Sharp or Square - NFL TRAINING CAMP QUESTIONS with Ben Solak of ESPN

Summary

Podcast Summary: Sharp or Square – NFL Training Camp Questions with Ben Solak of ESPN

Podcast: The Herd with Colin Cowherd
Date: July 21, 2026
Guests: Chad Millman (host), Simon Hunter (co-host), Ben Solak (ESPN NFL Analyst)

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Episode Overview

This episode of Sharp or Square dives deep into the most pressing NFL questions as training camps kick off for the 2026 season. Host Chad Millman, his betting-savvy co-host Simon Hunter, and guest Ben Solak from ESPN focus on analytics-driven team evaluations, evolving NFL trends, coaching changes, playoff dynamics, and betting angles as the preseason heats up. Their exchanges are rapid-fire, data-rich, and often peppered with humor and industry-insider perspective.

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Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. The Value of EPA & Analytics in Quarterback Play

[05:14] – [07:20]

• Ben Solak emphasizes that Expected Points Added (EPA) per dropback is his baseline stat for evaluating QBs, trumping raw totals like passing yards or completion percentage. EPA accounts for situational value and includes scramble production, a rising factor in modern QB play.
• Notable Quotes:
  • “EPA lets us adjust yards for context. We know that an eight-yard gain on 3rd and 5 is a lot more valuable than eight yards on 3rd and 10.” – Ben Solak [05:14]
  • “NFL analytics are a very slow-moving process…Never really going to happen in the league.” – Ben Solak [11:27]
• Takeaway: Analytics like EPA/success rate provide a better context for QB evaluation, capturing both consistency and explosiveness.

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2. Trends in NFL Defensive Schemes & the Scrambling QB

[09:23] – [11:27]

• Defensive Adaptation: Solak unpacks how defenses now engineer pass rushes expecting QBs to move, then containing or corralling rather than simply sacking them.
• Rising Use of Zone: Increase in scrambling QBs leads to more zone coverage, as zone defenders can more easily spy and react to QB mobility.
• Quote:
  • “We're going to try to flush him a certain direction and then we're going to be there waiting for him.” – Ben Solak [09:32]

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3. The Evolving Value of Defensive Tackles and Playmakers

[13:10] – [14:06]

• Simon Hunter & Ben Solak: Both underline that recent Super Bowl champions have been defined by elite interior D-line play, making DTs a premium position.
• Quote:
  • “If you're gonna play the run from too high and you’re playing light boxes and you don’t have dudes at Defensive Tackle, it's made up. That's not real.” – Ben Solak [13:11]
• Discussion: Addition of a star (e.g., Myles Garrett to Rams) is not just schematic but transformative; elite talent trumps style.

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4. Rams’ Defensive Transformation & Playoff Building

[14:06] – [15:43]

• Rams All-In Approach: GM Les Snead praised for aggressive moves, surrounding Aaron Donald and newcomers like Myles Garrett to create a “field-tipping” effect.
• Playoff Context: Ben Solak points out that depth, flexibility, and playmakers matter more than regular season stats in the playoff gauntlet.
• Quotes:
  • “Styles make fights until Myles Garrett. At which point, screw the style...Elite talent is elite talent and 23 sacks is 23 sacks.” – Ben Solak [15:43]

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5. Cleveland Browns: Perpetual Offseason Curiosity

[19:53] – [24:24]

• Solak on Browns’ Outlook: Likes the coaching hires but is skeptical about their core talent (especially at QB/offensive tackle/WR). Details Deshaun Watson’s struggles and the risks in banking on rookies or Watson’s recovery.
• Quotes:
  • “The numbers on Deshaun Watson’s 2024 are historically bad...And then he's torn two Achilles since then.” – Ben Solak [21:16]
  • “You're going to struggle to get me on that train.” [21:16]
• Simon’s Optimism: “We’re two years early...if Watson can find it, the upside is massive.” [22:24]

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6. New England Patriots: Regression Alert?

[31:25] – [35:35]

• Millman’s Take: Fading the Patriots due to possible regression, OL uncertainties, and drama fallout.
• Solak’s Caution: Schedule is soft enough to temper a full fade. High on the power of head coach Vrabel and QB Drake May, but acknowledges health and O-line regression may bite.
• Quotes:
  • “There’s too much tent-pole power between Vrabel and May for me to be running to the under.” – Ben Solak [31:31]
  • “All the elements to be a 13-win team…It’s all on Drake May.” – Simon Hunter [35:35]
• Schedule Effects: Simon details the much tougher early and midseason slate, challenging the Pats' ease of 2025.

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7. The Analytics Revolution

[40:34] – [42:26]

• Solak’s Journey: Ben credits the development of advanced analytics for even having a career in football analysis, noting the leaps made from “just run the ball more” halftime takes to deep dives in data.
• Quote:
  • “For all five-foot-seven of Ben Solak to be sitting up there on an NFL set at ESPN...we have to have assumed the idea that people who didn’t play can know and explain a thing or two.” – Ben Solak [41:33]

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8. Chiefs: "Low Point" or Market Inefficiency?

[49:19] – [57:47]

• Cheap Mahomes Stock: Simon thinks Chiefs undervalued, best time to buy. Emphasizes Mahomes' competitive drive and Spagnuolo’s brilliance at maximizing defensive talent.
• Solak’s Counter: Sees a clear reload/youth movement; cautious about their lack of explosiveness and belief that Spags can keep “hitting” on cheap defensive talent. However, he won’t bet the under, not doubting Mahomes.
• Offensive Line Key: If OL gels, Mahomes' job may get easier, possibly reigniting offensive efficiency.
• Quotes:
  • “This is the cheapest we’ve been able to buy Pat stock...since his first year as a full-on starter.” – Simon Hunter [49:19]
  • “If you ask any Chiefs fan...they just immediately say, ‘Spags can do it with anyone.’ And yes, but…” – Ben Solak [52:14]
  • “I am like, if you made me write down what I hope the Chiefs achieved in the offseason and you made me see what they actually did, I’d be like, this is not the way I would’ve gone about this.” – Ben Solak [54:21]

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9. Rapid Fire: Hot Button Takes

[57:54] – [62:19]

• Jackson Dart/Cam Scadaboo (Giants RB Room): Solak is out on Scadaboo, still has some hope for Dart due to "professionalism."
  • “I’m 0% Scadaboo in best ball right now.” – Ben Solak [58:15]
• Ravens’ Future without John Harbaugh: Thinks subtraction of Harbaugh likely hurts stability more than it helps; worries about locker room handling adversity.
  • “Harbaugh had a really nice steady hand on the wheel… Ravens...are in a little bit of jeopardy of having a massive drama-filled season.” – Ben Solak [58:54]
• NFC North Order of Finish: Solak’s bold take: Bears, Vikings, Lions, Packers. Highest on Vikings’ preseason value, down on Packers’ offensive line/injuries.
  • “All I know is I’m on the Vikings at 5 to 1...Bears, Vikings, Lions, Packers, Bears.” – Ben Solak [60:00]
  • “This time next year, we’re going to be asking: Caleb [Williams] or Josh Allen?” – Ben Solak [61:01]

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On EPA & Scrambling:
  • “We’re taking sacks and low percentage throws off the board and replacing them...with actual gains.” – Ben Solak [06:44]
• On Rams’ Aggression:
  • “If you have a chance to get the best player in the world in his prime, you move mountains.” – Simon Hunter [13:50]
• On Browns’ Eternal Hype:
  • “I can’t believe I just heard the Browns Super Bowl odds mentioned unironically.” – Ben Solak [22:37]
• On Public Overreaction to Strength of Schedule:
  • “Last year, I’m getting texts from my mom about the Patriots’ strength of schedule...” – Ben Solak [36:14]
• On Hype Cycles:
  • “There’s been a lot of guys that have done really well for two days in pajamas. I’m done with the hype of the pajama party in May. We’ll find out in training camp who’s who.” – Ben Solak [63:23]

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Important Timestamps

• Intro & Show Start: [02:20]
• Evaluating QBs With EPA: [05:14]
• Defensive Trends & Scrambling QBs: [09:23]
• Defensive Tackle Value: [13:10]
• Rams’ Defensive Overhaul: [14:06]
• Cleveland Browns Discussion: [19:53]
• Patriots Regression Debate: [31:25]
• Analytics Revolution in Football: [40:34]
• Chiefs’ 2026 Outlook: [49:19]
• Rapid Fire – Rookies, Ravens, NFC North: [57:54]
• Closing Thoughts/Pajama Party: [63:23]

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Conclusion: Tone and Takeaways

Sharp or Square maintains a lively, smart, and occasionally irreverent tone—never shying away from challenging consensus (on “patriotic” Patriot beliefs, overhyped Browns optimism, or the Chiefs’ alleged decline). Ben Solak’s arrival adds true analytical heft, not just with stats but nuanced analysis on team dynamics, infrastructure, and league-wide trends. The episode is a must-listen (or read!) for anyone prepping for the NFL betting season or seeking to go beyond the standard hot takes as training camps get underway.

