Hour 3 - The improvement of Caleb Williams

Summary

Podcast Summary: The Herd with Colin Cowherd – Hour 3: The Improvement of Caleb Williams

Introduction The Herd with Colin Cowherd, hosted by iHeartPodcasts and The Volume, delves into the most compelling sports narratives of the day with a blend of insightful analysis and candid opinions. In the episode titled "Hour 3 - The Improvement of Caleb Williams," released on November 27, 2024, hosts Greg Cosell and Joy Taylor engage in an in-depth discussion about the remarkable progress of Caleb Williams, a standout quarterback in the NFL.

Caleb Williams' Ascendancy The core focus of this episode centers on Caleb Williams' significant improvement on the field. Greg Cosell initiates the conversation, highlighting Caleb's enhanced performance under new coaching strategies. He remarks, “But he's also got now a new coach, new confidence. I thought Caleb looked good” (01:25).

Neil deGrasse Tyson contributes by emphasizing Caleb's technical growth, particularly his proficiency in executing tight window throws. He states, “...his willingness, ability to make tight window throws between the numbers and between the hashes” (02:07). Tyson underscores Caleb's decision-making capabilities, noting that his confidence in making difficult throws sets him apart from many quarterbacks who hesitate in similar situations.

Coaching Influence and System Dynamics A significant portion of the discussion revolves around the impact of coaching on Caleb's development. Greg Cosell acknowledges the role of the coaching staff, saying, “Obviously, we have to give a lot of credit to Sean Payton and his coaching” (18:13), pointing out that strategic adjustments have empowered Caleb to maximize his potential.

The hosts delve into how the offensive system has evolved to better suit Caleb's strengths. Greg mentions, “They put it on Caleb Williams here. Now, one interesting subplot is Caleb Williams has done great against zone defense this year against man...” (25:03), highlighting the adaptability of both the player and the team in countering defensive strategies.

Comparisons with Other Quarterbacks Throughout the episode, comparisons are drawn between Caleb Williams and other prominent quarterbacks like Sam Darnold, Daniel Jones, Josh Allen, and Patrick Mahomes. Greg Cosell posits, “Daniel Jones will never be a great quarterback, but he could be the best backup in the league” (11:48), juxtaposing his potential growth against Caleb's trajectory.

Neil deGrasse Tyson adds perspective on Josh Allen and Joe Burrow, noting, “Burrow, you could argue he's playing the best quarterback in the league” (10:59), yet emphasizing that despite their individual talents, cohesive team dynamics are crucial for sustained success—an area where Caleb Williams appears to be excelling.

Impact on Team Performance and League Dynamics The improvement of Caleb Williams is not examined in isolation; its ripple effects on team performance and league dynamics are thoroughly explored. Greg Cosell discusses the implications for the Minnesota team, “Caleb Williams will be spectacular and they can't get the coaching right” (12:50), suggesting that while Caleb's growth is promising, team cohesion and coaching strategies remain pivotal.

The conversation extends to strategic matchups and the adaptability of defenses, with references to how Caleb's enhanced skills can exploit weaknesses in opposing teams. "Caleb's ability to read and dismantle zone defenses makes him a formidable opponent," Greg asserts, reinforcing the notion that his improvement could tilt the competitive balance in favor of his team.

Insights and Analysis The hosts provide multifaceted insights into Caleb Williams' development. Greg Cosell notes, “He’s a bigger, stronger athlete with a bigger arm” (22:33), attributing part of Caleb's success to his physical attributes complemented by strategic coaching.

Joy Taylor emphasizes the importance of system compatibility, stating, “With a running game, with a solid O line, with quality receivers, a system that's really good at presenting defined reads and throws, that he could be an efficient player who could run your offense effectively” (13:38). This highlights the symbiotic relationship between a quarterback's skills and the offensive framework within which he operates.

Conclusion The episode culminates with a consensus on Caleb Williams' promising trajectory in the NFL. Both hosts agree that his improvement is a testament to his hard work, coaching support, and the strategic adjustments made by his team. Greg Cosell concludes, “With a system that supports his strengths, Caleb Williams is poised to become one of the standout quarterbacks in the league” (14:00).

Notable Quotes

• Greg Cosell (01:25): “But he's also got now a new coach, new confidence. I thought Caleb looked good.”

• Neil deGrasse Tyson (02:07): “...his willingness, ability to make tight window throws between the numbers and between the hashes.”

• Greg Cosell (11:48): “Daniel Jones will never be a great quarterback, but he could be the best backup in the league.”

• Greg Cosell (22:33): “He’s a bigger, stronger athlete with a bigger arm.”

• Joy Taylor (13:38): “With a running game, with a solid O line, with quality receivers, a system that's really good at presenting defined reads and throws, that he could be an efficient player who could run your offense effectively.”

Timestamp References

• [01:25] Greg Cosell introduces Caleb Williams' new coaching and increased confidence.
• [02:07] Neil deGrasse Tyson discusses Caleb's technical improvements.
• [11:48] Greg Cosell compares Daniel Jones and Caleb Williams.
• [13:38] Joy Taylor analyzes system compatibility with Caleb's skills.
• [14:00] Greg Cosell summarizes Caleb's potential in the league.
• [18:13] Greg Cosell credits coaching staff for Caleb's success.
• [22:33] Greg Cosell highlights Caleb's physical attributes.
• [25:03] Discussion on Caleb’s performance against defensive strategies.

