Alex Curry (2:51)

Thanks for listening to the Herd Podcast Be sure to catch us live every weekday on Fox Sports Radio and noon to 3 Eastern, 9am to noon Pacific. Find your local station for the herd@foxsportsradio.com or stream us live every day on the iHeartRadio app by searching Fox Sports Radio or FSR.

Jason McIntyre (3:11)

Now, let's get this party started.

Mitch Lawrence (3:13)

You're listening to Fox Sports Radio.

Jason McIntyre (3:18)

Hello and welcome back to the Herd. It's me, Jason McIntyre, here in LA on a Wednesday, and boy, do we have a spicy show ahead. I'm joined, as always, by Alex Curry. Alex, I. I had several people ask me about the ghost topic yesterday you brought up. And I know you're fired up about ghosts. No.

Unknown (3:40)

Okay. J Mai, the way you see it is like, you think, like, white sheets. Scary. No, I'm talking about like. Like you can feel energies. And it's funny because a lot of people bring it up to me, too. And it's all women who can feel it and see it.

Jason McIntyre (3:54)

We can't see anything.

Unknown (3:55)

No, but women have, like, strong intuition. I mean, we're basically like goddesses. We create life.

Jason McIntyre (4:00)

Pretty much. Yeah. I don't see the paper towel being empty, the toilet paper. I don't even see that stuff.

Unknown (4:06)

It's not like what you see in cartoons and movies.

Jason McIntyre (4:09)

Scooby Doo goes terrifying. All right, so listen, obviously we got to start the show with the big news in the NBA yesterday, but my New York Knicks, who finally seem to get their act together, right? Greatest season this century, and they fire their coach, Tom Thibodeau. He gets fired yesterday in what, like, the middle of the show. Alex and I were stunned. I was closer to the end of the show. And one interesting nugget trickled out overnight regarding how this happened, because, remember, a lot of folks, myself included, thought it maybe you just bring Thibodeau back and you run it back. You know, you guys, two games away from the NBA Finals, took down the defending champion Celtics. Why not run it back? But this nugget trickled out of the exit interviews. Apparently when the Knicks were interviewing Josh Hart, Mikhail Bridges, Jalen Brunson, one certain play person in the organization happened to sit in on those exit interviews, and that was James Dolan, who's largely been a ghost the last five years. You like that play on words. There's Dolan has not been around the Knicks because he's been running the sphere in Vegas and getting that off the ground. And obviously that's a great win for Mr. Dolan. But sitting in on the exit interviews and all of a Sudden boom, the head coach is gone. You have to wonder, did he hear something he didn't like? Well, we know that that something did not come from Jalen Brunson, who staunchly defended his coach after the Knicks were eliminated by the Pacers. We had a reporter say, well, what do you think about Tibbs? Is he going to make it back? And Brunson was like, is that a real question? We know Brunson likes Tibbs. He's known Tibbs since he was a young guy. Rick Brunson, his father, who's now on the Knicks staff, played for the Knicks. And like there's a lot of internal stuff. Brunson and Thibodeau were copacetic. But what we do know is that Josh Hart had beef at points this season with Thibodeau and Mikhail Bridges as recently as the middle of March piped up, why aren't we playing our bench? Why are we playing so many minutes? What's going on here? I mean, and the numbers bear it out. The Knicks starters average more points per game than any other starting unit in the last 45 years in the NBA. Tibbs does not trust his bench. Right. That's very well known. Happened in Chicago, unfortunately. After that you saw Derrick Rose wear down, you saw Joe Kim, Noah, like these guys careers, Luol Dang. Their careers kind of ended early because Tibbs ran him into the ground. And the Knicks players clearly pushed back on that. Bridges actually mentioned in March. Yeah, we got Landry Shamut. Why isn't he playing more? Well, Tibbs I guess saw the light and started playing Landry Shamut in the Pacer series. But unfortunately it was a little bit too late. Landry Shamet couldn't save the day. So now you have to wonder like does this change the trajectory of say Carl Anthony Towns? Now we know he is a Tibbs guy dating back to Minnesota. Is he all of a sudden on the trading block? Like what happens Mikhail Bridges who was had for five first round picks and is looking for a big money extension. Do you pay him? Do you try to get three guys to create him in the aggregate next year? Does this mess everything up? But most importantly, where do the Knicks.

Alex Curry (7:23)

Head for a head coach?

Jason McIntyre (7:24)