Transcript

[Tarika Foster Brasby]

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[Ben Solak]

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[Ben Solak]

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[Chad Millman]

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[Sheryl Swoopes]

C terms.

[Rebecca Nagle]

150 years ago, they were hunting us

[Ben Solak]

down to kill us.

[Rebecca Nagle]

And now they're hunting down immigrants to deport them.

[Narrator / Podcast Promos]

This is First America, the true story of how the United States came to be and how we got to this present moment. Listen to First America on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Tarika Foster Brasby]

Hey everybody, I'm Tareka Foster Brasby. What's up, y'? All? I'm your girl, Sheryl Swoops. When you tune in to a new episode of our podcast, Levels to this, you're definitely gonna get some spy, cw, NBA Analysis. But we're more than just hoops and the real conversation is what we actually bring.

[Sheryl Swoopes]

It's been really, really cool seeing kind of these women just really step into their power off the court and understand that they are basketball, right? And they're not asking for permission.

[Tarika Foster Brasby]

Listen to Levels to this with Sheryl Swoopes and Tareka Foster brasby on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Mangesha Teegular]

I'm Mangesha Teegular and I'm back with a new season of my podcast, Skyline Drive. This time I talk to scientists, biopunks, curmudgeons, blue zoners, super seniors, and Goa's top cryotherapy lab to try to understand this obsession with living forever and what it means for all of us. And I get into a bit of trouble along the way.

[Chad Millman]

I'd say probably start bone smashing.

[Ben Solak]

That doesn't work.

[Tarika Foster Brasby]

To make it look more defined.

[Chad Millman]

They say it works.

[Sheryl Swoopes]

I don't know.

[Mangesha Teegular]

Listen to Skyline how to live Forever on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Chad Millman]

Welcome to Sharper Square, presented by Hard Rock Bat. We are part of the Volume Podcast Network. This is the show that makes the squares sharper and makes the wise guys pay attention. I am Chad Millman. I am joined as always by my co host, my bff, my companion, my compadre professional better Simon Hunter. Hello, Simon.

[Mangesha Teegular]

Chad.

[Simon Hunter]

We are in the true sports dead, period.

[Chad Millman]

I disagree. I completely disagree. Here's why everyone keeps saying that. True sports dead period. Look, there's plenty of baseball number one. I think there's a little bit of a sort of come down because the World cup was so enthralling. But training camps basically begin this week and starting today with this episode until after the Super Bowl. We are not talking about anything other than football. NFL football. We got rookies reporting this week. Camps for all 32 teams will be in full swing by this time next week. It's already been a wild NFL season. We've had free agent trauma. We've had blockbuster trades. The NFL calendar has kept us engaged since the Super Bowl. But now we only have to talk about the really good stuff on the field. So first time guest on the show. I think I name checked him more last year than any other analyst. I think it was down to him and Barnwell. We're going to talk about some of the biggest questions in the NFL season. He's celebrating two years as an NFL analyst at espn. Welcome to the show, Ben Solak.

[Ben Solak]

Thanks, Chad. Appreciate it, brother.

[Chad Millman]

Here's my first question for you. And Simon, I want you to answer this too. And I apologize to whoever wrote this or where I saw it. But Ben, maybe it was you. I was reading something about how coaches were breaking down quarterbacks. Maybe it was on ESPN.com and they were sort of ranking their quarterbacks. And someone wrote about how the coaches for the Seahawks were really analyzing success rate for Drake May heading into the Super Bowl. We use success rate a lot. You go deep into the analytics when you're thinking about quarterbacks. Is there a stat that is sort of your baseline barometer? I'm looking at this first.

[Ben Solak]

Yeah. It'll be EPA per drop back, typically. Right. And the number one thing that expected points per drop back is doing is basically just adjusting your yards per situation. Right. So if we look at, oh, passing yards, oh, completions. Right. We've all seen those games where you, you know, you're watching and this quarterback doesn't got it. He's not pushing the ball down the field. He's not creating, you know, first downs, not creating explosives. Then you check the statute after the game. He completed 65% of his passes for 220 yards. Like, where did this come from. And a lot of it is just eight yard pickups on third and 14 because, you know, Aiden O' Connell was getting the ball out quick. You're like, all right, yeah. But like, you know, defensively, structurally, like this is not, you know, the defense is fine with this, this allowing. And so EPA lets us adjust yards for context. We know that an eight yard gain on third and five is a lot more valuable than eight yard gain on third and ten. That's basically what it's telling us. The other thing that it catches is it catches scramble production, which is really important right in the modern NFL, which is any, you know, passing specific stat that you look at, you're going to be getting passing yardage. But we know that some of these guys are breaking the pocket 10%, 12%, 15% of the time for Jayden Daniels and your ability to scramble and when we go and we look back at historical numbers is massively, has been underrated for years. And the league is finally getting to the point where it's encouraging its quarterbacks to cross the line of scrimmage. Because it's not just that you're creating positive yardage, you're and you're, you're gaining, you know, ground, you're getting closer to a first down. It's the negative plays you eliminate when you scramble. Most plays that involve a scramble drill, if they're not ending in an actual scramble with the quarterback crosses the line, they're ending in a late down, high effort throw.

[Simon Hunter]

Right?

[Ben Solak]

So we're talking about like, you know, off schedule, throwing 40 yards down the field, the Caleb Williams stuff, or they're just ending in a sack or throwaway distinctly negative plays. And so we're taking sacks and low percentage throws off the board and replacing them not even with just like incompletions with actual gains. And so EPA is also catching scrambles, which is very valuable. So if you do EPA per drop back, which is just again contacts adjusted yards, and then if you do success rate, which is what percentage of your plays are positive, you're getting a pretty good look at how consistent is this guy success rate and then how explosive is this guy in terms of epa, that's going to give you a nice round look at generally how well quarterbacks have performed.

[Chad Millman]

Simon, what's your take on that?

[Simon Hunter]

I agree with it. I would say the big debate this offseason chat, a lot of the conversation is what did the Seahawks defense do so differently, made them so special? And it's all about that safety, right, coming down and the Safety either taking the tight end or going with the running back. It sounds simple, but I feel like 90 from the Conversation I've had this offseason is just about that adjustment in this league now of the tweeners, right. It's how can we change NFL? Because you saw the Rams, right, The Rams doing the double tight end sets. How often do we talk about that, Chad? I feel like every week we were getting obsessed about the change in NFL going to big package. But it's a big package where, you know, you still have these athletic tight ends that can burn these safeties. And I feel like that's really been a driving home point of these teams trying to figure out the tweener spot. So yeah, obviously EPA per play, huge, huge deal. And you know, I think we both went into the season last year thinking yes, the Seahawks could be a good defense. We didn't know they're going to be like that, Chad. We didn't know they're going to be a type of defense that was historical. So yeah, I, I would say a lot of conversations I've had this offseason is just what is going to be the future of defense because it's copycat league. We, we know that it's these teams last year copied the Eagles, right. They became run first teams. The Seahawks, Kenneth Walker, you know, you can say where they were a past heavy team to start the year. Yeah. Then Sam Darner started leading the league in turnovers and they became a runhevy team. That's not going to be, I think something that's going to go away anytime soon. I think the league's going to keep 10 turning, keep, you know, that trend of being a run heavy league. I think that's going to continue this upcoming season, Chad, honestly.

[Chad Millman]

All right, so Ben playing off that EPA for drop back. By the way, last year Drake May led the league in EPA for drop back. I was just looking that up. So can we expect defenses to do something that will make EPA per drop back a harder stat to be excellent at four quarterbacks since that's what Seattle seemed to be able to do as the playoffs went on?

[Ben Solak]

Yeah, it's a little bit right. Like you know, they're not going to do something to make you paper drop back worse. They might do things make quarterbacks worse than whether or not it gets right in the stat.

[Chad Millman]

Right.

[Ben Solak]

The first thing that immediately comes to mind is we have adjusted a lot of how we've rushed to the passer in the NFL as we've seen scramble rates leap right and back in the day, man, before those guys down get, you know, get into a gap, let's get up field, let's affect the pocket. It's Tom Brady, Peyton Manning, Drew Brees back there. These guys ain't moving right. We know where they're going to be and we know that if we get to them, we can pretty dramatically affect their game. Now when you see the best rushers, right, and kind of there's exceptions to every rule. You know, Jim Schwartz with the Browns was still doing the same old, same old 2025 is working pretty good. You know, there's exceptions to every rule. But in when you start thinking about your Brian Flores is and your Vance Josephs and some d' Amico Ryan's is some of these guys who've had extremely successful defenses and pressure rates over the last couple of years, we're talking about guys who build pass rushes such that we are expecting the quarterback to move. We're going to try to flush him a certain direction and then we're going to be there waiting for him. Right? The Rams before they had Garrett were they led the league in stunt rate. They're in more stunts on the defensive line than anybody in football. And they would use verse as just a wrecking ball, right versa like a top 10 pressure rate, bottom four sack rate. We're not trying to get sacks of Jared Verse. We're trying to break the integrity of the pocket. We're trying to fold and collapse one side of this pocket in so we know where the quarterback will flush and then we're going to have a looper follow him that way. We're going to have a blitzer follow him that way. He's going to be waiting for him. So the more you scramble, the less I'm going to build a traditional four man rush and the more I'm going to be oriented on expecting you to move and then containing you when we do. We also see things like zone coverage increase when we see more scrambling quarterbacks in the league because zone coverage plays with eyes on the quarterbacks. Once he breaks, I can see him as opposed to in man coverage, I have my eyes on the receiver. If that quarterback breaks the pocket, I don't know. And all of a sudden he's a cross line of scrimmage, is eight yards down the field before I realize anything happens. And so styles make fights and the league kind of operates on a pendulum, right? We are seeing right now so many, okay, Sean McVay inspired offenses, all this pre snap motion, all this, you know, the ball's getting snapped with two seconds left on the play clock.