Final Thoughts This episode of The Herd with Colin Cowherd offers a comprehensive examination of Caleb Williams' rise in the NFL, blending tactical analysis with broader league insights. Through expert commentary and thoughtful discussion, listeners gain a nuanced understanding of what makes Caleb Williams a player to watch as he continues to evolve into a premier quarterback.

Transcript

[Colin Cowherd]

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[Joy Taylor]

He shoots a three.

[Colin Cowherd]

You can catch the next game on the way home. That's the powerful backing of American Express. Terms apply. Learn [e-mail] with AmEx card member entrance access not limited to AMEX Platinum Card.

[Jeremy Hobson]

We live in a divided country. I am a lifelong Republican with all kinds of different people.

[Greg Cosell]

You know, I'm a mother, I'm a grandmother.

[Jeremy Hobson]

And every week on the Middle with Jeremy Hobson podcast, we bring them all together with an all star panel. Mark Cuban, so great to have you on the middle.

[Joy Taylor]

Thanks for having me.

[Jeremy Hobson]

Jeremy, Neil Degrasse Tyson, welcome to the middle.

[Mark Cuban]

Thanks for having me.

[Jeremy Hobson]

And listen not to the extremes, but to the people who want to meet in the middle.

[Joy Taylor]

Anna, I'm calling from Las Vegas.

[Jeremy Hobson]

Listen to the Middle with Jeremy Hobson on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Greg Cosell]

Thanks for listening to the Herd podcast. Be sure to catch us live every weekday on Fox Sports Radio and noon to 3 Eastern, 9am to noon Pacific. Find your local station for the [e-mail] or stream us live every day on the iHeartRadio app by searching Fox Sports Radio or FSR.

[Joy Taylor]

Now let's get this party started.

[Jon Stewart]

You're listening to Fox Sports radio.

[Greg Cosell]

Go to genesis.com. check out the Genesis GV70 athletic lines, coupe like profile, but an artfully crafted SUV drive one today. Greg Cosell, 45 years, NFL Films now joining us live. All right, I want to start. I mean we do this every week and we just go back and forth. But he's also got now a new coach, new confidence. I thought Caleb looked good. I thought Keenan Allen became his primary target, which I love. When young quarterbacks. Bo Nicks, Cortland Sutton, jaden Daniels, Terry McLaurin. I like when Caleb like designates. Okay, I'm going to Keenan Allen. This is what I'm working on. It felt like that. What did the tape say? 45 years at NFL Films. What did the tape say on Caleb Williams?

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Yeah, I thought he looked really good and there was one thing that really stood out and I think that's essential to be a really high level quarterback in this league, particularly as a passer. And that was his willingness, an ability to make tight window throws between the Numbers and between the hashes. Again, zone defense. And the thing that's so impressive about that is he saw those throws as viable throws, as throws that he was willing to make. And there's a lot of quarterbacks that are good quarterbacks in this league that don't necessarily see those throws as viable throws. We know he can run around and make plays. Of course, everybody focused on that pass to Swift when he ran to his right. And he'll make those kinds of plays, but that won't make him a great quarterback. So I was really impressed just with the confidence, the willingness he showed to make difficult, tight window throws between the numbers and between the hashes.

[Greg Cosell]

Let's stay in that game and stay in the NFC north, because Minnesota now is a real thing. This is nine and two. We all kept waiting for the bubble to burst. What are they doing to get the best out of Sam Darnold? Because that's what I'm seeing. The best Sam by a long shot.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Oh, yeah. Well, it all comes down to how you structure your pass game. The route concepts, the route combinations, how you present them to the quarterback, particularly against zone coverage. Man to man, obviously, is a different animal because then you can pick out who you want to throw to. But when you're playing against zone coverage, it's the route concepts and the combinations that become so important and how you present that to the quarterback to read them based on anticipated zone concepts. And they. And you know, Kevin O'Connell does such a good job with that. And they have such good concepts where they overload zones. They put corners and safeties in conflict because they're not just going to stand there. Corners and safeties, they have to react to routes, so they put them in conflict with the nature of routes. And Darnold's reading this really clearly. You've always watched Arnold Collin. I don't think we've ever seen him throw the ball this confidently from the pocket in the NFL where he feels really comfortable in what he's seeing and who he's throwing it to.

[Greg Cosell]

Okay, now, tomorrow, Green Bay, Miami, late game. Fascinating warm weather. Miami and TUA have struggled up north. Let's start with the Dolphins, who have played very good football for several weeks. Kind of sort of started in that loss up at Buffalo. So what are they doing? Why is their offense just more viable as they ran the Patriots off the field?

