Sharp or Square - Legend of Larry Bird: From Indiana State to NBA Glory with Keith O'Brien

Summary

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Sharp or Square: Legend of Larry Bird — From Indiana State to NBA Glory

Podcast: The Herd with Colin Cowherd (Sharp or Square segment)
Episode Date: March 6, 2026
Host: Chad Millman with Simon Hunter
Guest: Keith O’Brien, author of Heartland: Forgotten Place, an Impossible Dream, and the Miracle of Larry Bird

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Episode Overview

This episode delves into the extraordinary, unlikely rise of Larry Bird, centered on his senior year at Indiana State and culminating with his legendary 1979 NCAA Finals showdown against Magic Johnson. Author and journalist Keith O’Brien joins Chad Millman and Simon Hunter to unpack his new book Heartland, which aims to reframe the Larry Bird story, focusing on Bird’s underdog journey, the miracle Indiana State team, and the broader context of college basketball’s evolution. The conversation covers the social circumstances of the late 1970s, the uniqueness of Bird’s path, the process of reporting and writing compelling sports-history books, and deeper insights into Bird's complex personality.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Why Larry Bird, Why Now?

[12:01 – 15:10]

• Reframing the Narrative: Keith O’Brien argues that most tellings of the Larry Bird story focus too much on the Bird-Magic rivalry, diluting Bird’s personal triumph and the underdog quality of the Indiana State team.
  • “We've been telling the Larry Bird story wrong all these years... This is one of the great underdog stories of the past 50 years. There is a real reality... where we never know Larry Bird's name.” — Keith O’Brien [12:20]
• Bird’s Unlikely Rise: The story captures the improbability that Bird, coming from French Lick, Indiana, leads an unfancied, small school to an undefeated season and the national finals—a feat rarely possible in today’s college basketball landscape given NIL transfers and media scrutiny.

2. Miracle Team: Indiana State 1979

[15:10 – 19:19]

• Unprecedented Underdogs: Indiana State wasn’t expected to impact their own conference, let alone the nation; their coach Bill Hodges took over just days before the season due to illness.
• Red Auerbach’s Gamble: The Celtics drafted Bird a year before he left college, betting on his unique character and skills, despite prevailing doubts.
  • “Auerbach says... Time moves faster than people think. And folks are going to kick themselves a year from now.” — Keith O’Brien [16:33]
• No Modern Comparison: O’Brien compares the magic of Indiana State 1979 only to Cinderella stories like the 2010 Butler run—though acknowledges the two can’t truly be equated.

3. Book Reporting Process: French Lick & Small-Town Intimacy

[25:51 – 34:31]

• Immersive Research: O’Brien details his anxiety and determination landing in French Lick, having to “become a presence” by staying in town, frequenting bars, and letting locals warm up.
  • “Once I was there, boots on the ground, in the library, in the local archives, hanging out at the American Legion bar at night... I became a presence.” — Keith O’Brien [26:29]
• Reporting Wisdom: The value of serendipity, librarians, and persistence—examples include gaining trust at a local bar after initial wariness.
• Authorial Anxiety: Chad relates, describing “book brain”—a mental state where family and daily life fade behind the mental workload of writing a big nonfiction book.

4. Larry Bird’s Personality: The Dualities of a Legend

[34:33 – 43:13]

• Cold-Blooded Killer & Sensitive Soul: Bird’s image as an NBA trash talker is true, but O'Brien emphasizes his deep sensitivities and insecurities—especially as a small-town kid thrust onto a huge stage.
  • “He absolutely had confidence in himself... But he was also a sensitive young man. He bristled at people who did and said small things that rubbed him the wrong way.” — Keith O’Brien [35:30]
• Early Struggles at Indiana: Bird was not a first-team all-state high schooler, felt slighted and overwhelmed at Indiana University, and left within weeks—a foundational moment.

5. Bird’s Privacy, Trauma, and Modern Fame

[42:22 – 46:40]

• Hidden Pasts: Bird’s early family trauma (father’s suicide, early marriage) was known locally but not scrutinized nationally until his breakthrough. O'Brien contrasts this with modern media attention.
• Media Reticence: Bird's discomfort with exposure would have made him uniquely challenged as a star in the social media era.
  • “He isn’t on social media. And based on the people that I’ve interviewed... Larry doesn’t care what people are saying... I think there’s something admirable about that.” — Keith O’Brien [45:58]

6. More on the Book and Bird’s Elusiveness

[46:40 – 50:53]