[Chad Millman]

Right.

[Ben Solak]

Because the this pre snap operations take so much time. So then you have moments like the Broncos. So the Broncos are taking play calling away from Sean Payton, giving it to Davis Webb and what are they talking about? We want to be able to go faster. You want to be able to get line of scrimmage and snap it.

[Chad Millman]

Right.

[Ben Solak]

Think about what Brian Schottenheimer did for Dak this last year was so good. They were snapping the ball with like 12, 13 seconds left on the play clock. Because Dak doesn't need pre snap motion to undress the defense. He's been doing this for a decade. He's smart cookie. So okay, everybody's zig in this way. We're going to zag and we're going to be a team that just lines up. No motion snap the ball. Dax going to make you wrong post snap and you're not going to know when our snap is coming. Unlike when you play these, you know, Ben Johnson offenses and these Mikey Daniel offenses where you don't have to react to anything until it's like four seconds left on the play clock because all I can until you actually get down to brass tacks. So there's, there's styles that make fights and there's general trends in the league. Our hope is that our stats like ebay for drop back and success rate are good enough to kind of see the forest through the trees. But heck, you know, that's what we said about quarterback rating 10 years ago. And now we're not using that as much. We're using some of the other stuff. You know, NFL analytics are a very slow moving process as opposed to some other games where you feel like, you know, there were kind of these flashpoint moments where things got solved. Never really going to happen in the league.

[Simon Hunter]

To piggyback off of Ben just said Chad, it's something else. We talk about the D line. Think about the last two super bowl winners, how important their D tackles were, how that just disrupted anything any teams want to do. Having to inside guys dominant right now in the NFL. It's been changing everything. It doesn't really matter so much having a star name on the outside like it's you tell me the two best pastors on Seattle Seahawks. Most casual fans cannot because they were such a cohesive Unit and those 2D tackles to them were so important. Like they just the quickest point to the quarterback will always be up the middle. And you've seen this shift NFL once again.

[Narrator / Podcast Promos]

Yeah.

[Ben Solak]

If you're gonna play the run from too high and you're playing light boxes and you don't have dudes. A defensive tackle, it's made up. That's not real. That's not a world you can exist in. Right? So like it's, oh, we're going to live in a too high world. All right? You better have dudes between the tackles. Otherwise you can't win those extra gaps and that doesn't work.

[Chad Millman]

So then the Rams, you know, styles make fights. The Rams look at their opportunity to get Miles Garrett. Is that because they think they need it to fit the style and it just happens to be Myles Garrett or is Mild Garrett, Miles Garrett breaking the mold and they go to get him because it can completely change the dynamic of what they're doing. Simon, you start.

[Rebecca Nagle]

Yeah.

[Simon Hunter]

If you have a chance to get the best player in the world in his prime, you move mountains. And that's what they did. Like their whole defense, everything they did is super bowl, right? Get McDuffie. There's the, the moves they made this off season. I just. You can't get over how great of a GM less need is. Right?

[Chad Millman]

The.

[Simon Hunter]

We all know this, right? This is a guy that can totally revamp this team. Got rid of golf, went all in on Stafford and got his super bull ring. And then, you know, we, we joke. Chad, remember, they were six win team before the season. Me and you took the Rams over six wins. I think it was like three, four years ago. And you know, these people are like, well, they're done. This is going to be in between, period. Staff will probably retire in a year or two. Now here we are four years later. They are the odds on huge favorite and they have the MVP from last year, the defensive MVP and the Aaron Donald stuff. Everyone you talk to inside that building, it's not a foregone conclusion. He's coming back next week, but he. It's like a foreign conclusion. He'll be back this season. Like the way they're talking about, it's. It's all about Aaron getting his body right. So I, I keep talking to guys, other professionals, it's like, okay, even if he's not the number one D tackle in football, if he's number 11 or 12, you have the 12th best D tackle in football with Miles Garrett on the outside getting doubled. That means one of them is going to get singled up. I just, I still can't wrap my head around that he might actually be coming back. The boogeyman is coming back to football. So I, I Can't get over how this, this Rams team took their biggest weakness, which was that defense last year, that Sam Darnold playoff game. Chad me and you talked about that nauseam like that was, you know, unless he was in that box watching that game being like, okay, offense is good. This defense, this is a huge, huge problem. So I, I just love it so much because we, all we do is talk about Howie less need. My God, it's. Yeah, it's, it's his award to win this year, GM of the year. So it's, it's on the table for this team.

[Ben Solak]

Yeah, styles make fights until smiles Garrett. At which point they screw the style. You know, what are we talking about? Elite talent is elite talent and 23 sacks is 23 sacks. I, it's funny because I think that there's a, there's a diminishing returns nerd voice in my head that's like you were already a top 10 defense by DVOA. How much more additional kind of, you know, et cetera, whatever, whatever can you get? And then there's the reminder that playoff football is just so different than regular season football. We love our season long regular season stats. Oh, dvoa. The Rams are generally pretty good. You need to win three games in a row against elite teams. All three of those teams are going to look a little bit different. Actually. They're probably going to look really dramatically different. The league is decently varied in terms of how we're building things out. And we play best of ones in the league. We don't play best of sevens. You got a nice big healthy DVOA that other team doesn't, but you turn the ball over three times, you know, so you just need to have so many redundancies, so many answers when it comes to postseason football. Got to be able to play a dramatic different style of games. And you also have to have field tipping players. Right. The best way to win in the postseason is to have more guys than their math can figure out for you. Right? That was the thing about Mike McDonald. Not Super bowl run for the Seahawks is just that felt like every single game he was able to get enough of a solution, right. Make enough of the math work. The Rams, despite the skin of their teeth, but you know, they've been down that path a couple of times with them before. So you can feel at least confident you can get that win. And so yeah, Garrett, Trent, McDuffie, these are field tipping players and allow their bags to be a lot more deep on defense. Right? I said the Rams are Very heavy stunt team, very heavy zone team. So they kind of were their category. They were their nature, Right? Like, their corner play would get them in trouble against the Panthers multiple times. Because the Panthers have skyscrapers at receiver, right? And they just had Kobe Durant, who doesn't want to live through contact. Kobe Durant's an off cover, corner zone cover. He doesn't want to be in Trent McMillan, Ted Ron McMillan. Excuse me, his back pocket. Like, that's an uncomfortable spot for him. You have McDuff, you have Jalen Watson. You can play different modes and different styles. Now standing with Garrett in the rush. So it makes the Rams a lot deeper in the postseason. That means they're going by 10, means they're going to win by one, because that's the nature of NFL postseason games.

[Chad Millman]

Well, when you're thinking about postseason, that's a great point. Look, people right now might start thinking about betting futures, right? And Simon just said it. Rams are odds on favorites. And then it's going to be Seattle and then it's Buffalo and then it's Kansas City and it's going to be Philadelphia, and it's going to be all the same contenders. The Rams clearly subscribing to man beats style when man gets punched in the face by Miles Garrett. And also less need seeing his. His defense got a little. A little banged up as the playoffs went on. There was this great interview with Gray Zabel the other day. The Seahawks off.

[Ben Solak]

Yeah, Yeah, I saw this.

[Chad Millman]

Talking about how the Rams defensive line just got a little banged up and some guys couldn't finish the game. And so I can't remember the name of the D tackle who could be Turner. Kobe Turner.

[Ben Solak]

That's right.

[Chad Millman]

Yeah.

[Ben Solak]

There's nothing I love more than when, like, NFL, you know, they're talking to NFL players and they're like, man, Miles Garrett, do you know 100 Williams? And they're like, dude, Kobe Turner ruins me my life, dude. It's so like, it's in styles, make fights, Gray's, Abel's. Like, whatever it is that Kobe's doing, I'm not used to dealing with, and I don't like it. Like, every NFL player has one of those guys.

[Chad Millman]

I thought it was so charming. Like, he was so honest about this guy, just dominating him, and there's nothing he can do about it. And Les Knee is probably in the. In the press box, like in his suite, watching that and thinking, I got to get through three straight games. Who are my playmakers? That's a great point. Flip side, Cleveland Browns Got rid of Miles Garrett. They got a new coach. We don't know who their quarterback is going to be. They got like Kevin Stefanski. He's out. What do we think? Simon and I have been talking about the Cleveland Browns more than any team deserves to be talked about in an off season show in which they really have no reason to. We have no reason to believe they'll be impactful at all. But we can't quit the Cleveland Browns. Give us your take on the Cleveland Browns.

