Hour 1 - Defense wins championships

Summary

Podcast Summary: The Herd with Colin Cowherd – Hour 1: "Defense Wins Championships"

Release Date: June 17, 2025
Host: Colin Cowherd
Guests: Jim Harbaugh, Nick Wright, and J. Mac
Description: In this episode of The Herd with Colin Cowherd, the discussion centers around the pivotal role of defense in securing championships across various sports, with a particular focus on the NBA Finals. The conversation delves into team strategies, player performances, and broader implications for both basketball and football.

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1. Introduction

Colin Cowherd kicks off the episode with an enthusiastic welcome, setting the stage for a deep dive into the importance of defense in championship victories. He introduces guests Jim Harbaugh and Nick Wright, highlighting their expertise in sports analysis.

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2. The Crucial Role of Defense in Championships

Oklahoma City Thunder's Defensive Prowess

The primary focus shifts to the Oklahoma City Thunder (OKC), whose formidable defense has been a cornerstone of their success. Colin emphasizes:

“When a historically great defense meets a fast-paced or dynamic offense, the defense usually prevails.”
— Colin Cowherd [07:11]

He praises OKC's defensive lineup, noting that they may possess up to five of the top 30 defenders in the NBA, including two All-Defensive Team members. The discussion highlights how this defensive strength has stifled opponents like the Indiana Pacers, especially following Tyrese Haliburton's injury.

Jim Harbaugh adds:

“We were very disruptive defensively. Kind of had them on their heels, was pressuring and we because of that had like felt three or four steals in a row. Then we were able to get, run, get easy baskets.”
— Jim Harbaugh [08:14]

Spotlight on Jalen Williams and Shai Gilgeous-Alexander (SGA)

Colin shifts the conversation to individual performances, particularly praising Jalen Williams for his consistent improvement and defensive capabilities:

“Look at the last six years of Jalen Williams basketball journey. Santa Clara 7, then 11 points, then 18, then to the NBA 14, 19, 21. No shortcuts. Gradual improvement.”
— Colin Cowherd [11:00]

He underscores the value of college basketball's rigorous environment in developing players who excel defensively, contrasting it with the G League's often less structured pathways.

Nick Wright concurs, highlighting the maturity and work ethic of these players:

“... these are really focused, mature teams and it's impressive. ... Defense is about effort and work. Nobody's born a great defensive player.”
— Nick Wright [15:09]

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3. Defense vs. Offense in Sports

Colin draws parallels between basketball and other sports, particularly the NFL, to illustrate how defense often triumphs over high-powered offenses in championship scenarios. He references iconic teams like the Bad Boy Pistons and the New England Patriots under Belichick to reinforce his point.

“It's like the Bad Boy Pistons. Yep, they kept beating MJ. It could be Belichick's defense in New England beating the greatest show on turf.”
— Colin Cowherd [07:30]

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4. Critique of Chicago Bears' Coaching

The conversation takes a critical turn towards the Chicago Bears and their head coach, Matt Eberflus. Colin scrutinizes Eberflus's coaching decisions, particularly in high-pressure road games, questioning the effectiveness of his strategies and preparation.

“Matt Eberfluss never won a road game on a Sunday ... He didn't call his quarterback a life preserver. Clearly he's not an overly confrontational guy.”
— Colin Cowherd [25:34]

Jim Harbaugh briefly chimes in, supporting the criticism:

“... we've always had daily coached film sessions.”
— Jim Harbaugh [22:51]

This segment highlights the frustration with coaching philosophies that fail to capitalize on defensive strengths, ultimately costing the Bears crucial games.

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5. Quarterback Analysis

Brock Purdy’s Performance

Nick Wright brings Brock Purdy into the discussion, defending his abilities despite criticisms:

“He's not Mike Vick or Josh Allen, but he can scramble and make plays happen. ... He's not a checkdown guy. He will throw it down the field.”
— Nick Wright [27:17]

Colin counters with a more measured assessment:

“He's limited as an athlete. He will throw it down the field but doesn't have the Derek Carr, Kirk Cousins quality.”
— Colin Cowherd [28:32]

Cleveland Browns' Quarterback Situation

The hosts debate the Browns’ rumored strategy to roster four quarterbacks, a move unprecedented in recent NFL history. They speculate on the implications for team dynamics and potential roster deficiencies.

“If nobody goes down, then you have a decision to make. ... But I'm not giving up two starters for one.”
— Nick Wright [30:54]

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6. LeBron James on 'Ring Culture' and All-Time Greats Debate

A significant portion of the episode is dedicated to LeBron James' comments on the obsession with championships ("ring culture") in the NBA. LeBron's stance sparks a debate on what defines an all-time great player.

LeBron James is quoted (approx. [31:32]) criticizing the overemphasis on championships as the sole criterion for greatness:

“I don't know why it's discussed so much in our sport and why it's the A to B all of everything... It’s just weird to me.”

Colin and Nick engage in a spirited debate over the criteria for all-time greatness, referencing players like Charles Barkley, Dan Marino, and Kevin Durant.

“He’s not an all-time great [Steve Nash], you cannot put him in the same class with Magic Johnson. And Nash wouldn't Steph Curry all time great Steve Nash MVP.”
— Colin Cowherd [33:27]

Nick Wright challenges this notion by asserting:

“Is Steve Nash, two-time MVP, not an all-time great because he didn’t win a ring?”
— Nick Wright [33:48]

The discussion evolves to focus on Kevin Durant’s trade rumors and his impact on the league, with Colin defending Durant’s skills and questioning the market dynamics preventing his placement in bigger markets like New York.

“Kevin Durant shooting. I saw this today. Dude is a bucket he shot 53% from mid-range.”
— Colin Cowherd [46:15]

Nick raises concerns about Durant’s marketability and financial demands, which Colin addresses by emphasizing Durant's on-court value and his role in improving team performance.

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7. Conclusion

The episode wraps up with Colin reiterating the essential balance between offensive flair and defensive solidity in achieving championship success. He commends players who exemplify this balance and emphasizes the enduring importance of defense in sports.

