THE HERD - Hour 3 - John Hollinger from The Athletic joins The Herd

Summary

The Herd with Colin Cowherd: Hour 3 – John Hollinger from The Athletic (May 26, 2026)

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Episode Overview

This episode of The Herd dives deep into the latest NBA storylines, focusing on the unprecedented New York Knicks playoff run, strategic challenges for Eastern Conference contenders like the Cavaliers and Celtics, the evolving state of the Thunder-Spurs series, and big-picture NBA issues including flopping and potential superstar movement. Colin welcomes NBA analyst and former Memphis Grizzlies exec John Hollinger (The Athletic) for detailed analysis, then pivots to a post-interview discussion with Jeff Goodman covering the Celtics, Knicks, and NBA draft intrigue. The tone is sharp, analytical, and often candid, as Colin and his guests dissect both on-court action and roster-building drama.

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1. Knicks’ Dominant Playoff Run (03:25 – 05:11)

• Historic Streak:
  John Hollinger describes the Knicks’ 11-game winning streak as “the most dominant 11-game stretch in NBA history, not just playoff history” thanks to their scoring margin. This run claims both the top two 10-game stretches in league history during the streak.

  • “There's nowhere to hide a bad defender against them and it just took off.” (John Hollinger, 04:19)
  • The offensive shift, especially putting the ball in Karl-Anthony Towns’s hands, has made them less predictable and hard to guard.

• Coaching Impact:
  Mike Brown’s decisions, especially keeping the starting lineup steady and shifting the offense from the “Jalen Brunson pound-a-thon” of the Thibodeau era, earn praise for unlocking more dimensions.

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2. Cavaliers’ Offseason Dilemma and Roster Constraints (05:11 – 07:54)

• Roster Paradox:
  Colin suggests the Cavs face an “autopsy” after a rough playoff exit. Hollinger outlines the team’s financial inflexibility, noting their cap is tied up with Donovan Mitchell, Mobley, Harden (projected to be re-signed), and Jarrett Allen.

  • “To cut enough salary to get below the first apron to do a sign and trade...becomes very tricky.” (John Hollinger, 05:46)

• LeBron Rumors:
  Bringing back LeBron seems remote unless drastic moves (dumping multiple contracts) are made, which is “almost their only choice” given their limited wiggle room.

• Coaching Stability:
  Kenny Atkinson, while not originally the GM’s pick, has done well but may be the only variable Cleveland can change given financial constraints.

  • “…the only thing you can change because you're so locked in with the roster.” (John Hollinger, 07:05)
  • Game 1’s 22-point blown lead casts a shadow on his status.

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3. Spurs vs. Thunder Game 5 Preview & Flopping Debate (07:54 – 12:06)

• Tonight’s Game Outlook:
  With A.J. Mitchell out and Jalen Williams doubtful, Hollinger sees Spurs-Thunder as a “true toss-up.” The series swings as teams adjust to each other—OKC must now counter the Spurs’ defensive tweaks against Shai Gilgeous-Alexander.

  • “It's just the ebb and flow of a playoff series between evenly matched teams.” (John Hollinger, 08:18)

• Flopping vs. Tanking:
  Colin presses on flopping becoming a bigger story than league tanking. Hollinger pushes back hard:

  • “Tanking was horrendous this year. There are eight different teams that were losing on purpose...makes it unwatchable.” (John Hollinger, 09:35)
  • On flopping: SGA not the worst offender; numbers don’t suggest he’s drawing excessive free throws unfairly. Flopping “is a lot of to do about a pretty small thing.”
  • Fines and technicals for flopping exist but are rarely applied; threshold for penalty is high—“it's when you do the whole to do and flail your arms and like end up three rows in the crowd, which isn’t really what Shea or most of these guys are doing.” (John Hollinger, 11:28)

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4. Chet Holmgren’s Struggles & Series Prediction (12:06 – 14:10)

• Chet’s Challenges:
  Holmgren “hasn’t been able to get to the rim” due to Wembanyama and “takes so long to load up his three-point shot that he’s been run off the line.” Defensive alignments have pushed him to play more as a forward than as a center, limiting his impact.

  • “His motion is slow enough that he hasn't really been threatening enough to open the floor for them.” (John Hollinger, 12:58)

• Series Prediction:
  Hollinger leans slightly OKC at home but is “a little worried” about their offense without Jalen Williams. Suggests Hartenstein deserves a bigger role based on past performance.

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5. Celtics’ Jalen Brown Drama & Offseason Possibilities (14:10 – 15:37)

• Jalen Brown’s Future:
  Brown’s social media gripes and odd comments (e.g., this being his “favorite season” after a first-round exit) raise red flags.
  • “I think it's possible [Brown is not on the Celtics next year]...he will never have more value in a trade situation.” (John Hollinger, 14:38)
  • Boston has a history of selling high and may consider such a move, driven more by cap limitations and roster balance than Brown’s mood.