[Ben Solak]

Right. I like a lot of where they ended up coaching wise. I've always been a fan of Todd Monken. Monken does different things for different quarterbacks, different offensive systems. Like, you know, he's very, you know, coach to the players you've got, which is good. Mike Rutenberg there is the new DC for stepping in for Schwartz's shoes. An impossible job. There's nobody who's equipped to do that. If you made me tag one guy like Rutenberg is, is. He's the pass game coordinator with the Falcons. He's under Jeff Ulbricht and Robert Sala. He runs a very simple menu of coverages kind of the same way that Jim Schwartz did. You want to let our guys line up and play. They're oriented on a four man rush, oriented on speed, but they're willing to blitz a little bit. He's a really like dynamic, kind of impactful lightning rod sort of a guy, which I think if you have a criticism for Schwartz is that is very grumpy and, and, you know, kind of not really raw. Ross, this boom bond the guys. So Rudy will be good for the young guys. So there's I, I don't mind where they ended up from a coaching perspective. First thing I'm going to do when I'm figuring out if I want to put my horse behind a team preseason is I want to list out elite positions and take a look at where you're at. Right, quarterback, offensive tackle, wide receiver, edge corner. Right. Those are my elite spots. Let's see where you're at. Corner's nice. Everywhere else you got, you got to get me there.

[Chad Millman]

Right.

[Ben Solak]

I like a little bit of their depth on the defensive line. I've always liked Alex Wright, you know, who was kind of the running mate there for Garrett for a long time and now they adverse.

[Tarika Foster Brasby]

All right.

[Ben Solak]

I've always been a little bit lower than the market on Verse. Just because he's not a sack creator. He's a disruptor. But he's not going to get the quarterback down. You need somebody else to do that offensive tackle. You know, we've got the rookie and fauna, we got Titus Howard from the Texans. You're not going to get me there, wide receiver. I mean, I have not been there on Jerry Judy for 10 years now at this point. And I like both about Boston and Concepcion coming out of college. But again, we're kind of putting our horse behind rookies here. That's before we even get to quarterback, which, I mean, like, you know, the numbers on DeSean Watson's 2024 are historically bad. Out of like over 700 quarterbacks, he's 91st percentile, I should say, like adjusting net yards per drop back and explosive play rate and drop back success rate and everything. And then he's torn to Achilles since then. Right? That's what people forget. People think that he was bad off off the Achilles. No, no, he, he was bad then popped the Achilles, then couldn't come back because he popped the Achilles a second time. So it was between that or Shador Sanders. Like, I think that Stefanski did a much better job coloring in the margins of that offense last year than even people realize. And I'm not sure that even if I like Monk and what he's been for offensive, he's going to be able to do much of the same. So you can't, I don't know where you guys are at in the Browns. You're going to struggle to get me on that train.

[Simon Hunter]

We're two years early. I just love the way they, I, I just, I, I just love the way they've drafted. Our whole view is they're 201 for Super Bowl. If Watson can find what you just talked about, it's it what we think is totally gone.

[Ben Solak]

I can't believe I just heard the Brown super bowl odds mentioned unironically.

[Chad Millman]

And by the way, we've mentioned them. We've mentioned five times. I know we both.

[Ben Solak]

It can't be. This is the problem with, the problem with sports, man. You can't be doing this because if

[Simon Hunter]

you come to me you say, hey, you want to bet Eagles to beat the Browns at 301? I'm gonna take that bet. I can't help myself. The odds are too good. But I, I agree. It's. Yeah. The odds of the Browns obviously make it a runner so slim. I just can't get over how great of a drafting team they are right now. Like, you look at their, you look what they did last year and what they did this past draft and if these guys project out playing pretty well, the Browns could be an absolute juggernaut if they can find a cure. Quarterback and Deshaun Watson, if he's not the answer, I really think it's a perfect scenario for them. Like, you know, bring him in, bring in Sanders. Tough Division 3, 4 wins. That's if I'm a Browns fan. That's my dream right now. Because next year's draft class, I'm sure Ben knows you're really going to close your eyes and throw a dart. And it feels like one of those classes that if you hit big next year, you're going to hit on a franchise guy. And if you miss, dude, you're the Browns. You've missed every. I mean, Baker was your one hit and you freaking ran him out of town. So when I just look at that organization, it's just like I feel like in there in the can't lose position and their GMs kind of playing it that way where it's like he's taking these high risk in the draft and they're hitting, man, like these guys, he keeps taking that. You know, you might have some question about their character. Injury history. It's all looking good for me. So, yes, Chad, I think we're a year or two early here, but it's like our Carolina Panthers love. People thought we were crazy how much love. We love the Panthers. Look at us last year, dancing on everyone's graves. Chad. So it'll work out. It might just take a year or two.

[Ben Solak]

Respectable playoff loss, being flagged as a win. Unbelievable. Believable.

[Chad Millman]

I Simon, I wish we could do sort of dynasty drafts for futures bets and get. Get the Browns at 200 to 1 today because we know we're ahead of them and get that locked in for, you know, 2029. That would be it. That's.

[Ben Solak]

That's something market. Listening to this right now, right?

[Chad Millman]

I was gonna say that's a good idea.

[Simon Hunter]

I know a guy, Chad, that does take that kind of action if you want to get some money down on that.

[Chad Millman]

So I feel like you and I need to get a piece of that action. That's what we need to do. Let's do a quick word from Hard Rock. Maybe they can come up with that and get it posted before we get back on the other side. Today's show is brought to you by our presenting sponsor, Hard Rock BET Sportsbook. Some folks call this the slow period until football season. But on Hard Rock bat, we call it baseball season. There's a full slate almost every day to bet on building epic same game parlays. And you even live betting every inning. However you like to play ball, Hard Rock Bet has you covered. So if you're ready to step into the batter's box, sign up with Hard Rock Bet today and place a $5 bet. If it wins, you bet $150 in bonus bets on top of your winnings. That's right, an extra $150 in your account. Plus Hard Rock Bet gives you new promos every single day. We're talking no sweat bets, profit boost, bonus bets, and more. Open Hard Rock Bet now and see what you've got today. And sure, Hard Rock Bet is Florida's only legal sports book, but you don't have to be in Florida to join the party. Hard Rock Bet is also live in Arizona, Ohio, New Jersey, Indiana, Tennessee, Virginia, Illinois, Colorado and Michigan, with more states on the way. So download Hard Rock Bet and swing for the fences today. Payable and bonus bets not a cash offer offered by the Seminole Tribe of Florida Florida in Florida, offered by Seminole Hard Rock Digital, LLC and all other states must be 21 or over and physically present in Arizona, Colorado, Florida, Illinois, Indiana, Michigan, New Jersey, Ohio, Tennessee or Virginia. To play, terms and conditions apply. Concerned about gambling in Florida, call 1-833-Playwise in Indiana, if you or someone you know has a gambling problem and wants help, call 1-809-with it. In Arizona, Ohio and Virginia, call 1-800-my reset gambling problem, call 1-800- gambler in Colorado, Illinois, Michigan, New Jersey and Tennessee.

[Rebecca Nagle]

The Declaration, which is full of these beautifully rendered, you know, sentences and paragraphs about enlightenment ideals, does also have this darker history to it.

[Narrator / Podcast Promos]

Why is it important for the darker part of the Declaration of Independence and the American Revolution, why is it important that Americans know about it?

[Rebecca Nagle]

Well, if we don't understand the full context in which our nation was founded, we won't understand the full context in which our nation now finds itself.

[Narrator / Podcast Promos]

I'm Rebecca Nagle Gohin Dawadon Jalen citizen of Cherokee Nation.

[Ben Solak]

Are you guys big Chiefs fans? Hell yeah.

[Narrator / Podcast Promos]

This is First America, the true story of how the United States came to be and how we got to this present moment. Listen to First America on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Gary Valenciano]

We've all been there. We've had seasons that have shaken everything. The question is, what remains when the shaking stops? Hi, I'm Gary Valenciano, and on my podcast Unshaken with Gary Vee, I sit down with amazing personalities and we talk about the seasons that nearly broke them, the lows that carried them to their highs. Listen to Unshaken with Gary Vee on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Paul Verze]

Hey, guys, Paul Verze here, and I want to talk to you about Paul's best podcast, Will Ferrell's Big Money Players Network, and iHeartRadio. I sit down each week with a special guest, and we discuss the absolute best of things Davidson.

[Simon Hunter]

It's that, and then there's everything else.

[Paul Verze]

He would just shout one line.

[Ben Solak]

Yeah, it would murder.

[Chad Millman]

Marie lunch.

[Paul Verze]

Let's talk about the best moments that

[Chad Millman]

we had on the road.

[Paul Verze]

I would love a goddamn dude joker get last row, middle seat on a Southwest Airlines flight. Joe, how was your play?

[Chad Millman]

It was great.