• Genesis of the Project: O’Brien’s own Midwestern roots and interest in regionally resonant, untold stories inspired the book, with a particularly cinematic scene after the NCAA finals serving as a hook.
• Did Bird Cooperate? O’Brien tried—cordially rejected. Despite being declined interviews with Bird himself, O'Brien gained deep access to Bird’s circle and local sources, resulting in a multi-faceted biographical portrait.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Historical Context:
  • “If you ask ChatGPT... the Larry Bird-Magic Johnson finals gets the same billing as Three Mile island, invention of the spreadsheet and the Israel, Egypt historic peace accords.” — Chad Millman [10:47]
• On Book Research:
  • “Once I was there, boots on the ground... I became someone. Now I’m getting access to folks who’ve never talked before about Larry Bird.” — Keith O’Brien [26:29]
• On Bird’s Core Nature:
  • “You know those TikToks and those memes, they're accurate. They capture who Larry Bird was...a killer. But...he was also a sensitive young man.” — Keith O’Brien [35:21]
• On Bird and Modern Fame:
  • “He doesn’t engage. He isn’t on social media...Larry doesn’t care what people are saying...something admirable about that.” — Keith O’Brien [45:58]
• On Authorial Anxiety:
  • “There’s only one thing you’re thinking about all the time, and it’s the book.” — Chad Millman [30:25]

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Timestamps for Key Sections

• Background banter, introduction: 00:00 – 05:00
• Larry Bird book preamble and historical context: 08:46 – 11:16
• Why now, reframing Bird’s story: 12:01 – 15:10
• Miracle Indiana State run, Red Auerbach’s gamble: 15:10 – 19:19
• The inside of French Lick, book research process: 25:51 – 34:31
• Bird’s psychological profile and early challenges: 34:33 – 43:13
• Bird’s privacy, handling of trauma, and modern fame: 42:22 – 46:40
• Book genesis and Bird’s elusiveness: 46:40 – 50:53

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Tone & Style

The episode is thoughtful, inquisitive, and laced with the kind of storytelling and sports nerd energy typical of The Herd's deeper dives. The hosts are candid about their own anxieties around the creative process, while O’Brien is generous with detail and openly reflective about his reporting approach and the emotional landscape of his subject.

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Final Thoughts

Heartland and this conversation offer not just a fresh take on Bird’s Cinderella story, but also insight into the vanishing world of small-town legend-making, the complexities beneath sports mythologies, and the demanding realities of investigative nonfiction. A must-listen (and must-read) for any fan of sports history or compelling narrative journalism.

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Transcript

[Danielle Robay]

This is an iHeart podcast.

[iHeart Podcast Announcer]

Guaranteed Human.

[Chad Millman]

Welcome to Sharp or Square, presented by Hard Rock Vet. We are part of the Voluum podcast network. This is the show that makes the squares sharper and makes the wise guys pay attention all year long. I am Chad Millman. I am joined, as always by my bff, my companion, my compadre, my co host, professional better Simon Hunter. Hello, Simon.

[Simon Hunter]

Chad. It's always fun hearing from just new fans in general, but especially ones that who just joined this year. They really haven't heard our after football type of shows. Oh, yeah, the feedback is always hilarious from different people. Obviously, you know, some people love us, some people hate us. The biggest one was, is this Chad for the whole off season. And I said to people, I don't know if Chad is always going to have such great stories like that, right? Like, that was. You had a. You had a buildup of really good stories. You had to get them all out on one show. But yeah, I said, chad, Chad's gonna talk about Chad and tell some stories in the office. That's what, that's what we're doing here, people. But, yeah, I thought that was very funny from hearing from a lot of people where they're like, yeah, during the season. I get it. It's like you guys are just doing quick stories and stuff. But Chad was really, really on one last, last show. And I was like, yeah, that's. That's all season Chad.

[Chad Millman]

That is so funny. I can't tell. Is this Chad for the whole off season? Is that like, oh, my God, he's insufferable, or, oh, my God, he's living some crazy life. And I can't believe we get to hear these stories. Like, what exactly is the. Is the context for. For, oh, my God, is this Chad off season?

[Simon Hunter]

I think a little bit of both. I agree. It's more so of. I think people in shock of what your life is like right now. They're like, I can't believe Chad's traveling around doing all this cool stuff. He's writing a pretty sweet book. He's got some cool connections. Chad's living the good life. So I just thought it was funny. You just came out the gate firing. So I, I got. As soon as I got a couple of messages, I was like, okay, I wasn't the only one that was like, what's going on right now? Chad is on one today.

[Chad Millman]

That is so funny. I was also, you know, I wasn't recording from my normal home environment. And, you know, Mitchell knows. I actually, I don't like going anywhere. And it just so happens that the first two months of this year I have, no joke, been traveling literally every single week. I've been on planes for eight straight weeks. Ten different cities, you know, God knows how many states just because of the book and because of Indiana and because of All Star and some other consulting work I'm doing. And like, so it's just been a crazy, crazy few months with a lot.

[Simon Hunter]

They are the cool stuff run. Chad, you really are, you're. I don't know if you're peaking right now in life, but you, you had a crazy, crazy run there of going to pretty sweet events.

[Chad Millman]

Oh my God, dude, it was freaking wild. Between the Indiana stuff and then, you know, going to Philly to see my kid for dinner, going to D.C. to see the Wizards and the Lakers, going to spend super bowl with this guy as a market maker on couchy for the book. Like super exciting. But you know, real quick on that

[Simon Hunter]

before we go into the show. What do you think of Nevada banning? Is it. I think they've been calci. Right.

