Hour 3 - Jeff Pearlman joins The Herd

Summary

Podcast Summary: The Herd with Colin Cowherd – Hour 3 featuring Jeff Pearlman
Release Date: May 21, 2025
Duration: Approximately 44 minutes

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Introduction to Jeff Pearlman

In this episode of The Herd with Colin Cowherd, host Colin Cowherd welcomes Jeff Pearlman, a New York Times best-selling author known for his in-depth sports biographies and digital series, Press Box Chronicles on YouTube. Jeff brings a wealth of knowledge on iconic sports figures, particularly Brett Favre and Aaron Rodgers, setting the stage for a compelling discussion.

Notable Quote:
Colin Cowherd (02:44): "He's a best-selling author multiple times. Jeff Pearlman, New York Times best-selling author."

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Brett Favre and Aaron Rodgers: A Tale of Two Quarterbacks

The conversation delves into the contrasting personalities and career trajectories of Brett Favre and Aaron Rodgers, two legendary quarterbacks from the Green Bay Packers. Colin shares his insights from Jeff's book, Gunslinger, the Remarkable, Improbable Iconic Life of Brett Favre, highlighting Favre's tumultuous relationship with Aaron Rodgers and how it shaped his legacy.

Jeff Pearlman (04:13): "He got so used to being a certain way, deified, glorified. All of a sudden he's in a new situation, and he doesn't have the maturity or the personal development to handle it."

Colin theorizes that the unique environment of Green Bay, being a small market team with no personal owner influence, contributes to these quarterbacks developing larger-than-life personas. Jeff concurs, emphasizing how the intense spotlight in a small market like Green Bay can lead to unsustainable behaviors once they transition to larger markets.

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The Lakers Dynasty and the Buss Family's Management

Transitioning from football to basketball, Colin and Jeff discuss the legacy of the Los Angeles Lakers' 1980s dynasty, particularly focusing on the relationship dynamics between players like Shaquille O'Neal and Kobe Bryant under the ownership of the Buss family. They draw parallels to current situations with Luka Dončić, questioning how the Buss family manages player frustrations and health while balancing team performance and brand integrity.

Jeff Pearlman (08:11): "He does produce, he does sell jerseys. He is pretty charismatic. I think it's going to get really tricky once Lucas shows up at training camp 30 pounds overweight."

Colin expresses concern over Luka's commitment and physical condition, suggesting that the Buss family's handling of such issues is critical to maintaining the Lakers' competitive edge and public image.

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Jeff's New York Roots and the Electric Atmosphere of Madison Square Garden

Jeff shares his personal background, growing up in Mayhopac, New York, and his deep appreciation for the unique energy of Madison Square Garden (MSG). The discussion highlights how Madison Square Garden serves as a microcosm of New York City's relentless spirit, providing an unparalleled venue for sports events that are both raw and electrifying.

Jeff Pearlman (10:21): "Madison Square Garden has always maintained its electricity. The air of excitement, the buzz."

Colin echoes this sentiment, emphasizing MSG's role in embodying the true essence of New York sports culture and its impact on both players and fans.

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GOAT Debate: LeBron James vs. Michael Jordan

One of the episode's highlights is the in-depth debate on who holds the title of the Greatest of All Time (GOAT) in basketball — LeBron James or Michael Jordan. Jeff argues that Michael Jordan's success was heavily reliant on key teammates like Scottie Pippen and strategic management by Jerry Krause, suggesting that without these elements, Jordan's achievements might not stand as firmly.

Jeff Pearlman (26:35): "LeBron has won titles on multiple teams because of mobility, but Michael also had the advantage. He played in a city where people like to play Chicago."

Colin counters by acknowledging both players' strengths but ultimately supports LeBron's ability to elevate his teams consistently across different franchises. They discuss the differing impacts of mobility, team composition, and individual skills, offering a balanced perspective on the complexities of defining the GOAT in basketball.

Notable Quote:
Jeff Pearlman (26:35): "LeBron has won titles on multiple teams because of mobility, but Michael also had the advantage. He played in a city where people like to play Chicago."

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NFL Rule Changes: The Tush Push Controversy

Shifting back to football, Colin and Jeff engage in a heated discussion about the NFL's recent decision to maintain the "tush push" play despite recommendations from the Rules and Health and Safety Committees to ban it. The play, favored by teams like the Philadelphia Eagles, has been pivotal in their offensive strategy, especially with Jalen Hurts at quarterback.

Colin Cowherd (36:28): "The biggest offensive line we've seen in football since the Cowboys of the '90s."

Jeff supports the continuation of the play, arguing that its effectiveness relies on specific player attributes and team dynamics, such as Jalen Hurts' physicality and the Eagles' robust offensive line.