And I do want to quickly defend Tibbs. Just give me a second. There was a 19 year stretch where the Knicks won one playoff series. Okay? Thibodeau has won four in the last three seasons. He has been successful. Look at this. Under Tom Thibodeau, five seasons, four playoff appearances and you see that winning record there? I know this is gonna be surprising. He has more wins with the Knicks than Pat Riley. It's just a mind blowing stat. Like Tom Thibodeau has been great. And we should also add, before Tibbs came on board, 18 seasons, 12 different head coaches. So they finally get their act together. And now we're back in the head coaching cycle for the Knicks. Who's going to be the next head coach? Well, you know, at the top of next hour, I'm going to reveal my five top names to replace Thibodeau. And then a really spicy name that I haven't really seen bandied about. It doesn't seem realistic, but I think there could be some potential there. What's going to happen next with the Knicks? Now I do want to pivot to a really explosive report in the Athletic about Kevin Durant and oh boy, folks, it don't look good for Kevin Durant. Let me start here by saying Kevin Durant is one of the 15 greatest players in the history of basketball. Full stop. We all agree the guy won an MVP, carried OKC to the finals, goes to Golden State, wins two finals MVPs. His resume speaks for itself. Kevin Durant has had an incredible career. It's inarguable. That being said, we know sports are. What have you done for me lately? And in some ways, you know, Kevin Durant is the guy who used to be an A list actor and get all the first look at scripts and now he's not getting any looks. I mean, Nick Cage comes to mind, you know, won an Academy Award for leaving Las Vegas. What has that guy done lately? Where's Nick cage the last 10 years? Can he open a movie? No shot. I mean, Will Smith, Will Smith has an unbelievable movie resume. I mean, I am Legend is like probably one of my top 10 movies of all time. I love Will Smith as an actor again. Like, is he getting any good looks anymore? When are they starting filming bad boys for? You know, like that's where Kevin Durant is in his career. I don't know if anybody wants him and I know what the trade deadline. There were teams involved and talking to the Suns, you had reports, I'm going to put those in air quotes. Reports that five teams wanted Kevin Durant. Well, the latest report in the Athletic is that the Phoenix Suns keep calling the Houston Rockets and the Suns keep lowering their asking price. Kevin Durant is 36 and we know he's still a bucket. Okay, that's, that's obvious. Kevin Durant, he can give you 25 points a night. That's that's great. Yeah, so can Mo Wagner and Jalen Green. I mean, These guys are 10 years younger and they can score almost what Kevin Durant does. And Kevin Durant is also kind of an ornery, prickly fellow who, oh, by the way, has not been great in the playoffs lately. Guys, the super team Suns. Yes. D Book Durant and Bradley Beal qualifies as a super team. That's three. All NBA players joining forces. They didn't make the playoffs this year. Okay, Kevin Durant has been swept in two of his last three trips to the playoffs. And yes, both were with super teams. Need I remind you the super team fiasco in Brooklyn, which is really deserves its own 30 for 30. It was a Hindenburg, okay? They got swept in his last playoff appearance by Jason Tatum in the Celtics. Like Kevin Durant in the postseason is not what he used to be. Again, you could love KD and he's a bucket, but he's turning 37 in September. Here's Rick Bucher earlier this week talking about the trickiness of how to move Kevin Durant.

Alex Curry (11:23)

The tricky part is, are you just getting him as a one year rental.

Jason McIntyre (11:27)

Or is he going to sign an extension?

Alex Curry (11:30)

Do you want to sign him to extension?

Jason McIntyre (11:31)

What does that extension look like?

Alex Curry (11:33)

There's a lot of tricky parts to that.

Jason McIntyre (11:35)

To your point, because of KD's age, I just don't know what the market is for Kevin Durant. So I started looking at the standings and teams that could be close and looking at Kevin Durant's $54 million contract next year. And yeah, okay, sure, he's going to give you 25, 27 points a game. He don't want to be a leader. So if you expect Kevin Durant to go to a young team and maybe be that leader, be that agent of change who's going to take them up the next step. And I'll toss one out there. We know Kevin Durant went to the University of Texas. He loves Austin, has a very big affinity for the city. Hey, the San Antonio spurs, could that work? Wembanyama de' Aaron Fox, Kevin Durant, maybe that's something. And then you look at what the spurs are and you're like, okay, well, we're not giving up Stefan Castle for to rent Kevin Durant for one year. Is Wembanyama and kd, is that doing anything in the West? And I look around the Houston Rockets, folks, they would rather chase Giannis than go after Kevin Durant. I mean, I don't, you know, a couple years ago Kevin Durant, you know, he grew up in the D.C. area, is a legend in Maryland growing up. And I. I floated the idea, why wouldn't he go to the Wizards, you know, and join forces with, like, John Wall and Bradley Beal? This is way back, and it's like, Wizards are one of the worst teams in the league right now. I mean, is that the kind of thing where we're going to see Kevin Durant end up on a bad team? Somebody in our morning meeting floated, what about the Atlanta Hawks? Kd, Trey Young, Jalen Johnson coming back from. I. I don't know. And again, I'm a huge Kevin Durant fan. Yes, we've had our online beefs a few times over the years, but I love him as a basketball player. I don't love the I just want to hoop, I don't want to be a leader thing. I mean, could we see him in Detroit to help the Pistons get over the top? But then you look at the Piston salaries, and it's like, okay, are we dumping any of our good young players? Hey, we need Ansar Thompson. You're not getting him. Not for Kevin Durant for one freaking year. And the more we talk about KD and you read stories about the Suns lowering their asking price, you start to wonder, like, she's. Are the Suns going to have to attach a draft pick, assuming they have any left to get off Kevin Durant? Are we in a world where Kevin Durant is close to ending his career like Patrick Ewing did with the Seattle Sonics? You guys remember Olajuwon wearing a Raptors jersey? I mean, Karl Malone sitting on the bench with the Lakers? Like, we're not. This is like a year or two away, maybe, for. For Kevin Durant, he's either going to have to have a big reality check and understand, dude, I'm not that guy anymore, or Kevin Durant's going to have to change his ways and say, you know what? I will be a leader for a young team because if I need 25 points, I'll go get Tyler. Hero. Sorry. I don't think Kevin Durant's defense is that superior to what you're getting at.54 million playing the position he does. And I'll leave you with this. Like, again, I don't want to be seen as taking jabs at Kevin Durant, but at this stage in the game, like, what do you do with him? Is there a world where nobody wants Kevin Durant? As shocking as that sounds, I think we're getting close to Kevin Durant. Not really getting the interest that he thought he would. So he goes super teams. And now he goes kind of out with a whimper. All right. Coming up next here on the Herd, an NFL star. Yes. Star. Is throwing around the R word. Retirement. We'll tell you who that is next here on the Herd.

