The Daniel Cormier Show - DC & Ben Askren on ENDING DC vs. Jon Jones BEEF, Pimblett vs. Gaethje, Topuria IS BACK

Summary

Podcast Summary

The Herd with Colin Cowherd

Episode: The Daniel Cormier Show - DC & Ben Askren on ENDING DC vs. Jon Jones BEEF, Pimblett vs. Gaethje, Topuria IS BACK
Date: January 22, 2026
Host(s): Daniel Cormier (DC) & Ben Askren

Episode Overview

This episode brings together former UFC champions Daniel Cormier and Ben Askren for a candid, entertaining conversation focused on resolving sport rivalries, current UFC matchups, business dealings in MMA, and personal comebacks. The central theme is personal and professional growth, featuring DC reflecting on his long-standing rivalry with Jon Jones, discussion of upcoming UFC fights including Pimblett vs. Gaethje, and insights about ascendant stars like Ilia Topuria. Authenticity, humor, and bold opinion drive the conversation.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Ben Askren Addresses Nate Diaz "Controversy"

• [01:06-06:40]
  • Ben clarifies his previous comments about Nate Diaz’s UFC record.
  • “I made a statement of fact about Nate Diaz's record, and I said, it’s average… If Daniel said, hey Ben, what was your record in the UFC? I’d say it was one and two. You know what? It’s below average. There’s no way to spin that.” — Ben Askren [01:45]
  • DC and Ben joke about online trolling and the unique culture around fighter beefs.

2. Online Back-and-Forths and Fighter Personas

• [06:41-09:56]
  • Ben shares a personal update: overcoming months of struggle to finally regain his mental clarity.
  • “Last Friday… I started crying, bro. For seven months, I haven’t really been able to take care of myself, like really fully. And my brain wasn’t functioning really fully.” — Ben Askren [08:06]
  • DC expresses genuine happiness for Ben’s recovery and notes his return to sharp form on Twitter.

3. The Anatomy (and End?) of DC’s Rivalry with Jon Jones

• [10:02-15:02]
  • Ben presses DC on why he should forgive and move on from Jon Jones.
  • “I think it takes up too much mental space… you just let Jon do what Jon wants to do.” — Ben Askren [10:18]
  • DC details why it’s not as simple: “This thing with me and Jones isn’t just because he won, it’s how he won.” [11:25]
  • Both agree their rivalry is now mostly for public and media consumption, not personal animosity.

4. Jon Jones’ Future, UFC Trust and the Business of Fights

• [15:11-18:29]
  • Uncertainty about Jon Jones vs. Alex Pereira; DC and Ben evaluate Jones’ optimal weight class.
  • “Jon’s likely to say, I’m never fighting again.” — Ben Askren [17:52]
  • DC questions whether Jon is responsible for ‘leaving the sport better than he found it,’ emphasizing the importance of legacy over self-interest.

5. The Transactional Nature of UFC and Fighter Choices

• [20:13-23:16]
  • Debate about fighters’ obligations to their sport and the UFC as a company.
  • Ben says, “If you watch how Dana operates, it is a very transactional business… Now that Jon is treating it transactionally, also, and… Connor is treating it very transactionally also.” [22:30]

6. Lightweight Division Drama: Pimblett, Gaethje, Tsarukyan, and Topuria

• [24:41-30:06]
  • Arman Tsarukyan’s title prospects are discussed, with DC and Ben convinced the UFC’s decisions are business-driven.
  • “If Dana’s a businessman, Paddy Pimblett winning the title is the best outcome. He’s popular… Arman is not going to create the same response.” — Ben [24:56]
  • Breakdown of Ilia Topuria’s fighting frequency and “two fights a year” pattern [27:07-27:59].
  • Ben rates Arman highly: “He beats Pimblett and Gaethje for sure… Him and Topuria’s a tossup.” [29:22]

7. Upcoming Events & Fight Predictions

• [32:43-33:42]
  • DC asks Ben to pick between Gaethje and Pimblett:
    • “I’ll probably go, Paddy. Unfortunately. I want Justin to win.” — Ben [33:22]
  • Side talk about travel and UFC’s packed event schedule.

8. Conor McGregor’s Next Opponent and the UFC’s Business Dilemma

• [33:42-37:06]
  • Discusses the frustration of Michael Chandler waiting for McGregor.
  • DC: “At this point, do you have to give it to Mike (Chandler)? I mean, he has waited and waited and waited for Conor McGregor.” [34:16]
  • Ben: “It just seems kind of not right… It’s almost like you have to just fight and hope.” [35:02]
  • Speculation: if McGregor returns, he may fight more than once.

9. The New TV Rights Era & McGregor’s Negotiations

• [37:38-40:25]
  • UFC’s new media deal and its impact on star power payments.
  • “There is no way in hell Conor McGregor is still fighting when they got to renegotiate this. So… you can’t pay him that much because… you’re going to be retired in six years.” — Ben [38:28]
  • Gate revenue is now limited: “There’s no gate at the White House. They are not selling tickets.” — Ben [39:19]

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Ben on mental health recovery: “Last Friday, I started crying, bro. For seven months, I haven’t really been able to take care of myself.” [08:06]
• DC, acknowledging rivalry realities: “It’s how Jon won. That’s why it’s different.” [11:25]
• Ben’s business take: “Dana operates… very transactionally. If you can do something for the company, he’ll push you. If you can’t, he’s ruthless.” [22:30]
• On matchmaking favoritism: “Paddy Pimblett winning the title is the best outcome. He’s popular.” — Ben [24:56]
• About Michael Chandler waiting for McGregor: “At this point, do you have to give it to Mike? He has waited and waited and waited for Conor McGregor.” — DC [34:16]
• On McGregor’s bargaining leverage: “His gate for the Chandler fight was 20 million. Before the fight?” — Ben [40:06]