Notable Quote:
Colin Cowherd (36:28): "For everybody else, for two reasons. Jalen Hurts, squats 600 pounds. I don't think any other quarterback does."

The discussion also touches upon the potential long-term implications of this rule decision, with Jeff speculating that it might be the last year the play remains legal as the league continues to evolve its gameplay strategies.

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Closing Thoughts and Final Insights

As the episode winds down, Colin and Jeff reflect on the broader implications of their discussions, reiterating the influence of leadership, team dynamics, and individual accountability in shaping sports legacies. Jeff hints at his upcoming book on Tupac Shakur, sharing a surprising revelation about Tupac's final resting place, which adds an intriguing twist to his repertoire of sports and cultural biographies.

Notable Quote:
Jeff Pearlman (17:45): "Tupac's mother, Fenny Shakur, actually saved it. And he's buried beneath a grave site in a field in the most out of nowhere place you would never think."

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Conclusion

This episode of The Herd offers a deep dive into the personalities and management styles that define some of the most iconic figures in sports. Jeff Pearlman's expertise provides listeners with nuanced perspectives on how environment, leadership, and individual traits interplay to shape the careers and legacies of sports legends. Whether discussing the intricate dynamics of Green Bay's quarterbacks, the Lakers' storied past, or the ongoing GOAT debate, Colin and Jeff deliver a thought-provoking and engaging analysis that resonates with both casual fans and sports aficionados alike.

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Note: Advertisements, promotions, and non-content sections were omitted from this summary to focus solely on the meaningful discussions and insights shared during the podcast episode.

Transcript

[Colin Cowherd]

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[Jeff Pearlman]

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[Colin Cowherd]

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[Unknown]

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[Colin Cowherd]

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[Jeff Pearlman]

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[Jeff Pearlman]

Thanks for listening to the Herd podcast. Be sure to catch us live every weekday on Fox Sports Radio and noon to 3 Eastern, 9am to noon Pacific. Find your local station for the [e-mail] or stream us live every day on the iHeartRadio app by searching Fox Sports Radio or FSR.

[Unknown]

You're listening to Fox Sports Radio.

[Colin Cowherd]

All right, he's a best selling author multiple times. Jeff Perlman, New York Times best selling offer. He's got the digital series Press box chronicles on YouTube. I thought he was interesting today because there's a, there's an untold documentary on Netflix on Brett Favre and he wrote a book years ago, Gunslinger, the Remarkable, Improbable Iconic Life of Brett Favre. Which, which I thought I had said this at the time. When I read it, I thought Brett Favre wasn't very nice to Aaron Rodgers, wasn't very helpful. It made me like Aaron Rodgers regardless of what I think today. But it's a fascinating book. So I'm watching the documentary on him, which is, you know, hero worship for 13 minutes, then they, they go after him. Jeff Pearlman now joining us live, knows Brett Favre, knows the packers, knows Aaron Rodgers. So I, you know, it's. I, so we were talking during the break. I've always had this theory, and I call it the Green Bay quarterback theory, is that Favre's a Southerner, Aaron Rodgers is a hipster out west, and they morphed into the same guy. Is that at the end they got needy, a bit precious, a little rigid, weird. And yet they're different personalities. But you have no owner. It's the smallest market. You can't go to the grocery store. You have to hide in a golf course. And it does affect you. You become literally bigger than life. As good as Matt Stafford is, Stan Kroenke runs the show and so does McVeigh. When, when Favre started to unravel, Jeff Pearlman, were you surprised by it or did you see things that made you wonder?

[Unknown]

I actually think you make a really good point, which is it's this God complex thing that happens when you're a small market quarterback. You can't, like you said, you can't go anywhere. People treat you like a God. Literally like a God. You are the king of the landscape. And at some point, it's just unsustainable. Either you get old, you get hurt, you go somewhere else. Suddenly you're not treated that way. So you're Brett Favre. Suddenly you're a New York jet. You're living in suburban New Jersey. You're part of this franchise. You don't know. You're by yourself, living in a hotel every day, and before you know it, you're sending penis pictures to an employee of the team. Like, I just think he got so used to being a certain way, deified, glorified. All of a sudden he's in a New situation, and he doesn't have the maturity or the personal development to handle it. I just think that's the very short story of it all.