[Chad Millman]

Well, look, I think, I think we're going to get very, very deep into all this and every day it feels like there is more news around the prediction markets and what's happening with legal sports betting on a state by state basis and what, what the legal operators are doing. You know, we've seen in the last week DraftKings stock has dropped precipitously. Jason Robbins has been trying to explain it. Jason Robbins is talking about the stock getting killed and that the market cap for his company is actually smaller than what the valuation is for companies like polymarket and Kalshi. So when he's asked if they would want to buy him, he's pretty honest. Like the valuations for these makes them too high for us to acquire right now. But look, this business is in chaos right now and because the prediction markets have, have sort of decided they are going to do what Facebook did 20 years ago and Uber did 10 years ago and just start doing whatever they want to do. And either the courts will eventually stop them or everyone else will decide this is how business is going to operate and this is what the new opportunity is and they'll be way ahead of it. It's, it's a fascinating time. I'm enjoying doing the book because of, because of all that. And you and I, you know, and Mitchell, we've talked about, we are going to get into the conversation around these. We're going to have on more experts. We're going to Talk about is this betting, is this not betting, how can people participate, all those kinds of things? I think everyone sort of needs to be informed about and educated about what these are and why they're good, why they're bad, what the benefits of the online operators are, all those kinds of things. So it's going to be crazy. It's crazy.

[Simon Hunter]

I'm hoping Kelsey does what they should do and they should put up on their site. Will we exist in five years and you let people bet on it? And I, I just, I was just wondering your first opinion on it because I don't know if this is the first, you know, start of it. Right. Is this the crack in the ice here where that is the first state to back their, their gambling companies and their casinos?

[Chad Millman]

And Dan, I think it's, I think it's an all or nothing proposition.

[Simon Hunter]

Interesting. Okay.

[Chad Millman]

I think, I think the prediction markets will exist. Will they exist with sports is another question. And the real question is it's 2026. In, in May of 2018, the Supreme Court repealed the Professional Amateur Sports Protection Act, AKA paspa, and allowed every state to decide if they wanted to legalize sports betting, whether through voter referendums, whether through the state legislature enacting new laws. Whatever the case may be, this is a right leaning conservative Supreme Court. It was a right leaning conservative Supreme Court in 2018. The reason why proponents of legalized betting and people who wanted PASPA overturned by believed they would get the right to offer legalized sports betting in their state is because states rights is a conservative issue. They believe in the ability of the state to decide their own opportunities and their own future more than they believe in the federal government. What's interesting and this just happened is the cftc, the Commodities Futures Trading Commission has now come out and said federal authorities should supersede state authority that are trying to block Kalshi from being able to operate in their states where sports betting is legal. So now you've got a conservative executive branch and a conservative Supreme Court that may be on a collision course because what the conservative executive branch and the CFTC is saying does not align with the states rights principles of, you know, of historic conservative theology on this topic. It's fascinating and that's exactly where it's going to end up. And by the way, the person who wrote the decision to overturn PASPA was Samuel Alito who was one of the most conservative of all the justices on the Supreme Court. So obviously I'm in it and we're going to dig deeper. It's Part of the book that I'm writing. Speaking of books, this guy has become one of my favorite authors the past couple years, since we had him on a couple years ago. And he wrote that great book about Pete Rose that was a New York Times bestseller that landed exactly as the conversation around sports betting was becoming huge with the Dodgers scandal. He is a New York Times bestselling author. His most recent book digs deep on the defining year in the life of an NBA player who went on to define a generation. I'm talking about Keith o'.

[Keith O'Brien]

Brien.

[Chad Millman]

His new book out this week is titled Heartland, Forgotten An Impossible Dream and the Miracle of Larry Bird. A little bit of preamble here. This is mostly about Bird. Senior season at Indiana State in 1979 culminated in the NCAA Finals against Magic Johnson and Michigan State. This created the modern version of March Madness that we all love today. I want to put in context. I always love doing this. I love books like this because, you know, I'm a sucker for, like, narrative historical nonfiction. And that's what this book is. And it's brilliant. I've read it. It's great. Keith's an amazing writer and reporter, but what's fun about these books is they put so much in context. And so I like to look back and see, like, what else mattered at the time and how important was this moment in that era. So on the same day as that Magic and Bird NCAA finals, Egypt and Israel signed a historic peace treaty. Same day, two days later, Three Mile Island. Simon, do you know what Three Mile island is?

[Simon Hunter]

Nope.

[Chad Millman]

Jesus Christ. Three Mile island was a nuclear reactor in Pennsylvania.

[Simon Hunter]

Oh, yes, yes, yes. I thought you were talking basketball terms.

[Chad Millman]

No, no, no. It melted down.

[Simon Hunter]

I do. I'm not that young.

[Chad Millman]

Okay, so that has set off a 50 year debate about the safety of nuclear energy that still exists today. Also very important for gamblers. Very, very important. Did you know March of 1979, the spreadsheet was invented? What would you be doing today without the spreadsheet? Simon be lost.

[Simon Hunter]

It's the cheat code.