Mitch Lawrence (15:11)

Be sure to catch live editions of the Herd, weekdays at noon Eastern, 9am Pacific on Fox Sports Radio. FS1 and the iHeartRadio Apple.

Alex Curry (15:20)

Summer is here, and you can now get almost anything you need for your sunny days delivered with Uber Eats. Now, what do we mean by almost? Well, you can't get a well groomed lawn delivered, but you can get chicken parm delivered. A day at the lake. That's a no. A Philly cheesesteak? That's a yes. A nice tan. Sorry. A box fan. Happily, yes. What about a day of sunshine? Not happening. How about a box of fine wines? Yeah, that's happening. Delivery's on its way. Okay, how about some clear skies? Nope. Well, how about some french fries? Yeah. So how about a freshly cut lawn? Can't help you there. But a barbecued prawn? Order it and it's on its way. Even throw in some paper towels. Clean up after the feast. So while you can't get fun in the sun delivered, don't worry because you can get pork buns delivered. Uber Eats can definitely get you that. Get almost, almost anything delivered with Uber Eats. Order now. Alcohol in select markets. Product availability may vary by region. See app for details. At the end of the season, there's only one team that can call themselves NBA champs. Only one player that can call themselves the number one pick in the NFL draft. Well, there's only one electric SUV worthy of the title. The ultimate. The all electric BMW ix. What I love about the IX is that it delivers legendary BMW performance. While its sleek design exudes innovative style from the inside out, not to mention how much space and utility it provides. Over 75 cubic feet of cargo space, the IX is completely changing the game with an all electric suv. The greatest legends of sports never compromise any part of the game. So why would you settle for anything less from your suv? After all, there's only one ultimate the BMW ix. Everything you love about the ultimate driving machine. Electrified. Guys, let's have a serious chat. And then it's on you to take action. Over 30% of guys have gynecomastia. This is an actual medical condition. And because of your genetics, that extra fat in your lower chest only gets worse as you age. Here's the good news, sono Bello is the expert at removing the fat in one visit. You can't bench press and carb count your way out of this one. You need to talk to the pioneers of this simple procedure and get that sculpted chest in a single visit. Schedule your free consultation. Save even more with their summer savings event and with the CareCredit credit card, you'll enjoy flexible financing and convenient monthly payments so you can look trim for summer and pay over time. Visit sonobello.com Colin that's Sono B E L-L-O.com Colin Subject to credit approval. See website for details. American Public University is the number one provider of education to our military and veterans in this country. They offer something truly unique. Special rates and grants for the entire family, making education affordable not just for those who serve, but also for their loved ones. If you have a military or veteran family member and are looking for affordable, high quality education, Apu is the place for you. Visit Apu Apus Edu Military to learn more. That's Apu Apus Edu Military back here.

Jason McIntyre (18:50)

On the Herd, Jason McIntyre in for Colin Cowherd. I don't know about you guys, but I know a lot of dudes who do this. You know, you're on a vacation and you instantly think like, oh man, I can't wait to retire. And you start bandying about retirement plans where you go. Obviously you got to be in a nice area, ideally near an airport, because you want to travel a lot in retirement. But everybody loves thinking about retirement, but not quite like NFL players do. Saquon Barkley, who is just coming off like one of the greatest running back seasons we've seen. 2,000 yards goes to the super bowl, wins the Super Bowl. He went on a podcast this week with Chris Long, the Green Light Podcast, and out of nowhere, Saquon Barkley starts talking about retirement. Here we go. I'll probably one of those guys that it'll be out of nowhere. Like, I'll probably just wake up one day, whether it's next year or two years or four years, like, and it'd be like, yes, it's over. One of my favorite plays of all time is probably my favorite play all time is Barry Sanders. So probably similar to that. Maybe one day, like it'll be out of nowhere. I'll probably ballin and just be like, yeah, call it quits now. I will say that sounds pretty amazing. Obviously Saquon Barkley's made generational wealth in, you know, just a small run here in the NFL over the last decade and We've seen other big time names retire early. Barry Sanders, obviously, as Saquon alluded to, Aaron Donald, Calvin Johnson, and you never know how, like, a franchise is going to shake out. So I'm sure some Eagles fans heard this and were like, oh, we might lose Saquon. Oh, no, it's going to be okay, guys. Take a deep breath. I did not realize this. I had to look it up. So the Philadelphia Eagles from 2018 to 2024 have the fifth most wins in the NFL in that span. The only teams with more wins, the Chiefs, obviously, the Baltimore Ravens, who, let me see here. No, they haven't made a Super bowl in that duration. The Buffalo Bills, have they made a Super. No, they have not. The Green Bay packers and the Philadelphia Eagles. Eagles at five guys. In the last eight years, the Eagles have made the super bowl three times. Two with Jalen Hurts and woman. Nick Foles. Nick Foles obviously filling in for the injured Carson Wentz. I guess what I'm getting at here is I get it. Saquon will be a huge loss. Like, you know, you saw Christian McCaffrey go down for the Niners last season. They were kind of lost because McCaffrey does so much. Saquon does a lot of that with the Eagles and did it this past year, as good as you can imagine. But if he leaves, are, are the Eagles in, like, rough shape? I, I, I like to say running backs matter. We've gone back and forth on the show over the last couple years. Like, running backs are back, they matter. They're almost undervalued. I mean, there's tight ends in the league, and I'm not talking the elite guys. I'm not second tier guys who were making Saquon Barkley money last year. Like, you know, something's up with that. Tight ends are getting, like, maybe eight targets a game, maybe 10. Saquon starts with the ball 20 to 30 times a game, and the idea of losing him probably scares some Eagles fans. But I'm going to remind you, they got to the super bowl with Nick Foles. You can't even name the running backs that they got to the super bowl with the first time with Jalen Hurts. And so now they get Barkley. And yes, they win the super bowl, obviously, very, very nice. But let's not act like it's the end of the world. If Saquon Barkley wants to, I don't know, enjoy a media career down the road, I'm sure he'll start a podcast. Everybody does. But I think the Eagles are going to be just fine. And I got to give Howie Roseman some credit. I will say one of the bigger whiffs I've had in the last 15 years was Chip Kelly ascends to the Eagles. And right out of the gate, they're really good. Remember Chip Kelly, Mike Vick? I still remember that first game together. Mike Vick throwing a unbelievable bomb. I was like, ah, this is going to be the greatest show. And then Chip Kelly had like that war in the front office with Howie Roseman, and Chip Kelly for a minute won that battle. And I was like, team Chip Kelly. He's a football guy. The guy was a genius at Oregon. I'm all in on Chip Kelly. It petered out pretty quickly. Howie Roseman gets back in good graces. And whatever he learned during that time of being jettisoned by Chip Kelly, Howie Roseman figured things out. I mean, this guy has clearly become one of the sharpest minds in building a roster in the league. And I looked at the Eagles roster. You could go pro football focus wherever you want. They got young studs everywhere. Cornerback, defensive line, linebacker. This team is stacked. Remember when they lost their center, there was some concern. Oh, you know, Kelsey, one of the best centers in the league didn't miss a beat. They just seem to find guys everywhere. And a lot of that goes to Howie Rosen. So I know Saquon would be a huge loss to the Eagles and obviously the NFL. He's fun and exciting. He's on the COVID of Madden. Had this seminal move in the NFL last year, jumping backwards over a dude. But I think the Eagles are going to be just fine because they're built for the long haul. Let's go to Alex Curry with the news. No, no, no. Heard on the news.

