.

[Jason McIntyre]

Yeah.

[Steve Covino]

To 106. Now Shay Gilders Alexander had 34 and 8. But this is mind blowing. He was plus 51.

[Jason McIntyre]

Yeah.

[Steve Covino]

In his minutes on the court. That is the best in any playoff game since they began tracking the stat in 97. Here's the MVP on his performance.

[G]

We knew what was at stake tonight. We, we came out desperate. We wanted to just take care and control the things that we knew we could. And we did a pretty good job of that specifically to start the game. And that start carried us through the rest of the night.

[Steve Covino]

Kind of expected this from Boston, but Boston won the championship last year.

[Jason McIntyre]

Well, Boston, by the way, at one point in this game, like the first game in the series, they were scoring easily. And it was every time New York got close, Boston would get it back up to 12 and 14. Yeah, I mean I just kind of felt like we see this about once a playoff series when a team gets up. Golden State did this against Houston. They waved the white flag eight minutes in. Denver had no interest. Denver was going to rest. Guys, get them off the floor. I don't take anything from it. Denver now goes home. Altitude advantage. Home court advantage is theirs. I mean nice win, but it doesn't. Had they won a close game and had great execution down the stretch, I would have been more impressed.

[Steve Covino]

Pressed.

[Jason McIntyre]

Yeah. That's what we question about okc. We don't question OKC can blowout teams. We question oa. OKC and crunch time.

[Steve Covino]

Yeah.

[Jason McIntyre]

Because they didn't play any crunch time games. So they would have been better served winning a close game and getting some an exercise in. In crunch time minutes.

[Steve Covino]

Who you. You think OKC still wins the series or I.

[Jason McIntyre]

They should. But I. I have question. You think you get to a game seven with Gordon and Murray and Yic and Westbrook a bunch of kids.

[Steve Covino]

Game seven last year against Minnesota led by 20 lost. Remember that?

[Jason McIntyre]

Minnesota wasn't just a bunch of kids yet Cat and Gobert and Mike Conley and I'm.

[Steve Covino]

I'm torn here, but I listen. I'm just telling people be careful betting on The NBA playoffs. It is just too crazy right now. I don't. You don't know which team's going to show up? Would it surprise you if Denver one by 20 in game three? No, but not at all. Hell, I wouldn't be surprised if the Knicks go up three nothing and then it's three.

[Jason McIntyre]

Three.

[Colin Cowherd]

I.

[Steve Covino]

You just don't know what's going to happen.

[Jason McIntyre]

Listen, Boston's had great success in their sports, so nobody's going to lose any sleep over Boston losing. But it's not just losing, it's how Boston's losing.

[Steve Covino]

Yeah, two tough ones, man. Up by 20 in the second half. You got to close that out. Let's go to the. The game tonight. Warriors, Timberwolves, game two in Minnesota. Obviously, no Steph Curry, but Chris Finch of Minnesota and Steve Kerr of Golden State, neither are happy about the physicality in the playoffs. Colin, maybe you should take a listen to what their thoughts are on this bully ball that's happening in the NBA postseason.

[Jason McIntyre]

Yeah, I mean, we'll certainly try to take justice into our own hands whenever we can.

[G]

I think it's the nature of physical sport. But by the same token, you know, my God, you, you should see some of these clips. They're just like pulling guards and linemen.

[Jason McIntyre]

Out there, just taking shots at Rudy. So they had their bear hugging Steph.

[Jalen Brunson]

And they could have called six fouls. But the league has established the physicality in the playoffs.