[Paul Verze]

The guy in Penn State, we were on the field, and the player thought Joe was his former coach, and he hugged him, and he hugged him, and Joe just went with it.

[Chad Millman]

And the guy goes, what are you doing here, coach?

[Ben Solak]

And Joe just goes. And you walk in, and it is bananas. I mean, it's a feast for the eyes. And I was like.

[Rebecca Nagle]

It's like.

[Ben Solak]

It's not my thing either, but we're here.

[Paul Verze]

When in Rome, top athletes, chefs, musicians, everybody. Listen to Paul's best podcast on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Tarika Foster Brasby]

Hey, everybody. I'm Tareka Foster Brasby. What's up, y'?

[Chad Millman]

All?

[Tarika Foster Brasby]

I'm your girl, Sheryl Swoopes. When you tune in to a new episode of our podcast, Levels to this, you're definitely gonna get some spicy WNBA analysis.

[Narrator / Podcast Promos]

I see a lot of men who get into the space because now it's a hot product, and that grinds my gears to dust.

[Tarika Foster Brasby]

But then the conversation goes on and levels up beyond basketball.

[Sheryl Swoopes]

It's been really, really cool seeing kind of these women just really step into their power off the court and understand that they are basketball, right? And they're not asking for permission.

[Tarika Foster Brasby]

Because on Levels to this, the game is always the starting point. But we're more than just hoops, and the real conversation is what we actually bring. This is Levels to this, the podcast about all the levels of stu that women go through. Listen to Levels to this with Sheryl Swoopes and Tarika Foster brasby on the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcast, or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Chad Millman]

All right, Ben. We started talking about Seattle and New England, Simon and I. Me more than Simon. I think Simon agrees with me. And I don't want to, but we've talked about New England a little Bit. I'm a big fade on New England this year. They're still. Their win total is nine and a half and it's. It's juice to the over. It's minus 145 to the over. We can say they're getting a first place schedule, but it's not like the most difficult first place schedule. They got A.J. brown. I just feel like there's going to be a regression and I don't know that they fixed everything on their offensive line and who knows what the lingering drama is going to be from sort of the Rossini Vrabel scenario. Give us your take on New England because I'm a fade.

[Ben Solak]

Yeah. The only thing that's keeping me from feeling like confidently in a fade is the fact that the schedule isn't actually that hard.

[Chad Millman]

Right.

[Ben Solak]

You expect, you know, oh, easiest schedule in the world last year. It's going to, you know, crash back down. Like preseason projections have it like 12th right by Vegas, you know, win totals and so. All right. This is still a really well balanced team. It's got talent, all three levels. We know going back from even Rabel's days with the Titans. Rabel's teams typically, like, don't really bottom out right when they're going through bad stretches and okay, like they're not the same team that they were. They still like, you know, they, they play top contenders really well and they play those games close. And so, you know. All right, nine and a half juice to the over. I think the Patriots are like a tennis win team. So. Okay, I would want to be there on under nine and a half. It doesn't feel like one I want to run to because of the respect I have for Rabel. And then I've been a May guy since he came out of unc. I thought the rookie season was so strong. It was just underneath an incredible Jayden Daniels season, rightfully so. But there wasn't a lot of visibility on it because they were like a three win team. But May was making a lot of chicken salad out of, you know, what in year one, Brable installs just some professionalism into the building and all of a sudden, you know, we're leading the league in deep passing production with Keisha Booty. Right. And now we get that A.J. brown, Romeo Dobbs to it. So there's, there's just too much of like tent pole power between Brable and May for me to be running to the under. I do think that I'm going to lean under on them. They were one of the best Last year in terms like adjusted games lost. Right. They were generally pretty healthy as the year went on. That's probably going to regress down the line is the one where like I Will Campbell got absolutely cooked in the postseason. He was coming off of an injury. I thought rookie Will Campbell, pre injury, had a lot more. Okay, you know, this guy's going to figure it out. To him, I've always been a beer attacker guy. I like Jared Wilson. I love him at center a lot more than a guard. And so the line is one to me that, like that line Stevenson plus Henderson. I wouldn't be surprised if they're better running the football than people realize. And then you can win some games on run plus defense as well because they like, you know, that running attack didn't do much for them last year. I expect that to be a pretty, pretty improved unit.

[Simon Hunter]

Yeah, I think.

[Chad Millman]

Yeah.

[Simon Hunter]

Just.

[Chad Millman]

Yeah.

[Simon Hunter]

I was gonna say basically needed taking that next step. Right. If he does, there'll be a playoff team again. They should, they should do pretty well. But I do want to. Patriots fans understand the scheduled thing. It's. I know they get so upset about it. It's a real thing. Last year we talked about a very easy schedule this year. Next year you start with Seattle, Pittsburgh, Jacksonville and the Buffalo Bills, which are four playoff teams from the previous year. Like that's not just a walk in the park to start your season. That's a really tough, okay, better in teams. They're going to test this new team and they have a stretch in the middle of the season because they play the NFC North. They get Green Bay, Detroit a bye week. Then they come back to at Chargers, Buffalo and Minnesota, then at the Chiefs. Like that's in the middle of their season as well. So I told you they have a really four tough stretch to start the year. And then middle of the season they have really tough six games. They didn't have anything close to that last year. They had the Bills and then just a bunch of crap for about three, four weeks. Then the Bills again and then a bunch of crap for three, four weeks and oh, let's mix in the bucks here and there. It's like they just had a really, really light schedule last year or this year. It just feels like, okay, we're gonna find out pretty quick. Is Drake May what everyone says he is, a top 10 quarterback after one year or was it just okay they arrived so soon? Because insane coaching, like you can't ask for a better head coach and variable and a better coordinator. Right. Like your offensive Coordinator with him. You know, we talked about all the super bowl rings he has in Joshua Daniels and it's just like, okay, this is a team that, you know, they put it together. Staff wise craft. When we talk about great ownership, he did that last year. Have they done it in the draft? Right. The defense, we think they're great. The question is going to be offensive line, can Will Campbell. Was it all injuries like we just talked about? So it's another team. Like there's a list of teams. I'm so excited about their storylines coming to this season. They're at the top. It's like make us eat our words. Like we just people hated on them all all season last year about their schedule and they were proven right and they made a ton of money saying that. So I can't wait to see what they're going to be this season because they have all the elements to be a 13 win team. Like a weak division, ton of talent offensively, defensively. It's all on Drake, Mac. It really is.

[Ben Solak]

I have a Patriots schedule. Take that. I've been looking for a place to debut and I feel like this is a good pod for it which is that I think Drake may wins the MVP last year. Sports gambling is never legalized in the United States because. And like you guys probably talked like I talked to like a probably a wider range of people. You guys probably talk to a lot more like people who are in, in sports gambling. Six years ago you never heard anybody talk about strength of schedule except for people who are betting on season long win totals. Right. We were the only people who were engaging with, okay, Vegas strength of schedule right up until like two years ago we were still doing strength of schedule based off last year's win totals. Right. In terms of like modern, you know, mainstream discourse, last year I'm getting text from my mom about the Patriots strength of schedule.

[Chad Millman]

Right.

[Ben Solak]

She's a Jets fan until and she hates Patriots and so you know she's telling the Patriots are in this paper tie here. You know, Drake May, whatever. May missed MVP by one first place vote to Stafford last year. And I firmly believe it's because there's 4 billion accounts now tweeting out strength of schedule stuff off of Vegas win totals because that's how you know the average fan is consuming football right now. Relative to six years ago, you would not have heard jack about the Patriots defensive DVOA schedule face and Drake may probably just would have won MVP over Matthew Stafford. So it kills me how it feels like a lot of people are really interfacing with a week. Strength of season long strength of schedule for like the first time in their football watching careers with this 2025 Patriots team. I feel like a lot of people don't know how to like calibrate to it and I think we saw that a little bit in the May MVP voting last year.

[Chad Millman]

I think that's a brilliant take.

[Ben Solak]

I like. I'm not sure I believe it. It feels very Bill Simmonsy to me. But I like it. I feel proud of the fact that I authored it.

[Chad Millman]

I think it's a brilliant take. And I don't disagree. You. You saw about strength of schedule every single week. But I also believed it and I banked on it in the playoffs that this was not a team that was going to stack up and play its best football against teams that were really, really good. And we saw that, by the way, like we saw that in the playoffs. They had that game against the Texans that was so weather impacted. Then they had the game against the Broncos where Bo Nicks didn't play and they still didn't.

[Ben Solak]

And tons of weather impact in that one too.

[Chad Millman]

Right.

[Rebecca Nagle]

And they.

[Chad Millman]

And they didn't dominate that game. And then that game against Seattle was basically over in the first half even though Seattle hadn't blown them out yet. So I don't disagree at all with your take. I think it's. I think it's 100% spot on. What's interesting to me is the Matthew Stafford debate. To me it's about narrative and these are all elements that feed into narrative over the course of a season. Strength of schedule is coming from the media. Right? Everyone in the media is putting out strength of schedule as an, as an impact for why you shouldn't like the Patriots to go deep in the playoffs. And that's what the fans are picking up on. And that becomes the narrative around these awards because the narrative. The awards are all about narrative. That's it.