[Chad Millman]

You'd be on an abacus. So all the reason I use all these reference points is because if you ask ChatGPT, which I did for the most important moments In March of 1979, the Larry Bird Magic Johnson finals gets the same billing as Three Mile island, invention of the spreadsheet and the Israel, Egypt historic peace accords. Keith o'. Brien. After all that, welcome back to the show, brother.

[Keith O'Brien]

Wow, what an intro. I love it. I love it. Chad. Thanks so much, guys. Great to be Back with you.

[Chad Millman]

We do our homework here.

[Keith O'Brien]

You do.

[Chad Millman]

We're not just going to have you come on. Talk about the book as if we don't know what we're asking you. We want people to buy the freaking book. We want to see your Amazon sales rankings jump after this show airs. We want like NPR level influence on the bookselling community because we are the most literate sports betting podcast in America.

[Keith O'Brien]

That's right. I love all of that. I mean, listen, you guys move lines, right? You move the spread. You talk about it all the time. Let's move the line on this. I like it. I like it.

[Chad Millman]

That's what we're here for. So very first question, given everything I just set up. Give me the hook, give me the why now for a book about Larry Bird? 1979, Indiana State,

[Keith O'Brien]

really a few reasons. First, I think we've been telling the Larry Bird story wrong all these years. Yeah, you know, the Bird Magic game is critical. It's everything in late March 1979. And for that reason, over the years, almost every writer who's come to this story ends up doing the Bird Magic story. You know, they pile them in together and they do that sing song narrative. And, you know, I get why they do that as a storyteller. But when you do that, you end up diluting the stories of both men. And you particularly end up end up diluting the story of Larry Bird. I mean, this is one of the great underdog stories of the past 50 years. There is a real reality that I'm sure we'll discuss here today where we never know Larry Bird's name, where he doesn't get out of French Slick, where he doesn't become a star. That's a real scenario. The fact that Indiana State was there is an impossibility. So the whole thing is just impossible. And so what I wanted to do with this book is really just sort of do something that storytellers often do is that tilt the camera just a little bit differently away from Bird and Magic and directly on Bird and that Indiana State team. And the reason why I think that team is interesting, and this is the second reason why I think the book matters, is that I just think it's highly unlikely that we're going to see something like that again today in the era of name, image and likeness money. You know, Larry Bird was a senior at Indiana State when they finally broke through. I mean, think about that for a second. It's not like he shows up and they're suddenly great. He doesn't even play on national TV for the first time until about three weeks before his final basketball game. You know, NBC is late to the party here. Everybody is. They've never played on national tv. They've never made the NCAA tournament, you know, and because of that, you know, they're just not getting the coverage during that time. And so, you know, Larry Bird really explodes onto the scene late, you know, and becomes a phenomenon with this underdog team. And, you know, in these days, a young Larry Bird, who had a fantastic opening season in Terre haute, Indiana, averaging 30 points a game, would have left and would have signed with Purdue or Duke or North Carolina or Indiana for like, you know, 3, 4, 5 million dollars money that Indiana State doesn't have. So, you know, I think it's a story that paints a picture of a time and place that we're just not going to see again.

[Simon Hunter]

Can you put into, like, you know, context of just what a miracle of a team that, you know, Indiana State team was, and, you know, someone like me, that's not from that era, the jerseys, to me, when I watch back in the day, that's the coolest part of it, watching Larry with the hair, with the jerseys. I mean, as someone that loves vintage basketball, I've watched tons and tons of clips. And you're right. I mean, those. That's. It's like a miracle team when you think about it. And I just would love to know, in your opinion, what are the comps two teams today?

[Keith O'Brien]

So, you know, the 78, 79 season, that's the miracle year, right? The year before was the year that people thought something might happen. Larry Bird appears on the COVID of Sports Illustrated In November of 77, his first sports Illustrated cover. It's an iconic cover. Almost 50 years later, people know this cover. And they're ranked. Indiana State is in preseason polls, and they flame out. They flame out. They start out 13. Oh, they hit a rough patch. They can't get out of it. They're not a real team. They don't really get along. It's a classic story of too many people wanting the ball, not letting Larry do Larry. And. And they don't make the NCAA tournament. They don't go anywhere. You know, entering that next year, his senior year, Bird could have left. He could have gone to the Celtics. He's been drafted already. You know, in those times, an NBA team held your rights for a year whether you left school or not. And Red Auerbach, you know, makes. Makes a bet on Larry Bird. You know, he. The Celtics that year have two picks in the top 10, which they never did in those days. And he decides he's going to burn one on this Larry Bird guy out of Terre Haute. Even though Auerbach knows that Bird's not leaving, he's made it known he's not leaving school. And Auerbach says something that I think is fascinating. It's a fascinating quote for life, for business, for sports, for everything. You know, when he drafts Bird, a lot of people are perplexed, you know, why would you do this? We've never seen this guy. He's never played anybody. Is he really good? And he's not even coming here. Why would we do this? And Auerbach says, time. I'm paraphrasing here. Time moves faster than people think. And folks are going to kick themselves a year from now. And he's right. Entering that season, nobody's talking about Indiana State. It's the opposite of the year before. They're not ranked. They're picked to finish third or fourth in their own conference, which is the Missouri Valley Conference. It was nothing in those days. We're talking about Drake, Tulsa, et cetera, and nobody's talking about him. And then four days before practices begin, the head coach of Indiana State falls ill. He nearly dies. And as a result, they have to scramble. And they decide to appoint as head coach this man who had recruited Bird. Found him on the brink of nothing. And in French Lick a few years earlier, a man named Bill Hodges. So it's a total mess. No one cares. And it's just one of those classic stories where it doesn't really matter about the talent in the room. It matters. Do the guys get along? Do they understand their roles? Are they happy to be there? Are they ready to work? Are they fighting for something? And, you know, that's what fuels this epic season. 33, 0 entering that final game. It's incredible. So to your question, Simon, is there a comp today? I mean, really. No, there isn't. And I know we're going to talk about Indiana football maybe in a second here, but to me, the closest comp would be like, Butler Bulldogs 2010. You know, the Gordon Hayward, Sheldon Mack, you know, Brad Stevens, eight seed out of nowhere, nearly, nearly beats Duke. That, to me, is the closest comp in modern times.