[Jason McIntyre]

Listen, I love it. You don't. But what is funny is I'm going to defend Kerr here a little bit because there is no question. Butler and Draymond are like old school tough guys. And Minnesota's Draymond gets, you know, Draymond's classic. Draymond is so physical that you could call him for a foul every play. And so you just sort of. He has moved the line on what you can do. And Mike Breen was complaining about this. But I. Years and years ago, the Utah Jazz, when they had Stockton and Hornacek, Jerry Sloan, the late Jerry Sloan, who I watched play, Sloan was a tough guy. I mean, Jerry Sloan got in fights on the floor. Like he was a tough guy. So Utah, for being a dominant team for like eight, 10 years, was never a great road team. They were unbelievable at home. And I could never figure it out. And then John Ireland, voice of the Lakers, said the reason and I, I could not figure it out. And I'm sitting there talking to him once and he said, because the refs in Utah, they don't want to call every foul and this team is so absurdly over the top physical. So Jerry Sloan that when you go on the road, the refs are like, okay, we're gonna call those go either way calls. Six or eight of those go against you. The other team gets into the bonus. So I. Those Utah teams used to. And they gave Michael Jordan teams trouble. They just moved the line on what kind of physicality was acceptable. The Pistons did this with the bad boys. After a while, you're tackling guys a shove. Doesn't look that bad.

[Steve Covino]

I mean, there was. Somebody sent me a clip of. In the last round, Jabari Smith of the Rockets essentially diving into Steph Curry's chest. No call whatsoever to set a screen. And that's what Finch is talking about. They're like pulling guards in the NFL. The counter. It's like a counter tray or whatever. And the guards are just coming around blasting guys. I don't like it. You seem to like it. Are you changing your tune a little bit?

[Jason McIntyre]

No.

[Steve Covino]

On this physicality.

[Jason McIntyre]

Listen, if you're a Knicks fan, you want this physicality that plays into your game. You're not a pretty team. You're not. You're not playing pretty basketball. It's mana lit.

[Steve Covino]

Jalen Brunson is beautiful to watch. Come on.

[Jason McIntyre]

I. I think the. I think physical teams can. Draymond Green intimidates people. Physical Jimmy Butler intimidates people. So I think the warriors of the Knicks. Now that Steph's not on the floor, Steve Kerr tonight is begging privately. Steve Kerr is praying that the referees let it be ugly and let they can grab ant and they can grab.

[Steve Covino]

Because Curry's out.

[Jason McIntyre]

That's right. Because Curry's not on the floor. So. So to me, New York and Golden State, they are built for what Adam Silver, whatever memo it is. I like watching physical basketball.

[Steve Covino]

It sounds like what you think is teams have to be able to play both ways. You have to be able to play physical also. You've got to be tough. And it's like Boston's a little too far. Finesse is. Listen, OKC is kind of a finesse team.

[Jason McIntyre]

Colin. They are. Here's the thing. Celtics do not get to the free throw line. Warriors pre Jimmy Butler did not get to the free throw line. If you're a. By the way, that's why Draymond Green has always been so important and Andre Iguodala was so important. Physical guys get them to the line. And I. And I. That's why Jimmy Butler is. Do you know that the best defensive team in the league Since Jimmy Butler arrived.

[Steve Covino]

I didn't know that it's Golden State.

[Jason McIntyre]

I didn't realize they are so. They are tonight. Warriors are like, oh, keep the whistles in the dressing room.

[Steve Covino]

So do you think that'll. This will. Tonight's game will be similar to okc?

[Jason McIntyre]

Oh, God, yeah.

[Steve Covino]

So Minnesota.

[Jason McIntyre]

Oh, yeah. I don't think. I don't think OKC is a pretty team. I think they can be physical, but young teams are never as physical as older teams. It's just bigger, older guys that know how to push the envelope for sure.

[Steve Covino]

Final story is to the NFL, where the Steelers obviously just moved off George Pickens and they wait for Aaron Rodgers to make a decision. Now, this is wacky. In a recent interview, Steelers minority owner Thomas Toll was discussing a business venture into AI. Okay. And was asked about the Rogers situation. He said, I'm here to talk about AI and the Rogers situation is a more complex issue than artificial intelligence. What is he saying, Colin? That Rogers is just holding the franchise hostage.

[Jason McIntyre]

He wants what he wants. Aaron comes with a lot of stuff outside of football. And so whatever. I think when you're in your prime, you can do that and everybody's fine. I don't think Aaron has a big market because of that. I think, you know, whatever you want to say about Aaron, there's just a lot of moving parts with him.

[Steve Covino]

Do you think behind the scenes, Roger said, I don't want Pickens. I want La Lazard. Make that happen and I'm coming. Is that reasonable to.