“Defense is like two-factor authentication. It’s tedious and aggravating and makes you work harder.”
— Colin Cowherd [14:12]

Colin encourages listeners to respect and appreciate the often unsung heroes of defensive play, underscoring that true championship caliber teams prioritize defensive effort and teamwork above all.

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Notable Quotes:

• Colin Cowherd [07:11]: “When a historically great defense meets a fast-paced or dynamic offense, the defense usually prevails.”
• Jim Harbaugh [08:14]: “We were very disruptive defensively... then we were able to get, run, get easy baskets.”
• Colin Cowherd [11:00]: “Look at the last six years of Jalen Williams basketball journey. ... Gradual improvement.”
• Colin Cowherd [25:34]: “Matt Eberfluss never won a road game on a Sunday...”
• Nick Wright [27:17]: “He's not Mike Vick or Josh Allen, but he can scramble and make plays happen.”
• LeBron James [31:32]: “I don't know why it's discussed so much in our sport and why it's the A to B all of everything.”
• Colin Cowherd [33:27]: “He's not an all-time great [Steve Nash], you cannot put him in the same class with Magic Johnson.”

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Conclusion:

In this episode, The Herd with Colin Cowherd offers a comprehensive analysis of the indispensable role of defense in securing championships, using the Oklahoma City Thunder’s strategy as a case study. Through engaging discussions with sports experts, the podcast underscores the nuanced interplay between individual player development, coaching strategies, and team dynamics. Additionally, the debate on "ring culture" versus individual greatness challenges listeners to reconsider traditional metrics of athletic success.

Transcript

[Colin Cowherd]

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[Colin Cowherd]

To the Heard podcast. Be sure to catch us live every weekday on Fox Sports Radio at noon.

[Jason McIntyre]

To 3 Eastern, 9am to noon Pacific.

[Colin Cowherd]

Find your local station for the [e-mail].

[Jason McIntyre]

Or stream us live every day on.

[Colin Cowherd]

The iHeartRadio app by searching Fox Sports Radio or FSR. Now let's get this party started. You're listening to Fox Sports Radio. Here we go. It is a Tuesday. This is gonna be a good one. Jim Harbaugh, Nick Wright stopped by J. Mac and I joining you. You know J. Mac, sometimes as a young broadcaster you don't pay the respect that certain teams and players so richly deserve. And I'm watching OKC last night and this is a very good. You follow the NBA draft? It's a very domestic draft. It is a very good draft. People are speculating there is 12 to 14 players in this draft that could be at some point in an all star like it's a. It's one of our better drafts in a while. And OKC has the first pick out of the lottery. They got two picks in this first round and they may have five of the top 30 defenders in the NBA right now. Two guys who made the all defensive team. But you got to be honest, J. Mac, I know they're not aesthetically pleasing, but they're an all time defense.

[Nick Wright]

Yeah, well, there's a reason I've got a different facial hair look this morning, Colin. That's because I've been going into witness protection because I've been bashing these guys all season and now they're going to be the champs. That's what I have to do.

[Colin Cowherd]

Well, let's do. I think the series is over okay going back to Indy, but I think it's over with Halliburton's injury. But once again, when a historically great defense meets a fast paced or dynamic offense, the defense usually prevails. Times a flat circle. History repeats itself. It could be the Bad Boy Pistons. Yep, they kept beating mj. It could be Belichick's defense in New England beating the greatest show on turf. It could be a Saban's dynasty time after time dominating a great offense. The truth is the Pacers have the lead leading pace and they look at times completely out of sorts, overwhelmed by this relentless defense which again may have five of the top 30 defenders in the league. It's got a Seattle Seahawks legion a boon feel where it's like fast and relentless and well coached and twitchy and aggressive. Go ask Peyton and Manning about it. Even when Brady beat him in the super bowl, it was a defensive interception. The Patriots game plan was catch it and go forward. Do not run side to side or they'll strip you of the ball or tackle you for a loss. That's how much the Seahawks defense was in Brady and Peyton Manning's head in Halliburton's injury. That's like the one way to beat him. Halliburton's pace, his quirky, herky jerky style, it can be hard to defend. He moves the ball so well. He's hurt now, so. We spend so much time in basketball discussing offense, KD and the Splash brothers. No, those teams had the best defense in the league. Michael Jordan's Bulls, M.J. rodman and Pippen. First team all NBA defense multiple times. The Kansas City Chiefs wide receiving corps been a mess the last two years. The run game sometimes disappears. Last time they won a Super Bowl. Yeah, Spags defense was number two in the NFL and that's why the Lions died, not Jared Goff. They couldn't stop anybody. They were all beat up. Yeah, I know SGA doesn't dunk a lot and you don't know much about Jalen Williams, but there's a reason James Harden, Dominique Wilkins Mellow and Allen Iverson have no titles. You gotta make stops too. Yeah, yeah. Iverson stole a lot of balls. Yeah, he cheated on passing lanes, but in the end he didn't guard anybody. Oklahoma's City's offense, especially on the road, can disappear at times. It can be a little hit and miss. It's very young. Young players don't play as well on the road. If SGA is not getting to the free throw line, then a lot of time that Thunder offense on the road, it can have bad quarters. But here's what travels well. Defense. And The Indiana Pacers are.07 in the playoffs when they score under 110 points. Yep, that's the series. And without Halliburton. Good luck. So defense is not just about steals. It's not just about blocks. It's like defense. Great defense is like two factor authentication. It's just tedious and aggravating and it makes you work a little harder and it really is annoying. And that's really the defense for Oklahoma City. The ball pressure on the perimeter. Meaning if you do get past him, you're off balance, there's always a body on you. And then Holmgren is a great rim protector. So like he didn't have a great offensive series, but he can defend you on the wing at 7, 2 or he can defend you at the basket. Even when you try to get put backs off block shots. Those can get blocked. Last night I think, okay, he had 14 blocks. But it's not just about blocks and steals. It is the constant pressure. The minute you take it over half court they make it constantly uncomfortable and in the end it's switchable, it's twitchy. Guys can guard you outside all the way down the floor, they can block a shot at the rim and sga, their best offensive player notices.