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Important Timestamps

| Timestamp | Segment | |-------------|-----------------------------------------------------------------| | 01:45 | Ben on the facts of records (“That is below average…”) | | 08:06 | Ben’s emotional breakthrough about recovery | | 10:18–11:25 | Ben pressing DC on Jon Jones feud | | 15:11–18:29 | Jon Jones’ future, potential Alex Pereira fight | | 22:30 | Ben’s assessment of UFC’s transactional nature | | 24:56–29:45 | Discussion of Arman, Pimblett, lightweight title scenarios | | 33:22 | Ben predicts Pimblett over Gaethje | | 34:16–35:02 | Chandler’s wait for McGregor | | 38:28–40:06 | UFC’s new deal and Conor McGregor’s changing leverage |

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Episode Flow & Tone

The tone is candid and personal, with DC and Ben frequently joking, needling one another, but also digging into the hard truths of sports business and rivalries. Both men offer inside knowledge and don’t shy away from calling out the UFC, each other, or popular fighters for public and private behavior. The banter and honesty create an engaging, authentic episode for both hardcore and casual MMA fans.

Transcript

[A]

This is an iHeart podcast. Guaranteed Human new year.

[B]

Same extra value meals at McDonald's. Now get a savory sausage McMuffin with egg plus hash browns and a small coffee for just $5 for a limited time only. Prices and participation may vary. Prices may be higher in Hawaii, Alaska and California.

[A]

And for delivery, the volume. Daniel.

[B]

Ben. I don't have much voice. I don't have much voice, but okay. Hey, you see me in this white shirt? Don't I look angelic?

[A]

Angel. I know you too well to ever feel like you'll be angelic.

[B]

So I'm just normal?

[A]

Well, we'll try to pull you back from the dark side. They got me, so maybe we'll get you, too.

[B]

Hey, you can't make jokes about that, man.

[A]

Why not?

[B]

Because. Okay, we can make jokes about it. I don't think we're in the clear a little bit. Hey, Ben. So how's everything? How's life? How's everything? It's been a couple of weeks now.

[A]

Good.

[B]

We did this. Hey, the reception to us doing our podcast again was very, very good. I enjoyed that. I, like people, seem to be happy that you were back, when in reality, a lot of times you be pissing them off, man. You would be pissing off.

[A]

Well, you know what? You know, I piss them off is because you know it's your fault. You make me say the things. Although I would like to. Could I address the controversy from last time? Go ahead. Because, you know. Okay, so. Well, two things. Number one, feels that you just died. Are you still going to be a hater? And it's like, okay, number one, I don't really. I wasn't really making an opinion. I was making a statement of fact. So. And also, just because you die doesn't mean you can't live anymore.

[B]

What you mean?

[A]

Well, I made a statement of fact about Nate Diaz's record, and I said, it's average. And so, like, I'll just give you another example. If you said. If Daniel said, hey, Ben, what was your record in the fc? I'd say it was one and two. You know what? It's below average. That is below average. There's just. There's just no way to spend that. Now, listen, I came in when I was retired. I fought three guys who all filed for a title belt. But one and two is not a good record. It's just pretty simple.

[B]

Yes. Yes.

[A]

I don't know why we're debating that.

[B]

Can you accept that? Can you. And you accept that freely? Not a problem.

[A]

Yeah, I mean, like, but do you.

[B]

Think that that's where the problem is? Do you feel like Nate doesn't accept it, or Nate's fans don't accept it?

[A]

Well, I don't. They did threaten a lungs lung transparent patient. That was kind of funny. He did. You didn't see? He didn't say lung transplant. He's a long, long transplant.

[B]

Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait.

[A]

Louise. Fine. He. I. He said something like, louise, I don't care if you're a lung transparent patient. I'll slap you or something, which I found to be hilarious. But, yeah, I mean, like, no, no, please.

[B]

Sin. The tweet Nate Diaz went at you.

[A]

I. That's what I saw. I didn't look too much into it, so. But yes, I mean, I see. If it's just a account statement of fact, that's it. No, I. I think it was real. Oh. Hope it was Never know what these AI these days, bro.

[B]

AI's bad. Did you AI that they, bro?

[A]

Yeah, they got you. It was good.

[B]

Am I that. Ben? Am I that fat?

[A]

No, of course not. They embellished everything.

[B]

Yeah, but wait. I mean, I am fat. I get it.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I've put on some weight since I stopped fighting.

[A]

I thought you started working out again. Aren't you losing weight?

[B]

I am, I am, but, hell, I was fat when I was fighting. But, bro, I don't think I'm that big. Luis, show the video.

[A]

You're not. You're not that fat.

[B]

Show the video, Luis. I mean, Ben, that's crazy. That's crazy. You know what's really messed up is the Russians and I, we have this great relationship while we make jokes, we pull, we tug, we push, and then. But, I mean, it's become a thing. It's taking on a life of its own now. Hold on, let me see a little bit.

[A]

Yep, that's the tweet. It was real. I was. I was right.

[B]

He said he gonna slap me next time he see me.

[A]

That's fine. I've been slapped before.