Mitch Lawrence (24:19)

This is the Herd line news.

Unknown (24:21)

J. Mac. I also don't have the problem with guys going out at the top of their career.

Jason McIntyre (24:25)

Hell, right?

Unknown (24:26)

That's like. That's. That's legendary.

Jason McIntyre (24:28)

Yeah.

Unknown (24:29)

Okay. Well, it's officially the summer of soccer on Fox. And U.S. men's National Team head coach Mauricio Pochettino was on the podcast recently and made some bold claims about American soccer star Christian Pulisic, comparing him to one of the best soccer players of all time. Take a listen.

Jason McIntyre (24:45)

I think Christian in the last year, I think was showing a great quality and he's performing, you know, in Europe and also is performing here in the national team. He's a very talented player that can help us to win. Of course, I don't want to be disrespectful with Messi or with Pulisio? With Messi. But I think in this country, policy should be our Messi, because it's a iconic player and the kid on the street. For sure.

Alex Curry (25:14)

If you ask one soccer player in.

Jason McIntyre (25:17)

This country, it's Pulisic.

Unknown (25:21)

So, yeah, obviously, this is what the US has been struggling with for decades. We don't have a superstar, and we're not winning at the international level at these international tournaments. And if you want to be a popular team across any sport in the United States, you can win. That's what people follow. They follow winners, and I think that's. That's what needs to happen. It sounds like they got the right guy. I mean, Pochettino has coached, like, Mbappe Messi, Neymar, Harry Kane, Cole Palmer. Like, he's coached some of the biggest names. They just hired him last September and he's. I mean, he's done a lot of great things for other teams. He led Tottenham the Champions League final in 2019, PSG to League of One title in 2021. So, like, he has a track record of taking teams and taking them to the top. But the one thing the United States, the U.S. men's National Team, has lacked is the. The results and the talent to compete with the rest of the world, and that's what you need.

Jason McIntyre (26:23)

I'm always reluctant when guys are going to invoke, like, the greatest of all time can. I mean. But then again, it gets pickup when he says Messi. If he says, oh, he could be our Harry Kane. Yeah, I don't. We're probably not doing the segment. You know, I'm a soccer guy.

Unknown (26:38)

I know.

Jason McIntyre (26:39)

I made sure we got Alexi Lawless on the show, so he's coming in later. I'm not sure when this podcast was recorded because there's a lot of ballistic stuff right now that is not good. Like, he's not going to be playing with us.

Unknown (26:51)

But there's also, like, a lot of their key players aren't playing with the team this summer. So it's not just Pulisic. It's. There's a handful of guys and I think it was like, well, if they're all not going to be there, like, why. Yeah, but why do I need to be there?

Jason McIntyre (27:03)

They're not the face of the team.

Unknown (27:04)

They're not the leader face of the.

Jason McIntyre (27:06)

I don't. Lawless is probably going to go in.

Unknown (27:08)

Oh, yeah, we're going to dive into that in a bit.

Jason McIntyre (27:10)

I'm looking forward to that, but I Want to give this coach a chance. So I'm not going to make a big deal out of this. No, let's just win some freaking games.