[Jim Harbaugh]

We were very disruptive defensively. Kind of had them on their heels, was pressuring and we because of that had like felt three or four steals in a row. Then we were able to get, run, get, get out and run, get easy baskets. But yeah, it always starts defensively for us.

[Colin Cowherd]

Yes, defense first. When historically great defenses meet fast paced or dynamic offenses, often the result is this. And even when you do have all time great offenses, the Randy Moss Patriots, they didn't win a Super bowl. They did that. The defense wasn't as good as. And the Katy warriors, they were great defensively. Iggy at one point got an MVP of a finals. I want to talk about Jalen Williams. So I have been on this kick for multiple years about Jalen Williams, not Jalen Williams, but on this kick is that the NBA has tried to marginalize college basketball for years and I think it's a huge mistake. Where are all the G league stars in this final? Where's Scoot Henderson? Anybody seen Jonathan Kaminga? Jalen Williams, small college, military parents, three years grinding his butt off. Not seeking a shorter route or a quick buck. College basketball's got better coaching. Major March madness environments, packed houses, TV pressure. I'm going to show our TV audience this. Look at the last six years of Jalen Williams basketball journey. Look at these numbers. Santa Clara 7, then 11 points, then 18, then to the NBA 14, 19, 21. No shortcuts. Gradual improvement. He's got the touch that tells you he has spent so long in the gym. He can score in transition, he can hit a three. He's got mid range but it's that beautiful touch around the basket with his enormous length. That's time in the gym. And there'll be a point at some point. I think Adam Silver is now realizing it, that the NBA will treat college basketball like the NFL's always treated college football as an adversary, as an ally. The coaching's intense, the environments are intense. You come into the NFL, you've played in Blacksburg or Tuscaloosa, you played In Austin or Norman, Oklahoma or Madison, Wisconsin or Athens, Georgia. You played in front of 100,000 people to Saturday night. It's been intimidating. Ain't getting that in the G league. You're not getting big time coaching in the G League. Look at this finals. Look at Jalen Williams is just what this finals is all about. Jalen Williams, Tyrese Halliburton, Nem Hart, Alex Caruso, TJ McConnell, Pascal Siakam, NI Smith, Obi Toppin. Lot of guys who spent multiple years in college grinding. Oh, yeah, there's a one and done guy here or there. Not a lot of G leaguers. Not a lot of G leaguers. When I watched Jalen Williams last night, dude, that dude has grinded his way to being an offensive machine. He didn't just get 40, 56% from the floor. Only had one turnover. Super efficient. I mean, that. That is what it takes to be great. Halliburton was overlooked. Jalen Williams goes to Santa Clara. I'm not saying SGA shouldn't be a one and done or a Miles Turner. Some of these guys, you know, they're just. They're just like prodigies. But Oklahoma City may not be a riveting team, but I respect the hell out of them. The culture, the coaching, the grind. You listen, offense is fun, defense is work. Oklahoma City plays defense like a hard coached college team. And here's Jalen Williams, a 40 spot last night.

[Jalen Williams]

Every time you play in the finals, it's the biggest game of your life. You know what I mean? So I think that's giving me a little more comfort and just like playing hard and playing aggressive. I think I just understand the opportunity that we have, and I just try and play as hard as I can and then whatever happens after that is is where the chips fall. But I'd be lying if I said I couldn't imagine doing what I did tonight, but I definitely could have seen myself here a long time ago. I just didn't think it would happen this past and I didn't think it would be with a group of guys that, you know, I truly am, like.

[Colin Cowherd]

Grateful to be around to play this level of defense. The Seahawks may have fallen apart later and pointed fingers. The Seahawks culture maybe didn't last forever, but generally to be a great defensive team, it's teamwork, it's chemistry, it's coaching. You've got to all be tied together by a string. You have to believe in the same thing. That's why I criticize guys like Luca. I'm like, dude, it can't just be about getting buckets. You got to defend on the other end or else it. It tears at the fabric. Because defense is all about effort and work. Nobody's born a great defensive player. There are people that are born long and good genetics. They're long and they can be athletic and they've got like, you know, the right hips to be a corner, you know. But defense, nobody comes out of the womb. All NBA first team defense, that is effort. There have been great big sewer defenders, small players who are great defenders. I mean, Alex Caruso, that is effort. To be a defender like Alex Crusoe, he's guarding guys seven inches taller. That is effort. And Jalen Williams on both end. I watch Oklahoma City, man. I respect that culture. Those are workers. Even SGA's game, he's not jumping over you. He's not dunking over you. That's just years in the gym. J Mac, it is time you paid a little respect.

[Nick Wright]

Wow.

[Colin Cowherd]

To the Thunder. Wow.

[Nick Wright]

Colin, I gotta say, bravo. That is a great take on Jalen Williams. I'm not gonna lie. The audience couldn't see it. But when you said, I want to talk about Jalen Williams, I honestly rolled my eyes like, oh, what? What is he the best number two in the league? Colin, that's a great take because you're spot on. This guy, when he came out of college, I remember he was drafted 12th overall and there was a guy sitting there who just won MVP of the final four. O AI from Kansas, and I'm like, why are they taking this guy over? Akbadji, who just won the MVP of the final four and Oklahoma City saw something in him and you're right, he stuck around in college. Slow growth. Colin, that's a great take. I totally agree with you. And I wonder if you look at this draft coming up, are we going to see more guys instead of, hey, let's just grab a freshman. Is there a junior or senior who can help us win in the next like two years?

[Colin Cowherd]

Well, I think what you're seeing between Halliburton and Siakam and Jalen Williams and sga, you know what I'm seeing?

[Jason McIntyre]

Maturity.

[Colin Cowherd]

I'm seeing these are really focused, mature teams and it's impressive. I'm like, I don't care what the TV ratings are like. All I know is when I watch this final, I see committed athletes that are coachable that work their butt off. I don't want to talk about Scott Foster. I want to talk about the defense and the pacing and the maturity and the effort. There are a lot of good basketball players. When I watch, when I watch sga, when I watch Jalen Williams, I. You can see the time in the gym to have Jalen Williams touch. Yeah, he can shoot at three. He's got a mid range game. He's still, he's got handles, he's got beautiful touch. Do you know that again, that's in the gym.