[B]

Look, Ben changes DC's mind about the quality of Nate Diaz. DC, he was good in the UFC. He was 1612. Well, that's not good. There's really no way to do it.

[A]

Too funny, right?

[B]

Why do you give me the cross with Nate Diaz, too? Bro, I gotta help you. I can't let him slap you.

[A]

It's okay. Listen, I'm getting more durable. I think. It'll be all right. I don't think anyone died from a slap, ever. You never know.

[B]

But we can't Let him slap you, man.

[A]

It's okay. By that time, by the time I see anybody, because, like, I don't really travel anymore, man, I'll be hit quick. Double, like, lightning quick.

[B]

But he's got great jujitsu.

[A]

It's pretty good.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

How many you gave him? How many submissions did he have?

[B]

You just gave him a compliment. He's got great.

[A]

And then I asked you a question. I said, oh, well. Well, you know, how many submissions did he have?

[B]

So you're going to base whether or not he's good in jiu jitsu on the amount of submissions he had.

[A]

I mean, that's a pretty good indicator. If you wanted to know someone was a good pinner, you'd say, like, how many people did he pin? Like, you know, how many takedowns did he get? Is he a good takedown guy? I don't know. How many takedowns did he get?

[B]

Let me look at it right now.

[A]

I actually bet he's got quite a few would be my guess.

[B]

But, yeah, he got some submissions, but here's the.

[A]

Connor.

[B]

That's at least one he submitted. Connor.

[A]

So he had a bunch in the beginning.

[B]

12 submissions out of 19 out of 21 victories.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

How many?

[A]

That's good.

[B]

Yeah. One thing. He's. He's never. He doesn't get knocked out, though.

[A]

He does not. He's. No. You know who knocked him out and you know who asked me to come on their podcast, and I said. I said yes. You got to know this. You have to know this.

[B]

Dan, this is a friend of yours, Jake Paul.

[A]

He didn't. Jake Paul is not your friend. And it went the whole distance.

[B]

It went the whole distance. Okay. My friend knocked out Nate.

[A]

Your friend knocked out Nate Diaz. Trying to find the fighter. Yeah. Yeah, I'm right. April 20, 2013. I bet. I. I can almost guarantee you were at the fight.

[B]

2013. I wasn't calling fights yet.

[A]

You were not, but it's your buddy, and it was.

[B]

Oh, Josh Thompson.

[A]

Thompson.

[B]

I was there. Yeah. Yeah, he did, but he didn't knock him out. He actually kicked him in the head. And then they threw the towel in to stop the fight.

[A]

Really?

[B]

Yeah, bro. They threw the towel in. He didn't actually knock him out. Oh, I remember that now. Yeah, that's a long time ago, bro. We just keep picking.

[A]

Next topic. Get off him.

[B]

No, no, I'm just saying. You just. You just. You're back. You're all the way back. Ben Askren.

[A]

I actually. I'm not deep into it. I had My. I hadn't. I had a break. You know, someone asked me for the film, like, have you had a breakdown yet? And I didn't have one. Last Friday, I had a breakdown, Daniel. And it was like. It was like I was full of gratitude. And I just like, bro, I've been through some shit for the last seven months. And last Friday, three of my academies, they did manager meetings and stuff like that, and I was just alone the whole day. No one was worried about me. I did my own thing. I took care of myself. That hasn't happened in seven months. And it's damn, damn good. And my brain feels like. I don't know if you. I was actually thinking of an analogy for you because you've never had a traumatic situation like this, but, you know.

[B]

Like, what you're talking to me. I've had traumatic. Not like yours, but I've had.

[A]

No, no, not like that. Hold on. So my brain started working again, like. Like full. Full speed.

[B]

Almost.

[A]

At least almost full speed. But, you know, like, when you get. You do a fight and then you go to camp and, you know, you probably still trained a little bit, but you didn't train as hard.

[B]

Yep.

[A]

Okay. So then you get back, and when you. When you start back, feel like it's a little bit slower. Things. Timing's off a little bit. It's not super clicking, right?

[B]

Yes.

[A]

And you know. You know, at some point during this camp, shit's just gonna start clicking, right? And then, you know, sometimes it takes too long and you're getting a little nervous. You're like, damn, fight's only four weeks away and stuff's not clicking, and one day just, boom. It clicks.

[B]

Yep.

[A]

That's what it felt like last Friday.

[B]

And what did you do?

[A]

I started crying, bro.

[B]

Really, dude?

[A]

Like, for seven months, I haven't really been able to take care of myself, like. Like, really fully. And my brain wasn't functioning really fully. Like, I was here, but I wasn't. I wasn't all the way here.

[B]

And now you're all the way back.

[A]

All the way is maybe at least mental clarity.

[B]

Maybe not physically, but brain feels.

[A]

Yes, my brain feels very, very all the way there now, where it was like, it was just like, I would get really tired or it would be silly. I'm like, I couldn't handle nearly the volume or the load of things that I wanted to deal with. And I always. I felt a level of guilt because to everyone else, I'm still me. Right? But, you know, now people want me to help with academy stuff. Or help coaching or whatever. And it's like, I just literally can't. I couldn't handle it, you know? So I would try to not do it, but I would just, you know, I'd struggle through it a lot.

[B]

Yeah. Ben. Well, I'm happy for you, man. That makes me, like, really happy.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

That is. I can imagine it was one of the best feelings you've had in a real long time. And I'm telling you, just. Even the fact that you were doing stuff prior to that to get that back.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Awesome. But what I'm also not surprised is the moment you find that clarity, you decide you're gonna use that brain to start fucking with people again on Twitter.