[Jason McIntyre]

I think it would be a completely reasonable thing for Aaron Rodgers to discuss. I would defend Aaron to the core if Aaron said, love Metcalf. I'm not sure how comfortable I would be with a guy quitting on routes like Pickens. That's totally fair for a quarterback.

[Steve Covino]

Okay, fine. But why not just go to Pickens then, if you're Rogers? Hey, man, I was thinking of joining. What's. How's your mindset? What's going on? Meet up with him. What's wrong with that?

[Jason McIntyre]

Mike Tomlin ordered a code red. Mike Tomlin said, I can't handle it. You think Aaron, at this age, wants to babysit players?

[Steve Covino]

Is Tomlin sitting on that grenade for Rodgers? So he gets him? Because Tomlin also knows Mason Rudolph ain't getting me nowhere. I need Rogers.

[Jason McIntyre]

Well, he needs DK Metcalf. DK Metcalf and Aaron are great for each other. He's going to get 13 targets a game. But I do think it's fair when you bring older quarterbacks that Sometimes, especially in a defensive culture like Pittsburgh, it's okay. If Aaron wants one guy, he wants his. Alan Lazard or I. I'm not. Tom Brady wanted Gronk and Lenny Fernet. Like, I. It's okay. Listen, I'll come, but you got to give me a little bit of a security blanket on third down. You got to give me my guy.

[Steve Covino]

And how much of this is the. The offensive coordinator? Is Rogers trying to get his own guy in there? Because we know the history. Listen there. I don't know which reporter came on the show and said it, but Arthur Smith and Rogers will not work, like, unequivocally. They are oil and water. It will be a disaster.

[Jason McIntyre]

Well, Arthur Smith comes from. You know, Arthur Smith. His dad is.

[Steve Covino]

Yes, yes, Mr. FedEx.

[Jason McIntyre]

Yeah. So Arthur Smith comes with a bit of a tude. I mean, he's gonna.

[Steve Covino]

Rogers has a bit of a toot.

[Jason McIntyre]

Yeah, no, I don't think it's. I don't think it's a perfect. You know, Matt LaFleur was more conciliatory with Aaron. Mike McCarthy early was a bit more conciliatory. Robert Sala was a bit more conciliatory. Arthur Smith will just do what I want to do.

[Steve Covino]

Who was the guy who coached in Denver and then went to the jets as the O.C. hackett.

[Jason McIntyre]

Yeah.

[Steve Covino]

Again, steamrolling that guy.

[Jason McIntyre]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Steve Covino]

He ain't steamrolling Arthur Smith.

[Jason McIntyre]

No, no, he's not. Arthur Blank couldn't steamroll him as the owner of the Atlanta Falcons. J. Mac with the news. Well, that's the news and thanks for stopping by. The Herd lie news. Everybody understands what we watched last night, how historic that was. That is crazy. Rocket Mortgage is Lowering down payments to 1% for eligible home buyers with something called 1+1.1% down on home. On a home with 1/plus from Rocket Mortgage. Learn more today at 804rocket or rocket.com Rocket Mortgage, LLC. Licensed in all 50 states. Be sure to catch live editions of the Herd, weekdays at noon Eastern, 9am Pacific.

[H]

Hey, it's Steve Covino.

[I]

And I'm Rich Davis.

[H]

And together we're Covino and Rich on Fox Sports Radio.

[I]

You can catch us weekdays from 5 to 7pm Eastern, 2 to 4 Pacific, on Fox Sports Radio. And of course, the iHeartRadio app.

[H]

Why should you listen to Covino and Rich?

[I]

We talk about everything. Life, sports, relationships, what's going on in the world.

[H]

We have lived of fun talking about the stories behind the stories in the world of sports and pop culture. Stories that, well, other shows don't seem to have the time to discuss.

[I]

And the fact that we've been friends for the last 20 years and still work together, I mean, that says something, right?

[H]

So check us out. We like to get you involved too. Take your phone calls, chop it up, as they say.

[I]

I'd say the most interactive show on Fox Sports Radio, maybe the most interactive show on planet Earth.