[Nick Wright]

And it's funny, that is work because remember the one and done guys, Ben Mather and had one good showing. Otherwise he's been kind of all over the place. And I'm not bashing Chet Holmgren, he was terrible last night. I think like 4 for 15 shooting. Yeah, another one and done guy. And I'm not blasting them, but they don't have the maturity to consistently show up the way some of these other veterans have. That's. Listen, that's one of your better takes this summer, Colin.

[Colin Cowherd]

Well done. Well, I really appreciate. I didn't know we had a leaderboard on that, but I do appreciate it. Nick Wright and Jim Harbaugh. Today, be sure to catch live editions of the Herd, weekdays at noon Eastern, 9am Pacific on Fox Sports Radio. FS1. And the summer is here and you.

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[Colin Cowherd]

You ever have somebody in your family, they think they work hard or they think they eat well, or they think they put in the time in the gym and then you hang around them for a while and be like, nah, not really, bro. Not.

[Jason McIntyre]

Not really.

[Colin Cowherd]

In the NFL, if you look at teams that play well on the road because home field advantage is two to three points and a lot of people are more comfortable at home, you know, the crowd can be tough to deal with on the road sometimes in football in certain stadiums. But when you're on the road and you win, it usually means defense is pretty good and you're a buttoned up franchise. You don't make a lot of mistakes. Matt Eberfluss, the Chicago Bears coach, never won a road game on a Sunday. He was 0 for 18. And like that guy in your family who thinks they work hard but they really don't, he thinks the Bears are buttoned up. He'll argue the Bears were buttoned up. So why is this a story? Well, there's, there's a lot of back and forth defending Caleb Williams and criticizing Caleb Williams, the Bears young quarterback who wasn't as bad as everybody says in his first year because he actually set some Chicago Bear rookie quarterback records considering he ended the season with the passing game coordinators head coach and the division was about as good as it's ever been. Detroit, Green Bay and Minnesota were all really good and Kayla Williams was okay. But Caleb Williams had said in Seth Wickersham's new book that he didn't, he didn't feel like Shane Waldron gave him personalized coaching regularly and that that backed up what Taylor Dahl had said in a podcast. He was a Chicago podcaster in an expose in February. He just didn't get good enough coaching. So Matt Eberfluss is now saying, oh no, we were buttoned up. We were very good on the details. Here's Matt Eberfluss on the Doomsday podcast.

[Jim Harbaugh]

In the development of the quarterback position and really all positions. At my time at the Bears, we've always had daily coached film sessions that.

[Nick Wright]

Was out through the entire year.

[Colin Cowherd]

So that's what I observed and that's where it was. Okay, so to me, between the road statistic that Matt Eber flush never won a road game on a Sunday, that leads me to believe this team was loose. But the other two things that lead me to believe that are on Matt Eberfluss. Number one, the Hail Mary lost to Washington where he had a defensive back. Forget the setup play when he gave Washington 15 yards for free, that was bad coaching. But you had three timeouts left, didn't call one as a defensive back is jawing for the Bears with the road fans and then you give up. And this can be luck, a Hail Mary. You had three timeouts. Call one, make the offense think that's not good coaching. And again, I'm not even going to show you the play before that, that set that up, which is where they gave the commanders 15 yards. Would Belichick in his prime do that? No, this. And by the way, Eber Fluss never addressed it. In fact, reportedly this is according to published reports. It annoyed veterans on the team that he didn't call out the young db. So clearly he's not an overly confrontational guy. Kind of the Mike d' Antoni of the NBA that he just. He acknowledged. I don't like confrontation. Eberfluss clearly didn't like confrontation. Veteran players were upset how he handled the Hail Mary loss. The second moment, again, I can't blame anybody. But evrbal loose was that road game where they had the Detroit Lions beat.33 seconds left. They're close to field goal range. Jay. Caleb Williams had just been sacked. He was out of sorts. The clock is winding down. Road game against a better team, you need a timeout. And Matt Eber Fluss did not throw his quarterback a life preserver. He can't hear. It's 33 seconds. He's a rookie. He's on the road. Detroit's one of the NFL's loudest stadiums. Where's the coaching? So between the fact that he could never win a road game on a Sunday in Chicago, the Hail Mary loss, some of it's luck, some of it's not coaching again, the 15 yards they gave up before the Hail Mary that set it up and that, that play and after that play like the Hail Mary loss, he said, you know what I would do it the same way.

[Jason McIntyre]

Wow.

[Colin Cowherd]

Okay. It's one thing to not be buttoned up, to be flimsy on the details and then not address the Hail Mary loss and then, and then double down on. Yeah, I thought that's the way you should coach. So I'm not going to really take, and I got nothing against Matt Eberfluz, but I'm not going to take his words about being detailed, prepared and buttoned up seriously because I think everybody would agree. And I'm not saying this because I like Caleb Williams, which I do at some point. Your resume is the truth. I've never heard of a coach who coached multiple years who never won a road game on a Sunday. And it's not like the Bears didn't have some really nice personnel. J. Mac with the news.

[Jim Harbaugh]

No, no, no, turn on the news.

[Colin Cowherd]

This is the Herd line news.

[Nick Wright]

All right, Kyle, let's start with your favorite quarterback in mind. Brock Purdy. Yes, it's Brock Pie season just got paid in the Escalade. And listen, man, he's been to a Super bowl, two NFC title games, he's had a great run. George KD is now defending his guy, Brock Pie. It's almost like George Kittle watches this show. Here's what George Kittle told Rich Eisen this week.

[Colin Cowherd]

I don't know what his winning percentage is, but when you win a lot of games and then the only what, two, two years ago to NFC championship or better, I, you know, I think that, I think that's decent. And you know the one actually one of my favorite, one of my favorite things about Birdie's, everyone calls him a check down merchant. And then like the last two years, he's had the least amount of checkdowns in the NFL as a starting quarterback. Yeah. So I think he's doing pretty well.

[Nick Wright]

I don't look at that.