Unknown (27:17)

We need to see results. We need to see results at the international level at these big tournaments. Yeah, that's what we need to see. And then, and then let's have a conversation about it. Like our U.S. women's National Team, back to back World cup champs, Olympic gold medal champions. Like, that's what you need to do if you want to gain some traction and a fan base and a face, a face of the country and superstar, like a Messi. That's what you need to do. All right, let's transition to the NBA. Adam Silver was on Breakfast ball this morning and he addressed the conversation around small markets like OKC in Indiana making the NBA Finals. Here he is earlier today.

Alex Curry (27:55)

It's been intentional from our standpoint to create a system, a collective bargaining agreement that allows more teams to compete. And just by way of background, you.

Mitch Lawrence (28:04)

Know, we're going to have to go.

Alex Curry (28:05)

Through a process of getting to the point where people are accustomed to tuning into the finals because the two teams that deserve to be there and it's the best basketball.

Mitch Lawrence (28:15)

Similar to.

Alex Curry (28:16)

Again with the Super Bowl. If I asked somebody, they were going to watch the super bowl, they wouldn't say who's playing. It's a national holiday, and now that's nirvana.

Unknown (28:24)

But the super bowl, every team has superstar players. These small market teams in the NBA don't necessarily have that star power. That's going to drive ratings and it's going to drive people to plan their days and plan their events around these NBA Finals. Like, I hang out with a lot of casual sports fans, 50, 50 sports fans. And I've named off like a couple of the stars in the finals. And I saw blank faces. I'm like, okay, this is going to be a situation where if it's on, if you're somewhere and it's on the background, you're going to turn around like, oh, cool, cool. NBA Finals. Not plan your whole day around. Okay, let's get together. Let's get here. Let's go here and make sure we're sat for this game.

Jason McIntyre (29:05)

So you've seen the movie Karate Kid, Obviously. Legendary movie, definitely top 10. So after. Sorry for the spoiler alert on a movie from the 1980s, but Daniel uses the crane kick, takes down Johnny.

Unknown (29:20)

Yeah.

Jason McIntyre (29:20)

And then they Show Pat Morita, aka Mr. Miyagi, just kind of nodding his approval. You know, that's like a meme.

Unknown (29:27)

Yes.

Jason McIntyre (29:28)

When I hear Adam Silver saying it's been intentional.

Unknown (29:33)

Huh?

Jason McIntyre (29:34)

That's what I said. That's what all these people yelled at before. Oh, that's not. Yeah, I'm sure the league wants Indiana and okc. Adam Silver is saying, yes, that's what we want. That's why we have new rules. I was friggin right. I'm sorry I had to do that. Sorry.

Unknown (29:48)

No, you were. No, these people got angry because you think it's what you want and then when they see the ratings and the results, you're going to have to kind of rethink that.

Jason McIntyre (29:57)

So we, I, I've been workshopping something. Major League Baseball.

Unknown (30:02)

Yeah.

Jason McIntyre (30:03)

Has not had a back to back champion in like 24, 20, something like that. So a long over two decades.

Unknown (30:10)

Yeah. Back to the Yankees.

Jason McIntyre (30:12)

Yeah.

Unknown (30:12)

The Yankees were the last early 2000s. Yeah.

Jason McIntyre (30:15)

Yet somehow in the last few years they seem to be going back toward super teams.

Unknown (30:20)

Yeah. Yankees and Dodgers, World Series.

Jason McIntyre (30:23)

They're going towards super teams. Yes. The NBA is saying we don't want super teams.

Unknown (30:29)

Alex, it's going to hurt you in the long run.

Jason McIntyre (30:32)

I'm just telling you. I said it yesterday. Yeah. Give me super teams or give me death. And I'm just telling you right now we need stacked teams in the NBA with stars merging to get the polarization going. I know the die hard fans are going to be like, oh Jason, this is going to be great basketball and nobody cares.

Unknown (30:53)

You have to remember sports are entertainment. People want to be entertained. And the way you draw in the casual fan is big names and superstars. You see this in movies and TV shows. It's the same thing with sports. When you have a recognizable name and a big face of the league or face of the franchise or a super team, it's going to drop people to watch the game, to create their events around the game. Like you're going to get the ratings, you're going to get the viewership, you're going to get the jersey sales right there.

Jason McIntyre (31:27)

Oh, okay. But I just thought of this. So the Pacers are huge under them, right? Yes. Minus. I think Indiana is. Sorry, OKC is like minus 700, 800. You know, it would be great for the NBA. Yeah. If the Indiana Pacers won the series. Yeah. And then OKC said we got to go get Kevin degree bring him back. That's the kind of thing that would be freaking amazing. It would be because the fans hated Katie for leaving and now they need him. Well, if they lose to the faces, they need something. You can't Run it back. Losing to Indiana.

Unknown (32:00)

Yeah.

Jason McIntyre (32:00)

As heavy favorites. Okay, I digress.

Unknown (32:05)

Hot take.

Jason McIntyre (32:06)

Very.

Unknown (32:06)

It's a hot take. Plus, he needs a home.

Jason McIntyre (32:08)

He does.

Unknown (32:09)

Market price wants going down. Okay, last story here. Austin Angie has hired a new president of basketball operations for the Utah Jazz, and he comes from Boston, where he started his NBA career. In both cases, Austin's dad, Danny, played a prominent role on the team that hired Austin. So I don't. I don't care what you say. This is an EPO baby situation. He was hired by his dad in Boston, now in Utah. But again, like, it's not necessarily a bad thing. Right. He grew up around the game. He worked his way up, but he got his foot in the door and got an upper hand because of his dad. His dad played a prominent role in both of his hirings. Similar situation when everyone was getting mad at LeBron James for Bronny getting drafted. So I want to see that same kind of energy and that same kind of fire in this situation, because it is like you. You got into a certain situation because your father was also involved in that situation. And again, I don't think Nep, like Nepo baby is necessarily a bad thing in all situations because you grew up in that setting. You are probably more prepared and suited for a lot of these situations like this, and you're still putting in the work and you're still working your way up. But, yes, this is a Nepal baby situation on the executive side.