[Chad Millman]

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[Chad Millman]

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[Alec Baldwin]

Hi, it's Alec Baldwin. This season on my podcast, here's the thing. I'm speaking with more artists, policymakers, and performers like composer Mark Shaiman.

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[Keith O'Brien]

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[Chad Millman]

Like I said, I've read the book, and it's amazing because of the reporting threads that you bring together and how you lay out this miracle of a season doesn't happen unless there are seven, eight, nine different Circumstances that come together, including Bill Hodges being a dogged recruiter and having a great eye for talent, and then ultimately getting that job from the coach who probably would not have managed the team in the same way because he had done badly the year before with an incredible group of talent and sort of, for a variety of reasons, missed lost the plot on what that team could be. There's the story of one of the players who had nearly lost his arm in, like, a combine thresher farming accident. And like other players who had transferred in and out and come back, really amazing stories, and the reporting is brilliant. Put me in the scene. Like, when you're on the ground in French Lick, what are you seeing? What's catching your eye about the circumstances that allowed someone like Larry Bird to become Larry Bird?

[Keith O'Brien]

Well, you know, you know the deal, Chad. When you're reporting a book, when you're going somewhere, it's often for very specific reasons. You're flying there to meet with someone or meet with these four or five people over the course of a number of days. And, you know, there was. There was some of that, you know, with. With this. With this book, of course. But one thing I learned about French Lick very early on is I could get people's phone numbers. I could know that those phone numbers were right. I could be texting and leaving voicemails, and people just weren't calling me back, by and large. And so what I did initially was just go to French Lick, book a room at the Best Western on the edge of town, plan to spend four days there with no real idea of how I was feeling that time. Exactly. And then once I was coming, texting, and calling the people who were not calling me back and saying, I will be there Monday through Thursday, next week. I will meet you anywhere, anytime. And that, honestly, was a huge breakthrough. Once I was there, boots on the ground, in the library, in the local archives, hanging out at the American Legion bar at night, which I did. I became a presence. I became someone. And, you know, now I'm getting access to folks who've never talked before about Larry Bird. People have known him their whole lives, so that was crucial. But, you know, one thing I do with a narrative book like this is, you know, when you go to a place, I want to see the places that I'm writing about. So I'm going to the grave site of Larry Bird's father, which is on a hill in Dubois county, just south of French Lick. I'm going to a bar called Butchies in Dubois, you know, where Larry would hang out in the 80s in order to get away from the tourists and the fans who might drift down to French Lick to see him. You know, I'm going to the little mansion. And I say little mansion because it's not really a mansion that Larry builds initially for his mother in West Baden Springs, just north of French Lick after he signs with the Celtics. You know, I'm standing in that driveway. I'm standing on the cracked, you know, basketball court that Larry poured down in a grove of trees there and would famously play Magic Johnson on that court for a converse commercial in 1985. You know, I want to see these places. I want to describe what it looks like if the sun is rising. You know, I want to describe the cracks in the pavement. You. You know, so, you know, that's the kind of stuff I'm doing when I'm on the ground.

[Chad Millman]

I mean, that I'm sick to my stomach and filled with anxiety thinking about landing in a place like French Lick, or as I've done in other places, and not really knowing what you're going to get, not knowing if anyone is going to talk to you. This is very inside book writing, but I also think it's relevant for broader context when talking about just how to get shit done. When you land on the ground and you're in French Lick and you're in that Best Western, are you, like, immediately getting out on the town, trying to be at the bars, at the restaurants, wherever? Are you texting people? Like, how are you making yourself a presence? And how anxious are you that, holy shit, I signed a book deal, I got to deliver this book and nobody will talk to me?