[Colin Cowherd]

Yeah. So let's go to Aaron. Aaron, I've always thought bright. I think he's well read. I think he's interesting. He's a little iconoclastic. I mean, he's a different cat. He clearly pushes back on authority. It could be the government, it could be vaccines. It could be the media. He pushes back in authority. That's okay. I am for that. Go back for the people that haven't read the book. Your books are fascinating. The Walter Payton book, I think, has always been lost because you've done so much. That's a fantastic book. And he's the best running back I've ever seen, probably by far. So during the Aaron Farve stuff, when I read your book, I had sympathy for Aaron. I didn't think Brett was nice to him. Are you surprised what he sort of morphed into, which is kind of to a fault? I'm. I do my own homework guy. All right.

[Unknown]

So it's interesting, I think. I'm sure you've dealt with these people, too. Every now and then in sports, you come across someone who believes from the beginning that he is the. He or she are the smartest people in the room. I am the smartest person in this room. Nobody is as intelligent as me. And I feel like Rogers has had that from a very young age. When he arrived in Green Bay, he. He really far was terrible to him. Like, terrible. I mean, there are moments of just, like, treating him like absolute crap. There was a. The humiliating time for Aaron Rodgers. It might sound kind of quaint in hindsight is he takes his helmet one day, he puts it on the memorabilia table in the locker room. Everyone's signing Aaron Rodgers's helmet before practice. He's scurrying around, can't find his helmet. Someone says, that's yours. It's filled with signatures. He has to go to practice as a rookie wearing the signature filled helmet, and he's mortified and he's humiliated. But I just think over time, especially being in a small Midwestern town surrounded by the Midwestern quaintness of Green Bay, I think Aaron Rodgers really started to believe I'm the smartest guy in the room. I know everything. I am very intelligent. I know more than the coaches. I know more than my teammates. I know more than this fan base. And again, if you can contain that in Green Bay, Wisconsin, it's one thing you're treated as a God. But once you go national, once you go to a different franchise, it doesn't really play out that well because people just see you as kind of a douche.

[Colin Cowherd]

So I got to ask you, you know the Bus family? Well, you wrote the book on the Lakers dynasty of the 80s, and it's a fascinating book which got made into an HBO series. And it's. It's really. It's one of those you can't put down. It's. I always knew Kobe was difficult. Then I read the book, and I'm like, how did Phil not go after him? It was just crazy. But, you know, the Buss family and I. And I've said this to a friend. About a month ago, I said, luke has got a little shack. I'm not sure how committed he is in the off season. I. You know, I'm. There are games he shows up where I think his mind is elsewhere. But he's good for the brand. He's good for merch. He's insanely talented. Knowing how the Buss family eventually made a decision to move off Shaq, do you think the kids have some of those same frustrations with Luca knowing that they literally had to call a meeting about his cardiovascular health after the year?

[Unknown]

So it'd be impossible for me to put myself in Jeannie Buss's head, obviously. I think, number one, they obviously had to make that trade, like you had to make that trade. You're getting a young superstar in his prime. The problem is, like, you touched upon Luca. I don't even understand it. You make all this money, and you're. One thing you need to be in is shape. That's it. So the biggest qualification of this job is you need to be in shape. And the thing about Shaq that's interesting is when Shaq was with the Lakers until Kobe really gained some power and really, really started calling out Shaq behind the scenes for his lack of fitness. I don't think the family was particularly bothered by it because he, number one, he sold jerseys. Number two, he was charismatic. Number three, he produced. And I think Luka, technically, is the same thing. He does produce, he does sell jerseys. He is pretty charismatic. I think it's going to get really tricky once Lucas shows up at training camp 30 pounds overweight, once other teammates start calling him out, once you start hearing the whispers, because in this town, in Los Angeles, whispers travel very quickly. And if the Lakers start struggling and you have this star who's supposed to be great, and he's on the injured list, yet again. And he looks doughy. Yet again. I just think. I don't know what their reaction is going to be emotionally or mentally. I just know they're going to be trapped yet again. All these Laker fans who think we've escaped, we're awesome. We have Luca. It's a little bit of fool's gold, potentially.

[Colin Cowherd]

You're a New Yorker. Where did you grow up in New York?

[Unknown]

I grew up in a tiny town called Mayhopac, New York.

[Colin Cowherd]

Okay. Is that outside the city?

[Unknown]

About an hour north. Right outside of New York City. An hour north of the city.

[Colin Cowherd]

So I. When I worked at the other place, I always claimed it wasn't a Yankee town or a Giants town, it's a Knicks town. Is that everybody loved the Knicks baseball and football opinions. And so when I watch Madison Square Garden and I've said this on the air, I'm sorry, that's the best basketball city in the country. It looks different. It feels different. So you tell you've been to Madison Square Garden plenty of times. It's kind of a spiritual revelation for all New Yorkers. What. What are you going through as a true New Yorker right now?