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6. Giannis Potential Destinations & Trade Market (15:37 – 17:13)

• Giannis Sweepstakes:
  Various possibilities discussed, but Hollinger puts Miami as “the most likely destination”:
  • Miami’s mix of “assets and desperation” gives them an edge. He’s skeptical of OKC as a fit (“everything there is built around Shea”).
  • Miami with Giannis and Bam “could be a top-six team” but would still need more to challenge Boston or New York.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• "There's nowhere to hide a bad defender against them and it just took off."
  — John Hollinger on the Knicks’ offense (04:19)

• “Tanking was horrendous this year. There are eight different teams that were losing on purpose every single night...”
  — John Hollinger (09:35)

• “I think Miami is still the most likely destination [for Giannis]. They have the best combination of assets and desperation to do that.”
  — John Hollinger (16:05)

• “Okay, we just heard John say he's taking Oklahoma City for Game Five. What are you thinking now that you’ve gone through the show?”
  — Jason McIntyre setting up Cowherd’s pick (25:20)

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7. Post-Interview Roundtable: NBA, NFL, and Draft Talk (21:19 – 40:45)

NFL Interlude & Joe Burrow’s Branding Play (21:30 – 27:30)

• Colin and Rachel Nichols discuss:
  • Kyle Shanahan’s reminiscence about Brock Purdy becoming the 49ers’ starter in crisis (“I'm home that night not even thinking about what the game. I'm just like, we're down to our last quarterback.” – Shanahan, 22:06)
  • Concerns about the 49ers’ durability and playoff outlook
  • Joe Burrow’s advocacy for Bengals’ international games, recognizing its role in raising the team’s profile and recruiting potential

Popovich’s Leadership on the Young Spurs (23:36 – 25:20)

• Gregg Popovich’s direct approach after a tough loss emphasized “that's B.S., that's not how we play basketball” — players still respond to his legendary stature.

Betting, Knicks Reactions, & NBA Face of the League (25:20 – 27:41)

• Knicks’ betting angles, Colin’s cautious optimism on the Spurs game, and a humorous aside about the “face of the league” (Mahomes, not Jalen Hurts).

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8. Deep Dive with Jeff Goodman: Celtics Drama, Knicks’ Ascent, and NBA Draft (31:21 – 39:56)

• Celtics and Jaylen Brown:

  • Goodman emphasizes Brad Stevens is “hearing it” regarding Brown’s noise. “For a smart dude, they were dumb…completely tone deaf” (Goodman, 32:07)
  • Trading Brown would require a star (maybe Giannis), but raises health and fit concerns.

• Knicks “Nova Knicks” Identity:

  • Goodman (a Bostonian who “cannot hate this Knicks team”) lauds the group for both toughness and off-court personality, especially Jalen Brunson — lauded as “all about the right things.” Many, including Goodman himself, initially underestimated Brunson as a number one guy.

• Finals & Matchups:

  • Knicks could stretch either the Thunder or Spurs “to six or seven” but may lack the final punch against elite, healthy teams.

• NBA Draft Insights:

  • The debate for No. 1 pick: Goodman says Darren Peterson is the better player but notes “the biggest question mark…is competitiveness” while DeBonsa has “shown he's competitive.”
  • Cam Boozer: “Love him…[but] can he be a top 10 player in the NBA? I don’t think so. DeBonsa and Peterson have the higher potential.” (Goodman, 39:23)

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Timestamps for Key Segments

| Segment | Start – End | |-------------------------------------------|------------------| | Knicks’ playoff run & analysis | 03:25 – 05:11 | | Cavaliers’ cap logjam & LeBron scenario | 05:11 – 07:54 | | Spurs-Thunder preview, flopping debate | 07:54 – 12:06 | | Chet Holmgren/series prediction | 12:06 – 14:10 | | Celtics' Jalen Brown future | 14:10 – 15:37 | | Giannis trade speculation | 15:37 – 17:13 | | NFL: 49ers, Burrow, broader chat | 21:30 – 27:30 | | Spurs culture/Popovich's message | 23:36 – 25:20 | | Jeff Goodman on Celtics, Knicks, Draft | 31:21 – 39:56 |

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Summary Cheat Sheet

Main Stories:

• Knicks' historic dominance, smart coaching shifts
• Cavaliers’ limited options, possible coach swap, LeBron return a stretch
• Spurs-Thunder is a true toss-up, OKC’s new offensive challenges
• Flopping overhyped vs. tanking (which “ruined the season” for Hollinger)
• Celtics’ dilemma with Jaylen Brown, future trades possible
• Giannis’s next move: Miami is top suitor
• Goodman’s draft: Peterson is the better player but has competitive questions; Cam Boozer’s high floor, lower star ceiling

Tone/Style:
Candid, data-rich, with insider anecdotes and pointed takes—classic Herd.

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This summary covers all major themes and transitions for listeners who want the full picture, including quotes, expert opinions, and timestamped guides to dive deeper into any topic of interest.

Transcript

[Colin Cowherd]

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[Jason McIntyre]

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[Rachel Nichols]

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[Colin Cowherd]

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[Rachel Nichols]

to the herd podcast. Be sure to catch us live every weekday on Fox Sports Radio and noon to 3 Eastern, 9am to noon Pacific. Find your local station for the [e-mail] or stream us live every day on the iHeartRadio app by searching Fox Sports Radio or FSR.

[Jason McIntyre]

Let's get this party started.

[Jeff Goodman]

You're listening to FOX Sports Radio.

[Colin Cowherd]

Back here on the Herd. Let's welcome in a great NBA voice, John Hollinger, former front office guy in Memphis with the Grizzlies. Senior writer at the Athletic. John, how are you man? I like that jersey in the background. What is that?

[John Hollinger]

Thanks. That's the, that's the Hawks alternate jersey from this year.

