← The Herd with Colin Cowherd
The Herd with Colin Cowherd
THE HERD - Hour 1 - Bill Belichick not being a first ballot Hall of Famer, what goes on in the voting room, Seth Wickersham
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This is an iHeart podcast guaranteed human I'm Colin Coward from the Herd. Whether you're a seasoned small business owner or thinking about getting started, you'll definitely want to check out season four of Mind the Business small business success stories from iHeartMedia's Ruby Studio and Inuit QuickBooks. In the latest season, hosts Austin Hanquitz and Jenise Torres are talking to self starters about the ins and outs of entrepreneurship and how QuickBooks helps you to get more done in less time. You don't want to miss it. Listen to Mind the Business Small business Success Stories on the iHeart app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. Hey, this is Levar Arrington here from up on Game. This message is brought to you by Apple Card. Apple Card members can earn unlimited daily cash back on everyday purchases wherever they shop. 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It is a Wednesday. People are fuming and outraged and enraged. It's the herd in Chicago. Wherever you may be, however you may be listening, good show today. Thanks for making us part of your day. So the interweb just went crazy last night. Jimmy Johnson's yelling, screaming, throwing pots and pans. Bill Belichick, in his first year of eligibility, did not get voted into the NFL hall of Fame. Now, let's start with this. He will. He's a Hall of Famer. He'll get in. And we don't know that. He didn't get 39 of the 50 votes. I'm sure he got a majority. So let's just start talking about. Is it possible, possible that what I'm about to explain to you went into consideration? Let me start with this. The winningest coach of all time, Don Shula, got to a Super bowl with Dan Marino, David Woodley and Earl Morrill. He had to wait five years until he was even eligible for the hall of Fame. But because of a tweak this year in the voting, and I don't like this at all, coaches now can get in one year removed from being out of the league. So the greatest players can't, but coaches can. Is it possible that a handful of voters, 1112 voters, went timeout the classiest guy ever, the winningest guy ever, the guy Belichick's been chasing forever, Don Shula had to wait five years to even be eligible. And now, because of a weird tweak, I got to put Belichick, who was a jerk forever. And that does matter. I'll get to that later. Some of these voters are writers. I'm going to put him in day one. Nah, I'll put him in next year. That gets me to the second part of this. If you take out one superstar quarterback in Belichick's career, he has a winning percentage below Jerry Glanville and equal to Anthony Lynn. With Brady, his team scored almost 29 points a game in, and he won 77% of his games without Brady. They scored 19 points and he wins 44%. And not only that, he was fired in Cleveland without him. Was about to get fired in New England before Drew Bledsoe got hurt. And then the minute Brady left, he put a defensive coordinator in at OC in the one year. And think about this. Mike Frabel is getting to a Super bowl with Drake May, who's not even a finished product. The current New England coach, Mike Vrabel, got a number one seed with Ryan Tannehill the 17th best quarterback in the league. Okay, Brady leaves and they can't score. They don't get offense. They're the worst drafting team in the league. I mean, Bill Parcells is his mentor. He won Super Bowls with Jeff Hostetler and Phil Sims. Was Parcells. Was. Was Belichick's mentor. He had to wait forever. Bill Parcells. Ask yourself if there was a great movie director who made 20 movies. In 12 of them, he had a superstar actor, and they won Oscars and they were amazing. In the eight other movies, he didn't have that one superstar actor, and they were unwatchable. Drek, Porky's two. Would it give you pause for five minutes to go? Was it the director or the actor? Even with a stacked roster, the one year Brady got hurt, they couldn't make the playoffs. And again, Vrabel got a number one seed with Ryan Tannehill. Okay, and here's the third part. I'm just asking you to consider it because Belichick is a hall of Famer and will get in the third part. What is the most valuable week of the year in pro football? What is the one week of the year that the league values the most? Super bowl week. And in 2007, it was tarnished because Belichick, footage of him taping another team, and Roger Goodell had to go to the super bowl and all week long address Belichick's cheating. Folks, you successful men out there, there is a tax in life. You can be a great husband for 45 years, but if your wife finds that one of those years you were cheating, you will sleep on the couch. At minimum, there is a tax to pay if the most valuable week of the year, you blew it up once because you were taping another team. So in review, Don Shula had to wait five years. Parcells, your mentor, waited forever. Your winning percentage is 44% without Brady, and you blew up a Super bowl week. If you have several asterisks by your name, is it okay to pause for a year? My staff also did an interesting thing this morning. We went and looked at some of the other great coaches to see how quickly they got in. Vince Lombardi, you