[Unknown]

Well, the funny thing is, first of all, I just want to say I grew up. I was the one kid in my school who was a New Jersey Nets fan. So I was a big. Hey, give come me a break, man. I was a big, big Pearl Washington, Buck Williams, you know, Michael Corn fan. But the Knicks owned. You are 100% correct. The Knicks are the universal love of New York and the Rangers to a slightly lesser degree. And when it's pumping, when the Garden is pumping, when the team is playing well, there is nowhere like it. Madison Square Garden has always maintained its electricity. The air of excitement, the buzz. When you had Patrick Ewing going, when you had, you know, you know, Latrell Sprewell going, there's something about it that feels visceral and fierce. It's just something different. You don't get to go in a Laker game or a Clipper game. You just. It's something different. And it's an advantage the Knicks have that you're not going to get if you're the Pacers or potentially in the Finals, if you go to Oklahoma City, it's just something really raw. And it's kind of like this. When you meet a New Yorker and they're like, yo, you got to go to this place and get a slice and. And that guy sucks and blah, blah, blah, that's Madison Square Garden. It takes everything about New York and puts it in one building.

Be sure to catch live editions of the Herd, weekdays at noon Eastern, 9am Pacific.

[Jeff Pearlman]

Summer is almost here and you can now get almost anything you need for your sunny days delivered with Uber Eats. Now, what do we mean by almost? Well, you can't get a well groomed lawn delivered, but you can get chicken parm delivered. A day at the lake? That's a no. A Philly cheesesteak? That's a yes. A nice tan? Sorry. A box fan? Happily, yes. What about a day of sunshine? Not happening. How about a box of fine wines? Yeah, that's happening. Delivery's on its way. Okay, how about some clear skies?

[Colin Cowherd]

Nope.

[Jeff Pearlman]

Well, how about some french fries? Yeah. So how about a freshly cut lawn? Can't help you there. But a barbecued prawn? Order it and it's on its way. Even throw in some paper towels. Clean up after the feast. So while you can't get fun in the sun delivered, don't worry because you can get pork buns delivered. Uber Eats can definitely get you that. Get almost, almost anything delivered with Uber Eats. Order now. Alcohol in select markets. Product availability may vary by region. See app for details.

[Colin Cowherd]

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[Jeff Pearlman]

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[Jason McIntyre]

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[Colin Cowherd]

I don't know if you prepared for this, but I've been joking that if I don't get invited to the Belichick Jordan Hudson wedding, I'll be bitter because I'm the only American media member supporting the relationship. And I had this discussion last night. I said, okay, if she was 36, would you be okay with it? If he was 64, would you be okay? I said, in the end, I'm not judging people's relationships as long as both people are here for it. Do I think there's a little bit of her as a willful young woman seeing opportunities? Yes. Do I think Bill understanding she's his social stockbroker on the Internet and she's a beautiful young lady. They're both getting something out of it. I it doesn't bother me, but I feel like I'm on a total island. Jeff Pearlman what do you make of Jordan Hunts and Bill Belichick?

[Unknown]

All right, so I have a 22 year old daughter and if she came home one day and said, dad, I wanted you to meet my new my new boyfriend, he's 65 years old or 67 years old, I Think I would be a little troubled by this one. I don't. They can do what they want. They're consenting adults. I think it's a little weird. I think her role is definitely weird. I'm sure North Carolina is secretly freaking out and thinking we didn't really. I don't think we knew what we signed up for with this one. I think that's the big issue here is, like, the sense of control that she seems to have over his affairs. Yeah, if it was my daughter's boyfriend, I'd be freaked out. I would not be happy as a spectator. People can do what they want.

[Colin Cowherd]

Okay. Yeah, no, I've said that before, too. I. I wouldn't personally like it, but I do feel like in a weird way, both are using each other for what it appears they want. And I don't like to be the moralist. That's not who I am. All right, before we go, you have been writing a book for a year and you do six, seven, eight, hundred interviews. It's. I don't know how you do. Goes on sale in October on Tupac Shakur. Only God Can Judge Me. The Many lives of Tupac Shakur. Give me one revelation in the book because you obviously had some sense of his music, of his iconic history. Give me one revelation in the book that you. It was a jaw dropping moment for you.

[Unknown]

Oh, I would say the biggest one is Tupac Shakur. Everyone knows his ashes were sent off the Pacific in a ceremony in Maui, but Tupac's mother, Fenny Shakur, actually saved it. And he's buried. I'm not going to say where, but he is actually buried beneath a grave site in a field in the most. Out of nowhere you would never think place ever with a tombstone and a headstone. And so Tupac Shakur, whoever thinks was this cremated was actually, actually has a burial site that I actually went to and stood at. So that was kind of mind blowing.