[A]

Well, Twitter. I had such a great day. And then I got home and I did my family. We got still on the couch and there was two Big ten matches, and I'm just sitting there. My family's like, you know, they're kind of into the wrestling, but, you know, they're watching it and we're hanging out, and I'm just firing tweets away because the Iowa fans. This is one thing. So when you're trolling someone, it only works good. Listen, and since you're a bully, you know this more than anyone. It works the best when people react.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Like, there is no one who gets as offended as Iowa fan base. So then it just makes me want to just keep it up and, like, tease them, you know?

[B]

Yep, Yep. Yeah, I got one for you. I got a person that gets more offended. Who? John Jones. Jon Jones.

[A]

Oh, you know what? I came on here to have. I came on here to have a heart to heart with you. I. I think you should just forgive and forget Jon Jones.

[B]

No. No.

[A]

Why? Come on.

[B]

Why?

[A]

Listen, I am not. I'm not saying. I am not. This is not me saying be friends with him. I don't think.

[B]

Tell me why. Tell me why. I.

[A]

So I think. I think it takes up too much mental space, and you just let John do what John wants to do. You know, I. I don't want to make a judgment on John. He's always made some really bad decisions in his life and done some really bad things, but, you know, he might be a really good person. I don't really know him on that level.

[B]

He's not. He's not. Let me tell you something about Jon Jones in everyday Face to Face with Jon Jones. It's not as nasty as you would expect between him and I. It really isn't. It's not like we're like Arguing the whole time. We do kind of go back and forth sometimes. It might seem like it's in jest, but there's a lot of things that's underlying about it. Yeah.

[A]

So, like, I'll tell you. I'll tell you what, as a good friend, as your good friend.

[B]

Like, people seem to want to talk to him, so there must be a side of him that. I don't know. Here's the problem. I don't know that you've ever had a relationship with anyone like the relationship I've had.

[A]

Chris Pendleton. Well, no, see, Chris Pendleton, that was a joke.

[B]

Chris Pendleton. Only because he beat you. This thing with me and Jones isn't just because he won, it's how he won. Yeah.

[A]

Fair.

[B]

And it's like.

[A]

But it's not going to bring you any joy. It's not going to bring you any joy to worry about.

[B]

Like, I don't think I've. Hey, let me tell you something, okay? There was a kid that beat me up and picked on me when I was a kid.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

I remember whenever we were adults, he said to me, oh, man, you remember when we were children and we had all these great times and these memories and it took me back to the childhood and I was like, yeah, we had fun at times, but was that before or after? We were fighting each other all the time because you were an asshole as a seven year old kid. So I was like, get out of my VIP section. You don't get to hang out with me because we're still. We're not fine. It doesn't go away. What did he say?

[A]

Sorry.

[B]

He never said sorry.

[A]

All right, fine. That's fair.

[B]

And Jon Jones won't say sorry.

[A]

That's fine.

[B]

So.

[A]

But no, no, I'm just saying just for you, for. Forget him. What did he do?

[B]

But it doesn't bother me. I don't care. Like, I don't.

[A]

Well, I'll give you a. I'll give you an example of last week where people were on you about this one, but when you said something like, he won't be great as Gable's coach or something to that effect.

[B]

He said that?

[A]

You said that?

[B]

Oh, yeah, I did. I did. I did.

[A]

So listen, do you agree with me or no? Well, here's what I'm going to say. The factual statement of what you said, if a coach is too egotistical, it doesn't play out very well. They can't be a good coach. Right?

[B]

Is that true or not?

[A]

That. That's 100 true. Now, John is Obviously in his life and very egotistical. But listen, people change. He's grown up. He might get. Who knows? We don't know that. We don't know that.

[B]

I stated a. A statement of fact. Is that I used. Is that how you said that earlier?

[A]

Well, so, yeah.

[B]

The person that I know. The person that I know or what I have seen would not seem to be a great leader.

[A]

Yes. What you're saying is.

[B]

But also, you got to understand that I'm just coming off of a show with him.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So I have more information in terms of what type of coach he is.

[A]

Okay. Well, I mean, the statement of fact is someone's too egotistical. Right. If a, you know, if a coach has a lot of ego, they can't take the. Someone under them, starting to rise above them. Right. That they really struggle with that, and then they can start undercutting them and whatnot. So, you know, that's possible. But no, I just think it's like, you know, it doesn't. Doesn't do me any good. Well, he's not my enemy anymore, I guess. But like, say the thing about George Mosville, I did. I try to think of who cares what he's doing on a daily basis or.

[B]

Yeah, me too.

[A]

Whatever. Just. I'm just gonna do it.

[B]

I'm actually happy. I hope on a daily basis. His life is great.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

I actually wish. I don't wish the harm or the bad in the ways that I may have prior. I actually just know that while. Dude, I swear there were times where Jon Jones and I had like, laughs. Laughs. Seriously, like laughs at stuff.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

But I just don't think it will lead to a moment where there's a friendship. And that's okay, though I said, I.

[A]

Don'T think you should be friends with him.

[B]

That's what people don't understand. Like, you should. I don't. I don't think that it says big a deal as it was. Here's the thing, it does. And the problem is our rival so big that it does generate people watching.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

People want to hear about stuff, so you speak about it. And that's really why it gets brought.

[A]

Up over and over in regards to.