[Keith O'Brien]

So true. I mean, let's talk about something that really matters to Chad here, Simon. The anxiety of having a book deal and not knowing where it's going. I mean, that is. That's some real. That's some real stuff, people. That's the real stuff. And your wife doesn't want to see you when you're in that place. Your kids don't want to see. The dog doesn't want to see you when you're in that place. It's all real. Right, Chad? Right. I'm talking real stuff.

[Chad Millman]

Here it is, dude. My wife and I were going on a trip a few weeks ago, and, you know, I haven't written a book in 15 years. And so she remembers sort of that I used to get what she calls book brain, where I'm usually a pretty. I am on the details, especially when it comes to organization, household systems, logistics. Truly annoying. And we were at an airport, sitting at a gate, and my name was announced over the loudspeaker because I left my bag in, like, where we had bought food before our flight. And I had been sitting at the gate for 45 minutes and didn't even notice my bag was gone. And she looked at me and she goes, oh, shit, I forgot about book brain. Like, you just, you're not present in anything. There's only one thing you're thinking about all the time, and it's the book.

[Keith O'Brien]

I mean, this is a story I'll tell here and only on this podcast, only for your listeners. I got two dogs. And you know, the dogs need to be walked during the day. And I work in a home office. You know, I'm lucky to be able to do that. And, you know, but, you know, when you're walking the dogs in the middle of the day, even sometimes when I'm listening to your podcast, while I'm doing it, I'm thinking about my book, or I'm thinking about the chapter I'm writing, or I'm thinking about the thing that hasn't. The tumbler that hasn't fallen through yet, right? And sometimes I'll actually curse out loud, not even knowing that I'm doing it. And my poor dog will sometimes turn around and be like, are you okay, buddy? Are you okay? This is the world we live in. But I mean, back to your question. I mean, I don't want to paint too dire of a portrait here. Certainly on that first trip to French Lick, there was a lot unknown. I did have a couple of footholds, you know, meetings I had set up. I wasn't coming in blind. I let the library and the librarian know I was coming. I wanted access to certain things that they had there and only there. Librarians are your friend, archivists are your friend. And I reach out to them like a lifeline in a book writing situation. But. But there certainly was anxiety. And I didn't even know, I mentioned a minute ago the American Legion bar in French. Like, I didn't know that existed. I didn't know that's where people hung out. But once I was in the library and I was doing the work there in the archive, in the back room, literally on the floor scanning documents. Very glamorous work. I asked the librarian, hey, where can I find this certain person? You know? And it was a person who was, you know, old timer knew Larry's dad had information, you know, that was maybe helpful for me. And she said, well, he usually hangs out at the American Legion bar. And I said, well, where's that? And what time do people go there? She said, well, the people are there now. It was like 4:30. And so, you know, I will remember, you know, pulling up outside the American Legion Bar, you know, this is me, right? This is who I am. And sitting outside in the car going, well, I'm going in, I guess I'm going in, right? And you know, it's one of those moments where you open the door to this small little bar and it's like a record scratch moment where literally everybody stops and turns around and is like, who is this guy? Right? I mean, French Lake is a town of about 2000 people, 1700 people. Everybody knows who hangs out at the American Legion Bar. I am not that person. And so it took me all of, from getting from the door to the bar 12 steps, where I had to start introducing myself because people are like, you don't belong here. But as soon as I said who I was and what I was working on, I mean, people were thrilled. They were thrilled that someone was there who was taking an interest and they were excited to talk. And I'll be honest, on every occasion that I've been back in French Lick for reporting, you know, I, I go to the American Legion Bar and, and now I don't go necessarily to do reporting. Although when you're there, you do meet people. I go, because when I walk in, they know me there now.

[Chad Millman]

Amazing.

[Simon Hunter]

Yeah, it's, you know, for someone like me, I, I think of Larry as someone that, you know, through Tick tock or Instagram, you just see clips and hear stories about players talking about them, right? That's the new generation. That's kind of our intro to Larry Bird, right? Just his whole complex being cold blooded, just, you know, a legendary killer. And when you talk about sports, you put him on the pedestal of a guy like Kobe where he's that same cold blooded type and you know, obviously you've dove into it. He's obviously a much more complex person. Obviously this, you know, people come off as a super confident dude that people are afraid of. I would just love you to explain what, what is his personality? Who is Larry Bird?

[Keith O'Brien]