know, the guy they named the trophy after, did not get in first year eligible. Bill Walsh, the most innovative coach in the history of the league. Half the league uses his offense. Did not get in. First year eligible. Joe Gibbs. In unquestionably three Super Bowls with three different quarterbacks. The most underrated coach in the history of the league. Joe Gibbs. First year eligibility doesn't get in. Jimmie Johnson waited forever. Parcells waited. Andy Reid will have to wait. But because they tweaked, and I don't agree with this, they tweaked the voting so that coaches can now get right in. Somebody said Walsh didn't get in, Lombardi didn't get in, Gibbs didn't get. Make him wait a year. They may not be punishing Belichick. They're punishing the voting methodology. So again, let's. Let's not argue that Bill is a Hall of Fame coach. Yes, absolutely. I would have voted him in. But when you change the voting methodology, I mean, this is what Biden and Trump argue lines. Where do you vote? Who's voting for who? Who's. I mean, we can't even get our presidential election voting right. You cheated. You rigged it. You. I mean, hall of Fame voting's always been wonky. I mean, baseball's got a morality clause, football doesn't. But. But when you change it, sometimes stuff like this happens. He's getting in. But if you take a deep breath, I think you have to. When Brady left, went to Tampa, won a Super bowl, and Bill's teams were awful. DC to OC doesn't that make you pause a little bit? I mean, what makes Christopher Nolan and Spielberg and the great director so amazing? They use all sorts of actors and writers and they can do it. That's what makes Joe Gibbs and Parcells and the great code, Bill Walsh. And when Andy Reid gets to Super Bowls with guys not named Mahomes, Andy Reid wins with everybody. You take out Brady, you can't pause for a year and go again. You guys are all freaking out. He's getting in. He deserves to be in. But you start looking at the methodology. I do not like the idea that players have to wait for half a decade to be eligible and coaches can get in immediately. That makes. No, it's a players league, not a coach's league. I mean, I love Andy Reid. He wasn't oyster trophies till Mahomes. How about this? Bill can get in once Tom's in. Since there's an argument to be made he was going to get fired. Belichick in New England would have failed at both jobs, had a surly reputation, and may have never had any of this debate because he didn't get another head job. Brady's eligible and what, 20, 28? Bill's eligible now. You like that? I don't like that. J. Mac, before I go to my next story, I think it's interesting because when you start Looking at who gets in and the eligibility. Baseball's hall of Fame is weird because they put in morality clauses and, you know, like, are you a good person? Did you cheat? And there's been great consternation and debate on that. The NFL doesn't do that. But there are people voting on this who covered Bill. I mean, he wouldn't talk to, I know two hall of Fame voters he refused to talk to. For 15 years. He held grudges. He could be petty, he could be difficult. And every business, including football coaching, is a, is a people business. There was a reason when Jimmie Johnson got in on the set, all the other men there cried because Jimmy had been good to a lot of people. Belichick doesn't even have a coaching tree. I mean, seriously. I mean, it's like Sean McVay, relative to Belichick's been in the league 45 minutes. He's got a coaching forest. So, like, there, there, there is something to be said in your life. It's not a morality thing, but if you, if you dump on people, if you're difficult. Bobby Knight's life ended sadly while he was still coaching. Not, I'm not talking his health deterioration. I'm talking his last eight, nine years of coaching. He bullied people, he alienated people. Even Coach K. Like, stop connecting with him. Coach K is like, I'm not going to deal with you. I'm not going to talk with you. If you treat people like that, nobody's saying you won't get in. Howard Stern took forever to get into the hall of Fame and radio. Why? He made fun of the hall of Fame and radio. Everybody knew he and Rush Limbaugh dominated American radio. But if you poke people in the ribs, you're difficult, you mock you, you rip you. Well, don't be surprised if there's a Little bit a 12 month tax on your actions and personality. Just a little bit of a tax. You sleep on the couch for a night or two. That's all I'm saying.
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But can you still take the whole hall of Fame vote? Seriously, Colin, if when you see all the 15, 20, 30 names up eligible for the hall of Fame and you go through them, you see Bill Belichick saying, that's an automatic. He's in. He's one of my top.
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Let's look at the precedent. I mean, let's look at the precedent. Why wasn't that the case with parcels or Jimmy Johnson or Vince Lombardi or Bill Walsh or Joe Gibbs? The damn trophy guy didn't get in.
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Well, Belichick has more trophies, I think, than all those guys.
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Maybe more trophies. It's a different world. But if they're, if you literally have a trophy named after you, you think you would have got in rather quickly.