Jason McIntyre (33:36)

So. By the way, did you read that article in the New York magazine, like, I don't know, three years ago about Nepo babies? It's like a lot of them have actually done good things after, given the opportunity.

Unknown (33:48)

Yes.

Jason McIntyre (33:48)

Shocker how that works.

Unknown (33:49)

It's just. You just get a foot in the door, and then you have to do the work.

Jason McIntyre (33:52)

Yeah.

Unknown (33:52)

You have to do the work.

Jason McIntyre (33:53)

So, like, Bronnie had his chance.

Unknown (33:55)

Yeah.

Jason McIntyre (33:56)

Up and down, whatever.

Unknown (33:57)

I don't think it's a bad thing.

Jason McIntyre (33:58)

Yeah.

Unknown (33:58)

You now up in the situation situation.

Jason McIntyre (34:00)

Your article Monday was he's gonna be maybe a rotational.

Unknown (34:03)

Yeah.

Jason McIntyre (34:03)

Okay. Then you've got a chance.

Unknown (34:05)

Good for him. Yeah.

Jason McIntyre (34:06)

Now, I will say this about age. If he was so great in Boston. Yeah. For I think I saw 16, 17 years. Yeah. Why did nobody else make a run at him? And then his dad hires him in Utah. Yeah. Again, I'm not saying he's not worthy.

Unknown (34:23)

No.

Jason McIntyre (34:23)

And Danny Ainge is a legend. Went to byu, like, multiple sport athletes. Like, really one of the greatest athletes in the state's history. He's going to be able to call his shots. So I'm with you. Yeah. If you want to bash Nepo babies, you got to go after dating.

Unknown (34:37)

Yeah.

Jason McIntyre (34:37)

But Alex, I'm gonna go ahead and guess. Yeah. That nobody gives a flying. You know what. Yeah. About the Utah Jazz, who stink every year. And, you know, if we're being real here, the Jazz were the worst team in the league. They tanked. They wanted the number one pick. They ended up at five. Like, you can't tank again. Yeah, well, like, what's the point? So you're gonna have to actually do some work. I'm wishing best again, not bashing it.

Unknown (35:03)

He was out. What? Championship team. Like, he's been around.

Jason McIntyre (35:06)

He was with the Celtics. Yeah.

Unknown (35:07)

So it's. He's been in the game for a while. He knows what he's doing. So, you know, prove yourself.

Jason McIntyre (35:14)

Can he make a big move and say, hey, I have a great relationship with Jaylen Brown. Let's trade for Jaylen Brown. I, I, I, I'm just spitballing. I'm not, Obviously they're not going to get. I'm not going to say anything could happen this summer, but it just feels like maybe something is afoot. Utah's gonna make a big splash.

Unknown (35:31)

Yeah, it should.

Jason McIntyre (35:32)

Yeah. Alex Curry with the news.

Mitch Lawrence (35:35)

Well, that's the news.

Jason McIntyre (35:36)

And thanks for stopping by.

Mitch Lawrence (35:38)

The Herd lie news.

Jason McIntyre (35:40)

Wow. How about this tease? Who was behind the ouster of Tom Thibodeau in New York? We head to the Big Apple to find out next. What happened to Tom Thibodeau?

Mitch Lawrence (35:49)

Be sure to catch live editions of the Herd, weekdays at noon Eastern, 9am Pacific.

Alex Curry (35:54)

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Jason McIntyre (40:29)

Welcome back into the herd. We got to go to New York now to figure out who put the knife in place. Tom Thibodeau's back. Let's go to Mitch Lawrence, who's covered The Knicks Forever, NBA writer, host, SiriusXM. He's got an amazing background there, as you can see. All right, Mitch, so we were talking during the commercial break, and you described the Garden as a pit full of vipers. Can you kind of break down what happened? Because Thibodeau just led the Knicks to their best season this century and then he gets axed.

Mitch Lawrence (41:00)

Yeah. I mean, he had the best playoff run since 1999, and the fans were partying like it was 1999. And all of a sudden he's the guy who's the scapegoat. It is. Listen, the Garden front office is full of vipers. These are guys who have their own agendas, whatever they are. They leak stuff to the media. They want certain people in, certain people out, and they had it in for Tom. It goes beyond basketball, Jason. It goes beyond he didn't develop a bench. It goes beyond guys didn't know their roles. It goes beyond, you know, you didn't have an offensive imagination. This goes beyond all that stuff. And now we're going to see who Jim Dolan, the owner, you know, who gets his ear and who he talks to and who they settle on as the next coach and say, this is what I when I was, you know, based in New York and at the New York Daily News doing 21 years of NBA columns, this was familiar Ground for anybody who dealt with the Knicks and dealt with Jim Dolan, it is a. It's a. It's a treacherous place. If you're a coach because you're the guy who's the face of the franchise, they don't let Leon Rose talk. Dolan doesn't talk. So Tom Thibodeau was the guy who had a talk. They don't help. Nobody's held accountable in terms of Leon Rose or Jim Dolan. And, you know, stuff like this happens. It's a very. It's run differently than any other organization, and it's been unsuccessful in a lot of ways. You know, it's the anti spurs, anti Miami, whatever you want to call it. They do things their own way. And for the most part, before time came on board, they were irrelevant and a dumpster fire. And they, I think Knick fans probably fear now, that's the road they're headed back on.