[H]

Be sure to check out Covino and Rich live on Fox Sports radio and the iHeartradio app from 5 to 7pm Eastern, 2 to 4 Pacific.

[I]

And if you miss any of the live show, just search Covino and Rich wherever you get your podcast. And of course, on social media, that's Covino and Rich.

[Rich Davis]

Summer is almost here, and you can now get almost anything you need for your sunny days delivered with Uber Eats. Now, what do we mean by almost? Well, you can't get a well groomed lawn delivered, but you can get chicken parm delivered. A day at the lake? That's a no. A Philly cheesesteak? That's a yes. A nice tan. Sorry. A box fan? Happily, yes. What about a day of sunshine? Not happening.

[Jason McIntyre]

How about a box of fine wines?

[Rich Davis]

Yeah, that's happening. Delivery's on its way. Okay. How about some clear skies? Nope. Well, how about some French fries? Yeah. So how about a freshly cut lawn? Can't help you there. But a barbecued prawn? Order it and it's on its way. Even throw in some paper towels. Clean up after the feast. So while you can't get fun in the sun delivered, don't worry because you can get pork buns delivered. Uber Eats can definitely get you that. Get almost, almost anything delivered with Uber Eats. Order now. Alcohol in select markets. Product availability may vary by region. See app for details.

[Josh Hart]

Introducing Instagram Teen Accounts. A new way to keep your teen safer as they grow. Like making sure they always have their seatbelt on.

[Colin Cowherd]

All right, sweetie pie, buckle up.

[Jason McIntyre]

Good job.

[Josh Hart]

Or ring the bell on their bike.

[Jason McIntyre]

Okay, kid, give it a try.

[Rich Davis]

Nice.

[Josh Hart]

Or remember their elbow pads.

[Jason McIntyre]

Knees too.

[Rich Davis]

Okay.

[Jason McIntyre]

Yep. There you go.

[Josh Hart]

New Instagram Teen Accounts. Automatic protections for who can contact your teen and the content they can see.

[Colin Cowherd]

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[Rich Davis]

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[Steve Covino]

Indianapolis 500 as the IndyCar series hits the IMS road course for the Son SIO Grand Prix, the fastest racing on earth continues live Saturday at end the 30 Eastern on Fox.

[Jason McIntyre]

So teams that win the first two games of a best of seven series on the road win the series 86% of the time. I just, I still think Boston's going to win the series. But the NBA with this physical play that plays to New York strength, they're not a pretty team. They're a tough team mentally, physically, emotionally, the Knicks are tough. Same with the warriors. Without Steph. The warriors in game two tonight, Minnesota, they're not going to win that game. But they're better off the league not calling fouls because you know, Golden State's got one way to win. So Tom Thibodeau gets criticized as a head coach, but what he did, and he's done this multiple times, wherever he goes, he creates a culture. He's not just diagramming plays. So the Knicks have an identity. It's very Villanova and it's not the most talented roster. But again, Jay Wright was winning two natties at Villanova. Calipari won one at Kentucky. But that program at Kentucky didn't have the soul and the heart of Villanova. And that's where Tibb lays the foundation in toughness, in grit. And then Jalen Brunson provides the soul and he's a very good player. You know, there's no load management with the Knicks. They're, you know, they're the opposite of the Clippers. In fact, he's been criticized Thibodeau for load mismanagement. He plays his guys in practices too hard. But I do think it's there's. There's a real point about what the culture is. Culture is very, very hard for you to define, for me to define what is, you know, your family's cult. Well, what is culture? Well, we go to church. That's not culture. That's going to church. The Knicks are five and oh. On the road in the playoffs, and they've trailed in all five of those games. And three of them were close games. And I think this is the advantage to a Tibbs team. When your practice is hard, your team gets hard. Like Mike Vrabel to New England. Watch New England be a very physical team. Vrabel, Andy Reid is known for tough practices. And that. That's Tibbs. That was Pat Riley as a coach. Tough practices create tough men, and it's fearless basketball. And that's why when they get down late in games, they don't care. And Jalen Brunson talked about this culture and this identity of being so good in clutch time.