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And it was in his infancy then. Back then, you know, it was really early. I'm just curious, are you surprised by the whole Kraft situation? You know, he's been waiting, I think, 14 years to get into the hall of Fame, and now he would have gone in with Belichick if they both got in this time. And by all accounts, it sounds like Kraft's getting in and Belichick is not. Interesting subplot, given their ugly ending in New England. Remember that?
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Beyond ugly.
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I mean, they initially said it was a, There's a mutually parting of ways. Ten months later, craft on record. Oh, I fired him. You know, I took a risk on that guy. It's been ugly between those two. I think the subplots here are fascinating. Colin.
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Yeah, and I, and again, Bill's getting in. He may have gotten 39 of the 50 votes, but remember, in the football voting, five people are eligible. You only get a vote for three. It's just ridiculous. So all these hall of Fame votes are, I mean, voting in America for presidents is convoluted, difficult redistricting. I mean, we, this is what we argue about every four years. This side cheated, this redistrict voting, like, for this stuff. All voting is weird. It should be more transparent. I think when you vote for a Hall of Fame, you should be able to go in and say somebody gets in or they don't. It shouldn't be limited to I can vote for 2 of 5 or 3 of 5. Bill Belichick, do you think he's in or not? Yes.
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Yes.
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You shouldn't qualify it based on. Well, I, I've got to let this guy in and that guy not it. So the, the whole thing, I, I, I don't mind a handful of sports writers who covered the league forever being part of it. I would put executives, coaches, few of those. Like, if you're an observer to something, you can have a right to vote in any hall of Fame. It could be radio. I mean, I was just in a radio hall of Fame dinner. There were executives, there were hosts, there were local, there were syndicated, there were sales people there. You know, all sorts of people matter in any business.
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But you're right, the voting, like, I love Roger Craig. You know, they, Roger Craig on the Niners, the high stepping, tough running back. He's awesome. How could you vote Roger Craig in the hall of Fame over Bill Belichick. Like, on no level does that make an ounce of sense. Remember, that's just one guy.
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I'm just saying. But Bill is going to get in.
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He is? Yeah.
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He's just sleeping on the couch for a year. How about that? All right. Mike McCarthy is official. He is the Steeler coach. Big Ben says something I think's worth noting. That's next. That's the hurt. Be sure to catch live editions of the Herd, weekdays at noon Eastern, 9am Pacific, on Fox Sports Radio, FS1, and the iHeartRadio app. Hey, it's Ben, host of the Fifth Hour with Ben Maller. Would mean a lot to have you join us on our weekly auditory journey. You're asking, what in God's name is the fifth Hour? I'll tell you. It's a spin off of the Ben Mather Show, a cult hit overnights on fsr. Why should you listen? Picture if you will, a world where we chat with captains of industry in media, sports and more every week. Explore some amazing facts about human nature and more. Listen to the fifth hour with Ben Mather on the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcast or wherever you get your podcast. I'm Colin Coward from the Herd. Whether you're a seasoned small business owner or thinking about getting started, you'll definitely want to check out season four of Mind the Business small business success stories from iHeartMedia's Ruby Studio and Inuit QuickBooks. Mind the Business is part entertainment, part instruction manual, part inspiration. Each episode features practical tips and success stories that will resonate with entrepreneurs in any industry. In their latest season, hosts Austin Henkiewicz and Jenise Torres are covering topics on the forefront of running a small business. They're talking to self starters about everything from how AI helps them work smarter to weathering market uncertainties and enjoying the benefits of being your own boss. And using Inuit QuickBooks to help you get more done in less time. You won't want to miss it. Listen to Mind the Business Small business success Stories on the iHeart app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. New Year, new goals and in this economy, a better money plan is more necessary than ever. I am Matt and I'm Joel. We are from the how to Money Pod. Every week we help you to spend smarter, save more and make sense of what's going on out there. If you want 2026 to be the year you finally feel in control of your money, we're here to give you the tools and advice to help you make it happen. Listen to how to Money on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. So Mike McCarthy, at the end of yesterday's show, was hired as the Pittsburgh Steelers coach. I thought Ben Roethlisberger, you know, along with Terry Bradshaw have been the two great quarterbacks in Steeler history. And Big Ben says, here's the one thing about Mike McCarthy that is a game changer in Pittsburgh. I think you bring, you bring a new, a new voice into the locker room because sometimes the message can get repetitive and can get, you call it stale, but it can just get repetitive. We finally have an offensive minded coach.