Jason McIntyre (42:40)

Yeah, especially if you don't make the right hire. So who would you say has the biggest pull or the most poll in making the hire? Is it Dolan, who's kind of been out of the mix? You know, he was with the Sphere in Vegas building that? Is it Leon Rose? Do the players have a say here? We know it's a players league. I mean, Jalen Brunson couldn't save Tibbs, but how do you break that down?

Mitch Lawrence (43:05)

Well, Jalen. Jalen Brunson liked him, so he didn't listen to him. So you also have to wonder what that means for him, especially if they get rid of his father who's on the bench. I think that has to be a concern for Nick fans, too. Listen, I think it's going to probably be a few people. It'll be Leon Rose. They'll run it by Dolan. Dolan will, you know, do his checks. It's hard to tell. It's. It's because nobody really talks publicly. Like, what they should do is have Leon Rose out there today to say, this is why we fired Tom Thibodeau. I'm going to take questions and answers. And by the way, this is what we're looking for in our next coach to give people an idea of what they're going for. But the Knicks don't do things like that like other teams. They don't make people, you know, like Pat Riley goes public after his team gets wiped off the court against Cleveland and he's own. He owns up to stuff. The Knicks don't do that. So you never know their game plan. So it's Very hard to say exactly how it's all going to run or who's going to have the power, who's going to, you know, who wants who out there.

Jason McIntyre (44:09)

It's.

Mitch Lawrence (44:09)

Oh, you're always dealing with a lot of mystery at the guard.

Jason McIntyre (44:12)

Yeah. And it feels like, I don't know if you use the word accountability, but like Leon Rose, like, shouldn't you step up and meet the media and talk about this? I mean, that seems like the way we should do it.

Mitch Lawrence (44:23)

No, everybody does it that way in the league. I mentioned Pat Riley, Brad Stevens. When thing went south for Boston for this year, they're sending champs. He met with the media and he had Daryl Morey and Nick Nurse meet in Philadelphia. Nobody had a worse year, expectation wise than probably Philadelphia. Jim Dolan doesn't want his people like Leon rose and other GMs before him to speak publicly. He kind of has an ant. You know, you hear teams having a, you know, a media policy. He has an anti media policy. That's for as long as I, you know, for the longest time. And a lot of it dates back to that sexual harassment case. And you know, post that in 2007, that's already 18 years where Isaiah Thomas and the Knicks gotten in big Trouble, cost Dolan $12 million. After that, the league basically held sway. David Stern over the Knicks. That's when they hired Donnie Walsh. Listen to the NBA then. But since then, he, he does things his way. He's not going to have Leon Rose at all. Talk to the media. The next coach will be the face of the franchise, just like Tom was Tom Thibodeau, which adds to, you know, the pressure of the job in New York. Now you're the coach. Not only you have to coach the team, prepare the team, now you're also the face and the voice of the franchise. Puts a lot of pressure on that next coach. Besides the fact that obviously the next coach has a very high bar. You got to come in, you got to win 11 playoff games because Tom just wanting a 10.

Jason McIntyre (45:52)

I'm going to throw some names at you. You tell me your thoughts. But first, the Phoenix Suns have just announced that they have hired Cavs assistant Jordan Otto. You know, whoever that is. I don't know that that is a move based on what the Knicks are doing, but there is a guy, Johnny Bryant, whose name is bandied about as a potential Knicks candidate. I don't think you go from Tom Thibodeau to Johnny Bryant, do you?

Mitch Lawrence (46:18)

Well, I don't think so either, but that doesn't mean it can't happen. And he seems to be the front runner right now. He was in New York. Now you mentioned Jordan not getting the Phoenix job. Johnny Bryant was also up for that job. So now he works in Cleveland for Kenny Atkinson. But he had been in New York. He's familiar with the front office. People are familiar with him. He's got, he's got people who hope he gets a job. He has people who, from my understanding, who hope he doesn't get the job. Listen, if you think you're a championship contender, and I don't think the Knicks are, I think they're a decent cut below with that roster with their two best players being one way, offensive players and, and defensive liabilities. I'm talking about Jalen Brunson and Karl Anthony Towns. You've built around those, those guys. I don't think you can bring in a guy like a Johnny Bryant who's never been a head coach, certainly, you know, and, and all of a sudden entrust him to actually exceed what Tom Thibodeau did. I think that's an impossible spot for him. And I think that's a thing that I think Nick fans have to be worried about.

Jason McIntyre (47:23)

Yeah, Michael Malone was fired by Denver maybe two months ago. Yeah, he feels like Thibodeau 2.0, doesn't like to play young guys, rides his starters. Like that was an issue for Tibbs. I would cross Michael Malone off the list.

Mitch Lawrence (47:37)

Your thoughts just based on that? Well, I will say this. If you go back to his Denver team and he had Jokic, I know SGA is the mvp, but this is like back in the Michael Jordan era when Karl Malone won the mvp. We all knew that Michael Jordan was the best player in the world. Just like now we know that Jokic is the best player in the world. He only, he only had a bench of basically three guys. Jeff Green, Bruce Brown and Christian Brown. That's it. They won the title that way. So if you're hung up on this bench nonsense that he won't play your bench. I mean, think of it this way. The Tom Thibodeau, is he really the first coach in the history of the NBA and maybe sports to get fired because he didn't. He didn't develop a bench.