[Colin Cowherd]

I don't call him a checkdown guy. I don't think Brock Purdy, I think he throws the deep ball better than Garofalo. I've never said he's a check down guy. I've said he has small hands. If it's overcast. He's not the same quarterback and he's limited, but he's not a check down guy. He will throw it down the field. I think he's, he's got better athleticism than people give him credit for. He's obviously a bright kid. He's a tough kid. He, he has, he'll throw the ball down the field that I've never felt he's got like that Derek Carr, Kirk Cousins quality that drives me nuts. I just think he's limited as an athlete. I think he's a limited, limited guy playing from behind against a great defense.

[Nick Wright]

Limited as an athlete. I mean, there are games we could call up where he was just scrambling for his life and making plays. So I would push back on that a little bit. No, he's not Mike Vick or Josh Allen, but he can scramble and make plays happen. You know, you listen to some of these quarterback analysts. There's, there isn't really a throw that Brock Purdy cannot make. Remember, Garoppolo would not throw to certain areas because he didn't have the arm. Kind of limiting Shanahan's offense. Purdy's making those throws outside the numbers deep. He can make every throw. Now he's not doing Josh Allen, Patrick Mahomes type stuff, but who is? Those are historically great quarterbacks. At some point this summer when you rank the quarterbacks. Colin.

[Colin Cowherd]

Yeah.

[Nick Wright]

I hope Purdy's in your top 10.

[Colin Cowherd]

No, no, no. There is one throw he didn't make last year. Winning touchdowns, throws against playoff teams. Didn't make a lot of those throws last year.

[Nick Wright]

Was that what he was missing his entire offense? Oh, yeah. Okay, good. All right, next story is your another quarterback room you cannot stop talking about. And that's the Cleveland Frowns. I mean Browns. It sounds like. According to a report out of Cleveland, the Browns May roster All four quarterbacks on their 53 man roster this season. Now I tried to do research on this, Colin. I couldn't find a team in the last three years to roster four quarterbacks at the start of the season. Now if guys get injured, that's one thing, but to start the season with four quarterbacks on the active roster, that is new territory. I feel like that's probably a bluff from the Browns because you can't, you can't have four quarterbacks on the roster, Colin. You're then deficient. Well, on the offensive line, the secondary, wherever, you know.

[Colin Cowherd]

Yeah, I, I, I, I can't wait to see the conclusion of this. I'm really actually very, you know, listen, it's June and we all know June, July and August is a slower time in our industry. But I do think it's interesting that now it's even being suggested they would keep four quarterbacks because I got to tell you, if they bail on Shador Sanders, they're not. Well, who are they bailing on? They're not keeping four. Who are they bailing on?

[Nick Wright]

Well, I Think the hope is that they can flip Picket for someone in August when a quarterback goes down.

[Colin Cowherd]

Okay, that's what I think.

[Nick Wright]

Now, if nobody goes down, then you have a decision to make. Right. But like, what? I'm, I'm not sure what the move is. You need vets. They love Dylan Gabriel. Are you going to be outraged if Shador is not on the active roster?

[Colin Cowherd]

No, I'm not saying. I, I think what they're doing is they're saying great things about Kenny Pickett, a lot of positive vibes about Kenny Pickett, and they will move him to a team that needs a quarterback. I mean, nobody's going to go out. I mean, there may be a team that is interested in Shador Sanders, but I don't think teams are actively going to pursue Joe Flacco and the two young guys. I could see somebody saying, listen, we need a four game starter in September. We got somebody hurt in camp. Our quarterback's going to be back first week of October. Kenny Pickett can win us a couple games. We like our roster. I can see that happening.

[Nick Wright]

Well, it's interesting because, like, this idea you just said someone might be interested in Shador. Bro, he was in the draft. Anybody could have taken him. Nobody took him. So I don't know that there's like a market for Shador Sanders. Kenny Pickett is interesting. He did just win a Super Bowl. I have to say that he didn't play. He was not non factor. All right, final story. Colin. I wanted to save some room. We need some space to operate here. Ring culture. Well, everybody's favorite NBA player, LeBron James, he was on his podcast Mind the Game and talked about how he's tired of the ring culture in the league and blasted that thought process.

[Jim Harbaugh]

I don't know why it's discussed so much in our sport and why it's the a all be all of everything. Like, okay, you weren't a great player if you never won a championship. It's like you sit here and tell me, you know, Allen Iverson and Charles Barkley and Steve Nash, you know, you know, our wasn't unbelievable. Like, oh, they can't be talked about or discussed with these guys because this guy won one ring or won two rings or one. Like, it's just. It's just weird to me.

[Colin Cowherd]

Yeah, well, I could, I could go two different ways. The bottom line, if you're an all time great, tell me the all time greats, greats that don't have titles in the NBA. Barkley and I would say this. I Love Charles. Charles wasn't going to give you a lot at practice. Charles wasn't always going to give you a ton of the defensive end. Charles was uniquely historically gifted offensively. But Barkley is like Dan Marino, an all time talent. But there's a reason Dan Marino got to one Super Bowl. He had a great coach. It wasn't coaching. I never thought Marino fought the game. He was just an incredibly unique offensive talent. But I didn't. I don't think he did himself favors at the offensive line. I thought he could be stubborn. I thought. I think there's a reason Dan got to one in that pit and Barkley didn't win a championship. Now I will say the Phoenix team did give Chicago trouble. They were a great team. And before the three point shot was in vogue they were scoring 125. It was a great team. Some of it's just Jordan was unbeatable.

[Nick Wright]

We need to back up to your statement. It's tough to find an all time great who didn't win a title. I need you to define all time great because Barkley's considered a top 25 player in the history of basketball. To me that's an all time great. Is that.

[Colin Cowherd]

But he's close. He's closer to 25 than to one.

[Nick Wright]

Correct.

[Colin Cowherd]

I mean Magic Bird, Kareem Wilt, Russell, MJ, Kobe, Shaq. Okay, Duncan, you start going through the all time greats. They all have rings. So.

[Nick Wright]

So are you saying Steve Nash, two time MVP is not an all time great because he didn't win a race?

[Colin Cowherd]

No, no. He's a great player. He's not an all time great. I know Steve, I love Steve. You cannot put him in the same class with Magic Johnson. And Nash wouldn't Steph Curry all time great Steve Nash mvp. Okay, so they're different.