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In here that we've, we've never had, I believe Chuck Knowles defense as well, I assume. You know, in all the defensive head.
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Coaches we've had, I'm so excited for an offensive minded coach because I think.
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We have to score more than six points in a playoff game.
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Yeah, like this is why Mike McCarthy isn't a bad hire. He's safe. He's a little uninspiring. It reminds me this week I watched a movie on Netflix called RIP with Matt Damon and Ben Affleck and the critics are like, well, it did not elevate the genre. Now get out of here either do your columns. Oh, it was a terrible, it was a, it was a weak swing. Not every painting's a Picasso and not every hire is Sean McVeigh. Doesn't make it a terrible movie. It doesn't make it a terrible hire. I was entertained for 90 minutes with Matt and Ben and I will say this, McCarthy, if Aaron Rodgers plays next year, probably wins 10 games. I mean, folks, John Malkovic, maybe our greatest living actor, did Con Air. Okay, not everything is art, even in a world of art. And this is an organization not only seven straight years of a bottom 10 offense. No, it's worse than that. In the last seven years, they have the 32nd ranked run game. And you can say what you want about McCarthy, but if he and Aaron Rodgers next year together, I'll take the over on wins at 9 or 10. I really will. I mean, in Dallas one year, Mike McCarthy one season had the number four total offense. Cooper Rush started five games, Dak got hurt. And they had one legit receiver, CD Lamb. And they finished with the number four offense in the league. So the Steelers have been in the wilderness offensively for seven to eight years. I consider Mike McCarthy the compass that gets them back to offensive civilization. They'll be competent, they'll spend more money. Again, not every movie is Goodfellas RIP on Netflix. It's entertaining. I'm sitting there, my wife's like, you want to watch a movie? I watch and I make her watch football all season. I'm like, I'll watch it. It's entertaining. It's not Scorse. It's not the Irishman. It's not, you know, it's not one of Christopher Nolan's best. It was entertaining. Mike McCarthy's fine. You know, he's an emotional guy. I mean, here he was yesterday. It's hard not to root for a guy who starts crying at the mic oftentimes.
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Coaches and players, you know, you put.
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On new team colors and it takes. It takes a minute to feel comfortable in those new colors. But to be blessed beyond any measure one day to put on the colors you wore since you brought home. I apologize. I understand and embrace the responsibility, the privilege and the weight that comes with this stewardship, this city, this franchise, this fan base means the world to me because Pittsburgh's my world. And it's just awesome to be back here. I mean, what, am I going to root against that guy? Would I have no soul? Of course I'm going to root for him. I want to see him win. I just got tired of the repetitive defensive spending. There'll be more of an offensive organization. I agree with Big Ben. I'm excited to see it. And I hope Aaron Rodgers does come back. I mean, J. Mac said seven wins. If Aaron and Mike McCarthy are together next year, I'll say it right now to 10 win teams. Not saying it's winning anything beyond that. It's a 10 win team. Go ahead. You doubted me on the Patriots and the Seahawks. J. Mac. J. Mac with the news. No, no, no. Turn on the news.
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This is the Herd line news.
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Do it at your own peril.
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I'm scrambling to look up the Steelers opponents for next year, but we'll do that later in the show. We got some breaking news. The Browns have announced they have hired Todd Monkin. Yes. Todd Monkin is going to be the new head coach in Cleveland. He was the Ravens OC with Harbaugh. Todd Monken, 59 years old. Interesting nugget from the Athletic. Monkin was in Cleveland as the OC in 2019 and allegedly told opposing teams coaches the Browns were a mess. Sorry. A total mess. Which is not really a surprise. I do say I think the Monk and Shedeur pairing is good news for Shador Sanders because Monkin is a. Is a pretty sharp offensive guy. I won't talk about the game plan against the Chiefs in the AFC championship, that cost me money. But overall, I think Monken, kind of a good offensive mind could do. Could work well with Shador. It sounds like Jim Schwartz, their DC who was highly thought of and was up for the job is going to be leaving. He wants nothing to do with Cleveland.
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Yeah, I mean, it's fine. I think when you, I mean, when's the last time the sixth or seventh hire in a coaching cycle was the game. Great hire. I think it could work fine. I think Cleveland has been a mess. I wouldn't have let go of Stefanski who interviewed for every top job. But it's Cleveland. So this is what they do. I think it's. I mean, I, there's not a single coaching hire. I'm, I'm like, oh, that is destined to be a failure. I think Jesse Mentor is going to do really well in Baltimore. I think John Harbaugh is going to crush with the New York Giants. And I think eventually, if Penix can be healthy, whatever they do at quarterback, I think Stefanski will do very well in Atlanta after that. I mean I. The rest of the hires, Joe Brady and Buffalo Todd Monken, I mean it's. You got a lot of. You got a great quarterback and you got some really good players. So I mean, can he win seven games next year? Certainly possible.