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Well, I think it goes back to when TUA plays, even going back to last year when he led the NFL in passing yards. They use motion more than any team in the League. There's more movement before the snap of the ball in their offense than any other team in the League. And Mike McDaniel, Daniel does such a great job in terms of moving defenders with his motion. So he expands the defense, he widens the defense, he creates windows. And there's no better window thrower in the NFL than TUA in terms of throwing with timing and anticipation. I mean, I could tell you watching tape, there's so many times where he's starting his delivery when I watch a play from the end zone camera and the receiver's not even in the screen yet. He's just so good at that. And they do such a great job of creating just enough space in those windows for him. I mean, last week, for instance, they obviously felt that the Patriots could not stop the pass because in the first half when they built, I believe, a 24 nothing lead, they had 37 called plays, 27 called passes, and only 10 called runs. So they obviously felt that they could throw the ball against the Patriots, and they did. But two has looked really good. He's been really sharp. The ball comes out of his hand. He's taking short passes quicker if he doesn't feel like he has a throw. It's just been a very, very efficient offense.

[Greg Cosell]

So it's interesting. I liked Aaron Jones, but Josh Jacobs, to me, feels like more the classic workhorse. You can give him 20 carries, he's just there. Not many backs like that. He is now. One of them are the packers when you watch film, because Jordan love. I like him, but he can be reckless. Are they better suited?

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Yes.

[Greg Cosell]

To be a power run team?

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Maybe. Well, you're right about Jacobs, by the way, Colin. He's a much more physical runner. He's a power runner. He moves the pile. And they're really good in the run game. Another team that uses motion really well. You see Jaden Reed in the backfield. All different kinds of motions. It's all designed to impact run support, to get second level defenders to play with their eyes incorrectly. They had 42 rushes last week. They had 22 rushes by backs in the first half last week against the 49ers. So yes, they can run the ball. And I think the running game as a whole, you know, there's a number of teams playing really well where the run game is clearly the foundation. It doesn't mean the quarterback's not important, but teams are playing much more. Out of 12 personnel with two tight ends running the football, Jacobs is clearly the kind of back that you can give the ball as you say, 20 plus times a game.

[Greg Cosell]

I want to talk about the Eagles, who since the bye week have become very efficient, got a much greater sort of identity and now they face Baltimore. Now, the Ravens defense can be physical, but on the back end it's susceptible to getting burned. And with AJ Brown and devontae Smith, this feels like personnel wise. It's a good matchup for Philly against the Ravens. What do you expect their offense to do against Baltimore?

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Yeah, it's an interesting game because Baltimore's strength on defense, which is stopping the run, is exactly what Philly's identity is. Philly has developed a clear identity. They're a run first offense and they are a defensive team now. So that's what they are. They don't really ask. Jalen hurts in the past game to do an awful lot and Hertz's way of playing really fast fits what they are because he's kind of risk averse. He doesn't force the ball. We know that his legs are a factor both by design and as a scrambler and he doesn't turn it over. So when you can run the ball really well and they wear you down with the run game, they don't score a lot of points early, they wear you down and their defense has become really, really good. But they're playing a team that normally stops the run very well. So we'll see how Philly chooses to come out this week.

[Greg Cosell]

Yeah, I gotta tell you, I loved Arizona against Seattle. Off a bye week, they're playing well.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Yep.

[Greg Cosell]

Seattle fundamentally took them out of their offense. What did you see from Kyler Murray? I mean, off a buy with that collection of talent. What did you see from Kyler's performance?

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

It wasn't really Kyler. I mean, I think to me Kyler is almost the same every week. He's kind of a maybe yes, maybe no guy. If he can make some plays outside of structure, which he can do any given week, then he can have a big week. But he's going to always be a little inconsistent as a pocket player because there's just certain things he can't see. But they got killed with their offensive line versus the Seahawks D line. Leonard Williams had as good a game this past week as any D lineman I've seen this year. And they just dominated, physically dominated the Cards o line up front. So that was really, to me, what the game was about. Because the Cards in some ways are like the Eagles. They have to be able to run the ball and they could not run the ball at all. And they gave up on it really early in a game that was really never out of hand, score wise until what, the fourth quarter. They just, they didn't have early success running the ball and their OC just totally abandoned the run game and they have to be able to run the ball with Connor and Benson.

[Jon Stewart]

One more herd. The herd streams 24 hours a day, seven days a week within the iHeartRadio app search heard to listen live or on demand whenever you'd like.

[Mark Cuban]

Catch Jon Stewart back in action on the Daily show and in your ears with the Daily Show Ears Edition podcast. From his hilarious satirical takes on today's politics and entertainment to the unique voices of correspondents and contributors, it's your perfect companion to stay on top of what's happening now. Plus, you'll get special content just for podcast listeners, like in depth interviews and a roundup of the week's top headlines. Listen on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Greg Cosell]

It's very rare when you have a quarterback that should be in the running for the mvp and yet you can't win games. That's the Cincinnati Bengals. The last three weeks. The last three weeks they're just humming what are the mo. Is it, is it the return of T. Higgins? What are the moves they've made? Offensively, it doesn't seem like anybody matches up well.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

No, I mean, I think Burrow, you could argue he's playing the best quarterback in the league. And we know Burrow's a really good player. He just has such a really, such a good feel for the pocket. He understands how to move in the pocket. He understands when pocket movement is required versus getting out of the pocket. He's been accurate throwing the football. T. Higgins is back now, so they've got two quality wideouts. Chase is obviously just really, really good. He's a top three receiver in the league. So you're just dealing with a really efficient pass offense. And Chase Brown's been running the ball effectively. He gives them just enough in the run game that it's not just throw ball the entire game. Their defense has really been poor this year and it's made every game a shootout. And it's just hard to win those games week in and week out. But Joe Burrow is playing at a really high level.