[Ben Solak]

And also Drake's. Drake's gonna have another chance to win mvp. With Stafford, it felt like, all right, gotta get him as well.

[Chad Millman]

Because that's the narrative.

[Ben Solak]

Always a big part of it.

[Chad Millman]

That's the narrative. That was it. That was totally it. But that's a, it's a great take. We.

[Simon Hunter]

We definitely went. It was probably 20, 23. The hardest me and Chad ever went to the schedule and made a ton of ton of money for us was the year the Eagles collapsed. We basically saw the DBOA numbers. All Those numbers at 23 of this Eagles team had an easy schedule and they Were not at what were they? 11 and 1 or 10 and 1. At the time it was like, this is not the best team NFL. We need to start feeding these guys. I think me and you Chat won seven straight weeks. Yeah, yeah, we did against the Eagles because of strength of schedule and just all the underlying data. So I'm with you, Ben. We've over adjusted the public opinion in somewhat. But as better as it's like, oh God, I love it. Thank you. These people drink our kool Aid because it does matter. All these things we talk all the time. It's not just a one unified thing. It's all that matters.

[Chad Millman]

Right?

[Simon Hunter]

All the different numbers, all the different datas and the schedule is part of that. So I'm with you. If we have we overreacted too much to it, I'm willing to see it. If like Drake May, I want him to make me eat my words because it's like we, we want someone to go out there and just show it to us. Right? It's, it's easy to do it during the regular season. You see in the playoffs, it's just a different beast. You've seen the numbers, Ben. He had arguably the worst player performance ever by a quarterback in our lifetime in the playoffs. So he's, he's seen those numbers. He's apparently put his crazy amount of work in this off season. I can't wait to see what Drake May comes on does because was. He should have been MVP last year. In a different world, of course, but I think once all the playoffs started, we were just like, oh my God. We just dodged a huge, huge mistake. Thank God Matthew Stafford won MVP last year.

[Chad Millman]

Ben, do you think you're even writing about football if not for the development of advanced analytics and all of us sort of turning these numbers into something that examines the game in an entirely different way.

[Ben Solak]

No shot. Yeah, I think I, like, I did not under. I didn't know anything about like what football analysis could be and what the work was until I got to college. Because we didn't, I didn't grow up in a house that like had ESPN the channel, right. We didn't get like, you know, my dad didn't get like fantasy football magazines for the house. And so I got to college and I was like, the pinnacle of NFL coverage is Bill Cower and a turtleneck on the CBS Sports halftime show being like, they gotta run it more jb. Like that was it like it just didn't get better than that. And then when I was in college, I, you know, had enough money to buy, like, you know, 499 subscriptions to, you know, ESPN Premium or wherever it would be. But, like, learned about Barnwell, learned about Mina, learned about, like, Pablo Torre at the time was running ESPN Mag, and it blew my socks off.

[Chad Millman]

Hold on, hold on. I was fucking running ESPN the Magazine.

[Ben Solak]

Yeah, but you didn't write stuff. I was reading all the names of the bylaws.

[Chad Millman]

Okay, well, you just said running. And I just want to be very clear. I hired Pablo. I was the editor in chief of the magazine.

[Ben Solak]

And I'm very grateful for the magazine.

[Chad Millman]

Thank you for that recognition.

[Ben Solak]

Yes. And so that's when I, like, you know, I started doing it for fun in college, and it kind of became a career from there. But for the work that I thought was interesting, which is, you know, to what degree can we actually figure out how good Drake May is relative to his receivers, relative to his offensive line, relative to his schedule? Like, how much can we actually get this out of context? For that work to be even digestible for a fan, it had to have been done previously by somebody else who, you know, at a much longer tenure and, you know, a proof of concept as an analyst. And that was right. The guys who came before me. And so for, you know, all five foot seven of Ben sold. To be sitting up there on an NFL, you know, set at ESPN and trying to speak with authority, we have to have been comfortable with and assume the idea that people who didn't play can know a thing or two and can explain a thing or two. And so very grateful to Chad Millman and the and ESPN the Mag. I will be sure to put your name first when I tell that story moving forward.

[Chad Millman]

Oh, my God, you're so welcome. You didn't even have to. You know what? You didn't even have to say that. That was just incredibly gracious. Let's do a quick word from Zbiotics, because then I want to talk about a couple more teams. Matt, Summer's almost here. Beautiful weather, long days, cocktails on the patio. Also, we both know that after a few stiff drinks, we don't bounce back like we used to. Sometimes we've had to choose between a great night or a great next day. But that was before Matt. We tried pre alcohol zbiotics. Pre alcohol probiotic drink is the world's first genetically engineered Probiotic, invented by PhD scientists to tackle rough mornings after drinking. Here's how it works. When you drink, alcohol gets converted into a toxic byproduct in the gut. It's a buildup of this byproduct, not dehydration that's to blame for rough days after drinking. Pre alcohol produces an enzyme to break down this byproduct. Just remember to make pre alcohol your first drink of the night. Drink responsibly and you'll feel your best tomorrow. Matt, as long as we've been talking about ZBiotics and pre alcohol, you've been a big fan, isn't that right? That's right. I'm spending my own money on this product. It is lovely. Highly recommend it. Whether you live in the drinking estate in the Union, like Wisconsin, or anywhere else, highly recommend it.

[Simon Hunter]

It's these little bottles. You knock them back, you feel your

[Chad Millman]

best the next day. Couldn't recommend it more. All right, well, listen, go to zbiotics.com sharpersquare to learn more and get 15% off your first order when you when you use Sharper Square. At checkout, ZBiotics is backed with 100% money back guarantee. So if you're unsatisfied for any reason, they'll refund your money, no questions asked. Remember to head to zbiotics.com sharporsquared and use the code sharporsquare at checkout for 15% off.

[Rebecca Nagle]

The declaration, which is full of these beautifully rendered, you know, sentences and paragraphs about enlightenment ideals, does also have this darker history to it.

[Narrator / Podcast Promos]

Why is it important for the darker part of the Declaration of Independence and the American Revolution? Why is it important that Americans know about it?

[Rebecca Nagle]

Well, if we don't understand the full context in which our nation was founded, we won't understand the full context in which our nation now finds itself.

[Narrator / Podcast Promos]

I'm Rebecca Nagle. Gohin Tawa Don Jalika Yitley. Que la? Citizen of Cherokee Nation.

[Ben Solak]

Are you guys big Chiefs fans? Hell, yeah.

[Tarika Foster Brasby]

Yeah.

[Narrator / Podcast Promos]

This is First America, the true story of how the United States came to be and how we got to this present moment. Listen to First America on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Gary Valenciano]

We've all been there. We've had seasons that have shaken everything. The question is, what remains when the shaking stops? Hi, I'm Gary Valenciano, and on my podcast Unshaken with Gary Vee, I sit down with amazing personalities and we talk about the seasons that nearly broke them, the lows that carried them to their highs. Listen to Unshaken with Gary Vee on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Paul Verze]

Hey, guys, Paul Verze here, and I want to talk to you about Paul's best podcast. Will Ferrell's Big Money Players Network and I Heart Radio. I sit down each week with a special guest and we discuss the absolute best of things Davidson.

[Simon Hunter]

It's that and then there's everything else.

[Paul Verze]

He would just shout one line and it would murder. Marie. Lunch. Let's talk about the best moments that

[Chad Millman]

we had on the road.

[Paul Verze]

I would love a God damn do Joker get laughed row middle seat on a Southwest Airlines flight. Joe, how was your flight?

[Chad Millman]

It was great.

[Paul Verze]

The guy in Penn State, we were on the field and the player thought Joe was his former coach, and he hugged him and hugged him and Joe just went with it.

[Chad Millman]

The guy goes, what are you doing here, coach?

[Ben Solak]

And Joe just goes. And you walk in and it is bananas. I mean, it's a feast for the eyes. And I was like, it's like, it's not my thing either, but we're here.

[Paul Verze]

When in Rome, top athletes, athletes, chefs, musicians, everybody. Listen to Paul's best podcast on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Tarika Foster Brasby]

Hey, everybody. I'm Tareka Foster Brasby. What's up, y'?

[Narrator / Podcast Promos]

All?

[Tarika Foster Brasby]

I'm your girl, Sheryl.

[Ben Solak]

Swoooo.

[Tarika Foster Brasby]

When you tune in to a new episode of our podcast, Levels to this, you're definitely gonna get some spy, CW NBA Analysis.

[Narrator / Podcast Promos]

I see a lot of men who get into the space because now it's a hot product, and that grinds my gears to dust.

[Tarika Foster Brasby]

But then the conversation goes on and levels up beyond basketball.

[Sheryl Swoopes]

It's been really, really cool seeing kind of these women just really step into their power off the court and understand that they are basketball. Right? And they're not asking for permission.