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Yeah.
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I mean somebody's making the point that hey, the two teams in the super bowl this year, they weren't in the playoffs last year. Anybody can do it. Let's just pump the brakes on that. Okay. Drake May, they had their quarterback in New England. I'm sorry, I don't think Shedeur is in the Drake May class. I don't think he's a franchise guy. He'll get a year, he'll get a crack at it, sure. But the Browns have a major uphill climb. Offensive skill position players are so weak. I just, I mean, good luck to Todd Monkin, first head coaching job at 59. Proud, happy for the guy. All right, let's move on to the Patriots. Colin Drake May, the second year quarterback in the Super Bowl. There are, you know, let me say this. There's speculation he may have an injured shoulder on his throwing arm. Mike Vrabel was asked about it yesterday and said, hey, this time of the year nobody's 100%. Then May went on a weekly radio spot on WEI and had this to say about a potential injury.
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I'm feeling good. We got some extra rest and really only thing is from the game, I think just A built up of throwing for this is what almost including training camp. 30 weeks straight of throw in and.
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And four days a week. It can add up, but not that.
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We got some extra rest and I'm feeling good and you're ready to go for Super Bowl.
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Sounds like some excuses for a guy who's throwing at 55% completions in the playoffs. Colin, I like Drake May again. You go back to our draft stuff. Everybody loved Jaden. I said no. Drake May is my guy. You can look it up. I just. He's been awful this postseason. There is no argument. And don't give me this weather. It was a 1/2 of bad weather against the Broncos.
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Okay, so he's very young. And also the offensive line for the Patriots is absolutely the weak part of their team. And it should be noted the Texans and the Broncos may have the two best pass rushes in the league against his really average O line. These have not been great matchups. I look at it the other way. The fact that they were able to score enough points to win when the weakness of their team is O line. And I think it's the number one question in the Seahawks Patriots super bowl can they block the Seahawks O line Because Seattle will score on New England. Seattle JSN is going to get his catches. Seattle is going to score on New England some. The question is can they move the ball in that Seahawks defense. Now the all they have to do if you're the Patriots is watch the Matt Stafford film because he went through it twice. Hot knife through butter. So I think it's going to be a really good super bowl. Right. Today I would take the Patriots and the points. I think four and a half, five points for this football team that's won 16 to 17, who's going to hear for two weeks they have no chance to win. I think vrabel's brilliant. Josh McDaniel, Drake May good defense been here before. I think it's a really good Super Bowl. Wow.
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Okay. All right, let's go to the final story con that's the LA Superchargers. They have Mike McDaniel as their new OC. People are downright giddy out here. I'm not even kidding, Colin. There is so much excitement for pairing Mike McDaniel with Justin Herbert. And here's McDaniel talking about Herbert ceiling and just how damn good of a quarterback he is.
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Not relying too heavily on. On Justin's ability to do above and beyond. I think is critical to maximize those types of. Types of opportunities. You know, that'll be one of the first things that we'll try to do is, you know, take a little off his plate so that he is free to do that. When you know his greatness is required, you try to take it off of him by creating some low cost, high reward offense that you know he's firmly capable of doing, but maybe a player of lesser talent would be capable of doing as well. Yeah, it's going to work. You know, there's certain things that are going to work. John Harbaugh, New York, they're going to do fine. Mike McDaniel, OC in LA. That's going to work. I mean there's certain things. By the way, Brian Dable, offensive coordinator with Salah down in Tennessee, I'm. They're going to double their win total. I don't know how great they are, but you got one of the best offensive minds, an excellent offensive coach. Tennessee's got a fortune they can spend on players. There's three things I think are absolutely true. Harbaugh doubles the win total, the Chargers offense is suddenly really good and Tennessee crushed it. And they don't crush a lot in Tennessee. Tennessee crushed it this year in the coaching cycle.