[Colin Cowherd]

So is it in California?

[Unknown]

It is not in California. It is in the South.

[Colin Cowherd]

Wow. Now you just. You. You just started something. Now everybody's going to go crazy.

[Unknown]

I know, I know, I know.

[Colin Cowherd]

Yeah, yeah. I'm a Northwest kid. Jimi Hendrix is buried up there. Okay. All right. Jeff Pearlman. The book comes out in October on Tupac. Only God Can Judge Me. The Many Lives. Good seeing you again, Jeff, and good luck on the book.

[Unknown]

All right, thank you so much. Take care.

[Colin Cowherd]

Yeah. The Farve, the Green Bay situation with Favre and Rogers, it is just different. I mean, Matt Stafford, think about this. Think how Great Matt Stafford is, and Stan KROENKE and Sean McVeigh basically said, hey, here's the number.

[Jeff Pearlman]

Right?

[Colin Cowherd]

Like, here's the number. I mean, Mahomes has done team friendly deals. Josh Allen is certainly just part of the Bill's fabric. I always feel like if you're Favre or you're Rogers, you're a Packer, but you're sort of living in a silo. You're not, you know, you're not beholden to an owner. You're not protected by anonymity in a vast North American city where you can hide. I remember years ago talking to a basketball player. He's a really nice guy, Damon Stoudemire, and he played in Portland for years. He was one of the great high school basketball players in the history of the Pacific Northwest. And he played in Portland. And he said, you know, I actually love playing in Toronto. And I'm like, really? It's like, you know, three, 4,000 miles away. He goes, I could hide. He goes, I can't hide in Portland. And so I think Green Bay is. Is that times 10. I think it, I think it does change you when you are not just romanticized or appreciated, you are worshiped. J. Mac with the news.

[Unknown]

No, no, no, turn on the news. This is the Herd line news.

Let's start with Cam Ward and the Tennessee Titans. Colin, I know you're fired up about this team. I was excited in the offseason, then the schedule, not great. Brian Callahan, for now, is splitting the first team reps between Cam Ward and Will Levis. Your guy with the bathroom selfies. Here's Callahan on his quarterback battle.

They both handled it really well. I've been pleased with, with their demeanor and their approach. Will's done a really nice job of, of getting better at things he needed to get better at. I felt really pretty good about his offseason work and how he's come back. Bless you. Cam has done a really nice job of integrating himself. And a lot of that is just knowing, knowing the play call, being able to spit it out in the huddle, having the tempo, getting familiar with the, with the receivers and what the words mean and how to call it and how your snap count sounds. All that stuff has been really well done on his part.

I think we both would agree. Cam Ward's going to be the guy. But I'm just curious. Put yourself in Will Levis's shoes. How do you handle this? Like, hey, man, we just drafted this guy number one. You've been the guy for two years. But like, you had your chance.

[Colin Cowherd]

Yeah, no, I mean, it's. I think the organization, I mean, again, it was. Will Levis had an offensive coach, a very good offensive line coach. He had a weapon or two. You know, I think Will Levis became what a lot of people that watched him in the sec. He became what a lot of people predicted he would become, which is his judgment was dicey. He threw really bad picks. He often didn't see the field particularly well. He looks the part, you know, he's strong, he's athletic, he's got a big arm. He's cut. But he became, I mean, his college tape of Will Levis. He became Will Levis, sec, which was weird. Plays bad judgment, not seeing clear defenders in the path of a throw. And I was not a huge fan. I said, if I recall, I did not really see him as a first round quarterback. I just thought I saw him. I saw him make way too many really bad throws. And if you're doing that in college, you're probably going to do that more in the NFL.

[Unknown]

That being said, right, we talked about Geno Smith earlier. I mean, there's a world where Will Levis is Geno Smith in five years. He could easily turn this around. Colin, the guy's got some talent. He's got a big arm. Hey, whoa, whoa, whoa. Don't give me that look. Remember Mark Sanchez? Talk to him. He's got some stories about early Geno Smith. That guy was not locked in at all. He was a train wreck with the Jets. He's now turned it around. Baker Mayfield, some of these guys second, third stop, Sam Darnold and Gino I think went second round in the draft. So I'm not crushing Will Levitz here. He's got a shot, just not in Tennessee. Next up, let's go to another quarterback situation. The Cleveland Browns. Shador and Dylan Gabriel are battling for their roles on the depth chart. Shador says there's no bad blood between the two, adding, I like how he handles situations, especially just the negative media that's coming his way. Shador also says that he and Gabriel are for sure learning from each other during the off season program. And just to remind you, Kenny Pickett is currently the leader in the clubhouse. Joe Flacco, kind of the veteran guy there.