[Nick Wright]

Well, Jason Kidd has it. So Steven is a top five point guard all time or top six point card all time. Doesn't that mean he's an all time again?

[Colin Cowherd]

6, 7 Stockton. It's by the way you talk all time point guards. What are we going to do with sga?

[Nick Wright]

Oh yeah, he's an automatically an all time great. Now he has a ring.

[Colin Cowherd]

No, I'm not saying automatically but he's on his way for the next eight years to be the highest scoring point outside of Steph Curry. So what do we he'll be in the class of the top seven or eight. I'll give you an example. Tell me the all time great quarterbacks who don't have a ring. Favre Rodgers, Elway, just go. Mahomes, Brady. No, that's what I'm saying. They all do, except Elway, which is why I don't put Elway in this top five class.

[Nick Wright]

Elway got two at the end. Elway got two at the end.

[Colin Cowherd]

No, it wasn't just that he got two. He kept getting to Super Bowls. He's the best prospect ever. So my take is what LeBron is saying. You can't be a great player. No, no, you can be a great player. Barkley's a great player, Marino is a great player. But I'm, it is. The bottom line is the all time greats break through either intellectually, physically, talent, production, they're more amenable to coaching. I mean, why do we always say Marino and Barkley they're the exceptions. They're the exceptions, the greats. And again, I am not ring obsessed. I am not, I mean, Bill Russell's got 11, Jordan six. Jordan's the better player. I'm not ringing ring obsessed. But there's a reason Giannis has won. Why? Because you can't trust him late to hit a free throw. He's never, he's never developed a jumper.

[Nick Wright]

He's never been the favorite ever coming into the season because he's in Milwaukee with a mediocre team. Chris Middleton was his wingman. Come on. Well, listen, this discussion is very different.

[Colin Cowherd]

There's a reason he hasn't developed a mid range game.

[Nick Wright]

Let me ask you, is LeBron bringing this up because he's not going to catch Michael Jordan in rings and he needs everybody to know that's all Jordan has on LeBron, more rings. That's it. And it doesn't mean Jordan broke through. It means he played in an easier era. Right. Their super team era is much tougher right now to break through than it was in the 90s after Magic and Bird retired. So I think LeBron is subtly taking a jab at Michael Jordan here. That, that, that would be my.

[Colin Cowherd]

Well, I, I, I, I'm not going to try to guess what, what's in his head. But, but I think what he's conflating, he's basically saying nobody will say you're a great player without rings. Yeah, we do, we think Steve Nash a great player and Barkley's a great player. But when you, when you get into the all time great, it's just wild exceptions. Barkley and Marino are like the exceptions. It's like saying you're an all time great golfer, then you're going to win majors.

[Nick Wright]

Well, that's individual sport. This is team with a GM and putting stuff together.

[Colin Cowherd]

I still think in the NBA, the great players around the league want to play with great players. Like there were players that went to Miami with LeBron and said, I don't care. I. Shane B. Is like, I'll go play. Ray Allen's like, I'll leave Boston, I'll go to Miami. Other really good players want to join great players. KD joined Steph Curry.

[Nick Wright]

Okay, I had to look this up.

[Colin Cowherd]

Hold on.

[Nick Wright]

Barry Bonds never won a World Series. At least I don't count.

[Colin Cowherd]

I don't count baseball. I don't count baseball.

[Jason McIntyre]

Why?

[Colin Cowherd]

You get four at bats, you don't pitch. Football and basketball and soccer. In soccer, you control the tempo. You get. Like hockey, if you're an all time great hockey player, you're gonna win a Stanley Cup. You're gonna control the offense, you're gonna control the puck. Gretzky, if you're an all time great soccer player, tennis player, skier, basketball, football. Baseball is a totally different animal. You can't pitch. I mean, as good as you are, you bat four times and I can by the way, intentionally walk you.

[Nick Wright]

I mean, you.

[Colin Cowherd]

If I want, four times.

[Nick Wright]

Like, you know defensive players in the NFL, they can't play quarterbacks, so they get shafted and can't be an all time great because they only play one side of the.

[Colin Cowherd]

No, but, no, we're not, we're not talking defensive.

[Nick Wright]

Dan Marino never had a defense in Miami ever. I mean, look it up, the numbers. He never had a good defense. Like, is that his fault? Does that keep him out of the all time great club? That seems unfair to me.

[Colin Cowherd]

You're going to tell me Don Shula's team never had a good defense in the 1980s?

[Nick Wright]

I mean, that's just. Sorry. The 90s, the stack guys looked it up. They were never, I think maybe one top 10 defense in his life, you know.

[Colin Cowherd]

All right, well, I mean, Aaron Rodgers only had one top 10 defense in his career in Green Bay and he won a ring.

[Nick Wright]

Did want a ring.

[Colin Cowherd]

Look at me defending Aaron Rodgers. Yes.

[Nick Wright]

You've gone to the dark side.

[Colin Cowherd]

J. Mac with the news. Well, that's the news. And thanks for stopping by. The Herd lie news.

[Jason McIntyre]

Yeah.

[Colin Cowherd]

And sga. I was just. My staff said this SGA is going to become only the fourth player to win the scoring title. MVP in Finals. MVP in the same season. So whether you like him or not, you don't think his game is, you know, aesthetically pleasing. He's going to be in the all time discussion here. Real quick. When you are, you know, you're the point guard, you lead the league in scoring. There's just not. There's not a lot of guys that did that. Magic's not leading the league in scoring. Isaiah is not leading the league in scoring. Stockton certainly isn't. It's kind of a staff FTA class. There's not a lot of that. And by the way, he's also a decent distributor.

[Jason McIntyre]

He's not like he's.

[Colin Cowherd]

I don't think SGA is selfish. I mean, last night Jalen Williams has 40 SCA stepped aside. SCA is not a selfish player. By the way, the other three that did that, mj, Shaq and Cream. So he's going to be in that class. It's the Herd. Be sure to catch live editions of the Herd. Weekdays at noon Eastern, 9am Pacific.