[Greg Cosell]

I want to, I want to end with this. I said Daniel Jones will never be a great quarterback, but he could be the best backup in the league. He just went to a situation when your talent is somewhat limited. You need a Better fit. Caleb Williams will be spectacular and they can't get the coaching right. But when you're kind of a guy, Andy Dalton certainly capable, but you're not a spectacular. You don't. You don't erase mistakes of your coaching staff. Could Daniel Jones go to Minnesota and could we see how much more of an elevate. And this is nothing against Dabol, but the old line was bad. They didn't have a number one receiver, they didn't have a tight end. They let Saquon go. He had nothing to work with. He's not that kind of player. Now he's got Justin Jefferson, Jordan Addison, a left tackle, a run game, tight ends. How good can Daniel Jones be with the right elements? Because I've seen Sam Darnold shock most people in the league.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Yeah, I mean my sense with Jones and I've always felt this and it just never worked with the Giants for the reasons you just laid out is I always felt he could be a good ball distributor in the right situation. And he needs what you said, which most quarterbacks do, by the way. There's not 20 quarterbacks in the league that are transcendent that can just dominate games. What's going to be really interesting there is the way Darnold's playing. Let's assume playoffs. I'd have to believe they'd think about signing Sam Darnold. And then Daniel Jones comes in. What do they do next year? They have J.J. mcCarthy. But I agree with you about Jones in that I think with a running game, with a solid O line, with quality receivers, a system that's really good at presenting defined reads and throws, that he could be an efficient player who could run your offense effectively.

[Greg Cosell]

Yeah, he's a big kid that moves well. I mean, that's some of it. We like size. He moves well. He's a little mechanical.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Good arm.

[Greg Cosell]

Yeah, he's a little mechanical. It's not a pretty. The aesthetic isn't great. You know, there's just certain guys like Mahomes where it's just. He just flows. It's just, you know, he's like water. He just finds the opening. Daniel's a bit more mechanical.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Yeah, Mechanical isn't necessarily an issue. Depending on what you mean by that. Because you could argue Jared Goff's a little mechanical too. But it, you know, when you have a good system and a lot of things and you. And you're a really good thrower as Goff is. You've been watching him for years. I'm sure since he was in High school and college, I mean, that can all work.

[Greg Cosell]

Yeah, they say that about Justin Herbert sometimes. That was the knockout of Oregon. He was a bit mechanical. So to your point, you know, you get the ball out quick to the right people in the right spot, it doesn't matter what you are, you can win a lot of games doing it that way.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

No, you're right.

[Greg Cosell]

That's right.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

You're exactly right.

[Greg Cosell]

Greg Cosell, happy Thanksgiving to you and the family. Greg, as always. Thanks.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

You too, Colin. Appreciate it. Thank you.

[Greg Cosell]

Don't forget, J. Mac's picks are around the corner. But first, J. Mac with the news.

[Anna]

No, no, no, no. Turn on the news.

[Jon Stewart]

This is the Herdline news.

[Joy Taylor]

Well, let's start with Jimmy Johnson's take on Travis Hunter earlier. He's the best player in college football. Many would agree. Yeah, Jimmy was talking about both sides of the football. However, there's an award called the Thorp, given to the best defensive back in the country. Yeah, Travis Hunter was not one of the three finalists, Colin. And Coach prime, he was not thrilled.

[Anna]

How is Travis Hunter snubbed by the Jim Thorpe Award? You can have my award. You can have it back. Matter of fact, I'm going to give him mine. I ain't using it just sitting up there collecting dust. So Travis could have my Thorpe Award because if this ain't the most idiotic thing in college football that he's not a finalist for the Jim Thorpe Award, he rarely gets thrown at. He's won a game for tackling for us and he's always on point. They just pretty much messed up all the integrity of the award. And he could have mine.

[Greg Cosell]

Yeah, I mean it's, it's, you know, I'll say this. College awards, the Heisman's regional. He's the best player in college football. That I would say he's the best. Best athlete. Best player in college football.

[Joy Taylor]

Best athlete. I can give you best player. How are you, how are you quantifying that?

[Greg Cosell]

When I, when I watch him play, he's way faster than everybody else.

[Joy Taylor]

So it's speed.

[Greg Cosell]

He's just got dexterity. He can do different things. He's just a world class athlete. Everybody, he'd start for every team in the league somewhere. Every team in the NFL, every single team in the Shadour. Sanders isn't starting for every team. Cam Ward's not starting for every team. Travis Hunter is the only guy in this draft. I do think Kelvin Banks, the offensive tackle for Texas, would start for almost every team. There's Mason Graham, a defensive Tackle for Michigan.

[Joy Taylor]

He's good.

[Greg Cosell]

He gonna start for almost every team. I think it's about seven guys that would start for every single team. But Travis is a. Would be the best athlete on almost every team he played for immediately. I think he's that good.

[Joy Taylor]

He would be the best athlete on almost any team in the NFL.