[Colin Cowherd]

I don't buy Kenny Pickett's the leader in the clubhouse.

[Jeff Pearlman]

I don't buy it.

[Unknown]

Who's starting week one?

[Colin Cowherd]

Joe Flacco, start Shadour Sanders within a month to five week. Go look at Cleveland schedule. If our guys put it up. They're going to have. There's. I. I already told you, if you look at their schedule. Let's give them. Let's give them. I don't think this is going to happen. Let's give them the win over Cincinnati at home, although I don't see it.

[Unknown]

You think they're winning that opener against Joe Burrow?

[Colin Cowherd]

The line's going to be three and a half. It's not that big of a shock. Somebody, by the way, the last eight years there's been a shocking week one, you know, in a Bengals o line scout. So they lose to Baltimore, Green Bay, Detroit. I think at that point, Jimmy Haslam, the owner wants him to start week five at home against Minnesota. Home game Shedeur. This is my theory. The coaching staff will win the argument. They'll start Flacco, Flacco will beat Minnesota, lose to Pittsburgh and then Shedeur is going to get the start around that. Miami, New England by space.

[Unknown]

I know Brian Flores defense. I think that would be dangerous for Shador. He ain't starting against the jets in week 10. He's going to get slaughtered on the road. Ravens. I don't see it. I'm not sure, Colin. Anyways, we got to get to the best story of the day. Okay, so you and I both love this LeBron stuff. Well, guess what. David Falk, who hardcore sports fans know with the agent from Michael Jordan, one of the most famous NBA agents of all time, he recently was on a panel and he was asked, hey man, obviously you have Michael Jordan. 1. Is LeBron your number two of all time? David Falk, Michael Jordan's agent said, hey, I really like LeBron, but I think if Jordan had cherry pick picked what teams he wanted to be on and two other superstars, he would have won 15 championships.

[Colin Cowherd]

All right, well, so you're saying if, if Michael would have been mobile. So here's the problem. If Michael would have been mobile, does he get Phil Jackson, does he get.

[Unknown]

Scotty Pippen, you know, lost.

[Colin Cowherd]

There's two things about Michael Jordan and I. He certainly. I think the three players that have an argument as the best ever are Michael, LeBron and Kareem. Put them in any order you want. Those are the three. Two things that are lost about Michael Jordan. It's as if they disappeared. Number one is after winning the title as a freshman the next two years of college basketball. He didn't win in college because he didn't have James Worthy. The other thing that's lost is go find me all his playoff series wins without Pippen.

[Unknown]

Yep.

[Colin Cowherd]

Good luck. And again, I. When he lost James Worthy in college, no titles. When he lost. When he didn't have PIPPEN in the NBA, nothing. No title.

[Unknown]

Yeah. So, Colin, yeah, 100% agree with you. This whole LeBron Jordan debate, it's fun, man. You there.

The.

The Michael Jordan snowflake fans out there are so sensitive. Anything you say just gets destroyed. People come after you crazily. Colin, I just want to continue to point out to everybody, wherever LeBron has gone, Cleveland, Louisiana. Miami, he wins. And you'll say, well, Jay, he gets great teammates. You can look it up. LeBron did it all. Letting leading the team in rebounds, leading the team in points, leading in assists. All Jordan did was score. He was a great defender. But Scotty Pippen is the guy who was leading the team in steals and blocks, doing the real dirty work. And again, I'm not denigrating Jordan. I think he's a clear number two to. To LeBron James. That's obvious. But like this idea. Colin, come on.

[Colin Cowherd]

I would slow down that mobility necessarily is always the answer. I've talked about this in my life. I bounced around to six, seven different cities. But the downside is my kids weren't raised in one culdesac and have lifelong friends on that. That's the downside to it. The downside to mobility is that sometimes you have to deal with multiple owners. And we know that sports, by and large, has as many bad owners as good owners.

[Unknown]

Exactly.

[Colin Cowherd]

So, I mean, the Lakers owners, actually, the Buss family are some of the poorest owners. Dan Snyder was not. Dan Gilbert, I didn't think was one of the great owners. Mickey Ariston in Miami was. So, yes, LeBron has won titles on multiple teams because of mobility, but Michael also had the advantage. He played in a city where, you know, people like to play Chicago. Jerry Krause say what you want. Was a very good gm. Scotty Pippen's arguably the best Robin ever. Phil Jackson's the greatest coach ever. So Jerry Krause kept reinventing and re fortifying this Tony Kukoc. The Bulls went and got Tony Kukoc. At the time, he was the best European player in the league.