[Jason McIntyre]

Summer is here and you can now get almost anything you need for your sunny days delivered with Uber Eats. Now what do we mean by almost? Well, you can't get a well groomed lawn delivered, but you can get chicken parm delivered. A day at the lake? That's a no. A Philly cheesesteak? That's a yes. A nice tan? Sorry. A box fan? Happily, yes. What about a day of sunshine? Not happening. How about a box of fine wines? Yeah, that's happening. Delivery's on its way. Okay, how about some clear skies? Nope. Well, how about some French fries? Yeah. So how about a freshly cut lawn? Can't help you there. But a barbecued prawn? Order it and it's on its way. Even throw in some paper towels. Clean up after the feast. So while you can't get fun in the sun delivered, don't worry because you can get pork buns delivered. Uber Eats can definitely get you that. Get almost almost anything delivered with Uber Eats. Order now. Alcohol in select markets. Product availability may vary by region. See app for details. At the end of the season, there's only one team that can call themselves NBA champs.

[Colin Cowherd]

Only one player that can call themselves the number one pick in the NFL draft.

[Jason McIntyre]

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[Colin Cowherd]

What I love about the IX is.

[Jason McIntyre]

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[Colin Cowherd]

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[Jason McIntyre]

Not to mention how much space and utility it provides. Over 75 cubic feet of cargo space. The IX is completely changing the game with an all electric suv. The greatest legends of sports never compromise.

[Colin Cowherd]

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[Jason McIntyre]

So why would you settle for anything less from your suv. After all, there's only one ultimate the BMW ix. Everything you love about the ultimate driving.

[Colin Cowherd]

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[Jason McIntyre]

If you're an inventory specialist in a warehouse, Grainger knows you've probably faced a situation like this before. Your forklift, your facility's workhorse, is leaking hydraulic fluid and with a full schedule of shipments on the docket, this has the potential to cause a major delay of game. But you're not worried. You're prepared for this type of situation and you have an ace in the hole. Grainger. Grainger offers professional grade products for every industry from hydraulic oils and hoses, so much more.

[Colin Cowherd]

Plus fast, dependable delivery so you can.

[Jason McIntyre]

Be confident that you'll have the product you need on hand to fix that forklift and get it back in the game.

[Colin Cowherd]

Call 1-800-granger.

[Jason McIntyre]

Click granger.com or just stop by Grainger for the ones who get it done.

[Nick Wright]

Sunday, Alex Palou looks to continue his legendary season at Road America. Well, the rest of the pack battle for the checkered flag. The Indy car series Sunday at 1:30 Eastern on Fox.

[Colin Cowherd]

You know, you would think getting the right teammate matters. My business, politics, sports, you want to make sure that the people you join forces with in any field, you could be listening to me right now in your car. You're in sales, you're in law, you're a schoolteacher. You want to join forces with people that prioritize the right stuff and I, I, I, I In sports it's competition. You want to prioritize winning. And I've always said I love Kevin Durant the player. Don't always love what he prioritizes. I want to have fun. I want to play with this guy because I like him. It's a little Aaron Rodgers like I love that you've got that artistic quality. I love what's on the canvas and I love the performance as the musical artist. But this is sports. There are standings. You got to prioritize winning. And I'm not saying that sports doesn't give us art. A pele bicycle kick. I mean Michael Jordan switching hands, OBJ's one handed catch. There's all sorts of stuff that looks like art. Dr. J in the 70s. I mean there was an artistic impression to the way Dr. J played, a certain flair to Dr. J. If you were a painter and you wanted to take any NBA player ever, you could do worse than choosing Dr. J. Matt Stafford, the no look pass there. There is art to sports, but there are standings and that matters. And I saw this story. Kevin Durant trade rumors again. Love the player. Haven't always loved what he prioritizes. Apparently. Mark Spears and Mark Stein, respected veteran reporters, say he wanted to go to the Knicks. The Knicks weren't interested. And Phoenix. Part of it was, it's reported in Phoenix by John A reporter, John Gamadoro, that Phoenix didn't want Carl Anthony Towns and they want more for Kevin Durant. And my take is, okay, timeout. Does everybody realize two players in the NBA last year, in the whole NBA, we've never had more skill in the league. Our seven footers can have handles, can put the ball on the floor, can defend the perimeter and shoot threes. Our seven footers can do that. Wemby can do that. Okay, Chad Holmgren can do that. Two players in the NBA average 25 points a game and shot over 40% from threes. Nicole Jokic and KD. And he's got very little market. He don't want to play in Minnesota. They take him. He doesn't have much of a market. Well, he's older. I don't care what he is. The athletes that Tom Brady was 44 and still a top five quarterback in the league. LeBron on any night can be a top three player in the league. Now he's not going to do it for 42 minutes, but he's still a great player in in moments. Kevin Durant shooting. I saw this today. I got to look this up. Dude is a bucket he shot 53% from mid range. That's number one in the whole league. He's a good teammate. He's a good guy. He doesn't need the ball in his hands, right? Like he can sit in the corner. Get him the ball. Three seconds left on the shot clock. Number one rated mid range shooter, 26 a night. Highly respected, absolutely impactful. Say what you want about the Brooklyn Nets and all the mess there he worked. Say what you want about Phoenix and Bradley Beal and the mess there he worked. He works everywhere. Dude, he's salt. He makes everything better. He may. He works everywhere. Why didn't he have a market? And this is my Aaron Rodgers thing. Aaron's still closer to a top 10 quarterback than a bottom 15 quarterback, isn't he? Why didn't he have a market? You've got to prioritize in sports. Winning.

[Jason McIntyre]

Why?