[Tarika Foster Brasby]

Because on Levels to this, the game is always the smallest starting point. But we're more than just hoops. And the real conversation is what we actually bring. This is Levels to this, the podcast about all the levels of stuff that women go through. Listen to Levels to this with Sheryl Swoopes and Tarika Foster brasby on the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcast, or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Chad Millman]

All right, I feel like. What are you laughing at?

[Ben Solak]

The message from Mitch in the chat.

[Chad Millman]

Oh, was it obnoxious?

[Ben Solak]

You said huge credit to Pablo Torres magazine. Leadership.

[Chad Millman]

Yeah, exactly. Isn't a Pulitzer enough? Does he need credit for everything?

[Simon Hunter]

Probably is.

[Chad Millman]

Jesus Christ. All right, we have not Careful.

[Simon Hunter]

Or Pablo's about to find out something about you.

[Ben Solak]

I live in constant fear of it, brother. Constant fear of it.

[Chad Millman]

I do not want Pablo digging Into my past, no way, no how. When we haven't talked about the Chiefs at all and you know there's rumors that Patrick Mahomes was dancing it up at the Taylor Swift Travis Kelsey wedding. It's, it's been relatively quiet about his rehab. Maybe we're going to find out during training camp that he's going to be back to start the season. We really don't know. Simon, give Ben sort of our take on the Chiefs right now as a value based team so then Ben can tell us if he agrees with us.

[Simon Hunter]

Yeah, this is the cheapest we know to. We've been able to buy Pat Stock since his first year is a full on starter so it's. I think he's gonna live. Same view of us as a better. We look for the value when everyone's talking Chargers or Denver. It's, it's definitely time to shift your view to the Chiefs. Right. It's going to be another year of Ken Spags turn, you know, just a crap young talent on that defense into a Super bowl caliber defense and people can doubt him. The same man with four super bowl rings though, or maybe five. Spags is just this brilliant defensive mind that doesn't give enough credit just because Andy Mahomes. Right. That's where we go as fans of football. We always go to the offense. But that, that to me is gonna be the big deal.

[Paul Verze]

Right.

[Simon Hunter]

What does that defense look like? And you know you've seen this. The Chiefs, they've not hit home runs in the draft, right. And that's kind of shown up Rice worthy. You've needed to fill these voids from the tyre kill and the Travis Kelsey aging out. They just have not done so offensively. And the GM said okay well we'll go get Kenneth Walker then we'll try to revamp this offense to see if we can do something different. And I just, I view Mahomes yes, it's a little nerve wracking check because his mobility is what makes him so special. Right. It's an underrated part of my homes. He doesn't run to the playoffs. When he does do it, it's magical. Like the stuff he pulls out of his ass and the playoffs using his legs. It's incredible. But I just can't get over how they're just left for dead by everybody. I mean pro betters are still on them but you just. The shows you watch on tv. And I think Ben might be the same way where I don't want to, I don't want to consume too much stuff during the season. But before the season, I want to consume as much as I possibly can because I'm always worried about stealing people's dicks.

[Gary Valenciano]

It's.

[Simon Hunter]

It's a weird thing in this business. I just want to be stepping other people's thought processes. But I am interested here what people's views are heading to the season. It's like what is the general public viewing right now? They are left for dead. Even our cohort, Colin Coward is leaving. He's talking about we've already had the best Mahomes years. It's already passed on. It's like, my God, don't think this way, Colin. It's like the, the brains and the body, that's what has to catch up, right? He already already had the body and the athleticism. His brain, though, that's what keeps improving so much is just. He's an artist on the field. The place he pulls out just using his left hand, switching to his right hand. Like the stuff he does with the ball, it's incredible. Mahomes. So yeah, I would love to get Ben's going to where maybe we're drinking too much of the Kool Aid. But it's just like, isn't this when you're supposed to buy on the Chiefs? It's like everyone thinks, yeah, he might be a little slow to start the year. There's zero chance Mahomes misses the game. This is the ultimate competitor in sports. So yeah, I just really cannot wait for this team in Denver, obviously Monday Night Football.

[Ben Solak]

Here's, here's my, here's my devil's advocate isn't this but very evidently the year where they're reloading like they, they, they trade Trent McDonough something they don't necessarily have to do. They led Jalen Watson walking free agency.

[Tarika Foster Brasby]

Okay.

[Ben Solak]

They make the Kenneth Walker signing the Chiefs running back room with Pacheco and Hunt was simply as fast as we are.

[Simon Hunter]

Right.

[Ben Solak]

Like it was. They had the lowest explosive run rate on running back carries last year of the six century. Right. And in 2024 is the third lowest of the century. So they just say that okay, we're going to add Kenneth Walker to the building. Running backs are fairly cheap. We are all draft and develop on defense. And this is where. Right. You're right. Spags deserve so much more credit. And if you ask any Chiefs fan, if you ever tell a Chiefs fan, hey, you guys lost, you know, Brian Cook a safety. He was a good safety. The Bengals gave him money. It might be tough to replace them. They Just immediately like, well, Spags one time took a sixth round of safety. Yes, no, I know like he's extremely good at this. But you don't generally want to be hanging the entire defensive strength off of. Right. A third round second year corner and Noel Williams going to be fighting for a starting job. Jaden Hicks is a fourth round safety. He's going to be fighting for a starting job. Right. Okay. You need our Mason Thomas to be a pass rusher impactful immediately. Peter woods, you need to be a pass rusher is impactful to be at the tackle immediately. Like there's just so many bets and because the Chiefs are not explosive in the passing game anymore. Right. We've seen that now for a couple of years. Andy Reid just wants to be very screen oriented and very yak oriented. They lack that, that Tyree Kill at, you know, prime Travis Kelsey, that sort of vertical threat. Because they're not going to be explosive in the passing game anymore. You really need a good defense to be able to win that kind of incremental matriculating style that they had there in 2024. And so I am like if you made me write down what I hope the Chiefs achieved in the pre in the off season and then you made me see their, see there what they actually did, I would be like, man, like I, this is not the way I would have gone about this. I would have been a lot more aggressive adding a receiver. You know, I would not have moved on from McDuffie just yet. Like this, this is not really the approach to like, you know, quickly rebound the team. Am I going to back my doubt with a bet on the under for the Chiefs win total? No. I'm not dumb. So you know, I, I don't want to be fading Patrick Mahomes from a season long perspective. That seems very silly to me though. This is like the Chiefs are, are evidently trying to infuse the roster with youth and prepare for the second stage of the Mahomes era that might be this year. If they hit, hit, hit, hit, hit and if there's a guy to trust to hit, hit, hit, especially on defense, it's bags. I just would like to see it before I start actually believing that they've turned the ship around that quickly.

[Simon Hunter]

Ben, you just said thought. Let me just see if I can get Ben to come to the dark side. Chad, because I know Ben is like,

[Chad Millman]

he seems very impressionable.

[Simon Hunter]

I think we can get at his core. He's a nerd. We both love numbers, but at the end of the day the Most important number which I bang over people's heads non stop is wins. And I know the group that wins are not a QB stat. Yes, we know it's a team sport, but you will never show me a hall of fame quarterback that didn't win more than seven, eight games a year, two, three years in a row. It just. If you're a good quarterback, the talent level is so high in the NFL across every position you're going to win. I mean that's just the way it is. You can always say, well he's got a bad defense, okay, he's not going to win 13 games, but he's better win eight or nine games, right? It just bad, good quarterbacks tend to win in this league. That's my whole view with this Mahomes part, which I hope I can get you on board where it's just like you just said it. In what world, unless his knee gets blown out again, does this man not win 10 years? It just I, I need people to understand these guys are psychopaths. These high like Tom Brady. You've seen him not be able to be normal in the offseason now that he's out of football. He needs to be competitive. He needs to be doing something constantly. That's Mahomes same exact way. They're just wired that way. So I just, I just view them I'm same way as Ben where it's like them starting one in three, that's a real possibility. This defense might be atrocious because they are so young. They're going to be getting insane looks and their division for the first time Mahomes career. It ain't his division. This is Bo Nick's division. Bo Nicks won this division last year.

[Ben Solak]

So disappointing.

[Simon Hunter]

I know he's never been in this position before though. So that's why it's like he's hearing idiots like me say those type of statements. How does Mahomes not just come out and just kill us all? I just. This is the exact moment we want to be back in a guy like this. So I, I am interested. Is this going to be the Mahomes low period we had with brady of like 8, 9 years of 10 win team, 11 win team but no play at success because the rest of the team is just trash. So I love this new era we're entering with the homes where it's like was that it was that the dynasty and now he just kind of is a mid level team or is this just one of these things where it's like oh, you're gonna doubt me when I have Andy reading spag still as running the show here. I just. It's all lined up. It feels like for this Chiefs team,

[Ben Solak]

say you I present as nerd. If you really wanted to get me onto chief's wagon, you need to go for the true core of my being, which is that I want to be 6, 3, 300 pounds and playing gourd in the NFL. Because this is the thing about this Chiefs team that gets me there is that this is, I think, going to be the best line that Mahomes had in a minute. Especially a tackle. Right. Where if Josh Simmons is on the field and you know, kind of reliably with the team, which is obviously certainly a question mark. And then with Jaylen Moore flopping to the right, which is a difficult flip, but it's becoming easier and teams are getting better at doing it year over year. I mean, I haven't felt good about Mahomes bookends certainly since they signed Juwan Taylor to that massive extension. And then even before then, it was a little bit of an issue and he did so much to mitigate poor tackle play and pressure off the edges. Once you don't have to solve that problem as a quarterback, once you don't have that kind of screaming in the back of your head, you can just do a lot more. You can dedicate a lot more energy and resources in the pocket to creating big throws and so on and so forth. And so if you take me to the world where the Chiefs are much more impactful on offense than they've been the last couple of years because they've been so incremental. And you ask me, what is it that changed? It's this offensive line is, I think now much more balanced, much better five across. And there's a chance that my home's life is just a lot easier from a pressure perspective.