Yeah, you know those tiktoks and those memes, you know, they're accurate. You know, they capture, they capture who Larry Bird was, especially as an NBA player. You know, once he got to the league and established himself there, that's really where he comes into his own as a trash talker and someone who was, to use your term, Simon, a Killer. But that was in him from the start. He had that in him all the way back at Springs Valley high school in 1973. 74. He has that in him, you know, when he shows up at Indiana State in the summer of 1975. But, you know, it's a bit of a shallow profile, I think, of this man. You know, he absolutely had confidence in himself. That was unshakable from the start. But he was also a sensitive young man. He bristled at people who did and said small things that rubbed him the wrong way. He was honest, admitting later that he would shut down if he felt someone had slighted him, wronged him. He, I think, struggled to play well with others and integrate well with others in situations where he felt uncomfortable. I think that is absolutely what happened in Bloomington at Indiana University in the late summer of 1974. As many of your listeners will know, Bird first signs with Bobby Knight at Indiana. And people hear that and think, well, he must have been somebody, he must have been great. That's not really true. Bird was not a first team all state player in Indiana in 1974. In fact, according to voters in Indiana that year, there were 15 players who were better than Larry Bird. He makes the state all star team, which is a big deal in Indiana, but he only really does so because a columnist in a little town in southern Indiana really advocates for him. And when he makes that team, he hardly plays, which, which infuriates him. And so when he shows up in Bloomington in late August, 74, he's not a big deal, he's not a big star. And that Indiana team is truly great. You know, they're going to win. They're going to have an undefeated season one year later without Larry. That's how good they are. And so when Larry shows up there, they don't care about him. You know, they treat him like every other freshman, especially a freshman from a little town and a little school that nobody's heard of. And, you know, I don't think anything nefarious happens while Larry's there in Bloomington for 23, 21 days. I just, I don't think he can handle that. Which is why he leaves and goes home.

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[Chad Millman]

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I think coming out of where I came from, I'm from the Bronx. I think I grew up really poor. I didn't know that then because I very much use my creativity to romanticize life. And I'm like, my mom did a really good job of like, you step back and you're like, whoa.

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I don't know how we made it. So a lot of my life was, like, built out of, like, survival to get to the next place. Like, my drive, my, like, tunnel vision of, like, I gotta be better, I gotta achieve this was off the strengths of, like, I want to make a better life for us.

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[Alec Baldwin]

Hi, it's Alec Baldwin. This season on my podcast, here's the thing, I'm speaking with more artists, policymakers, and performers like composer Marc Shaiman.

[Robbie Kaplan]

Once you've established that you have have the talent, it's about the hang. It's the pleasure of hanging out with the people that you're with. You know, Rob and I was always a great hang. We would sit in kibbutz for hours and then eventually get around to the music. That's what I mostly think of when I think of him. The time together.

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Laughing lawyer Robbie Kaplan.

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[Alec Baldwin]

Marriage equality.

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Yeah, Windsor's the perfect example.

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And journalist Chris Whipple.

[Keith O'Brien]

Every White House staffer, they work in a bubble called the West Wing, and it's exponentially more so in the Trump White House.

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Listen to the new season of here's the thing on the iHeartRadio app or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Danielle Robay]

Hi, I'm Danielle Robay, host of Bookmarked the podcast by Reese's Book Club. And this week we are talking about a monster, or maybe the woman who refused to be one. I'm sitting down with Maggie Gyllenhaal to unpack her new film the Bride. And trust me, this isn't your grandmother's Bride of Frankenstein. It's darker, smarter, sexier, a full reimagining of what happens when the monster gets a voice of her own.

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What I was more interested in was the monstrousness inside of each of us. You can spend your life running from those things, or you can turn around and shake hands with them. If I'm honest about that, and I tell my story about monsters really dealing in something truthful, and I do it

[Danielle Robay]

in a way that's pop, that's hot.

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That's like getting on a roller coaster. Will people respond?

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Listen to Bookmarked the Reese's Book Club podcast on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Chad Millman]

Do you feel like Larry Bird today? You mentioned the slights. You mentioned the sensitivities. He refused to speak to the media several times. You've mentioned his father a couple times. You know, his father committed suicide, and that was not something. And Larry Bird had a kid early in his life. I think it was 18, 19, and was married. These were things that were not well known, but reporters found them out and then wrote about them. How do you think a Larry Bird of today manages the storm of social media, of nonstop attention? Does Larry Bird have a chance to become Larry Bird under circumstances like today?

[Keith O'Brien]

You know, you're right, chad. In the 1970s, he had these secrets, if you will, you know, in his closet. And I want to be clear, right? I just wrote a book about Pete Rose, who had real problems in his past, you know, real controversies, lies about terrible things, Right? That is not the Larry Bird story. But he has these things. You know, you mentioned it. His father commits suicide. This is a real trauma. They don't use that word in 1975, but that's what that is, right? We know that now. It is a trauma. You know, he marries young, as a lot of, you know, kids from small towns did in the 1970s. That does not end well, you know, and, you know, the press in Terre Haute, you know, they know these stories in 75, 76, 77. They know them, and they don't write about them. You know, it's one of those classic things where the press knows things that they're not, you know, revealing to the fans, to the public, to the readers. But the moment that Larry hits the COVID of Sports Illustrated And November of 77, you know, he is now, you know, fair game, you know, to the national media. And, you know, it's a great story. There's a reason why Sports Illustrated is coming in eight weeks later to write a massive profile on him, because this is an impossible story. This never should have happened. But when they do show up, of course they want to do the kind of work that we do. You know, they want to tell his backstory. And, you know, I interviewed almost every reporter who crossed paths with Bird in a meaningful way in the 70s. I think talking to the media who cover someone is a really useful thing. And one of them was the sports illustrator writer that some of you will know. Certainly Chad, you'll know Larry Keith. Larry Keith, a longtime writer for Sports Illustrated. And, you know, Larry was a huge deal in 77, 78, one of the best writers in the country, big name. He shows up in Terre Haute in January of 78, and he makes a mistake. You know, he tells Bird that he's there to write us a profile of him and show that he's more than just a basketball player. And the moment that Keith says that, it's just like a light switch, you know, Bird goes dark, just shuts down. And so Keith has to do that week, sort of what I had to do in a lot of ways. You know, he's got to go interview everybody else about Larry. Okay, Larry's not going to talk to him, but he's got this job to do. What's. How's he going to tell this story? So he's talking to people in French Lick. He's, you know, the first who sort of breaks news about, you know, Larry's past. And, you know, in a lot of ways, Larry's grown up, and he said that himself. You know, he's matured, obviously, a lot. None of us are who we were when we were 18, 19 years old, you know, and Larry's done today what he wanted to do in 77, 78, 79, he's finally disappeared. He doesn't engage. He isn't on social media. And based on the people that I've interviewed, and I mean, his closest friends, people he's texting right now, Larry doesn't care what people are saying or doing about him. And I think there's something admirable about that.