[Unknown]

Yeah, they had a stacked team. Remember when they. When Jordan came back from baseball and they lost to the Orlando Magic, Michael Jordan was like, go get me. You know, this guy. I need guys. And like, he. He got to kind of handpick his free agents. I just want to remind people, it's not like LeBron started the super teams. Remember, he took The Cav to the finals when he was 22. Colin, the Celtics, they were the ones who said, give me Ray Allen, give me Kevin Garnett to join forces with Pierce to become a super team. LeBron created them to then go form his own super team.

[Colin Cowherd]

Because I've always said this. If you gave me LeBron and Michael and there was 10 seconds left in a game, in one shot, I take Michael. He was a better. He was a better offensive play. His mid range is better than anything I've ever seen. If you gave me a series, just one series, I'd probably take Michael. If you gave me an entire playoff run. Because LeBron elevates every teammate he's ever had. I think I take LeBron. If you give me a season, I would take LeBron.

[Unknown]

Just remember, LeBron has a talk.

[Colin Cowherd]

If you're talking a possession, it is Michael all day long. I mean, I don't trust LeBron at the free throw line. Still LeBron's jumper, he loses confidence in that. Until the last couple of years. If we're talking a possession, it ain't close.

[Unknown]

But the problem is, you're saying like Last couple years, LeBron's still playing. Michael Jordan quit the NBA twice. He left, he bailed. But you guys still at the top.

[Colin Cowherd]

Of his game, contextualize it. Nutrition's better, training's better. The whole world's different. People ate steak and potatoes, played cards and drank wine in the 80s. That's the reality. People's life expectancy. It was the Western classic diet where steak was considered a health food and a baked potato and a glass of wine was considered healthy eating.

[Unknown]

You said so.

[Colin Cowherd]

I'm never going to blame Michael for that. I think it comes down to I always said LeBron's a much more athletic version of magic and Michael is a stronger, better defender than Kobe. That's their comps. They're just different guys in different eras. J Mac with the news.

[Unknown]

Well, that's the news. And thanks for stopping by the herd line news.

[Colin Cowherd]

Yeah. If you're telling me in the history of basketball, basketball, there's two players I would take if I have 15 seconds left. Kareem on the sky hook and Michael on the mid range.

[Jason McIntyre]

Yeah, that.

[Colin Cowherd]

Those two. I may take Larry Bird third. That's not LeBron's strength. LeBron's strength is over time, he elevates everybody. He is in such incredible shape and so strong. He wears you down over time. But if you're talking. Get me a bucket now, there's probably eight guys, 12 guys I put including Kevin Durant in front of LeBron James. It's the herd.

[Unknown]

One more herd. The herd streams 24 hours a day, seven days a week within the iHeartRadio app. Search herd to listen live or on demand, whenever you'd like.

Hey, it's Steve Covino. And I'm Rich Davis. And together we're Covino and Rich on Fox Sports Radio. You can catch us weekdays from 5 to 7pm Eastern, 2 to 4 Pacific, on Fox Sports Radio. And of course, the iHeartrade radio app. Why should you listen to Covino and Rich? We talk about everything. Life, sports, relationships, what's going on in the world. We have a lot of fun talking about the stories behind the stories in the world of sports and pop culture. Stories that, well, other shows don't seem to have the time to discuss. And the fact that we've been friends for the last 20 years and still work together, I mean, that says something, right? So check us out. We like to get you involved, too. Take your phone calls, chop it up, as they say. I'd say the most interactive show on Fox Sports Radio, maybe the most interactive show on planet Earth. Be sure to check out Covino and Rich live on Fox Sports radio and the iHeartradio app from 5 to 7pm Eastern, 2 to 4 Pacific. And if you miss any of the live show, just search Ko Vino and Rich wherever you get your podcast. And of course, on social media, that's Covino and Rich.

[Jeff Pearlman]

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[Colin Cowherd]

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[Jason McIntyre]

At the end of the season, there's.

[Colin Cowherd]

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[Colin Cowherd]

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[Jason McIntyre]

The Gemini Credit Card is pretty much a no brainer and right now you can grab a $200 bitcoin intro bonus. So go to gemini.comcard to learn more and start earning today. Terms apply. Again, go to gemini.com card start building your Bitcoin stash now. Terms apply. The Gemini Credit Card is issued by Web Bank. In order to Qualify for the intro $200 crypto bonus, your application must be approved by June 30, 2025 and spend $3,000 in your first 90 days. Terms apply. Some exclusions apply to instant rewards, in which rewards are deposited when the transaction posts this content is not investment advice and Trading Crypto involves risk for more details on rates, fees and other Gemini credit card terms, see Rates and Fees.