[Greg Cosell]

Derwin James came out. Derwin James came out of Florida State to the Chargers. He was the best athlete by. On the Chargers and in. And I. You could argue, immediately a top five athlete in the league. He was that good at. Out of. Out of Florida State. Oh, Derwin James was unbelievable.

[Joy Taylor]

But come on, we need to pump the brakes on this, all right? I mean, like, obviously a tremendous athlete, yes, but better than any player in the NFL.

[Greg Cosell]

Who's the best athlete right now in the league?

[Joy Taylor]

Jeez, where do you even begin?

[Greg Cosell]

That's right. That's what I'm saying. There isn't one. There isn't one guy. You're like, oh, that's the best athlete.

[Joy Taylor]

But what matters most, an athlete. Like, is it like Saquon Barkley leaping backwards over someone? Does that make the best athlete?

[Greg Cosell]

He's one of the better ones.

[Joy Taylor]

I mean, what about the kid on the Cowboys, Turpin? Who. Who's. Who is one of the fastest guys the NFL's ever seen?

[Greg Cosell]

Well, I think Jalen Johnson for Chicago, Justin Jefferson, Jamar Chase, a lot of the perimeter guys could play basketball and beat.

[Joy Taylor]

So basically, you're into speed. Okay, I see.

[Greg Cosell]

Well, I like speed.

[Joy Taylor]

So that's why you like me, because I'm super fast.

[Greg Cosell]

I like speed. And length. Girth? Depends. Jalen Carter's great, but he's not one of the best athletes.

[Joy Taylor]

That's what she said. Okay, moving on. Let's go. Colin, your boy, Bo Nicks. How good has Bo Nicks been? Oh, my gosh. Obviously, we have to give a lot of credit to Sean Payton and his coaching, but Bo Nicks is giving credit to one guy on the Broncos. You wouldn't expect Cortland Sutton.

[Bo Nix]

He's just reliable. He's just always there where you need him. And he's smart, he's savvy, makes plays when the ball's in the air. You can trust him because when it's up in the air, it's his or nobody's. You know, it's not gonna be a pick. Then, you know, he goes for two touchdowns. That just kind of speaks for, you know, what he means to our team.

[Greg Cosell]

Bo Nicks.

[Joy Taylor]

Yeah. Your guy.

[Greg Cosell]

Yeah.

[Joy Taylor]

By the way, you could Be honest. Do you text Bo Nicks?

[Greg Cosell]

I don't like to bother players during the season.

[Joy Taylor]

Fair enough.

[Greg Cosell]

Coaches all bother.

[Joy Taylor]

He's gonna have a tough assignment. Cortland Sutton this weekend.

[Greg Cosell]

Cleveland.

[Joy Taylor]

Denzel Ward. Hello. One of the best athletes in the AFC North.

[Greg Cosell]

Now, that's one of those. Good. He's a great athlete. He is.

[Joy Taylor]

Avoid confession.

[Greg Cosell]

When he's healthy, he's a great athlete.

[Joy Taylor]

Pickens, all the other Steelers.

[Greg Cosell]

Tyreek Hill.

[Joy Taylor]

Tyreek Hill. Yeah.

[Greg Cosell]

Pickens. Steelers up there.

[Joy Taylor]

There's a lot of guys. Come on. Kyle Hamilton of the race. I mean, I could name 50 million. Anyways, let's get to the final story. The Kansas City Chiefs, they want they. We have a cool sound bite here. So Travis Kelce was talking about Josh Allen. Remember the Josh Allen touchdown run to beat the Chiefs? Well, Travis Kelce went on his podcast and he said he knew that Josh Allen would go Superman in that exact moment.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Give me a B or C. I'm.

[Joy Taylor]

Saying Josh Allen is doing something with his feet.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Greg Cosell]

That's fair.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Josh Allen, I mean, they were on quarterback power. They were like, yeah, they put it in Superman's hands.

[Anna]

Yeah.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

You know, no doubt.

[Greg Cosell]

Yeah, he is great.

[Joy Taylor]

Pretty good.

[Greg Cosell]

If you didn't know the results. You were just told that Mahomes and Josh Allen are both great. That's all. You knew and you did a redraft. I contend everybody would take Josh Allen. You didn't know they. Who'd want Super Bowls. You were just told they both end up being great. Josh is bigger, stronger, faster.

[Joy Taylor]

That's a good take. Are we sure he's faster than Mahomes? Mahomes is kind of quick.

[Greg Cosell]

He's got that dad mod.

[Joy Taylor]

He does. But it's interesting because Allen's done it with different offensive coordinators. They've had a lot of change there. Patrick Mahomes has had Andy Reid the whole time. You know, that's interesting. What would like. Like, if you flip them Mahomes to the Bills and Josh Allen to the.

[Greg Cosell]

Chiefs, you'd have Josh Allen with Super Bowls totally dominant. Well, I mean, Mahomes may be good enough to get one in Buffalo. I think Mahomes is better, but I think Josh is. Really?

[Joy Taylor]

Yeah. Like, I mean, you could do that all day. Dan. Can you imagine Dan Marino with Bill Walsh?

[Greg Cosell]

Dan Marino had Don Shulen, couldn't win one. Yeah. Don't tell me.