[B]

Him and I. Thursday, next topic.

[A]

Every time. Next topic. Next topic.

[B]

But he is fighting, right? He is fighting.

[A]

Is he fighting?

[B]

I think.

[A]

Is he going to fight Alex?

[B]

So I think what Dana White said the other day was probably my greatest idea of what Jon Jones could do. When Dana was asked about the fight, he said at 205. Yes, question mark. That would be a fight. But can I count on Jon Jones? Can't have Jones doing something bad or pulling out of the effing White House.

[A]

Right.

[B]

The boss is not certain that he can trust him on such an important fight card. But I think what's bigger to me is if the fight happens, it could potentially happen at 205. I think Jones is better at 205 because I believe that he has to train harder. He has to be more committed to just get down to the weight. So you be put in better training camps because of that. Do you think that the fight at 205 would be better for Jones? And do you, Ben, from the outside believe that a fight between Pereira and Jones would even be competitive?

[A]

So I think, I think 205 or heavyweight, it's, it's heavy favorite Jones, which, well, I think priorities is kind of a no lose type situation. Jones was the best of all time. And I have a hard time and this is dumb, but I haven't. It hasn't really been proven the other way because for some how he never ends up in wrestling matches. But I just remember Izzy Adesanya taking him down and holding him down for a significant portion of time. And I can't not see Jon doing that to him.

[B]

Not taking him down, you mean?

[A]

And holding him down.

[B]

See, that's the thing, right? Jones is smart inside the Octagon.

[A]

Very smart.

[B]

The path to victory he will take and honestly, he's a tremendous striker also. But I believe if you're fighting a Pereira, bro, you should be taking or attempting so many takedowns. Even our Goliath in the last fight, yeah, he found success striking the first time, but the last time he didn't give any takedown threaten. Pereira just ran through him. It's crazy.

[A]

Crazy. So, yeah, I like, I, I don't know, I'm not gonna hold my breath on that one. I kind of feel like it's not gonna happen. I think Pereira does see it as a no lose. And then, but then the other thing that you haven't mentioned, I think Dana White sees, because Dana's always thinking of this is if I get, you know, when he said I can't trust John, it's like, okay, but if John comes back and kills Pereira, you devalue Pereira and then Jon's likely to say, I'm never fighting again.

[B]

Right?

[A]

So you, you, if you're the ufc, you don't get any more fights out of Jon Jones. Whereas Pereira, he is older, but he's not really showing any Signs of slowing down. He's fought at a very active clip. So you want to keep him like prime commodity. And if you can get, you know, four to six more good fights out of him without being devalued by Jon Jones. Because if you said, hey Ben, you get to bet the over an old Jon Jones fight, two and a half more fights, no way. There's no way he's fighting that many. Like he wants to come back. Beat up Pereira, say I beat up a different guy who's won multiple belts. I'm the extra greatest of all time and then just run away.

[B]

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[A]

I mean it's, it's smart and it's. But you know, I guess would that.

[B]

Be considered a, well, selfish thought like let me go and elevate myself more and not necessarily care about what happens to the company behind me, but also, but also still not fight the one guy that everybody said I should fight?

[A]

Well, Aspinall or when I went up.

[B]

To said weight class at heavyweight. Hold on, does that come off as selfish?

[A]

I'm at you know what? I'm funny enough. I'm actually going to say no, and I'll give a great explanation. I will say the UFC is a company, not a person. Now, if he was lying to Daniel, says Dana, I'm gonna come back and fight four more times. Give me the fight. And then he does it. Now, that's selfish.

[B]

But do you remember now, this is me. Just. This is not me making stuff up. And this is me. Okay, tell me they don't want said something to the effect of the Steepe fight happens. You're going to give me the Aspinall fight. That was essentially agreed.

[A]

Oh, I don't recall that, actually.

[B]

No, but Ben. So hey, let me have the. Alex.

[A]

So that's probably. That's probably a trust thing, right?

[B]

That's.

[A]

That's probably one of the things Dana's speaking about.

[B]

So I'm just saying, Ben, I asked the question.

[A]

I don't know. I do. I do not. I do not classify that as selfish.

[B]

I do. Okay, because like, you got to make sure I always believe this. And I believe this for just about everything that I do. You leave it better than you found it. Whether.

[A]

But data doesn't operate like that. I mean, like, listen, Dana, I love Dana, good or bad. But he. He did me really dirty. Think about how he's. We're talking 155. Think about what he's doing to our man Armin right now.

[B]

But listen, think about this, right? This is just me. You leave it better than you found it. Or at least you try to, ideally, because there's going to be someone behind you, right, that may need it more than you did. Whether you're going into your high school wrestling team, leave the program better, or you're going into a job, the next person should find that job in a great place that you left it. Always leave it better than you found it. And it's true. You don't believe that that would be the case.

[A]

You and I were buddies, but we have maybe different feelings about the uc. You have a lot warmer. You've been there for a long time. They took care of you. You have a great job with them. Me, obviously, my. I have a very mixed bag. I appreciate the opportunity, but if you've watched how Dana operates, it is a very transactional business. If you can do something for the company, he'll push you. And if you can't, he's kind of freaking ruthless. Like, he's really, really can be ruthless. And you know, as a businessman, that's his right to be Able to be ruthless. I don't really hold that against him, but that doesn't mean I'm not going to acknowledge it as what is true. And so now that John is treating it transactionally also, and to another guy we're probably talking about tonight, we're going to talk for a long time, apparently Connor is treating it very transactionally also.