[Unknown]

Saturday it's baseball night in America, featuring two of the biggest stars in baseball as Shohei Ohtani leads the Dodgers against Juan Soto and the Mets, where the Guardians take on the Tigers. Check local listings for the game in your area. Saturday, 7 Eastern on Fox.

[Colin Cowherd]

So the Tush push, it's official, narrowly squeaked by and it will remain for another year. I'm surprised they've change the kickoffs, the horse collar tackling, Cam Chancellor jumping over to block field goals. If there's a sense in the NFL there's a little unnecessary danger, usually they ban it. Now it should be noted that the Rules Committee and the health committees, like they both encouraged the league to ban the tush push. So their two biggest committees, the Rules Committee and the Health and Safety Committee, both said no, I'd get rid of it. And the owners listened to Jason Kelsey, his spirited conviction for it. That's my opinion. He did speak and I you know, Jason's a very respected guy in the league and the Kelsey's are, you know, they are the NFL right now, right along with the great quarterbacks in the league. I think that probably pushed a couple of, you know, no votes to approval votes. That's my guess. Here's Chris Sims earlier on, the owners not banning the play they all took.

[Unknown]

The side of like, man, it seems a little odd to take the play that the best team in football has been known for the last three years. We're going to take that away from them because we can't stop it. The play itself, if you want to even talk about the danger of it or the beauty of it, is the wedge created by the biggest offensive line we've seen in football since the cowboys of the 90s.

[Colin Cowherd]

For everybody else, for two reasons. Jalen hurts, squats 600 pounds. I don't think any other quarterback does, I guess, but I don't think they do. And so he is so small, compact and strong. He is just a hard guy like Josh Allen or Justin Herbert or bigger quarterbacks. You can go up high on them. Hertz is small, compact and incredibly forceful with his 600 pound squatting resume. So that's part of why it works. Secondly, it's the biggest offensive line in the league. I mean, the only other team that has an offensive line that's the equivalent or close is the Detroit Lions and golf's a tall, gangly guy that I assure you, does not squat 600 pounds. So it just works for them. And Dion Dawkins from our show recently, he stands mostly with a tush push. It's very hard thing to do. But it's so weird because we play a game of inches, right? Like, what's the best play to get an inch? The touch push.

[Unknown]

It's hard to take it out or.

[Colin Cowherd]

It'S hard to change it because it's so necessary in the game. Yeah, I mean, it's. How many Third and ones. The NFL is largely about moving the chains, move the sticks. Keeps your defense off the field. You know, you own the clock. I mean, it's. It's just get first downs. And Philadelphia does that at an accelerated rate. They've done this play more than everybody else. So. Yeah, again, the reason I didn't think it would pass and without Jason Kelsey, I'm not sure if it does, is anything that looks a little dangerous or there's any data that shows it's dangerous. Now, there's no data that shows the Tush push is getting guys hurt, but I don't think there was any data showing that Cam Chancellor jumping over line to block kicks. I don't think that was. That was ruled as sort of unfair. Well, you know, Cam Chancellor can do it. Maybe everybody else doesn't have a Cam Chancellor. It looks a little risky. Where was the data? So, you know, I listen when you get into politics, it could be the Senate, it could be Congress. If you get a spirited debate or a spirited speaker with great conviction, and they're trying to sell you something. That's why a million people on the Internet are selling you how to have great abs or how to get rich is if, you know, if you. There are just people out there that you get them in front of a mic, you get them in front of people, it's performative, and they can sell their belief system. It could be Tony Robbins, it could be Jason Kelsey on the Tush push, and I think it probably swayed a handful of voters, so I'm fine with it. I'm surprised. J. Mac, word of your way.

[Unknown]

Yeah, I'm pro Tush push. I'm looking at the votes of how this broke down. And it's interesting because, you know, the Eagles coach came out and was like, yes, Shane Steichen is a head coach because of the Tush push. And Shane Steichen is not backing the Tush push. I don't know if you noticed that. So I think it was 20. They they were off by two votes. My guess is this will be the last year of the Tush push.

[Colin Cowherd]

Yeah, if I had to guess, I mean they've been, they've been talking about the kickoff for years. They finally changed that. This is a rule of this is a league of change. Yes, it's, I mean they changed the catch rule during an Eagles, Patriot, Super Bowl. It is a league of change. Always been fluid. We'll see you tomorrow.

[Jason McIntyre]

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[Colin Cowherd]

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[Jason McIntyre]

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[Colin Cowherd]

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[Colin Cowherd]

You're listening to an iHeart podcast.