[Joy Taylor]

I don't think Don Shul is a offensive mind in the.

[Greg Cosell]

Bill Walsh, the winningest coach in league history.

[Joy Taylor]

He is one of the. He's amazing. But I mean, Bill Walsh offensive, like.

[Greg Cosell]

Arguably the greatest offense got to one super bowl with at the time the best coach in football. Maybe it's a little on Dan Marino. Oh, well, I mean, I mean Dan Marino had a little. Aaron Rodgers, he didn't like a lot of motion. He liked to just walk up to the line, see it and go. Which, you know, I guess man to man, that's fine. But when the league got more into zone, that's a different ballgame.

[Joy Taylor]

This is what I like about our banter. Like I can basically throw anything at you and you'll have a take and, and I'm ready to discuss it with you. Like the Dan Marino thing just came out organically.

[Greg Cosell]

Well, no Dan Marino, when the league was all man to man. Dan Marino. But once the league got into zone, you need motion. You need things that a quarterback sees. I've heard this from other people. Marino's a little like Aaron Rodgers. I don't want any motion. I go to the line. Let me see the defense. Well, Dan Marino and Aaron Rodgers are Super bowl trophy light. Whereas Brady was like motion, give me more motion. Peyton Manning, give me more motion. Andrew Luck, give me more motion. Mahomes, give me more motion. Marino didn't like all that motion. He just wanted to walk up and use his arm and it cost him. And Aaron Rodgers, I don't like a lot of motion and it's cost him.

[Joy Taylor]

So how do you handle, to go back to Mahomes Allen, how do you handle that discussion then?

[Greg Cosell]

Because, well, when Dan was.

[Joy Taylor]

You're essentially saying Josh Allen is better than Mahomes. Mahomes is just one more.

[Greg Cosell]

I'm saying, traits, I'm saying if you were told, I mean, Josh Allen was viewed when he got drafted as a top 10 quarterback prospect all time. Elway 1, Peyton Manning, 3 or 4. He was viewed as a top 10 all time prospect. 6. 6. Fast, huge arm. There was nothing about him. Nice kid, coachable. I mean everybody loved everything. He was just a. His accuracy was wild.

[Joy Taylor]

Right.

[Greg Cosell]

But I mean, Mahomes didn't have a winning record in college.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

He was.

[Joy Taylor]

Yeah. Losing record. And not to go off on a tangent, but listening to the Josh Allen rant. So Justin Herbert is almost the same size as Josh Allen, but he's not.

[Greg Cosell]

As fluid an athlete. He's not as good an athlete.

[Joy Taylor]

Oh, I don't know, man. Justin Herbert's like a gazelle in the open field.

[Greg Cosell]

He's not as fluid. He's a little bit more mechanical.

[Joy Taylor]

40 times during the commercial break but. And Herbert has no accuracy questions.

[Anna]

No.

[Joy Taylor]

But I don't know why Herbert's not.

[Greg Cosell]

A lot of people like TUA over Herbert. A lot. A lot of lot of scouts.

[Joy Taylor]

We can roll the tape. You want to go back to 20 whatever year it was.

[Greg Cosell]

I know. I'm just telling you there's no way.

[Joy Taylor]

You were on tua. And I'll never forget. I got to give you credit. You watched that or the Rose Bowl.

[Greg Cosell]

Yeah.

[Joy Taylor]

And I think you called me in the fourth quarter and you were like, holy hell, Justin Herbert, look at this guy. I was like, yeah, that's not the Herbert we saw all season. I'll never forget that call because I was like, this guy could be something big in the NFL. That was like the moment that Rose bowl game.

[Greg Cosell]

C.J. stroud against Georgia, running and scrambling. It's like I haven't seen that all year. J. Mac's picks coming up. J. Mac with the news.

[Jon Stewart]

Well, that's the news and thanks for stopping by the herd lie news.

[Greg Cosell]

All right, his picks next.

[Jon Stewart]

Be sure to catch live editions of the Herd, weekdays at noon Eastern, 9am Pacific.

[Mark Cuban]

Jon Stewart is back at the Daily show and he's bringing his signature wit and insight straight to your ears with the Daily Show Ears Edition podcast. Dive into John's unique take on the biggest topics in politics, entertainment, sports and more. Joined by the sharp voices of the show's correspondents and contributors. And with extended interviews and and exclusive weekly headline roundups, this podcast gives you content you won't find anywhere else. Ready to laugh and stay informed, listen on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Joy Taylor]

Make sure you play this week's Fox Super 6, sponsored by DraftKings. Go to the Fox Sports app and enter for a free chance to win cash prizes.

[Greg Cosell]

Well, this is the time of the when all of you, if you have an extra $10, 15, $20, you should tune in to FS1 in the herd because our your ability, your laser focus, your X ray vision that can see into matchup advantages is something to behold. Are you ready?

[Joy Taylor]

Certainly.

[Greg Cosell]

We call it tomorrow's headlines today. What's going to be the headline? Bears at the Detroit Lions tomorrow.