[G]

Just going back to our days in college, just the way that we practiced and we prepared for games, it was more mental than anything. And so when you get to the real life or the real game situations, you practice it, you've been prepared for it. You just. You've been through moments like that. And so no matter what happens, we're going to be together as a team, and then we're going to have each other's back, regardless.

[Jason McIntyre]

Yeah. And there's no gimmicks with the Knicks. There's no, like, secrets. It's like, you ever seen Adele, you know, it's like there's no pyrotechnics. There's no. There's no fireworks show. Great voice on stage. Here's the mic, she's singing. And that's kind of the Knicks like, they're going to play tough, they're going to play physical. Brunson's going to lead the offense. They've got some size. They've upgraded at wing. Brunson's going to have the ball late. They're going to have really dry spells offensively because they're just not that gifted. They're not a pretty offense. Baskets don't come easy. Even Brunson when he's scoring 28 to 34, it doesn't look easy. He's on the floor, he's getting banged around. But that really, that resilience is so valuable for a tough team. This is just like Golden State. Golden State's really good in clutch time because they've been in so many clutch time Games. By the way, this is what you see with okc. Okc, they've not been in these tight, close games and OKC looks so nervous in their game one loss to Denver. They had not been in games like that last year. Kansas City Chiefs were 11 and oh, in one possession games. There was a reason they were good because the last two years they've been in so many close games and it becomes New England with Brady, you know, they, Tom would take less, they'd have a lot of depth. They didn't have outside of the Randy Moss years. It was about smarts and efficiency. And New England was always so good in close games against good teams because they won so many. It just kept feeding off it. So, you know, I was thinking about this. This doesn't happen very often that A team wins 14 games in the NFL like the Minnesota Vikings and their reaction is, you know, I think we're going to go with a new unproven guy, J.J. mcCarthy. So I just saw a story this morning about Kevin O' Connell and JJ McCarthy, you know, and he's in, in a league where every good team knows who their quarterback is. And even if it's a new quarterback like Darnold of the Seahawks, you kind of know what Darnold is. Nobody knows what JJ McCarthy is. I am a skeptic. First of all, he played for a college team known for a run game and defense. He was not asked to win games, he was asked not to lose them. He's got a modest arm. He's. He's marginally athletic. And again, he's going into a very good division. And this team seriously considered re signing Sam Darnold. So in fact, you go up, we were looking this morning. I'm always so reluctant to embrace a quarterback when everybody says, I don't know how to describe it, he's a winner. Danny Werfel was a winner. Every Steve Spurrier quarterback in Florida was a winner. All of Urban Myers quarterbacks, everywhere he goes are winners. Alex Smith was a winner and a good quarterback. So we went this morning and we were looking at sort of like what the draft people said about J.J. mcCarthy coming in. And this was Dane Brugler. His strengths, mental prep, weakness. Very few examples of him adjusting protections at the line. Played in an offense that leaned on the run game. Lance Zerlein, who I trust, his strength is the ambiguous. Well, he plays with a chip on his shoulder. Weakness, modest arm strength, average escapability. So all the stuff I'm supposed to love is this sort of nebulous He's a winner. He plays with a chip. How's his arm, how's his athletic ability, houses size. So, and I've said this before, if, if you think about who should be dominating the NFL at quarterback, it should be Alabama guys and Ohio State guys, right? Because they get the five star out of high school, then they win the most in college and you'd think, oh, it's just linear. That guy's going to be how many great Ohio State quarterbacks in the NFL? Because playing at Ohio State is fundamentally nothing like the NFL. Well, you always have the best teammates, you always have a lead. If you don't play particularly well, well, we'll just go to the ground game and that, that, that. Now, Ohio State's had a lot more teams historically like that than Michigan, but those last two years with Michigan and Harbaugh, they were pulverizing people. They didn't even have to throw the football. I mean, they were going into Columbus and they had the Buckeyes out of sorts. So it's my take is these massive. Quinn Ewers went in the seventh round, it was the last quarterback taken. And my take was he doesn't play trailing much outside of the Georgia games and frankly gets better protection in college than he'd ever get as a pro. And he's got three wide receivers, they're all pros. And a pro tight end and pro running back. That's not real life in the NFL. You trail a lot. Teams need you to save the day a lot. J.J. mcCarthy's just never done it. So I've got, I've got, I have so many questions about this and, and I know Kevin o' Connell is all fired up on this, but it is very rare is. I read a story this morning about this. 14 wins and they're like, we're going to go with a new guy and a new guy. I'll just say it. I'm a skeptic now. I'm not a Zach Wilson skeptic. I think he can play a little bit, but I'm, I'm in the. I think he's closer to Jackson dart than Jaden Daniels. That's how I would say. I think he's closer to the Ole Miss guy that everybody suddenly loved after he stopped playing. He got better after he stopped playing than he is the Jaden Daniels. And I'll just throw it out there. That's why you got Minnesota. How in the world you like Minnesota this year? I like their coach.