[Colin Cowherd]

Ah, well spicy. All right, let's get started with, let's start with the Knicks actually. Unbelievable story. One of the great ones really that we've seen in sports this year. Knicks last year lose to the Pacers in the conference finals. Disappointment. They run it back with a different coach. Breakthrough. 11 straight wins. Incredible. They're in the finals for the first time this century. Your thoughts?

[John Hollinger]

Not just 11 straight wins, but the most dominant 11 game stretch in NBA history. Not just playoff history history in terms of the scoring margin over those 11 games. And it's also the best 10 game stretch. They actually had two different stretches that were the best 10 game stretch like 1 and 2 in this 11 game streak. So it's been, it's been a dominant, dominant stretch and they were down 2:1 here in Atlanta and you know there's talk of changing the starting lineup and Mike Brown obviously gets a lot of credit for that non move. And then once they shifted things offensively to put the ball in Karl Anthony Towns's hands more and kind of do more off ball cutting away from him. So it wasn't just the Jalen Brunson pound a thon from the, from the Thibodeau days. I think that just offensively it just made them so hard to guard. They just beat you in so many ways now there's, there's nowhere to hide a bad defender against them and it just took off. Now it's helped. I mean they are playing out of their minds in other ways too, like with the shooting and everything. But I mean right now, yeah, they are absolutely, absolutely a juggernaut and you can discount somewhat like the opponents they played maybe aren't as strong as those that would have faced in the West. But when you have this long a stretch that's this dominant against what are still very clearly like playoff quality teams, I mean that is a statement.

[Colin Cowherd]

Yeah. Now, normally, I wouldn't do an autopsy on the Cavs, but this was a bad beatdown. You had some curious quotes from the coach to the players. Obviously, James Harden was atrocious in all the elimination games this season. I'm just curious, do you foresee a big change in Cleveland? Maybe they just swap out the coach. Maybe they do one player out. Or do you see, hey, you know, we're just going to trade Donovan Mitchell and start over?

[John Hollinger]

Their hands are very tied financially because they're so locked in on so many big contracts right now. When you look at paying Mitchell and Mobley and Harden, who I think they're going to bring back, and Jared Allen, and so there's just not a lot of wiggle room there to do other things. The one thing that people are going to bring up is LeBron James, I'm sure. And even to do that, unless LeBron was going to come for the minimum, becomes very tricky for them to pull off. To cut enough salary to get below the first apron to do a sign and trade so that you can pay LeBron somewhere even remotely close to his market value. It becomes very tricky. They have to send out contracts just to do that. I mean, is there a scenario where they send out, like, Allen and Streuss and trade Schroeder somewhere else and then take in LeBron and he makes like, 25 or 30 or something? Yeah, maybe you could talk yourself into that. But it's just the cap dynamics are so hard for them that running it back is almost their only choice. Like, that's why. That's why they did Garland for Harden in the first place. It was the only thing they could do.

[Colin Cowherd]

So I wonder, we just saw the Knicks swap out Thibodeau for Mike Brown. Now, he wasn't their first choice. I think they were chasing memory serves. Jason Kidd, Michael Malone, um, I'm not exactly sure all the guys, but Mike Brown wasn't their first choice. Does Cleveland consider that?

[John Hollinger]

I think it's going to be something that's a little bit on the table. Yes. Just based on the history, you know, you hear. You hear word that. That Kenny was really the owner's call, not the GMs. And could they go. Could they go in a different direction now? I think they have to at least consider it. I mean, Kenny Atkinson overall has done a good job there. Right. He won 64 games with them a year ago, even though they lost. Even though they lost in five. They got to the conference finals this year, which. Which they hadn't been with this group before, but it's the only thing. There are two issues you run into. It's similar thing in New York last year where it's like this. The only thing you can change because you're so locked in with the roster in the cap rules at this point. And then the game one meltdown I think was a, was a pretty bad one for, for him. And so what kind of taste that leaves in everyone's mouth?

[Colin Cowherd]

Yeah. Up 22 to choke that away.

[Rachel Nichols]

Brutal.

[Colin Cowherd]

All right, let's go to tonight's game. Spurs Thunder A.J. mitchell out. They're saying J Dub is a game time decision, but I don't, I haven't heard anybody credible say that he's got a chance to play. His fourth hamstring injury this season. I'm just. It feels like the spurs are back in control. The line is dropping. Your thoughts on tonight's game?

[John Hollinger]

I think it's a true toss up. I think, you know, it looked after game three that OKC had this totally under control looked after game four like San Antonio did. I think that's just the ebb and flow of a, of a playoff series between relatively evenly matched teams. And I think that's what we have here. So I'm, I'm really excited to see what happens. I think Oklahoma City has to figure out how to adjust to the way San Antonio defended Shea last game where they weren't bringing the hard devils that they were coming kind of later and as he was more getting into his actual shot area and there's going to be three pointers open for Oklahoma City somewhere to take advantage of that. And they just have to figure out how to get the right lineups out there and the right people in the right spots to really maximize that.

[Colin Cowherd]

I gotta ask John. I did not think the tanking was a huge issue this season. I know people were upset, obviously, but you worked in a front office. You know the best path to turning things around is to tank and get good picks. And there's a great draft. But we're seeing flopping now being a way bigger issue than tanking. Every night after these games, the biggest stories are wembing Yama followed by did you see the 10 flops that SGA and company had? And they're stringing these videos together. They're getting 5, 10 million views. The league cannot be happy with this, this flopping issue. Do you think it's bigger than tanking?