[Joy Taylor]

So I thought this was a slam dunk instantly. Love one side and Colin, within the last hour I'm look at this line. It's down to nine and a half. Who are these people betting on? The Bears? The headline will be you ain't seen stuffing yet. Bears get casserole. Look at my man Jared goff I got a lot of notes here, Colin, but the number one thing is, remember, the number one seed in the NFC is huge this year. Detroit indoors or Philadelphia outdoors. I think that would be a huge advantage for Philly. So Detroit's got to keep winning. They keep their foot on the gas. You know, something like the Chiefs, they're known to take their foot off the gas, maybe run a little more. Detroit, they don't hold back. They're putting 50 burgers on you. And I do believe that there is something to this whole. Man, Dan Campbell and Jared Goff haven't won together on Thanksgiving. Goff looking for a redemption after last year's game against the Packers. And I think they kind of put it on Caleb Williams here. Now, one interesting subplot is Caleb Williams has done great against zone defense this year against man much or I'm sorry, the opposite. He's dominated man, struggled against zone. Well, the Lions are tinkering. They've been switching since Aiden Hutchison. So I think there'll be a little surprise for Caleb Williams. Is it going to be man, are they going to do zone? And I think Detroit kind of hammers them here. I think they lower the boom 35, 13ish. Lions.

[Greg Cosell]

I don't disagree. Tomorrow's headlines today, Dolphins at the Green Bay Packers. Hmm.

[Joy Taylor]

Yeah. Cold weather. Check. Outdoors, check. Things are lining up for one side. The headline will be pecaroni and cheese fins. Just a side dish. Listen, I know everybody thinks, oh, Green Bay is going to walk over this. This could be competitive. Green Bay has. They have not been the team we thought they'd be. Right? We thought maybe super bowl sleeper from the packers and they kind of just slept walk through the season up and down a little bit. But Miami has turned it around the last three weeks since TUA got back. Let's. Let's go over them. They beat the Rams out here in la. That was a mysterious game. The Rams were just clunky. And then they beat the Raiders and they beat the Patriots. So they're beating a couple bad teams and The Rams are under.500. So is that that impressive from Miami? I think Green Bay is in a spot where they think maybe if the Lions slip up, could we catch them. And that's why compounded with the weather and to his struggles in cold that we know. I like the packers here now it's three, but at three and a half, I don't know. That hook is dangerous. But we both. I think the Packers, Jordan Love, remember, popped last year on Thanksgiving. Now this is A night game and probably, what, 30 million people watching. Jordan Love. I think he's back, baby.

[Greg Cosell]

Tomorrow's headlines today, Raiders, Chiefs, Raiders kind of look beat up and exhausted and not ready to compete.

[Joy Taylor]

My worst pick of the year last year was the Chiefs on Christmas Day against the Raiders, where the Raiders beat them. Let's see what happens on Black Friday. The headlines will be sack Friday, Sales Raiders flattened when doors open. The Raiders just announced here in the last 10 minutes that Aiden O'Connell will be starting. The mighty Aiden O'Connell coming off the injury. He's gonna be starting and I checked the temperatures. We're in the 30s on Black Friday. Aiden O'Connell going outdoors, immobile.

[Greg Cosell]

Aiden O'Connell.

[Joy Taylor]

Yes. And Kansas City gets back my main man, Isaiah Pacheco, one of my favorite running backs in the league. Colin, listen, he has another dimension to this offense because he catches passes out of the backfield. Kareem Hunt, he was okay at that, but he's a little older. I just. I don't see it with the Raiders. They're starting, I think Amir Abdullah. What is he, like 37 at running back? Not a lot of options for the Raiders. I like the Chiefs here big.

[Greg Cosell]

This is an interesting one. Next. Tomorrow's headlines. Today, Seattle look great. Now they go to Aaron and the jets, who are swimming and nonsense. Yeah, what say you? It's on Fox.

[Joy Taylor]

I noticed you kind of laid off a little bit of the Aaron Rodgers because there's a lot of noise this week. It's almost like you're over it. You're kind of sick of them. The headline will be cran buried. Jets get lost in the sauce. Listen, I'm a Jets guy. You guys know that. I think this is the first time I picked against them, maybe all season. You followed this story. Aaron Rodgers just keeps talking. This is the guy who in the off season was like, hey, we just go, we want to keep it on football. Keep that crap out of the building. He's going interviews all the time. Well, I don't know if I'm going to play next year. If I do play, it's probably with the Jets. This is all we've heard for the jets in the last two weeks. And it's like, dude, what are we doing here? The defense has clearly quit on Olbrecht. They're not really tackling well. And now you got a Seahawks team that's starting to peak. They put Arizona down pretty well last week after the win over San Fran and I talked about it. They're going with the single High safety taking away the run. You take away Breece hall and now Aaron Rodgers has to beat those tough corners. Witherspoon, the other guy whose name I'm spacing on, who's incredible. I don't see how the jets compete here. Would not surprise me if this were 2811 and the jets got embarrassed. And you know the stuff swirling around Rogers is not good. Colin, I think the Seahawks live to win that NFC west division.

[Greg Cosell]

Finally, tomorrow's headlines. Today, Texans, Jaguars in jville. This, this screams J. Mac. You love those AFC South, NFC south battles.