[Colin Cowherd]

Because winning gets an extension to the general manager's contract, the director of scouting's contract. If you don't prioritize winning as a quarterback, it gets the left tackle, another contract. Losing gets people fired. Crazy, impulsive. Owners can look at Carson Wentz, who had a great year last year in Indy. He doesn't play well against Jacksonville. Get him out of here. Whoa. They've been flailing ever since in Indy. So the bottom line here is I love Katie the player, but I just don't always think he has prioritized winning. In fact, years ago, it's probably. I could be wrong on the time. Was it eight, 10 years ago when Durant was winning finals MVPs and there was a really strong push that Durant was better than LeBron? And I said, well, if you're talking about a game of one on one, I'd probably take Durant. If you're talking one shot to win a game, I'd take Durant. And I've always liked Kevin's game. I think he's a good guy. I think he's funny, I think he's smart, I think he's impactful. I love Kevin Durant, but I said, the difference is, man, LeBron makes good choices. Like, he knew when to get out of Miami. He knew when everybody was getting old. When he went to Cleveland, he's like, not on Andrew Wiggins. Get me Kyrie Irving. Get me Kevin Love. When he went to Los Angeles, you know, there's a lot of young guys there. Lonzo ball, Kyle Kuzma. LeBron's like, no, I'm not interested. Get me AD. LeBron's made great choices. The big knock on LeBron was the decision where he gave millions of dollars to a boys and girls club. That was his bad day. Okay, maybe it wasn't handled perfectly, but if that's the bad day in your career, you give seven figures to a charity, I'm going to say it's not that bad. LeBron makes great choices and prioritizes. He really does. When even now we can say, well, LeBron's not as focused. LeBron prioritizes winning. He does. He always has. Criticize them all you want, it's about winning. Even at the end. Jordan didn't prioritize winning. He prioritized owning a team. He went to Washington. Michael Jordan wanted to get into ownership. Now it was a different time and a different era, and he didn't make the money LeBron's made. But LeBron didn't go to LA to own the Lakers. Now he may own the Las Vegas NBA team if it ever happens, but he went to Los Angeles because it was a big brand. And he thought, between business and basketball, I can win here, I can get stars who want to play here. And he got one Luca and AD So I just think there should be a bigger market for Kevin Durant. I, I and I, I think people look at him like, did you just want to have fun or does he really care about winning? I don't know. I don't, I don't know him. But I, I can't believe the guy, only joker in the NBA gave you 25 and 40% shooting. It is a shooter's league. How does he not have a bigger market? Well, he's expensive. So what? Teams like Oklahoma City are only paying one guy. A lot of these young. Who's Indiana really paying right now? The NBA's never been younger. A lot of the best players are not getting paid yet. Right. Like it's a have and a have not leak. Who's making money on okc? Sga? I, I, I would take Kevin Durant in a second. New York.

[Nick Wright]

So the problem is it's not that easy. So if you want him in New York, you have to trade assets to Phoenix and then. Wait, wait, Colin. KD wants a new deal. Two years, $100 million. So all of a sudden you're now paying KD 50 mil, Jalen Brunson a lot of money and the rest of it, you can't do it. It fiscally does not make sense. That's why nobody wants Kevin Durant at this point.

[Colin Cowherd]

Do you think the Knicks are better? Cat leaves and maybe OG leaves.

[Nick Wright]

Oh, My gosh, that's insane. You're way worse than losing two starters.

[Colin Cowherd]

For one, I think Kevin, I think Kevin Durant's game, he's a better defender than Cat. He's less quirky on the floor than Cat. You can have Brunson and Cat. Brunson and Durant on the floor at the same time is lethal. Brunson and Cat on the floor at the same time's a liability.

[Nick Wright]

Well, if you straight up, sure, I would.

[Colin Cowherd]

If I could have Josh Hart, Brunson, Kevin Durant, Mikhail Bridges, Mitchell, Robinson, and then again in the off season, find a bench player, a big. I think it's a better team you're.

[Nick Wright]

Getting you the, the Thunder and Pacers are showing you it's better to have depth than high end talent. So I'm not giving up two starters for one. I'm just not doing that. I think Kevin Durant ends up in like Atlanta or Charlotte and he's ticked off.

[Colin Cowherd]

He doesn't want to go there.

[Nick Wright]

No, that's not his choice.

[Colin Cowherd]

He has no, he's not going to resign. All right, Nick writes around hour two.

[Jason McIntyre]

Coming up. Looking to transform your business through better HR and payroll? Meet paycor, a paychecks company. The powerhouse solution that empowers leaders to drive results from recruiting and development to payroll and analytics. Paycor connects you with the people, data and expertise you need to succeed. Their innovative platform helps you make smarter decisions about your most valuable asset, your people. Are you ready to become a Better Leader? Visit paycor.com leaders to learn more. That's paycor.com leaders. Summer is here and you can now get almost anything you need for your sunny days delivered with Uber Eats. Now, what do we mean by almost? Well, you can't get a well groomed lawn delivered, but you can get chicken parm delivered. A nice tan. Sorry. A box fan? Happily, yes. A day of sunshine? No. A box of fine wines? Yes. Uber Eats can definitely get you that. Get almost, almost anything delivered with Uber Eats. Order now. Alcohol in select markets. Product availability may vary by region. See app for details.

[Colin Cowherd]

Hi, it's Colin. I've been around long enough to know.

[Jason McIntyre]

Quality when I see it. Or in this case, when I taste it. Tito's handmade vodka. Good stuff. No flash, no gimmick. Smooth, clean tasting. Made the right way. Tito's made in Austin, Texas. Real attention to detail. I like to keep it simple.

[Colin Cowherd]

Tito's soda, one lime.

[Jason McIntyre]

Lot of ice. Refreshing, easy. Summer, winter, spring. Totally versatile. Always works. Listen, baseball season's here.

[Colin Cowherd]

The perfect time to kick back with some Tito's.

[Jason McIntyre]

It's what I pour you should too. Distilled and bottled by 5th Generation Inc. Austin, Texas 40% alcohol by volume saver Responsibly BMW didn't just design an electric suv. Every detail of the BMW IX was crafted with passion and precision.

[Colin Cowherd]

With a BMW ix, you'll experience unmatched.

[Jason McIntyre]

Power, utility, spaciousness, versatility. My favorite feature cloud based navigation, monitors charge levels, locates nearby charging stations so I can drive electric with the ultimate ease. BMW lets performance do the talking and.

[Colin Cowherd]

The scouting report is in.

[Jason McIntyre]

Experience the all electric BMW IX and witness dedication in every detail.

[Colin Cowherd]

This is an iHeart podcast.