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Coordinator, head coach so Colin, this is a interesting mix. You've got Harbaugh who is very quirky, right? Is that a good word for, for Jim Harbaugh? He's a little quirky. He's a little quirky. Some of the stuff he says. The interview. Exactly. McDaniel, the smart guy from Yale, not really a football guy. Harbaugh's one of These are like McDaniel's the opposite. And then you've got Herbert who I think you had said back in the day he was like a 40 student at Oregon who was a bio major or something like that. You have a really interesting trio. This is for me would be a great team. The league would spotlight in like a Hard Knocks or one of these shows. I'm very interested. You know, we go to Vegas a lot. This will be one of the few teams I bet to win the super bowl next year. I think this team is really making a leap. Colin Wow.
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J Mac with the news. Well, that's the news and thanks for stopping by the Herd line news. Now I said this earlier. Major League Baseball has a morality clause in their hall of Fame and football doesn't. But that doesn't mean treating people poorly for 20 years. That's not a morality issue, that's a personality issue. And if you know people who cover you, you probably shouldn't Treat them really, really poorly. You know, if you build walls and make enemies, don't be shocked if nobody shows up to your birthday party. Belichick went out of his way to make people uncomfortable. Who covered him? It shouldn't matter, folks. It matters. It matters in your job. It always. Every single business, including mine, is a people business. Doesn't mean I love everybody I've ever worked for, but there's no reason to spit on them. And Belichick has no coaching tree, his way or the highway relative to how long he's been in the league. McVay's got seven guys in the league, so, I mean, he doesn't get along with Bob Kraft, who's probably trusted more than any owner by Roger Goodell. Bob Kraft made him the richest coach in the league. Won't speak to him. Tom Brady, who, by the way, kind of saved his career to some degree, never had dinner in 20 years with him, never broke bread once. I mean, Belichick was 5 and 13 in New England, and Brady started okay, and the winds started cascading downhill. And so again, you say it shouldn't matter. I mean, you are completely naive if you think a museum or a Hall of Fame in any industry, if you whiz on people, you build walls, you make enemies, you mock and poke and you think they're all going to go, come on in first eligibility. They're not. I mean, that's. It's. And I know powerful rich guys think they're always going to get their way, but they don't win every election and they don't always get their way. And Bill's going to get in. And again, I understand that some people are just grumpy and closed off and don't have big personalities. Nobody's saying you have to be a Boy Scout. Nobody's saying you have to come in and give the sports writers apples and cookies. But, I mean, Bill was difficult with his owner. No dinner. The other day, Jules Edelman, Julian Edelman, was asked on a podcast, do you ever remember Bill doing something nice for you? He's like, oh, he drafted me. I mean, everything had to be difficult. And again, that doesn't mean Bill doesn't have a heart, doesn't mean he's a bad dad. It doesn't mean anything. But I'm saying, we're talking about first year of eligibility. Anonymous Voting into a Hall of fame. He may have ticked off 11 people. For the record, the 11 that didn't vote him in, if that's the number, probably would vote him in. Next year. So everybody is everybody. There's an old saying about everybody learns at a different rate. It's the same way with hall of Fames. Everybody gets in at a different rate. Sometimes it's first bout Derek Jeter. I mean, in the history of baseball hall of Fames, I think I'm right on this. I don't have it in front of me. Nobody's ever got. Has anybody ever gotten 100% of the vote? You think like, Hank Aaron would get 100% of the vote? I don't know if anybody's ever gotten 100% of the vote in the Baseball hall of Fame. I can see one of my producers scrambling. I'm sure it's possible, but I mean, I grew up with Johnny Bench. Johnny Bench, he was the best catcher for like 15 years in baseball. He won titles, he hit for power. He was. They had the best arm. He threw out the runners. I remember when he got in, I'm like, not everyone. How do you not vote for him? I don't even understand that. I mean, Mariano Rivera was the greatest closer of all time. Did he get 100% of the votes? Did Mariano. Is he the only one? He is. Okay. Mariano Rivera, there you go. Is the only player ever. So you're going to tell me a guy that pitched seven pitches in his usual outing gets in and there's all these great pitchers, starting pitchers, wear and tear. 20 years. So I mean, it's the closer. And hey, I got no problem with Mariano Rivera getting in with 100% of the vote. I got. No, he's one of the classiest guys ever. But could you make this argument of all the great baseball players ever, Babe, Ruth, Mantle, Koufax is part of the reason Mariano Rivera, because it wasn't innings pitched. One of the reasons he got 100% of the votes, because he's the nicest guy that's ever played that Mariano Rivera is the classiest, nicest human being that has maybe ever played the game. He didn't get it because the innings pitched. He also blew a World Series against Arizona. You could have argued he gets 98% of the vote. He got 100. And I think a lot of it is he was so gracious, he was so humble, he was so decent and he was great. But there's been a lot of great in baseball. It's the Herd. Be sure to catch live editions of the Herd, weekdays at noon Eastern, 9am Pacific. Once a year, Seth Wickersham stops by the show, senior writer at ESPN New York Times Best Selling Author. I don't know how he's a senior writer anywhere since he looks like Joe Burrow's younger brother, but Seth is now joining us live. The man does not age. But let's. Let's get to the football stuff. How are you doing, Seth? So I made the argument with the voting methodology changing. We all know Belichick's a Hall of Famer, that now coaches can get right in, players still can't. It's like, wait, so. So Brady has to wait till 2028. Belichick can get right in. Is some of this maybe. Maybe voters saying, well, Lombardi Walsh waited, Shula waited, Gibbs waited. It's okay if Bill waits a year. Is some of it just the methodology. Methodology change in the voting?