[John Hollinger]

No, I totally disagree with you. First of all, tanking was horrendous this year it was bad. There are eight to eight different teams that were losing on purpose every single night for the last two months of the season. That takes away half your schedule and makes it unwatchable. As far as the flopping issue, SGA has been a magnet, it seems like for this. But this, this isn't. I don't think he's even the worst guy in the league by far. I don't even think he's, he's even the worst guy in his own team. Like, I think Lou Dort and Jalen Williams in their own way on defense are a lot worse. But the, the free throws aren't like a huge portion of his offense. He's not, he's not a guy who's like snapping his head back before anyone even hits him. Like James Harden did, for instance. He, I mean, yes, he, he does. The one thing he does do that I think you're showing in some of these clips. He does tend to crumple as he goes up for a jumper because I count him doing that six different times in game two especially was, was the most egregious one, I think. But on the other hand, like he, A lot of the other stuff he does, like he's just getting fouled. He's getting fouled because he's good, you know, and he gets fouled on these jumpers a lot because people have to crowd him so much or they're, they contested so hard because he's going to make it otherwise. So he just. It's kind of the same way that James Harden drew a lot of fouls in his prime on three point shots just because people had to be inside his jersey to contest it and so that they ended up crowding his landing space and getting fouls that way. So I think it's a, it's a lot of. To do about a pretty small thing, actually.

[Colin Cowherd]

Interesting. Okay. We had a writer on yesterday that speculated, hey, the same way they have technical fouls and you got to serve a one game suspension, maybe they look at, hey, you're flopping too much and if you flop 15 times, you got to have a one game suspension. I mean, I don't, I'm surprised you don't think it's that huge of a deal. But I don't know. You've been around the league very long.

[John Hollinger]

They had, I mean, they have a rule in place for, to do technical foul for an egregious flop, which they never call. They have a rule in place to do, to do fines for kind of egregious flops, which these don't really qualify as because the rule for being fined for flopping is what they call STEM criteria. And it's secondary. So like after the first kind of action, if you continue theatrical. And I'm trying to remember what the E and the M are, but basically it's like, it's when you do the whole to do and flail your arms and like end up three rows in the crowd, which isn't really what Shea or most of these guys are doing.

[Colin Cowherd]

Interesting. All right, what about Chet Holmgren? He's taken some heat here for having a brutal series. He was excellent against the Lakers. It's one thing to go up against Jackson Hayes and deandre Ayton and now Wembanyama's keeping him out of the paint. Some of the number. I think he's shooting 46% from the field. This is a guy who was just a dunking machine most of the season. Third team, all NBA. Can he turn it around in the series?

[John Hollinger]

Yeah. I think there's two interesting things going on with Chad. One, I think they're reluctant to play him at five against. Against this team. And so he's been out on the perimeter more because if you look, they'll start Hartenstein and they'll bring in Jalen Williams with a. Yeah. And so Chad is usually the four in those alignments. And the, the other thing is that not only has he not been able to get to the rim as much because of Wemby's presence, he takes so long to load up his three point shot that he's been run off the line pretty easily by these San Antonio defenders. And I think that's the other area that that's really hurt them is that they use him as a floor spacer too. And he just is getting into. His motion is slow enough that he hasn't really been threatening enough to open the floor for them.

[Colin Cowherd]

Interesting. Why do you think he's reluctant to play the five? Is this like an Anthony Davis thing? I don't want to bang with the big boys. I just want to, you know, take my joke.

[John Hollinger]

It's not, it's not his reluctance. It's the coaching staff. I mean, they, they look at him and his size and weight and everything and. And I don't. I don't think they like that.

[Colin Cowherd]

Interesting. Do you have a pick for tonight or you not want to get involved in that?

[John Hollinger]

That's fine.

[Colin Cowherd]

I totally understand.

[John Hollinger]

I would. I mean, Oklahoma City's at home. I would probably make them a slight favorite. I'M a little worried about them offensively without, I presume J. Williams will end up not playing. And I, I think like finding secondary shot creators is going to be an issue for them. They turned to Aaron Wiggins the other night to try to get some of that. He wasn't very good. Caruso, as good as he's been, has really been more making, making plays off somebody else, making a play off the catch. I, I do think they need to give Hartenstein a little more run. He made four floaters over Victor in the, in the first quarter and then we kind of didn't see him again the other night.

[Colin Cowherd]

Interesting. All right, let's go with a Jalen Brown real quick in Boston. He keeps going on twitch and complaining about stuff. Very strange. The media doesn't like me. The fans don't like me. This is my favorite season in Boston, right after you lose in the first round. Now, I know Boston wouldn't want to break up him and Tatum because they just won a championship a few years ago. They had another great season, but something seems off here. Do you think there's any world where Brown is not on the Celtics after this season?

[John Hollinger]

I think it's possible. Just when you look at his contract and the constraints of the second apron, and that was basically what forced Boston to do all the things they did this past offseason, which hurt them enough, that, that's, that's in a roundabout way, like that's how they ended up losing to Philly. Right. And so when you look at the numbers on his contract and his age, he will never have more value in a trade situation. So there's a scenario where, I mean, Boston was willing to sell high on Marcus Smart, for instance. They've been able, they've been willing to do that in other situations. So I would not rule that one out. I will say, I mean, Jalen Brown's always sort of been like this. Like, this is not new information to anyone from Boston. I don't think so. I don't think that really plays into it as much as. But just the, the overall cap scenario that they're in and where he is in his career. Yeah, I could definitely see them trying to sell high on him.