[B]

Well, he said now he is.

[A]

Right. But, I mean, Connor's been kind of in and out and, you know, kind of came back for who fought Cerrone and then he fought that and he disappeared again. You know, he's kind of been so. I think a lot of these guys, you know, like, you brought up a high school team or a college team, they don't feel the same sense of warmth or duty. They feel like the UFC is a transactional entity to them.

[B]

Yeah, all right, I understand. I don't think we'll agree on this, but you're right, you know, I really don't. I'm just trying to make it a point that I still will not change my thought that it'll be hard to separate yourself from the greatness. Ben. I don't corner Ben.

[A]

No, I think you're right. I think Jon should have fought Tom.

[B]

Or in wrestling matches, I generally try not to sit in the corner if I don't have to.

[A]

Wait, why not?

[B]

Just because, man, I think, like, too many people are, like, on you. Like, the kids, they need their coach. But let's try to, like, you've been in such a big personality in wrestling the whole time you're coaching, they're talking about Ben Askren. Ben Askren. Ben Ask.

[A]

That's annoying. That's annoying. But that's what they've given up. Like, it's just Kellen Wilbert's on the.

[B]

Match, killing himself against the best kids in the country.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Everybody's watching but paying attention. Talking about Ben Askren.

[A]

Yeah, I agree, that's. It's unfortunate, but on that one, I just. I don't really see a easy solve. Solve for that one.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Hey, let's talk about 55. I want to talk about that.

[B]

Yeah. Or Monsaru Kian is not getting the title fight. The boss said the other day the reason is because he headbutted Dan Hook.

[A]

I don't know why he did that. That was really dumb.

[B]

You buying it?

[A]

No, I mean, this is one of those things. Well, I think this is one of those things that's very. Again, transactional. If Dana's a businessman. Patty Pimblett winning the title is the best Outcome. These are popular. You don't have a super, super popular. I mean, I guess maybe Tom Asmall, super popular, you know, British fighter type guy. He. You can really juice him up a lot. And Armin is not going to create the same response. I don't believe.

[B]

Why Armin. Armin eating food get millions of views? He eats food, he gets millions of views.

[A]

I don't know. I. I mean, I just don't think he thinks about that. I. I think Dana was mad about the. When he pulled out the one time.

[B]

You can't possibly think that he's holding on to that a year later when he fought and waited as a backup fighter.

[A]

I. I definitely think he is. And, you know, it's probably one of those things, like if something. Someone does something, you. You always have that in the back of your mind that that's a thing. And, you know, so that stays in his mind. The headbutt was, he probably shouldn't have done that. That was probably not a great idea on his part.

[B]

Is he so mad about.

[A]

I have no idea. I have no idea whatsoever. But, you know, it's like, yes, we made a few mistakes, but this guy, man, he sure has been good, and he's kind of been, you know, moderately dominant, and he's beat a bunch of good guys. It feels like he's the obvious number one at that weight class. He has a history where he had a decision with Makachev. It feels like a long time ago. I don't know when that was.

[B]

It was. It was. It was. It was in Russia. He took the fight on a week's notice and went to decision.

[A]

So I don't know if it feels like they're purposely skipping over him. It's nice that Ilya sounds like he's gonna come back fast because we can get this on the road then. Right. So the. The 255s are fighting next week. They fight, they get a winner. The UFC is obviously hoping for Pimble because there's a longer shelf life.

[B]

Ilia said he's back in, like, April. That's Miami.

[A]

Perfect. Right? So then you pop Ilya back in against Patty or Justin, and then you get Armand in there. Idea, you know, not too far after that. Maybe early fall or something like that. So we, we could. We can resolve this. Ideally, that's what happens. I think that's.

[B]

I. I don't think for a second that Ilya supporter fights in April and fights again in the fall.

[A]

Really? That's only twice a year.

[B]

Yeah, but when did Ilya Fight twice.

[A]

Look at his record now. You got me. See, I'm looking at records again. I actually feel like he was moderately active for a while.

[B]

Yeah, in the beginning. I don't think he fights often anymore.

[A]

All right, let me see. He fought once in 25. He did fight twice in 24. He fought October and February. He fought once in 23. He fought twice in 22. Once in 21, twice in 20. Twice in 19. Twice in 19. So mostly twos are ones to what I can find. He has never fought. Oh, my God. He's never fought three times in a year. That's nuts.

[B]

Even in the beginning.

[A]

No. He fought two in 2015, two in 2016, did not fight in 2017, two in 2018, two in 2019, two in 20. 20. One. Two. One, two, one.

[B]

So many.

[A]

Wait, wait, you hear that? One, two, one, two. One. We're due for two.

[B]

It might be two. If that's. If that's the pattern, right? Maybe. Maybe it's the pattern. People try to pose or paint that as if Ilia isn't fighting because now he's the champ, but it sounds like that's just the way that he's playing his career since the very beginning, where he's like, he's not going to overextend himself to make sure everybody else feel good about what they're doing. But Armin Tsarukian, while the UFC may not be in accord with most people's thinking, the fighters, though, have him on their mind. He said Patty Pimmel said, it's annoying that people are saying I'm ducking Armin. I've never been offered a fight against Armin. If I was ever offered that fight, I would have punched his head in by now.

[A]

That's what the ufc, but, you know, the UFC does this. Other people, they know, hey, Patty, we ain't going to make you feel like a bitch. We ain't going to make you turn it down. We're just going to offer it to you.