- [37:04]
C
Well, thanks, man. And you know, look, if you have Burrow on the show, maybe, you know, don't mention that I look like his little brother. I think that would probably lead to some awkward content. I think that there is something to the methodology change, but not quite that, I think. So this is interesting is that like a couple years ago, they changed the groups of people who get in, and they created the hall of Fame, did. Created this hodgepodge of senior players, coaches, and contributors. So this is why, in case your viewers are wondering, we have Bill Belichick up against Roger Craig and Ken Anderson, the quarterback for the Bengals in the 70s, to make it into the hall of fame. And there's 50 voters, and they can vote for three candidates. And I think that's where things got really tricky. I think that there are some voters who didn't vote for him because of Spygate and because of the, you know, the cheating and the rule breaking that happened during that time. And then I think there's a lot of voters who tried to vote for their guys with the assumption that Belichick was going to get in. And I think they figured that it was a fait accompli.
- [38:17]
A
Yeah.
- [38:17]
C
And so because of that, it's like this perfect storm of, you know, dysfunction where a guy who has eight super bowl rings and is the second winningest coach of all time, greatest coach, at least of the super bowl era in the NFL, didn't get in. I think that's what happened.
- [38:35]
A
Spygate. Listen, a lot of coaches, Bill Coward, Jimmy Johnson have said, you know, a lot of people were taping. I made the argument the most valuable week of the year in American sports, and Certainly for the NFL Super bowl week, Roger Goodell in 2007 had to answer questions for six days. And it. It burned a lot of bridges. I mean, and Bill's good at bridge burning and being a little petty. Spygate is that, you know, baseball's got a morality clause. NFL doesn't. Do you think that turned off a few voters at least one time?
- [39:08]
C
Yeah, and I think that Belichick was probably. Look, they were taping from the illegal location for seven years before they got caught. You know, the league had sent Belichick three letters warning him to stop, and he didn't do it then. I think Belichick's paying also a price for the way that the investigation was conducted, which was really a matter of days. It's kind of astonishing to think about now, but here you had this, like, longtime taping operation, and Ernie Adams and Bill Belichick, two of the best football minds at the time, in the middle of it, and three Super Bowls won by a total of nine points by that moment in time. And really what happened was that, you know, they started the investigation and closed it within a week. And Jeff Pash, the general counsel for the NFL at the time, went to Gillette Stadium and stomped tapes into pieces in a conference room, leaving it for the Patriots executives to clean up, by the way. So there was, like, an entire perception that the league was covering up and swept all this stuff under the rug for Belichick and for Robert Kraft. And that really came back around on Deflategate, where we wrote about how that was a, quote, makeup call for Spygate. And I still think that there's some of that lingering. You know, there's. You know, we wrote about Bill Polian in the article. You know, those teams that had to compete against Belichick haven't forgotten those things.
- [40:29]
A
That's right.
- [40:30]
C
But I also think that, you know, for some of the writers in the room, they're not as personally offended as maybe someone like Tony Dungy or Bill Belichick would be.
- [40:39]
A
Do we know you got to get 40 out of 50 votes? He could have gotten 39. I mean. I mean, my take is we don't know what the vote total is. Seth, do you have any idea what the vote total was?
- [40:51]
C
I don't. And I do know that this is a piece of reporting from my colleague Don Van Natta, who we worked on the story together. Belichick was expecting that he was going to get 49 votes. Like, privately, that was his expectation that he would get 49 votes. And obviously, he didn't come close to 40. And I think that that's pretty interesting. And again, how that happened is really difficult. Like, it wasn't like the hall of Fame wanted us to break this story yesterday. They didn't. And a lot of the voters didn't know that Belichick hadn't gotten in. You see a lot of their reactions on social media and they were blowing up Don and I's phones for sure. Saying, like, this is an embarrassment for all of us. We had no idea that Belichick didn't get in.