[Steve Covino]

I'm going in blind on McCarthy totally. But to compare him to Jackson Dart. I mean you were putting up the Jackson Dart stats against good teams in the SEC and he vomited all over himself. Terrible. McCarthy was the opposite. Delivered when it mattered most. Game winning drive against Alabama.

[Jason McIntyre]

Do you know the last time he had like 30 attempts?

[Steve Covino]

He's not going to need 30 attempts.

[Jason McIntyre]

Dude, everybody in the NFL eventually needs 30 attempts. You are trailing a lot in Minnesota in that division with Detroit, Chicago and Green Bay's offense. You're going to be trailing in the second half and have to throw it 44 times.

[Steve Covino]

You're aware they have this gentleman named Justin Jefferson who catches passes top receiver in the league.

[Jason McIntyre]

If it was just that easy, why don't they win in playoff games?

[Steve Covino]

So go ahead, rank the quarterbacks for me in that NFC North. The tough, tough division. Toughest division in the nfc. Rank them.

[Jason McIntyre]

Well, I mean Jared Goff's been to the super bowl.

[Steve Covino]

Okay, so he's one.

[Jason McIntyre]

And I would say Jordan loves the second most proven. And third is Caleb Williams.

[Steve Covino]

What is he proven?

[Jason McIntyre]

Well, we know how gifted he is.

[Steve Covino]

And that's the problem about the NFC.

[Jason McIntyre]

Jaden Daniels threw over 30 attempts like every time. 11 times.

[Steve Covino]

Every single time.

[Jason McIntyre]

Okay, And Jaden Daniels played in a weaker division.

[Steve Covino]

They had no defense.

[Jason McIntyre]

Watch his defense is Minnesota's. Great.

[Steve Covino]

It was great last year. Keep an eye on the Vikings Cowherd. Come on.

[Jason McIntyre]

My eyes are on them. I just don't like what I see.

[Rich Davis]

Summer is almost here and you can now get almost anything you need for your sunny days delivered with Uber Eats. Now what do we mean by almost? Well, you can't get a well groomed lawn delivered, but you can get chicken parm delivered. A nice tan. Sorry. A box fan. Happily, yes. A day of sunshine. No. A box of fine wines. Yes. Uber Eats can definitely get you that. Get almost, almost anything delivered with Uber Eats. Order now. Alcohol in select markets. Product availability may vary by region. See app for details.

[Colin Cowherd]

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[Jason McIntyre]

Can I get you a refill?

[Colin Cowherd]

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[Jason McIntyre]

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[Rich Davis]

Details cutting edge technology. Basically pushes the boundaries of innovation. Thousands of details went into creating the ultimate electric suv.

[Jason McIntyre]

Compromise not one of them.

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Banking with Capital One helps you keep more money in your wallet with no fees or minimums on checking accounts and no overdraft fees. Just ask the Capital One bank guy. It's pretty much all he talks about in a good way. He'd also tell you that this podcast is his favorite podcast too. Oh really? Thanks Capital One Bank Guy. What's in your wallet? Terms apply. See capitalone.com bank capital1na member FDIC.

[Steve Covino]

You're listening to an iHeart podcast.