[Joy Taylor]

I also enjoy, enjoy our discussions about who's the next Jaguars coach. That's fun. But for this one the headline will be Happy Thanksgiving. Jags grateful for picks. Yeah, I'm on Houston here. Houston has lost three or four. They did beat Dallas. Yeah, but and I noted it last week when I like the Titans. So they had three prime time games in a row. It was the jets, the Lions and the Cowboys. That's, it's a lot of prime time games are totally different than Sunday 1pm so then it was a little come down for the Titans. I see a big bounce back here. So C.J. stroud will absolutely eviscerate zone defenses. Yes. And in the earlier meeting against Jacksonville, 345 yards passing, two touchdowns. He didn't have Mixon. Mixon's now back and Mixon's off his worst game of the season, 22 yards against the Titans. We know Stroud's offensive line's been bad, Colin. I like to look at pressure rates. Jags ranked 31st in the league in pressure rate. They do not get at the quarterback. Stroud's going to have a clean pocket. Laramie Tunsled, no penalties. I think Houston says, guys, guys, we're not bad. We are a team. We can get this going. And I think the Texans kind of claw back and beat down.

[Greg Cosell]

That was my second favorite pick on the board.

[Joy Taylor]

Well, Trevor Lawrence, it looks like he may go. He's touching. We'll see. They haven't announced it officially. That would be a big get back. But why, why would they play him if he's hurt and they're trying to tank?

[Greg Cosell]

Listen to this. Brock Purdy of the Niners limited at practice today. Nick Bosa, Trent Williams did not practice.

[Joy Taylor]

I had to leave the Bills out. The Bills, they're going to crush the 49ers here. You know, San Fran spirits are down. Well.

[Greg Cosell]

And Brock Purdy now limited at practice. A shoulder issue for a guy that didn't have a big Arm to begin with. Now he's got a throwing shoulder two.

[Joy Taylor]

Months away from getting a massive contract. Colin, is he risking that shoulder like a further injury surgery? He's not getting paid.

[Greg Cosell]

If he has, you're paying him big money. Is that your thing?

[Joy Taylor]

Well, I mean, I'm not gonna pay a big money. I think we could talk him into a Baker Mayfield ish type contract. I don't know if he would like that, but. Hey, Brock, do you want to have Debo and Kittle and what's the market? Huh? What's the market for him if they drop Purdy?

[Greg Cosell]

What's the market? I don't know.

[Joy Taylor]

I mean, it's more robust than Sam Darnold, that's for sure.

[Greg Cosell]

No.

[Joy Taylor]

Oh, come on.

[Greg Cosell]

Sam's bigger, stronger athlete, better arm.

[Joy Taylor]

We have like five years of Sam Darnold. He's got one good year with Kevin O'Connell. Rock Purdy, genius with Kyle Shanahan, small, hurt again. You're just obsessed with, like, can a guy throw the football out of the stadium? That's like your.

[Greg Cosell]

Well, I. I like Brock, but you have. You have categorized him into the Lamar two years of you saying Josh Mahomes Purdy mvp. He's not that.

[Joy Taylor]

Well, the numbers backed me up.

[Greg Cosell]

Yeah, but numbers. Stats lie a lot. There's a lot of stats. Obviously, Darnold is getting Sam like Gardner Minshew with Shane Steichen and Jonathan Taylor and Michael Pittman. That's not who he is. He's much closer to the Raiders version. So you can have the like Sam Darnold right now. Is he this good? Well, history tells you he's got a perfect two receivers, corner, great coach. I mean, so if you're the Raiders.

[Joy Taylor]

And you're picking eighth, you would take Darnold over Purdy? If they both wanted the exact same.

[Greg Cosell]

Contract, I think I'd take Darnold. I think he's a bigger, stronger professional athlete with a bigger arm.

[Joy Taylor]

I know a lot of people like him. I would take Purdy.

[Greg Cosell]

I'm not outraged by it. Not outraged? You don't get everybody. Be safe tonight. It's a night. Crazies are out. Moderation. Stay home, hang out. I'm partnering with PayPal this Black Friday. Why settle for just one deal when you can stack them with the PayPal debit card, earn 5% cash back on up to a thousand dollars of monthly purchases in the category you choose. Apparel, health, groceries, beauty, or new for the holidays?

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Tech.

[Greg Cosell]

Yeah, Tech don't just pay PayPal. Terms and limits apply. See [e-mail] rewardspal. This card is issued by the Bancorp Bank N.A. pursuant to a license by MasterCard International Incorporated and may be used everywhere MasterCard is accepted.

[Jeremy Hobson]

We live in a divided country. I am a lifelong Republican with all kinds of different people.

[Greg Cosell]

You know, I'm a mother. I'm a grandmother.

[Jeremy Hobson]

And every week on the Middle with Jeremy Hobson podcast, we bring them all together with an all star panel. Mark Cuban, so great to have you on the Middle.

[Joy Taylor]

Thanks for having me.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Jeremy.

[Jeremy Hobson]

Neal, degrasse Tyson, welcome to the Middle.

[Mark Cuban]

Thanks for having me.

[Jeremy Hobson]

And listen not to the extremes, but to the people who want to meet in the middle.

[Joy Taylor]

Anna, I'm calling from Las Vegas.

[Jeremy Hobson]

Listen to the Middle with Jeremy Hobson on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.