[Colin Cowherd]

And last one, the Giannis race continually evolving. I still think there's a world where if the Thunder loses series, they get very involved with Giannis just because they've got so many picks in the future and they don't have roster spots. Do you think there's a. I mean, does Cleveland say, hey, Mobley, for Giannis and whatever. Do the Lakers. We had someone come on yesterday talk about the Lakers having a shot. I know there's a world where he stays with the Bucks. I don't know. Clippers, do they get involved? What do you got, John?

[John Hollinger]

I think Miami is still the most likely destination. They have the best combination of assets and desperation to do that. I don't. I don't see Oklahoma City make making a move for Giannis. I just don't see them kind of short circuiting what they have. And everything there is built around Shea right now, and they're not going to turn and build it around Giannis. And I think that that would actually be a hard adjustment for Giannis that way. Whereas Miami sort of. He'd be able to come in. It would be him and Bam and they'd be a pretty good fit together. And it just seems to make more sense to me. So if I had to put. If I had to put a dollar on one team, I would. I would say Miami.

[Colin Cowherd]

Interesting. Do you think that's where he would sign long term there, given it's him and Bam and then everything else is out the door. Are they. Is that even much of an upgrade from Milwaukee?

[John Hollinger]

I do think it's an upgrade for Milwaukee situation. Yes. But to get. To get that team to the upper reaches of the east, like, can they be in the top six? Absolutely. Can they beat Boston or New York in a playoff series with just Giannis and Bam? No. So there'd still be a lot of work to do on the back end of the roster in Miami.

[Colin Cowherd]

All right. John Hollinger, the athletic. Great stuff. Former NFL front office guy. All right, thank John. Enjoy the summer.

[John Hollinger]

All right, thank you.

[Colin Cowherd]

Yeah. Be sure to catch live editions of the Herd, weekdays at noon Eastern, 9am Pacific, on Fox Sports Radio, FS1 and the iHeartRadio app.

[Jeff Goodman]

This is Rob Parker and I'm here with an important public service announcement.

[Colin Cowherd]

Whatever you do, do not listen to

[Jeff Goodman]

the Paulie and Tony Fusco show. Fox Sports Radio asked me to do a promo, but I'm here to do a no Mo, as in don't listen to this show. No Mo, the host of two fools from Philly who have the dumbest takes

[John Hollinger]

ever in all of sports talk.

[Colin Cowherd]

And, you know, if I'm saying that,

[Jeff Goodman]

they must really be bad. I have no idea why FOX Sports Radio picked this up, but I know where to put it down in the trash can. So please don't listen to the Paulie and Tony Fusco show.

[Colin Cowherd]

No way, no how.

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for the show comes from public. If you look at your investing app, what do you see? An Interface stuck in 1997 or something that looks modern but feels more like a casino than a place to build wealth. Public is is different. It's the investing platform for those who take it seriously. On public, you can build your portfolio for the long haul. Stocks, options, bonds, crypto. It's all there. But what really makes public different is the technology behind it. Imagine starting your day with an AI summarized market briefing, getting clear summaries of earnings calls the moment they end, or turning any idea into an investable index just by typing a prompt. This is what investing looks like when the tools finally catch up. Go to public.com and earn a 1% uncapped match when you transfer your portfolio. Public Investing for those who take it seriously Ad paid for by Public Holdings Brokerage Services by Public Investing Member FINRA SIPC Advisory Services By Public Advisors SEC Registered Advisor Crypto Services By 0/ all investing involves risk of loss. See complete [e-mail] disclosures good stuff.

[Colin Cowherd]

Interesting analysis from Hollinger. Let's go to Rachel Nichols with the news.

[John Hollinger]

No, no, no, turn on the news.

[Colin Cowherd]

This is the Herd line news.

[Jason McIntyre]

All right, let's start with the NFL here. Jason Kyle Shanahan, head coach of the 49ers, has been talking lately about his reminiscence of when Brock Purdy came into his life. You know that Miami game when Brock stepped in and they knew, okay, this might be our guy. And you remember the situation there. They lost Jimmy Garoppolo in that game. That's why Brock stepped in there. And they had already had Trey Lance with the season ending injury. He was the Week one starter. And it's really interesting to hear Shanahan go through his mindset as the game went on. And then later that night, take a listen.

[Public Investing Advertiser]

I'm home that night not even thinking about what the game.

[Colin Cowherd]

I'm just like, we're down to our last quarterback.

[John Hollinger]

We have such a good team.

[Public Investing Advertiser]

And I was and then once I stopped thinking about him laying in bed, I'm like, holy, he played unbelievable tonight. He's always been good in practice, but like what he just came into and

[John Hollinger]

some of the stuff that Flores put

[Public Investing Advertiser]

at him and the way just the

[John Hollinger]

style of what he did was different.

[Public Investing Advertiser]

And I remember coming to work that Monday just like we got a shot and doesn't look like it, but we might be playing with our best guy

[Colin Cowherd]

now and it showed.

[Jason McIntyre]

I love that. It's like you and your wife remembering your first date. I mean, look, the 49ers made some upgrades this season, right? Future hall of Famer Mike Evans, they brought in Christian Kirk. They definitely bulked up the defense a little bit. Where do you see them shaking out in the NFC especially? I mean, the NFC west alone is such a tough division.