Jason McIntyre (48:22)

It's absurd.

Mitch Lawrence (48:22)

It's absurd. Look who's on his bench. Mike Malone had a great bench with those three players versus what Tom Thibodeau had to work with. But anyway, that's a whole different story. I would hire Mike Malone. He knows New York. His father coached In New York. I knew Brendan Malone when he was an assistant in Syracuse, when I started out in the newspaper racket in 1980. I go back that far when Michael Malone was running around in basically diapers. Yeah, I think he's a hell of a coach now. Ten years in Denver, long time, won a title, maybe got a little full of himself. That's what people say.

Jason McIntyre (48:56)

I don't know.

Mitch Lawrence (48:56)

I haven't talked to Mike since then, but he's a very good coach. And let's not forget, where was he before he landed in Denver and did a great job? Their first title ever, he was in Sacramento. He did a great job there. For a franchise that continues to, you know, I mean, that's just like total dysfunction out there. Except for a few moments, right? Except for a very few moments. And Mike Malone did a good job there. I think Nick fans would actually say, you know, what if we get Mike Malone, yeah, we can go places and not worry about what he did with his bench in Denver. Just look at his accomplishments. The only thing, though, Jason, is, is he going to come in? You're going to say, well, he had, you know, let's see how he does.

Jason McIntyre (49:36)

Without jokers, without the.

Mitch Lawrence (49:37)

That's fair.

Jason McIntyre (49:37)

Yeah, that's all right. Let me throw one more. He's currently coaching the Dallas Mavericks and his name is Jason Kidd. He played with the Knicks. Obviously he was not brought in to talk about the Luca deal. He looked shell shocked at the press conference afterward. Are the Knicks an upgrade from the maps? I don't know, Jason. Kid's an interesting name.

Mitch Lawrence (50:03)

It is an interesting name. You know, if you look at the Knicks in terms of where they are in the east, you know, Indiana is there now. Boston's not going to have Tatum for probably a year, but they're going to be back. You've got Detroit on the rise or Orlando. We'll see what happens in Milwaukee with Giannis. The Knicks, you know, they're gonna. They're probably gonna take a step back with a new coach. I don't know how. Jason, first of all, he has a job in Dallas. Like you raised the point with his roster. He's not gonna have Kyrie Irving for a while. He'll have Anthony Davis. We know that Anthony Davis cannot stay on the court at points, but he's gonna get Cooper flag, right? It sounds like they're gonna keep that draft pick and they'll pick Cooper Flag. So it would have to be some sort of a trade to get Jason Kidd. They're going to have to get some sort of compensation and who knows what Nico Harrison and Patrick Dumont, the the owner are thinking these days about Jason Kidd? I have no idea. All I know is that the Maverick fans are still irate that Luka Doncic is a Laker that has not gone away.

Jason McIntyre (51:05)

Yeah. Mitch Lawrence, NBA writer. Serious, serious XM host. Great stuff. I like the blue Knicks shirt, turtleneck. Nice job, Mitch. Thanks a lot, man.

Mitch Lawrence (51:17)

Thanks for having me. Jason. Enjoyed it.

Jason McIntyre (51:18)

Yeah, interesting stuff. He's bullish on Michael Malone. Listen, I was pushing Michael Malone's name a month ago when the Knicks were struggling against Detroit and I was like, I don't know if they, if they can't get by Detroit, just get Tibbs out of here bringing Malone. Then they beat the Celtics and I'm like, just keep Tibs. So coming up next, I will give you my top five Knicks coaches wish list and a special bonus that's next year on the herd.

Alex Curry (51:47)

Balancing work, family and education isn't easy, but American Public University makes it possible with online courses, monthly start dates, and flexible schedules. APU is designed for busy professionals who need education that fits their lives. And Affordability matters, too. APU offers the opportunity grant, giving students 10% off undergraduate and master's level tuition, helping you reach your goals without breaking the bank. Plus, they provide career services and 247 mental health support at no extra cost. Visit Apu Apus Edu to learn more. That's Apu Apus Summer is here and you can now get almost anything you need for your sunny days delivered with Uber Eats. Now, what do we mean by almost? Well, you can't get a well groomed lawn delivered, but you can get chicken parm delivered. A nice tan? Sorry. A box fan? Happily, yes. A day of sunshine? No? A box of fine wines? Yes. Uber Eats can definitely get you that. Get almost almost anything delivered with Uber Eats. Order now. Alcohol in select markets. Product availability may vary by region. See app for details. You've heard me talk about Green River Whiskey, the official Whiskey of the Herd podcast. I love a good metaphor, so here's one for you. Green River Whiskey is like a big playoff win by your favorite team, always sure to raise your spirits. So pair the thrills of this playoff season with Green River Whiskey. To find Green river near you, head on over to greenriverwhisky.com here's the green River Whiskey. Raise your spirits. A product of Green River Distilling Co. Owensboro, Kentucky. Alcohol by volume varies by product. Greenriverwhiskey.com, please drink responsibly. BMW didn't just design an electric SUV. Every detail of the BMW IX was crafted with passion and precision. With a BMW IX, you'll experience unmatched power, utility, spaciousness, versatility. My favorite feature cloud based navigation, monitors charge levels, locates nearby charging stations so I can drive electric with the ultimate ease. BMW lets performance do the talking and the scouting report is in. Experience the all electric BMW IX and witness dedication in every detail.

Jason McIntyre (54:18)

This is an iHeart podcast.