[B]

But he's saying we don't want to do that. But he's saying he wouldn't have turned.

[A]

It down, but they don't even want to make him turn it down.

[B]

How many of these guys beat. How many of these guys do you think Armin beats?

[A]

How many of the lightweights or how many.

[B]

What I'm talking Gaethje to And Patty Pimblett.

[A]

Well, I. I just saw. I think he beats Pimblett and Gaethje for sure. And I think him. I. I think very highly of Tapua. I I've said that many times on the show, so I think, I think that one's a toss up to me. But someone made the point earlier about how, how much older that lightweight division is. So we're going to get a, probably a turnover relatively soon.

[B]

You know, I saw that graph, I saw that graphic.

[A]

Yeah, Holloway, Gaii, Hooker. A lot of these guys are older, so I think we're going to get a turnover, you know, relatively soon here where there's a bunch of new guys juicing up the division.

[B]

I think about this situation and I know it's unfortunate that Ilot de Poirier is going through personal issues and we wish him all the best.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

I love though that he's saying he's going to come back very quick and get back to work. You know, it feels like the UFC believes and supports him in what he's going through because a lot of times they will just take the belt off someone. Dana said, hey, I'm going to wait for what?

[A]

It's just, it's just a marital dispute.

[B]

But he. Because before it was open ended. Right. We had no idea when he was coming back. Ilia Toporia told fans this April return date, it wasn't like he did an interview. He did this on like Twitter or something where he's answering questions and said, I'll be back in like April or May. If he fights in May, by the way, that would be one of the bigger May pay per views are.

[A]

Wait, there's no pay per view anymore, right?

[B]

Not pay per view. Sorry, I'm getting a little used to. That would be one of the bigger cards you bigger number events, numbered events in a while, in May. Because for a while May has been having fights that weren't the best. Remember one like it was UFC 301 was in May, the UFC in Canada when Amanda Nunez fought.

[A]

Yeah, I don't travel. I can't remember that damn schedule. Give me a break there.

[B]

I do it right. But it's like the main car generally is one that comes back a little bit, right? Because it's the one that's right after Miami that normally gets blown up really, really good.

[A]

Hey, did you realize UFC in 220, 324 and 325 are back to back weekends.

[B]

Yes, it is. I'm working.

[A]

I bet you did because I bet you're going to them. I didn't realize that. What the heck.

[B]

It's next weekend in Vegas, the following weekend in Australia.

[A]

You're go Australia. You're too famous. You should stop going to Australia. It's too far away. Too much flight.

[B]

I like. I like. I like Australia, actually.

[A]

I love. I love Sydney. But that's a lot. That's so much travel for you.

[B]

But Perth is. Perth is on the no travel list. I don't like to go to Perth.

[A]

But Sydney, well, that's the one that's all the way on the other side, right?

[B]

San Francisco to Austin. Sydney is only like 10 hours. It's not that bad.

[A]

No, but you're. No. Well, wrong.

[B]

12.

[A]

I think it's 16.

[B]

Louise, please.

[A]

I'm a geographer. I'm looking it up right now. I'm on fire.

[B]

Ben's got this mental clarity, and he's back to being annoying. He's back to doing 14 and a.

[A]

Half to 15 and a half hours. That was really wrong.

[B]

It's fun.

[A]

Well, you probably took a nap. You're probably in first class.

[B]

Before I let you go, who wins, Justin or Patty?

[A]

Oh, man, I'm cheering for Justin. Patty.

[B]

He.

[A]

He's for sure getting better. I was not impressed with a long time ago. I thought he lost to. Oh, who's the guy he trained at Rufus Some. He's a scrapper. Short, stocky. I know you talk about name right now, unfortunately, but. So I didn't think he was that good, but he's. He is significantly getting better. Right. And he's a lot younger than Justin. Justin's like. He's getting close. He's a little younger than me, so he's probably getting close to 40. I'll probably go, Patty. Unfortunately. I want Justin to win.

[B]

Patty Pimblett beat Jared Gordon.

[A]

Jared Gordon. That's it.

[B]

And that was that fight where people were mad at him because he thought he won. And it was crazy to be a great fight. This. This lightweight division is always fun. Right now it's even more.

[A]

We got. We got one topic left. I'm wearing you out tonight. See, I told you my. My energy back. Well, we got Connor versus George at the White House. Do you think this is going to happen? I have been on record for. I don't know how many are saying Connor's not gonna fight. I think it'd really be funny if he. If he came to Jesus and that made him fight because, you know, Jesus probably doesn't care about fighting, but I guess it gives him a platform. You never know. That would be funny if that was the case. I.

[B]

But why. Why did Dana say no? Chandler. Hey.

[A]

I felt so bad for my buddy.

[B]

Oh, Ben. I was just about to say Man. I was going to say, man, at this point, do you have to give it to Mike? I mean, he has waited and waited and waited for Conor McGregor.

[A]

Yeah, I. You know, Dana again, listen, I accept Dana for who he is, but he. See what. He sees it, which I kind of feel like it's weird. I mean, what I would be thinking if I was Dana is how do I give it to someone who can take the juice from Conor and then keep it going? Because George is also a little bit older. Right. And Chandler's a little bit older also. Both of them are. So, you know, I would be thinking, like, how. How can I it kind of fight someone maybe who's in his early 30s, right. So maybe that person has a handful of years left. But, yeah, I mean, Michael has pretty much been a great company guy. I think he's taken every fight.