[Colin Cowherd]

I mean, the schedule's a gauntlet. The amount of travel, I think it's Number one in NFL history, given the international. It's just losing Salah defensively is a big one. I don't know. I don't think they're as good as the Rams or Seahawks in the West. And then you've got the Bears, you've got the Eagles. Are they fifth? Are they sixth? Can you tell me Trent Williams and CMAC are going to be healthy? I don't know. I can see a world where they miss the playoffs.

[Public Investing Advertiser]

Rachel.

[Jason McIntyre]

Wow. All right. I mean, look, I'm with you. I keep hearing people be like, and Christian McCaffrey is going to be back. And I'm like, for how long?

[Colin Cowherd]

Like, 400 touches. Come on.

[Jason McIntyre]

We'll see. All right, back to basketball. Spurs legend Greg Popovich made his presence felt several times throughout this series. We saw Pop at the airport talking to Wemby. That was the last series after that elbow to Nas Reed. And then coming out of this last game, Darren Fox revealed what Pop did after that disastrous Game 3 that the spurs had.

[Jeff Goodman]

Pop's been around, like, throughout the course

[Colin Cowherd]

of the season, but that was the first time he walked into the locker

[Public Investing Advertiser]

room and was like, nah, that's.

[Colin Cowherd]

That's B.S. that's not how we play basketball. And obviously he has some choice words

[John Hollinger]

for it, but that was the first

[Colin Cowherd]

time all season that he came into the locker room right after a game and told us how he felt.

[Jeff Goodman]

And everybody felt that.

[Jason McIntyre]

See, what's interesting about that to me is they're a very young team, right? And in a lot of places, a very young team might be like, why is this old man yelling at me? Exactly. What's up with that? But these players, they all know how legendary Pop has been. I mean, obviously, Dylan Harper grew up with his dad talking about that sort of thing, and even Wemby over in France, because Tony Parker was on the Spurs. He was in love with the spurs and Pop and everything about that, you know, mini dynasty. And the idea that he could get Pop as his coach was a huge thing to him going in the draft. You heard him outright say when the draft lottery happened, I hope it's the spurs, which, you know, not a lot of prospects are like, I hope I go to San Antonio. But he really listens when Gregg Popovich talks. So I don't know. They've got the Pop yelling advantage. They got the NBA advantage. They got a little momentum, if you believe in that. We just heard John say he's taking Oklahoma City for game five. What are you thinking? What are you thinking now that you've Gone through the show.

[Colin Cowherd]

I'm all in the spurs, baby. I'm not betting this one. This is not a bet like the Knicks last night. You could lay the lumber on that one, if anything. Spurs, money line. I think they win this.

[Jason McIntyre]

All right. All right. Did you make any money off the Knicks bet last night?

[Colin Cowherd]

No comment.

[Jason McIntyre]

Okay. I'm just saying I had to imagine they were pretty heavy favorites.

[Colin Cowherd]

No, they were two and a half point favorites. Really?

[Jason McIntyre]

That's it.

[Colin Cowherd]

They won. Covered by 25.

[Jeff Goodman]

Yeah.

[Jason McIntyre]

Yeah. See, I'm not allowed to bet on the NBA because I'm a voter.

[Colin Cowherd]

That's right.

[Jason McIntyre]

I'll just, you know, have to watch you flourish. There you go. All right, back to football. Bengals quarterback Joe Burrow. Look, he's been digging in on the NFL's effort to grow the game internationally. Remember, he was a key part of that flag football game at SoFi, which was to gin up interest for the Olympics. Right. In their flag football they're going to play there. He's lobbied for an international game, and it's interesting. The reason why, yes, you know, he wants to help the league and be a face of the league, but also there's this very. Can he reason? Take a listen. Oh, all right. It's me. He said. I would say early ish in my career, the first couple years, when you saw how the league pushes certain teams and they put certain teams in big spots when they do what they do, studying that and the teams that are in those positions year in and year out, there's a reason for that. And that's a position I wanted the Bengals to be in. I thought that was super interesting, Jason, because it's very smart. Right. If you get the Bengals talked about as one of the NFL's, like, big teams, which they certainly weren't when he came in there, then they're more of a free agent destination. Then fans think of them differently. Then there's more confidence on the roster. I love that.

[Colin Cowherd]

I would agree. I'm bullish on the Bengals this year. I think Burrow just wants to play international, to expand his, you know, fashion empire. He's the catwalk kind of guy. And, you know, he's already big in Fashion Week and I expand globally. Right. Build the Joe Burrow brand.

[Jason McIntyre]

I mean, that's very. It's very small. He's thinking bigger. He's thinking bigger.

[Colin Cowherd]

Bigger than Cincinnati.

[Apple Card Advertiser]

Yeah, exactly.

[Jason McIntyre]

I don't know who's the face of the league right now to you.

[Colin Cowherd]

Jalen Hurt. No, just kidding. Probably Patrick Mahomes. Right.

[Jason McIntyre]

Still I mean, I mean, after this

[Colin Cowherd]

past year, I can't give it to Josh Allen. He hasn't won yet.

[Jason McIntyre]

All right. All right.

[Colin Cowherd]

Rachel with the news.

[Jeff Goodman]

Well, that's the news.

[Jason McIntyre]

And thanks for stopping by.

[Colin Cowherd]

The Herd lie news.

[Jeff Goodman]

Oh, boy.