[Chad Millman]

What I should have asked you this in the beginning. You told me the why, but how did you even come up with the idea?

[Keith O'Brien]

You know, I'd finished the Pete Rose book. I'd finished Charlie Hustle. It wasn't out yet. You know, and that's a time when you're dreaming up story ideas. You're dreaming up projects, possibilities. You know, I've got a list on the wall here of potential things that I might want to dig into. And, you know, I'm from the Midwest. I'm from Cincinnati. I spent a lot of time back there during the reporting of Charlie Hustle. And while that book was, in a lot of ways, is exactly like all my other books, it's narrative nonfiction. I'm not in it. It was more personal. You know, I was back in my home. I was almost writing a postcard, you know, from my past. And as I was doing that, I was just thinking about other Midwestern stories, and, you know, someone mentioned to me, oh, you should do, you know, a Larry Bird biography. And I was like, I don't want to do a Larry Bird biography. But, you know, I might be interested in just this little window of time, this Indiana State story. And so I just started noodling around on it. I went down the rabbit hole, and without giving away too much, there was a scene, a moment in late March 1979, after the bird Magic game, after this team, this miracle team, has returned to Terre Haute, returned home. That happens that when I read it, I couldn't believe it, and I thought it couldn't be right. It was just too amazing. It was too great. It was too cinematic. And once I stumbled onto that sort of ending, I almost worked in reverse.

[Simon Hunter]

Larry doesn't strike me as a guy that likes to even live in the past, let alone talk about the past. Did you have to reach out to him? A bunch of times. Did he ever respond?

[Keith O'Brien]

No.

[Simon Hunter]

Or just never respond. What was that whole interaction like?

[Keith O'Brien]

I did reach out to Larry, you know, I reached out through his proper channels, through his agents. I would say I made three or four official approaches, you know, and, you know, the initial approach was cordial and no. And it sort of unraveled from there, you know, And I don't know why. You know, I don't know why. This isn't a Pete Rose story, you know, where someone has real problems that they hid and lied about. You know, there didn't. I didn't understand at times, the resistance, you know, but once I was working, trying to get in through the front door, I was also trying to get in through the back door or the side door. You know, as I mentioned, you know, I got pretty close with Larry's closest friends, and I mean, the people he's in contact with right now, not Danny Ainge, not Kevin McHale, you know, but his friends, the people he hangs out with. Today, they sat down with me. They granted access to me long interviews. And so now I'm asking them, hey, can you please help me connect with Larry? And I want to do that, of course, for all the obvious reasons. But I've learned over the years through this project, the Charlie Hustle project and many others, that while it's always helpful, of course, to talk to the subject at the center of the story, you can sometimes get a more accurate portrait by talking to 12, 15, 25, 100 people who were watching the person at the center of the story. And in this case, Heartland is more than just a book about Larry Bird. It is a story of a team, a time, a place. Bill Hodges, Larry's roommates, Larry's teammates, this town. And so, you know, all of those people were speaking to me. And it was through those interviews that I was able to tell this story.

[Chad Millman]

Keith o', Brien, you nailed was fantastic. Great book. All the reporting comes out perfectly woven. Love the book. Heartland, Forgotten place, an impossible dream, and. And the miracle of Larry Bird. I mean, I think it's fair to say you're The Dostoevsky of 20th century sports nonfiction. If the Gambler was written today, you might be writing it. Keith o', Brien. I hope you sell a million copies, brother. A million.

[Keith O'Brien]

Thank you so much, Chad. Thank you, Simon. It was. It was so awesome to be back with you guys.

[Chad Millman]

This has been Sharper Square, part of the Volume Podcast Network. Watch or listen on YouTube at Sharper Square. Like the video. Subscribe. Subscribe to the channel. Download us from Spotify, Apple Pods, wherever you get your pods. Rate. Review. Subscribe. Leave us five stars. Say whatever you want. Feedback is a gift. Until next time. Love you.

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