[B]

They've said he's done it all.

[A]

He's done it all. He's put on all exciting fights. I don't think one of his fights has been boring. Obviously, his record has not been outstanding, but it was like. It just felt like if Conor comes back, that's what's happening. Michael waited around. I want to say, the first time he waited was like two years before he started seeing that fight. So it's like. Yeah, it just seems kind of not right.

[B]

It's almost like you have to just fight and hope. Because I honestly believe that if he'd have been fighting more frequently, the worse he would have done, the closer he would have gotten to the McGregor fight. Because I think McGregor wants someone that he can beat. He wants somebody to beat. Right. And if I'm the UFC, I want to see Conor McGregor get a victory on the South Lawn at the White House, because again, that's your biggest star having this moment on the biggest fight card of all time. But I just.

[A]

Wait, hold on, Daniel. But what you said earlier about Jon is, you know, you got to pass it on. So it's like this is one again where Dana's actually kind of in a tough spot. You know, I guess I feel like I kind of picking on Dana.

[B]

But Connor's not going to. But Connor's not going to not fight again if he.

[A]

Oh, you think so?

[B]

I think that if he makes it back, he'll fight.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

I don't know if it'll be three or four times. I think that he will fight, but.

[A]

At least once more than once.

[B]

I think he'll fight more than once. I believe that.

[A]

Yeah. I mean, that's. And that's Right. That's your ideal case. As he comes back for you, get him for two or three or four more. Otherwise, if he doesn't, if you think you're getting him for one, you try to get him to, you know, again, feed him to someone younger. I don't, I don't know who that's going to be exactly.

[B]

Armin. Put him in there with Army.

[A]

Army. I mean that. Right. That'd be a big one. Yeah, give. Give him someone who's young, a little younger, maybe late 20s, early 30s, got some shelf life in them and it's going to get out there another 10 times for you or something.

[B]

Yeah, I got one. Go.

[A]

Not. And listen, I'm not a fan of this guy. Picked on him many times. Machado Gary.

[B]

Yeah, because that would be like. Yeah, but here's the thing, though, right? I think if you think, Start thinking Machado Gary, you start thinking, hey, is it Machado Gary or does Machado Gary go fight one more time to earn his title fight or does a fight over Conor Gary gets the title fight? Yes. You think it does?

[A]

I think it does. I think. Because I think part of what we just talked about, Patty Pima, part of who gets the title shot, we actually talked about this on our last episode also is part of who gets a title shot is who do people care about? Yeah, 100%.

[B]

Hey, Ben, really fast, Conor McGregor said he's renegotiating because there's no more pay per view model. What's fair, though? How do you find a fair market value for a guy like Conor McGregor, who every time he fought, he moved the line for what a pay per view sales was. There was never a bottom line for a guy like Conor McGregor. How do you make a fair value for a guy whose whole business was rooted in pay per view?

[A]

Because. And because now, I mean, because the other thing you're saying is what UFC deal was it? Seven years.

[B]

Seven years.

[A]

Seven years.

[B]

Seven billion.

[A]

So there is no way in hell Conor McGregor is still fighting when they got to renegotiate this. So they're going to renegotiate. In six years, they're going to start renegotiating. Conor is not around then he will.

[B]

Not be fighting anymore.

[A]

There's no way in hell. Right. So it's almost like Conor's value, it's not like UFC gets paid more if Conor moves the needle. So you can't pay him that much because it's like, Conor, you're not really, you know, unfortunately, you're going to be retired in six Years. It's impossible. You're not. So you're not going to move the needle on our next negotiation. That's. It's a tough sell because you're asking me to spend money that I'm not going to get back.

[B]

You'll get me a bigger viewership, but it necessarily won't lead to more revenue.

[A]

Yeah, because I got to. Because I got to keep that going for six more years.

[B]

But he's still. But he still elevates the gate every time.

[A]

Well, but no, but that's the problem. What's the problem there.

[B]

But there's still a lot of money to be made. Right. His gates are going to always be bigger than everybody else.

[A]

But you're forgetting right now. You know what they said, right?

[B]

What?

[A]

There is no gate at the White House. They are not selling tickets.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So you can't even sell any tickets.

[B]

Yeah. Wow. So you common will have the chips that he thought he has.

[A]

I mean that's. You know, because. Yes. Do you. I mean to your point. You're correct. If. If Conor fights in New York city or somewhere.

[B]

$10 million gain. Almost.

[A]

Probably. Maybe more. Right.

[B]

Because didn't it his last gate in Vegas.

[A]

Boo. I don't know.

[B]

It was crazy.

[A]

I think it was more than that. McGregor, highest gate. Boom. Let's see. Conor Mc, highest gate. Yeah, he did. No. 17 million.

[B]

17. His gate.

[A]

Oh my gosh. Oh my. Dude, I totally forgot. Oh my. I'm going branded here. Dale. His gate for the chandler fight was 20 million. Before the fight?

[B]

Yeah, before he pulled out. Before the fight got canceled.

[A]

20 million.

[B]

He still has a lot of bargaining chips because there's no one else. It has a $20 million gate, man. So what's the fair number? 20 million to walk to the Octagon.

[A]

But if they can't sell. They can't sell tickets. Of course not.

[B]

You're kinda screwed. You're so stupid. All right, Ben, catch you guys on the next one. Hey guys, we got the clear minded Ben Askren. I'm Daniel Cormier. Until the next one. Peace.

[A]

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