[Colin Cowherd]

Coming up next, Jeff Goodman stops by Boston guy. He'll talk Jaylen Brown and also the number one pick to debate. He knows debonce very well. We'll see if he's buying the Darren Peterson hype. That's next. Be sure to catch live editions of the Herd, weekdays at noon Eastern, 9am Pacific.

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[Rachel Nichols]

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It's smart to always have a few financial goals and a really smart one. You can set earning cash back on what you buy every day. And with discovery you can get this Discover automatically matches all the cash back you've earned at the end of your first year Seriously. All of it. And we trust you to make smart decisions. I mean, after all, you listen to this show. See [e-mail] credit card support for the

[Public Investing Advertiser]

show comes from public. If you look at your investing app, what do you see? An Interface stuck in 1997 or something that looks modern but feels more like a casino than a place to build. Build wealth. Public is different. It's the investing platform for those who take it seriously. On public, you can build your portfolio for the long haul. Stocks, options, bonds, crypto. It's all there. But what really makes public different is the technology behind it. Imagine starting your day with an AI summarized market briefing, getting clear summaries of earnings calls the moment they end. Or turning any idea into an investable index just by typing a prompt. This is what investing looks like when the tools finally catch up. Go to public.com and earn a 1% uncapped match when you transfer your portfolio. Public Investing for those who take it seriously AD paid for by Public Holdings Brokerage services by Public Investing Member FINRA SIPC Advisory Services by Public Advisors SEC Registered Advisor Crypto Services by ZeroHash all investing involves risk of loss. See complete [e-mail] disclosures

[Colin Cowherd]

back here on the Herd so I've known Jeff Goodman a long time. He covered college basketball. He knows the draft as well as anybody. Big Boston guy. So he knows the Celtics. I think this Jaylen Brown topic's going to be fun. Let's bring him in. Jeff Goodman, just a great reporter when it comes to basketball, knows the sport well. Jeff, listen, I'm not saying I'm team Jason Tatum or anything, but I do think Jaylen Brown's made enough noise here with his twitch nonsense. I had my best. That was my favorite season. You know, Tatum wasn't there. You lose in the first round. Really? Winning a championship wasn't better. You were the finals of mvp. Final of the finals. So I don't. What do you make of this? Do you think Brad Stevens is hearing it or. Hey, it's the off season. This is much ado about nothing.

[Jeff Goodman]

No, no, Brad is definitely hearing it. And Brad knows they need to make a move anyway. I don't know if it's going to be a Jalen Brown move, but certainly they've got to upgrade their team. I mean, Nemes Kater and Sam House are starting to is not good enough to win a an NBA title. He knows that. He Brad Stevens is smarter than you, me and everybody else out there. So he. He knows what's going on here, the question is, like you said, you know, Jalen Brown's comments, they're just. For a smart dude, they were dumb. I mean, it just like, they were just tone deaf. Completely tone deaf when you say that. And, you know, to me, again, it's just showing your lack of respect for your teammates when you're saying that and that you'd rather have this great individual year. And even if you don't mean it, that's what it came across as, that you'd rather have this year where you were the guy, instead of a year where you want an NBA title, being probably more of the number two. But you were still the mvp, last I checked, of the Finals.

[Colin Cowherd]

Yeah. And he even. And again, I like Jaylen Brown. A very smart guy, articulate, but, like, just to be unhappy with a. You know, the fans in the media don't like me. That's why I wasn't first team, all NBA. Like, dude, you were. You were almost everybody's MVP ballot. Okay, great player. I. I just don't know how far they take this. Do you think they just say, hey, one of those teams with a top six pick in the draft. And, you know, this draft is stacked. Yeah, we'll rebuild and. And get off. Get off some contract that is going to be ugly for Jalen Brown moving forward.

[Jeff Goodman]

I don't think you can do that. I think in order to trade Jalen Brown, you have to get a star back. And, you know, to me, it's. It's Giannis, if you can get him. But I am worried about, you know, Giannis's health. Like Jalen Brown has been, you know, a guy that's been on the court most games, and I'll give him credit. And I was. I was critical of Jaylen Brown years ago and said they should trade him, you know, four or five years ago, when it looked like again, at the time, before Ime Adoka got there, it looked like for a while that Jayson Tatum and Jaylen Brown had never played basketball together. And to be honest, when Tatum came back this year, it kind of looked that way again. Kind of looked like they forgot. They forgot the synergy that they finally figured out. So I think, you know, you got to look at the options to move them, but I would be worried a little bit about Giannis and just the age and the health.

[Colin Cowherd]

Yeah, for sure. All right, let's go to the Knicks, the Nova Knicks, as we're calling them. Unbelievable playoff run. I said yesterday they were the greatest team in franchise history. Got a little bit of pushback. They haven't won a title. Well, I don't know that Patriots team, you know them well, that was undefeated with Brady. They're universally regarded as one of the best teams ever. They didn't win the super bowl. But this Knicks team is an awesome story. Brunson taking less money so that OG can get paid and they can afford Cat, just your thoughts on this, on this nix team.