[Chad Millman]

I want to get before. Before we let Ben go, I want to get his take in a rapid fire on a couple of hot button issues. Ready?

[Ben Solak]

Hit me.

[Chad Millman]

I'm making up these questions as we go here. Jackson dart, Cam, Scatterboo. So good. It doesn't matter. So dumb. It does matter.

[Ben Solak]

Definitely not the first one. I don't think dart is that dumb yet. Scat, man. I mean, I don't know. The lights don't seem like they're on the offseason.

[Chad Millman]

Yeah, he's pushing true idiocy.

[Ben Solak]

And the Giants, the Giants were in the free agent market for a running back that was reported. And you know they never got it done from a draft perspective either, but they very clearly, you know, Harbaughn the as the new kind of shot caller there was kicking the tires on running back options. So I don't, I'm not there. Like, you know, I think I'm 0% scatterboo and best ball right now. Dart. I still think like, you know, he's quarterback, but he knows that there's a degree of professionalism.

[Chad Millman]

You have to have flip side of that Baltimore Ravens addition by subtraction by not having John Harbaugh there anymore.

[Ben Solak]

I still lean. No, I still think Harbaugh was a really good coach. Brought a high level of professionalism to the building. I think there was a lot more Lamar conflict over the years with Greg Roman and Todd Monken than ever made it to the media until kind of the moment that Harbaugh left. And you saw that. I always with first year head coaches, with young play callers, my question is always when stuff starts to hit the fan, which will inevitably happen, how are you good at handling it? How well are you keeping the messaging in the building? Because the way that really good teams steamroll and bottom out is when the new young guys in the building don't have the experience to live through the ups and the downs. And so in general, I still lean. You know, Harbaugh had a really nice steady hand on the wheel and I think that the Ravens who have, you know, don't have amazing veteran leadership in terms of, you know, team locker room, are in a little bit of jeopardy of having like a massive drama filled season full of like, you know, barbs in the media. With that said, Jess Mitchell is really good coach. Declan Doyle is a really good coach. There's also a lot of, you know, nice high right tales here that you can talk me into.

[Chad Millman]

Give me the final order of finish in the most difficult division in football, the NFC North.

[Ben Solak]

Yeah, man. I mean, all I know is I'm on the Vikings at 5 to 1 because they're the bottom of the, of the, of the group. And if somebody else at the bottom of the group, I'd probably be on them. I think, you know, water gun to my head, I would put it Bears, Bears, Vikings, Lions, Packers, Bears. Wow. I struggle the most with it with the two to three there. I'm gonna, I'm in a spot where I want to be fading the packers this year. I'm comfortable in that. Two new starters along the offensive line, you know, Romeo Dobbs out of the building. A lot of eggs right now in the basket of Christian Watson who gets banged up. Tucker crash coming off a major injury. Josh Jacobs who was really not effective last year on the stats. And then defensively, man with no Michael Parsons. Who do you like? I mean, I mean you like Xavier McKinney and Evan Williams and it's not a lot of needle moving players. So I know I'm a Packers fade and I know I'm a Vikings by just in terms of preseason look, but I mean, yeah, everybody here has a good chance to win this division.

[Chad Millman]

I am Simon. I am shocked he went with the Bears in first place.

[Simon Hunter]

Yeah.

[Ben Solak]

This time next year we're going to be asking Caleb or Josh Allen. Wow.

[Paul Verze]

Wow.

[Simon Hunter]

We were high. Too high on Caleb. Let's go Ben. But yeah, this is, this goes back to our point though where you don't know what for sure will be. Where last year me and you were sitting here chatter saying the Bears, we love Ben Johnson. This is all here. What is he gonna be like when hits the fan? Apparently pretty damn good. But I mean like he was better

[Chad Millman]

when hit the fan.

[Simon Hunter]

Yeah.

[Ben Solak]

When you, when you do reporting and you, you ask about like people in that building and the league around, like what Ben did in year one and in terms of how much better they got week over week, how like think about the pre snap operation issues they were having and how much that got ironed out. Think about Colston Loveland having a middle of the year one breakout at receiving tight end position that does not produce as a rookie when he was injured for all of training camp. You know, like that's a, that's preposterously difficult to pull off. Ben's midstream ability to kind of figure stuff out. It's right up there with Sean and Kyle, right? We're like, you know, Matt Jones goes in and Kyle's like, yeah, we're gonna score 30 a game. Halfway through the season, Devonte gets hurt, the Rams playing the Jags in London and Sean's like, yeah, okay, we're a 13 personnel team now. We're going to do it for the rest of the season. Ben is right there. Like it deserves to have his name mentioned in the sentence with those guys. In terms of the ability to figure stuff out as the season goes.

[Chad Millman]

I mean Bears going to be good.

[Ben Solak]

Defense might be awful, but they'll be fun to watch.

[Chad Millman]

I am all freaking in. I like what he just said about Caleb Williams and Josh Allen because that's a great transition. Ben Solak from espn, thanks for coming on the show. Great, great work. Anyone who listens to the show. Knows I will be referencing Ben's stats, Ben's columns. They're fantastic during the season at espn, so check those out. This has been Sharper Square, part of the Volume Podcast Network. We're gonna have the next episode. We're off Thursday. Then we fire up every single Tuesday Thursday as we go through the NFL season. It's our annual Top 10 Quarterbacks episode with Rich Rebar. It's always a joy to hear Simon mock me. So this has been Sharper Square, part of the Volume Podcast Network watcher. Listen on YouTube at Sharper Square like this video. Subscribe to the channel. Download some Spotify Apple pods wherever you get your pods. Rate, review, subscribe. Leave us five stars. Say whatever you want. Feedback is a gift. Till next time. Love you.

[Ben Solak]

I mean, there's been a lot of guys that have done really well for two days in pajamas. I'm done with the hype of the pajama party in May. We'll find out in training camp who's who. It's going to be good across the board.

[Rebecca Nagle]

150 years ago, they were hunting us

[Ben Solak]

down to kill us.

[Rebecca Nagle]

And now they're hunting down immigrants to deport them.

[Narrator / Podcast Promos]

This is First America, the true story of how the United States came to be and how we got to this present moment. Listen to First America on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Tarika Foster Brasby]

Hey, everybody, I'm Tarika Foster Brasby. What's up, y'?

[Paul Verze]

All?

[Tarika Foster Brasby]

I'm your girl, Cheryl Swoops. When you tune in to a new episode of our podcast levels to this, you're definitely gonna get some spy CWNBA analysis. But we're more than just hoops and the real conversation is what we actually bring.

[Sheryl Swoopes]

It's been really, really cool seeing kind of these women just really step into their power off the court and understand that they are basketball right? And they're not asking for permission.

[Tarika Foster Brasby]

Listen to levels to this with Strobe Swoops and Tarika Foster brasby on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Mangesha Teegular]

I'm Mangesha Teegular and I'm back with a new season of my podcast, Skyline Drive. This time I talk to scientists, biopunks, curmudgeons, blue zoners, super seniors, and Goa's top cryotherapy lab to try to understand this obsession with living forever and why, what it means for all of us. And I get into a bit of trouble along the way.

[Chad Millman]

I'd say, probably start bone smashing.

[Ben Solak]

That doesn't work.

[Tarika Foster Brasby]

To make it look more defined.

[Chad Millman]

They say it works.

[Sheryl Swoopes]

I don't know.

[Mangesha Teegular]

Listen to Skyline Drive, how to Live Forever on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Chad Millman]

Bill, why is my eye twitching?

[Narrator / Podcast Promos]

Does this mean I'm in perimenopause?

[Chad Millman]

Where's my phone?

[Ben Solak]

Juliana, maybe we can ask an actual human.

[Chad Millman]

Yes, because I have questions, and I

[Narrator / Podcast Promos]

bet you do, too.

[Chad Millman]

Like, is it normal to sleep in separate bedrooms?

[Narrator / Podcast Promos]

We do that.

[Chad Millman]

And I still need to know why my poop's been green.

[Ben Solak]

We've got actual people answering these exact questions. Listen to Bill and Juliana, the podcast on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or

[Simon Hunter]

wherever you listen to your podcasts.

[Tarika Foster Brasby]

This is an iHeart podcast. Guaranteed Human.