- [41:33]
A
You know, I said the only. I was told by my producer the only baseball hall of Fame inductee to get 100% of the vote was Mariano Rivera. And I said it's not because he was the most productive. It's because he was great and the most humble, gracious human being that's arguably ever played. It does matter. We're all in a people business. And Bill held grudges to this day and can be petty and maybe there's a voter that was. I do think when you build up walls, you may lose a vote or two. You don't want to hear that, you know, football doesn't have a morals clause like baseball. But people are human. I mean, I mean, I think that probably cost him a couple of votes. No.
- [42:18]
C
Well, my guess would be that there wasn't someone who was going to vote for him who didn't vote for him because of that. But it may have not, you know, it may have given some people the impetus to say, hey, let's vote for Roger Craig and Elsie Greenwood and Robert Kraft.
- [42:35]
A
Right.
- [42:35]
C
Because again, I think the assumption among the voters was that Belichick was going to get in. And so this result was as surprising for them as it was for the rest of us. You know, Bill Belichick was called by the hall of Fame on Friday as like a courtesy call to say that, you know, you didn't get in. You know, don't come to Santa Clara and wait around for a knock on your hotel door. It's not going to happen. And I think that, like, he was certainly disappointed by that, you know, as one could expect because again, it wasn't just the narrative that, you know, he's clearly a first ballot hall of Famer. It's that he himself expected that he would get at least 49 votes.
- [43:15]
A
One more question, two minutes. You talked to Sean Payton after the loss. He got beat up a lot, maybe deservedly so. For the fourth down call, I didn't mind going for it. I did not like a rollout to a backup quarterback. Bo Nick's rolling out is different than Jarrett Stidham rolling out. What did he say?
- [43:33]
C
Yeah, Yeah, I spent a lot of time with Sean Payton. I mean, you know, I was in his office and the. In next to the locker room in the stadium when he walked in after the game. And I mean, he was a weathered and beaten and somewhat in shock person. And he said, you know, I can't believe we lost that game. And the first thing he said was, he goes that fourth down. And, you know, about 20 minutes later, I did talk to him about that. And I think that, like, he kind of philosophically was where you are. I think that he wanted to go for it. The Broncos have generally, you know, each team has different metrics or philosophies when it comes to first downs. The Broncos have a general philosophy that if you drive down the field and you're moving the ball, which they were, you go for it.
- [44:19]
A
If you get the ball off a.
- [44:20]
C
Turnover, you take the three points. So they were moving the ball. Sean had called a run, and the defense that they came out in surprised him. So he called a timeout and he switched to a pass. And that's where I think he made the mistake. I think that. And I think that he. He regrets the rollout pass and he wishes he had just stuck with the play call that they had before or, or by the way, gone to the line, tried to draw them offsides, if they had failed, kick the field goal. I think those are the things he's thinking about now. But when I talked to him, I didn't sense a lot of regret for going forward on, on fourth down right there. He. He told me, he goes, I wanted it to be 14 nothing. You know, I think that what he regrets is what happened after the timeout and the fact that they, and this is, you know, look, it's not just Sean Payton's fault. Mike Rabel, they had studied the Patriots defenses on short yardage in the red zone, and they were mostly a man to man defense. And they came out and played zone surprise, the Broncos.
- [45:18]
A
And then that.
- [45:18]
C
That play had no chance because of it.
- [45:21]
A
Seth Wickersham, senior writer, espn. Been there more than two decades. He always joins us on late notice. Great stuff on Belichick and Peyton. Thank you so much, Seth. I appreciate it.
- [45:31]
C
My pleasure, man. Great to see you, as always.
- [45:33]
A
All right. Yeah, there, there is there just a lot of things. So much of hall of Fame voting, you know, everybody wants to now blow it up and start over. By and large, the people in the hall of Fames deserve to be in hall of Fame. There's every hall of Fame. It could be the Culinary hall of Fame, if there is such a thing. There's some chef who was nice to people and, you know, didn't make the greatest food. Okay. Like, there's. There's always those kind of on the margins people that get into hall of Fames, I think they overwhelmingly, eventually get it right. We just don't like the timing of this. We don't love the timing of it. Bill Belichick is getting in, and he may have gotten 39. He may have been one vote shy. This wasn't zero to 50. Nobody gave him a vote. I'm pretty sure of that. Hour two next. This is an iHeart podcast. Guaranteed Human.