[Jeff Goodman]

I'm a Bostonian, right? I've been born to hate New York teams. Hate them. I cannot hate this Knicks team. I know them too well. I covered these guys at Villanova and they're the funniest part of them is. And I joke with Jalen Brunson about this all the time. Like he was a robot and they were robots. When they're at Villanova, they showed no personality zero. And now you see them and it's so much fun to watch them. Obviously in their podcast with, with Brunson and Josh Hart and they poke fun at each other and, and whatnot. But they are all business when it gets down to being on the court. And that's the thing about Jalen Brunson. Everybody question, myself included. I thought they probably overpaid for him when they, when they brought him in. And I wasn't sure if he could be the number one guy on an NBA title contending team. But you can't measure this dude's intangibles, his leadership. I mean, there's a reason he won two, two college titles with Villanova. One of the few guys to be able to do that again. Like this dude is all about the right things and he's. And he's more talented than people think.

[Colin Cowherd]

I totally agree. I know there's the narrative out there. Well, the tier one of players and the Knicks don't have one. You're right. I don't know why the. I don't know if it's hate, but the disrespect to Brunson. You got the Becky Hammond comments about a small guard. A lot of people were in the boat with you thinking they overpaid, but he's shown them, like, listen, I don't care if it's Edgecomb.

[Jason McIntyre]

I don't care.

[Colin Cowherd]

Dyson Daniels, I could cook anybody. Now the spurs, we'll see how he goes does going up against Castle and Harper and those guys. But do you give them a chance against the spurs or Thunder?

[Jeff Goodman]

Yeah, I think they can. They could take it to six or seven. I don't know if they beat either one of them. I mean, Again, I just think it depends on OKC's health.

[John Hollinger]

Right.

[Jeff Goodman]

I mean, obviously that's going to be the key for the Thunder and whether they can even get there. Can they get healthy quick enough here? Obviously, they're missing Jalen Williams and San Antonio. You're right. Like those guards and especially Castle. I said a few years ago I thought he should have been the number one pick in that draft, but he's just, he's so elite as a defender. That's the biggest thing about Steph Castle is like he can guard anybody. And again, like, he's bigger, he's stronger, he's more athletic than Brunson. Brunson. I mean, it's been easy for him in this series. Let's face it, like, Cleveland's defense, perimeter defense is a complete joke.

[Colin Cowherd]

Yeah, they'll put Wemby on Josh Hart and we'll, we'll see how that goes. I want to end with the NBA draft. You know, everybody's thought DeBonsa was going to be the guy for a while, and then Darren Peterson's come out and told his side of the story, if you will. I know you're close with both. Both guys, you know, both situations. I, I think Peterson's going to go one, Jeff. I don't know. I love Devonsa, but I have this feeling Peterson's going to go 1. Where are you right now? As we're still, you know, four weeks away from the draft.

[Jeff Goodman]

I mean, we could spend 20 minutes on this one and going through it all. And again, I'm a Boston guy, but a couple of years ago, I actually said Darren Peterson. I thought he was the number one player in the country, but we didn't see the Darren Peterson this year. As you mentioned, the full body cramps in the preseason. His dad really screwed the whole thing up PR wise this year, to be honest. He should have got his story out there earlier. He didn't, and I think it hurt him. A lot of people were critical of him. I think he's the better player. But I also think if you're, if you're Washington right now, I don't think you can afford to take a huge risk. And right now, as talking to people in the NBA closest situation, the biggest question mark they have of Darren Peterson right now isn't whether, like, he'll be healthy or not. It's the competitiveness. It's the competitiveness. And when you start questioning that, that's tough to take him number one over another guy who's shown he's competitive. But he's put up numbers head to head against debates. Yeah, AJ has been really good. And again, this draft is so loaded. I haven't seen a draft this deep in the top 10, maybe ever since I've been covering this 25 years ago.

[Colin Cowherd]

We got about 30 seconds left, Cam. Boozer, do you think he gets in the discussion for one, or are you not as high on him? The athletic stuff kind of sort of is a big deal. There's a report. Hey, the Thunder interested in trading up for him. Your thoughts on Boozer?

[Jeff Goodman]

Love him, love him, love him, love him. Best college player. Love him because he plays hard, comes to play every single game. But again, can he be a top 10 player in the NBA? I don't think so. I think DeBonta and Peterson have the potential. The ceiling is a lot higher, but you know what? It's higher to Cambruiser's floor. That kid is going to do it every game. And he'll fit with Zach Eady in Memphis really, really well.

[Colin Cowherd]

Yeah, it sounds like he is Memphis bound. All right, Jeff Goodman, keep up the good work, man. Good talking to you. Definitely looking forward to your draft stuff.

[Jeff Goodman]

Thanks, Jason. Always good, man.

[Colin Cowherd]

Yeah, Jeff Goodman really plugged in. It's interesting. Yeah, he's a Boston guy. Debons, obviously from that area. Boy, this draft. Listen, we're on a basketball heater right now, and that's why Rachel and I are getting tabbed to come off the bench for Cowherd because she's a hoops person. I. I obviously love hoops. I mean, this game tonight is going to be massive. And then you got the finals, hopefully Spurs, Knicks, and then you got the draft. Rachel, it's a good run.

[Jason McIntyre]

I mean, I was surprised you didn't put yourself in the list of best prospects, considering how much you talk about your rec team.

[Jeff Goodman]

Wow.

[Colin Cowherd]

Wow. Best prospects. Oh, my gosh. All right, listen. Hey, great show today. We got a banger tomorrow. Obviously, the huge soccer announcement coming up right after this show. The USA roster. I cannot wait to break that down tomorrow. The guest list is off the hook. We'll see you then.

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[Colin Cowherd]

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[Jeff Goodman]

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[Colin Cowherd]

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[Jason McIntyre]

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[Rachel Nichols]

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[Colin Cowherd]

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